eBay banning Death Metal.

[dposse]

http://roadrun.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=58406

Paula Hogan of MANIC Music & Distribution and Candlelight Records USA has contacted BLABBERMOUTH.NET to report that "eBay is [allegedly] currently starting a ban on black/extreme metal. A few of our vendors who have sizeable eBay stores are now finding their items pulled down by eBay directly. The list we have compiled so far that have been pulled for sale via any eBay stores or auctions is noted below. I'm sure there are more."

Added Dan Ferguson of Indianapolis, IN's Abyss Records: "I had a number of items removed and account suspended by selling black metal. It seems a group of so-called Christians have been reporting black metal bands (even though eBay has black metal as a search genre) as all racist and hateful and discriminatory."

The items that were allegedly removed by eBay because they "violated the eBay Hateful or Discriminatory policy" are as follows:

BURZUM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burzum) - Complete 6 LP SET

EMPEROR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_%28band%29) - IX Equilibrium ORIG. LP

WOTANORDEN - From The.. CD

BURZUM - s/t / Aske DOUBLE LP

1349 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1349_%28band%29) - Beyond The CD

DARKTHRONE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkthrone) - Panzerfaust CD

MAYHEM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayhem_%28band%29) - Collection 4 LP SET

PANTHEON - Krihapentswor CD

DARKTHRONE - Total Death CD

BURZUM - Draugen CD DVD

BURZUM - Daudi Baldrs LP

BURZUM - Daudi Baldrs CD

ZYKLON B - Blood Must Be Shed CD

ARMAGGEDON (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon_%28band%29) - Imperium CD

EMPEROR - Demo LP

1349 - Hellfire DOUBLE LP

DARKTHRONE - Hate Them CD

BURZUM - Filosofem DOUBLE LP

BURZUM - Hlidskjalf LP

BURZUM - Det Som Engang Var DIGI CD

CAMULOS / AINSHVAL - Split CD

BURZUM - Hvis Lyset Tar Oss LP

BURZUM - Det Som Engang Var LP

NOKTURNAL MORTUM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokturnal_Mortum) - Weltanschauung CD

SATYRICON (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyricon_%28band%29) - Now, Diabolical CD

In eBay's e-mail to Ferguson explaining their decision to remove his listing, they write, "eBay doesn't permit sellers to list items that promote or glorify hatred, violence, or racial intolerance. Items that promote organizations with such views are also prohibited.

"eBay will judiciously disallow listings or items that promote or glorify hatred, violence or racial intolerance, or items that promote organizations (such as Nazis, neo-Nazis and Aryan Nation) with such views. This policy also applies to listings that offer shipping to countries where certain items may be illegal."


I understand the eBay has this thing against racist stuff, but metal is metal. Why don't they censor just about everything in Rap since it says the N word every five seconds? How far does eBays policy go?

[Chipper173]

Wow.

That's pretty effing metal.

All those bands need to get together, and make an album about sticking it to eBay.

But yeah, totally hypocritical.

[katsielyonz]

That's horrible. Don't get me wrong, it's horrible that people have prejudiced views, but I think it's their views to have. And censoring material like that is just crazy, I don't care what it is, it could be 10 ways to conjure Satan or some weird craziness, but censoring what people can and can't sell as well as what people can and can't buy based on politically correct bs is bs. It's so gray as to where the line is, to who can say what and why, and for anybody to say 'here is the line' is nuts.

However, on the flip side of that, privately owned businesses are able to run their show however they want. Weird eh? That private business get the right to express whatever views they want while censuring whatever views they want? I'm on the fence on this one. I'd like to think that if I'm running a business, I'd be able to be in control of what was going on. But ebay is in the business of allowing business, it seems like the same rights they get they should be able to allow to their clients...

Censuring metal is just the expansion of their own neo nazi thinking. >:

And yes, I'm very vocal.

[Skyshot]

Really, it's their loss for them as a business. They could refuse to sell anything made of metal because they felt like it; it just wouldn't be very bright. Besides, I imagine there are plenty of other avenues for people to sell these things.

Censuring metal is just the expansion of their own neo nazi thinking. >:Forgive me if I missed something, but aren't the Neo Nazis extremely racist? And aren't they censoring these because of (insert opinionated relative quantitative adjective here) racist content?

Anyways, I'm not familiar with anything on that list. How many of those actually contain racist content and how many are lumped in because of guilt by association?

