9/11 Loose Change part 2

[adamark]

So recently the 2nd edition of 9/11 Loose Change (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848) was released.

I was very skeptical of it, because I am very biased against conspiracy theories and such.

After watching all 80 minutes of it, I have to say that I am a little more disturbed by the evidence they present in the video. Especially about how the twin towers collapsed and how no other building in the history of man kind has fallen because of fire.

I don't know, I don't necessarily believe it, but 1 anomaly can be explain or even dismissed, but that many anomalies points to something greater.

Please watch the entire video before posting a comment.

[Toastburner B]

I don't have time to watch it at the moment, so I went over to Wikipedia and read about it.

For your anti-conspiracy needs, may I suggest this this Popular Mechanics article (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y). It covers everything from the seismographs to WTC 7 falling, to providing a picture of wreckage at the Pentagon.

Also, according to Wikipedia, one of the major claims is the standard "it was a missile, not a plane!" theory. This seems destined to be debunked due to the fact that videos of the plane hitting are being released sometime today (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pentagon.video/index.html).

[Bob The Mercenary]

Holy shit, dude. That's even better than "In Plane Sight". I'm ordering a dvd copy today.

Now, I used to be one of those guys who said "all of those conspiracy theorists are just insane." But, come on, you can't argue with any of that.

And Toastburner, THAT VIDEO EVIDENCE PROVES NOTHING. I saw it on the news and it shows NOTHING more than we've already seen...no plane.

[Toastburner B]

Now, I used to be one of those guys who said "all of those conspiracy theorists are just insane." But, come on, you can't argue with any of that.

Actually, yes (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/) you (http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/12/1787340.php) can.

There is even a viewing guide (http://tinyurl.com/epp82) that brings up evidence that shoots down the movie as it goes. (it's a .doc file...but it's 5MB long).


And Toastburner, THAT VIDEO EVIDENCE PROVES NOTHING. I saw it on the news and it shows NOTHING more than we've already seen...no plane.

Yeah...just watched the video. Less than impressive.

Of course, there is more than enough proof that it wasn't a missile.

Such as this picture of plane wreckage at the Pentagon.

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/0305911-flight77-sm.jpg

Or, you know, eyewitness testimony of what they saw. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/sept01/2001-09-14-pentagon-usat.htm) There's another one at the Popular Mechanics site.

Of course...all these guys are just part of the conspiracy according to these Loose Change guys, right?

[Bob The Mercenary]

That's one piece of plane hull. It's not even singed. Where are the engines, the cockpit, the black boxes for god's sake.

I read the first two articles you posted and am in the middle of the 5m doc file. Pretty interesting stuff. My moods with this issue have gone from purely a Bush-defender, to in the middle, to Bush-hater, to back to the middle. I might just remain in the middle for a while. It's safer there. =/

[Althane]

Blown all over the lawn, of course.

I'm really not into this conspiracy theories. If they wanted to get us united against a common enemy (which we definantly aren't), it would have taken less than that. Well, more than that, for a longer purpose, but less than that for a short term. Probably only one twin tower, or the Empire State Building (really, if you were planning on striking fear into people, that would be the tower to aim at. It's such a well known tower. That, and the white house, not the fucking pentagon. Incopotent idiotic terrorists. Sheesh) would be sufficient.

Right now, I'm in the middle, but leaning closer to being a Bush-defender. So, right-wing liberal, I guess? I dunno.

Anyways, I have SERIOUS doubts that the government can work together long enough to keep secret something this public for more than five years. First rule of thumb: More people who know about it, greater the chances of leak. To pull this off, you must of had dozens of people who knew about it. There would have been a tiny leak by now that would crack the entire thing open.

[ApathyMan]

That's one piece of plane hull. It's not even singed. Where are the engines, the cockpit, the black boxes for god's sake.What? You need a picture of all those?

Read the Popular Mechanics article, they interviewed the guy who found the black boxes.

Here's a damn fine question: Why would the government use a cargo plane for the first building, a commercial plane for the second building, and a missile for the Pentagon? I mean... that just doesn't make any sense.

Also... many of these aren't even anomalies, such as the whole "Jet-fuel temperature" bullshit or the supposed "puffs of smoke coming out of the WTC buildings."

There are a few things that might be suspect as well, such as the stock-market trading thing. However, this article (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/2/62018.shtml) shows a different perspective on the situation.

I think the title of the film sums up how much regard I put into it: It's just a bunch of loose change.

[Althane]

AND crash a plane in Penn State?

Ok, I'm moving into conspiracy mode, be warned. :D

First, the World Trade Centers. These were struck because they are a major symbol of New York, not to mention a, y'know, trade center. However, the government conspiracy hit these because they knew when losses would be minor, and they calculated that they could bring them down, as well as the impact that these would have upon the American people.

Second, the Pentagon. It's the fucking Pentagon. A strike here is a strike against the military, and our defenses (not much though). Why the GC would have hit it? Again, a visible building for the American people to rally around. Plus, a good target, as they knew certain sections would be closed.

