One Racist to Rule Them All

[Derek R.]

Do they ever quit?

"Lloyd Hart says people of color are all associated with the Dark Lord Sauron in the movie and the elephant-riding mercenaries too closely resemble the cultures of Africa, Persia and East Asia. The Uruk-hai also too closely resemble Native Americans, which is sure to cause "a great deal of cultural and racial alienation."

The fact that King Theoden, a white guy, calls his troops the "great warriors of the West" clinches it in Hart’s eyes.

"Can you imagine how people of skin color, of Persian, Arab and East Asian ethnic background feel when they come out of these films where all the heroes are white and all the 'evil doers' are of dark skin," Hart writes."


Hart's Article:
http://paris.indymedia.org/article....d_article=13086

[The Devil Himself]

This is hilarious. And your link's broken.

[Sofa_King_Lazy]

I don't know if he's kidding. It could be like that "David Hasselhoff Is the Anti-Christ" site, where the author simply did it for fun. Or, you know, he could simply be an idiot.
Almost as great as one of my friend's speeches that told the world how Ronald McDonald was evil. "If you get rid of a couple letters and rearrange the letters, it says *insert nonsense here*. HE IS THE DEVIL!"
My English teacher was laughing at him for so long after that.

[Dante]

Well, as an Asian I don't mind telling Mr. Hart diu lei lou mou chao lor hai (pm me for the meaning - it's not nice). How do I feel when I am told that Asians are demeaned by the movie? Well, if you ask me, the Haradrim have great costumes and I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of those Oliphaunts. Lord of the Rings is a movie - I watch it for entertainment, not to get my fill of racist propaganda. So what if the Easterlings and Southrons are the bad guys?

And in case he didn't notice, this so-called "great race of the west" almost doomed the entire world by *not* destroying the Ring when they had the chance, thus allowing Sauron to persist and unite the other humans against the Westermen. If anything, this should be a testament to the persuasive power of Sauron rather than the iniquity of his allies.

[Derek R.]

Odd...it was working a moment ago. Still, thats the just of it.

[Devon Lake]

I remember what my fat Arab freind said when he saw those guys in the second movie who through that invisibility cloak or whatever on the hobits; "Tolkien based those guys on Arabs you know! Oh, they are so damned cool! Ya, Tolkien's great. So how great they are? That's the superiority of the Arab race for you," Etc. Honestly even if things ARE running parallel to race (And very few people actually care THAT much) it's entirely subjective whether you choose to be offended or flattered.

[Dante]

Hear, hear... just because jerkholes choose to be annoyed by one thing doesn't mean we all ahve to be...

[The Devil Himself]

Like the censorship on TV. People're idiots. Especially censors. And ESPECIALLY Tipper Gore, and Joseph Lieberman. Grrr....

[Demon with a Glass Hand]

... Mr. Hart diu lei lou mou chao lor hai ...

At first, I actually thought that you were insinuating that he was part of the la li lu le lo ... but that would be just silly.

[Dante]

It actually means "F**k your mother's smelly c**t". Commonly tossed around by the Hokkien soldiers.

[Atronflame]

Thats like, claiming the book 'The Two Towers' had something to do with 9/11. PLEASE. I just wonder how this crap gets into people's heads. I know total pot-heads who arent that idiotic.

[Demon with a Glass Hand]

Ahh ... erm ... ... ew.

[FunnyLooking]

I dunno. It's hard to say what Tolkien really meant. There does seem to be a strange connection, what with the Elephant-like creatures and such. I don't really think anybody's really demeaned by the movie though, because it's still a frickin' fantasy world.

[The Devil Himself]

By what's-his-face's logic, I could say "The Wizard of Oz" is attempting to lure our children into the occult world!!

[Muffin Mage]

We dursn't allow that! Quick, let's burn every book except the Bible! That way, we can save the world from the corrupting influence of Satan! [/religious fanaticism]

People claimed before that the Lord of the Rings was allegorical of WWII, something that Tolkien himself vociferously denied. If it wasn't an allegory of the past, it certainly couldn't be an allegory of the future.

And, FunnyLooking, the Lord of the Rings was part of the alternate British mythology that Tolkien had been writing for forty-odd years. The end part, actually. The rest was published in a blaze of no observation whatsoever. Posthumously.

