Ultimate Marvel

[ElfLad]

Yeah, I've been into this lately, especially Ultimate Xmen and Ultimate Spider-man. I think that it was a cool way to get rid of the years of build-up of backstory (Especially X-men. I get dizzy whenever I even pick it up. So we've got Nightcrawler's daughter from another dimension; Wolverine's female clone from Weapon X; Scott and Jean's daughter with nigh-invincible god-powers; Juggernaut's good now; Polaris is slightly evil/psychotic; Sage is the Black Queen; etc. But I digress...) So I really, really like Ultimate Marvel, and I was wondering how the rest of you felt about it.

[Elmer J.]

I got into comics around the time they came out so i now read Ultimate Marvel exclusively. It's not as much the ridding of backstory as the grittier style that gets me. I miss the earlier Ultimate X-men art, it seems a little odd these days. Like the difference between Gambit in "You always remember your first love" and in "Cry Wolf" The Ultimates got me pretty hooked, as well. "Permission to traumatize Banner." Doesn't get much more badass than that. Also, I can picture Spiderman as looking pretty damn cool in Ultimates uniform. Unfortunately, I never have the funds to keep up a comic habit. If I ever become considerably wealthy, I intend to but up a complete set of the collected graphic novels.

I still wish they would have taken it a bit farther, though. It is now my dream to one day produce a set of uber-gritty and relatively scientifically plausible Marvel Graphic Novels.

[gurusloth]

Yeah, the Ultimate Marvel thing is a cool idea that has panned out well. I'm currently getting Ultimates, Ult. Spidey, Ult. FF, Ult. Iron Man, and whatever limited series there are going on (right now Ult. Secret I think). Just read the Ult. Spidey Annual, very cool Ult. X-Men crossover with Kitty Pride and Peter going on a date. It ruled.

[Nique]

Ugh. I can't stand the Ultimate Series;
1) becuase of the name. "Ultimate"? That's some insulting marketing - "ohhhh you see, I MUST buy it... it is "ULTIMATE"!"
2)Great. An essential reboot. Screwing up the continuity of fairly key charecters like Carnage, also (formerly?) known as Cledus Kassidy, not to mention a very horrible retelling of the origins of The Green Goblin himself, is not OK.
3)Super-duper! A reboot in THE MIDST of other spider-man continuitys! Can you say 'unnesscery confusion'?

I hate to say it, but DC did it better with 'Crisis On Infinite Earths'.

I will say this though - I like the artist(s) working on Ultimate Spider-Man. Clean, simple, easy on the eyes and a good-looking Mary Jane Watson. Yummy.

[gurusloth]

1) becuase of the name. "Ultimate"? That's some insulting marketing - "ohhhh you see, I MUST buy it... it is "ULTIMATE"!"Yeah, the name is a bit lame, but at least it's not ... X-TREEM!2)Great. An essential reboot. Screwing up the continuity of fairly key charecters like Carnage, also (formerly?) known as Cledus Kassidy, not to mention a very horrible retelling of the origins of The Green Goblin himself, is not OK.
3)Super-duper! A reboot in THE MIDST of other spider-man continuitys! Can you say 'unnesscery confusion'?See, the thing is, it's not a reboot. The original, Cledus-friendly continuity still exists. It's more like a ... retelling. Kinda like 'West Side Story' is a retelling of 'Romeo and Juliet'. They are very different, but basically it's the same story, and both were good.

[Elmer J.]

I agree with Guru, and I like the new Carnage better.
It makes him distinct from Venom.
I am quite disappointed that Harry is the hobgoblin, though.
I always thought of Harry as the true Green goblin, even though his Dad was better at it.

[CrimsonNight]

I like a lot of the new ultimate marvel stuff (I have almost all of the volumes collected of Spidey and the X-men and other assorted stuffs) but I have to say that I'm a little concerned about it.

I can't shake this impending feeling that the series will ultimately become bloated and unintelligble like the main Marvel universe did after the peak of its silver age.

I mean, it just seems like they're adding a whole lot of Ultimate comics with very little reason to do so (other than the financial aspects). It may sell more comics for the short term, but it may ultimately (pun unintended) force marvel to have to create a new universe in another generation with the same (ugh) charecters.

Its very cool for what it is, but I like the Japanese model better. Write a comic series, let it run its course, end it, and start a new wholly different series. Tell a whole and complete story, instead of a story that is intended to last forever with no tangible ending.

I guess I'm saying it's good for right now, but it is bound to become as stagnant as its predecessors.

[gurusloth]

I guess I can see that happening eventually. As Brian (Clevinger) has stated several times, the major problem with an ongoing series of any kind is that in order to tell a compelling story, the characters have to have the freedom to grow and change organically in response to what is happening in the plot, and in an ongoing comic the goal is to keep the characters as 'the same' as possible for as long as possible. Now, some creators have attempted to avoid this pitfall, but at the end of the day some stagnation is hard to avoid. Fortunately, I think that some of the people they have at Marvel now, notably Bendis, are well aware of the threat of stagnation, and I think that the Ultimate line is a direct result of the creators realizing that a fresher, better story could be told if they just started from the beginning rather than attempt to re-vamp pre-existing comics.

I do wish that more comics were shorter lived titles. I don't mind limited series, one-shots or trade paperbacks, in fact some of my favorite comics were limited series (SuperPatriot, Ultra). From a fiscal standpoint, however, the draw of a character that really has legs and can hold an audience's attention is too great to deny.

[CrimsonNight]

I don't deny that my love for Brian Bendis' work is still at a very high point. What he has done with the Spider-man character is perhaps some of the finer story-telling in comics.

I guess, when I look at a story, since I am a writer, I like to look at all of its parts. And though super hero tales are enchanting in their own right, I believe that ultimately they fail because of their nature:

The hero can never win.

The only villians that end up defeated in any permanent fashion are the ones people never want back. All the great nemises must return, and when they do, their defeat is always anti-climactic because they are never truly defeated. There have been some stories that have, more or less tongue-in-cheek, made more than a passing note of this nature of super heros.

The reality is, since that has been done, there's really nothing else to do with villians, except have they create wholly unlikely and unbelieveable alliances (read: Batman "Hush") or just reseruct them as always. The only other option is to create new villians and further compound already unneccasarily complex stories.

I see the same flaws in the Ultimate universe that don't show now, because it is new and fresh, but I think things are starting to wear around the edges. Sales are still strong for sure, but I think there's some more complete stories out there, and when it comes down to it, I enjoy those more.

[traderjoe]

i am totallyh digging ultimate iron man. i just wish marvel could get books out on time.

trader joe

[Fifthfiend]

Ultimate iron man is enjoyable and delightfully free of Mormonalia, which is a plus for an Orson Scott Card fan nursing his wounded betrayal like a bottle of moonshine. Although really does his entire body have to be a brain, or whatever that's about? Can't people just be smart anymore?

Ultimates is the only one that feels, well, "ultimate". It's like, Ultimate Weapon X, comprising one racist redneck and one washout doctor? Not ultimate. Ultimate Whatever Carnage Was About? Not ultimate. Ultimate Hulk tearing his way through an Alien-Nazi invasion fleet and eating the Ultimate Super-Skrull? Ultimate.

I wish they'd hurry up and do whatever with Ultimate Galactus. Just, anything. Come on already.

