Gettin' All Emo Up In Here!

[Tydeus]

I was wondering what exactly "love" means to the varied inhabitants of this forum. It's always interesting to me to hear how different folks define it.

Like, for instance, my friend Beverly, who cheats relentlessly on her boyfriend, yet insists that she is, in fact, in love with him. She's definitely a strange one, no doubt about it. And that's why I made this topic -- thinking of Beverly's "love" juxtaposed against some of my more romantic friends, I couldn't help but laugh, and shake my head in wonderment.

What a funny little world, eh?

[katsielyonz]

I'm scarred of the mighty mods coming down on this post, but I'll replay anyways. o.0. Don't hurt me...

You're feelings for someone doesn't always define your behavior. And sex and love can be two separate things.

[Ravenfic]

My definition of 'love' is to enjoy something. If I love something, it must be fun, entertaining, or something like that. Sex has nothing to with it.

Unless you get into loving people.

That's just too complicated, and I'm cold and heartless, so no comment on that part of the equation.

Now that I think of it, I guess I'm a selfish bastard.

Oh well.

[The SSB Intern]

My definition of 'love' is to enjoy something. If I love something, it must be fun, entertaining, or something like that. Sex has nothing to with it.

Well, obviously you wouldn't have sex with things you love. That would just be weird.

[Tydeus]

Well, obviously you wouldn't have sex with things you love. That would just be weird.

Don't bash it 'til you try it? :sweatdrop

[Ravenfic]

Maybe I should clarify:

I don't think sex really fits the definition of love at all. No wait.. er... nevermind.

Clever dodge there, Tydeus.

[dudemullet]

To be willing to do anything to make that other person happy, including your life.
-This also includes your epic gear-. :stressed:

[Sir Pinkleton]

If it was around midnight I'd give you a better answer, but here's my 2 cents.

Love, of a person anyhow, can be generalized as a grand desire to be with that someone, doing everything for that person, or perhaps just thinking about them constantly.

In the case of your friend Beverly, it depends on how her boyfriend feels. If he doesn't like it (and id telling her to not do it), then she's ignoring his feelings and therefore does not truly love him.

Also, any SNL fans? (http://ckjcwf.ytmnd.com/)

[xravi]

What is love? Baby Don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more.

[42PETUNIAS]

What is love? Don't hurt me!

Baby don't hurt me. Geez.

I think that love is the ultimate form of wanting to be with someone. Unfortunately, it gets cheapened by people not meaning it, not being able to define it, etc. and i think that that's why theres so many divorces and stuff nowadays. People use the word love when they don't mean it, and cause of that, they enter a relationship with false delusions, and eventually they drift apart.

[J-Watt]

Meh. I'd have to have been in love before I could properly define it, and that isn't going to happen any time soon.

I'm not being emo or anything when I say that. I just really don't want to bother with relationship crap right now. My life's busy enough as it is.

[Azisien]

Love is a complex meshwork of hormone interactions and cognitive adaptations that occur between individuals to increase the chance of generating offspring and keeping the mother and father together to fulfill the typical mammalian characteristic of long-term child care, which is very evident in humans. Other forms of love are of similar makeup, and promote healthy group cohesion and overall fitness for the individuals involved.

And now that we have the cold, hard fist of science crushing our hopes and dreams for eternity, love is that fuzzy warm feeling you get when you like, love someone! Oh wait, I can't use the word I'm defining in the definition...

[xravi]

{ Understand understand oh! }
| understand understand oh! |
{ understand understand the concept of love oh! }X2

What is love?
What is free love?
Love is free, free, free.

Ready to kick some ass!

[Fifthfiend]

Love is the flooding of the body's limbic system with phenylethylamine.

That's mostly it, really.

[Demetrius]

Can't explain all the feelings
That you're making me feel
My heart's in overdrive
And you're behind the steering wheel

I believe in a thing called love
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
There's a chance we could make it now
We'll be rocking 'til the sun goes down
I believe in a thing called love

I wanna kiss you
Every minute every hour every day
You got me in a spin
But everything is "A" O.K!

:P

[42PETUNIAS]

Love is crawling there, if you couldn't walk.
Love is chasing what you want, instead of settling for what you think you deserve.
Love is caring for someone more than you care for yourself.
Love is asking for help, despite pride, embarassment or fear.
Self doubt and confusion fade away, but love endures.

