Nice guys finish last?

[squall2933]

1st rant (http://www.angelfire.com/vt2/g_hols/Niceguy)
2nd rant (http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~jenf/writing/rant04.html)
Your thoughts?

[shiney]

Keep calm about your woes. If you think women don't want nice guys, you are hanging around the wrong women. How old are you two? Women past the age of about 18 don't tend to act like this. And yes, they do complain a lot about their respective partners when they are upset, but so do men. I bet there's a lot of girls out there who see a nice guy with a not so nice girl and think 'Man, she treats him like shit, why can't he see that I love him so?'

This is almost kind of a sexist attitude that guys with low self-esteem tend to take rather than own up to their own insecurities and inhibitions. If you are confident and outgoing, womenw ill like you. If you are a shy little snivelly mama's boy, there's still a girl or two who would like you, but not as many. The key isn't that nice guys finish last, it's that confident guys get there first. Plenty of them are actually nice, too. You just only hear the bad parts because being a friend means someone to talk to when there are problems.

To be honest, wouldn't you get just as annoyed if they were always gushing about how much they love their boyfriends? How awesome he is, cool, etc, and to hear nothing bad? Think about it.

[Krylo]

Oh yah. Those are some nice guys alright. Man, let me tell you. Those are the nicest guys I've ever had the pleasure of reading a rant from.

Here's a few gems:
Girls are idiots.So charming. Such a wonderful sentiment. It reeks of understanding and sensitivity. The author is obviously such a nice guy.
But the nice guy isn’t THAT naïve. He was trying to score with the girl he listens to all along.And, of course, pretending to be someone's friend so that you can get into their pants is the PINNACLE of sensitivity. It's not in the least bit sleazy. And, it's such a wonderful thought to completely disregard the fact that you have a friend that trusts and cares for you, even if they just happen to be a woman. Because relating every relationship you have with someone with breasts to whether or not they'll sleep with you makes you such a 'nice guy'.
that endure hours of whining and bitching about what assholes guys areYes, yes. Accusing friends who are mistreated by their significant others of whining and bitching and claiming that you have to 'endure' it, is such a wonderful sign of a nice guy. He's obviously interested in her mind and her personality when he feels that he has to 'endure' conversations with her.
his is for that time she interrupted the best killing spree you’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world. And even though you thought it was immature and you had nothing against the guy, you paused the game for two hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor.And, of course, helping her demonize another guy that you have nothing against, just so she'll like you more. Yip. Nice. I can feel the warm fuzzlies all over.
his is also for that time she didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of you, she dragged you to a party where you knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with you, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!” And even though you were invited purely as a symbolic warm body for her ego, you went anyways. Because you’re nice like that.Because you're a chump like that. No one is that 'nice'. Anyone who puts up with this either doesn't want in her pants, or is too goddamn pathetic to EVER get there... and is only there to try getting her ass. Which is, again, so very very sensitive and wonderful, and... you know what, I'm getting tired of sarcasm. This guy's a fucking prick, worse than all those assholes. At least they're out in the open about what manipulative pieces of shit they are. He's trying it from behind her back, playing at friendship just to get a piece. He doesn't deserve even that much.
The nice guys don’t often get credit where credit is due. And perhaps more disturbing, the nice guys don’t seem to get laid as often as they should.Yip. Because sex is the only thing that's important in a relationship between two people of the opposite gender. Asswipe.
the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative bitches. And there's nothing manipulative at all about pretending to be someone's friend when you obviously don't REALLY give a rat's ass about anything besides her, oh so wonderful, measurements, right? Because calling women who are supposedly your friends manipulative bitches is such a nice thing to do, right? Because the author, and anyone who buys this tripe OBVIOUSLY deserves these women, right?

And DaBigg, So for all those women out there that have already been used and abused, I will be a friend, nothing more. I do not need something that has already been wasted.That's obviously the pinnacle of nice-guy-ness, right there. Not to mention the rest of that paragraph.

Here's an idea: If you're such a nice guy, try being honest. Don't pretend to be her friend if you want to be her boyfriend. Don't pretend to be interested in what she says when you think she's a stupid manipulative bitch. Don't pretend like you're the person for her when you're no better than the asshole she's with.

Yes, there is some psychological background to the 'nice-guy' syndrome. There is some actual evidence of women wanting to 'mother' and 'change' bad boys into something else.

But there's also the fact that well over half, I'd even say well over 3/4ths, of the 'nice guys' are complete assholes themselves. They just like to tell themselves that because they let themselves get walked all over to get into someone's pants that they're somehow better than the guy who's more or less honest about wanting that, and just about only that. They like to pretend that because they believe they know what's better for a woman better than that woman does, that they're a nice-guy, even though they find her insipid and only talk to her because they have intentions on her panties.

Frankly, the whole thing sickens me.

[squall2933]

Although the two authors did say some things that were not very nice, I feel they made some good points.

First of all, I'd like to point out that in no way, shape, or form, am I being friends with any of my female friends to concoct some strange plan to get into their pants in the distant future.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to say that I've been madly in love with this girl, Kristine, since I was the supple young age of 15. We had started dating about a year and a half ago, with two break-ups and two reconciliations during that time. About a month ago, Kristine and I broke up again.

Now, I'm 18. Nearly 19. I'm still very much in love with Kristine, and this last month has been one of the hardest times of my life. I really have no reason for getting up in the morning anymore.

For some background on Kristine and I, I've always treated her as if she were a princess. And I'm sure if you asked her, she'd say the same thing. Maybe that wasn't the best thing to do in my situation but it's they way I treated my relationship with her.

So I'm sure you're wondering why we broke up. Well there were a few reasons, but the main one boils down to the fact that she wants to be able to go off to college and date around and do all the things that a stereotypical college girl does. That and the fact that she misses the time where we were really good friends and not lovers. She says that she still loves me very much but she doesn't want us to be together.

So how does this apply? Well, Kristine and I have been through a lot. We'd been sexually active throughout most of our relationship, but through times where she had doubts about sex, I stuck with her. I supported her and I held her and I told her that I loved her no matter what choices she made. Sure, it bothered me that she wanted to stop having sex. I'm not going to deny that. But I was willing to make that sacrifice for her. Throughout all the fights we've had, throughout all the problems we've faced, I stuck with her, and I still could now if she'd have me. But she won't. And I feel that makes me at least partially a nice guy. Sure, I might be a bit of an asshole for being bothered that she wanted to stop having sex, but A.) I feel that it was mostly because of physical withdrawal and sexual frustration, and B.) I never let it get between us.

I understand that you're hearing it only from my side and I'm biased towards making myself seem like a better guy than I probably really am, but in all reality, I think it is harder for a nice guy to find a girl. Maybe it IS because he's too shy to go find a girl, but for the few years before Kristine and I started dating, I was that guy that stood beside her and listened to her no matter what was going on. I wanted to be with her, but I realized that she didn't want to be with me so if I couldn't be more than friends with her, I was happy with being her friend. As for now, I understand that she doesn't want to be with me, and I can accept that. Sure, it's difficult seeing the woman I love every day and knowing that my love is wasted, that my love is unwanted, but if I can't be the person she feels she wants to be with for the rest of her life, I still want to be her big brother and help her in whatever way I can.

So where does this all tie in? Personally, I think that there's something in a female's psyche that wants to change a guy. I don't think it's stupid, I don't think they're stupid, I think it's the same as a guy being physically driven to want sex. We can't help it, neither can they. But I think women have a deep-down mental or emotional need to feel that they're good enough of a person to turn "the asshole" into the "man of their dreams". Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just one self-proclaimed "nice guy"'s opinion.

Krylo, I understand your frustration with guys who say they're nice guys and really aren't, but please don't take it out on other forum members. I'm referring specifically to your last post in regards to DaBiggMan. Although he's not perfect and he has some things that he feels a woman should be doesn't mean that he's an asshole or less of a person. I don't agree with him, but that doesn't mean that I think he's not a "nice guy." Not all "nice guys" are the same. Some are nice in different ways.

As far as what you said, Shiney, I feel that I'm a pretty outgoing guy, and you're right, I generally have no problems finding a few girls that like me or are at least half-way interested in me. However, it's getting the ones that you really like/love to stay that tends to be the problem. A friend of mine explained his theory about it once. "If you're always nice to a girl and give her whatever she wants, she'll take it for granted; if you give her a little of what she wants but leave her wanting more, she'll keep coming back to you and cherish every last thing you do for her." Ironically enough, this was my friend's philosophy on Kristine before she and I ever dated. And it worked. They broke up several times, always on his account, and she always wanted him back. Now Kristine's broken up with me several times, and I've always wanted her back, and still do. Although I don't think his philosophy is the most humane, or "nicest" thing to do, I think there's a little merit in what he says. And I don't even think it's specifically for girls, I think it applies to guys as well.