[Meister]

Some of those do seem to be closely associated with National Socialist Black Metal. Nokturnal Mortum, according to the Wikipedia article, and, from what I know myself, Burzum are anything but beyond suspicion. And if you call your band Wotanorden* or Zyklon B* you've got to be prepared. Of course, you got to keep in mind that provocation is a huge part of this scene. Finally, putting Mayhem on that list is ridiculous, since they've never been associated with racism to my knowledge.

As for the overall situation, eBay is, as katsielyonz said, a privately owned business, and if it was mine, I'd probably disallow selling Nazi propaganda (for lack of a better general term) too, but you better be sure I'd take the time to thoroughly check what doesn and doesn't fall under that heading. It doesn't look like eBay is doing this, and I'm sure some perfectly acceptable bands will be or have already been included.

*"Order of Wotan;" Wotan is the germanic version of Odin and is often held in high regards in neo-nazi circles, but also with pagans.
*That would be the gas the Nazis used to mass-murder Jews in concentration camps.

[katsielyonz]

My point with the 'it's their own neo-nazi thinking' is that that's how they think. They (as in any kind of nazi or prejudiced group) what to censure whatever group they're against. That's what ebay is doing. They're doing the same thing that most prejudiced groups want to do to others. When you allow for expression it should be either all or not at all. To limit some while not others is propoganda.

But once again I run into the private vs public, and I'm not entirely sure what I would do. I think with a company like ebay I'd probably allow the sale of all legal materials, however I would probably ask people to post warnings about the content, and make sure that the front I'm putting up for MY business would be wholesome, with the warning that content that is sold is under the jurisdiction of the clients not me. As soon as you begin to take responsibility for what people are selling you set yourself up for a lawsuit.

[Savage Thinking]

Well, I think that this is just a way for bands to challenge the First Amendment. This situation reminds me of the deal with Denmark and the picture of Muhammad, or with South Park and Comedy Central eith the same thing. Certain people just feel the need to question their authority and see how much freedom one has.

In some ways, some people see this as going to far. Sometimes, when people feel the need to do so, the only way might be to do something some people might seem to be "extreme". In this case, these bands just take their freedom of speech to question and eBay feels they've gone too far. Certain people might also see it as offensive. For example, how the Muslims felt with the picture of Muhammad in Denmark.

[Fifthfiend]

If I was ebay, I would ban death metal for being awful-sounding bullshit.

I saw a death-metal band in concert once, their last song was actually four minutes of the guitarist holding his guitar and mic up to the fucking amplifier and me clutching my hands over my ears to shut out the feedback-scream. My ears rang for a day and a half after that one.

Just thought I'd share.

[Mashirosen]

They (as in any kind of nazi or prejudiced group) what to censure whatever group they're against. That's what ebay is doing. They're doing the same thing that most prejudiced groups want to do to others. When you allow for expression it should be either all or not at all.
That's pretty amusing, considering where you're posting it.

[Nique]

If I was ebay, I would ban death metal for being awful-sounding bullshit.

I Lol'd. :)

I think eBay is probably striking a proper balence. I mean, if you get some kind of super-fundamentalist thinker from any belife-system at it's head making multiple decisions along those lines, then maybe eyebrows should be raised. As is, they seem to be alienating themselves from products they do not wish the eBay name to be associated with or promoted using the eBay service.

I'm fuzzy on the legality, but seeing as that most eBay buyers aren't out-of-their-ever-loving-mind-stark-raving-mad-racist-morons, I don't think eBay is going to suffer much from the loss.

[Solid Snake]

As a private business, eBay has the right to decide what it will and will not allow its users to buy and sell, and I can't fault them in the slightest for making this decision.

Free speech is protected by the government in the public arena. This is a private enterprise, however, so free speech laws don't exactly apply here. If eBay doesn't want to sell this crap, they're the ones who are actually losing money by choosing not to sell it, so I'm sure they rigorously evaluated each album before deciding they didn't want to make a profit from it, y'know?

I see no foul play here.

[Monkeybonk]

Imagine, for just a moment, a world without bands consisting of nothing but a bassist, drummer, and a guy who can't sing so he just yells and screams until his voice is raw.

I know about a million people who try to be drummers, play the bass guitar, and can't sing, so I guess if you totally got rid of angry Metal music, all the teenangsters would just be angry and write angry songs and scream angry words into a microphone.



No really, eBay banning Death Metal, this is seriously the best news I've heard all day. Get some god-damn taste and stop listening to that shit.

[ApathyMan]

Okay. First off, these are not Death Metal bands. They are Black Metal bands. :rolleyes:

But yes, while eBay does certainly have the right to do this, it doesn't mean I have to like the decision. It's not like I'm going to "fight it" or anything, since Burzum's music really did promote neo-nazi ideals, but still...

... still...

Also @Zutsujin:

MAIDEN!!!

[Captain Hat]

The majority of you who are in this thread bashing black metal and death metal need to grow up fast and find a clue. So you don't like black metal? That's great. I'm happy for you to not like black metal. But to typify death and black metal musicians as morons who can't play their instruments is so patently false as to be utterly ridiculous: Extreme heavy metal of all varieties is some of the most technically demanding music there is to play anywhere. Not only are a lot of the riffs very technically complicated (particularly in grindcore, death and black metal), they are also played at such a fast rate that even the slightest slip can mean an entire bar has been missed.

This may not tickle your fancy: And I can understand that. I'm not about to call you rude names or claim you have no taste because you don't like something that I do. I like to think I'm mature enough to rise above using musical preference to judge someone else's character. However, typifying such excellent musicians as the guys from Emperor or Nasum or any of a hundred other death/black/grind bands as being "rubbish" simply because you don't "get" their music is fundamentally childish.

In addition, I wouldn't attatch a great deal of significance politically to the use of Odin's name in that of a band: A lot of black metal bands like to utillise a lot of Norse mythology and symbollism in their music and artwork because it's a step back to Northern Europe's "pagan" roots rather than because of any association with a political movement, Nazi or otherwise. A good example is my friend Ian Finlay, who has recently started drumming for a Sunderland outfit called Woden's Throne.

Unfortunately, however, it is still true that a number of black metal musicians have espoused Nazi teachings, so to a certain extent this doesn't surprise me. On the other hand, while I lack familiarity with a great deal of the body of work represented (I like grindcore, me), Emperor's members are certainly not among them.* While it should be clear to anyone with any familiarity with their work that they are anything but Fascist, they all start to get tarred with the same brush once the idiot racist faction starts piping up. It must be said, however, that much as with skinhead punk and its early association with neo-nazis in the UK, this is a very small minority of those in the scene.

At the same time, it's eBay's site, and eBay can do pretty much whatever it likes with it. If that includes stopping people from selling some fantastic slices of black metal to each other, then that's just the way it is. It may be the wrong decision, we can debate that until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it is eBay's to make.

*It should be noted that this doesn't mean that Emperor's members have always been sane, non-discriminatory or even remotely nice people, but I don't think they put any racism onto their records.

[Nique]

The majority of you who are in this thread bashing black metal and death metal need to grow up fast and find a clue.

There's a little tiny bit of oversensitivity here. I mean, if we want to start a real argument about musical skill and technical details, then all modern music falls on it's ass when put up against the intricate concertos of classical music.

If some in this thread have taken the 'name-calling' too far and not in jest, I won't defend that. But come on. I think, as a forum community centered around a webcomic, and a sprite webcomic at that, I think we can all afford to have a sense of humour about of tastes in entertainment.

I could rattle off the names of some bands that I listen too, just to be barraged with insulting titles like 'emo' or 'hipster', and I would think it's hella funny.

On topic, there is this question; is ebay placing ALL bands under this genre under ban, or are they defining a sub-genre of 'racists-bullshit-black-metal'?

[Captain Hat]

There's a little tiny bit of oversensitivity here. I mean, if we want to start a real argument about musical skill and technical details, then all modern music falls on it's ass when put up against the intricate concertos of classical music.Technically not true, since most classical music is composed with an entire orchestra in mind, whereas if you listen to a Tool album or even some Steve Vai songs (or, dare I say it, an Emperor or Opeth CD) you can hear them play very complex musical structures on only one or two instruments: Tool's polyrhythmic songs are a very good example of this, as they are structured so that the multiple rhythmic structures of the music fade in and out of resonance with each other, all reaching resonance ath the same time in the choruses. Not only is this kind of music very, very hard to write and orchestrate (no matter how many instruments you're writing for), but the guys playing the music have to keep in perfect time with only themselves as reference- and to top it all off, a single musician may be playing in several time signatures at once, depending on the song in question. At least a classical musician has the rest of his section to keep him in time.

Emperor's later work, particularly "Prometheus: The Discipline Of Fire And Demise" clearly displays a lot of influence from classical music by the likes of Wagner, also.

In addition, some modern guitarists can play the parts of several classical pieces at once on a single instrument. I would certainly not claim that they were inferior musicians.

I do take your point in terms of hostility, though I do have a virulent dislike of unjustified criticism. I see it as a sign of immaturity, and I apologise for the phrasing of that comment: I did not mean to offend the persons of those involved, but rather to counter their arguments.
On topic, there is this question; is ebay placing ALL bands under this genre under ban, or are they defining a sub-genre of 'racists-bullshit-black-metal'?They haven't banned ALL black metal as far as I can tell (there are a number of important bands not on that list) though several of the bands they have banned have not produced racist material. There was some controversy about a comment a member of Darkthrone made about Jews a while back, but they deny being racist vehemently and for the most part nothing suggestive of racism appears on their records: Also, a member of Emperor once killed a homosexual man for propositioning him, but he wasn't one of the main writers and I don't think any of that sort of content made it onto their records. I never said they were particularly nice people. A lot of black metal bads like to publically espouse Satanism and so on, which I find to be a rather juvenile response to overly-structured Norwegian society and disaprove of to a certain extent, though not so much that I would see them banned.

[Fifthfiend]

The majority of you who are in this thread bashing black metal and death metal need to grow up fast and find a clue.


I do take your point in terms of hostility, though I do have a virulent dislike of unjustified criticism. I see it as a sign of immaturity, and I apologise for the phrasing of that comment: I did not mean to offend the persons of those involved, but rather to counter their arguments.

You know what I see as a sign of immaturity, is loud proclamations of other people's immaturity, based on their insufficient appreciation of the mighty malevolent metals of the Heavy Black Death Wotans of rawk!

I'm sure it's incredibly intricate, technically demanding songcraft, that doesn't make listening to it any less like getting fucked in the ear.

You're certainly welcome to like whatever you like, and you're even encouraged to make your argument for its merits, but the next time you presume to proclaim anybody's personal inadequacy based on their inability to live up to your dictates on the range of permissible opinions, you can and will be removed from this forum.

As for your complaint about the 'majority' of people, I don't even know where that comes from - it was a minority of people in the thread even saing what awful sounding bullshit was the Black Death Ghost Nazi Scare Metal of Doom, and of those, I think like what, one person said it was due to anybody's lack of technical capability.

The next time you disagree with Monkey Bonk? Then just, you know, disagree with Monkey Bonk. Instead of announcing that every poster in this thread fails as a human being, because you disagree with Monkey Bonk.

[Captain Hat]

To be fair, I wasn't referring to your comment: You pretty much just said you didn't like it, which is fair enough. I was referring more to those who were inferring that the musicians in question were rubbish.

At the same time, I was pretty sure it wasn't just the one guy. I'm probably wrong, but I thought it was two out of three.

[EDIT]Yeah, I was wong. Bah. Teach me to only read a thread once. I have the short-term memory of a goldfish. At the same time, I don't think that just thinking something sounds bad is a reason to ban it. If I thought that, I'd advocate the banning of... well, a lot of stuff. Like maybe preventing that guy from Coldplay from ever opening his mouth ever again.

On second thoughts, that's not actually a terrible idea.

Err... Carry on. :D

[Fifthfiend]

I'd advocate the banning of... well, a lot of stuff. Like maybe preventing that guy from Coldplay from ever opening his mouth ever again.

On second thoughts, that's not actually a terrible idea.

I believe we have an accord.:D

[Mike McC]

Technically not true, since most classical music is composed with an entire orchestra in mind, whereas if you listen to a Tool album or even some Steve Vai songs (or, dare I say it, an Emperor or Opeth CD) you can hear them play very complex musical structures on only one or two instruments.... At least a classical musician has the rest of his section to keep him in time.Um, I would say the vast majority of classical music was written for small ensembles, the type that can fit into a room for a party. And I would like to see some of the bands reach the sheer complexity that is reached by Romantic era pianists and musicians. There is your complexity.

And I always find it funny when people get all up in an uproar over what a private buisness does, when they have the right to not sell these things. They aren't forced to sell absolutely everything by the First Amendment. In fact, the First Amendment sort of protects thier right to choose for themselves what and what not to sell.

