Nice Comment about how anime has gone "down hill" over the years

[Majin Darshe]

From here: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/columns/answerman.php?id=257

Question: Here's an interesting question. There's no way of denying it, but the general level of quality anime seems to have dropped over the last year. Western distributers are plugging a lot of re-releases of existing material, and quite a lot of the new aquisitions that can honestly be called high quality (Barefoot Gen, Gundam Seed, Samurai 7) are either classics that were produced almost a decade ago, or remakes of other classics.
In part, I think that this is mostly due to something of a lack of truly noteworthy anime that's being produced. At the moment, Naruto wins a lot of fans over here, as does Bleach, and I'm enjoying Monster. But there doesn't seem to be much in the way of the 'big classic' series that we all know and love (Cowboy Bebop, Kenshin, Witch Hunter Robin, and even the much overhyped Evangelion).
What are your thoughts? Are we presently in the middle of merely a dry spell, waiting for a new 'big thing' to re-infuse the industry with some real creative spirit? Or could the animation mileau have finally hit the point where there's no good stories left to tell?

Answer: Hold on just a second there. I'm pretty sure there is a way to deny that the general quality of anime has dropped over the years; in fact, I'll deny it right now!

I became an anime fan back in the mid-late 90's when shows like Fushigi Yuugi and Escaflowne and Cowboy Bebop and Evangelion were all the rage, and as the years have worn on, all of those series have become "classics", shows most people look back on as great examples of what anime can be.

Problem was, back then we only got the good stuff. Now we get everything, and to make matters more complicated, they're producing more anime than ever before.

Think about it this way; it's as if in previous years the only American shows Japan got were Lost, Battlestar Galactica and The Sopranos. They'd probably think that American TV is all very high-quality and that these instant classics are what to expect from them in the future. As years went on, more and more was being imported, so now they were getting Lost, Battlestar Galactica, The Sopranos... and also Dancing with the Stars and Two and a Half Men. It isn't that the programming got worse or that the new shows were all terrible and that no more classics were being produced, it's that now they're seeing everything, and like most things, 90 percent of it is crap.

I can point to at least 2 or 3 recent shows - like Fullmetal Alchemist, Gankutsuou, and even Beck - that are all at least as good as the stuff we were getting back in the day. There was never a golden age where the majority of anime being produced was instant-classic material; it's just that we're being exposed to more and more of it, especially with fansubs. So take heart - we're not in a "dry spell", you just need to be careful with what you watch.


All I can say is FINALLY someone put what I always wanted to say into words.

[Ominous Dominus]

Sounds like ALL television, not just Anime, to me.

Good comments, though.

[Majin Darshe]

Sounds like ALL television, not just Anime, to me.

Good comments, though.

Yes I do believe it applies to everything as well. Anime, TV, movies, video games...

[Eltargrim]

The reply is win.

Win and god.


Nostalgia does not better anime make.

[Silly Kitty]

Yeah, the reply pretty much gets it right. Plus, the animation has gotten so much better since the stuff I saw in the late 90's.

[Aerozord]

Fact is most anime sucks. That estimate is right, we only get about top 10%. And if you think that sucks you should see what most of the other shows in Japan are like. Those things make re-hashed reality shows look good.

However I am somewhat against the statement we are just getting more. I think it is also the variety of shows we are getting. They are begining to take chances with shows like Shin-chan and Bobobo. These are shows they never would have aired 10 years ago.

[Death by Stabbing]

Bobobo should never have aired...does any one understand what that crap is about? Hell I'd rather watch like somthing really horrible like...Joe Cocker or Elton John or Paul McCartney or a Chris Farley movie than Bobobo at least you can understand that shit but Bobobo is just pure nosensical crap...ok maybe I went a little to far with Joe Cocker and Elton John because that's just cruel and unusual punishement to make people listen to them not just watch them...

Oh and an other crap anime: One Piece.

I have 2 sentences for One Piece fans: There can never be a king of pirates!
Pirates have no king and there will never be a pirate king...never!

That is all
Death By Stabbing

[The_Phat_G]

The thing is, you don't watch super long series like Naruto and Bleach for the same reason you watch the 26 episode series like Samurai Champloo and Escaflowne.

You watch the shorter series for their quality, be it artistic, script, plot, or all of the above. In these series the characters are more unique and intriguing, and the plots deeper and more involved.

With longer series, you watch for a quick fix and the over-the-top action. Also, the humor and absurd situations the love interests get themselves into are almost always good for a chuckle or two.

[[ray.z]]

Well, having only began to watch anime recently, I can't say much on the topic.

But fortuneately for me, the anime's that I have been watching have consistently been getting better, since I have been watching a string of short series.

But yeah, in accordance with my experience with anime, both the answerer's and The_Phat_G's statement's are correct.


Oh and ...
Oh and an other crap anime: One Piece.

I have 2 sentences for One Piece fans: There can never be a king of pirates!
Pirates have no king and there will never be a pirate king...never!
And that's why you think it's crap? What kind of reason is that?