Third, the Pennsylvania one. Allowed to crash because America needed heros to rally around, and these people worked excellently for this job. I mean, look at the United 93 movie that came out.

Alright, if I was planning these attacks, and knew that I had four planes, with the chance that one would go down, my targets would be as follows:

1) White House. It's where the President lives, and an attack here may catch him, and end up with America leaderless. Primo target.

2) The Capitol. One of the most visible symbols in America. Catch Congress in there, and damage to the government is possibly beyond repair, assuming you caught enough in there.

3/4) Target in New York. Starting with Empire State Building, then Statue of Liberty if the fourth plane makes it the whole way through.

Again, my strikes would be far more effective against our country than the ones that were done. In a mental stance at least. As for a physical blow? Probably the first two, along with some kitties.

[Toastburner B]

Anyways, I have SERIOUS doubts that the government can work together long enough to keep secret something this public for more than five years. First rule of thumb: More people who know about it, greater the chances of leak. To pull this off, you must of had dozens of people who knew about it. There would have been a tiny leak by now that would crack the entire thing open.

More like hundreds, actually.

From what I've read, the movie claims that the passengers of Flight 93 were offloaded in Cleveland. There were about 40 people (if you discount the presence of hijackers) that were offloaded. Now...unless you believe the government killed them all, that's 40 people who simply vanished.

You would also have to assume that most of the people who reported seeing an airplane at the Pentagon (http://home.planet.nl/~reijd050/JoeR/911_dump_of_Pentagon_quotes.html)(it should be noted that a few people claim to have seen a windowless plane hit the Pentagon, but that's a different conspiracy)...and in Shanksville were part of the conspiracy.

The government can't even keep quite on phone taps, you think it could of kept something like this a secret for so long?

[ApathyMan]

First, the World Trade Centers. These were struck because they are a major symbol of New York, not to mention a, y'know, trade center. However, the government conspiracy hit these because they knew when losses would be minor, and they calculated that they could bring them down, as well as the impact that these would have upon the American people.

Second, the Pentagon. It's the fucking Pentagon. A strike here is a strike against the military, and our defenses (not much though). Why the GC would have hit it? Again, a visible building for the American people to rally around. Plus, a good target, as they knew certain sections would be closed.

Third, the Pennsylvania one. Allowed to crash because America needed heros to rally around, and these people worked excellently for this job. I mean, look at the United 93 movie that came out.Fantastic. Unfortunately, one would need evidence to back up such claims.

That's the thing about conspiracy theories - the term is largely inaccurate. They're more like conspiracy conjectures or conspiracy hypotheses.

[Althane]

Fantastic. Unfortunately, one would need evidence to back up such claims.

That's the thing about conspiracy theories - the term is largely inaccurate. They're more like conspiracy conjectures or conspiracy hypotheses.

Hey, I was in conspiracy mode. I don't -need- evidence, what I think is automatically what everbody else doesn't think, therefore I must be right, and you're just a government agent trying to shut me down.

Yes, I'm mocking the conspiracy theorists. And enjoying it greatly.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Hey Althane, I just read the entire 140-something page document absolutely shutting down Loose Change and guess what...I agree with you! =D

Thanks for linking me to that thing, Toast. Sometimes my mind gets too open. I recommend everyone who believe the theories invest some time in reading that doc. It's partially restored my faith in the government.

[Althane]

Glad to see Toast and I saved someone. Though it was mostly Toast. ;)

Mmm... toast. (what? I'm hungry, it's breakfast time!)

Anyways, yeah, you have to guard your mind against crap like this. Not be close minded, mind you, but just sort it efficiently, and let the other side say its piece, before loosing faith in them.

Y'know, like college teachers are supposed to do. (yeah, right)

[MatticusPrime]

Conspiracy Theorists refuse to consider mundane alternatives
Counter Conspiracy Theorists dismiss everything out of hand
World continues to turn.

[Toastburner B]

Yeah...sorry if I was a little too hostile about it...but I've gotten tired of 9/11 conspiracies over the years (mostly due to another board I used to go to...every month used get a guy who said "A missile hit the Pentagon, and here's a Flash movie to prove it!!!").

I still need to get a copy of the 9/11 report and read it sometime.

[spazzhands]

While I want to stay away from this whole issue I do have to ask, If someone actually came out and said "Yeah, I was the one who planted the bombs on the twin towers, I was told to do it by the government!" Would anyone actually believe them? Wouldn't we just write them off as nutters?

I certainly would, although I don't want to commit to believing anything based off nothing other than an 80 minute film (no matter how well supported by news quotes and eyewitness reports). But I wouldn't be suprised if the government did do it.

To quote "The Dude" From "The big Lebowski"
...It's Like Lenin said! You look for the person that will benefit, and, err, you know, err, you know what I'm trying to say!