In all reality, Shiney, I don't believe I have the "nice guy complex". I think right now I'm just going through a tough time in my life, and I'll get over it when I find someone that I feel I can be with and be happy with. I just feel like complaining, and I felt this was the best way to do it. Maybe I just hope that I'll be as lucky as you. I feel that your story, as it is, with RaiRai is one of the sweetest (corny word, but I couldn't think of anything better) things I've heard in a long time. I guess I'm just jealous of your "picture-perfect" romance.

Anyway, this post is running a little long, and for some reason I have the feeling that I'm going to get flamed for something I said in here, so I'm going to call it quits now.

Anyway, keep discussing, it's interesting to see what people have to say about this.
~TJ

[Krylo]

Hey, I tell you what Kyrlo, when you have spent the last 7 years being ditched by girls for an asshole, then they come back to tell you of how much an asshole they were so they can have a shoulder to cry on, then you come back and whine to me.Well, let's see... I'm 22 now... I've always had more friends that are women than friends that are men... me and my friends started dating at around 13... so that means I've been listening to it from one woman or another for 9 years. I've only actually had a girl break up with me specifically to go to a 'lesser' guy once. And you know, now that I've matured for all those years, I realize that I wasn't all that much better than Todd was.

The main difference is that I don't see it as a huge struggle to hear all that. If a friend is going to cry on my shoulder because her boyfriend's an asshole, I'm not going to complain about it. If an ex-girlfriend who became a friend wants to cry on my shoulder, I'm still not going to complain about it. Same as I wouldn't complain if a guy cried at me over a girlfriend (unless it was drunken crying. Drunken crying annoys me.) I didn't even see it as a pain when Jen complained to me about Todd doing something stupid, after breaking up with me, because I and her remained friends. And listening to each other is what friends do.

And I wasn't whining. What I was doing was pointing out the INCREDIBLE hypocrisy in complaining that nice guys don't get laid.

Where's the hypocrisy, you may ask?

If you're such a nice guy why do you care enough about getting laid to write a huge ass rant in which you demonize women over and over again, and cuss, and talk, specifically, about sex on multiple occassions?

If you're such a nice guy why aren't you happy just being friends with these women?

Nice guys don't complain about listening to women bitch about their boyfriends. Nice guys don't complain about not getting laid. The only people who do that are the ones who act nice because they want a piece of ass.

And, also, DaBigg, I may have misunderstood that paragraph as that it came in conjunction with you agreeing, more or less with both rants and the words used. That agreeance, however, still doesn't sit right with me.

I have no problem with your beliefs about chastity. I have a problem with the tone that 'wasted' conveys. But, we aren't professional writers editing and re-editing everything we say to get our connotations and our ideas perfectly worded, so it's entirely possible I took you out of syntax. It's also entirely possible that some of whatever frustration you're feeling is seeping into your post.

So, I apologize if I misunderstood your attitude toward women who have been 'used and abused'. However, I stand by my demonization of the rants, and that no one who ever wants to have a meaningful relationship with a woman as either a friend or significant other should ever think of it as more than bitching from a bitter 25 year old virgin.

Also: Squall, if you're telling the truth, you're not the kind of guy who writes that tripe, and you aren't the kind of guy who should agree with it.

I could, at this point, air a bunch of my emotional baggage and note that you certainly aren't alone, but instead I'll just note that you aren't the only person who was ever left by a woman... and ever considering the words of frustrated, alleged nice-guys, as anything RESEMBLING the truth over that is harmful to everyone involved. Except for the alleged nice-guys... because misery loves company.

[squall2933]

Krylo, like I stated in my post, I don't necessarily agree with the rants, but they did make a few good points. Also, as I said, I don't feel that girls are leaving me for assholes, or that I don't find girls because I'm a "nice guy", but I'm just going through a slump and I wanted to know what others thought of what I feel and what the two authors feel.

I have a friend, John, who always tells me "I'll never find a girl who'll love me" and "Jenna (his girlfriend for a while) didn't love me because she didn't have sex with me. I wasn't good enough for her, because she didn't want to fuck me." Although those are assholish things to say, he's not an asshole. I always tell him to keep his chin up and keep looking, but he doesn't believe me. This was the main reason for this thread. I also try defending Jenna, telling him that she did love him but she didn't want to have sex until she was sure that she really wanted to, but he just won't buy it. I'm exhausted. I can't help my friend and it frustrates me. He just won't listen to me.

[Staizer]

Heh, you should ask your friend John if he thinks you like him as a friend, because you don't have sex with him, but obviously you are friends.

That right there is the reason I don't "really" want sex until I find the right girl, part of me wants to get laid every night, I admit it, but really I know the damage it causes to have that be the only reason to go into a relationship. It hurts both people, unless they are absolutely sure that their lives are going to be together forever, or if they are so in control of themselves that they can give up that relationship when it ends.

Squall, I ask this in all honesty because I have been in a very similar situation and am just getting myself out of it. If hanging out with your ex hurts you that badly why are you still hanging out with her? People come and go in our lives, and it doesn't make you a bad person to make that decision. If she doesn't need you in the way you want her to need you, then you really have two options: 1. Change how you want her to need you to how she really does need you, 2. find someone who really does need you the way you want them to need you. Or both.

I've been broken up with my ex for the past three years now, and we still hung out most of the time, that ate me up inside because even though we were good friends and she knew me almost to my very soul, she still didn't want me. Then this last march I was in group therapy for depression and was discussing my relationship with her when one of the group leaders asked me that question. "Why are you still hanging out with her if she causes that much pain in your life?" My answer was "Because I love her, and if you want something bad enough it will happen." Crap, bunch of crap. So I decided that I needed to end all contact except for birthdays and holidays, for my own sanity.

There comes a point where we "nice guys" just can't give anymore and we have to focus on ourselves, I needed to figure out what was going on, and the best way to do that was to end all connections with her.

Find someone else, there are plenty of fish in the sea and there certainly isn't a "Perfect One." I'm still learning, and I am right there with you dude, just keep trying and eventually you'll find one that fits you well enough. Just remember to communicate, too many opportunities are lost when we assume that others know what we are thinking (this means believe what the other people are saying as well, if your girlfriend says she loves you, believe it).

edit] I currently have the problem of thinking that two women who know me better in the entire world than anyone else don't want me because there is something wrong with me, and that none of the girls I am interested in want to get to know me, but then, you know what, if a girl doesn't want to get to know me, she is shallow and I wouldn't want to get to know her anyway. I can care about her life, I can be sad when something goes wrong in it, but I don't have to commit my heart to a person who won't commit theirs to me. The women that know me the best on the other hand is a harder thing to think about.

The first is my ex, and the second is a friend that I've been hanging out with for the past 2 years, neither of them want to date me, but then, thinking about that as well, that's their problem, I want to date them, so its not like I have any issues with their personality, if they don't want to date me because of who I am then that's their choice, and if its just because they aren't ready, that is their choice as well. All I can do is be there and ready if they change their mind, or if I am already with someone else, then that is their loss for being too late.

I am not being egotistical or anything. I am merely stating that borders have to be set in order for my own personality to survive.

I feel like I'm not stating any of this clearly, so if it doesn't make sense please feel free to let me know and maybe I can clarify it, its hard to cram something like a year's worth of re-creating how I view the world into one post.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Whee! More debate!

There will almost never be subjects more disputed than these; the miscommunications between men and women, although it seems like some communications between men and their peers can come close.

I've heard it said time and time again that chivalry is dead. And it's true! It's true! Chivalry IS dead... and women killed it.

Part of the frustrations that men experience when they encounter a woman they are in love/lust with are due to the fact that men and women, for the most part, do not operate on the same mechanisms. Men go by what they see and deduce, meaning that if A (The right guy) + B (The girl/guy/object of your dreams) = C (Unending utopian bliss), then C must obviously only be obtainable by combining B with A (which by fault of overbloated ego, MUST be the one contemplating said "logic"). Now I'm not insinuating that nice guys have such egoes, but it's not an unknown anomaly. I myself experienced this recently when I was dealing with Steffanie, an ex-manager of mine at my old job. Steffanie was everything I could have asked for in a woman, certainly more than I would ever believe I deserved. She was intelligent, well-built, incredibly beautiful, sensitive, funny, fun to be with, fun to talk to... none of her conversations ever bothered me, just because I wanted to be around her. And she was short. 5'0". I don't know about the rest of you, but I LOVE short girls... it's a fetish, I'll admit it.