[Dante]

Alternate Brit mythology? perhaps the Matrix magus could enlighten us?

[Illuminatus]

Middle-Earth IS Europe. Haradwaith and Faradwaith and Rhun are the eastern land. If you look at a map of Middle-Earth, especially toward the Fourth Age (Get the Tolkien Atlas-ITS AWESOME) it looks suprisingly like, well, Earth! Also, if you read the Silmarillion (You should) the creation story bears a strong resemblance to the common Bible one. It's not just some fantasy world that Tolkien pulled from thin air. So next time you're near a garden or a park, keep a close watch for hobbits. :)

Apology for off-topic discussion.

My mom listens to this Christain radio station and when the first one came out, they mentioned that Tolkien was a Christian, then said "But the movie makes references to magic and the occult so you should take note of that" I know people who wont read Harry Potter because he uses magic. WHAT KIND OF WORLD IS THIS WHERE EVERYONE TAKES EVERYTHING SO DAMN SERIOUSLY!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?

[Dante]

A stupid world. A world where a 13 year old vegetarian girl can walk up to a grown man, knock the hamburger from his hands and lambaste him in public for cruelty to animals.

[JoeCB]

and then the grown man can lure the 13 year old into his blue van with some candy.

mmmmm candy.

You are allways going to find people who start things just to start things. Remember how Raciest Lucas is and embedded it in all of his star wars movies?

[Mikorlias Zard]

It's true that Middle-Earth does have roots in reality and other mythology and even the Bible. I mean, it has humans in, that's just like real life to start with...

Ae there idiots who think 'The Two Towers' had summat to do with 9/11? Oh sweet mercy how dumb/off their heads are they? The confounded book was written about 50 years before 9/11!

As for the East/West thing, I did notice that, although it may, just may, have something to do with the fact that Germany was east of Britain/America/France (and still is, incidentally). Or it may not. Or it might simply be a sad reflection on the fact that geographical differences cause so much conflict (I live here, you live there, GGRRR! Bush-esque thinking).

What I find worst is the blatant and utter sexism, although that may simply be due to the fact that, in the sort time the book is set (and indeed, to some extent, when the book was written) women were almost universally regarded as inferior, and never got to do any fighting or anything like that. I think it's good how Arwen's part was extended in the film from the book.

'K, that's my rant over.

Mikorlias Zard

[AnonCastillo]

I've actually heard that the book was an allegory of the cold war, and of how everyone thought the cold war would end. Supposedly, the first war with Sauron represented world war 2. The humans not destroying the ring represented the west's embrace of nuclear technology. Sauron's hold over the ring was supposed to represent the Communist theft of nuclear technology (it's pronounces nukular ;) ). The eastern people were supposed to represent Russia and China, the two Communist powers. while the south was supposed to represent the third world people whose newly formed governments were turning to Communist nations for support.
I dunno, though. It seems kind of off to me.

[GreatSageCorban]

I live here, you live there, GGRRR! Bush-esque thinking

Will politics have to enter every single friggin discussion? Jesus H Christ.

In the world we live in you're going to find people who think they know everything. They'll make grande accusations, and remarks about subjects they know little about. I think we'll soon come to a time when we will not be able to say what we think, and mean what we say. Instead we'll have to consider every angle of every sentence, Just to defend ourselves from people like Mr Hart.

By the way everyone make sure you have a Happy RamaHanuKwanzMas, and a Great New Year.

(Oh No, I forgot Budists! I'm Sued!)

[Muffin Mage]

In order:
Alternate Brit mythology? perhaps the Matrix magus could enlighten us?

In most of Tolkien's biographies, the authors state that Tolkien wished to create an alternate history and/or mythology for Britain, which didn't have one. This idea was taken from his journals and letters, and confirmed by his son Christopher.

Middle-Earth IS Europe.
You're right, up to a point. Endor (the name of Io's creation, which happens to be a planet) is Earth. Of course, that would make Valinost America. And there would have to be lands far to the east and south that aren't mentioned.

the creation story bears a strong resemblance to the common Bible one.