It did lead to a lot of over-zealous Jingoism among the american people shortly after 9/11. George W Bush has mentioned 9/11 about 850 times in his speaches. there almost seems to be an atmosphere if "You think The american government have done something wrong? well, if you do, then you are betraying all the people that died in 9/11!"
Hell, I received a letter from my american aunt who claimed that France had betrayed the 9/11 victims because they didn't go to war in Iraq with America.

There's both the motive and the means,
but even so, it still doesn't necessarily mean it was the government that killed about 3000 of its own people. And to be fair, there are probably a lot of people on the pro-conspiracy side that are putting their fingers in their ears as well.

[Toastburner B]

True. I'lll honestly admit that whenever someone screams "conspiracy", my default reaction is to roll my eyes.

I'm sure there is someone out there who can put together a well put together theory with the evidence to back it.

From what I've found, the guys who made Loose Change are not that someone. Poor grammar, go!

However, for some reason or another, my BS detector goes off when a movie starts with "OMG the government will arrest us for this! Spread the word before we vanish! LOOK FOR US IN GITMO!"

Okay...maybe they didn't say the Gitmo part...but the rest of it is in there.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1749799,00.html

Coincidentally, around the same time, I received an anonymously mailed package containing a DVD which purported to tell 'what really happened on 11 September 2001'. The DVD, entitled Loose Change: 2nd Edition, began with a warning that I could be arrested 'under section 802 of the US Patriot Act' for 'possession of this information' and a plea that I 'distribute this to friends, family and complete strangers before it is too late to do so'.

[Althane]

Section 802 merely defines domestic terrorism. Giving that tape to people hardly qualifies. Wackos.

Anyways, you wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. government had done it?

Y'know, if that happened, the first thing that would happen? Riots, all over the fucking place. And hell, I'd join them. But, I have absolutly no proof that the government did it, and more proof that it's an act of terrorism. Oh, and seriously, by now, the conspiracy would have been blown. Seriously folks.

[TheSpacePope]

Oh, and seriously, by now, the conspiracy would have been blown. Seriously folks.


Not nessesarily.
I do believe that the Cia did field tests with LSD during the MK ULtra project, yet all of the details of that project have not been made public.

The buildings went down to cleanly in my opinion. however, I am not willing to publicly implicate any member of our government in the crime. Just say that there were 50 some pages of the 9/11 report about saudi arabia's involvement that were classified and not released with the rest of the commissions findings. So there I definitely smell a fish here.

[Althane]

*Looks up MK Ultra*

See, now that's fucked up. But, all the same, yes, not all details have been told to the public (hey, if I was in charge, I'd burn the documents, and everything related. That kinda shit will mess up your career forever). But we've still heard about it, in a very positive way. This stuff, not so much. Plus, I have several sources that debunk these (see the articles that Tasty, I mean, Toasty, linked to) tapes and all.

[spazzhands]

And yes, it doesn't come together into a clean explanation for what happened... But some stuff just sounds MENTAL! For instance, the fact that people were betting on Boeing's stock prices crashing, the fact that nobody was allowed to investigate ground zero, or the fact that Mobile Phones don't work on planes flying at the altitude that people were calling their families from on 9/11.

That stuff just doesn't seem to have a reasonable explanation, and while the rest may be absolute bollocks, I still smell a rat (incidentally, they smell pleasantly of sandalwood... most of the time...)

[Azisien]

Um, I've used cell phones on airplanes before, so yeah...

[Althane]

Did they say they didn't work, or did they just not use them? I mean, afterall, you're told these horror stories of where they interfere with the plane and then you crash.... yeah

I thought they stopped putting in air phones, I haven't seen one on a plane in years. Before 9/11, even. So aren't cell phones the only thing to call with? What'd they use on Flight 93?

Btw, Azisien, bad boy, and your avatar is freaky. That is all.

[Bob The Mercenary]

I've seen an airphone on every one of my flights from 2004-2006, and that was like 7 or 8 flights on different airlines.

[Althane]

Huh, I've been on at least a dozen flights since 911 and I don't recall seeing any air phones on those flights, the only ones I remeber were on the international flights to Spain and.. either Italy or Greece (though those were pretty crummy planes, packed like sardines!)

Maybe I'm just flying the wrong flights?

[Toastburner B]

There are still airphones on planes.

If I recall correctly, a passenger used one to contact the ground, and told the operator what was going on. I'll have to go look it up to make sure, though.

EDIT: Yeah, I was partly right. It was Todd Beamer who used the airphone, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93#Passenger_and_crew_phone _calls):

Todd Beamer, another coach passenger, tried to place a credit card call through a phone located on the back of a plane seat but was routed to a customer-service representative instead, who passed him on to supervisor Lisa Jefferson. Beamer reported that one passenger was killed, and, later, that the pilot and first officer were mortally wounded. He was also on the phone when the plane made its turn in a south-easterly direction, a move that had him briefly panicking. Later, he told the operator that some of the plane's passengers were planning "to jump" the hijackers.


EDIT PART 2:

I couldn't find any information on Boeing stock being traded right before the attacks, but I did find some info on American Airlines and United stock being traded...but it was put down by Snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp)