The Death Of Gaming

[Lucerin Red]

Here's that article I've been talking about writing for the past month. I finally got it finished and I hope that you all can appreciate it. But most of all I'd like your feedback. I'm trying to spread this as far as I can, because I believe in everything that I've written in this article. And it's our job as gamers to control the market, and lead it in the way that we believe. Without further adue, I present:

http://thedeathofgaming.blogspot.com/

[phil_]

It's a nice sounding article, Lucerin. I'm sure you'll get a lot of angry responses. I can't say much more than that, as I have reliable way of verifying what you wrote.

It's kinda funny that you have a "Free" Xbox 360 link in your sig, considering the message of your article.

[Azisien]

Overall, the article is pretty good. I winced a bit when I saw emoticons and over-emphasis (OH MY GOD HUZZAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!??!!!!!!!!!!!). Other than that, fairly well written.

Content wise, instead of launching a 5 page rant to give my responses to the points presented in the article, I'll just say I heavily disagree with almost everything you had to say. Which means I lightly agreed with a few things.

And I'm a 'heavy' gamer, too.

[Krylo]

I have to agree with Azisien. Most of his points just describe the buisness model of ANY company that wants to make money.

The only thing I really feel the need to comment on directly is his hypocrisy bit: Haven't people been saying ever since the beginning of this that companies need to smarten up and start USING downloads and what have you to make money instead of being stupid and trying to stomp it out? So then, when one of them does just this, why are we trying to call them hypocrits. They've just realized what they were doing was stupid and not stopping the pirating while costing them money. By playing into the 'pirates' they make money off of them instead of losing money trying to stop them. It's called being smart.

[The_Bear]

That's a pretty good article you've got there, Lucerin. I agree with a lot of what you said, especially about how Sony and Microsoft aren't concentrating on the games. I've felt this way ever since the Xbox was released. You also have a nice historical reference and a sort of a "those who don't learn from history are doomed to reapeat it" moral around it.

Some things I didn't like about your article was the use of caps. They overexaggerated your point and kind of make you seem desperate and unprofesional. Same goes with the smilies. I only saw one (which was split by a paragraph), and it just kind of made an awkward pause where you really had some good points going. Other than that, very well done.

Just as a side note to Azisien, thank you for not ranting or insulting Lucerin for having an opinion different than your own. It's nice to see a fellow gamer control their pride and act maturely.

[In Hindsight]

That's a pretty good article you've got there, Lucerin. I agree with a lot of what you said, especially about how Sony and Microsoft aren't concentrating on the games.

One thought:

Sony and Microsoft don't really need to concern themselves with the games, because there's a tremendous amount of third-parties that can take care of that for them. Instead, if they focus their energies on broadening the applications of their hardware, they can (At least, in theory) generate even more revenue from other channels. All while raking in staggering amounts of money on software royalties from the aforementioned third parties, who exist solely for the purpose of creating and publishing games. They're certainly not going anywhere, and all of the major companies will still retain exclusive developers to some extent.

To sum it up, my point is that even if the manufacturers of the systems aren't focusing on games as much, there's a billion other people out there that are still 100% centered on them. Gaming isn't going anywhere, at least not anytime in the forseeable future.

[Lucerin Red]

It's kinda funny that you have a "Free" Xbox 360 link in your sig, considering the message of your article. I completely forgot about that, lol, thanks. it's gone now.

Content wise, instead of launching a 5 page rant to give my responses to the points presented in the article, I'll just say I heavily disagree with almost everything you had to say. Which means I lightly agreed with a few things.
if you want to retort, please feel free to, i do enjoy discussions about said topic.

Most of his points just describe the buisness model of ANY company that wants to make money. but it doesn,t make it right. there are plenty of companies that work the right way and are succesful and strengthen the integrity of the market. The best example is Google. All that google does is put out free quality product that we do nothing but benifit from and that success has been proven with them now being worth $80b. That,s worth more than TimeWarner

quote] why are we trying to call them hypocrits. [/quote] The way they behave is like when someone gets caught doing something wrong and they foss up and say they are sorry, but don't really mean it. That they are just saying I'm sorry because it gets them out of trouble. If Sony had presented it in a way that didn, make them seem like it was anything but an entirely profit based move. I'd be ok with it. But it wasn't. It was purely in the interest of money thath they took this course of action.

thanks for the input, I've got to catch some Z's. Someone who also agree's with me in a lot of areas is this guy (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/crash.html) but if you did like my article make sure to share it with your friends

[Krylo]

In any case, I must say that with nearly all the games that have come out in the last three years, not a single one has had a plot like the old games. They have all been about either:
A: Big breasted women, hack and slash
B: Big breasted, scantaly clad adventurous women.....any game
or C: Good Plot, Fully naked women - God of WarBecause the plot in DMCIII sucked and there were lots of women in it. Because all the women in FFX had any scantily clad adenventurous women. Because Silent Hill II, Scion of Time, Contra: Shattered Soldier, Wind Waker, Katamari Damacy, Mercenaries, Four Swords, The Eye Toy games (any of them), Dark Cloud, Wild Arms III, or Metroid Prime are anything like that... and those are just the games I own (and not even all of them) that I could think of off the top of my head.