That is because, if you haven't noticed, all creation myths are just about the same. "Supreme being comes along. Poof! lesser beings. Poof! stuff."

By the way, that resemblance only lasts for the first two chapters or so. If you've read the Silmarillion, you'd know that the Ainur decide to split, some comforting Io, some ruling the world, and some aiding the rulers. And Melkor. Those who rule are the Valar, and those who serve them are the Maiar (Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron are Maiar).

What I find worst is the blatant and utter sexism

The books were written in a medieval-type setting, if the swords and archaic language didn't tip you off. In the "Middle" middle ages, i.e. the Crusades, women embroidered and had babies. Unless they were peasants, in which case they were just about equal to men in responsibilities (farming). The books aren't sexist so much as being period-correct.

I've actually heard that the book was an allegory of the cold war

Tolkien and his estate have always denied vociferously the idea that the Lord of the Rings was allegorical for any event.

It seems kind of off to me.

Tolkien felt the same way.

Hooray for knowing too much about Tolkein and the Lord of the Rings!

[Neverwhere]

That is because, if you haven't noticed, all creation myths are just about the same. "Supreme being comes along. Poof! lesser beings. Poof! stuff."

By the way, that resemblance only lasts for the first two chapters or so. If you've read the Silmarillion, you'd know that the Ainur decide to split, some comforting Io, some ruling the world, and some aiding the rulers. And Melkor. Those who rule are the Valar, and those who serve them are the Maiar (Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron are Maiar). Not to mention the Surmilion (i can NEVER spell that right.. u know what i mean though) was almost completely rewritten by Tolkien's son after his death. That book was one Tolkien had been working on since the beginning of his series, but never felt he had enough content nor the correct means of connecting it all together. If you read it some parts 'sound' like Tolkien, while others dont. Though, I guess you have to be a real nerd to be able to determine what style of writing isnt Tolkiens :D Still, its there. Furthermore, the whole reference to the army of the west part is quite ludicris, considering Peter Jackson (who I might add had quite a bit of poetic license in his movies) is Australian. Damn it - its late and I cant spell. Puuh.

[Mikorlias Zard]

the creation story bears a strong resemblance to the common Bible one.
Please don't put words into my mouth. That was Ih8stupidppl, not me. I only said...

It's true that Middle-Earth does have roots in reality and other mythology and even the Bible.
Just thought I'd set the record straight.

Also...

What I find worst is the blatant and utter sexism
I said after that...
although that may simply be due to the fact that, in the sort time the book is set (and indeed, to some extent, when the book was written) women were almost universally regarded as inferior, and never got to do any fighting or anything like that.
Which Muffin Mage may have taken a moment to read and consider before writing.
The books were written in a medieval-type setting, if the swords and archaic language didn't tip you off. In the "Middle" middle ages, i.e. the Crusades, women embroidered and had babies. Unless they were peasants, in which case they were just about equal to men in responsibilities (farming). The books aren't sexist so much as being period-correct.

Mikorlias Zard

[Sky Warrior Bob]

Personally, I think this is a simple case of over analyzing. I think Tolkien may very well have based the various races & characters on existing cultures and peoples, but I don't think he was insinuating anything by it.

I mean, he didn't want a faceless, mindless enemy and went on to create races & cultures using examples that he was familar with. Sure, he could have gone the politically correct way of trying to develop entirely new cultures, so as not to offend anyone, but it'd be a whole lot of bother, and might have ruined the story.

SWB

[Illuminatus]

Hey! Dammit MuffinMage, if you're gonna pick apart my post at least acknowledge that its me!

Still, Muffin is right, I should have been more specific. All those things are limited in their applicability. Middle-Earth is Europe, Numenor is Atlantis and so, to an extent. Same goes for the creation story. After Iluvatar/God casts Melkor/Lucifer out of the heavens, the resemblance ends.

Hmm...this thread is a wee bit off topic.

[Dante]

Personally, I think this is a simple case of over analyzing. I think Tolkien may very well have based the various races & characters on existing cultures and peoples, but I don't think he was insinuating anything by it.

I mean, he didn't want a faceless, mindless enemy and went on to create races & cultures using examples that he was familar with. Sure, he could have gone the politically correct way of trying to develop entirely new cultures, so as not to offend anyone, but it'd be a whole lot of bother, and might have ruined the story.

