My paradox

[Bob The Mercenary]

While I was brainstorming ideas for my book today I came across a problem. I've come to call it a paradox and you'll see why in a minute.

Before anything else, though, even though this idea spawned from my Christian background, please try to keep this as far from a religious discussion as possible.

The idea of death comes up a lot in my story, and I've worked to expand on it enough so that each and every death, no matter how insignificant, means something to one or more of the characters.

That being said, I believe that everyone on this planet has a reason for being here. I believe everyone's been put here to complete a series of tasks, which upon completion, results in an exit from this world in the form of dying. Now, the tasks I'm talking about aren't simple and general like "marry this woman" or "have this kid" or "obtain this career". They are every single thing we do, every person we have an effect on, every idea we create, and everything in between. This "to-do list" contains thousands of these tiny events that we think of as trivial which ultimately end up drawing a much larger picture and changing the world as we know it, however contrived that sounds.

In addition, I've come up with three rules to this "list" that cannot be broken:

1. Nothing can be added or subtracted to the list.
2. No one can avoid completing a task in the list.
3. The list cannot be shortened or left uncompleted by an "untimely death" such as suicide.

You see that you couldn't physically break any of these rules unless you were, let's just say it, a god.

Now, here's the paradox. Let's say that your death is set from birth. The time, the place, the cause are all hardwired into time. Let's assume that person A died at age 15 by way of suicide through shooting himself. Now, by his death we can assume he completed all tasks that he was sent here to complete.

What if he hadn't gone through with the act? What if he never loaded the gun, cocked it and fired? Would his to-do list be extended? Which isn't allowed according to my rules. Or would he have just died some other way at the exact same moment?

In the book I'm considering using this example to explain "freak accidents".

[gurusloth]

Well, basically you're talking about pre-destiny vs. free will. Do we have free will, or does it only seem that way? Your use of the word 'hardwired' seems to indicate that you are talking about pre-destiny. If the kid's destiny was hardwired into time, then I don't think it would be possible for something to alter that event.

That's how it seems to me, anyway.

[ZERO.]

If your idea of your death being hard wired into time is true, I would assume if by some accident your preset form of death was avoided, time would compensate and set some other form of death at a later time.

In theory you could avoid death with either pure luck or amazing survival Instinct you would eventually just die at some form of limit the universe has set for living things.

Edit: Then again nothing is set in stone.... well stone is but thats not the point.

What I mean is your actions affect the future what you do is because of you.

Then again it can all be preset and your just along for the ride, there is no real way to find out unless your a god or your dead and can talk with a god for a few seconds or so.

[pictish]

I'm failing to see the need for a paradox since with predestination 'that was just meant to happen anyway'.

On the other hand, I don't particularly see the need for the paradox since it's based upon premises that take massive, strider leaps in assumptions.

But to play along for a while, essentially all I'm saying is that if the to-do list is preset from birth, and it can't be left incomplete, then there's no reason to say suicide is a choice anymore than eating a banana. Suicide was the last thing on the to-do list, and so it happened. There's no real problem there since there's no way to show that the list is incomplete, since it's an imaginery list, not a list we can check.

*scores off "Reply to thread "My paradox"*

[Dragonsbane]

If it is his destiny to do those tasks, then by fate events would inevitably lead to him committing suicide and dying in the assigned manner. His friend's car would run out of gas before he could get to his house and talk him out of it. His girlfriend, with whom he recently separated, wouldn't take his depression seriously and would continue to slander him. His father would come home drunk and beat the crap out of him for no reason...again...the night before the suicide. His boss would choose not to overlook the extenuating circumstances, and fire him for being late. All of the events would fit together like an incredibly intricate puzzle in order to cause his death at the predetermined moment. Yes, this would also deny free will.

[ziratha]

But he didn't do something else, and he never would have. You needn't worry about what if's, in this world you are talking about, they simply do not occur. If he has a list of tasks, shouldn't his killing himself be the very last item on said list? And he cannot avoid the task at hand.

[Mirai Gen]

Now, here's the paradox. Let's say that your death is set from birth. The time, the place, the cause are all hardwired into time. Let's assume that person A died at age 15 by way of suicide through shooting himself. Now, by his death we can assume he completed all tasks that he was sent here to complete.

What if he hadn't gone through with the act? What if he never loaded the gun, cocked it and fired? Would his to-do list be extended? Which isn't allowed according to my rules. Or would he have just died some other way at the exact same moment?

In the book I'm considering using this example to explain "freak accidents".
This is less of a paradox and more of a self-contradiction. If you're saying you can commit suicide, then isn't that preordained mandate? Aren't you already implying that 'it was meant to happen' should the act be complete or incomplete?

