Dan Shoe Hsu, Hero of the Planet, or: The 360 Gets What it Deserves

[Lockeownzj00]

Note: Dual Topic of 360 and journalistic integrity in games journalism. They link together at the integrity part.

Start out with this very interesting Blog Post by Dan. (http://danhsu.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=6228583&publicUserId=5379799)

Then check out the interview with Peter Moore that Penny Arcade explains; "Dan actually went in there and asked the sorts of questions you see every day online, in the indecorous language of the hardcore forum...You simply haven't read anything like this," here (http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3147131&did=1).

Finally I'd suggest checking out the PA News Post (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/01/21)(Tycho's specifically), and of course, the comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic).

Here's another 1up article comparing the graphics and functionality of 360 games with the original Xbox (http://hdera.1up.com/). Articles like this further prove to me how this next-gen is artificial.

More analyses (http://vgmwatch.com/?p=917) and roundtables (http://nintendonow.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=5&m_articles_articleid=3317).

Anyway, I love how uncomfortable the interview gets, and I love what Dan is saying about the 360. Finally, someone stops fellating Microsoft.

ps: not saying PA's word is law, even though I agree with them. I was just going through my daily sites and this is the first I heard of it.

[The Wizard Who Did It]

This makes me feel... content. Like to a certain extent, someone is actually taking the complaints that one hears online and puting them into an interview. Rather than the whole thing being like "You're system is awesome" "I know", it's "Ya know what, you screwed this up pretty badly" "Um, no I didn't... who told you that? Um..."

Oh, and the set up to the back wards compatible thing was genius. I'm in mock trial at the moment, and that was a great.

[VeryGnawty]

I've been saying it all along. The difference between each generation of consoles closes the gap. The difference between the 2600 and NES graphics were huge. The difference between the Playstation and the Playstation 2, not nearly as huge. The difference between current gen and next gen, not even worth the price.

Oh, and the set up to the back wards compatible thing was genius.

Best part of the entire interview.

[_mike]

I'll repeat the sentiments on the backwards-compatibility issue. *repeats*

The aspect that I found most amusing about this whole thing was the talking heads on the 1up article comparing Xbox and Xbox360. Hilarious.

But I worry that it seems Hsu thinks that the gaming press needs to work to gain respect from other editorial outlets. Really, that's not going to happen until the current explosion in the gaming public is in charge, no matter how strong game magazine publishers' ethics are.

[Mirai Gen]

Have I heard a single negative word since launch about backwards compatibility? No.

Well, gee, if I plug my ears and yell really loudly when girls begin to say, "No," I can just say, "All the girls I ask out don't turned me down!"

Jeeze, does Moore realize that we, as gamers, don't care HOW it's done, because it's Microsoft, and they have enough money to do goddamn near everything.

[Chipper173]

Yeah. I just wanted to toss his excuse for backwards compatability out the window and say to him, "I don't care how or why. I know you can do it. Now make the copy of Battlefront II I bought a week ago work."

[ZERO.]

Anyone who has ever put the word Xbox 360 in a search engine has herd of all the spec fuck ups, how it's like .000004% better than the old Xbox, half the reason me and im sure other people are buying the premium version of the Xbox 360 is because Xbox live will stop being supported in 2007.

We might as well get the new one, as for me im going to wait awhile im going to see what the other systems bring to the table, what M.M.O.R.P.G will come out for what, because I would hate to get a 360 and then find out WoW is coming out for the ps3 only.

[In Hindsight]

In response to the blog post...

I'm honestly surprised he wasn't pointing out Game Informer, considering the company that owns that publication. I have a bit of experience with those folks to say the least, and I would be genuinely shocked if the entirety of their articles weren't purchased.

We don't carry EGM at my store that I can remember, so I have very little experience with that particular publication. I will say that from what I've read, the only mags that I would spend money on are Play and Hardcore Gamer Magazine... They seem to be about the only honest publications out there. Moreover, they actually cover a lot of stuff outside of the mainstream.