Anyhow, Steffanie was with a guy, we'll call him "Moron," for sake of brevity. Moron was a convicted felon (check fraud), a deadbeat (she supported him and his habits for three years), had all the personality of a turnip, and looks to match. What she ever saw in him, I will never know. Eventually, Moron moved to a little place called Colville and got himself a job, finally. The moment he was able to support himself, he found a convenient skank to bang. Who was a friend of hers... and she had to find out on their 4-year anniversary. They told her it was more than likely to happen again. And she actually considered staying with him!

Now, I can see what happened... and I hated to tell her the truth, because I knew it would hurt. He basically used her as a crutch until he could go on his own. She likes to cuddle and kiss more than just putting out, whereas, he isn't having fun unless he's jabbing his genetals into something. Thus, when it was no longer necessary or convenient, he moved on. What had me confused was that she still held hope for him until it became obvious that he was beyond salvage.

This, my friends, is a perfect illustration of why women will stay with the "losers, schmucks, assholes, and dumbasses," rather than go with you, the self-proclaimed man of her dreams. It isn't necessarily any flaw you possess, but women operate on how they feel, rather than what they see. I could see that moron was a complete asshole and an ingrate, a user, where Steff could only remember those fleeting romantic moments where somehow he made her feel like the only woman in the world. And believe me, sometimes, that can outweigh IMMENSE measures of grief and frustration... it will make women do things that have men scratching their heads. Crazy? To most men, yeah. To women, maybe not. I had a lot of feelings for Steff, many of which I never dared to express because I never wanted to lose the friend she'd become to me. It might be cowardice on my part, but I've always felt that Discretion was the better part of Valor... and I'd rather have her as my friend, to help pick up the broken pieces of her life and help her to mend, than to only be there if she wants to be with me. I wouldn't mind if she did, but I already have that desire... anything beyond that is ultimately her choice to make.

It's frustrating, it's aggravating. It makes you want to ram your head into a wall. It drives you mad at times... there have been a few girls out there whom I would have given everything for, if only I could have made them my wife, had my children with them, and done my best to give them a life they could never have dreamt of. One especially comes to mind, whom I will never name. And believe me, I sympathise with all of you who are frustrated with these kind of problems, but there is more to life than finding a mate. I'm so glad I realized that, finally. My sister has three children... beautiful children... that I would give my life for in a moment's notice without hesitation. They are my precious ones, my beloved people, and they are my reason to live. What I want is important to me... but I've found that by making those three children happy, I've become so much more fulfilled and pleased with myself than chasing after the elusive "one" has ever made me. Think of what is truly important in your lives... you'll find there are some things even romance cannot buy.

For everything else, there's Mastercard.

Edit: Sorry if I ramble and it makes no sense. I'm half asleep.

[shiney]

It shouldn't be generalized. It's so easy to say "Women will stay with such and such" but in reality, it's a very small amount of women who are like that. It's not anyone's place to judge them either, because a guy will often stay with someone who they think is cheating on them, has cheated on them, is a gambling addict/drug user/whatever too. It boils down to emotional insecurity and familiarity in a lot of cases. There's also the threat factor which a lot of people don't actually say. "He said if I leave him he'll kill me". Etc etc etc.

Most of these rants across the net are from people who think they know better but generally have no right to interfere. Usually they don't know the person even remotely as well as they thought they did, else this sort of situation wouldn't be so confusing to them. It doesn't matter if a person has known girl x for 20 years since they were a baby, if they can't figure out why that girl would stay with that guy, they don't know anything about the girl. And so, they have no right to 'rescue' her.

Personally, I'm just waiting for Mashirosen's input. :3

[Rhyos]

I've seen quite a few sides of quite a few fences. I've known the "he'll kill me if I leave, but I have to because he abuses me" type. Very scary. I've stayed for about a year with someone who cheated on me 4 times. Also very scary. I've been rejected, dejected, laughed at, spit upon, ridiculed, and now I'm in an excellent, wonderful relationship with the Lady who has been at my side the whole time.

Nice guys may finish last, but they finish best. Keep that in mind.


<_< And on another note, why do more guys hit on me than Ladies? :thief:

[RagnarofBurland]

Discretion was the better part of Valor...

If you really are the 'nice guy' it really is the better part. You ought not mind doing it, you ought be doing the typical 'nice guy' activities for more than one person and even if you are worried about that one you want, I do understand how you can break into a rant like this.

(Well, in it's full blown form. If you really do care, as this nice guy syndrome supposedly claims, you should realize about a quarter of the way through that it's just stupid and you need to go worry about other people again.)

This is of course to say I've never gone into such a rant....tis just to say that in the end, if you really are a nice guy, you have to realize it isn't the end of the world and that you need to get off the internet because the phones going to ring and someone needs your shoulder which now has a rash from so many tears.

[Steel Shadow]

Thing is, we do mind. Your making it sound like it's our duty to listen to all the woes of people around us. It's not, it's just who we are. A person can only listen to so many problems. We'll do it, and most of us do it for a good long time. But sooner or later it's just to much. And all the crap thats happened comes welling up at once. That's when snap back or burst into tears time.
Right now I can't imagine not doing that. I hate to see people hurt, and I want them to be happy. Like they said, valor and all. It's just part of who I am. I dare you to spend a few years listening to your closest friends vent their most personal feelings to you, and not begin to feel something. We are, despite how we act, guys. We have needs to, y'know. We just express them diferently.
And your right Shiney, if we had more self confidence, we'd get more girls. Thing is, you can't just say that and make it all better. That's a major lifestyle change. Unless you give it 110% all the time, you'll eventualy revert. I'm talking from personal experience here.
It wouldn't be so bad if people didn't take what's right under your nose for granted. And no, I'm not generalising. Everyone does it.

[Astral Harmony]

I used to complain internally about how I could never get laid even though I was one of those stereotypical nice guys, and I always wondered why. I wasn't really sexually attracted to any of the girls I lended my attention to at various points, yet still there was still that complaint. I decided ultimately that it was just my hormones ["they always annoy me"] bitching. Since some time ago, I've stopped dealing with it. It's not like I wanted to stop. It's just that I ran out of women to help with their relationships and turned over to video gaming and sprite comics and other stuff. My hormones've calmed down since then and don't complain so much. I guess that makes me a retired "nice guy".

As for personal experience, I don't have much OJT (On the Job Training) in the "nice guy" field. No personal relationships for me. Many more female friends than male ones. Cases came in an out for maybe...oh, the period of ten years. As for actual helping, I don't have a year's worth of experience. I just helped when I was called upon.

EDIT: And if you think I'm not a nice guy, just hover your cursor over my reputation icon.

[Mashirosen]

Personally, I'm just waiting for Mashirosen's input. :3
Do I need to give any? You and krylo said everything I would have, but more gently. I think it's worth pointing out that the two guys arguing against the "nice guy" thing are the ones who seem to have the healthiest lovelives, though. All the things that usually contribute to "nice guy syndrome" -- immaturity, unrealistic ideas about love, lack of self-awareness and self-esteem, an inability to relate to women as individual people instead of ideas or goals to be attained -- are what's keeping them from having happy relationships, not some weird sex-linked gene that forces those silly, illogical females to want only to be "raped by a rich, muscular doctor" or whatever the current pacifier fantasy may be. Of course there are plenty of girls all too happy to exploit the "nice guy"'s nebbishness, but after a certain point, can you blame people for wiping their feet on a doormat?

Edit: although it's interesting that the girl version of this -- sometimes called "Tinkerbell Syndrome", nauseatingly enough -- tends not to be nearly as misandric as "nice guy syndrome" can sometimes be misogynist. The bitterness there is usually turned inward instead of against the objet d'creepy obsession, although in both cases the anger is hardly ever put to constructive use. Probably to do with all the blah blah girls not socialized to get angry blah blah usual cultural suspects, I'm sure.

[Shadow Otenaki]

Yeah, I used to be a 'nice guy'. I still kind of am somewhat.
In HS I was always a friend to girls. I had more female friends than male friends.
I still do, heh. All my 'girl'friends say that I'm one of the nicest guys they've ever met, heh. Also admitted they were 'attracted' to the 'bad boys'. Heh. Something a friend of mine said:

"I'm may be attracted to bad boys, but I most certainly don't want to spend the rest of my life with one."

So.. yeah.

[Dante]

I remember a counter-Nice Guy rebuttal I saw a while back. The general idea is, "most nice guys think being nice is being a doormat. Well, if you act like a doormat, you'll jolly well be treated as one!"

[spazzhands]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4628293.stm
maybe we should try this. Its bold, its confident and its completly honest. you get better results if you are completly confident and just ask "are you single" or "can I have your number", rather than saying "so..... is there a man in your life". women can somehow "see" a hidden ulterior motive from a mile off, which creeps them out.