Cynicism is only cool when it's not completely blind and unfounded.

but it doesn,t make it right.But it DOES make it silly to think the video game industry will be different from any other industry in this regard. To get indignant over it only shows a degree of naivette beyond that of the average person. It's a small miracle that Nintendo isn't like this... but Nintendo has plenty of its own problems, mostly relating to them not caring about money TOO much (to the point of not listening to the market very well).

It was purely in the interest of money thath they took this course of action.If a company starts doing things outside the interest of money, I'll start to worry about that company's future.

For now, I say that their reasons for changing what they've done is unimportant next to the fact that they have changed. Blasting them for it is detrimental to what we all want: The RIAA to shut up, sit back, and make money off pirates instead of suing them. If Sony succeeds at this, there's a good chance the rest of the RIAA members will look at it and realize, finally, that there's a lot of money to be made here.

[Lucerin Red]

But it DOES make it silly to think the video game industry will be different from any other industry in this regard. I'm not talking directly to the businesses there' and i understand that those companies are going to exist. But I'm talking to the consumer here. We do control what we buy. And if enough of us start to band together then the corporations do listen to us. The moment we as consumers realize our power is the day we control the market. And I say it's about time to do that. It may be a pain in th ass sometimeo. But the second I find myself disagreeing with the way a company runs itself, or if its something that goes over the limit, I stop purchasing their products. I myself am not going to make a difference, but if others who feel the same band together then we can. and it's about time we do.

[kratos]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/02/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm?cnn=yes

Miyamoto has yet to steer his company wrong.

[In Hindsight]

I'm not talking directly to the businesses there' and i understand that those companies are going to exist. But I'm talking to the consumer here. We do control what we buy. And if enough of us start to band together then the corporations do listen to us. The moment we as consumers realize our power is the day we control the market. And I say it's about time to do that. It may be a pain in th ass sometimeo. But the second I find myself disagreeing with the way a company runs itself, or if its something that goes over the limit, I stop purchasing their products. I myself am not going to make a difference, but if others who feel the same band together then we can. and it's about time we do.

Here's a thought, instead of concerning yourself with X company's business practices, just buy the games you like.

I hate to sound like a dick, but your philosophy of not supporting companies with whom you disagree is a rather unrealistic one. If you truly had a clear view of what goes on in every corporation out there, and how they treat their employees... With ideals like yours, you should probably be living in a shack out in the middle of nowhere, as far away from modern society and convenience as possible (Also, the shack would probably have to be 100% from scratch, hand-crafted by you, using tools also made from scratch by yourself in order to stay true to your ideals)

Whether you'd like to admit it or not, all corporations and businesses operate in order to generate more profit, by whatever means they feel are necessary. That comes above the well-being of their employees, and I'm sure in many cases 'ethical' business practices as well.

[Lucerin Red]

Whether you'd like to admit it or not, all corporations and businesses operate in order to generate more profit, by whatever means they feel are necessary. That comes above the well-being of their employees, and I'm sure in many cases 'ethical' business practices as well. Operating to generate a profit isn't a problem for me, it's dishonorable operating that I have a problem with. Business is in my family. My Dad owns an extremely successful locksmithing company which he built from the ground up. And he runs it to make a profit, but he doesn't cheat his employees or customers. He treats them with respect and does his best to do so.

Corporate Sleaze does penetrate most every business. But it's letting it control the corporation that I can't stand. I'll be the first to say that while I heavily support Nintendo, they're not perfect, and they've made their mistakes as a company. And they're not the 100% ideal company that I want them to be. But they do the best they can, they try to not let that corporate "it's all about the $$, any which way you can get it" have a strong foothold in their company. The same with google. Look at how many times they've been slandered and told they were going to fall by corporations like microsoft, and now they're sitting on top.