[Fifthfiend]

Can we not make this another One Piece Sucks thread? I mean we get it, everybody already knows that One Piece sucks. Except for the people who think One Piece doesn't suck and well let's face it, you're just not getting that horse to drink.

[Khael!]

I think a mega giant part of the problem is that companies are capitalizing on the whole collectable game thing. It all started with Pokemon. That game rocked. Hell, even the tv show wasn't intolerable for the forst 150 animals. But then came Beyblades. And Yu-gi-oh. And B-daman. And that other shiddy show that I can't even learn the name of because I have to leave to vomit first. These shows are secondary to the actual product, just meant to make the item look substantial enough for kids to want it. All of it's designed to cash in as a sellout and then disappear like Pogs.

Unfortunately, this is the shit we have to weed through to get to all the real series. Someone has to kill these commercial Animes - they're making the whole genre seem so low brow. Preferably with a machete.

[katsielyonz]

Most of the crappy Anime that they're airing on TV is targetted to either preteen or a teen audience. Think of Thundercats or Sailor Moon. When I was young I loved these shows, but now that I watch them when I get older I want to stab my eyeballs out. Kids are more willing to watch cartoons in general than older adults and are more willing to spend money on those cartoons. As the anime market expands, it's expanding from a niche clientel to a much broader one, from a few well rounded people to kids.

I am glad they are showing series like Wolf's Rain and Full Metal Alchemist, but those are usually only shown late night. Most of the Anime I watch I get on my own.

[Khael!]

Yes! Yes, yes! And Sailor Moon was hugely edited from the Japanese version because of certain censor requirements! Which probably screwed up the entire series! (If I were a girl, I'd probably be brave enough to watch a copy of the original with subtitles.... :shifty: )

[Majin Darshe]

I think a mega giant part of the problem is that companies are capitalizing on the whole collectable game thing. It all started with Pokemon. That game rocked. Hell, even the tv show wasn't intolerable for the forst 150 animals. But then came Beyblades. And Yu-gi-oh. And B-daman. And that other shiddy show that I can't even learn the name of because I have to leave to vomit first. These shows are secondary to the actual product, just meant to make the item look substantial enough for kids to want it. All of it's designed to cash in as a sellout and then disappear like Pogs.

Unfortunately, this is the shit we have to weed through to get to all the real series. Someone has to kill these commercial Animes - they're making the whole genre seem so low brow. Preferably with a machete.

I do believe that the popularity of anime based on card games has dropped rather sharply in the last few years, in the states at least. And it's not like Beyblades was EVER that popular in the US for more than a week, so I honestly don't think you have too much to worry about there.

[Khael!]

True, it wasn't. I must be hitting re-runs... I am sure I exaggerrated that - In my defence though, I have to put up with these phases of crappy anime products longer: I have a nine year old brother who's friends insist on watching the garbage. The funny thing is, after they went home, my brother commented in depth on how whatever-it-was show lacks good story or any amount of art quality.

A lot of the teen oriented shows seem to lack some tiny spark of true originality... until later on at night.

Man, I wish bleach would air earlier than 12:30 AM. It drives me bonkers that all the good anime is available through moneyful rent and buying! I don't have enough time to watch it what with homework, school, art, music and this site!

Princess Mononoke, now that was an awesome movie.

[Aerozord]

if I may point something out, it appears most of the 'crap anime' people are citing tend to be the ones that were highly editied like yu-gi-oh.

Anime itself is not targetted at the preteen crowd, some are but some aren't. Anime is targetted at ages from 6 to 30 to entire families. Major problem is the US steriotype that cartoons are for kids. So even if an anime is originally targetted at 20+ crowd, it will most likely be highly editted so it is acceptable for the 13- crowd. Oddly enough its the mainstream US culture that makes it so hard to get good anime on TV.

[Eltargrim]

A bit high on the age range, Aerozord, but I'd generally concur. Early-mid twenties sounds more reasonable.

All in all, I prefer the shorter, 1-to-2 season series more. The style of plot development in the longer series just doesn't appeal to me.

And then, of course, you have Haruhi, which is 14 episodes of pure, undiluted orgasm

EDIT: Khael, I definately agree with you. Are you, by chance, living in the Central time zone in Canada? All the decent anime goes on from 11:30-1:00 (I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but all shows before 11:30 have too many fucking episodes), plus Ghost in the Shell.

Also, Mononoke-hime is win and god.

[Khael!]

Wait, what? Yu-gi-oh was edited profanely too?? It looked like it had a hint of hope, and then catastrophe. It got censor-slapped!? Wow, I wasn't aware that the 'age category' for cartoons in Japan was so much broader than North America.

Yeah, I live in Ontario/Quebec. Eastern time zone I think. Orphen was a good series, and only two seasons like you were saying. Didn't like the art in the second one nearly as much, but I'm picky. The story for the second season was a bit slow too, but it finally pulled every elegant strand together right at the intense-oh-my-ghods-never-expected-THAT end. I highly recommend at least season one to you guys if you haven't seen it already.

[Eltargrim]

I'll have to keep that in mind.