I always get skeptical including the ever-popular fate in any of my books, except for Faith and Forgiveness, but that was almost entirely about religion. This is kinda why - you get to a point where you're wondering "maybe I'm bashing this whole fate buisness around a bit too much."

If you really want to kill a person and say that their list was incomplete, you can say another person - either born at that moment or already existing - takes up their tasks. That gets iffy, though, since that means that tasks can be 'transferred'.

In the end, this is what I think, and I know enough about writing books to say that I can't help you with that last bit.

[misterchainsaw]

Well, if a god could break the rules then wouldent that be why he didn't commit suicide? According to your ruels gods and break them. If the god needed this individual for some reason, then wouldent that be why he was kept alive?

I tried to anser your question staying within your boundaries, in no way are these my beleifs.

[TheSpacePope]

Actually Bob I have thought on this alot. You come from a christian background and I come from a scientific, however I do believe in a predestination of sorts. Here is how I look at it.

Everything has a specific gravity and energy moves through space in a waveform. We are made of energy so are subject to all laws of thermodynamics, gravitation and the like. think of it this way, life is like a rope and the fibers that make up the rope are all woven together, what one fiber does affects all others and vice versa. It is not strictly speaking, like that, that just shows you somewhat where I am coming from. The fact is we are all energy wavelengths with different specific gravities and makeups. Everything that you do interacts with the environment around you and how you interact with people changed the direction (path) of their energy. However minute, interaction with other beings has an effect. Whether or not you have things (whatever they are) to do here is entirely dependant on who you have interacted with. All energy waveforms interact with one another in different ways. Even as I am typing this, It is interacting with your energy. whether or not it is controlled by Elohim is up to the beholder. As far as predestination goes, I am not sure. However I think that if you are predestined, then how can there be sin, or even choice or free will since everything was what you were supposed to do in the first place. It cannot be set from birth. I have had many situations that I should have perished, but the thoughts and energies of others that were waiting for me, or that i had interacted with in the past, kept me grounded here. Your body is a receptor for a wavelength that we do not fully understand. But one thing is for certian; You aren't leaving enough room in the equation. The universe operates on a sort of "ordered Chaos" And the only thing that is constant is the will of the great magnet. (god, for those of you that believe in Him, the supermassive black hole at the center of the universe for those that do not)

Edit: Just so you know, I am not one of those new agers, that sits around and talks about crystal energies and shit like that, I just believe that there is an elegan t clockwork to how everything works and the key to all life, the universe itself, and everything :) is energy.

[IHateMakingNames]

If there was a fate, no matter what happens during this kids suicide, that is what was supposed to happen. If he loaded the gun and kills himself, then it was supposed to happen. If he ends up not dying, that was supposed to happen.

If however the kid some how does not do what he was fated to do (Die or live), then fate would instantly be destroyed. If he was meant to die, but does not, everything he interacts with would be free of their fate, since he was never supposed to interact with them at all. Eventually this would either spread to remove fate, or if he died soon afterwords the fate breaking would be contained and eventually supressed by everyone else's fates going as they should.

Edit - Also, isn' this the plot of Final Destination?

[Muffin Mage]

Simple:

Scenario 1: The kid had actually finished everything he was supposed to do. The list was incorrect. The system is flawed. The universe collapses.

Scenario 2: The kid died accidentally. The universe cannot advance until the paradox is resolved. For conclusion, read David Eddings' Belgariad and Mallorian.

Scenario 3: There is no scenario 3.

Scenario 4: The kid died accidentally. Proves that predestination doesn't exist. People laugh at their prophets and get on with their lives.

Scenario 5: The kid died accidentally. Proves that predestination doesn't exist. Divine entity destroys all of creation out of disgust.

There are more, of course. Just pick one and run with it.

[PraetorZorak]

"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."

~Dr. Stephen Hawking

[Bob The Mercenary]

In regards to fate, I come across this fuzzy part of the equation too. But, I believe that fate and free will can co-exist in a way. I think we all have a set path as to where we're going, but our free will is going to end up taking us that way anyway. If you get what I'm saying.

In regards to suicide, I don't think anyone is destined to commit it, which defeats my entire theory. If a person makes that choice, it's out of his/her own free will. Yet, somehow that event will assist in completing some other person's or people's task list.

Now I'm thinking myself into a wall. I'm going out for a coffee to soothe my synapses.

[MuMu]

The problem of Destiny is, it's something that can't be measured. Let's say you have two paths, right and left.
If you choose right, it was in destiny. But if you choosed Left, it was also in destiny. If you choose left, then come back and go right, it was already in destiny.

Destiny, is something you can't predict, because it's in the future, but you only know it was destiny when it already happened.

