"Killographic" is ridiculous, but bigoted certainly describes it...

[Macro]

Take a look at this article... (http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/fun.games/01/01/videogame.suit.ap/index.html)

I also saw a variation of the article at Penny Arcade, and I think i have a different view than a lot of people. Let me break it down:

Apparently some game creators think it's okay to target nationalities for hate crimes in video games. Some justify it by saying "there are all kinds of groups targeted in video games." However, just because Germans, Italians, Cubans etc. have already been targeted it doesn't mean that it should be done. For example, during World War II some popular comic books used to portray Germans and African Americans as scum. Now we look back in disgust at that kind of blatant racism. What makes it okay now for us to target hate crimes against specific nationalities in video games?

And here's another way to see it if you're not a member of a minority group. How would you feel if, instead of minorities, the game ordered players to target members of your personal religious faith? Would you then think that it was ridiculous to take a stand for your group?

[VideoDrone]

IMO, this is just ridiculous. It's a game. It's not meant to hurt anyone or belittle a race, creed, or nationality. It's vulgar and violent in order to sell, because violence sells, and it has sold famously. Yes, many games out there that depict characters killing Germans, Italians, Cubans, Iraqis, Russians, Ukrainians, AMERICANS, any nationality you can think of. But when members of one group attack the makers of the game, to me they come off as absurdly insecure, as if they feel that they have to make a stand in order to maintain respect. Honestly, does anyone respect Haitians any less after killing them in a video game?

And here's another way to see it if you're not a member of a minority group. How would you feel if, instead of minorities, the game ordered players to target members of your personal religious faith? Would you then think that it was ridiculous to take a stand for your group?My answer to that is yes, I certainly would think it was ridiculous. Because people need to learn to separate fantasy from reality. It's like saying everyone who plays violent video games will become a violent person (hence killographic). Those comic books and things during WWII were propaganda meant to rile the spirits of Americans. No one is trying to turn people against Hatians in Grand Theft Auto. It's just easier to say "kill the Hatian gang" than "kill the crime syndicate run by a random group of people whose nationality will not be named for sensitive reasons." Remember, in most games the most violent, sadistic, despicable characters are white males. But are there any white males complaining about being type-cast as the evil villians/uber-criminals?

[Dante]

If they're only asking for $15k in damages, apparently they don't take it very seriously...

[The Devil Himself]

This is just stupid. I think the people are only sueing because they couldn't win the lawsuit for GTA: VC being too violent of a game.

[Krylo]

But are there any white males complaining about being type-cast as the evil villians/uber-criminals?

Of course not! Uber-criminals and evil villians are cool. Why would I complain? Hah.


Seriously though... I'm with Video Drone on this. The whole thing is stupid. Hell, in GTA games you get 'points' of a sort for killing anyone, because it increases the police spending, and gives you more 'points' for every person killed regardless of nationality. At least in the one that I have, they have a screen that scrolls through showing how much stuff you've blown up, etc. There's nothing about hate crimes in GTA, it's about organized crime. Organized crime is often racist, not in that they commit hate crimes, but that you have a hatian mob, an italian mob, a russian mob, etc. You don't see many hatians in the italian mob, and vice versa, so by saying "Kill the Hatians" in that context, only a complete moron would think they mean kill all hatians. They mean kill the hatian gangsters and get whatever it is the employers need/deliver the message to them. That's just a fact of the world. Because a game is 'realistic' that doesn't mean that it's 'racist'. It means the world can be somewhat racist in certain degrees. Also, let's remember that this game is rated MA (for very good reasons), and although you may be able to argue that it COULD cause racism/violence in children, I find it hard to believe that taking down a hatian mob is going to make any adult that isn't already racist hate hatians.

P.S. Killographic is the coolest word ever. So long as you redefine it to mean 'cool'.

[Crodevillian Team]

I understand your sentiments, and perhaps share some of your concern. I do not, however, find it to be horribly offensive.

As a somewhat rational, on-and-off again thinking man, I understand that video games as currently produced are not intended to be taken as messages of hate. I would find it hard to believe that the producers at Rockstar Games have some personal vendetta against the people of Haiti.