Yu-gi-oh, not edited profanely? Give the developers some credit. It's just that not many people take that subgenre terribly seriously, so we didn't get the outcry like when One Piece was defiled.

Oh yeah, the age range is so much bigger. You think Ghost in the Shell or Elfin Lied are intended for 10-year-olds?

[Aerozord]

Wait, what? Yu-gi-oh was edited profanely too?? It looked like it had a hint of hope, and then catastrophe. It got censor-slapped!? Wow, I wasn't aware that the 'age category' for cartoons in Japan was so much broader than North America.

Yeah, I live in Ontario/Quebec. Eastern time zone I think. Orphen was a good series, and only two seasons like you were saying. Didn't like the art in the second one nearly as much, but I'm picky. The story for the second season was a bit slow too, but it finally pulled every elegant strand together right at the intense-oh-my-ghods-never-expected-THAT end. I highly recommend at least season one to you guys if you haven't seen it already.
In yugioh they cut out the entire first season because they found it to be too violent. Basically in the first season Yugi just went around killing people or mentally torturing them to the point that they want to die. All the violence and sex was removed, nearly every card edited, not to mention the swearing and blood.

In fact the card game is actually pretty minor. They just cut out pretty much everything else. The show was originally about an evil 5000 year old spirit called yu-gi-oh (roughly translating into king of games). Everytime someone wronged Yugi the spirit took over and challenged them to a game. When they lose they suffer a penalty game. These range from being set on fire, ever lasting illusions, death, being cut off from sight and sound, being eaten alive, ect. Want to know what really happened when Kiaba lost? Yugi made all the monsters in his deck come to life and devour him, he then regenerated and they did it again and again. I think it lasted a month. He litterally went insane from the pain.

Unfortunately the show went from that to a show about happy friendship and playing cards. Truth is just about every time someone lost to Yugi they were dead, or wishing they were. One of my faorites was Yugi trapped someones soul in a jar where it was devoured for 3 months by 25 dragons untill it no longer existed.

Yu-gi-oh is meant for high school age group, not ten year olds. And now you know why we all hate 4kids

[Satan's Onion]

Yes! Yes, yes! And Sailor Moon was hugely edited from the Japanese version because of certain censor requirements! Which probably screwed up the entire series! (If I were a girl, I'd probably be brave enough to watch a copy of the original with subtitles.... :shifty: )

Probably?

Buddy, you don't know the half of it. (http://www.smuncensored.com/)

I mean, really. Cousins? Was that the best they could come up with for Haruka and Michiru, cousins!? Oh, for the chance to smack whoever dreamt up that little gem...

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

Yu-gi-oh is meant for high school age group, not ten year olds. And now you know why we all hate 4kids

This is how 4Kids treats its anime's and why we hate them for it. (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=145)

[[ray.z]]

All in all, I prefer the shorter, 1-to-2 season series more. The style of plot development in the longer series just doesn't appeal to me.

And then, of course, you have Haruhi, which is 14 episodes of pure, undiluted orgasm

I think most people would prefer a shorter series more, due to the fact that they are just so much better when it comes to overall quality.

...

And I'll post a couple of sites about anime's being mutilated ....

SaveOnePiece.com (http://killthemongoose.satamsonic.com/onepiece/)

DBZ Uncensored (http://www.dbzoa.net/dbzuncensored/)

I wish I could see that unedited Yu-Gi-Oh

[Fighter=Genius]

Um...just wow about that unedited yugioh thing. Honestly if that's what had aired here I'd have watched every episode. And this may seem kinda random but what are your opions on the FLCL dub?

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Anime now adays is not nessisarily 'worse' than it use to be. However, when there has been more shows out than I ever saw back in the 90s and less good shows, then that means something is wrong. When I have access to 10x the amount of Anime but only see half or less of the amount of shows being of the quality I would say is 'good or excellent', then to me its an accurate statement that Anime after 2000 hasn't been 'as good' as the 90s or 80s.

And this is coming from someone who has some of his favorite shows post-2000. Hajime no Ippo, Kodomo no Omocha, Princess Tutu, Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Ah! Megami-sama, Utawarerumono and some others. Still, the amount of shows I would say are must-see series and have amazing characters and plot are still much fewer in number, despite some of them being as good or even better than a lot of shows before it.

From 1992 to 2000, I can name at least 5 (many times 10 or more) whole series a year which were either good or amazing. I can only name about 1-3 per year from 2000 on. This is where many people's perception of Animes quality 'lessening' comes from. And the change in Animation quality is a whole 'nother subject that puts a whole confusing set of pluses and minuses to this argument as well...