[CelesJessa]

This is all wonderful, since, you know, of course dating isn't NEARLY as difficult for girls as it is for guys. Because girls don't ever have to listen to their guy friends complain about their relationship problems, when they just want to smack them and be like "can't you just see what's wrong?!" /sarcasm

As Mash said, Krylo and Shiney basically said all there is to be said.
Shiney with the confidence and outgoing. It doesn't mean you have to be an ego-maniac, but your chances are severely cut at having a good relationship if you don't even like yourself, or you are always complaining or putting yourself down. Unless you like relationships that are built on pity.

and if you get pissed off at girls because of mistakes they make with going back to the same guy and such, Guess what! Women are human too! We are bound to make mistakes and keep making them. Generally, when a guy is an asshole to them, leading girls to want to break up with them, the guys find a way to apologise in the sweetest way possible, even though they may not mean it, it makes it harder to follow through with the break up (women are emotional creatures). And there's always the "one more chance" thing, that ends up in being 5 more chances. It's not like they make their mistakes on purpose. It's not a crime to make mistakes. And if they come to you for a sholder to cry on, that must mean you're doing something right, because, generally, at least as far as I'm concerned, I have to trust the people I will open up with and cry with far more than most other people. EDIT: and if you truely are their friend and you truely care about them, it shouldn't be a hassle to listen to their woes, it should be a privilage.

Also, (heh I keep jumping from topic to topic) being a nice guy isn't enough, sure you may treat the girl like royalty and be completely obsessed with her, but does she enjoy hanging out with you? Do you enjoy doing activities together? If you want to get into a relationship that is serious enough for marriage, you and your partner should get along like best friends. (but if all you're trying for is to get laid, then... good luck with finding a real relationship, you'll need it)

Sorry, I'm trying to keep myself from ranting. Obviously men and women are built differently (as far as their feelings and emotions), there isn't just one guidebook to understanding how to score a relationship.

It's a confusing world out there, but acting like women are the enemy and are all manipulative bitches sure isn't going to help your cause. You aren't a victim, you're just trying too hard to make yourself into one.

And appearantly nice guys don't finish last all the time, because both of my older brothers are as much of nice guys as you can get, and my oldest brother has graduated from college and is married to his wife who he met in 6th grade (even though they had broken up on some bad terms their senior year), and my other brother is happily in a relationship with a girl at college. And they both are generally some of the nicest guys I know, if not the nicest. (trust me, I've had to live with them.) And guess what? In all of my 18 years (and my family is pretty close, so...), I NEVER heard my brothers complain about how nice guys finish last. Perhaps some kind of connection in the mentality there?

Heh, I hope my rant wasn't too... ranty.

[Shadow Otenaki]

Yes, I quite agree with the frienship thing to the girl you like.
Cause if you can't even do things together and treat each other like friends.. then the relationship will go down the toilet.

I have a girl I really like, and honestly, she's the bestest friend I've ever had the priviledge of meeting. She knows my feelings towards her, and accepts them.
We're friends for now till sometime next year.

So.. yeah. Nice guys don't really finish last. At least not after highschool. >.>
People are too shallow in highschool in their teen years, so of course 'nice guys' will finish nearly last sometimes. Maybe.

[adamark]

I hate those whiny bitchy self-professed "nice guys" who have all these pie in the sky ideas about what love is supposed to be and how women are "supposed" to act.

[Darth SS]

Speaking as what most of my friends (largely female) refer to as a nice guy...

People say I finish last. By their perceptions, I do. By mine, I don't. I'm not being nice for a relationship. I'm not being nice to get laid. I'm not being nice to get the big flocks of girls. Hell, most people would say I'm not even being nice most of the time.

Here's the difference: The two rants by "nice-guys" are by people who want to be rewarded for kindess. They give the girl what they want, when they want it, then act affronted like there's some sort of debt.

Me? I don't want to be rewarded. I also don't give people what they want, or tell them what they want to hear. Hell, I don't listen and just nod my head. I tell them what they need to hear, and I help them deal with their problem. Is there a debt? No. Why? I think of it as a public service. With all the crap that happens between the lives of everyone I know (keeping in mind that I'm 16, and surrounded by idiocy) they need something they know isn't going to change. It's a public service, not a loan.



So, overall: Do nice guys finish last? Only the ones who are gunning for placement.

[Witness1]

Its all about confidence.

[squall2933]

Wow. This topic really took off and left me behind, didn't it?

I agree with most of what you guys have to say. I don't feel that a lack of romantic interest has anything to do with them being "bitches" or that they're "stupid", I really just feel that the "nice guy" doesn't present himself as date-able material. If you're really tired of being caught in the "friend zone", go out and find some females that you aren't friends with. And yeah, maybe some of them will place you in the "friend zone", but after all, what's the harm in having a few more friends? If you really care about them, you'd understand that they just want to be your friend.

I guess my main frustration at this point is that when I was with Kristine, I had girls interested in me left and right. Well, not really left and right, but I still had quite a few wanting to pursue a romantic relationship or maybe even just to have sex. I, of course, did nothing with any of them, and never really even thought about it. The thing is, though, now that Kristine and I are no longer together, all that interest is gone. Maybe there's some sort of "forbidden fruit" philosophy there. Then again, a friend of mine made a good point, which I'm going to generalize in the next paragraph or so.

At the beginning of the school year last year, I looked good. I took care of myself, I styled my hair regularly, I in general cared about how I looked. When Kristine and I broke up (for the second time out of three), that all stopped. I didn't cut my hair, I didn't shave, I didn't do any of the things that I should have been doing to take care of myself. And that's when the interest stopped. And I know where this is going, someone's going to say "Well if a girl isn't shallow, she'll see past it and know that you're a really nice guy" But it goes beyond that. If you don't love yourself or care for yourself enough to take care of your body, how can you expect anyone else to do that for you? In other words, if you don't respect yourself enough to move on with your life and go out looking for a person to spend your time with, then they're not going to come find you, either.

However, I must say, I was kinda looking forward to some analysis on my last post, mostly about my friend's theory on relationships. Hopefully a few of you will read back and tell me what you think about my post in general.

However, I'm going to end this post, as it's running long and I've run out of things to say. Thank you for smacking some proverbial sense into me and helping me get over this slump in my life.

As a side note, not that any of you would be, but if anyone's interested on more backstory of Kristine and I, more of it can be found on my weblog (http://www.livejournal.com/users/squall2933/). Although it's not the entire story, it's a good portion of it. Or at least some things that could make you understand it a little better.

Anyway, now that that's over with, I bid you adieu until the next time I check this thread and notice that it has been closed because it's full.
~TJ

[RagetheWarrior]

Darth SS - your post was like looking in a..well, reading a written mirror. whatever. I try to live like that as much as possible. And when girls leave as quickly as they came, I move on too. I know I can't understand them, so why bother? Sure, it hurts for a few days, a week, then everything seems to become normal. Life goes on and I almost feel stupid for it.

[GARUD]

Oh, Dear.
It just described me exactly. Both of them. How did they know?

I hate being at the wrong end of the candle. Sure, I like being nice and all but it makes my life go backwards. Technically nice guys are supposed to go forwards in life, always. Reality though, says alot of different things. All the guys at my school act gay and touch each others groins, they torment everyone else including the girls, yet all of them have girlfriends. Some have had more than one at the same time. There are only two nice guys at our school. Me and my friend. Thats it. There are 16 girls, and two of us. neither has a girlfriend and baisically we are what they call "Husband Material".

Those assholes need a swift kick to the head. Followed by a fatal mob stabbing. That will put some sense into them.

[Crodevillian Team]

Here's a tip, straight from an anonymous source inside Modtown. Oh, wait. I've used that one already. Well, I suppose it's about time anyway. My anonymous source is Mark Felt.

I mean me. Anyway, I have devised a theory that the Nice Guys Finish Last theory sucks. To support this theory, I spent several hours in the library yesterday conducting reserch, and have since created this diagram. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Croteam6/NGFL.gif)

With that business out of the way, I have this cute little saying that I like to use every now and then. The jingle's even better, but as I have no means of recording it, please use your imagination:

"'Nice Guys' are creepy!"

Please note the use of ' marks that denotes a specialized use of the term 'Nice Guys.' That's because there are two types of "Nice Guys."

First, there's Nice Guys; the average guy who cares about people [read: this includes women], isn't afraid to joke around, and who more or less can forge a solid relationship.

Then there's 'Nice Guys'; they're creepy!