That's all.

[edit] I lied.

But, well, I do that.

I guess I can see that happening eventually. As Brian (Clevinger) has stated several times, the major problem with an ongoing series of any kind is that in order to tell a compelling story, the characters have to have the freedom to grow and change organically in response to what is happening in the plot, and in an ongoing comic the goal is to keep the characters as 'the same' as possible for as long as possible. Now, some creators have attempted to avoid this pitfall, but at the end of the day some stagnation is hard to avoid. Fortunately, I think that some of the people they have at Marvel now, notably Bendis, are well aware of the threat of stagnation, and I think that the Ultimate line is a direct result of the creators realizing that a fresher, better story could be told if they just started from the beginning rather than attempt to re-vamp pre-existing comics.


I think the Ultimate line is somewhat symptomatic of the broader problem with comics, in that when change does come, it's big and jarring and throws everything for a loop, then things rather quickly settle down into a relatively predictable rhythm. There's no natural progression, where Character begins as A and develops gradually from B to C to D. It's more, current writer writes character as A, pretty much continues writing him as A for the length of his tenure. Next writer comes in and says you know what fuck A, forget you ever heard about A, as of RIGHT NOW Character is X! And Character stays X for the next 6 years. Then the next writer comes in and all of a sudden Character is Q, then he's F, then he's L7, then somebody sets him back to A except updated to be Ax, then Geoff Johns gets ahold of the book and you end up with cold, runny alphabet soup.

... you know I thought I knew where I was going there, until I looked at where I ended up.

[Nique]

Thats why I like Animes like Trigun - It has a run, and then the story is over.

But I would be lost without my Superman, Batman, & Spiderman storys.

[ElfLad]

I have one thing to say.

Ultimate Nightcrawler = Coolest character intro EVAR.

[Elmer J.]

You got that right, Elflad. I'm a little disappointed with the Classic turn his costume took, actually. i was thinking it would be something like Iceman's but with pants, and a t-shirt. Or maybe just pants, given how awesome Nightcrawler s and how itchy it must get.

[Fifthfiend]

You got that right, Elflad. I'm a little disappointed with the Classic turn his costume took, actually. i was thinking it would be something like Iceman's but with pants, and a t-shirt. Or maybe just pants, given how awesome Nightcrawler s and how itchy it must get.

Yeah, all of the characters' outfits kinda took a regrettable detour through the 70s.

... It did happen around the time the characters started developing actual personalities, though, so I can't get too upset.

[Tyler-The-Wizard]

I've been following the Ultimat Spider-man series for a while and I'm happy that I did. I really enjowed how they toned down Venom's origin into something less symbiote-uber-alien creature and how they've tied most of Spidey's villains to genetic manipulation. Carnage was particularly scary and horrible.

I heard that they are doing an ultimate Gal Ack Tus. Like the new name? Apparently Gal Ack Tus or whatever is a fleet of tenthousand moon sized robotic bugs or something scouring the universe for planet shaped food. It's definetly different.

[Nique]

how they've tied most of Spidey's villains to genetic manipulation.

Sorry, but I find that horribly unimaginative. Doc Ock? Venom? The Vulture?

Apparently Gal Ack Tus or whatever is a fleet of tenthousand moon sized robotic bugs or something scouring the universe for planet shaped food. It's definetly different.

Ew. No. Yuck.

[Tyler-The-Wizard]

Doc Ock has the same story as the old one except he's younger and the explosion that bonded the arms to him was caused by the Green Goblin IIRC. Venom is a sybiote designed by Peter's and Brock's fathers to cure cancer but they got more than they asked for. They haven't revealed the vulture yet to my knowledge.

[Viktor Von Russia]

Sorry, but I find that horribly unimaginative. Doc Ock? Venom? The Vulture?
Well, that one common trait set the premise for the Ultimate universe's Sinister Six. I don't know if they planned it that way, but at least there's a legitimate reason for them to get together other than to kill Spider-Man. Besides, if that's unimaginative, then all of the X-Men villains must be downright boring.

[Nique]

then all of the X-Men villains must be downright boring.

No, becuase the X-Men have a good reason to be fighting against mutants - the powers and personalitys vary far more than Spidey's villians do. X-Men has got a good story behind it, and not that spider-man doesn't, but SOME of his foes need some more support being as they are already so contrived (e.g. Hmmm... an.. octo-villian... doctor octopus! eight arms, haha!)

[Fifthfiend]

No, becuase the X-Men have a good reason to be fighting against mutants - the powers and personalitys vary far more than Spidey's villians do. X-Men has got a good story behind it, and not that spider-man doesn't, but SOME of his foes need some more support being as they are already so contrived (e.g. Hmmm... an.. octo-villian... doctor octopus! eight arms, haha!)

And seriously, I mean, if you are a parent-to-be in the Marvel Universe, and your name is, fucking, like, Joe Armageddon, or Bob Kleptoman, and you're sitting around thinking 'you know, I've always loved the sound of alliterative names'... then get ready to have a supervillain in the family, is all I'm saying. And Jesus help you if you're, like, Mike Rabbit, because Junior's going to be knocking over banks in an Easter Bunny costume and there's not a damn thing you can do.

[ElfLad]

One thing I liked about Ultimate FF is that Doc Doom is Victor van Damme. Less cheesy, but close enough to make sense.

[Viktor Von Russia]

the powers and personalitys vary far more than Spidey's villians do
How do Spidey's villains not vary in powers and personality? It's a fairly eclectic bunch.

(e.g. Hmmm... an.. octo-villian... doctor octopus! eight arms, haha!)
So is it just the names you have a problem with? I don't see what's so contrived about a dude with four mechanical arms fused into his spine. At least, not by comic book standards.

One thing I liked about Ultimate FF is that Doc Doom is Victor van Damme. Less cheesy, but close enough to make sense.
Less cheesy, but not nearly as awesome. DOOM RULES ALL! *ahem* I mean, Doom's a better name.

[Nique]

How do Spidey's villains not vary in powers and personality? It's a fairly eclectic bunch.


They share animal or elemental based themes. And its always a 'Mwah-ha! I've got to prove I'm better than that dimwitted spider-man...' I mean, Electro, Shocker, Scorpion, Doc Ock, the Vulture, Kraven, and to a lesser extent the rhino, basically all use similar MOs, and way too similar motives. They're personalities blend far too easily.

The great spider-man villains are as always, the Green Goblin & Venom, becuase they are unique... their lives in relation to Spider-Man matters to the reader.

It differs from X-men in that their villains often have deeper resons for acting the way they do - they are less-used archetypes, and therefore more interesting then the over-used archetypes (i.e. evil genius uses mechanical limbs to rob bank)

So is it just the names you have a problem with? I don't see what's so contrived about a dude with four mechanical arms fused into his spine. At least, not by comic book standards.

I'm not sure your understanding me... Its contrived to, say, come up with the name of a villian or even the basic concept (Scorpion, Doc Ock, etc) before any other aspect. All great comic writers do / have done this, but when they make it painfully obvious in today's market, I find it distracting.