And you're right, I don't have a clear view of what goes on in every corporation that I see. And I'm sure that in many companies theres a lot that I don't know about. But that doesn't mean that I should give up on my ideals and beliefs. I stand true to what I say with the hope and intent that others will follow, and together we can shape the market that we want. To give up hope is death. I don't over evaluate companies. But I do pay attention, one little mistake here and there isn't going to cause me to banish them from my presence, but a continuous track record will.

I'm going to the best job that I can to keep my ideals, and everyone should keep this practice. because supporting companies that we know participate in these activities only further encourages it. And that's something I can never condone

[Krylo]

Miyamoto has yet to steer his company wrong.Except for when he alienated most every third party with over-bearing censorship rules and forcing all the games to go through Nintendo 'quality testing', thus causing them to all jump ship as soon as they heard Nintendo was going to have a serious competitor (Sony) for the next generation. I'd say that was a pretty big 'oops' for Nintendo. A pretty big arrogant one.

They've gone about correcting such things since, by making their new system the most developer friendly and dropping the excess quality controls.

But, if we're going to go by Lucerin's standards, that's hypocritical. They're only doing it because they've taken a huge hit to their market share, and they still talk about being 'the family system' while branching into adult markets.

So in short: Every company works for money. Every company changes positions that they find harmful to their ability to make money (given that it doesn't go too far against company policy). Even Nintendo. Sony and Microsoft are just better at it.

And, why, praytell, does sticking a DVD player into a game system make it worse at playing games? It's not splitting its resources between DVD playing or video game playing.

Also: it doesn't raise the price when Sony and Microsoft do this. Or rather, it doesn't raise the price for US. Sony and Microsoft both sell their consoles at significant losses hoping to make all of it up in software royalties.

In other words, their diversifying their systems isn't necessarily bad. We're getting a lot of things we would have to pay far more for (the motherboard alone would rate around 2k).

It's not necessarily good either, because they're losing their focus as game systems... but then, if gaming no longer becomes their primary function they'll eventually start to suck at running games compared to more game orientated companies (Nintendo) and will slowly die out.

The market handles itself well enough when it comes to quality products. It's not something we have to consciously worry about.

[Lucerin Red]

I'm not saying that adding a dvd player instantly makes it worse, but yeah it does raise the price. Sony still makes money off of the PS2, the PS2 could have launched at $200 if it wasn't for the DVD player

[Krylo]

The PS3 (which is what I was addressing) however, has a processor which, alone, is worth more than the entire system sells for, so adding things onto it doesn't increase price to the consumer, at least not appreciably, as that Sony is already selling at a considerable loss.

[Kikuichimonji]

Still, an extra (at the very freaking least) $20 trench for each PS3 sale is no walk in the park. If 1 mil consoles are made (just a number for example), that's an extra $20 mil that they're counting on making up for in game sales. That's a relatively large number - it's no small thing even for a giant like Sony. Obviously it's not gonna cripple the console, but I highly doubt that many people buy a console because it has a DVD player. At most, that would be the tiebreaker. And the PS3 is so widely different from other consoles that anyone who's buying it should be a firm supporter of it - from what I've seen, most people are either skeptical or enthusiastic about the cell processor, so either crowd wouldn't be swayed by a poor-quality DVD player.

[In Hindsight]

I'm not saying that adding a dvd player instantly makes it worse, but yeah it does raise the price. Sony still makes money off of the PS2, the PS2 could have launched at $200 if it wasn't for the DVD player

How could they possibly have launched the PS2 without DVD capability? The vast majority of games released for it are on DVD-format. You know those silver discs? Those are DVD's. The ability to play DVD movies was an added bonus, the hardware still would've been the same if they had (Stupidly) chosen to exclude movie playback.

The licensing fees are irrelevant, because Sony would've had to pay them either way.

[Lucas]

First off, Wind Waker sucked First off, you fail at playing games.

four swords, dark cloud, Contra, DMCIII I haven't played yet. All VERY top notch games. Dark cloud 2, for example, kept me tinkering away at my weapons and towns for at least a month straight. Did sex sell that game? No, it was the fact that i was playing sim city with a sword, gun, hammer, and mecha.

the original Final Fantasy games you mean the first one, wherein there's no story? or do you mean the second one, wherein the mother of all cheese comes down and proclaims that your best friend is actually your enemies lackey, and that your enemy is actually your brother, and you've been brought together to fight against pure evil. Oh, and dwarves show up as cannon fodder.

Right. I didn't even think the story to FF6 was all that great either: kay kefka's a retard, good for him. The entire setzer/gogo thing? horribly undeveloped, and obviously the best sidestory in the game. Lavos wins.