I'll do my best to explain the reasoning behind this, but I can't guarantee that the message will be delivered to the appropriate address. 'Nice Guys' often expect that because they're nice, women will lay themselves across a table and have a case of Red Bull on hand for every visit. They often feel that, because they're nice, they're automatically The Best Boyfriend in the Widest of Worlds. They often believe that the twenty four bouquets of roses they sent every day for the past week to the girl next door will result in a night-time nightie-clad visit.

This isn't to say that 'Nice Guys' are only motivated by sex, but it sure as heck seems like it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be complaining. After all, with the amount of ears they lend, shoulders they offer, hugs they give and gifts they buy, they seem to have plenty of female friends.

There's such a thing as romance, and it works wonders in a relationship, but by the same token, there's such a thing as too much. There's a difference between kindness and worship, doting and blood sacrifice ; "Yes, your highness. I'm sorry, your highness. I cut myself and brought you another round of gifts, your highness." Even I, a man, motivated by alcohol, cleavage, explosions and large machines, would be creeped out if Adriana Lima herseslf came at me with a beer, a bikini, a bomb and a bulldozer but that kind of attitude. Certainly, I imagine most girls would feel the same way if a man acted in that manner.

There's some handsome guys out there who have just as much difficulty finding a girlfriend as Uncle Fester, and there are some Wolf Boys out there dating supermodels. The thing is, there's more to attraction than being 'nice.'

If all it took to "get" a girlfriend was to listen to their problems and offer advice, then every therapist in the world would sit on their thrones of gold, laughing at Johnny Depp as they order another dance from The Harem.

Don't listen to your "friends" complain if you don't want to listen.
Don't put up a front and expect people to love you for it.
Don't give expecting to get.
Don't act like a doormat, as it's been said, and expect people to find you attractive.

'Nice Guys' allow people to take advantage of them, and then get mad when they do. It's nonsense. It's a bitter martyr complex. "I walked three miles in the rain to get you Ben and Jerry's when you didn't ask for it, and now you won't date me! You are a terrible person!"

It's ridiculous and selfish to expect girls to like you because you're nice to them. Girls are people; they're not items to be taken off the shelf, they're not dolls to be played with, they're not predisposed to like you, and they surely aren't obligated to like you because you bought them a silver necklace, glass slippers, ten carnations, and a new bike.

What was said about confidence was right on the money. Instead of being 'nice,' try being Nice, Confident, Funny, Easy Going, and Talented. The best thing you can do is respect yourself, be confident in who you are, and keep a positive attitude. With an outlook like that, there's a Jarmela in Sweden, a Shaiza in Mexico, a Sarah in Canada, a Michiko in Japan, and a Jeff in Idaho who's dying to meet you.

[Steel Shadow]

Ok, I'm going to try to put a few things straight. I can't speak for everyone, but I sure as hell can speak for me. I consider myself to be a nice guy, but I lack confidence. I have no idea how to approch a girl and ask her out just like that. I don't expect girls to throw themselves at me for being nice, but I do expect to at least be treated decently for it. I don't mean date or anything, just a thank you or something, y'know? But I get insulted by pretty much everyone for being such a loser. That's disapointing, but I can live with it. People are idiots at my age. Still, I have never had a girlfriend. This isn't a case of I could get one if I accepted their advances, or I constantly demand that they date me, its a case of I'm terified of rejection. Stupid, I know, but I still gots it. I do want a girlfriend, because I'm a guy. Not for sex particulary, I just want to have one. It's insulting to say we're driven by need for sex, it's mainly hormones. I mean, different hormones.
I think it's the same with most nice people out there. Shyness is one of the causes of "nice guy" syndrome. And no one wants to be alone, do they?

[RaiRai]

<_< And on another note, why do more guys hit on me than Ladies? :thief:

'cause you are the hottness where the mens are concerned. Don't knock it! I'd love to be hit on by some attractive females, but it ain't gonna happen.

And I don't have much to add here apart from the fact that the term 'nice guy' is usually used by guys who are shot down. True, guys may have been dumped for someone who, in their opinion, aren't as nice - but some girls leave guys for other guys who are better for them.

I had my second boyfriend use that line on me, and I'm with Shiney now. A nice guy. My previous boyfriend was a nice guy too, but we had nothing in common and we weren't comminucating. It's not about being nice. It's about being right for one another.

[Staizer]

I don't expect girls to throw themselves at me for being nice, but I do expect to at least be treated decently for it. I don't mean date or anything, just a thank you or something, y'know? But I get insulted by pretty much everyone for being such a loser. That's disapointing, but I can live with it.

Steel, my question is simple, Why? Why would you do things for people that obviously, or so your paragraph states, don't respect you? Why would you want to end up with a woman who will treat you just like all these so-called friends have treated you?

You know what I do in order to convince myself to talk to someone new? The first thought that always goes through my head is, "Well, I'll never see them again, so it's not like it would hurt to say hi." Sometimes I will walk up to a woman and say hey, or ask some question to which they look like they might be knowledgeable, or make some funny comment (It depends on the situation and how I am feeling) and they laugh, or answer, and we have a discussion, then I walk away. No asking for phone numbers, no saying, "Hey, wanna hang out sometime?" No, that's for dorks, and people that want to get in other people's pants. A little later I will go back and This is where you ask the question. Mainly emails actually, much less personal, safer. Or I may not go back and just see them later somewhere else and continue the association from there. By not acting desperate (i.e. trying to speed things up), you act more confident (i.e. taking your time, going slow, knowing what comes, comes).

But at other times, I will make my funny joke, and the girl will sniff and turn away, this is when I tell myself that she wouldn't have been a good friend anyway. If she spends time paying attention to me, then she is a friend, and if she doesn't, she isn't. That is what friends do, PAY ATTENTION not because it is tedious, or because you are obliged, but because you actually care about what is happening in their life.

Obviously men and women are built differently (as far as their feelings and emotions)

Celes said this, and honestly, I don't know if I really believe that anymore . . . Maybe I'm just different from most guys, I don't think so, but maybe. Anyway, guys are taught not to have emotions, and women are taught to have emotions. Most guys fail miserably to not have emotions, as this thread points out, but if guys were to accept their emotions, and treat them as an ally, then really they are no different, emotionally, from a woman. Most of these stereotypes, it seems, are created by the "Nice Guys" or their female counterpart to keep the mystery there so they don't have to take the blame for their own mistakes. I am not saying that Celes is trying to promote this, I am merely saying that to say it makes it true, and if it is true then men and women will never understand each other because they are "different." If you say to yourself "She rejected me because she is a woman," then that builds in your mind that all women will reject you. Instead we should think, "She rejected me because I wasn't right for her." Which builds in our minds that because she rejected us, she wasn't right for us, just as we weren't right for her. It also tells us that in the future we may be right for her. It all depends on the situation and how people's lives are going.

Half a year ago I wasn't even ready for a relationship, meaning if I had had one it would have fallen apart like corn bread. Now I feel like I could have one, so I am willing to give it a chance, unlike in the past, when I couldn't.

Time heals all wounds and calms all hearts.

[Bosolai]

I don't know too much about relationships. I've only been in two, one lasted 3 weeks and the other is 2 months and going. I've been the 'Nice Guy' type before, but that never worked. Now, being the nice guy and not the 'Nice Guy' does. The main difference between being a nice guy and a 'nice guy' (IMO) is that the 'nice guy' endures, expects everything he wants, and gets nothing, while the true nice guy enjoys, expects nothing, and gets everything he needs to be happy and then some.

Now, I don't have any relationship stories other than "I was a 'nice guy' and got nowhere" yet over here "I was a nice guy and got a good long-term friend", but since I think this rule applies in general, I'll share two separate stories from the social interaction I'm best at, and thats MMORPGs.

Back in the day when I played FFXI, I was a white mage for all of the perks. I would heal people randomly and teleport people so I could later guilt them into doing stuff for me. It wasn't me being a philanthropic guy, it was me hoping that a heal here and there would save me time looking for help fighting Ifrit. Whenever I powerleveled people for money, it was horribly boring and I usually left early yet expected to be repayed even though I said "nah, I don't need it." I was a very bitter white mage with serious issues. I had friends, but not many who would go out of their way to do things for me. That was me being a 'Nice Guy'.

Now, on WoW, I'm a Warlock. A short while back, I was about to leave an area that was just a pain to both find and get to. Not necessarily guarded by tough mobs, but just takes a while. When I saw in general chat a guy asking where to find the place, I just invited him and summoned him cause I didn't want anyone to go through that. Recently, I got a VERY hard quest for a super amazing summon (infernal), and asked in general chat for some help. The guy remembered what I did and he soloed the whole quest for me. Not only did that catch me off guard, but I got myself a spiffy new summon. Being a nice guy really paid off. Neither did I finish last, but I also finished best.