[gurusloth]

They share animal or elemental based themes. And its always a 'Mwah-ha! I've got to prove I'm better than that dimwitted spider-man...' I mean, Electro, Shocker, Scorpion, Doc Ock, the Vulture, Kraven, and to a lesser extent the rhino, basically all use similar MOs, and way too similar motives. They're personalities blend far too easily.There was a pretty good storyline about this that JMS did in the regular Spidey continuity books. How SpiderMan was really an avatar of sorts representing some mystical spider force, and how other lesser animalistic avatars were drawn to him because they were compelled to try and beat the spider avatar. It was an interesting take on why Spidey has such a weird rogue's gallery.

[Viktor Von Russia]

They share animal or elemental based themes. And its always a 'Mwah-ha! I've got to prove I'm better than that dimwitted spider-man...' I mean, Electro, Shocker, Scorpion, Doc Ock, the Vulture, Kraven, and to a lesser extent the rhino, basically all use similar MOs, and way too similar motives. They're personalities blend far too easily.
Well, it's kind of Spider-Man's schtik to have "small time" enemies. I mean, he does stop bank robberies, muggers, and litterbugs on a daily basis. It's only natural that some of his achnemeses have similar petty motives like money and whatnot. They can't always be Galactuses or Thanoses. I mean realistically, I'm guessing people with powers would resort to theft and stuff unless they had Magneto-calibur powers.

As for personalities, though, they're not all that similar. Kraven, for example, would commit a crime to lure Spidey out and start a fight. Doc Ock has a kind of distinguished, intellectual air about him. And Rhino's just a dumbass in a suit trying to make a buck. My point is, they are different characters and a good writer (JMS and Bendis come to mind) can bring out their uniqueness.

The great spider-man villains are as always, the Green Goblin & Venom, becuase they are unique... their lives in relation to Spider-Man matters to the reader.
And that's why they're not used quite as often as the small fries. Imagine if the Fantastic Four faced off with Doom in every comic. That's why writers will use the lesser villains like Vulture or Shocker to keep the reader fairly interested until they pull out the big guns.

It differs from X-men in that their villains often have deeper resons for acting the way they do - they are less-used archetypes, and therefore more interesting then the over-used archetypes (i.e. evil genius uses mechanical limbs to rob bank)
What kind of deeper reasons, really? Any that I can think of stem from "Mutant no like human. DIE!" or "Human no like mutant. DIE!" I fail to see how that is more complex than the motivation of Spidey's rogues gallery. Sure, it's not nearly as petty, but it's not any deeper.


I'm not sure your understanding me... Its contrived to, say, come up with the name of a villian or even the basic concept (Scorpion, Doc Ock, etc) before any other aspect. All great comic writers do / have done this, but when they make it painfully obvious in today's market, I find it distracting.
When you look at any character that's been around as long as they have, they all have that problem. And how did anyone in this day and age to make it "painfully obvious" that these characters are so contrived? I'd like a specific example, if you could provide one, as I'm having trouble grasping your meaning.

[Tyler-The-Wizard]

I think anyone can admit that the birth name of marvel villains are fairly cheesy. In Spider-man 2 J.J.J. even laughingly states, "A guy named Otto Octavius gets four metal arms bonded to his back, what are the odds?" And in X-men Wolverine asks if they call professor X Wheels.

Ultimate X-men tried to get around the silliness by saying that in order to create a distinct culture mutants have started giving themselves one or two word "mutant names". The brotherhood of mutants seems to follows this practice the most.

You can blame marvel character's names on Stan Lee. Supposedly he had a horrible time with remembering names so he gave everyone matching initials. Peter Parker, Otto Octavius, J. Jonah Jameson, Betty Brant, Curt Connors, Susan Storm, Reed Richards, Bruce Banner, and although there is a plethora of exceptions at this point it remains a classic trait of comic book characters. Heck, the Superman comics follow the same traits.

[Elmer J.]

Yeah, If I ever meet someone with an alliterative name I tell them they have a superhero name.

[Nique]

Personally, I like that. It makes the name flow...

As for personalities, though, they're not all that similar. Kraven, for example, would commit a crime to lure Spidey out and start a fight. Doc Ock has a kind of distinguished, intellectual air about him. And Rhino's just a dumbass in a suit trying to make a buck. My point is, they are different characters and a good writer (JMS and Bendis come to mind) can bring out their uniqueness.


The motives are too similar too me.. not the personalities nessecerily. I contract any statment of mine making a claim to the opposite point.

Sure, it's not nearly as petty, but it's not any deeper.

Um, yes? Look, if the reasons for creating chaos aren't shallow & slef-serving on a base level, then the alternative would be deeper, right? It might be cliche', but its a more important motive.

When you look at any character that's been around as long as they have, they all have that problem. And how did anyone in this day and age to make it "painfully obvious" that these characters are so contrived? I'd like a specific example, if you could provide one, as I'm having trouble grasping your meaning.

Just becuase something is prevelant, that doesn't make it right. It just makes it accepted. And the problem doesn't so much have to do with modern day writers as it does with the legacy of old-school comic writers we are still working with.

I don't feel that charecters like Prof. X, Reed Richards, Doom, Dead Pool, & more appear contrived - they are well developed, and their powers aren't thrown in your face as their most 'important' trait. Spidey villains (and more) suffer from the opposite - their powers take an unfair amount of import, unless you get a good writer in their who develops their personalities in a really great way. But since that doesn't happen very often, the charecters are left with their name-sake powers as the focus, which feels kind of empty to me.


Don't mistake me, I'm not so much complaining as I am making an observational commentary. I'm not throwing out my GNs in rage.

[Amake]

1. I like the Ultimate line.

2. All good stories end.

That's my two cents. ^_^

[Nique]

2. All good stories end.

Very much agreed. Although I have this to add; The "real" stories of comic-book super heros DO end, which is how I continue to bare the consistent re-inventing and monthly tales.

That is to say, for example, Batman's story is always the same story; A wealthy couple is murdered in front of their only son at about the age of 8. Scarred by the event, he is inspired to fight where the law cannot reach - prevent the same kind of crime, indeed, all crime, from happening to other innocents like himself at that moment. After spending all of his young life in training, he becomes a creature of the night, a fear-inspiring figure to the thugs and crimelords of his city - The Batman.

What we read monthly retells and focuses on different aspects of that story. And yes, it doesn't have an 'end', persay, as a whole continuity, but you can relate the Batman story to someone as an independant piece. The same holds true with all good super-hero stories... However, the continuity as a whole does get jumbled and compressed, sometimes unbelivably, after the decades of story backlog and we get stuff like the COIE, and the 'Ultimate' seiris (though as was stated, is not a true reboot)

[Fifthfiend]

You can blame marvel character's names on Stan Lee. Supposedly he had a horrible time with remembering names so he gave everyone matching initials. Peter Parker, Otto Octavius, J. Jonah Jameson, Betty Brant, Curt Connors, Susan Storm, Reed Richards, Bruce Banner, and although there is a plethora of exceptions at this point it remains a classic trait of comic book characters. Heck, the Superman comics follow the same traits.

"Blame"? Are you kidding, I love that shit.

Seriously as far as I'm concerned every comic character ever made should be named either David Daedalus Dobson or Johnny Blaze. It's just one of those silly things that there ought to be more of.

I do wish the modern writers would be like 90% less self conscious about the whole thing, Warren Ellis I'm looking at you.