[Captain Hat]

Um, I would say the vast majority of classical music was written for small ensembles, the type that can fit into a room for a party. And I would like to see some of the bands reach the sheer complexity that is reached by Romantic era pianists and musicians. There is your complexity.
Even so, the margins between the best ensmbles and the best modern music are so narrow as to defy comparison, especially when the difference in style is taken into accout.

Honestly, a lot of people have an inflated opinion of classical music. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it- You can't go wrong with a bit of Barber or Handel- but there was just as much dross then as there is now. The difference is, we've had a hundred years and more to weed out the dross, so that only the classical music which was actually any good has lasted. In a century's time, songs like "Aenima" and "Vicarious" will be remembered as classics: Songs like "Last Resort" and "Rollin'," on the other hand, are unlikely to be remembered at all.

And yeah, while we can argue for as long as we like about the rights and wrongs of the situation, at the end of the day eBay is free to disallow the sale on its site of whatever items it wants to. Whether that means black metal albums or toy rabbits, they don't legally need to justify their decisions to anyone.

[EDIT]And fifthfeind- Glad to hear it. I don't wish to sidetrack this thread any further, so shall we let this be the end of the discussion?

[Subdivisons]

What the fuck? This is outrageous! Retarded. Surely, most of it (burzum especially) is racially fueled hatred music, but it's just music...I love Burzum and still don't hate jews. There are alot of more terrible things out there that could to fought against, and some dumbass christian fucks need to keep their mouths shut.

There, this is the only post I'll ever make.

[Jimmy_Jazz]

Well I listen to a *little* bit of black metal and as far as i can tell banning stuff like Burzum (the guy behind that band was convicted for murder and burning down christian churches) and Zyklon B (taking their name from the chemical that was used to gas Jewish persons in WWII concentration camps) is pretty well justified. Even being a modest fan of black metal I refuse to listen to such music on account of their views and hence would support Ebay's decision to ban thier sale. I think there's a big difference between the general misanthropy expressed by a large quantity of death and black metal bands and those who express genuine hatered towards minority groups.

But the real question is how do they know where to draw the line? For example: they've banned Satyricon's latest album there, which I personally did not find to be particularly offensive, while I'm sure there's pleanty of more offensive stuff still being sold that they dont know about. I think unless they can establish strict guidelines on what is and isn't allowed, and police these guidelines, then they shouldn't go banning stuff at all.

[Baily]

Captain Hat : When you focus too much on the technicality of music and less on the aesthetic parts of songwriting, it's kinda sad. Someone can play the shit out of a guitar, but that doesn't mean they're ARTISTS. What makes something artistic is the symbolism and the interpretations open to the listener and the intended interpretations by the artist. When I hear heavy bands in general all I hear is cacophone and someone distoring their own voice so much you can't understand a word they say.

Look at the Pixies. They play music that actually requires you to take the music and analyze it and actually THINK. There's no crypticism any more everyone usually shoves the meaning of their music down your throat. there is no thought, just heart on the sleeve, "Listen to what I have to say!" bullcrap.

Sidetrack over. Sorry, I stepped in a little late and figured I'd get my opinion in. Now, about eBay...

Want to know something really special about deat/black metal or whatever? You can go to almost any music store, actually interact with a human being and order what music you want. What a concept, right?

[notasfatasmike]

I'm not really a big fan of Black Metal, but I know that the dudes from Mayhem weren't/aren't racists. Sure, they were extreme nihilists. Yes, they took pictures of their bass player's suicide and put them in the album art for their next album. But they certainly weren't racists.

Sarcasm aside, this is really pretty lame. Unless the bands have proven and established ties to the Nazi Black Metal movement, their records shouldn't be banned.

[Monstructor]

http://roadrun.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=58406



I understand the eBay has this thing against racist stuff, but metal is metal. Why don't they censor just about everything in Rap since it says the N word every five seconds? How far does eBays policy go?


It would be racist to ban rap, because it's black music. And the numero uno law of political correctness is that men, white people, Christians and white males are always expendable when put up against women, minorities, minority religions and anyone who's not a straight white male. So, surprise surprise, they ban the rock but not the rap.

[Roy_D_Mylote]

There uh, aren't a lot of Christian metal bands. I mean, there are a few, yeah, like that one my dad played in (yeah, it's embarrasing) and that one my friend was in for like a week.

I don't think it's a race thing.

[Lockeownzj00]

Monstructor: your posts don't even dignify reputations, so instead I offer you this--

Oops, you're racist! In denial, at that. From here on out, I will mentally replace all the words of your posts with the sound of a cow chewing grass--or perhaps the phonetic representation of that. The process will look something like this:

Man, white people sure get the shaft!

becomes

munch, munch munch munch, munch munch munch.

