Thud!

[Massacre]

By which, I refer to the book of the same name written by Terry Pratchett, the man behind Discworld novels. For those of you who know Discworld and read it faithfully, kudos. To those who don't, you might like reading it. You never know.

I am here because of a particular instance within Thud! where (and this is not a spoiler since I give away nothing to do with the plot) we meet a man by the name of Andy "Two Swords" Hancock, known for dual-wielding a couple of scimitars AND, get this, carrying the Discworld-equivalent of nunchucks!

You know what this means, of course. We are just two steps away from seeing Sword-Chucks in a Discworld novel! AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

[Satan's Onion]

Discworld sword-chucks? Oh, gods preserve us.

I rather liked Thud!, myself, but then, I'm a fan of the Sam Vimes character generally (one of my favorite books, liek, evarz: Night Watch. It's good for your soul, even if you don't believe you have one.) Altho'--I hate to say it, but I can't help but think that some of the bits near the end (like when he goes all ragey and rampagey in Koom Valley) came off as a teeny tiny bit "Vimes-as-Goku". Altho' I guess that could've been the nasty darkness thingy that was inhabiting him at the time, but still...

I also loved Vimes' near-Death experience/Death's near-Vimes experience. Came at just the perfect time, and I still laugh to think of it--reminding you that this is, after all, a comedy, not a thriller.

[Muffin Mage]

I like the Vimes books as examples of serious world and character development. They're awesome for that. But for the love of all things holy, that's not what Discworld is for. I personally think Rincewind epitomizes the spirit of Discworld, and there should be more of him.

[Massacre]

Rincewind has become less of a central figure in things. All the big things about him are, possibly, exhausted, and now he can live in quiet dread that someday, his fellow wizards will need him for something awful. Until then, gulp a banana and ride that scythe 'till doomsday!

Also, there is no way that Vimes could ever EVER gain super powers. Who watches the watchmen? He does! And who watches the watcher of the watchmen? HE DOES! All things are completely, if in denial, explained away! Nothing mystic here! Nope! And an "Ook, ook!" to you too!

[Satan's Onion]

Also, there is no way that Vimes could ever EVER gain super powers. Who watches the watchmen? He does! And who watches the watcher of the watchmen? HE DOES! All things are completely, if in denial, explained away! Nothing mystic here! Nope! And an "Ook, ook!" to you too!

I wasn't really thinking of "super powers" in my explanation so much as I was thinking of his sheer unstoppability factor in the particular bit I was thinking of. It's hard for me to explain why this particular instance of kickassery felt different from all the other beatdowns Vimes has administered, but it just, somehow, well, did.

I feel I ought to point out that this really isn't a very big complaint for me, and if this is the worst blemish to be found on an otherwise wonderful character (as opposed to, say, Granny Weatherwax, who just doesn't impress me overmuch anymore), then I'm quite willing to let it slide. Because--and I don't think this can ever be over-emphasized--Vimes rocks.

[Fifthfiend]

"Vimes-as-Goku".

There is some shit you just don't say.

[Satan's Onion]

...May I beg your forgiveness here, or do I have to take my abject apologies to PMs?

'Cos I am sorry. So very sorry. Please don't beat me up.

edit: or if you do, just...not the face, please.

[Massacre]

And as for Vimes in that instance, it was because he had them all shit-scared and confused with loud recitations of "Where's My Cow?" while looking a dirty, stinky, bloody, hate-filled mess. It was the mind-set of the dwarfs too. It's like, "Ye Gods! It's some kind of freak from the Dungeon Dimensions come to swallow our souls!" At least, that's what they thought.

[Marble]

THUD! Was one of Pratchett's best in a while, I felt. I've yet to read a book by Pratchett - well, at least since the series really picking up by the fourth book or so - that I didn't enjoy, but I've had this feeling of the series losing a bit of its flare somewhere around the twenty-sixth book-ish.

THUD! definitely brought back the old lovin' feelin', though. The Watch novels seldom go wrong - possibly because the setting, if used a lot, simply offers a lot to tell - and I loved how Pratchett's dared to go sort of dark in the latest depictions of Vimes' life. The fact that this book built on The Fifth Elephant, my favourite Watch novel, made it even more likeable in my eyes.

[Fifthfiend]

...May I beg your forgiveness here, or do I have to take my abject apologies to PMs?

'Cos I am sorry. So very sorry. Please don't beat me up.

edit: or if you do, just...not the face, please.

Aw, and here I was all kind of looking forward to punching a girl in the face.