I do believe, however, that in order to express a remote semblance of realism in GTA: VC, the producers included real ethnic groups. In the GTA series there are a myriad of races involved in crime: There's Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian and African-American. The game is set in Miami in the 1980's, and is intended to be (somewhat) realistic. I imagine it would be difficult to portray a sense of reality if you were sent to kill a group of Snargalites, or if there was tension between the Boombalarg's from Sneed and the Trippodorians from Blah. The immersion factor is sort of lost when human races and countries are invented.

Someone has to be the bad guy, and in GTA, it seems everyone's the bad guy. No specific race is targeted because every race is targeted. That, to me, is not so offensive.

If, on the other hand, Rockstar came out with a game called Grand Theft Haitian, then I would find cause to be offended.

[Lost in Time]

Killographic is a cool sounding word, just like stuponfucious (see: Penny Arcade).

But anyway, video games are just there to entertain you. They are not ment to encourage you to shoot or put down someone. I have played GTA: VC and I find it fun and never once I felt the urge to walk out to the street with a gun and shoot everybody I see. I'm sure the people that play the game belive everything they see or they are extreamly depressed and were going to shoot someone anyway. I just feel.. ugh. Bottom line: Games are made to entertain you, not make the world a worse place.

[Atronflame]

My girlfriend happens to be Muslim, and an Arab... but I cant help enjoying blowing Arab terrorists away in video games. Its not that I loathe the race, or anything of the sort... because, I myself, am part german, and even though that holds true (I even had people claiming at one point I was related to Hitler... I think that was a few years back? I got smart and told them to fuck themselves) I still enjoy wasting Nazi's in the countless number of World War II games that I have. If theres anything I cant get enough of (besides certain obvious things Im not going to mention) its World War 2 video games. I dont know, I love D-Day scenarios. Pulse pounding heart stopping chaotic action, people dying, shit blowing up all over the place, screams, gunshots... Ok, so its not exactly the greatest happiest place in the world...
But the adrenaline rush is WAY better than cutting yourself, as Ive realized, and its a lot healthier and far more socially accepted.

Some people have to realize, that if a game puts a race in a game... what else are they gonna do? If they wanna have ANY credibility, if the enemy is terrorist, then its fairly obvious youre going to have a nation or mercenaries...

Like, German mercs, German Nazis, Arabic Terrorists, Chinese Terrorists... etc. I think its fairly obvious that terrorist groups portrayed in media and video games / movies make it to a standard to where they all have one culture / race / region in a certain group.

But, as with everything, you're bound to have a few bad apples. People look to this as an excuse to blame things they dont understand for racism and violence against creeds of all kinds. Violence against other nations, to where people develop a bias against nations and eventually start to hate them.

I can say, after playing Call of Duty, I have never considered a Russian more stupid. I mean, damn man, the russian kid in my class made me think (all his averages in classes are 30's or less... I mean, damn, it takes EFFORT to get that low in 8th grade), but after seeing the Body Count after the FIRST MISSION in the Russian campaign, and how they treated the war... my god, it was ridiculous. Maybe its not entirely true, but this was times of Stalin. "Protector of the People's Defense" Stalin. Yeah right. Haha, when you start with 15,000 troops and have 160 left over you KNOW something is wrong. Especially if its just one battle.

Religion in video games is almost unheard of. I have never played a game where you have to target people of a specific religion... because, simply, you just cant get away with it. You can argue all you like that your character is of a different religion, but you'll be stopped in your tracks so many times its just... not possible. Unless the religion is made up or heretic, its bound to draw a HUGE amount of critisicm / hate... Its like taking control of Hitler in a video game and trying to exterminate a religion.

It just cant be done...

[BMHadoken]

I agree, we need more words like killographic...hell, we need to title a movie Killographic...

But seriously, we're talking about a game, where, no matter what you hit the people with, then gush blood vertically. If you can show that to any person, and he tells you that its realistic...

[Mr. Viewtiful]

I swear, there must be a "Top 10 To-sue" list that all these greedy people use, and I believe GTA takes up at least 20% of that list. C'mon, people! If you're poor, and you want money, try getting a job instead of sueing Videogame Companies! And parents! It's YOUR job to raise kids, not the PS2!!! [/rant]

Honestly, people need to seperate fantasy from reality, like what you guys said. Heck, some people don't give a crap. For instance, look at Medal of Honor: Rising Sun. It's WW2 in Japan, in which you are an American killing Japaneze, and its sold tons of copies!