[Captain Hat]

Captain Hat : When you focus too much on the technicality of music and less on the aesthetic parts of songwriting, it's kinda sad. Someone can play the shit out of a guitar, but that doesn't mean they're ARTISTS. What makes something artistic is the symbolism and the interpretations open to the listener and the intended interpretations by the artist. When I hear heavy bands in general all I hear is cacophone and someone distoring their own voice so much you can't understand a word they say.Just so I've got this straight, are you trying to suggest that black metal doesn't have an aesthetic?

Because, for the record, if you are, that's almost insultingly retarded. Just because you don't like what they're selling doesn't mean they aren't selling anything. Which has been my point all along- You may not like black metal, you may hate death metal, and you may despise grindcore with every fibre of your being. That's completely fine: liking it or not is a matter of personal taste, something I have no interest in arguing about. If you don't get it, then you just don't get it. That's fine.

BUT, claiming that it has no aesthetic, that it has no artistic merit, is quantifiably false. And there are plent of people out there who do get it, and I'd like to think that I'm one of them.

Black metal done right has one of the most well-defined aesthetics of any type of music out there- It's bleak, epic and dark, like a Norse pagan tragedy. Much as Rob Zombie's sludgy, grinding riffs and lyrics evoke the musical equivalent of classic schlock horror films, a lot of modern grindcore (notably Pig Destroyer) evokes the very essence of modern horror films like Saw. Death metal is all about anger and, to a certain extent, hatred, which is why I don't generally like death as much as other genres. It's very emotionally raw, though, as well as blisteringly heavy. Modern thrash is also about anger, though often in a more constructive sense- look at the lyrics to Killswitch Engage's Rise Inside, for example, and tell me they aren't great lyrics without lying. It's about dissatisfaction with the state of the world and a desire for it to change for the better.
Look at the Pixies. They play music that actually requires you to take the music and analyze it and actually THINK. There's no crypticism any more everyone usually shoves the meaning of their music down your throat. there is no thought, just heart on the sleeve, "Listen to what I have to say!" bullcrap.Quite apart from the fact that the second half of this paragraph is completely untrue, the first half isn't even relevant. Sure, if a grindcore band was dealing with a realistic, complicated relationship or something with their songs, then the psychotic killer sound would be almost completely inappropriate, but the fact is they're dealing with raw anger, hatred and aggression. There's no way you can say that they don't portray their subject matter well- and anger itself is typically very direct in exactly the same way, so why should music about it be any different? Like I said, just because you don't like what's on offer doesn't mean nothing's being sold.

As for the Pixies... They don't really require anything. Sure, if you want to figure what a lot of their songs are actually about you have to think about them, but the songs are entertaining enough just in the way they sound that you don't have to think about them to derive entertainment from them. I'm not saying that's a bad thing- the Pixies are a fantastic band- but at the same time there are bands which do far far better at making you think. Give pretty much any Tool song, ever, a listen- Vicarious, Schism, Parabol/Parabola, Aenima, Jerk-Off, Hush, Sober, Stinkfist. They combine incredible musical complexity with some of the most challenging and thought-provoking lyrics in the business, all the while sounding more completely awesome than pretty much anyone else, ever.

Want to know something really special about deat/black metal or whatever? You can go to almost any music store, actually interact with a human being and order what music you want. What a concept, right?
Well, sure, but that's not the point: The point is that this removes a way in which the records could be obtained. In some cases it's justified according to eBay's stated rules, which is fair enough- though I'd like to see if they have also banned Nazi memorabilia and copies of Mein Kampf from eBay. In other cases, though, it's simply a question of overreaction, banning other stuff which looks similar without really looking into it.

While I'm not about to start wailing and howling about the death of free speech based on the removal of a couple of eBay auctions, it is the kind of ignorance that accuses these bands of having no artistic merit, or no genuine reason for existing, or just of being "too crap to exist" or whatever that is in my view the most insidious way of creeping in limitations on that freedom.

So be educated- You might not like black metal, and that's absolutely fine. I'm not going to call you a phillistine because fast drumbeats, tortured guitars and screaming vocals aren't your cup of tea. But don't ever try to claim that it has no artistic merit, or that the musicians aren't anything other than excellent musicians, because those things are quantifiably untrue.