Thus, everything is destiny. Even Free Will.

[Lockeownzj00]

I hate to give pessimistic advice, but you're really only going to solve this with a plot device. You're trying to unify two concepts which are rooted in fantstical logic. It's fun, don't get me wrong, but the downside of this is that sometimes, no matter how hard you try to rationalise it, it just won't make sense. So you can only patch it up with another seemingly logical leap in logic.

What direction do you want the story to go in? Are you willing to allow "accidents" in this destiny called "fate?" Is it like Chrono Cross, where the protagonists are trying to kill fate? Or are you trying to figure out a way to make it not an accident?

There are many solutions, but we need to know what direction you're taking it.

[Bob The Mercenary]

It's really only a very small part of the story where this is discussed. The story as a whole has a completely different plot. I was just asking this because at the time I wrote it down, I couldn't figure it out myself.

[Roy_D_Mylote]

You said it yourself, no? The list can not be left uncompleted due to untimely death. Once a person's list is complete, that's the curtain call, according to your rules. Thus, if the kid hadn't shot himself, he would have died at the exact same time in some other way.

[MatticusPrime]

Perhaps there is no way to resolve this because of your starting assumptions. You're setting the rules up and then wondering why, under those rules, there is this paradox. Maybe the problem is with the rules, the starting assumptions.

I wanted to contribute more than this, but it's hard for me to work with hypotheticals that contradict the way I view reality. Still, maybe this will help you tackle the problem from a new angle so, you know, for what it's worth!

[ZERO.]

You think anyone actually thought out all this stuff about choice and what’s going to happen no matter what and just thought after a certain amount of time "aww fuck it!"?

Because that’s what’s happening to me right about now.

[Solid Snake]

Ah, yes. Your hypothetical scenairo directly corresponds to the theological debate between divine omnipotence and humanity's free will. Christians have argued this point for ages -- just check out the basic antagonizing premises of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Simply put, you either have one or the other -- you can't have both. Either the God/gods/divine being(s) of your novel have complete omnipotence, thus meaning they'd know beforehand whether or not any character would push the trigger and plan accordingly...or humanity has complete free will, and we can decide whether we push the trigger on our own.

Of course it should be noted that it is entirely possible to believe in divine omnipotence of a sort and still grant humanity free will -- that's what Arminianism is basically all about. The idea here would be that God (or the gods) know what will happen in the future -- and know which choices human beings will make -- but they still grant human beings the opportunity to decide. This would effectively be a relatively passive divinity, mostly inclined to let human beings choose their own destinies and rarely interfering with their lives.

An alternative argument often sprouted by Arminians is that the fact that human beings have free will to make their own desicions without divine interference is actually, in a sense, proof of God's omnipotence; this roundabout postmodernist argument is based on the premise that free will to subordinate beings is an exceptionally hard thing to conjure (it's the one thing we can't, for example, program for computers.) So the fact that we have free will basically means God is really powerful -- as opposed to really ineffective.

Arminians further posit that God allows us free will so that we can choose, on our own and without interference, whether or not to worship and love him; the theory goes that God, like us human beings, would rather prefer it if human beings weren't forced or "automatically programmed" to love him but rather given the choice. Love is more powerful and more meaningful if it's a voluntary emotion.

In regards to your novel, you need to decide the exact nature of your divinity. Is/are your God/gods/higher beings playing human beings like puppets on strings, or is free will granted because these divinities are imperfect or flawed? Or is free will granted because these divnities are purposefully passive, only interfering with certain "important" or "world-changing" individuals and leaving the rest of the populace to act on their own? Or is free will granted because these divinities are actually so powerful that they can anticipate and mold their plans around the accurately foreseen futures of every individual?

I wonder if I'm even making any sense anymore.

[Bob The Mercenary]

I wonder if I'm even making any sense anymore.

You are. :) Actually, it made me see the issue from a different point-of-view that I should've seen it from from the start.

I'll use the Bible as an example. In it there are tons of prophecies. I came to the conclusion that, yes, there would be no paradox if god can see into the future without infringing on free will. Well, if he can see in the future, he could make those prophecies and not use any special powers or anything to get the world to go in that direction. It wouldn't be his fault for the world going that direction, he can just tell what's going to happen from the start.

I think we've officially gone in a circle. But, I feel smarter somehow.

[neyo the king]

If the guy was supposed to die, but didn't, there are two things I could see the solution being.

One, the failed suicide might have been part of his "to-do" list, and not really the end of it.

Two, a deity of some sort might have thought "Hey, I could use him...", intervine in the suicide, and give him a new to-do list taht he wrote.

Those are the only solutions I can see by following your rules.