SWB

I guess all this goes to show that you can find evidence for anything if you search hard enough.

[Blasphemous]

You're right, up to a point. Endor (the name of Io's creation, which happens to be a planet) is Earth. Of course, that would make Valinost America. And there would have to be lands far to the east and south that aren't mentioned.

Endor = Planet from Star Wars Universe
Eä / Arda = World in which Middle-Earth is main continent

Io = Greco-roman god (can't recall who) and also major god in the Discworld, also name of a small moon that revolves around Jupiter
Eru Illuvatar = Creator-God-Guy in Tolkien's universe

Valinost = ???
Valinor = Blessed land in Eä.

Land in the east = Rhûn
Lands in the south = Near Harad, Far Harad, Umbar, Khand, and more.


I had other more serious points but I forgot them. probably because other people already answered them (or simply cause I'm tired and sick. =\)

[Illuminatus]

Endor= BOTH

I have my Middle-Earth atlas right here. The sphere itself is Endor (Middle-Earth)

Valinost=Valinor

Yup. Just another couple of names that mean the same thing.

You're right about Io. Dunno bout that. Ilu, Eru, Iluvatar, but not Io.

Come on Blasphemous, do you REALLY think that you know more than me and MuffinMage? ;)

[Lucas]

Uh, it might be me.. but no one's mentioned that tolkien was partly a theologist.. his name is on the list of translators for the new jerusalem bible and others...

The entire middle earth buisness is tolkien's adaptation of the bible into a bedtime story for his son, or something, which makes a heck of a lot of sense in certain places (jesus/gandalf parallels)

[Sky Warrior Bob]

Uh, it might be me.. but no one's mentioned that tolkien was partly a theologist.. his name is on the list of translators for the new jerusalem bible and others...

The entire middle earth buisness is tolkien's adaptation of the bible into a bedtime story for his son, or something, which makes a heck of a lot of sense in certain places (jesus/gandalf parallels)

No, I don't think Lord of the Rings can be boiled down into an allegory, or an adaption of any one influence or story. Yes, Tolkien might have allowed the Bible to influence his writing, as well as using what he knew of World War II, and other wars, to shape how his battles enfolded.

I mean, I could point to Rohan of having a Beowulf connection, in the way the society is set up (Something I picked up from the DVD). If fact, while I didn't watch it fully, there's a whole big story on Tolkien's influences on the Two Towers Extended Edition. Which suggests a number of elements that affected Tolkien's life.

I mean, did you know that Tolkien and a tight knit group of intellectuals (includding CS Lewis) were really into Greek classicial lit, as well as old english sources ala Beowulf?

Anyway, Lord of the Rings is a story in of itself. Sure some elements may have origins from elsewhere (its been suggested that Treebeard was based on CS Lewis, as Lewis was infamous for a booming sort of voice), but it isn't anything in particular.

SWB

[Crodevillian Team]

I'm quite sure everyone knows this already, but I don't see that it's been mentioned.

Tolkien's work was heavily influenced by Norse mythology. (Which much of the Final Fantasy series is, as well.) In Norse mythology, humans live on Midgard, or Middle Earth. The name of the character Gandalf comes from the Norse writing "The Poetic Edda." The concept of the "Nine Rings" comes from Odin's ring Draupnir, which made eight copies of itself on every ninth night. The cursed ring, the Nazgul, dwarves, etc., all have parallels to Norwegian mythology. I invite you all to visit this particular site (http://www.geocities.com/licia_north/norse.html) for a more detailed comparison.

Most modern fantasy and role-playing games have their roots in Norse mythology. Fire Giants, Ice Giants, Elves, Dwarves and so on and so forth all derive from Norwegian myths. Without them, it's likely the fantasy genre would be extraordinarily different (and boring).

With his interest in mythology, it seems unlikely to me that Tolkien was in any way attempting to parallel his writings to any particular event. I think he used his many influences, (Norse mythology most of all), and simply crafted an interesting story.