[Funka Genocide]

Love is a bushwhacking sonofabitch with a hefty two by four.

More precisely I think it's an understanding, an acceptance of all the terrible things in another person. The willingness to subject yourself to the unrelenting horror that is another human being.

Good times all around, of course.

[Nique]

...
Love is chasing what you want, instead of settling for what you think you deserve.

I hate this cliche. It seems a selfish thought.

I've made comment on this sort of thing before... the english word 'love' can mean a lot of things, which kind of limits it's comfortable usage. I belive greek uses four different words that translate into the modern english word 'love', which makes it a lot easier to convey the context of what you mean.

'Agape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape)' is a princepled love that extends to strangers and familers alike - essentially, it makes you do what is morally right, even at some cost to yourself.

'Philia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philia)' is a direct, personal love, between freinds.

'Storge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storge)' is family love, such as a parent would have for a child.

And finally, your favorite kind of love, 'Eros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros_%28love%29)' is romantic (or 'Erotic?) love. The kind that makes you buy flowers or flattering underwears for your signifigant other in hopes of further 'expressing' your 'love' in a more private setting.

[Mirai Gen]

And finally, your favorite kind of love, 'Eros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros_%28love%29)' is romantic (or 'Erotic?) love. The kind that makes you buy flowers or flattering underwears for your signifigant other in hopes of further 'expressing' your 'love' in a more private setting.
...in their pants.

I had to say that.

See, love is a completely inspecific term since it can talk about love of mankind, meaning a general approval or appreciation of a vague term. It can also mean a profound attatchment or enjoyment with the subject. Or married/intimate love, meaning you want to be with them for whatever indefinate term qualifies as "forever."

Sometimes you can have fun with inspecific articles like love, too. For example, I love Zelda. It's an vague term and a profound attatchment with a subject. And, theoretically (since it's a name), it's possible to have sex with Zelda.

Voila! All three articles!

[musicalmechanic]

Well, let's assume for a moment that your referring to the kind of love that would apply toward a relationship.

My 5 year anniversary is quickly approaching (only two of which are married, btw) and my opinion on the matter is pretty simple.

Love is the desire to make a person happy. Pure, plain, simple.

Caring for someone is not love. You can care for someone greatly and still not love them. Cause if you care, your concerned about how they are, what they do, and such. But if you love 'em, you just want to make them happy.

Granted, it helps if your love also happens to be a hot gamer. Damn, I'm lucky.

[Nique]

Granted, it helps if your love also happens to be a hot gamer. Damn, I'm lucky.

I reject the notion that romantic love is ever completely altrustic :) You have to see some value in the other person. I guess video games are a better foundation for marriage than, say, money?

Well, let's assume for a moment that your referring to the kind of love that would apply toward a relationship.

That unessecerily limits the love shown in a marriage/ monogamous relationship. In a marriage situation, your spouse becomes everything to you - they have earned your respect as a person (agape), they become your friend (philia), they quite literally enter into your family circle (storge), and you want to do the bedroom thing with them (eros).

Maybe we could invent a 5th catergory, for 'love of video games', although I think this should fall under agape, becuase everyone should love video games.

[scott wegener]

Like, for instance, my friend Beverly, who cheats relentlessly on her boyfriend, yet insists that she is, in fact, in love with him. She's definitely a strange one, no doubt about it.

I'm too old to take this terribly seriously. But yet here I am, because at the end of the day I am a romantic sucker.

Just to get Beverly out of the way; One word comes to mind, but the mods will shut this down if I use it. And Bev's b/f needs to grow a pair and move on. Cheating on someone repeatedly shows a complete lack of respect for the other person and a disregard for their feelings. Not what I'd call love.

In real life it is a RARE person indeed who can be in mulitple relationships or have multiple partners and still be classified as mentally healthy. 99% of the time they have suffered some sort of sexual trauma and this is how they cope with it. Its really kind of sad, though it also envokes anger because of the other people being hurt by it.

Back to Love though -I don't think you can define it. I love my cat, I love my wife, I love my daughter. I wouldn't step in front of a bus to save the cat, but definitly for the other two.

I think a decent general clause for defining love would be one's willingness to suffer for the thing they love. Suffering can be defined by anything from stepping in fromt of that bus, or going to the company christmas party that you dread because you know it will make the otehr person happy that you are there with them.