-----

Edit: Another problem that makes this subject so heated is that a lot of people who are for '90s is better' did get into Anime before 2000 and a lot of those who are for 'Newer Anime is better' got into Anime Post 2000 (with shows like Naruto, Love Hina and Full Metal Alchimest). But its not as simple as nostalgia vs incompetence. For many of the people, myself included, I view that the90s had the best run of Anime because I can look at all of objectively. There's been shows I use to obsess over that I no longer enjoy as much, like Magic Knight Rayearth or Escaflowne. And at the same time, I see people doing the same thing and saying all the same things I said about those shows in the past for shows like Full Metal Alchimest, Bleach and even shows I really really like such as Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

And so time is the only real judge of how this argument will play out. And many of the people I know who started on the post 2000 shows have been very hesitent to watch anything before 2000 (mostly due to 'worse animation'). But as I get them exposed to it, they start to see what is good about the past shows and many of them have started to feel like perhaps the 90s was the best time. When any given year could produce a run of Sailor Moon, Ranma, Kenshin, Eva, Slayers, Saber Marionette, Sakura Taisen and Gundam all at the same time. I really just don't see such things happening post 2000, where Anime is mostly 40 Ecchi/Romance comedy clones, 5 Shonen Action Series, 5 Shonen Sports Series, Gundam Seed Destiny Again Overdrive Redux Season 59-2, a couple shows based on popular non-h games, Pokemon, Digimon and a handful of hit-or-miss original series.

[Majin Darshe]

What I mean about Khael exagerating was that all of these Cardgame/Toy shows ARE NOT going to go up to high-quality shows and murder them are anything. They'll always be there, and they'll always be made. You just have to keep looking. Hell, in my opinion, people who say there's no more good anime are just people who are too lazy to go out and take risks.

And honestly, I don't see why we're stilling complaining about edited anime so much, as it's really become such a very smal percentage of all the anime that's being released in the states, and most of the shows that have been edited that are worth damn have already been given uncut releases.

[Mirai Gen]

For the record, I really hate it any time when a single person becomes so fucking apeshit powerful that they singlehandedly kick the shit out of Mr. Bad Guy 1-10, then they have a season 2.

I fucking hate it.

It's Dragon Ball Z all over again. It's nonsensical, and it's stupid. It's everything that I hate about Anime, and everyone's been doing it. Bleach did it after they finished with the Spirit City story arc, Naruto did it after they stopped fucking around with Zabuza and Haku and got into the tournament, and Dragon Ball Z did it after it got the "Z" in it's title.

It especially doesn't make sense in the 'better' anime, like Naruto for instance. How can this kid kick the shit out of ninjas thrice his skill, and only be a fucking chump? Why is he still pulling weeds and walking dogs if he could trounce people twice his age?

I still liked Naruto and Bleach, but I stopped watching at around those points.

Sailor Moon thankfully never really did that, since it was more about the "Hidden bad guys" and not really about the "Power levels."

And, yeah, Sailor Moon got hacked when it came to the US. Heavily. I'd like to see it uncut, if only because I had this Sailor Moon thing when I was 13 and onwards.

...I never even got to see the final battle with Beryl...

[Majin Darshe]

Well...thank you for all of that, although I don't really think it adds much to this discussion, since I believe that the entire point of this topic is that there IS more anime out there than the shows you are mentioning...


And keep pushing for Bleach, the Arrancar Arc should be hear soon enough (waves a flag for Ulquirra)

[Aerozord]

to get this out of the way. I have no problem with mindless slaughter. Heck you can even get a sick pleasure out of it. Like the Broly movie, I doubt I was the only one that enjoyed seeing Goku and gang have their butts handed to them.

Naruto I am not a huge fan of, mainly because if Naruto is ever gonna lose well what do you know the fox demon gives him more power. That fox was the strongest creature period. Besides later on it amounts to who has more chakra. Worst of all, I have NEVER seen Naruto act like a ninja. Ninjas are agents of stealth. They spy and quietly assasinate. They aren't warriors that fight in grand one on one battles. A ninja sneaks into your house and slits your throat while you sleep

Besides, what ninja dresses in bright orange?

I dont hate Naruto, but I rarely get an episode I would want to see more then once.

Back on topic. That is an excellent point about how we cant look too objectively at 21st century anime. But we can still compare the trend from anime in the 80's to the 90's.

From what I have heard, anime production in Japan has become rather mechanicnized. Plots and characters decided by marketing teams and commitees. But that isn't really that new, after all most anime is nothing more then an animated manga. Most are straight ports like Naruto, DBZ, and Bleach.

[The_Phat_G]

What really gets me are these shitty anime-only arcs, like the Bounto arc with Bleach or the current arc in Naruto (I dunno what it's called, cuz I don't actually watch it). I was seriously pissed off when Bleach's new arc amounted to be nothing more than one of those crappy new-age vampire jigs.

Seriously, what's up with this shit? Why can't they just stick with the manga's storyline?

[Aerozord]

reason is because they started the anime before the manga was completed. So they used the fillers so the manga-ka could produce more books which could then be made into anime. That is also why only the first two or three episodes of Hellsing match the manga.

[Eltargrim]

And why the FMA anime went in a different direction than the manga (Which I actually appreciate; I've read/watched both, and I liked not automatically not knowing what would happen).

[Majin Darshe]

As I've said before, The Bount arc is NOWHERE near as bad as most filler-arcs. Hell, I'll go and say that it's quite good in fact.

Naruto on the other hand...it's on it's way to get cancelled EXACTLY like Rurouni Kenshin did, take my word for it.

And splitting away from the manga is the best thing the FMA anime ever did, and I asure you that you won't hear me say THAT sort of thing often.