[Crodevillian Team]

Apologies for the double post, (I meant to edit my old post, not create a reply) but it appears that the site has exceeded its Bandwith. I'll post the relevent text, and ask you to visit the site later when its bandwith is restored. The link is http://www.geocities.com/licia_north/norse.html

The Norse Elements in LotR:


(Tolkien terms in bold)


The Ainur (Valar and Maiar), the "Holy Ones" - Comparable to these two orders of first beings in 'The Silmarillion' are the Norse gods themselves, who were divided into two factions--the older race of VANIR and the younger AESIR (of which Odin and his contemporaries were members).

The Ring of Power- There are numerous "rings of power" in Norse myth. The most famous was called DRAUPNIR, and was Odin's own ring. It was forged by the dwarf brothers Sindri and Brokk, and every ninth night the ring dripped gold to make eight copies of itself. Unlike Tolkien's One Ring, DRAUPNIR represented the fertility and power of the world.

Another more infamous ring was called ANDVARINAUT, forged by the dwarf Andvari as the prize of his own immense hoard of gold. When the wicked god Loki demanded the ring, Andvari put a curse on it to cause the doom of whoever wore it. And the curse worked--it caused the maiden Brynhild to kill herself when her lover Sigurd gave her the ring as a gift (she became convinced Sigurd had betrayed her). It also caused Fafnir to slay his own father Hreidmar in greed to protect his treasure. Fafnir later used the ring's power to turn himself into a dragon to guard this treasure (not unlike Smaug in 'The Hobbit').

Dwarves - There are many dwarves (or 'dwarfs') throughout Norse myth, and like Tolkien's creations, they were all great forgers and builders. ALVIS, for example, made the weapons of the gods, including Thor's great hammer. ANDVARI, like Celebrimbor, was a ring-forger. As were brothers SINDRI and BROKK, the underground hermit LAURIN, and ALBERICH, who forged a ring of power that caused a great war among the giants and lead to an ages-long search by desperate Odin and his contemporaries.

Bilbo and Gollum - There's a story in Norse myth about a hero named DIETRICH who won a ring from the dwarf LAURIN, who ruled a magnificent underground kingdom. After a test of wits, Dietrich won the ring, as well as a magic cape of invisibility.

Bilbo and the Trolls - Alvis, the dwarf who forged the weapons of the gods, was promised the hand in marriage of Thor's own daughter. Thor did not approve of this at all, so he tested Alvis' wisdom, questioning and arguing with the dwarf until dawn's first light, when Alvis turned to stone.

The Nazgûl - It might sound like a stretch, but Tolkien's black riders share many similarities with Odin's VALKYRIES. More modernly seen as more feminine symbols of courage, early Valkyries were bloodthirsty demons of death who ravaged battlefields astride bat-winged dragons, enslaved by their lust for Odin's ring Draupnir.

Aragorn & Arwen - The beautiful Norse goddess of fertility, FREYJA, had a human lover OTTAR, who was the leader of a nomadic band of mercenary warriors. Freyja was the possessor of the Brisings necklace, and wore it to ensure Ottar's devotion, as it enhanced her already divine beauty. When obligations of the mortal world threatened to pull Ottar away, Freyja sacrificed the necklace in order to obtain the magic to keep Ottar with her in the immortal world.

The Mearas - Odin had an eight-legged stallion named SLEIPNIR ("Glider"). He was the swiftest horse of all horses and could travel over sea and through the air.

Aragorn - Almost every religion in the world has a figure with a destiny similar to Aragorn's "triumphant return of the king." The Egyptians have OSIRIS, the Sumerians had TAMMUZ, and the Greeks had ADONIS. The Celts had KING ARTHUR, who's supposed with his Knights of the Roung Table when needed. And the Norse had BALDER, a poetic and beautiful god tricked into death who returned to rule. Even CHRIST fits into this description.

Middle-earth - Norse plane of MIDGARD, the home of humankind.

[Derek R.]

I've been laughing so hard from reading this thread. Blue vans and Matrix Magus' indeed. :D

[Lucas]

my post was originally really short, because i sorta dislike using all my time to make long posts, but the point was that no one had examined the obvious theological connection between LoTR and the bible.

also, the story DID start out as a bible interpretation, just with names and characters coming from other literature.

anyways, rock on jedalf

[Derek R.]

But we are in agreement that this man is dumb and should be stoned for his ignorance?