[pineapple]

Tycho is the only person I trust anymore.

yes, I know, everyone hates Penny Arcade, but there's no denying that that guy is smarter than most people [who play video games].

the printed media in this case has almost been entirely obsoleted by teh intarweb by way of websites which I was at first going to list but decided not to.

anyhoo in response to the whole fiasco, I hate the XBox. I am extremely biased. but still, it seemed to me that that guy (Moore) handled it as professionally as a liar who works for a company that makes a crappy console could have.

I mean, sure, the interviewer got a little uppity at a point and segued into the whole backwards compatibility issue pretty brilliantly, but that was a lukewarm burn at best. are gaming interviews normally even tamer than this? are gaming publications really too scared to confront company officials with actual issues regarding their products? I wouldn't know having never read one.

the problems I see here are these:
1) video games suck
2) XBox 360 sucks
3) video game related publications suck

I think we need to fix them in that order. I mean video game related publications are just not a big deal in the grand scheme of things because video games are really stupid. no one cares about them anymore, especially not the people who make them.

I'm sorry, it's so late, I'm not even sure if any of that made sense or was punctuated properly. take-a-ordah-preez

[Satan's Onion]

Two things:

(1) It's this sort of controversy that will probably make me wait until I see the Nintendo Revolution on shelves before purchasing anything. That and, well, me and Microsoft...it's sorta complicated. You could call it a love-hate relationship...with a lot of hate.

(2) *Do* people hate Penny Arcade? Seriously. I've been going through the archives for about a week and I haven't found anything to omniloathe about Gabe and Tycho at this point. Can someone politely remove the veil from my eyes on this issue, in another thread somewhere or a PM or something? (Seein' as how it's off this topic and all.)

[Raerlynn]

I'm waiting for the crap releases of the XBOX 360 to die down before I fork over cash. Also the crappy backwards compatibility is a major sticking point. I WILL however, gladly fork over the money for a PS3, and more than likely for the Revolution.

[Fifthfiend]

Reading that interview was like staring into the Sun.

The Sun of TRUTH.

[ApathyMan]

I agree with most of the points brought up by Hsu, PA, and those mentioned on the Forum, so I won't harp on that. There are two points brought up that I do disagree with, though.

1. EGM's Kameo Review (http://egm.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=2005833&did=2): Honestly, they have really gotten bad at reviewing games. Read what they talk about and they mention how awesome/sucky the graphics in the game are and how awesome/sucky the game is. With the Kameo review, I agree with what Moore mentioned - the review is much too short to really probe into any of the nuances of the game (such as controls). Whether the score was accurate or not, the review really doesn't explain a whole lot about the game itself.

2. The comparison with X-Box and X-360 games: The descriptions may be fine (albiet probably too brief), but comparing still pictures between games on the two consoles does nothing to help. One of the things that the 360 does much better than the Box (on some games more than others) is fluidity, speed, and motion - not necessarily polycount and textures - and cannot be seen in still pictures.

Otherwise, I give a hardy thumbs up to Dan Hsu.

*gives Dan Hsu a hardy thumbs up*

[Deathosaurus Wrecks]

so...we're suprized that Microsoft would create a shoddy and disapointing product, and we're suprized that a major corporation's hype machine would make promises that the product couldn't follow through on.

i'm seeing this as a PEBCAC (http://www.auditmypc.com/acronym/PEBCAC.asp) issue, not a fault of the industry.

[Nique]

Dan Hsu has always been pretty good about this kind of thing, and I really like EGM. Ziff Davis publishes good gamer mags, and EGM is the best one.

It seems like every next-gen release we get stuff like this, but this X-BOX 360 jargle is getting pretty insufferable, it seems.

[pineapple]

(2) *Do* people hate Penny Arcade? Seriously. I've been going through the archives for about a week and I haven't found anything to omniloathe about Gabe and Tycho at this point. Can someone politely remove the veil from my eyes on this issue, in another thread somewhere or a PM or something? (Seein' as how it's off this topic and all.)

I'm not sure, but even I think that they don't deserve to be making a living on what they're doing.

and I love those guys!

[Lockeownzj00]

Actually, everybody *doesn't* hate Penny Arcade. There's just a lot of whiners out there who get annoyed at their sarcastic statements and interpret them as pretentious when they're just fucking around.

[Mirai Gen]

I'll avoid reminding you all of the horrific "Patent on gaming comics" scenario a while ago.

EDIT: Okay, I'll add some REAL substance if you really wish...

so...we're suprized that Microsoft would create a shoddy and disapointing product, and we're suprized that a major corporation's hype machine would make promises that the product couldn't follow through on.
It's not really the surprise. It's the fact that, when pinned down, Microsoft really has no good excuse for said disapointing product.

It's plainly nice to see someone point it out, even better since it's a MS figurehead.

[The Wizard Who Did It]

(2) *Do* people hate Penny Arcade?
Not really. I personnally don't think much of their humor, but that's just me. They also do seem to have a lot of very stupid fans who believe whatever they say, so that of course is a downside.

[pineapple]

I'll avoid reminding you all of the horrific "Patent on gaming comics" scenario a while ago.

but that was hilarious, and obviously a lie.

Brian's rebuttal was even funnier.

[Fifthfiend]

so...we're suprized that Microsoft would create a shoddy and disapointing product, and we're suprized that a major corporation's hype machine would make promises that the product couldn't follow through on.

i'm seeing this as a PEBCAC (http://www.auditmypc.com/acronym/PEBCAC.asp) issue, not a fault of the industry.

You are mistaking anger for surprise.

If someone comes up to you and lies to your face, does it make it okay if you know they are lying? If that person tries to put his hand in your pocket and take the money out of your wallet, does it make it okay if you expected him to do it? Would you stand there and shrug, or would you shout "Hey everybody, this here is a motherfucker who likes lying to people and picking the money out of their pockets!"?

And frankly what does surprise me is this suggestion that an industry has made poor workmanship, massive campaigns of misinformation, and baldfacedly manipulative, bad-faith dealing with its customers into standard practice and yet this is all somehow to be considered something other than "a fault of the industry."

I just cannot quite get my head around that one, maybe it's just me, I do not know.

[Deathosaurus Wrecks]

If someone comes up to you and lies to your face, does it make it okay if you know they are lying? If that person tries to put his hand in your pocket and take the money out of your wallet, does it make it okay if you expected him to do it? Would you stand there and shrug, or would you shout "Hey everybody, this here is a motherfucker who likes lying to people and picking the money out of their pockets!"?


this isn't a person though, this is Microsoft's marketing division, its thier job to lie to our faces and try to steal our money. Microsoft making substandard products and overcharging for them is nothing new (Win95/98/ME); and people who work in marketing are just another form of salesmen (the time honored tradition of people who will say anything to get you to buy thier product).

to act incredulous now, after all this time, just strikes me as odd.

[Lockeownzj00]

The incredulity comes from the fact that not everyone is 'smart' enough to see through their game, at least from our angle.

As long as its claws have their grip on peoples' minds, we will fight for truth, justice, love and-o peace.

[BitVyper]

The incredulity comes from the fact that not everyone is 'smart' enough to see through their game, at least from our angle.

As long as its claws have their grip on peoples' minds, we will fight for truth, justice, love and-o peace.

*Everlasting* peace.

[Mirai Gen]

*Everlasting* peace.
And no bullshit in our hype machine.

[synkr0nized]

I love how the general charge against Microsoft is taken up, as if this interview was some shining beacon of "ha ha you guys fail it." It was actually a fairly cordial read, and it seems Tycho's short reaction is more level-headed than some of these posts.



And because I'm sure someone will post something like, "ha ha stfu MS n00b," I have no intentions of purchasing this system unless some large price drop or crazy amount of quality games being released occurs. Mr. Hsu delivered some good questions, Mr. Moore responded corporately well (like the VP of marketing will badmouth his system or acquiesce to negative opinions), and Tycho made a great point: "The machine is going through a kind of adolescent period at the moment, a chain of events exacerbated by the rigors of next-gen content creation, and in two or three months none of this will matter." As long as you spend your money where you best feel it should be spend, purchasing the system(s) and game(s) that you want, I fail to see the need for any crusades.

[Mirai Gen]

I love how the general charge against Microsoft is taken up, as if this interview was some shining beacon of "ha ha you guys fail it." It was actually a fairly cordial read, and it seems Tycho's short reaction is more level-headed than some of these posts.

And because I'm sure someone will post something like, "ha ha stfu MS n00b," I have no intentions of purchasing this system unless some large price drop or crazy amount of quality games being released occurs. Mr. Hsu delivered some good questions, Mr. Moore responded corporately well (like the VP of marketing will badmouth his system or acquiesce to negative opinions), and Tycho made a great point: "The machine is going through a kind of adolescent period at the moment, a chain of events exacerbated by the rigors of next-gen content creation, and in two or three months none of this will matter." As long as you spend your money where you best feel it should be spend, purchasing the system(s) and game(s) that you want, I fail to see the need for any crusades.
I hope you don't mind...but I'm going to take a bit of offense to that.

I highly doubt we're all taking this as a shining beacon of anything. Hsu got cornered with some rough questions and had very lousy responses. It was funny. We're all gathering together and laughing about it. Some of us hate this machine more than others. For example.

so...we're suprized that Microsoft would create a shoddy and disapointing product, and we're suprized that a major corporation's hype machine would make promises that the product couldn't follow through on.

i'm seeing this as a PEBCAC issue, not a fault of the industry.

And you're saying our reactions aren't 'level headed'. Right.

We're not going through 'crusades,' and we're not trying to get other people to jump on the 'microsoft hater bandwagon'. We just think it's extremely weak for Microsoft to be making these sort of steps - the backwards compatability, the 360's 'giant upgrade in graphics and sound', etc - and stand by their machine as 'the most visually stunning graphics of all time.'
As long as you spend your money where you best feel it should be spend, purchasing the system(s) and game(s) that you want, I fail to see the need for any crusades.
I'm sure everyone is perfectly aware that 'if you don't like it, don't look', alright? But pointing it out as though it needs to be said seems a bit superfluous to me. As the customers in question, we are entitled to our complaints amongst ourselves reguardless of if we buy it.

[Lockeownzj00]

I agree. I'm fooling around with the whole dictatorship of the Anti-Microsoft proletariat thing. Hell, I still use Windows.

It's just a jab. I agree it's going through growing pains now, but my prediction is that a few core concepts and games that in the end won't matter will make the system 'appear' to be redeemed, when it's still shite.

[Mirai Gen]

Early post;

On that note, I'm pretty sure that, when the PS2 came out, it was a really overhyped system.

"It plays DVDs! And CDs! And PS1 Games! It can do everything!"

Yeah, and how useful was it when there were like, three or four games for it, and everyone lined up to get one? How useful was it when people suddenly realized that the graphics were easily outdateable?

And yet, no matter how much I try, I keep on looking over at Shadow of the Colossus, God of War, DMC1 and 3, Grand Theft Auto III-Andreas, etc etc etc.

The X360 will get better, but we still groan aloud at Shu.

[synkr0nized]

You'll have to forgive me, then, for generalizing this thread with that description after such phrases/word choices as "hate," "professionally as a liar who works for a company that makes a crappy console could have," "The Sun of TRUTH" (though that was very funny, so I do get that it was for humor), "to see through their game," and the notion of a hype machine. You have my apologies for not playing your game correctly and perhaps placing too much value on the jump-to-conclusions mat.

I should have never ordered one.

[Krylo]

I'm kind of curious... if Sony could make EVERY game backwards compatible from PS1 for the PS2, with a fraction of the money that Microsoft has available... why couldn't Microsoft do the same? The "Oh, I don't know... it's TECHNICAL" seems like a rather large load of shit to me.

Not that it matters, either way. I'm not a fan of any of the franchises the Xbox has, so I doubt I'll be buying any of their systems ever. Even if it could give me a visual blow job while playing every old xbox game ever, without the disks and for free.

...Just... curious.

[Fifthfiend]

I'm kind of curious... if Sony could make EVERY game backwards compatible from PS1 for the PS2, with a fraction of the money that Microsoft has available... why couldn't Microsoft do the same? The "Oh, I don't know... it's TECHNICAL" seems like a rather large load of shit to me.

Not that it matters, either way. I'm not a fan of any of the franchises the Xbox has, so I doubt I'll be buying any of their systems ever. Even if it could give me a visual blow job while playing every old xbox game ever, without the disks and for free.

...Just... curious.

As far as I understand it it's because the XBox's video card was NVidia and the new Xbox's card is ATI, which for one reason or another - patents and copyrighs and such, probably - they can't do on-hardware emulation the way the PS2 did.

[Nique]

As far as I understand it it's because the XBox's video card was NVidia and the new Xbox's card is ATI

Had they been forthright about that in the first place, or better yet, realized something like that might be a problem with fans who really really really want the backward compatibility feature, we wouldn't be in this mess now, would we?

[Mirai Gen]

I think Zeke has something to say on the subject.

But in all seriousness, I agree with Krylo. Something doesn't seem right with Microsoft, especially since they seem to forget - ever since the PS2/PS1, anyway - that backwards compatability is pretty much crucial.

And I'm with the interviewer when they say "At what point are you going to say, "Guys, get Splinter Cell working on the 360, okay?""

No matter what, it just takes a bit of programming. Get to it.

NOTE: this is in reference to other games, not just SC.

[Glorfindel]

I'm kind of curious... if Sony could make EVERY game backwards compatible from PS1 for the PS2, with a fraction of the money that Microsoft has available... why couldn't Microsoft do the same? The "Oh, I don't know... it's TECHNICAL" seems like a rather large load of shit to me.

Not that it matters, either way. I'm not a fan of any of the franchises the Xbox has, so I doubt I'll be buying any of their systems ever. Even if it could give me a visual blow job while playing every old xbox game ever, without the disks and for free.

...Just... curious.

I thought the PS2 was backwards compatible with all PS1 games because the sound chip in the PS2 was actually the PS1's graphics processor. The DS uses the same principle. It contains the GBA's processor. I don't think the PS2 is fast enough to emulate the PS1 through software.

[synkr0nized]

I thought the PS2 was backwards compatible with all PS1 games because the sound chip in the PS2 was actually the PS1's graphics processor.

The Playstation core processor itself was put into the Playstation 2 as its I/O Processor (http://www.us.playstation.com/consoles.aspx?id=2/info/PlayStation2/415007657.html), thus naturally providing hardware backwards compatibility (essentially, both consoles are in the PS2, as instructions meant for the Playstation are offloaded to this processor). Using the original Playstation's graphics processor as a sound processor? I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, nor would that provide compatibility.

[Nique]

Synk is correct. The PS2 is, effectivly, THE playstation. It has the hardware capabilities to run both PSX and PS2 video games (with some very few limited exceptions, if memeory serves, and it may not). Also, since the Disc reader in the PS2 is DVD, it is also capable of reading CD, which are the respective playstation 2 and 1 formats.

What get's me is that the popularity of such a feature is mind-numbingly obvious. Since it was blatently disregarded despite that knowledge, (excepting 'Barbie's horse adventure', and the other 2/3 of a game that are 'backwards compatible'*), this means Microsoft basically just told X-Box fans; 'Go suck on it. You'll buy the 360 no matter what we do or do not put on it. We OWN you.'

And lo, the X-Box fanatics beheld their 'golden calf', the 360, and it came to pass. Tablets were broken, bearded men were outraged, and the almighty smote the fanatics with console fires, disc read errors, and removed his blessing of hard-drive memeory space from the people.

[Buddha Fett]

I know that I'm not buying a 360 anytime soon... for the moment, it's a 500 dollar Xbox with 3 or 4 games I don't really want.