God I hate Ling...

[Vaij]

In yugioh they cut out the entire first season because they found it to be too violent. Basically in the first season Yugi just went around killing people or mentally torturing them to the point that they want to die. All the violence and sex was removed, nearly every card edited, not to mention the swearing and blood.

In fact the card game is actually pretty minor. They just cut out pretty much everything else. The show was originally about an evil 5000 year old spirit called yu-gi-oh (roughly translating into king of games). Everytime someone wronged Yugi the spirit took over and challenged them to a game. When they lose they suffer a penalty game. These range from being set on fire, ever lasting illusions, death, being cut off from sight and sound, being eaten alive, ect. Want to know what really happened when Kiaba lost? Yugi made all the monsters in his deck come to life and devour him, he then regenerated and they did it again and again. I think it lasted a month. He litterally went insane from the pain.

Unfortunately the show went from that to a show about happy friendship and playing cards. Truth is just about every time someone lost to Yugi they were dead, or wishing they were. One of my faorites was Yugi trapped someones soul in a jar where it was devoured for 3 months by 25 dragons untill it no longer existed.

Yu-gi-oh is meant for high school age group, not ten year olds. And now you know why we all hate 4kids

THAT sounds fucking badass. I am so buying those DVDs.

Anyway, I think that the fact that kids are the major anime-watching audience in America really tends to kill any hope of watching an anime show at a sane hour that doesn't make one want to vomit. However, anything I have to say is kind of a moot point, as I currently don't live in America.

[Majin Darshe]

Honestly Aerozord, with all due respect I don't think uncut Yugioh is anywhere NEAR as graphicor disturbing as you make it sound, even in the later seasons and the Memory arc. And quite honestly none of that can really save the show, or erase the fact that it's still a show based on a card game

[Aerozord]

but its not about a card game, they cut out everything that wasn't about it. Granted the anime is still tame compared to the manga. But the most violent arc, season 0, was never even aired which really ticks me off. And the most tame season (season 1) is the only one you can actually get uncut. Yu-gi-oh isn't violent in the same way most anime are. Its not blood and gore, but horrible mental torture people are subject to.

Now that I think about it, Memory arc wasn't really that cut up. But I wish I could have seen Bakura turn those bandits into red paint.

[Sesshoumaru]

I'm gonna be a jerk of techniqality here, but the "Season 0" of Yu-GI-Oh your talking about is a completly seperate series (hence the reason the animation is different, and Kaiba has green hair). It was based on the first 7 (I think) volumes of the manga. The reason it wasn't aired in the US is because no one's licensed it yet. And yes, it is mostly about Yami mentally torturing people with shadow magic.

*I beleive it was called the 'Shadow Games' arc.

[Majin Darshe]

but its not about a card game, they cut out everything that wasn't about it. Granted the anime is still tame compared to the manga. But the most violent arc, season 0, was never even aired which really ticks me off. And the most tame season (season 1) is the only one you can actually get uncut. Yu-gi-oh isn't violent in the same way most anime are. Its not blood and gore, but horrible mental torture people are subject to.

Now that I think about it, Memory arc wasn't really that cut up. But I wish I could have seen Bakura turn those bandits into red paint.

And what I'm saying is that even the "mental torture" isn't even that impressive. "Oh no, I'm falling into a pit of monsters!" or "Oh no, my chair is eating me!" or "Oh no, I've been set on fire!" Really, all of "season 0" is just a lame nerd revenge fantasy, and things just get worst once the show focuses on cards (and don't say it doesn't. When there is a card game in almost every episode, the show is about cards)

[Mirai Gen]

Well...thank you for all of that, although I don't really think it adds much to this discussion, since I believe that the entire point of this topic is that there IS more anime out there than the shows you are mentioning...
I just needed to get that out.

I don't watch anime terribly much. There were a few movies of anime I saw a long time ago, but other than that I don't do much "Sit and watch" entertainment.

Except Transformers. But it's neccesary.

[Magus]

Well, I like Escaflowne and Cowboy Bebop...AND Fullmetal Alchemist and whatever (I'm pretty much obsessed with FMA at the mo', I hope another anime pops up somehow because I'm starting to get bored with it). I like good anime and don't like crappy anime. All there is to it. Basically it has to 1. have good animation 2. everything else follows because usually if it has good animation it means they have a good budget means they have a talented writer, artists, etc.

This is not always true. I hate NGE. Then again a lot of people do. I hate Naruto and all of these other 4Kids abominations, though. I'm sure the original is SOMEWHAT better, but seriously, they can't be that much better. It just seems like the animes that have a good plot and characters end up having good animation, as well. It's not ALWAYS true (I like some of those older animes that are all stilty looking, Slayers, anyone?), but it's usually true.

I'm glad Fullmetal Alchemist got picked up by Adult Swim and wasn't edited, because being somewhat cartoony looking instead of heavily realistic looking it was a prime candidate for a 4Kids makeover, because if it looks cartoony then it the plot must cartoony and prime for kids, right? Gah. Not that they can't do that with other animes, but usually the more realistic they look the less chance they'll try and edit them to death (Outlaw Star got edited ENOUGH, but it was still fairly good, for example. Same for DBZ, as good as DBZ can be, I mean, I hate DBZ now, but as far as the actual anime edit went they did still punch and kick each other).