[Amake]

Right. Let's take Batman as an example, cause I work best with examples. What we get is a bunch, a throng of stories with Batman in them. They work, some of them are great - The Killing Joke for example - and they end. What's missing, in my view, is the story of Batman. It's got to end somehow. Either he quits fighting crime (fat chance) or he dies, and until he does his story isn't complete.

It's been said that a story isn't actually told until it's ended; with that what we have is several hundred untold stories, about all those heroes who never quit and never die. More and more with every new Ultimate and X-treem revamp. Is there a problem with that, or is it just me?

[Jagos]

No it's not. I wish I could get into Marvel or DC and have new characters come while other characters went.
But there SO much backstory, I'm kinda daunted to start. I like Wolvie along with Batman and such. If they could crossover it would be great and all. But the artists make the story, get paid and move on. The character stays but...

It's not the same.

Prolly why I like manga more. You can pick it up from the beginning, learn the characters, but there's an end. When is a story in itself.

[Fifthfiend]

X-treem

You misspelled that.

It should be X-TREEM.

[Tyler-The-Wizard]

Actually the JLU managed to write an end for Batman. In there season finally the revealed a major secret from the BATMAN BEYOND television show.Terry McGuiness is technically the son of Bruce Wayne through gene manipulation. Not by Bruce but a woman who felt the world needed a Batman. She later decided killing his parents to send him down Bruce's path would invalidate what she started and let him live a normal life. As fait would have it Terry's father was killed by jokers anyway and he bacame Batman through his own actions. I found the whole thing to have a really epic quality about it that did Batman justice.

We are getting a bit off track. Has anyone read the recent Ultimate Spider-man? My subscription ran out at issue 77 and the next one I'll get is issue 85. I must know what happens!

[ElfLad]

Basically, Spidey dumped MJ after the Hobgoblin incident. Recently, while trying to take down Hammerhead, he ran into Black Cat again. The writers seem to be setting it up for a Spidey/Black Cat romantic relationship.

[Tyler-The-Wizard]

The writers seem to be setting it up for a Spidey/Black Cat romantic relationship.

Black Cat?

*orders comics*

:D

[Elmer J.]

Basically, Spidey dumped MJ after the Hobgoblin incident. Recently, while trying to take down Hammerhead, he ran into Black Cat again. The writers seem to be setting it up for a Spidey/Black Cat romantic relationship.
Actually, Peter is dating Shadowcat. Weird, I know, but it actually seemed to work quite well. I'm getting this off of a synopsis on Wikipedia, btw. I also need to get more of these comics.
Black Cat is figuring in the current storyline, but the tension is very one-sided. She also thinks that Peter is married.

[Nique]

Peter IS married - to being Spider-Man. I mean, come on, what teenager/young adult puts that much responsibility on himself.

He's whipped, fellas. Its why he gets a super-hot-model as a wife... His life balences out in that way, although you'd think the spider-powers would cover that...

[gurusloth]

Actually, the whole Spidey/Shadowcat thing was only in the annual. They haven't really touched on it in the regular issues (although they should, as it was brilliant). Also, it's clear that the Black Cat believes Spidey to be much older than he actually is (as evidenced from the fact that she thinks he's married). Bet on that relationship going south as soon as she finds out.

So I guess he's destined to be with MJ. Maybe she'll go out and get superpowers so that he doesn't have to worry about her anymore...that'd be a hoot.

[Elmer J.]

Actually, the whole Spidey/Shadowcat thing was only in the annual. They haven't really touched on it in the regular issues (although they should, as it was brilliant). Also, it's clear that the Black Cat believes Spidey to be much older than he actually is (as evidenced from the fact that she thinks he's married). Bet on that relationship going south as soon as she finds out.

So I guess he's destined to be with MJ. Maybe she'll go out and get superpowers so that he doesn't have to worry about her anymore...that'd be a hoot.
I'm pretty sure that annuals affect the continuity. Which would make a pretty good relationship, even if it's probably doomed not to last.
I was hoping that Mary Jane would die all Gwen Stacy like, and Gwen would live...
Because who didn't love this Gwen Stacy?
And I'm sick of Mary Jane.
If you look through the dead threads to find the old spiderman 3 one, I suggested a plot where she died.
http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=244005&postcount=16

[Viktor Von Russia]

Actually, I wasn't too crazy about the Ultimate version of Gwen Stacy. She was too different from the original for my tastes. But then again, the whole point of the Ultimate line is to take characters and stories in new directions and whatnot, so I guess that's ok.

[NolanSpalter]

But how many here can even say they knew what the original Gwen was like? She died when Superman still had the dark power of time travel. I certainly never read enough of 70s Spider Parker to say I knew her well.

Bendis is an Ultimate FOOL for killing Ultimate Gwen like he did. If I were writing the comic book that is our reality, the world would see a mob of rampaging Ben Reillys hulking out and seizing Bendis, in mob-like fashion; they would have a minor tussle with Jessica Jones, who would undoubtedly come to Bendis' aid, overcome her easily, then carry Bendis off into the horizon, where they would ULTIMATELY kill him, and we would all go back to reading JMS Spider Parker. Even though Alex Ross hates it.

[Elmer J.]

Bendis has said before that he will never have ultimate Spider-clones, but there is an upcoming arc called "Cone saga." I am forseeing a tricky title likes that of UFF's "Crossover." Someone's getting cloned, though. And I hope it's Gwen. And I hope Mary Jane dies. Peter and Gwen just had such better chemistry.
Better yet!
Gwen's clone actually wants to be Gwen again this time, and Pete realizes he always loved her more, so he just cruelly dumps Mary Jane, who becomes some evil, psychologically tortured villainess, THEN dies.

Hm, I really don't like Mary Jane, do I?

[ElfLad]

SPOILERS: highlight to read


Peter already dumped MJ in the Hobgoblin story arc. He went ballistic at her because he told her to stay away from Harry, but Harry turned into the Hobgoblin and MJ almost died and Peter felt it was too dangerous for her and he dumped her.

[Fifthfiend]

But how many here can even say they knew what the original Gwen was like? She died when Superman still had the dark power of time travel. I certainly never read enough of 70s Spider Parker to say I knew her well.

Bendis is an Ultimate FOOL for killing Ultimate Gwen like he did. If I were writing the comic book that is our reality, the world would see a mob of rampaging Ben Reillys hulking out and seizing Bendis, in mob-like fashion; they would have a minor tussle with Jessica Jones, who would undoubtedly come to Bendis' aid, overcome her easily, then carry Bendis off into the horizon, where they would ULTIMATELY kill him, and we would all go back to reading JMS Spider Parker. Even though Alex Ross hates it.

If any fictional character gets to kill Bendis, it's Hawkeye.

[Elmer J.]

SPOILERS: highlight to read


Peter already dumped MJ in the Hobgoblin story arc. He went ballistic at her because he told her to stay away from Harry, but Harry turned into the Hobgoblin and MJ almost died and Peter felt it was too dangerous for her and he dumped her.
Yeah, but how long will that last?
I want her to DIE. Die like Uncle Ben, and original Gwen Stacy: permanently.
Actually, the original Gwen Stacy got cloned, but she didn't want to be Gwen Stacy, if I understand what I've read.
Ultimate Gwen Stacy oozed character, as far as I'm concerned. Ultimate Mary Jane just kind of fell flat, although less so than the original Mary Jane.