Comparing the two scenarios, I'd say the actions are of about equivalent helpfulness to others. The 'Nice Guy' probably went a little more out of his way, but the nice guy certainly didn't need to waste any time, mana, or a soul shard to save time for some stranger he thought he'd never meet again. The 'Nice Guy' hoped for more than he could get, and as natural only came out bitter and disappointed. The nice guy hoped for nothing, and came out suprised and joyous. Anyway, thats my view on the nice guy / 'Nice Guy' thing.

Although it may be off-topic for the relationships I guess, the thread itself is "Nice guys finish last?" so I thought it appropriate.

[Illuminatus]

Yay! Sharing time!

I have to say, this is about the dozenth time I've seen a post bemoaning the cruelty of the fairer sex, and maybe the third time I've seen those exact rants.

I'm going to be honest. I just skimmed the thread, and I skimmed the rants, but I've read them before and I know what they say. So here's my story.

I'm a pretty darn nice guy. I've never been in a fight, and I never get angry. People usually like me, unless they're just looking for someone to hate. Sometimes I get walked on, because I dont know how to say no, but I don't feel like it's a particularly big deal most of the time.

I also have this bizarre thing where I always have crushes on my female friends. I've probably had a crush on at least one of my friends at any given time between now and when I started liking girls.

Until this year, I was all, "Boo hoo, girls don't like nice guys, blah blah blah," But let me tell you a couple things.

1. In college, theres a lot less of those girls. Girls start dating guys who aren't assholes much more often, and guys stop being assholes much more often. Works out for everybody

2. Bemoaning your situation gets you nowhere. I spent countless hours feeling sorry for myself, but it didn't do jack for my situation.

Eventually my situation improved itself, and I had two girlfriends and a little fling this year. All of them managed to hurt me quite badly because of how nice I am. I treated those girls like godesses, tried to do as much as I could to please them, and they hurt me for it.

Here's the thing though. First, especially in a relationship, you can't try too hard to please the other person. Feel free to make demands for yourself. If the other person doesn't want to give in to your reasonable demands, then they're probably not interested in you.

Second, you've got to pick yourself up again. Give yourself a little bit to feel sorry for yourself, then get back on the horse. Learn from your mistakes.

And finally, for all you never-hads out there, I want to make a promise to you. It will get better. Girls will become accessible to you, and may even seek you out. Just be patient.

There you go. My 2 cents.

[LordBalmung18]

Wow..You are so...insanely jaded. Its not even funny. Its not wrong for a guy to be nice to want to get into a girls pants and im offended that you think so. This guy didnt put it very well so ill try to correct it. Nice guys like us(the real ones anyway)View sex as just another step in becoming close to someone. If i really cared about someone i would do all those things he mentioned and endure all he named. I have before and i will again. I didnt do it because i wanted to get laid. Its understood that if i managed to take the relatshionship beyond friends with someone that sex would come along at some point. But its neither a goal nor really an important part of the process. Yeah im still a virgin. Laugh if you want. Sex really isnt that all consuming me for. Im seeking someone i can be close to. Someone i can share everything in my miserable little life with and face the challenges together. All that romantic stuff. Sorry if im a little blunt but yeah..the years wear thin and im a little jaded from trying too hard. And as long as im being blunt..Ouch shiney. That shit stung man. Im aware im too shy. I cant do anything about it. Im born like this(aspbergers disease)And you forgot to mention..the kind of girls that like outgoing guys? Arent really our type. Partiers and all that lack the abilty for deep relatshionships. Sorry for the rant im just on a kick tonight.

Edited by Mashirosen because there is no freakin' need to quote an entire super-long post when you're not responding to it point-by-point. LordBalmung, I see you're new here, so please try lurking here and seeing how we do things before you make any more posts like this, okay?

[Steel Shadow]

Huh. I agree with almost everything you just said LordBalmung18. A little bit iffy on one or two points, but yeah, I agree. And I have asbergers syndrome (Small world, huh?). It's true, it really does screw up your self confidence. But it can be overcome. At least a bit. Just tell yourself to be confident, and whenever your not to sure about whether you should do something, ask yourself: What's the worst that can happen?
Granted, it's not a cure all, but it can really help.

[CelesJessa]

Im aware im too shy. I cant do anything about it. Im born like this(aspbergers disease)
Never say that you can't do anything about something because you were born that way. When you look at it like that, it's not that you can't do anything, it's that you won't do anything. Sure it may be harder for you, but it's not impossible. (sorry, don't mean to go off on this, but it's a major pet peeve of mine)

And you forgot to mention..the kind of girls that like outgoing guys? Arent really our type. Partiers and all that lack the abilty for deep relatshionships.
Aren't you just looking at the extremes? If you are outgoing, it doesn't mean that you are immediately a partier and such. Outgoing can be something as small as willing to talk to someone new. And when you're outgoing, it does make it a lot easier to like someone because it's really hard to like someone you know nothing about (aka, really shy guys, since they wouldn't talk to someone out of their comfort zone very easily) Outgoing is something as small as saying hello to someone you don't normally talk to and bringing up conversation.

And it's the same for girls too! Shy girls may have crushes on the shy guys, but if both of them are too shy to talk to each other, nothing is going to happen! I have a good friend who is the most adorable girl in the world, she loves games and anime and she is the best artist (she's had her art put on display at the art muesuem quite a few times, something I haven't even done) but she is ultra shy as far as it come to guys, and she has never had a relationship either. But the big thing is, she doesn't whine about not having a relationship either.

The end of my two cents.

[Dante]

Lord Balmung, I take offense with your impression that partying girls are incapable of deep relationships. Just because they act excessively friendly and intimate (to you) with many men at once is in no way indicative of their way of having a relationship. Consider that this may be their way of expressing friendship and affection to their friends. Hell, I know someone who's just like that with all the guys she knows, but she's too scared to get attached because of the rumors all the quiet, so-called "nice guys" spread about "her and her sluttish ways". And for your information, those girls who like outgoing guys like them because they make the effort to reach out to them rather than waiting for the woman to make the first move. There's a chinese saying that goes "watching the stump to catch a rabbit". It's certainly possible that one day, a rabbit will ram its head into the stump you're watching and get you free bunnyburgers, but it is not to be relied on.

Incidentally - it is irrelevant what you are born with. I know someone with one eye who draws as well (if not better) than most people with two. One of the most boorish and uncouth (he's also a surprisingly tender guy for someone who looks like him) people I know regularly takes girls home with him after he goes clubbing. I'm the original lazy bastard and even I manage to force myself to run every day to keep in shape. It doesn't matter what's wrong with you as long as you make the effort. Shiney and Rai didn't let distance stop them, and now they're married.

If you think I'm just talking out of my arse and I have no idea how bad your situation is, you're right - I don't. And frankly, I don't care. Even a legless man who struggle to pull himself along is better off than an able-bodied man who lets himself fall and refuses to get up.

[Steel Shadow]

Ok, you seem to have the wrong impression here. Asbergers syndrome (And I'm assuming aspbergers disease, becuase they sound the same. Appologies if I'm wrong, but that's a moot point now) is a mental disability. Don't go saying these things make no difference, becuse my father works in a home dedicated to housing and looking after them. I'm not saying that AS, or infact most MDs, are as bad as that, but it still comes under the same clasification. It doesn't stop you from having a normal life, it just makes you see things differently. And you have no idea what it's like growing up with a MD unless you've done it yourself. You're forever told you can't do the same things as other people becuse your "special", but your still expected to do what everyone else does. Being "special" is used as an excuse for every single little thing you do differently, wether accidental, intentional, or individualy. Your a loner? Must be becuase your sepcial. You can't add 36 and 8 together? Special. You can add 36 and 8 then times it by 14 and a 1/2 in .3 of a second? Special. Gifted. Child prododgy. etc, etc. Some of these sound like good things, but if you hear them again and again, it just becomes harder and harder to keep it up.
And then theirs the negative side of it. It makes you very... different from the person sitting next to you. That can be overcome by just trying. But that's only one end of the stick. It makes the person sitting next to you very different from you. People begin treating you differently. At least they do when they're old enough to understand that you are different. They start "looking after you", and "watching out for you". They ask if your alright at every opertunity. And it's very, very wrong. Some cases may need it, but when you do it to everyone who's "special", that's generating a steriotype of a group, and that's wrong. It's like racisim. or sexism. I forget what it's called, but it probably has a name. People should be judged individualy, not thrown in with the rest. I never felt AS was a disability, I would have fought to say it was a privilage, but my parents were constantly going on at me, each other, and my school to make exceptions for me. As were the teachers. People went out of their way to make sure I was treated as the "special" person I was. And I never, ever, ever ever ever ever needed it.