[Meister]

Now, let's not go into the "it's retarded if you think thisandthat" argumentations, okay?

By the way, wasn't there or isn't there even a Christian black metal band? I know there's quite a number of Christian metal bands, but how is it with the more extreme variations of the genre?

[Captain Hat]

I never said he was retarded. It is quite possible to make a dumb argument without being stupid yourself.

The point was worded to criticise the argument, not the debator. I apologise if this was not immediately clear.

And yes, there have been Christian black and death metal bands, as well as at least one Christian grindcore outfit that I've heard of: hells, one of the guitarists in Deicide is a Catholic.

[Furioku]

What the crap. This is bullshit I think and pisses me off that eBay would be willing to pull these thigns off just because a bunch of christians got there panties up in a bunch. Death Metal isn't racist at all. You can go through those bands lyrics and find that none of them are really that racist. Espcially Satyricon who I happen to be a fan of, being the Metalhead I am. Sure some of them may be a little on the satanic side but that still isn't racist and even with that eBay has no right to pull there items just because of this. The world needs more of an open mind to other ideas, beliefs and cultures. :/

[Ryanderman]

By the way, wasn't there or isn't there even a Christian black metal band? I know there's quite a number of Christian metal bands, but how is it with the more extreme variations of the genre?
There are a number of Christian black metal bands. At least, they consider themselves black metal, or grindcore, or death metal. I don't know how they stack up against secular metal bands though, since I'm not really a fan of the extreme heavy end of the genre. But I was at a Christian music festival this summer, Cornerstone festival, and there were literally dozens of bands there that consider themselves extremey heavy metal.

[OctoberRaven]

Well, I guess if we want good music we'll have to keep off eBay then.

Because black metal is only the beginning. Next it'll be death metal, then power metal (fantasy overtones!!! the christian right will not approve!!!), then all the other subgenres of metal until the closest we have even RESEMBLING metal is Slipknot.

But hey, private buisness, so they can do that.

Luckily eBay is not the only place music can be purchased, so it's not really a big deal when you think about it.

Also, of course there are christian extreme metal bands. Haven't you ever watched Morel Orel? BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN IN HEAVEN!!

[Akamaz]

here's a site listing for one of the christian
Thrash Metal/death Metal bands, Vengeance Rising... Christians didn't like them either

Vengeance (Rising) were one of the heaviest bands to exist in the 80's. The big difference between Vengeance and bands like Dark Angel or Slayer was the lyrics, which screamed a message of Christianity. The disc took a lot of criticism from both Christians and non-Christians alike because people were saying that a message of Christianity couldn't be mixed with such extreme music. Regardless of the message, the sheer intensity, aggression and speed of "Human Sacrifice" quickly put Vengeance to the top of my favorites list. The recording itself is a bit sloppy, but no one cared about seamless recordings in the early days of thrash metal. For a no-budget recording, this CD just smokes and remains one of my absolute favorite albums decades later.


http://www.nolifetilmetal.com/vengeance.htm

[notasfatasmike]

I'm not so familiar with metal, as i stated in my earlier posts, but I do know of a band called Living Sacrifice who play pretty extreme metal with obvious Christian overtones. ZAO actually might fit into the doom metal genre by some people's mindsets: they always get called a hardcore band, but all of their songs are ridiculously slow for that genre. I do know that there are tons of Christian hardcore and metalcore bands, many of which are very good. Metalcore bands would include Norma Jean, As I Lay Dying, The Chariot, and to a lesser extent, UnderOATH (if you ignore the album They're Only Chasing Safety, they more or less qualify).

[Vicious]

Ebay sucks.

[Akamaz]

so wait, I can get 67 hits for a band that has music that is illegal to sell in the state of florida, but no death metal allowed?

[Dead Phoenix]

http://roadrun.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=58406



I understand the eBay has this thing against racist stuff, but metal is metal. Why don't they censor just about everything in Rap since it says the N word every five seconds? How far does eBays policy go?
There are many people who despise Death Metal. The reason is because Death Metal says words that are "blasphemous" to God, and Christians believe that Death Metal and any of their types are the music of the Devil.

Even though I am Christian, I like to listen to Death metal sometimes, but I prefer Power Metal and classical over Death if I have to say so because my parents really hate any kind of Satanic Metal. I managed to approve Power Metal to them, but they won't be conviced to Death metal music. Maldicion...

[Akamaz]

look up Vengeance Rising, they're pretty good if you can find their stuff.