[NolanSpalter]

If any fictional character gets to kill Bendis, it's Hawkeye.

Touche. Previous statements retracted. As long as the killing blow is dealt with a Scarlet Spider-shaped arrow.

[ElfLad]

Yeah, but how long will that last?
Um... two, maybe three story arcs?

What I really want to see is at least one thing that's a polar opposite to the normal Marvelverse. I mean, if it's an alternate retelling, how come EVERYBODY has almost the exact same personality? I'd love to see, say, Ultimate X-men have at least one character that is a villain rather than hero, or human rather than mutant. That would be pretty neat.

[NolanSpalter]

Um... two, maybe three story arcs?

What I really want to see is at least one thing that's a polar opposite to the normal Marvelverse. I mean, if it's an alternate retelling, how come EVERYBODY has almost the exact same personality? I'd love to see, say, Ultimate X-men have at least one character that is a villain rather than hero, or human rather than mutant. That would be pretty neat.

I personally would love to see a heroic panda named Onslaught.

EDIT:

Seriously.

[Elmer J.]

Um... two, maybe three story arcs?

What I really want to see is at least one thing that's a polar opposite to the normal Marvelverse. I mean, if it's an alternate retelling, how come EVERYBODY has almost the exact same personality? I'd love to see, say, Ultimate X-men have at least one character that is a villain rather than hero, or human rather than mutant. That would be pretty neat.
Well, it's not THAT alternate, but a mirrorverse would be kind of funny.
But then between Apocalypse and Galactus the universe would be a Utopia.
I guess Franklin Richards and Nate Grey would be quite a thorn in their sides...

[Fifthfiend]

Um... two, maybe three story arcs?

What I really want to see is at least one thing that's a polar opposite to the normal Marvelverse. I mean, if it's an alternate retelling, how come EVERYBODY has almost the exact same personality? I'd love to see, say, Ultimate X-men have at least one character that is a villain rather than hero, or human rather than mutant. That would be pretty neat.

I'd rather they didn't, if only because the two examples I've come up with of alternate realities with character roles reversed - Jimmy Olsen in The Nail and Dick Grayson in Dark Knight Strikes Again - were the most painfully godawful anything in all of comics ever.

EDIT: Although Exiles (eXiles?) does that sort of thing all the time and that book is official Hot Shit, so maybe it could work.

[NolanSpalter]

EDIT: Although Exiles (eXiles?) does that sort of thing all the time and that book is official Hot Shit, so maybe it could work.


It is? I couldn't tell by looking at it. Came across more as published fanfiction to me. Onslaught, the heroic panda would fit right into that thing.

[Fifthfiend]

It is? I couldn't tell by looking at it. Came across more as published fanfiction to me. Onslaught, the heroic panda would fit right into that thing.

It is pretty much total fanservice, but it is totally awesome fan-service.

Let me put it like this - is the prospect of Holocaust, Nuclear-Powered Spawn of Apocalypse facing off against Hyperion, Unstoppable Sun-Fueled Super-Menace, who proceeds to crack Holocaust open and snort him like a drug the sort of thing you would like to read about in a comic book?

If that is the case then Exiles is very distinctly the comic book that you should read.

... and yes, were Onslaught the Champion Panda to somehow make his way into the pages of that comic book - an event that would be not at all out of place were it to occur - then it would indeed be totally sweet.

[Wetflame]

Gwen Stacy's death was one of the most ridiculously stupid things ever. It's one of those scenarios, much like two certain X-men, that I wouldn't mind a resurrection story.

Instead, they waste resurrection points on General Ross and Betsy Braddock(Who is cool, but not really a main enough character). They can only do so much before they get criticised for going down the 616 route of "Too many come-backs!!!"

It makes sense for Stacy to come back in some form because she wasn't so much killed as absorbed. The Carnage "Symbiote" works by absorbing people's life into itself rather than permanently relying on another lifeform for sustainance and proper mobility. So if the first Carnage survived the fire (After all, who says it would be affected by it just because Venom was..?) there's a chance Gwen could come back as some kind of weird symbiote character.

Personally, I'd love that, a female symbiote has never been a "Regular" character. Though I kind of like Gewn being a "Normal" character.

As for Ultimate X-men and (spoiler if you don't know)Beast and Gambit both being crushed by buildings in two of the most pathetic death scenes ever, I have no idea. Their MUTANTNESS can bring them back.

I don't think Bendis and Co. get what makes a death so meaningful, and that killing off a character "you'll never run out of stories about" doesn't make it impactful. The best way is to make people care about a character that doesn't impact the story so much, but is generally around.

But the main thing with death is, we won't care unless we have enough time to get to know them, and in between that and the proper time lies Gwen Stacy and some of the other deaths, where we're just plain pissed off rather than saddened.

I don't know how they're going to fix this mess, but it's a HUGE marr on the Ultimate Universe, I believe. Just because it's dark doesn't mean you kill off all the main characters. Deaths are some of the hardest things to do, really... I actually think Black Belt was one of the better deaths I've ever read, and I wouldn't mind if he didn't come back, even though I feel the character should have been given a lot more before he died, while the death was handled well the character felt a bit too "Well, we have to kill someone off... who do people care about the least!".

[Fifthfiend]

As for Ultimate X-men and (spoiler if you don't know)Beast and Gambit both being crushed by buildings in two of the most pathetic death scenes ever, I have no idea. Their MUTANTNESS can bring them back.

I don't think Bendis and Co. get what makes a death so meaningful, and that killing off a character "you'll never run out of stories about" doesn't make it impactful. The best way is to make people care about a character that doesn't impact the story so much, but is generally around.


When the fuck did Gambit die? Was that recent or did I just miss that entirely?

More generally, I've always thought if you're going to kill some character completely at random, it should have to be, like, Wolverine or something. And he should have to die so it sticks (or at least sticks for comics, so figure he stays dead for five years). If it's so important to the story that someone bites it, it's important enough to kill your big-name marquee marketing powerhouse. Otherwise you're just jerking around to jerk around.

[Noober]

What I don't like about Ultimate Marvel is that it's only been around for a few years and it's already got really rubbish continuity like Pete still being in the same grade after a comic year has passes, the Fantastic Four's appearence in team-up contradicting their appearence in their own comic, etc.

[Wetflame]

When the fuck did Gambit die? Was that recent or did I just miss that entirely?

More generally, I've always thought if you're going to kill some character completely at random, it should have to be, like, Wolverine or something. And he should have to die so it sticks (or at least sticks for comics, so figure he stays dead for five years). If it's so important to the story that someone bites it, it's important enough to kill your big-name marquee marketing powerhouse. Otherwise you're just jerking around to jerk around.

Gambit died the same pathetic way Beast did, a building fell on him. It's in the Ultimate X-men annual.

Really, Gambit is nearly as popular as Wolverine, yet they'd still never kill off Wolverine because he's so much the "main" character. It was a very stupid move, two of my favourite X-men(well, Gambit was more of a childhood like) are now dead.

Not only that, Dazzler died in a recent issue. This is absolutely ridiculous. 64 issues in, and three X-men, two of which are HUGE names, and one of which was a great reinvention of an older character, have bit the dust?