An 4Kids Elfen Lied edit would be hilarious, by the way. I'd almost wish they'd abominate it just so I could see how the heck they'd do it. B^)

Really, in the yesteryear, before 4Kids existed, anime edits were fine. I watched Escaflowne, and all they really edited was whatever swearing and some of the blood. It was still the same thing. Same with Outlaw Star and all the other animes I watched when I was a kid. Then 4Kids comes along and ruins everything.

[Majin Darshe]

I hate Naruto and all of these other 4Kids abominations

...in all fairness, 4Kids didn't do Naruto...

Basically it has to 1. have good animation 2. everything else follows because usually if it has good animation it means they have a good budget means they have a talented writer, artists, etc.

Revolutionary Girl Utena destroys your argument utterly.

And over the last few weeks I've beginning to realiaze a couple things about the anime fans on this board...and people seeming to go on rants and tirades about edited anime at the drop of the hat seems to be one of them. It's really boring really, because

A: As I've said before, it's not really that much of an issue anymore (I think edited manga is starting to become a more prevalent issue, although I don't think that I'll be going up in arms about it), and

B: NONE OF YOU HAVE ANYTHING NEW TO SAY ABOUT IT. You just keep ranting on and on and on about it ANY time anime is mentioned! Who cares about speculating if 4Kids got Elfen Lied or FMA? They didn't! So dont worry about it!

I don't know, it just seems like everyone here is just proving what the guy I quoted at the beginning of this topic was saying about how people are starting percieve anime.

[Magus]

Pssh, you should at least use my whole quote where I said I liked Slayers and a few other animes that aren't of the highest animation quality. I like Record of Lodoss War, for goodness sake, most of it is STILLS. :D

And also for the record, I hate all the Shonen Jump animes everyone was complaining about getting edited, but I can still feel sympathy for them.

[Fifthfiend]

Revolutionary Girl Utena destroys your argument utterly.

Divergence Eve had a great animation budget, basically all of which they spent on jiggle.

I'm okay with self-important space psychodrama and ridiculously oversized boobies, it's the two of them together that kind of threw me for a loop.

[Astral Harmony]

Divergence Eve had a great animation budget, basically all of which they spent on jiggle.

I'm okay with self-important space psychodrama and ridiculously oversized boobies, it's the two of them together that kind of threw me for a loop.

And what little that wasn't spent on jiggle went into the 3-D stuff.

And I totally agree with the reply.

[Sesshoumaru]

Elfen Lied on 4Kids would be like be watching Boondock Saints on broadcast television...(I did that once, they cut 3/4 of the scenes and 2/3 of the dialogue =/). Still, it was pretty funny to see the way they tried it...

[Magus]

The Pulp Fiction edit was far worse than the Boondock Saints edit (they actually managed to cut the gimp in the basement ENTIRELY OUT OF THE MOVIE. It was the most insane thing I ever saw. I have to say whoever edited it had my respect for managing it. Seriously the most hilarious thing I've seen for a long time, them managing to cut him out like that. It was horrifically noticeable that they cut something out there, of course, so maybe the editors weren't that hot, but still, just attempting it and succeeding, however clumsy--it's amazing). Scarface was also amusing, though that was only cutting out or changing swear words or whole lines of dialogue (much better and creative attempt went into it).

Err, ahem, back to anime edits, I remember an editing mistake on Cartoon Network left the a line from Outlaw Star said by Gene Starwind to one of the MacDougal brothers' in and unchanged. The line? "You bastard!" 5:00 on primetime kids television, I kid you not. I thought it was quite kickass. I'm sure soccer moms the world over gasped in shock, but maybe not. I never heard anything about it. I'm sure they caught it and edited it out for any repeat showings, too. Still was pretty amazing they left it in.

[ZERO.]

You know for some reason the girls at my school love naruto.

I don't understand why though.

I will watch the show from time to time, but all I see is that little kid get the crap beat out of him, then by some ungodly chance he wins everytime.

Am I missing something?

[Magus]

Yet more proof that we shall never understand women.

EDIT: Oh, and the only episode I watched, Naruto's mission was to use his shapeshifting powers to spy on women in a women's bathhouse. So this only proves the women love a peeping tom. But why do I keep getting maced?!

[Thingol]

Naruto was amusing for 2 episodes maybe?

Then you realized it was always he gets his ass kicked, then powers up and hits the baddie with Shadow Clone Jutsu. Every time. :/

And Naruto kinda just reminded of the same bumbling idiot as Vash, minus the occaisional moments of bad ass. But they're making a Trigun the movie. This is a sign of how much anime has degraded over the years. :(

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Really, in the yesteryear, before 4Kids existed, anime edits were fine.

Anime edits were never fine. Not now and not then. They are edits of the original show and therefore make it something new. Something different. Something that is not how it was made originally.