whoops. Slightly different from our sheduald topic. We now return you to your regualr brodcast:

So yeah, AS, or any MDs make a differnce, and they can make it imposible for you to have a relasionship. That was can. Can is a very different word from will. It will only if you let it!!!. Only if YOU decide to listen to all the people who have told you again and again that you are "special". Screw them, what do they know? If you really try, you can do pretty much anything. You may not have any confidence, but you can get it. I'm not going to suggest you think positive, becuase that doesn't help any. Just do it. Do it, I dare you. Dooo itttt. Do it! I know, I don't know what it is I'm telling you to do, but it doesn't matter. If you want to do something, you think you should do something, you need to do something, but your scared, or you think you shouldn't, or you might not know everything you need to know, Just go ahhead and Damn well do it! No matter how small, or big, doing something you didn't have the self confidence to do will always give you what you need. Go ride a roller coaster, sluaghter your way through an undead infested graveyard (What? I scare easy.). In a game. Definatly in a game. No more of this (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=10585). Do the right thing, do what needs to be done, do what you thing needs doing. If your really confident, ask a girl out!
Eventualy it'll all be ok, things happen, and then more things happen. Things also happen in between. They happen afterwards, and before hand to. And as far as you know, you're the only one who sees these things, becuase who else can you prove exists?
Damn it, I did it again. What I'm saying here is that time passes and things change. you'll be a different person at some time, so try to make it a better one.



Oh, before I forget:

Steel, my question is simple, Why? Why would you do things for people that obviously, or so your paragraph states, don't respect you? Why would you want to end up with a woman who will treat you just like all these so-called friends have treated you?

I was going to say that's becuase its who I am, but then I actualy started thinking about it. Why do I do that for people who actualy treat me like that? It makes no sense, and it normaly get a few funny looks from them at the same time. These aren't my friends, Btw, they're just people I'm around for one reason or another. My friends do respect me, at least.
So why do I continue to be a nice guy to people who clearly wont return the favor? The smart part of me want to say it's becuase I don't do it for a reward, and that's true, but it's not the reason. I honestly don't know the reason. Is it becuase I hope that one day they will like me? nope. Is it to stop them complaining that I didn't do nice things for them? Could be, but probably not. Is it becuase I want something back someday? No, and that makes no sense. Why would they? Is it becuase I want to be remembered as a nice person? Ah, there we go. It's not the entire reason, but I think it'll do for this. And I really can't think of anything else that comes close, so it'll have to.

Once again, I have ranted on for a long time. Maybe it's the first time on this forum, but I'm known for it elsewhere. And given time, perhapse I will be known for it here also.
Sorry, I'm just very tired, and when I get tired, I start typing stupid things. So to save you the bother of another ton of crap, I end this now. Goodnight, nuklear people!

[Drax_reborn]

Well i am a nice guy and not a 'Nice Guy'. I want to help all my friends men and women, it just happens that mainly the women talk to me about their relationships. Now I don't expect a reward for listening to a friend, but it makes me angry when they say the whole "you will make someone very happy one day" and "you deserve to meet a nice girl", it's very patronising. And I know that I have low opinion about myself and no amount of self loathing will change what I look like, I know that.

But confidence does not come in little jars, all you need to get confidence is to ask someone out and not get rejected within three seconds of asking, this is the case with both sexes, not just men. If someone gives the low confident person a boost, even a little one which is not patronising, then they can build up confidence.

Sorry if it sounds a little ranty and bitter, but that's how the world has left me and before you start I am not after pity, I have had my fill of pity.

[Staizer]

Steel, I read your post and chuckled, compare these two statements:

It doesn't matter what's wrong with you as long as you make the effort

So yeah, AS, or any MDs make a differnce, and they can make it imposible for you to have a relasionship. That was can. Can is a very different word from will. It will only if you let it!!!

They say the same thing, we agree with you, even if it did sound rude.

I am glad that you know why you are being nice to people, remember that reason everytime you want to beat yourself up for being taken advantage of. I know I have to. The road we walk is full of pain, but that is because we chose to walk this road. Pain doesn't have to be bad as long as we learn from it and use it to better understand what caused it and how to effectively prevent it the next time.

That seems to be the biggest problem. People turn into vindictive, vengeful people when they aren't treated nicely, instead of thinking out the scenario and understanding that the people who are mean aren't the norm. The bad things in life are the minority. For every person that dies of cancer thousands life, for every murder millions are still going about their day, for every jerk who is antisocial hundreds are empathic to others' needs.

[Steel Shadow]

They say the same thing, we agree with you, even if it did sound rude.




You know, your the second person to point that out to me. Gimme a sec, let me see if I can find... aha!

I know that I ended up agreeing with you. I just wanted to make the point that it CAN make it imposible for some people, but as I feel I've overcome alot of the crap I got left with, so I belive it is possible as long as you don't give up. Of course, I don't have a severe case of AS.

Blah blah blah....

In conclusion: It can be changed, you can do something about it, but it takes will power and knowledge of what to do, and not everyone has those.



That should explain it. Oh, and:

I am glad that you know why you are being nice to people, remember that reason everytime you want to beat yourself up for being taken advantage of. I know I have to. The road we walk is full of pain, but that is because we chose to walk this road. Pain doesn't have to be bad as long as we learn from it and use it to better understand what caused it and how to effectively prevent it the next time.

That is one of the best statments I've ever heard on the subject. If it wasn't so big, I'd put it in my sig. Oh well, another time, or something.

[PCD]

Okay, I feel the need for my two cents here. Since a lot of my views have already been posted, I may end up vague at some points, and I may not be the best person for it, but I honestly think there are too many Nice Guys who are posting. How about a Nice Girl with a severe hormone imbalance? There's some variety.

I don't think nice guys finish last. 'Nice Guys?' Yeah, probably. But nice guys really do come in the lead. They just start out in last place. With patience, I think you'll find the asses in first will lose speed and you'll zip straight past. The jerks, asses, fucksticks, whatever you want to call them, don't live happily ever after. Many end up with miserable lives, while the nice guy gets a happy family. High School may be unbearable and seemingly endless, but it'll get better if you keep at it.

This, of course, referring to guys who mean it. It hasn’t been mentioned here that you don't have to be a 'Nice Guy' to get discouraged. Many genuinely kind people get discouraged when the interest runs off after the mysterious brooder, or the tattooed biker. But guys who help these girls vent with just the panties in mind aren't much better--a wolf in sheep's clothing, in a way. Sort of.

Now, consider these girls in and of themselves. Three questions for knowing of you really want this girl: Is she really just gorgeous and kind of nice? Does she really know anything about you? Do your interests mesh? If the answers are along the lines of: yes, no, and no in that order, then she's not for you, right?

Though I suppose that doesn't make it right for her to be with this guy. But you can't do anything about it. Real Life Example(not personal, but real nonetheless):
A friend and her alcoholic fiancé, getting married waaay too early in life. She's whining often about how much he drinks, and how awful he acts when drunk. All it takes: "Are you SURE you want to marry this guy?" She never speaks with you again. It's just something you can't help. People leave people when they're ready (However, If there's abuse and threats involved, then that's an ENTIRELY different matter). It's similar for a friend with a drug problem or drinking problem: you can monitor them worriedly or supportively, or just forget about them and move on, but if you try to say that you're worried about them and they should quit, they're going to think you're an ass.

And as for meeting your own person? I don't need to add anything to what's been said. Confidence is all it takes, man.

Okay, this is feeling repetitive and I’m going to pass out on the keyboard soon, so I’m done.

[Premmy]

Yeah in my area every girl yes every girl thats an exact number wants a thug
and every three out of four guys is a thug head at a forty five degree angle and all
the other thug qualities but not me Supposedly I'm cute but thats only good for three minutes of flirting then,"oooh HEY JAMAL!,scuse me Clarence" and i do generally care about people when theyre hurt and i know it must just be that theyre immature it has to otherwise I'm screwed but for right now thing kinda suck for me so I am just waitin till I come up with a solution and yes I am outgoing

[RaiRai]

Premonitions - can you try and add some punctuation into your posts? That made for a very complicated read. And I doubt its 'EVERY' girl that wants a thug. That's making a generalisation which is probably why you're having no luck with the ladies. We don't like to be catagorised. We don't like assumptions being made of us.

I'm still surprised this thread is continuing based on guys having little luck with girls. YOU NEED MORE BALLS. Get out there and make yourselves known, not sit at your desk whining about it on an online forum. (We can't see you behind that computer monitor unless you've got a webcam shoved in your face.)