I believe this is all an act of greed, not true morals (in some cases).

[Crodevillian Team]

I can say, after playing Call of Duty, I have never considered a Russian more stupid.

I'm not sure what you were arguing for, but if you were saying that video games don't influence people, then that one statement totally destroyed your arguments.

Your wording is ambiguous. Are you saying that, after playing Call of Duty, it has made you think that Russians are stupid? That Stalingrad mission was not meant to show how stupid the Soviets were; For one, Stalingrad was an extremely important city. Were it to remain under siege, The Soviet Union would most likely have fallen. The Battle for Stalingrad was a turning point in the war. The Soviets were desperate. To lose Stalingrad would be a major blow to the Soviet effort- The Soviet Union could fall- The two front war would end- Germany would have access to a huge amount of natural resources- the American involvement in the war would have been hurt. As well, Stalin himself ordered "Not a step backwards." Soviet officers would shoot any who refused to fight, or who fled. Finally, resources were low. There weren't enough rifles for every man.

The only choice Stalin had was, unfortunately, to throw bodies at the German forces. The Germans had superior firepower and more efficient strategies. It was not a stupid decision, just unfortunate. Those Soviet conscripts were not stupid. They were extraordinarily brave given the conditions, and eventually ousted the Germans and reclaimed Stalingrad.

At any rate, I knew quite a few Caucasians who suffered far lower GPA's than a 30. Besides, such a low GPA doesn't necessarily denote stupidity. Mostly it's a sign of apathy and underachievement. Quite a few brilliant people suffer from this affliction.


But the adrenaline rush is WAY better than cutting yourself

I would have to think that *ANYTHING* is better than cutting yourself. Unless your name is Kakihara, something is seriously wrong.

[Atronflame]

Kakihara? Wha? lol
I simply stated that a whole lot of people need to get over the fact that people need to get over the fact that video games arent going to do anything to people...

And I had the anti-russian sort of thing (I still like them, and whatnot, I just think theyre stupid XD) in progress as it was... the Call of Duty thing just made me look at the facts. Not the fact that I was blowing them away made me look down on them.

And I do realize that it was a major turning point for the russians, but JESUS, man. Throwing a wall of bodies against a wall of bullets is horrendous. War back then was terrible... I know for a fact, that at times during video games, I enjoy the game and sometimes wish I could have been alive then... then my teammate gets shot in the face and killed and I go 'egh... never mind.'

And mind you, I find myself far more Apathetic than my friend Max... and yet, somehow, I manage to annihilate my classmates with grades. Well, mebbe not all of them (damn you katie, damn you! Youre not SUPPOSED to make a 101 in Social studies! BAH!) He doesnt suffer from Apathy or underachievement. We were doing something and he smacks a glass beaker, and it shattered. Teacher was so pissed at him. We then adopted the rule that he couldnt touch the science equipment on his own anymore.

And its not that I find all Russians stupid, its the fact that... I find what they did incredibly stupid. And Max is stupid. Hehe.

Yes, I did contradict myself on the fact that video games have changed me to think Russians are a little bit dumber than the average bear, but it wasnt through violence or any other means... but by the debriefing of the mission. "Congratulations, Alexi! You, of the 15,000 men in your platoon, are one of the 162 survivors! We're promoting you to officer!" My ass. That right there got me. Haha.

(And on cutting myself, Im just NOT going to go there. I was simply making a point. Im hoping to keep that as far out of my mind as possible.)

[Truce]

These people are not racists, and I've often tried to figure out a good name for them. They are usually on the other extreme end of the spectrum, opposite of racists. I now call them imps, based off the monsters that are small minded, annoying in masses, and rather stubborn.
I usually refuse to make comments on topics like this because a rational person can see that this kind of act is just stupid. Also, there is no way to convince a person that it isn't if they're already in that mindset just through talking. Often it takes a hard and heavy lesson for them to learn that.

PS: Actually, there are a few things worse then cutting yourself, 'course I'm not about to give anyone any ideas.