[Fifthfiend]

Just to get Beverly out of the way; One word comes to mind, but the mods will shut this down if I use it.

I can almost promise that is not the case.

[POS Industries]

Love means constantly having to say you're sorry.

[Muffin Mage]

I've got to say, overall, that love is your subconscious' way of telling you that you aren't screwing up, which is broad enough to cover all the bases you could possibly need.

[Krylo]

In real life it is a RARE person indeed who can be in mulitple relationships or have multiple partners and still be classified as mentally healthy. 99% of the time they have suffered some sort of sexual trauma and this is how they cope with it. Its really kind of sad, though it also envokes anger because of the other people being hurt by it.
Unless you're extremely stringent in your classifications for mentally healthy, this is simply not the case.

- About 60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an affair at some point in some marriage
"Monogamy Myth", Therapist Peggy Vaugn

And, honestly, she's one of the lower figures. On, "The Science of Sex" on TLC they gave figures of about 80% for men, and 70% for women.

Granted, the numbers that actually ADMIT to it on surveys rank closer to the 20% range, but, really, very few people are willing to admit to something like that, even on an anonymous survey. It'd be like asking a frat boy if he's ever experienced homosexual urges.

Having multiple partners is, actually, hard coded into our genetics from the very beginnings of humanity. It is rather society that inflicts upon us the belief that cheating is wrong.

Those who had multiple partners years and years ago were the ones who got their genes out. Therefore, from the first time a human man and woman got to bumping ugly, the genes that create the desire for sex with multiple people have been passed on more often and in greater numbers than those which do not. It's also believed that this is the very reason that humans ENJOY sex.

Though, I suppose the history/genetics lesson isn't nearly as important as the statistics showing that over half of everyone ever will commit adultery.

As for the actual subject: Figure it out for your own damn selves. It's more fun that way.

[BlackMageGirl!]

As for the actual subject: Figure it out for your own damn selves. It's more fun that way.
Rather, it's the only way you'll really LEARN what love is. 'cause for each person it's a different thing, some completely different alltogether. :B

[Dynamite220]

I shall now come out of the perverbial woodwork to make a few comments, and to those who remember me, no, there is no rhyme or reason to the timing here.

I don't personaly believe that I have experienced true love as of yet, of if I did, I didn't know what it was, so I don't pretend to understand it personally, but from my reading, I came across this deffinition, which is one of my favorites.

"Love is a state in which your own happiness is dependant on the safety and happiness of others." -R. A. Heinlein

That's acctualy part of what made me like him as an author.

[Nique]

Having multiple partners is, actually, hard coded into our genetics from the very beginnings of humanity. It is rather society that inflicts upon us the belief that cheating is wrong.

I kind of take issue with this sort of blanket statment. I can just as easily say that the moral degradation of society is what has cuased spouses to cheat on each other, can't I? Or, that the only thing actually hardcoded into our genes is the desire/need for sex. I don't know how you'd prove something further than that, considering how many attempts at monogamous relationships there are, even if they aren't always successful... and how painful it can be to the partner who has been cheated on? How is that biologically beneficial?

PLUS! There are so many other more likely reasons that people cheat on each other - a sizable portion of these reasons do not reflect healthy social interactions. Lack of communication, withholding sex from your partner as a means of punishment, abuse (physical or emotional). I mean, yeah, let's face it, people are kind of messed up. But just becuase something is the norm doesn't mean it's good or healthy, or even that it is 'hard-coded' into our genes.

Some animals mate for life... many humans do that too. Yes, Humans kind of cover the board when it comes to types of romantic relationships, but why attribute that to anything more than our unique capability of free will? To create our own unique desires?

[Demetrius]

If you wish to go that route I think it is clearer to say that we are encoded to stay together so we have a partner to raise and care for the child, not pop out offspring at random and have the babes die. Human babies are hardly self sufficient, so genetics, to ensure the survival of the next generation would make a family unit to care for and raise the child.

[Nique]

Kind of trying to steer this away from technical definitions of 'Love' and relationships, but yes.

[Demetrius]

So who subscribes to love being a choice you make and who is in the camp of you can't help it when you fall in love?

[musicalmechanic]

It's a subconscious choice that is highly dependent on several variables including your willingness to try (probably the biggest variable), environmental details, and the other person's willingness to try.

The reason I say that your willingness to try is the largest factor is because some people will fall in love with someone else regardless of how the other person feels.