Since they seem to be refusing to invent new characters, where is the new blood going to come from? Crappy minor characters? If the comic continues at this rate, all the current X-men will die at some point in the run, and not come back.

nd if they bring them back, the fans will bitch. Do the writers even know what they're doing anymore...? It's like they're thinking along the lines of "Reinvent said Marvel classic in the scope of 100 issues", in X-men anyway, and more along the lines of 120 issues in Spiderman(most of the big names have been used alread), which is a terrible way of doing it. The Ultimate universe is good enough to last even longer than the originals as it has far more depth.

But it's a perfectly valid observation, they're claiming "Nothing's saaacred!" yet Mary Jane or Spiderman still isn't going to be touched; just like they won't kill off Wolverine or Professor X. They'll kill of the next most popular character who doesn't have such a big impact on continuity, and we all know who that was.

[Fifthfiend]

Gambit died the same pathetic way Beast did, a building fell on him. It's in the Ultimate X-men annual.

...

Not only that, Dazzler died in a recent issue. This is absolutely ridiculous. 64 issues in, and three X-men, two of which are HUGE names, and one of which was a great reinvention of an older character, have bit the dust?

Wow I've fallen behind. Yeah it's starting to sound like they're hell-bent on killing off anybody interesting or likeable. I mean Beast was the best character they had. And Dazzler was right up there.

Ultimate Gambit was only in like 3 issues but come on, it's Gambit.

But it's a perfectly valid observation, they're claiming "Nothing's saaacred!" yet Mary Jane or Spiderman still isn't going to be touched; just like they won't kill off Wolverine or Professor X. They'll kill of the next most popular character who doesn't have such a big impact on continuity, and we all know who that was.

Yeah that's pretty much what I was getting at. That "nothing's sacred" schtick rings pretty hollow until you kill off something that's actually sacred.

...

So long as I'm complaining, it kinda seems like a lot of modern comics is pretty much the same as old comics, minus the part that made it good. Like, in X-Men 15 years ago, they'd be all "OMG a building is about to fall on Beast!" and then you'd see the rubble fall on him... and then in the next panel Beast would be standing there being all "Oh ho, did you really think a mutant with superhuman speed, agility and intellect was going to get crushed by a falling building? Now let us sally forth and show Magneto what-for!" Whereas now, it looks like a building's going to fall on Beast... and it falls on him and he's dead. Hooray. Or to go outside the Ultmoverse, 25 years ago they would have done a story where Gwen Stacy secretly bangs Norman Osborne and pops out two quick-grow Goblinbabies that decide to kill Spider-Man... and then Spider-Man would be all "Wait a minute... Gwen Stacy wasn't a total whore! This can't be real!" and then someone would cackle and be all "That's right Spider-Man - you've fallen prey to the maniacal macinations of Mysterio!!! And now it's just like, Gwen Stacy bangs Norman Osborn, and Spider-Man's all, "Well, I guess my girlfriend was screwing a psychotic serial killer who's obsessed with torturing me. Eh, that'll happen."

I mean I don't mean to go off on too much of a tangent, I'm just saying there's a line between 'realism' and 'turning all your characters into miserable morons'.

[Wetflame]

As if it wasn't enough for Beast to nearly die the first time... and get turned Blue... He really did have the best personality. I felt so sorry for him. I think the Beast/Storm relationship was extremely well done, and Storm's character became horrible after his death. As if we need another dark, brooding character with a terrible, terrible haircut(one of the artists PLEASE give her hair extensions).

What's worse is that they're bringing minor characters back from the dead, Besty Braddock (through pyschic possession) and general Ross (though um... coming back from the dead on the hospital bed) have already been revived.

The fact that Gambit was underused made it worse. The writers use the argument that it makes the death seem more effective, like they're telling us how to feel and think. It doesn't. It just pisses everyone off. That is not how you write an emotional death.

They're probably going to kill off Kitty next, because she's young and people give her a lot of stick. So why not? Kitty is one of my favourites, I think she's really cute. I like the way her freckles are drawn.

I have no idea where the X-men story is going to go. It can only be a fairly limited closed arc, really. Which is a shame. When it becomes a question of "Who's going to die next?" something's REALLY going to pot. It's more of a joke than the revivals in X-men 616, at least then you know you're going to see your favourite characters.

[Fifthfiend]

What's worse is that they're bringing minor characters back from the dead, Besty Braddock (through pyschic possession) and general Ross (though um... coming back from the dead on the hospital bed) have already been revived.

Actually General Ross came back from the dead through Warren Ellis writing him into the Fantastic Four before anyone told him General Ross was supposed to be dead.

No, seriously.

Betsy Braddock doesn't quite count on account of she's supposed to come back from the dead through psychic possession, so it's hard for me to be upset about that. I mean who ever cared about non-Psylocke Betsy Braddock?

[Wetflame]

Actually General Ross came back from the dead through Warren Ellis writing him into the Fantastic Four before anyone told him General Ross was supposed to be dead.

No, seriously.

Well, that's an even stupider reason.

Betsy Braddock doesn't quite count on account of she's supposed to come back from the dead through psychic possession, so it's hard for me to be upset about that. I mean who ever cared about non-Psylocke Betsy Braddock?

Just like Norman Osbourne is supposed to come back from the dead, along with Doc Ock, Jean Grey, Magneto, etc.

Ultimate Marvel doesn't follow the same storyline as the original.

Also, Betsy was meant to dye her hair purple in her second body... that hasn't happened yet :/ Sucks. The coolest thing about Psylocke's character design was always the hair. It's like taking away Wolverine's hair...

[Fifthfiend]

Just like Norman Osbourne is supposed to come back from the dead, along with Doc Ock, Jean Grey, Magneto, etc.


What I mean is, it's more that in the case of Psylocke, she's only really interesting as Psylocke, dead British telepath posessing the body of the Japanese super-assasin. The only reasonable purpose for introducing Betsy Braddock is to have her die and subsequently turn her into Psylocke. Non-Psylocke Betsy Braddock would be like introducing Professor Xavier, middle-aged high school math teacher who spends his evenings at the pub grading papers and arguing with the TV. It's like, that's nice and all, but... why? Norman Osbourne worked fine as a character without being reincarnated, especially considering his assorted reincarnations haven't really resulted in any kind of actual change in the character. Same with Doc Ock and Magneto, although as far as Jean Grey goes, I would submit that once you have a character running around calling herself the Phoenix, some things are inevitable.

[Premmy]

they Killed Gambit?, plus magnetos not dead just not being magneto, he's eric lensherr again also did'nt Prof. X cal Magneto MGanus sometime somewhere in some comic?

[Sean C]

The most interesting thing about the Ultimate line is that they are an entirely seperate universe that is not bound by the continuity of the regular Marvel U. That means they CAN kill off any of the characters. Some people think they can't do this becuase of the popularity of the regular universe characters, but the reality is that these characters are not the same ones that you've been reading all these years. The tragedy the writers add in can finally surprise and shock because there is no real "Don't Kill This Character Because He/She's Popular And Is Also I Six Other Books Rule".

[Fifthfiend]

The most interesting thing about the Ultimate line is that they are an entirely seperate universe that is not bound by the continuity of the regular Marvel U. That means they CAN kill off any of the characters. Some people think they can't do this becuase of the popularity of the regular universe characters, but the reality is that these characters are not the same ones that you've been reading all these years. The tragedy the writers add in can finally surprise and shock because there is no real "Don't Kill This Character Because He/She's Popular And Is Also I Six Other Books Rule".