[Crodevillian Team]

Kakihara? Wha? lol

I take it you haven't seen Takashi Miike's "Ichi the Killer." It's okay; I'm sure not many have- It's not anime.

Throwing a wall of bodies against a wall of bullets is horrendous... I find what they did incredibly stupid.

Yes. It was horrendous. I'm not disputing that fact. Like many Civil War battles, the strategy was simply "charge the guns until they run out of ammunition." But this wasn't an act of Soviet stupidity. I hate to reiterate myself, but it appears I was ignored: The Soviets didn't say, "Hey, comrade! I have an *EXCELLENT* plan! Let's rush the German machine gun positions! It's fail-proof." Did you not see the guys crying behind the rubble? It wasn't a mindless advance. On one side, they faced German gunners. On the other, they faced their own officers, acting under Stalin's order, who were just as willing to put a bullet in them. The Soviet conscripts- draftees, that is- had no choice.

The Soviets *had* to retake Stalingrad. It was absolutely necessary. They could not accept defeat, for that would mean the end. It was a desperate act. It was the only choice. I wouldn't dare call that stupidity- That is courage at its pinnacle. They knew they would probably die. But the continuation of their nation, of their families, depended on them. I admire them completely.

Horrendous, yes. Cruel, absolutely. Stupid? Not in the least.

but by the debriefing of the mission. "Congratulations, Alexi! You, of the 15,000 men in your platoon, are one of the 162 survivors! We're promoting you to officer!"

What else are they supposed to tell you? "You might as well lay down and die, Alexi. Everyone else already has." The entire purpose is to keep morale as high as possible. They promoted you because you survived. In a time of war, it's generally a good idea to do everything in your power to keep your soldiers happy. Making good from bad is a crucial part of the process.

(And on cutting myself, Im just NOT going to go there. I was simply making a point. Im hoping to keep that as far out of my mind as possible.)

You invite intrigue when you bring it up in the first place. If it's not something you wish discussed, questioned, or criticized, I advise you to not say it at all.

[Atronflame]

The only reason I mentioned it in the first place was because, to an extent, the purpose of a first person shooter game is to relieve stress and boredom in the form of a fast paced, risky, dangerous environment... while, on the whole, causing virtually no harm to the player, (except for the random bashing head against the desk / keyboard or smashing hands on desks / computers) and give you an adrenaline rush. In a lot of ways, that adrenaline rush is what a lot of people go for in video games. Games that can get you pumped up get played more than games that cant. Simple as that. What are they called? Endorphins? Im simply saying that playing violent video games (whether against russians, germans, chinese, americans, indians, romans, etc...) is a better output than anything else. I merely placed in cutting yourself to an extent that it can be used in the same way... but playing Violent Video games is FAR more acceptable... which is kinda funny, considering all this time people in courts are trying to rule that video games cant be violent... while, at the same time, movies and television shows are getting far more graphic and less child-friendly.

And ok, so you have a point. The wall of bodies was incredibly brash. Incredibly daring. Incredibly courageous. It wasnt stupid. It was the way they achieved their means. And it worked. So I guess I cant call it stupid. And the fact they didnt really have a choice kinda remedies the 'stupidity' as well.

I guess its more of an urge to call it stupid because I simply cant accept the... 14338 casualties in one unit. And yeah, they were extremely fear driven. Which is why Im glad I live in today... Im positive that I wont be shot and killed on sight if I turn and run from a horde of machine-gun toting nazis. Its kinda scary to think of. Therefore, in my mind, stupid. Sorry if its confusing, Yes, I agree with you Croteam.

But... lets not get to far away from topic, here. ^^

[Crodevillian Team]

Games that can get you pumped up get played more than games that cant. Simple as that.

Not true. Take a look at some of the best selling, longest lasting, and most popular (world-wide) games to ever be made. A recent example: The Sims. The Sims is not a violent game. It's not first person. It doesn't really get you pumped up. Yet, it's been one of the best selling PC Games to date, and has brought many (otherwise) non-gamers into the gaming world. It has transcended the normal demographic. Why? It appeals to people on a different level than violence. It doesn't contain blood or exploding heads, but it still gets played.