Anyway yeah, I really liked Thud. It's like any Pratchett book in that there is some stuff I don't like, but that stuff doesn't seem to keep me re-reading the book a half a dozen times, so clearly I can't dislike it that much. I'm not exactly sure what it was that was so great about this one, I think it just dug into the core of Ankh-Morpork - figuratively and literally I guess - in a way that even the previous Watch books haven't. It really took a lot of the jokey glib characterizations of things, and turned up endless rich veins of story underneath. It was a real series-fan's book in that respect, I guess you could say.

[Massacre]

Always remember...


Mr. Shine.
Him Diamond.

[The Wandering God]

Want to see something really freaky?

Sam Vimes as depicted in "Where's My Cow?" the companion book to Thud! (Which is awesome in it's own way.) (http://webcontent.harpercollins.com/images/interior/bookseller_spreads/0060872675.interior01.jpg)

Pete Postlethwaite (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000592/)

Does anyone else think they look remarkably similar? I'd pick a better image from the book, but that's the only one I could find.

Oh and yes, can't forget the Pratchett view of racial predjudice and tolerance.

The Wandering God

[Ryanderman]

I think Pratchett has commented before that he imagines Vimes as looking similar to Postlethwaite, as oppsed to the Paul Kidby version that looks like Clint Eastwood.


I personally prefer the Kidby version (Roy's avatar), and a mixture of the two would about match my imagination, but this one isn't bad at all.

[Fifthfiend]

Oh yeah, so you know what I hated in this book? Was the girl vampire copper.

Just annoying as hell.

Actually aside from that, it was pretty much all gold.

[Roy_D_Mylote]

I like my avatar's version of the man better, too. Because he looks more weasly and Vimeslike.

[Trilli]

WEIRD AND SCARY. I had never heard of nor seen this Postlethwaite person before, but that is EXACTLY what I pictured Vimes to look like!

I just discovered the Discworld novels a little while ago, so I've only read the first four at present--but they had a preview chapter from Thud! in one of the books, and now I want to skip right to that one! Curse my obsessive-compulsiveness!

[Satan's Onion]

Then howzabout you just read the books with Vimes in, from the beginning? That's part of the beauty of the Discworld novels; you can jump in pretty much from any book in the series. (My first was Jingo, then Hogfather.) I think it starts with Guards! Guards!, but I'll have to consult the Wiki Oracle to refresh my memory about the Vimes arc's order...

eddytte: Ah. Here we are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld)--
Guards! Guards!
Men At Arms
Feet of Clay
Jingo
The Fifth Elephant
(possibly The Truth, but really Vimes is more a supporting character in this)
Night Watch (my favorite. Read it, for it is good for your soul. Even if you're an atheist.)
(again, maybe Monstrous Regiment, but it seems to me he's hardly in it at all save near the end)
Thud!

[Fifthfiend]

WEIRD AND SCARY. I had never heard of nor seen this Postlethwaite person before, but that is EXACTLY what I pictured Vimes to look like!

I just discovered the Discworld novels a little while ago, so I've only read the first four at present--but they had a preview chapter from Thud! in one of the books, and now I want to skip right to that one! Curse my obsessive-compulsiveness!

I've actually read most of the Discworld novels in a pretty much totally randomized and scatter-shot way, and as SO notes, it's an entirely valid and enjoyable way to go about digesting the series. It sort of gives the feeling of putting a puzzle together, as a collection of disparate and disjointed pieces gradually resolve themselves into a whole image. Except in this case the image is a fantastical little world spread across several thousand pages of novels.

Also I would note that The Truth and Monstrous Regiment, while they do only really feature Vimes in a supporting capacity, are among the best of the series in their own right, and go a long way towards establishing Pratchett's evolving conception of the Discworld and those who inhabit it (I'd also include Going Postal as one in that vein).

[Trilli]

Satan's Onion and fifthfiend: Thanks for the info! You both ROCK.
And it does seem tempting to skip around. It seems like that would be the literary equivalent of watching Pulp Fiction. ...with wizards. Or something.

Now I just have to see if my bookstore actually has any of those.

[Buddha Fett]

I just got around to picking this up from my local library, and I must say that's it's one of my new favourites in the series. Bravo, Mr. Prattchet.

[Ryanderman]

Satan's Onion and fifthfiend: Thanks for the info! You both ROCK.
And it does seem tempting to skip around. It seems like that would be the literary equivalent of watching Pulp Fiction. ...with wizards. Or something.