[Martyr]

Stoned is a bit harsh.

He needs his tongue cut out.

Maybe some labotomyesque operation to impair the use of hands so he can't write down stupid ideas either.

[Derek R.]

And -then- we stone him?

[Muffin Mage]

Nah. Apply a white-hot poker to his abdominal area for a few minutes, and pop his spleen.

Or stone him, whichever is easier.

[Derek R.]

We could all participate with a good old fashioned biblical stoning. Group fun!

[TheZeroMan]

On the random connecting thing from Tolkien to other sources check this one out.

These I've come up with randomly though I suppose others who are much smarter than me have alreasdy thought of:

The the riders of Rohan resemble Normans. I.e Vikings that settled down and focused on becoming a heavy calvary. In the books they were wandering and helped defend gondor and thus were given the land, I believe if look through history you can find other examples of a people giving land to travellers who could defend the land. The british hired danes and vikings to protect them from other danes and vikings.(with mixed results )

The Easterlings and southerns may resemble africans, middle easterners, and such because that just what people would look like if you evolved in that climate... that just seems logical to me.

Though who looks at the Uruk-hai and says THEY LOOK LIKE ME!

Gondor seems almost like the Roman empire. Period of warring , Long period of peace, then slowly crumbles, splits in two, and one half survives. Arnor and Gondor. Roman half of the empire and the Greek half.

The Wild men seem very germanic, and are constantly haassing the more civilized kingdoms....

I don't think that JRR actually wrote his books and mythology setting out to parrellel anything but he just drew on all his sources as any good writer does...

anyway yea.

[Dante]

We could all participate with a good old fashioned biblical stoning. Group fun!

Not for the stonees, but hey, I'm in.

*Goes to call a Hulking Hurler from the RP forum*

[Tor]

We could all participate with a good old fashioned biblical stoning. Group fun!

Why does Monthy Python come in mind?

-Are there any women here?

[Devon Lake]

We could all participate with a good old fashioned biblical stoning. Group fun!

Don't you think pithy posts about slaughtering a poster are a little... dumb for a discussion topic? I dunno, it just reminds me of the whole, "NEWBIE! ME EATS YOUR FACE!" stuff...

Anyhow, it's pretty obvious that Tolkien was influenced by stuff; The whole "One ring to rule them all" things is the EXACT same plot as the Nibelungenlied (Or whatever) Tolkien was more inspired by stuff than copying it. There's so many bits and peices from different European literary traditions (Especially mythological lore) that it really can't be the rip off of any one thing.

I'm sure WWI was influential to, because if you look at literary history pretty much every writter of the era was influenced by the great war. Even the scenery. He describes the good places as fool of trees and nice and natury, and the evil places pretty close to Industrial Revolution city filthy; it's not that it's social comentary, it's jsut that his preferences for living space peaked into all of that pathetic fallacy stuff.

[Viktor Von Russia]

I'm really surprised that people are surprised (I think somewhere, my grammar teacher is crying) by the similarities that Tolkien made between Middle Earth and, well, Earth. The name he chose to give his world is a pretty good indication that he didn't want to create a world all that dissimilar from our own.

The WWI references are probably the most frequent among the similarities. Mordor aka Germany vs. the western Allies I thought was pretty obvious. I recall hearing somewhere that the Dead Marshes were inspired by the piles of bodies in the war.

[Muffin Mage]

Tolkien spent most of his time in sub-Saharan Africa, and didn't see many piled bodies.

Just letting you know.

[Lycanthrope]

Um... I've heard much to the conterary. How can Mordor not be inspired by a WWI battlefield. The following description can be applied to both:
The flash of fire and thunder rumble in the distance as a cloud of smoke obscures the very sun itself. the land is bleak, burnt, scarred. Hords of enemies wait just over the next rise, waiting to kill with overwhelming force. Poisonous vapors swirl through the air.