They make it a second version of whatever you are watching. I don't want to watch Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade missing the bike chase. Just like I don't want to watch CardCaptor Sakura missing half of each episode. Same exact thing, except you don't see hollywood movies being edited except for extreme things and Anime series get edited for no reason whatsoever. 9 times out of 10 because some comapny 'thinks' America won't want to see some part of the story that isn't even gory or too harsh or because the editors persoally don't like that part of the story.

And many of you justify it is why it keeps happening.

I like good anime and don't like crappy anime. All there is to it. Basically it has to 1. have good animation 2. everything else follows because usually if it has good animation it means they have a good budget means they have a talented writer, artists, etc.

.....no. There are a ton of good shows that didn't get much of an animation budget (Slayers Season 1, Eva, etc) and there are plain awful shows which had large animation budgets (half of GONZOs works). And that just doesn't work for the simple fact that some shows put all their money into animation and nothing into anything else, producing crappy shows...with high quality animation.

I know what you are trying to say and sometimes this works. Especially in the 1996-2001 time period tis was the case with series gaining higher animation budgets as they went on in proportion to their popularity. But now adays we have a LOT of shows that are just 12-14 episodes being completed before airing and almost all the money going into animation.

It doesn't work to think like that anymore.

You know for some reason the girls at my school love naruto.

I don't understand why though.

Sasuke.

No really, that's 50% of them right there. The other 50% are because of well, why do a lot of guys like watching Sailor Moon, a 'Shoujo' series once aimed at girls? If you flip it, you'll see why girls like watching Naruto, a Shonen show put on Cartoon Network (all Shonen all the time CN) aimed at 12 year old boys.

[Lord of Joshelplex]

Anime hasnt degraded, we just get more of it, and its like sitcoms here, we have the good, Seinfeld, Raymond and Drew Carey. We have the bad, Taht's so Raven, Friends, and pretty much all the new ones. We used to only get a bit of anime, and most of that little bit was good, now we get most of the crap. Perfect example, Gundam. Original Universe, Wing, X, good. Seed bad. If you want to watch an epic that is very new, Stan Alone Complaex, hell, Peacemaker and Saiyuki (bet you havem't heard of either) are excellent. Anime hasnt gone downhill, we just get the bad stuff more than the good due to the increase in interest.

[synkr0nized]

That was just one person's opinion.
In fact, any kind of post concerning the alleged quality of anime [or any entertainment medium] must be held accountable for its unavoidable bias. One might try to support the opinion with data from surveys and polls, for example, but that still doesn't create a firm foundation upon which a solid "Yes" or "No" can be built.

I don't necessarily agree. I could easily sit down and make an argument against that claim, as was done in the quoted piece in the original post. However, I could probably create an argument in agreement with that claim as easily, depending on my wording and the formulation of the argument. We could even throw in a third option -- that anime has not gotten worse but rather that it has always been bad. :P

I find that I have more "success," such as it is, when talking with people about anime when I present it as something I enjoy and as something they may enjoy for similar or different reasons. It can present an immediate roadblock when beginning with the idea that someone must or should like something. I bring this up because I imagine that those who may feel that it is degrading or whatever would do better in their argument if they were more clever in their attacks of recent anime.


Another way to look at this is from a more technical aspect.
Budgets are bigger, technology is better, and techniques have improved. Aside from personal likes and taste, I believe one would be hard pressed to claim that what is done today is inferior, at least from the visuals [stories can still plop].

[Lord of Joshelplex]

Who cares really, there's plenty of good anime coming out there, Saiyuki, Peacemaker, Stand Alone Complex, Eureka 7, FMA to name a few. Maybe ii just has to do with people likes and dislikes nowadays, maybe less of the styles or genres they like are coming out. It can go either way. The only TV that has actually gone down hill is reality TV. Bad at first, now its even worse.

[Fifthfiend]

Growly voice: "We're badasses!"

Growlier voice: "Yeah well we're even badder badasses!"

Growly voice even growlier than before "Yeah we'll we're even badderer baddasses to the Max!!!"

Defeated Voice: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"

This has been Every Episode of Saiyuki, Ever.

Thank you and Good Night.

[Lord of Joshelplex]

I take it your not a fan.

[Fifthfiend]

Well I've watched enough of it to be able to present Every Episode of Saiyuki Ever, so clearly I can't hate it all that hard. But it's nothing I'd really hold up as the shining example of Anime as an art form.

I shall construct thusly - if Inuyasha is Dragonball Z for girls? Then Saiyuki is Inuyasha for dudes.

Aye, it is so.

[Mirai Gen]

Heh. I like that. "Dudes". Not "Guys".

I still stand by my belief that Bleach is Dragon Ball Z for 'wiccan's and Naruto is Dragon Ball Z for that little nine year old who had a ninja costume for Halloween.

Felt the need to say that.

Does anyone have good things to say about the Viewtiful Joe and F-Zero animes?