Until they kill Ultimate Wolverine and/or Spider-Man, that's a bunch of garbage.

...

And for the record absolutely nobody has complained that you shouldn't kill Ultimate Beast, Ultimate Gambit, or Ultimate Gwen Stacy because 616 Beast, 616 Gambit, and 616 Gwen Stacy were somehow unkillable (I mean, Gwen Stacy? Hello?).

They've complained because Ultimate Beast, Ultimate Gambit, and Ultimate Gwen Stacy were good characters that did not need to be killed.

And, also, that their deaths were really stupid.

[Nique]

Traditonal, popular, american comics, for better or worse, will never kill a popular charecter. They will never end a seiris like Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, Fantastic Four, X-Men, etc. The ongoing stories of the charecters is something that is infused into the very style of American Comic Books.

They could take liberties with the 'Ultimates'... But to what end? They mirror Normal Marvel Universe continuity in several important areas, and they'd have to have a long, LONG run before they killed a charecter like Spider-Man, or Wolverine.

I don't really think comics have changed much since their start (in current form) earlier last century - The techno-babble is imporved, and the stories are slightly more plausible, and the entire quality have imporved a great deal, but the 'Monthly stories of 'Super-Hero Guy & sidekick and/or Love Interest' continue infinetly. Any temporary books don't become popular enough to make it into the mainstream, largely becuase of the time it takes to establish a fanbase, IMO.

But, as Ralph Dibny said 'That's why they don't just carry Vanilla and Chocolatte Ice Cream - Every once in a while, someone comes in and orders Butterscotch.'

[Sean C]

They very well may kill Wolverine or Spider-Man in the Ultimate Universe (if they didn't, you know, make Marvel so much money...) but that's what makes this new comic universe so unpredictable. It's that kind of freedom for the creators that makes people keep reading. And remember that not every death in the universe is supposed to be dramatic and noble. Sometimes death is quick, unexpected, wasteful, and stupid. If they hyped up every death like it so damn important, then a bit of the realism would be lost. They can and will kill characters, and now we know that anyone could bite the big one. It's one of the reasons we keep reading.

Remember that Tony Stark has that inoperable brain tumor......

[Fifthfiend]

They very well may kill Wolverine or Spider-Man in the Ultimate Universe (if they didn't, you know, make Marvel so much money...) but that's what makes this new comic universe so unpredictable.

Which is to say, there is no way in hell they will kill Wolverine or Spider-Man in the Ultimate Universe.

Like I said, as soon as Wolverine stumbles ass-backward into an atom smasher, or whatever it would take to actually kill him, then death can be said to be unpredictable.

Until then, death can be flawlessly predicted to happen to characters with minimal marketability that haven't managed to make it into any of the movies.

I mean you might as well watch Star Trek and be like "OMG they killed the ensign who had just been introduced that episode NO WAY!"

And remember that not every death in the universe is supposed to be dramatic and noble. Sometimes death is quick, unexpected, wasteful, and stupid. If they hyped up every death like it so damn important, then a bit of the realism would be lost. They can and will kill characters, and now we know that anyone could bite the big one.

You know what diminishes realism? Is when characters known for agility, speed, intelligence and quick thinking die because they didn't see a building about to fall down on them.

Show me the comic where Spider-Man spontaneously forgets about his spider-sense, strength, agility and web-shooters and just stands there retardedly while a miscellaneous bank robber shoots him in the face, without telling anybody about it beforehand, and then Marvel just stops making Ultimate Spider-Man. That would prove to me that Marvel believes in the message that death looms for everyone and offers no promise of heroism or nobility.

Until then all you've proven is that in the UMU your death will inevitably be wasteful, stupid, utterly hollow and void of any real meaning or purpose, unless you are in one of the movies in which case you will live forever.

They can and will kill characters that don't pump the sales figures or move enough licensed merchandise. Anyone can bite the big one unless they live inside the magic circle of the movie license. I can think of a few ways to describe that approach but "realism" is not one of them.

[Elmer J.]

Beast died because everyone is incredibly attached to him, and they wanted a bit more gravitas. He'll probably be back though. Htye brought him back from near death before.


Gambit's entire psyche has been absorbed by Rogue. He'll be back in one way or another, or Rogue will take his place somehow. It'll be interesting.

[Tyler-The-Wizard]

I just got ultimate spider-man #85. Black-Cat threw up on Peter when she went to kiss him and found out how younger he was! HAHAHA!

[Elmer J.]

I just got ultimate spider-man #85. Black-Cat threw up on Peter when she went to kiss him and found out how younger he was! HAHAHA!
Seriously? No way.
Was she drunk, too?
I'm afraid I'm going to have to depend on you for this, as there isn't a comic book shop nearby.
That seems a little weird, would you throw up if you realized that you had kissed someone maybe ten- twelve at best- years younger than you?

[Tyler-The-Wizard]

She wasn't drunk, just well, horny. It really is a hilarious sight too, you see how pimply Peter is from her perspective. Then she throws up on him and runs away. Then Peter goes home and his aunt threatens to kick him out of the house for skipping school. After this issue what happened in the annual is supposed to take place. So at least Peter bounces back with another type of cat.

[ElfLad]

You know what diminishes realism? Is when characters known for agility, speed, intelligence and quick thinking die because they didn't see a building about to fall down on them.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Beast die pushing a little kid out of the way of a falling building? In other words, self-sacrifice, not standing there stupidly?

[Elmer J.]

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Beast die pushing a little kid out of the way of a falling building? In other words, self-sacrifice, not standing there stupidly?
I'm pretty sure that was the first time, when he almost died, but was saved by MArvel Girl and Prof. X mind-reading surgeons. I could be wrong, though. Maybe he saved a girl twice.

[Fifthfiend]

I just got ultimate spider-man #85. Black-Cat threw up on Peter when she went to kiss him and found out how younger he was! HAHAHA!

In honor of Peter Parker revealing his identity to yet another relative stranger of questionable morality and sanity --

http://www.biggercheese.com/comics/0416.png

After all it's not like Parker letting people find out that he's actually Spider-Man could conceivably put his life at risk or endanger the people about whom he cares the most, or anything like that.

[Wetflame]

Bendis went through an ass-hat few months where he killed off:

Ultimate Beast
Ultimate Gwen Stacy
Ant-Man
The Vision
Hawkeye
Thor(?)
Carnage

There's probably more I'm not remembering.

That was all in the space of a few months :/ Don't let Bendis write on your book, kids >.>

[skulldaddy]

I don't think Bendis killed Ult Beast or Thor actually...

[Fifthfiend]

I don't think Bendis killed Ult Beast or Thor actually...

No, he killed Ultimate Beast, killed him deader than the American labor movement. But Thor is still alive, marginally well and expertly preserved inside an Ultimates holding facility, while his mad brother Loki carries out the Liberation of the Americas.

[ElfLad]

Yeah, about the Ultimates, Captain America wtf? I mean, with anybody else, there might have been a moment of doubt, but when they make Cap the traitor, we know it's gonna be some cop-out about there being a set-up or mind control or something.

And Elmer, yeah, now that you mention it, that happened the first time, too. Are they running out of ideas?

[Elmer J.]