Best story? Chrono trigger's magus, or just the entirety of FFVIII. unlike all the other FFs, the last boss was tied in a wee bit before the "omg the last fight starts now" timeframe. Seriously, who the hell is necron.

Baldur's gate wasn't even close to having a story that made the game fun. Unless you spent like 2 hours getting proper macros, that game was downright tedious, as all D&D games are when they run realtime.

[Lucerin Red]

How could they possibly have launched the PS2 without DVD capability? The vast majority of games released for it are on DVD-format. You know those silver discs? Those are DVD's. The ability to play DVD movies was an added bonus, the hardware still would've been the same if they had (Stupidly) chosen to exclude movie playback.

you know they could have gone with another formant, highly compressed cd's would have worked fine.

[Kikuichimonji]

As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree with Lucas entirely. But I would mention that even though the storyline wasn't awesome for BG2, it was a great game. Except for the glitches that froze your computer.

[Lucas]

Baldur's Gate's appeal was in the customizability and the depth of roleplay it allowed you to build into the A.I.

This however, appealed to very few gamers; most simply jumped on the bandwagon when the amateurs of D&D issued rave reviews for the game. Frankly, the game in and of itself was a failure in my mind, but as a landmark in the way RPGs are set up, it created a precedent which eventually led to the creation of completely malleable games.

Neverwinter nights is the most recent hugely successful adaptation of the philosophy ushered in by baldur's gate. The game as sold isn't fun, but go online and join a few original scenarios with your buddies, and you can have some amazing sessions.

Games like system shock 2 tried to combine the customization with fast paced combat and a top tier single player game. In that respect, its much like guild wars: you can twink your character to the max, and go do some elite end game content, but at the same time the options given to you don't detract from the game's "fun factor" if you want to call it that.

In that respect, i think that gaming is NOT dying out: its just finding out how NOT to make games. graphics are awesome: i like them, and so do you, but only as long as they represent something. The first time i played Devil May Cry, i was blown away by the fact that people weren't made of little boxes, and instead were modeled fluidly, however the fact that i continued to play the game was a function not of the graphics, but of the sheer FUN that the game provided.

PSO is another good example: i leveled myself to level 120 offline with one friend: we were constantly wowed by the amazing scenery in episode 2, and in ultimate mode, but without an engaging structure for the game to run on, we would have dropped it and played more Bond.

Everyone, however, agrees with this last argument: that graphics are a complement to a game, and not the defining feature. Why then is the gaming industry rushing forward with new consoles? If its to make breast jiggle physics a bit more realistic, then you'll find me waiting for the next round of consoles playing roms on my PC. If its to create fun, a la nintendo press release, then i'm all for it.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/02/com...dex.htm?cnn=yes This is exactly the philosophy i hold, whether or not its executed remains to be seen.

[Rectifier]

Going back to the topic of this thread and your article, the only things i have to say is:

1. A well written article. You must have spent a lot of time on it.
2. I agree with most of your points, but try leading a massive corporation, they usually are disorganized and the average gamer should expect that some promises cannot possibly be kept.
3. We don't really know if the new consoles and games will be terrible until we play them.
4. And yeah, after the initial hype of the Xbox, PS2, and Gamecube most of their games were terrible, but i usually avoid those games ;) .
5. Hopefully the next consoles after the Xbox 360 and PS3 will be amazing virtual reality glasses :D .

[Raerlynn]

First off, Wind Waker sucked, Mercenaries had no plot whatsoever and what little it did have was just blow stuff up, capture some guy, four swords, eye toy games, dark cloud, Contra, DMCIII I haven't played yet. FFX....you played that game I assume and you didn't see scantaly clad women? The plot was horrible in that as well. At this point you lost every bit of credibility you had.


so did FF9 and FFX and FFX-2 which in my opinion were the worst 3 so far, soon to be followed by FFXII.

And now I hate you with a burning rage you cannot imagine. Its pretty arrogant for you to declare a game sucks when you've never played it.

FFX Endings Spoiler and a bad opinion on it.

WRONG. Failed reading comprehension. If you played through X-2 and got the good ending, it rewards all your efforts in both games.


I am not trying to be cynicaly but truthful, in what games in the last few years have the plots actually equalled or surpassed that of the Baldur's Gate series, or the original Final Fantasy games?