[Magus]

No no, Kenryoku, you can't expect them NOT to edit television shows for violence. Simple television standards restrain them. However when they go above and beyond and start overconforming to American standards just to sell it to a progressively younger group is where all the trouble starts. What was edited originally to appeal to 12 year olds is suddenly starting to be edited to appeal to 5 year olds. That's all I'm saying. Perhaps I should say that anime edits used to be tolerable, not fine.

Now, obviously, if you're buying anime straight from the source it shouldn't be edited at all! For example, in the English FMA manga release they edited Greed's death so that the rock he is attached to is irregular shaped, because in the original he's attached to a cross-shaped rock (pretty much literally crucified). That's just unbridled censorship. If they can show him crucified at all, they should be able to show him crucified to a cross-shape if they want! It's a double-standard.

Then again arguably if you cut out the blood from someone getting kicked in the face it's arguable that if you can show someone getting kicked in the face then you can show the blood flying. But then we're back to TV standards. Personally we can be thankful for Adult Swim which is fairly limited to swearing edits, I believe. And probably some fairly stupid things like the above mentioned cross reference (though the ending of GITS: Stand Alone Complex still had Battou busting the Major out with a cross-shaped girder and NGE still had it's numerous cross references so maybe that's not an issue with Adult Swim's producers).

Anyway, which is better? Not be able to watch the show at all (on television), or to have it edited (within tolerable limits)? I prefer being able to watch it if I can.

And for the records I thought Slayers had pretty decent animation (episodes 1-12 are all I've watched), so don't think my standards are too high.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Another way to look at this is from a more technical aspect.
Budgets are bigger, technology is better, and techniques have improved. Aside from personal likes and taste, I believe one would be hard pressed to claim that what is done today is inferior, at least from the visuals [stories can still plop]. [/B][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

Actually, because of how the Anime industry is right now and BECAUSE technology is better, budgets are actually a lot smaller than they were in the 90s. And because many Anime studios are in financial distress or just not making as much as they were 5+ years ago, they are following formulas. And the popular formula as of late is make as many low budget, 13 episode shows with similar design and time put behind them as a studio can. Then for whichever ones are lucky enough to become popular, extend them until the public is so sick of them they are petitioning for them not to be made anymore.

Before recent times, the idea of making a show less that at least 20 episodes was pretty out there and meant the show would probably suffer from lack of fans. Now adays its like we're hard pressed to even fine one series that isn't a Major Shonen Jump or CLAMP series that first comes out planned to be more than 14 episodes. I was shocked when the show Utawarerumono ended up being announced as 26 episodes. And even then, the show had a DISMALL art budget because of their choice to make it like that. Even when you can tell the art got way better in later episodes, it was because of the artists taking time and effort into drawing the scenes and not that the show gained any extra money. And it suffered from a few episodes where you could tell they scraped by with minimal movement of anything on screen. And most of the show has lots of repeating animations.

Not that the show is bad. Its Suikoden + Tail and owns all. I'm just saying its a good example of how Anime companies are hard pressed to put large budgets on shows now adays. BONES, CLAMP, Shonen series, GONZO and IG shows get a lot of money most of the time. But they really are also the ones getting 90% of all the fans and money in the Anime industry right now.

----

To Magus:

Eh...I've just been watching Anime for too long and know what I'm missing. And besides the obviously stupid edits, if a show isn't fit to be aired on TV, then they shouldn't show it. Or show it at a different time. Japan does this. They show Anime series not suitable for 12 year olds at night. They showed Cowboy Bebop at 1 in the morning. I'd rather have that and be able to see the whole thing than be able to watch it at 8 PM with a quarter of the material edited for whatever little thing is wrong with TV standards.

But the main reason I say this is, once you allow a company to edit something, they do what they 'have' to. Then they look it over and go "you know...we don't HAVE to, but I think we should change this. And you know, this too. And why not this. And I never liked this scene so let's alter it a little. And hey how about..."

See.

But ultimately, I don't think anything should be edited. And as people who know me here will know, that means also the original language and all that.

[Magus]

Yeah, I'd prefer for them not to edit anything too. I don't think Adult Swim needs to edit at all, even swearing (why IS swearing considered worse than violence? So crazy), because it's on in the middle of the night. Comedy Central started showing non-edited versions of movies at one in the morning, it seems entirely plausible for Adult Swim to do so.

It probably simply comes down to adult shows being catered towards kids because adults aren't into "cartoons", and so for them to be successful here they edit them. The trend SHOULD disappear, since Adult Swim is so popular. Hopefully.

[Lord of Joshelplex]

I can only feel comfortable if they remove stuff absolutely impossible to show on TV (fully visible sex scenes) but since satuff like that is rarely shown on TV anyhow it wouldnt be tehre in the first place. I also like how they made Naruto appeal to young children when it is actaully aimes at older teens (at least the manga) anime censoring is horrible, especially in the oeverly religiously sensitive US. Who gives a crap if they show someone crucified, it's not that big a deal. Also, fifthfiend, I wasn't saying Saiyuki was art, I was just sayin its a good show, fun to watch, not particularliy perfect, but enjoyable, and that is all I need something to be enjoyable. You want art, watch Bebop or 08th MS Team.

[Fifthfiend]

And on that note, thread closed.