When in doubt, kill the best X-man again!
Yeah, no one can really not like Beast. Sure he's indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds, but he's Hank FREAKING McCoy. The fictional embodiment of awesome. He's pretty much superhuman in every aspect except no being blue and simian.

Since they haven't encountered a single clone yet, and it's the X-men for god's sakes. I'm pinning my hopes on a cloned Beast with pink skin restored. BUt if they kill him one more time...

[Fifthfiend]

When in doubt, kill the best X-man again!
Yeah, no one can really not like Beast. Sure he's indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds, but he's Hank FREAKING McCoy. The fictional embodiment of awesome. He's pretty much superhuman in every aspect except no being blue and simian.

Since they haven't encountered a single clone yet, and it's the X-men for god's sakes. I'm pinning my hopes on a cloned Beast with pink skin restored. BUt if they kill him one more time...

Four words - Ultimates black-ops program.

It explains why he had to disappear and boosts his bad-ass meter up a couple of notches. Plus if you have to bring someone back from the dead I'd really rather they were never actually dead to begin with rather than actually being dead and being somehow brought back.

He can even turn up again with pink skin and blue hair, that can be like the deal the Ultimates offered him for joining up.

Then he can slap the shit out of Ultimate Wolverine and drop him into an atom smasher and go get his girl back and all will be right with the Ultimate World.

... seriously though, I will say this much - I would bet any amount of money that one way or another he manages to come back within six months on either side of the movie release. Now Beast is in the Movie Marquee Name Magic Circle of Protection, he's going to be as magically unkillable as everyone else who's made it into a movie.

On the downside he will come back looking like Kelsey Grammer. Just accept it there's really nothing you can do.

[Elmer J.]

Yeah, about the Ultimates, Captain America wtf? I mean, with anybody else, there might have been a moment of doubt, but when they make Cap the traitor, we know it's gonna be some cop-out about there being a set-up or mind control or something.

And Elmer, yeah, now that you mention it, that happened the first time, too. Are they running out of ideas?

Also, in reference to Captain america. I was hoping that he was taking The Ultimates out of the hands of Nick Fury, and using them more and more as an invasion force.
So The Ultimates are fighting the same conspiracy that tried to off wolverine in "blockbuster."


But then it turned out to be Black widow. And Russia's all evil again. boo.

[ElfLad]

Um... Did a new comic get out? Because the last one I read was just Cap getting taken down. Nothing about BW.

[Elmer J.]

Spoiler tag, please! Anyway. I don't have access to comics anyway, so I'm keeping up via wikipedia until I can get a subscription. That's how I know these things. It could be innaccurate, I suppose.

[Premmy]

I'm pretty sure that was the first time, when he almost died, but was saved by MArvel Girl and Prof. X mind-reading surgeons. I could be wrong, though. Maybe he saved a girl twice.
The first time he had a bomb go off under him "or something" were Storms exact words. I'm going with bomb he does'nt have super senses so theoretically he could get caught by a trap bomb they didn't really show what happened, just that it happened

[skulldaddy]

i meant that Millar killed Beast, not Bendis, and Oeming Killed 616MU Thor...err evoled him past the Norweign Karmic Loop or something...

[Fifthfiend]

i meant that Millar killed Beast, not Bendis, and Oeming Killed 616MU Thor...err evoled him past the Norweign Karmic Loop or something...

Nope, it was Bendis bagged the Beast.

But yeah, nobody knows what that thing with Thor was about.

[Elmer J.]

Four words - Ultimates black-ops program.


I was reading an old issue yesterday, and I found a passage where PRof. X is talking to Nick Fury about how cool Beast is, and Nick Fury says that Beast is definitely tagged because of his intelligence and skill, but his age is a problem.

So it looks like you're right.

EDIT: Exact quotes
Not thinking of signing him [Beast] up for that man's army you run on the other side of town, are you, General?

Not until he graduates from here, no, but his abilities and intellect have definitely marked him for attention. I hope you ain't got a problem with that, Professor.

Remember that Beast had recently transferred to the Academy of Tomorrow because he was ashamed about exposing Angel on the Internet before he "died" in an attack by a Sentinel sent by an unknown member of the government.

[TheZeroMan]

Actually I've read the actual book but if Captain America was (though I guess he isn't) the traitor it would make sense. Because at some level the Ultimates is just retelling the old continuity in a new way for fun and profit.

And during the 70s Captain America lost faith in the American government because of President Nixon, Watergate, and the Vietnam war and quit being Captain America and the Avengers so he could roam the country as "Nomad" for half a decade or so.

So it fits.

And the "Ultimate" Beast is dead. If he ever comes back to life it will be incredibly lame.

[Elmer J.]

Actually I've read the actual book but if Captain America was (though I guess he isn't) the traitor it would make sense. Because at some level the Ultimates is just retelling the old continuity in a new way for fun and profit.

And during the 70s Captain America lost faith in the American government because of President Nixon, Watergate, and the Vietnam war and quit being Captain America and the Avengers so he could roam the country as "Nomad" for half a decade or so.

So it fits.

And the "Ultimate" Beast is dead. If he ever comes back to life it will be incredibly lame.

Well, Ultimate Cap is, if anything, more patriotic than 616 Cap. He missed Watergate altogether, being frozen in an iceberg at the time. So it really wouldn't make sense for Ultimate Cap to betray America, persay. However! There have been quite a few hints of unrest and factionalization within the American government about posthumans. So if Cap threw his lot in with the anti-posthuman side, he would probably betray the Ultimates, and Nick Fury. Nick Fury has tried to work around the President to keep his favorite posthumans safe before.

Also, while I'm usually against the resurrection of characters, killing Ultimate Beast in the first place was much lamer than retconning his death to be a cover for enlisting him in the Black-Ops section of the Ultimates by far. He was as awesome as classic Beast is, and then some.

[Wetflame]

Beast joined the avengers shortly after turning blue in 616, and they'll need someone to keep the numbers up now Widow is gone.

Here's hoping :/ We probably won't find out until August though, when Ultimates Volume 3 will probably start. Though he may turn up in Ultimate Extinction.

[Fifthfiend]

Actually I've read the actual book but if Captain America was (though I guess he isn't) the traitor it would make sense. Because at some level the Ultimates is just retelling the old continuity in a new way for fun and profit.

And during the 70s Captain America lost faith in the American government because of President Nixon, Watergate, and the Vietnam war and quit being Captain America and the Avengers so he could roam the country as "Nomad" for half a decade or so.

Yeah but that's a pretty long way from selling out America to an superpowered invasion force.

Captain America never betrayed America, he was pissed that Nixon and the whole rogues' gallery of madmen behind Vietnam betrayed America.

And the "Ultimate" Beast is dead. If he ever comes back to life it will be incredibly lame.

It was incredibly lame when they killed him so they're allowed to bring him back.

...

So long as I'm making up rules for people to follow, everyone reading this is required to pay a Fifthfiend Tax where you send all your money to Fifthfiend i.e. me.

Here's hoping :/ We probably won't find out until August though, when Ultimates Volume 3 will probably start.

I'm really sketchy on the prospects of the Ultimates once it isn't written by Millar anymore.

Though he may turn up in Ultimate Extinction.

Yeah, but the Ultimate Galactus stuff comes out at like one issue every six months, so I wouldn't worry about an overlap.