As for the entire racist question, I find myself agreeing with Zero. Arda (the world of middle earth and its surrounding continents) was openly made to resemble Earth in many reguards. I believe tolkien comments that the men of the South and East were not so much evil as misguided into supporting sauron. In the middle ages, cultural and national identity was one in the same. Groups of people and ethnicities often went to war, although often spirred by religious biggotry, (note, crusades). In Lord of the Rings, Sauron managed to dominate the lands of the south and east through subtle intrigue, and managed to rally their alliance in the battle. Also note that either Merry or Pippen (I can't remember which one) did say, when Faromer whent off to fight the men of the south, that he did not like to see men battle amongst themselves. As for the Uruk resembling the native americans, wtf? I don't even see where that's coming from at all.

[Derek R.]

There are rumors that they'll be a Hobbit coming next.

[Muffin Mage]

With bad logic, you could say that black is purple...

Anywho, no. Tolkien was most definitely deployed to South Africa.

And I don't want there to be a Hobbit. Peter Jackson couldn't pull it off.

[Mashirosen]

Discussion of the potential Hobbit movie isn't germane to this topic -- please either start a thread for it in General or take it to e-mail.

Tolkien was born in South Africa, he was never "deployed" there. Born in Bloemfontien in 1892, he only lived there until he was three, when with his brother and mother he moved to Birmingham, England. He did serve in WWI, as a second lieutenant in the 11th Lancashire Fusiliers, and in fact saw action in the Battle of the Somme. Which is considerably further north on the world map than, say, Tanzania, and is in fact in France. (Sam Gamgee is by Tolkien's own admission largely based on the lower-class "grunts" who served in the trenches alongside him, whom he "recognized as so far superior to myself".)

An argument against Tolkien's "racism" lies in an incident that happened in the early 1930s, when German publishers interested in translating and printing the Hobbit for German audiences contacted Tolkien, asking if he was Aryan. His sneering reply:

" .... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is, Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."

Tolkien, as a lifelong devotee of ancient Nordic culture, hated the Nazis. In 1938 he was vocal about his disgust for their "wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine", and in 1941 he wrote to his son Michael (who was training as a cadet in the British army):

" .... I have in this War a burning private grudge — which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler .... Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble, northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light."

So while this obviously doesn't prove that Tolkien never held anything like what we would currently consider a racist attitude, it certainly shows that he was never a subscriber to anything like Nazi ideology regarding race -- it seems likely to me that he might even have rejected some of his own previous racial prejudices to distance himself further from them.

[Squigy]

Well done Mashirosen. Tolkien portrayed the enemy as "dark" and the good guys as "light" because the book is about the classic fight between good and evil. NOT about some racial issue. I hate all those people who try and turn anything even slightly contraversial into a racial issue. If you have nothing else to do besides whine and complain about something that happened to your grandfather's grandfather, then just dont post. No one did anything to you, so just shut up.

[Quackzilla]

well, technically:

generaly in places like that people evolve white, you know?
dark skin is a natural advantage toward the equator, where sunlight is strongest, but in a middle earth (eurpoean) setting there is no benefit so that mutation is not favored by natural selection

the undead, having rotted several times, generally have very little skin
the darkness is from rotting muscle mass thats either exposed or showing through the rotted skin

conclusion:
no racism

[Lycanthrope]

Southrons were not from Middle Earth. They were from a different continent, south of middle earth.

Edit: This continent was named Harad, for anyone who cares.

[Apletto]

Tolkien's work was heavily influenced by Norse mythology.

With his interest in mythology, it seems unlikely to me that Tolkien was in any way attempting to parallel his writings to any particular event. I think he used his many influences, (Norse mythology most of all), and simply crafted an interesting story.

Technically his work was heavily influenced by Old English mythology and writing, which is almost identical to Norse, because they were originally Norse. So when he wanted to write a 'British Mythology' he delved into the mythological heritage of Britain in Old English and Icelandic writings.

As to paralleling any real event. It doesn't. He said so. He wrote essays saying so. These essays said that myth or 'fairy stories' were stories that were true even though they never happened(like 2+2=4 or more closely the Tortoise and the Hair). He was trying, in writing a myth, to convey 'Truth' as he knew it. Much as the Tortoise and the Hair conveys a moral, Tolkien tried to convey an entire worldview by creating an entire world, creation to end.

It was an almost subtle way of conveying what he believed to others in a form that people would excep and enjoy. That's why he spent the rest of his life after starting it trying to make it all consistent and 'right'(in his eyes).