LoZ: OOT, MM, WW, MC, need I go on?
FF 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,10-2
The Elder Scrolls: The Whole Friggin series
Warcraft 3 and expansions
World of Warcraft
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Fable
Half Life 2
Max Payne 1 and 2
Command and Conquer: Any one of the damn series
Starcraft + Brood Wars
Zone of the Enders 2
Grand Theft Auto 3, VC, SA
Dynasty Warriors (Any)
Arcanum
Icewind Dale
Temple of Elemental Evil
Star Wars: Jedi Academy

The list continues, but I think I've made my point; this is all stuff that I have sitting within an arms reach of my desk, not counting the games I play solely for the online content like UT2k4 or Wolfenstein: Enemy Territories. If all these games are SO horrible, list some of YOUR favorite games. Remember that what you consider "suck" may in actuality give other players all kinds of fun. Think about that before making sweeping stupid generalizations.

[Staizer]

Then there is also the fact that plot isn't everything in a game, good graphics, multiplayer, incredible score. Stuff like that. Halo's solo mode could be termed as an average plot and yet millions sold because of the multiplayer capabilities. I personally loved Halo's storyline btw, just saying that the creativity of it was merely average.

Xenosaga/Xenogears has an incredibly in depth plot line. To say that games are dying because plotlines are dying is like saying that movies are dying from the same disease, or books. Obviously new best sellers are coming out every year in the book department, look at Harry Potter. Movies? Matrix ring a bell?

Personally I didn't like the Baldur's Gate plotline. It was too similar to every other D&D plotline out there, please give me something more substantial. Give me something that I can think about, something I can learn from all this that I am playing, like FFVII/VIII/IX/X/X-2. Each of these has a REASON for existing out side of the fact that "Hey guys! Don't you think it would be cool if we made a sequal to this really awesome and money making game?!" I learned more appreciation for nature in VII than I have ever learned in my earth sciences classes. IX taught me a greater respect for life. And you know the funny thing? That was Square's plan all along! Each story had some underlying theme, which made it even more genious!

[netrider6]

I agree with this article in a lot of things, especially about extra features. I want a console that plays games, not watch movies, get online, or cook my eggs. That's what I have a computer for… The more time put into extra gadgets, the less spent on the console itself.

[Mirai Gen]

I am not trying to be cynicaly but truthful, in what games in the last few years have the plots actually equalled or surpassed that of the Baldur's Gate series, or the original Final Fantasy games? Even castlevania 64 had a better plot than a lot of the new games comming out. The only reason I liked God of War is because it actually had a good plot.

I would prefer they didn't sell all that extra crap, but, if it comes with it and I have no choice...so be it.
Wow...just...wow.

What equals to baldur's Gate in plot? Are you blind? What was deemed as "The D20 Star Wars Baldur's Gate" at some points, KOTOR, was one of the most popular games during it's time. Jade Empire is the Chinese mythology version of that, Fable is Baldur's Gate's "Choose Your Own Aventure."

San Andreas. MOTHER EFFING SAN ANDREAS. The plot ISN'T good? How could rockstar make a game about gang life, where 90% of it is "Kill whatever the problem is," without it becoming a stereotype left and right, I don't freaking know.

THEIF! Theif: Any of them -

*breath* I digress. I hope the mods don't drop by.

I don't see how you could have written this article - Which I liked, as a writer and as a reader - without mentioning that Devil May Cry has almost never had huge tits 90% visible, splayed all over the screen. Lady, Trish, and Lucia (Well we can ignore Lucia a bit) are some of the best-clothed, hottest action game 'sidekicks' I've seen lately.

God of War, as far as I could see, was "Look! Big, perfectly formed Greek snacktrays, hot and ready on the first level's ending cutscene! Now that we've got that out of the way, go fight." Shameless, but I think it got the point across nicely. (which I think you mentioned)

most of all, well written article, but it got a little sidetracked - as most do - of the good side of things in the sex/video games thing.

[In Hindsight]

you know they could have gone with another formant, highly compressed cd's would have worked fine.

How the hell does one compress multiple gigabytes onto a CD with roughly ~700mb storage capacity in a manner where it where it would be able to run properly? Just curious.

[Lucas]

How the hell does one compress multiple gigabytes onto a CD with roughly ~700mb storage capacity in a manner where it where it would be able to run properly? Just curious. Why don't you ask nintendo, with those nice little tiny discs which hold a few gigs each?

Yeah. thought so.

[In Hindsight]

He said compression, not increased storage capacity. GCN discs have an actual physical storage capacity of ~1.5GB; they don't just have that much data compressed to fit onto a 185MB mini-CD (Which, by my estimation would be damn near impossible anyway).

The previous argument seemed to suggest to me that data compression on existing CD-ROM formats would've been the way to go.

'Highly compressed CD's' by your example sure sounds like a DVD to me.