[Lockeownzj00]

Gonna have to agree with Rai here. Krylo already did an awesome job...being awesome on the first page in this thread, about three posts down, saying everything that needed to be said, really.

Once, I felt victimised.

Then, I realised I was totally going on a pity trip for the wrong reasons. I don't know if it has to do with charisma or what--but I feel absolutely 100% comfortable with women at this stage in my life. Since I consider myself a (obviously male) feminist, I also question these generalisations. They're the kind of bad ones made on comedy central that everyone laughs at but actually believes. DL Hughely, anyone? :)

[Mirai Gen]

I don't think this is really going anywhere to a major degree. I mean, this rant is sounding like "I'm a nice guy, why can't girls fuck the shit out of me for the considerate, compassionate man that I am? I don't get laid, and women are all fridgid bitches. Damn them for not screwing me, the nice guy."

For christ's sake, guys who complain about nice guys finishing last in love obviously are the basement-DND geeks who are too shy to talk to anyone. All women really want, REALLY what they want to start a relationship is for you to TALK to them, goddamnit, and any psychiatrist or relationship expert etc etc etc. will agree, get some testicles between your legs and BE BRAVE.

I mean, hell, my girlfriend and I get along great, with or without sex, and we both agree we'd just rather wait until 'the time', which can be whenever.

[Gineko]

I only got to read the first rant (2nd got the "this page cannot be displayed"), but I think the author's a twit.

First of all, as alot of people have said already, if he was such a nice guy, he wouldn't be bitching and complaining because, oh noes, he has to listen to his friend ask for advice about what she should do about her boyfriend. If he was such a nice guy, he would be thinking of how she feels instead of moaning about how he can't get into her pants. If he was such a nice guy, he would be the friend that the girl trusts him to be, and do something to help her, not write articles behind her back about what bitches she and other women are.

My dad gave me a book, its called "Guys will put you on a Pedistal (so they can look up your skirt)" that has a quote which I think sums up that article perfectly: Guys use love to get sex, girls use sex to find love. It means that alot of guys will be like whoever wrote that article; he writes like he doesnt care about her but pretends he does in the hopes that he will get to have sex with her. But the girl is going out with the other guy hoping she can change him into someone she will love.

There is a true story in the book, about a party at one guys house. One of the girls there is very open about not wanting to be in a relationship with anyone, so two guys make a bet to see which one can get the farthest sexually with her while getting her drunk, and they judge it by bases. First base is kissing, second is up her shirt, third is a hand in her pants, home is sex. Neither of them felt anything for her, they were the assholes, but luckily the guy who was running the party was a true nice guy, and he kicked the guys out and told the girl what they were doing, and then calmed her down and drove her home.

Instead of bitching and complaining that she was crying on his shoulder and that he wasn't the one getting into her pants, he helped her and did what a nice guy would do. Nice guys do not finish last because they are slowest in the race, it's because they stop to help others on the way to the finish line, and that is how they win.

[ZERO.]

Dude this is true the ladies go for a holes this pisses me off cuz I am a nice guy I will care I will give a shoulder to cry on and what happens I dont even get a thanks. That is bull crap i think ladies are like cats if you give em attention they ignore you but if you ignore em they jump on ypur lap and stick there butts in your face. I was a nice guy for 6 years 6 YEARS and what did it get me a whiney girl that went for the a hole got dumped and went back to the nice guy for support .I eventually got so tired of it I just said "tell some one who cares" cuz after the thousands time she went "he dumped me i cant beleave he dumped me" you just stop giving a rats !@#.

[MasterOfMagic]

......... I dearly hope you didn't read all the earlier posts. 'Cause if you did, surely you'd see the fault in what you just said. Re-read the thread. Then read your post. See how petty it sounds?

[BitVyper]

So, if the guy's main concern is getting laid, and apparently nice guys don't get laid, why is he still being so nice? Why are any of the people who make this complaint still being nice? If you're so sure you know what the problem is, stop complaining and fix it.

[shiney]

I think, ZERO., that you should definitely re-evaluate yourself. Obviously you aren't a nice guy, you're someone who pretends to be one in hopes of getting a girl. If you were a nice guy you wouldn't sit there and bitch like a hormone-driven nerd about how shes retarded because she left you because obviously you were so perfect, or whatever the crap is going through your mind.

Six years? I find that suspect unless you started dating her when you were 12, because I don't see you as any older than 18 with an attitude like that.

[Staizer]

I wonder if "nice guys" have considered the possibility that maybe girls can't read minds? Similar to how guys can't read minds either.

Maybe the woman/women you are hanging out with would be more open to an intimate relationship if you were to say to them, "Hey, how would you like to go on a date with me?" Instead of just assuming that since you are a nice guy they will want to go out with you.

If all you do is let women cry on your shoulder, women will assume that that is all you want.

If you were to say to one of these women, "Hey, I've been listening to you complain for some amount of time now, and I have come to believe that I would be someone who could treat you better than how you have been treated. Give me a chance and we'll see how it works out."

The biggest problems come when people just don't communicate, because everyone starts making assumptions and feelings get hurt and hearts get broken. Try speaking up instead of moping and complaining.

[Mirai Gen]

The biggest problems come when people just don't communicate, because everyone starts making assumptions and feelings get hurt and hearts get broken. Try speaking up instead of moping and complaining.
Thank you. Thank you THANK YOU.

I have heard way too many god damn stories of "Oh man I think she's cheating on me/being too harsh/too demanding/too restricting/whatever" followed by "But I won't say anything..."

Breakup, cued about a month later.

PLEASE. A relationship STARTS with talking, and it can KEEP GOING with talking. Blah.

Anyway, on topic...

Zero: Please, please run spellchecker, think about what you're posting, and monitor yourself. You just contradicted yourself so badly...

[Red Mage Black]

Shiney, Staizer, Mirai, I have tried all of these things you've said, in the past. You see I was a what you would call a "nice guy". Just a few months ago, this girl I listened use to talk with(we were just friends), I told her that I liked her. Then a few months later(last month) she told me that she couldn't date me because I was too much of a brother to her.

Some things in both rants are true, but most of them don't prove anything more then things friends do. You won't get a girl by simply being their friend for years on end. That's a mistake I made.

It doesn't always work just to tell them. Situations like that can happen and can often be discouraging. So I say to always have a back up just in case things don't turn up as you planned.

Concluding my post, some things in both rants are true, but most of them don't prove anything more then things friends do. You won't get a girl by simply being their friend for years on end. That's a mistake I made.

[Staizer]

of course there will be times when the things that we say will help, don't. Its just general advice. However, the sooner you say something to the person, the less time they have to get adjusted to the way they view you. Once they are used to you a certain way, they don't like you leaving that place where they know you.

Off Topic: RMB, you should tell your friend that you always found incest interesting . . . :p

[Dragonsbane]

Staizer, please don't ruin RMB's friendship with this woman. :p

Personally, I think that there is no solid, defining answer to this question. Some girls, especially younger ones (teenagers) ARE attracted to what they see as "dominant" (non-nice) men, ones they would never be able to consider friends. Some would find the concept of going out with a friend to be utterly absurd. However, this rule is neither universal nor a majority, many women are attracted to a kind, sensitive guy who will lend an ear to their problems. As I said earlier, attempting to generalize all women like this is a fallacy of its own.

[Illuminatus]

I agree with Dragonsbane. I think the inherent problem lies in trying to find one overidding truth about women or relationships. As easy as it would be if it were true, women are not a sort of collective force. They are individuals possesing unique likes and dislikes, and a thousand other variables that make definition difficult.

Relationships are hard. You get hurt. But placing blame on the other sex doesn't solve any problems. All you can do is look at yourself, and should you find nothing wrong, then get back on the horse.

[Squishy Cheeks]

Nice guys only finish last, because they never enter the race. Let's be honest. Most "nice guys" are cowards. Cowardice is a repulsive trait. Now I'm not saying the nice guy should join the army and take suicidal missions to prove his valor. He should actually try to live his life, than live in fear of it. If said nice guy likes a girl he should ask her out, and not try to take the cowardly way of trying to worm into their lives. If it works, good for you. If it fails, oh well it wouldn't have worked any way. Honestly what have you lost?

[Staizer]

I agree, was just pointing out the stuff that helps the most. It will never work 100 percent of the time, but it does work as a good base to be open to discussion and say how you feel instead of just assuming that people will know how you feel.

besides, I was just joking about that incest thing, you don't have to get all riled up and stuff, what's up with you guys ganging up against me?!*runs off crying*[/sarcasm]

[Xellos]

Frankly, the whole thing sickens me.

Krylo, have I mentioned lately what an awsome, awsome guy you are?

[shiney]

Post limit, thank god.