Now I just have to see if my bookstore actually has any of those.
If you're in America, most bookstore should have a complete or near complete set of the books. They're almost as popular hear now, as they are in the UK.

[Gordon]

Thud! is indeed a fine read, although my favourite Watch novel is either Feet of Clay or The Fifth Elephant, as Golems and Dwarves are a fascination of mine. Not restricted to the Disc, but I'm a fan of the way Mr. Pratchett portrays them.

Rather Spoilery If You Haven't Read The Watch Books in Full.
My question is what is there left for Vimes to do? He's stopped a potentially crippling and catastrophic war, stopped numerous attempts on the Patricians life, helped arrest a dragon, stopped another Koom Valley, and prevented a terrible Dwarven Civil War. It's like with Rincewind - He's been everywhere, and seen almost everything. What else is there for him to be scared of? No doubt Terry will come up with something, but short of him achieving his lifelong ambition of arresting the Creator for Doing It Wrong, I can't think of much.

I'll confess I enjoyed Going Postal more, though. Moist was an utter bastard, and it's refereshing to have someone so utterly immoral be the titular character, as most of Pratchetts other main characters are usually good, despite being cynical/practical. I think it's just that I've grown kind of bored with the Watch, as they seem to be the focus as of late, and with the Unseen University faculty having moved to the Science of Discworld books, and the Lancre Witches sort of showing up in the Tiffany Aching books, it opens the door for new characters.

So roll on next year, and with it Making Money.

[Fifthfiend]

Rather Spoilery If You Haven't Read The Watch Books in Full.
My question is what is there left for Vimes to do? He's stopped a potentially crippling and catastrophic war, stopped numerous attempts on the Patricians life, helped arrest a dragon, stopped another Koom Valley, and prevented a terrible Dwarven Civil War. It's like with Rincewind - He's been everywhere, and seen almost everything. What else is there for him to be scared of? No doubt Terry will come up with something, but short of him achieving his lifelong ambition of arresting the Creator for Doing It Wrong, I can't think of much.

Carrot will assert himself as king and Vimes will go to war with him for the soul of Ankh-Morpork.

I don't know exactly what would happen to precipitate that, but it's what Pratchett's been alluding to since Guards!, so I assume it has to happen eventually.

[Roy_D_Mylote]

And that would be kick-ass.

[Satan's Onion]

Kickass as it undoubtedly would be, doesn't Carrot like being a copper? I thought part of what made Carrot Carrot was that he wasn't really keen on the idea of ruling, but that being in the Watch and enforcing the laws was something he really enjoyed.

editte: or I suppose he's possibly a bit intimidated by just how easily he commands people. I mean, everyone does what he wants when he asks them to, even though they complain afterwards. That's the kind of power that arguably should be frightening to someone who stops to think about it for a moment, and he's not stupid by any measure.

[Gordon]

I doubt he'd become king. He was given the chance in Men At Arms, and turned it down. I think Vimes has had a serious effect on him, so some of Vimes' views on monarchy have gone over... So no, I can't see that really happening. However, if Vetinari stops being the Patrician, I could see Carrot stepping up to take the position.

[Fifthfiend]

Kickass as it undoubtedly would be, doesn't Carrot like being a copper? I thought part of what made Carrot Carrot was that he wasn't really keen on the idea of ruling, but that being in the Watch and enforcing the laws was something he really enjoyed.

Well yeah, which is why, so far, he hasn't asserted himself as king. But it has been hinted at enough (The intermittent bits about there being some greater part of Carrot's personality that he's concealing, Vimes one day having to stand in the way of Carrot's destiny, all that) that this will not always be the case.

I'm not saying it's carved in stone or nothin', just Pratchett's gone to a lot of bother to build that up, so I'd expect sooner or later he's planning to go ahead with it.

[Satan's Onion]

I do understand that, fifth--but what kind of event would change Carrot enough to make him want to rule, let alone take on Vimes, for whom he appears to have considerable respect (and from whom he's learned much about the practical aspects of human interaction)? It'd have to be awfully big, 'specially 'cos he knows Vimes is no pushover.

Of course, if Vimes really did retire again (after all, he does have to care for young Sam), Carrot's likeliest to replace Vimes as head of the Watch...do you think it could go to his head, that sort of thing? Almost frightening to think about, 'cos I really like both characters. (on the other hand, or other other hand considering the thread of my argument, I don't see Vimes readily retiring. He tried it once, and couldn't keep himself away from policing. Of course, this was before he became a father...)