Another case in point: Tetris. One of the single most non-violent games in the world, and indeed, it's played all over the world. Extremely non-violent- Extremely popular. Violence isn't necessary to sell, nor is it necessary to make something enjoyable. I know that's not what you meant, but it's sort of implied.

Im simply saying that playing violent video games (whether against russians, germans, chinese, americans, indians, romans, etc...) is a better output than anything else.

It's a good output, but not the best. Exercise releases far more endorphins, and is much healthier. It relieves stress, as well.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Mashirosen says: I'm pretty racist about pointless spamming in debate topics. And yes, this is a warning.

[Lucas]

Another case in point: Tetris. One of the single most non-violent games in the world, and indeed, it's played all over the world

tetris ALWAYS gets you pumped up

duh.. that's why there's russian techno

[Devon Lake]

I remember my brother’s friend taking a turn on Vice City in my room once. He was shooting up Haitians with a minigun I think and shouting "Die you fucking niggers!" or something to that effect.

Now, does anyone really think that if the Haitians were portrayed as an industrious entrepreneurial class with a beneficial peaceful influence on Vice City my brother’s dear friend "Scruffy Garbage Scum" would be thinking any differently? I mean, the only thing they could do to stop racists is take black people out entirely, and really that would end up getting 10 times the PC backlash. Or they could just make all the civilians bulletproof, but try marketing that.

This reminds me of that comedians bit. He was going on about affirmative action in the police force and then noted, "You don't see the criminals going, 'we need more Latinos and African Americans because we need to show that we're a diverse representation of Canadian society’," That's why there's no "Rainbow of Races" gang, or "Hands Across America" gang.

Most people who get into organized crime tend to be from poor, underprivileged backgrounds. It also happens to be true that a lot of immigrants fresh off the boat don’t wind up filthy rich and tend to rely on their communal ties for assistance. Usually you just wind up with productive community initiatives and charities, and stuff like that, but that applies for crime to. Thus, we have ethnic gangs.

If anything is racist about Vice City, it’s really just the sort of stereotypes they give people, and that’s more something to write a letter as a customer and suggest they knock it off rather than something to sue about. I certainly wouldn’t like it if they threw in a gay gang and it was filled with nothing but bitchy whiny self-loathing pansies, but it’s not it’s worth my time to care. If they start making GTA games where the missions are like, “Kill blacks and gays because they don’t deserve to live,” that would be different. Now it’s more like, “Kill the Haitians and the Japanese because they’re gang rivals,”

It's a good output, but not the best. Exercise releases far more endorphins, and is much healthier. It relieves stress, as well.

You say as an exorcise guy. For a good lot of people exorcise means an hour of grunting and thinking "I HATE THIS!!" rather than stress releif. It's really different for different people. Although, some stress releivers like writting and comicing just suck (Atleast in my case because I'm an annal-retentive little perfectionist. BAH! Why must it be so hard to draw complex figures in motion with no template!)

[Illuminatus]

Quote: "For a good lot of people, exorcise means an hour of grunting and thinking "I HATE THIS" rather than stress relief"

Actually for me, exorcise has more to do with a chanting Priest, demonic voices and eyes rolled back into heads. ;)

The thing is about GTA Vice City is that, well, it portrays things the way they are. People really do say things like "Kill the Haitians" in real life and there really is organized crime in this world. The problem is, most people don't want to deal with that, so they blame the makers of the realistic movie/game/book/etc. Rockstar games is not a "racist" company. It's an honest one.

[Devon Lake]

Actually for me, exorcise has more to do with a chanting Priest, demonic voices and eyes rolled back into heads.

Oh don't be a grammar queen, everyone screws up sometimes and thanks to all the spell and grammar checks on Word you should consider yourself lucky that mixing up homonyms is usually the worst you get from me.

[Spiffy]

Quote "Living in miami has shown me that there are racial gangs, so instead of complaining to game makers about showing truthful violence shouldn't you be complaining to the the mayor of your city" End quote.

I think this lawsuit is silly, I mean 15,000 for damages! What damages?! Soon we're going to have to put warnings on videogames that say "no actual people were harmed in the making of this game."

I don't know I'd be grunting and saying " I hate this" if i needed an exorcisim. On a sidenote i like exercise.
Spiffy Has Spoken.