[Dead Phoenix]

look up Vengeance Rising, they're pretty good if you can find their stuff.
I'm going to download some of their songs later, maybe when I get back from school.

I usually like to listen to Dragonforce, Nightwish, Gamma Ray and Killswitch Engage, but if it's that great, that band is going to be added to my list.

[Lost in Time]

Most Death Metal bands I listen don't really bash religion like they are trying to say. But one band is pretty bad: Anal Cunt. They have sick titles like: You Were Too Ugly To Rape... So I Just Beat The Shit Out Of You, or I Drop Kicked a Pregnant Woman In the Stomach. That's just sick and extremely sexist I believe.

[Captain Hat]

Of course. A lot of death metal bands (usually, it has to be said, not the best ones though) use very offensive song titles deliberately in order to be provocative nd try to generate publicity for themselves. They aren't as good at it as Marilyn manson or Alice Cooper, though, in the main.

In fact, a lot of rock bands use violent-sounding or very weird song titles, like the grindcore outfit Narcosis, or the punk groups McLusky and the kind-of-punk-or-indie-I'm-not-really-sure-which Martini Henry Rifles. Narcosis song titles include "Just Because They Say Christ When You Walk In The Room Doesn't Make You Jesus" and "The World Is Your Oyster And I Am The Hammer", while the Martini Henry Rifles wrote "Gippo Kids Ate My Hamster and "Run Jimmy Run Run Run, You Fucker." McLusky are more or less King of Bizarre Song Titles as far as bands that actually write individual songs go, with titles including "The Difference Between You And Me Is That I'm Not On Fire," "Dave, Stop Killing Prostitutes" and the seminal "Lightsaber Cocksucking Blues." If you want really mweid song titles, though, you have to be prepared to gat a little prog, and venture into the realm of metal operas and even black metal storytelling. Ayreon have one or two good examples, but some of the best I've come across have been those of Bal-Sagoth.

Bal-Sagoth are just like any other roughly average black metal band (they're not particularly brilliant musically) except that where another black metal band would have a singer screaming all the time, Bal-Sagoth have a narrator, who basically tells stories over the music. Since each of their songs is in fact a story about some mythical past of the planet Earth and the Hyperborean Empire, their song titles are essentially the names of some exceptionally daft fantasy short stories.

For example, on the album "Atlantis Ascendant," there are "The Epsilon Excorium," "Draconis Albionensis" (a reference to a Dragon of Albion), "Star Maps of the Ancient Cosmographers," "The Dreamer In The Catacombs Of Ur," "In Search Of The Lost Cities Of Antarctica," "Six Keys To The Onyx Pyramid" and the jaw-droppingly fantastic title "The Splendour Of A Thousand Swords Gleaming Beneath The Blazon Of The Hyperborean Empire (Part III)"

As a result, Bal-Sagoth are actually immense fun to listen to and I would thoroughly recommend you pick up an album if you like your metal black and actually posess a sense of humour..

[notasfatasmike]

Anal Cunt's entire schtick has always been their extremely nasty song titles. I don't listen to them, not because I find them offensive, because I think they're a terrible band.

And now, I have to find something by Bal-Sagoth somewhere. That sounds freakin' AWESOME.

[Lost in Time]

I wouldn't call Bal-Sagoth satanist at all, so they defiantly can't call all black metal that. They're lyrics it looks like, are mostly fantasy based, like Power Metal is.

I don't know what you would call Ayreon, probably just prog metal, but they have alot of those fantasy based songs. And what's neat about them, is that every album is linked together in one big story. And they have those long titles as well, but none of them offensive.

[ApathyMan]

Most Death Metal bands I listen don't really bash religion like they are trying to say. But one band is pretty bad: Anal Cunt. They have sick titles like: You Were Too Ugly To Rape... So I Just Beat The Shit Out Of You, or I Drop Kicked a Pregnant Woman In the Stomach. That's just sick and extremely sexist I believe.
You are aware that they are a comedy metal band, yes? It's all tongue-in-cheek.

... why do you think they made the album Picnic of Love (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picnic_of_Love)?

[Captain Hat]

Anal Cunt's entire schtick has always been their extremely nasty song titles. I don't listen to them, not because I find them offensive, because I think they're a terrible band.

And now, I have to find something by Bal-Sagoth somewhere. That sounds freakin' AWESOME.Dude, e-mail me or something if you want to hear a couple of tracks.