I should also mention that I support Krylo in his assumptions that we're hard-coded to have multiple partners, and it's society that places the burden of only having one partner on us.

I love my wife dearly, and would never cheat on her. But to say I haven't thought about it is a lie. I don't feel guilty about this little fact because it's my dedication to her and her dedication in return that makes our relationship so strong.

That, and the kinky times with Meow Meow :cool:

[Krylo]

I kind of take issue with this sort of blanket statment. I can just as easily say that the moral degradation of society is what has cuased spouses to cheat on each other, can't I?You can say whatever you want, but history, science, research, current trends in crime, and every other resource other than the bible belt (who have been saying that since the dawn of time) disagrees with you.

Violent crime? Down.

Theft? Down.

And sexuality? Right now it's up. That is true. However that's only when compared to a relatively small section of time. Let's take medieval Europe as an example. This was a world ruled by the 'CHURCH', and yet multiple paramours (that's 'I don't want my wife to know what the fuck I'm talking about' for 'mistress' or 'chick I bang on the side') were had by nearly every knight. Or at least that's what every writing from the time points to, despite the efforts of the Church of the era to hide such misdeeds... and the immorality of this is arguable to the extreme. I actually find it offensive that sexuality IS seen as evil and immoral, but I'll argue the point from your point of view, wrong though it may be.

So, yes, you can SAY whatever you want. Making a reasonable arguement out of it is far more difficult.

Or, that the only thing actually hardcoded into our genes is the desire/need for sex. I don't know how you'd prove something further than that, considering how many attempts at monogamous relationships there are, even if they aren't always successful... and how painful it can be to the partner who has been cheated on? How is that biologically beneficial?The pain isn't biologically beneficial, and, indeed, only exists due to societal constructs which were originally created for good reasons, as Demetrius pointed out--To protect human children.

HOWEVER, they are far from the only way to raise a child. Take a few of the native tribes of Africa as an example. Here polygamy is the norm, and, further, children are not raised by their parents. Instead children are raised by the village as a whole. Many do not even know who their birth parents were.

Or we could take the Mormons, where, again, polygamy was the average, and children were raised not by a single father and mother, but by a father with many mothers--a situation that, if not for various biological factors (men not being susceptible to gestation periods, and the use of greater muscle mass to 'enslave' women near the concept of society, being chief amongst these) could have gone the other way.

Or how about Rome, Greece, and Mesopotamia in general? Polygamy wasn't exactly par for the course, however sleeping around was. The children were merely raised by the mother and her family regardless of who the father happened to be, and yet you read very few tales from these time periods speaking of broken hearts due to someone cheating on their wife. I mean, hell, look at the Odyssey. How many chicks did our hero bang on his way home? And did his wife even care?

Jealousy is an ugly beast and one created by society itself, not humanity.

The fact of the matter is that monogamous relationships are only so widespread because the societies which practiced it also liked to practice violence against their neighbors and spread their beliefs through violence once in charge of a country. The 'White Man's Burden' being a wonderful example of this. We spread our beliefs, one of which being monogamy, through genocide.

The number of monogamous relationships attempted proves nothing about the human base condition.

However, the number of them that fail horribly certainly does.

PLUS! There are so many other more likely reasons that people cheat on each other - a sizable portion of these reasons do not reflect healthy social interactions. Lack of communication, withholding sex from your partner as a means of punishment, abuse (physical or emotional). I mean, yeah, let's face it, people are kind of messed up.These tend to be rationalizations. Of women that admitted to cheating on their husbands, most of them had rationalizations for doing so. Most believing that their husband had cheated on them. How often this was the case is hard to discern. Further, men who gave the same explanation, generally had no rationalization. They had the opportunity and took it. However, if monogamy was hard coded into the human genome:

1) Their husbands wouldn't have cheated on them.

2) They would't have cheated on their husbands afterward.

3) We wouldn't still find other people attractive after having attained a mate.

Proof of this lies in many birds wherein monogamy IS hard coded into their genetics. They do not have sex before finding a life mate as humans do. They do not cheat on their life mates. They never find another life mate after their original has died.

That is what genetic monogamy looks like.

What we have is societal engineering and the enslavement and repression of sexuality to the general detriment of humanity at large. I mean, the romance aspiration in Sims 2 would be WAY easier without your sim fuck-buddies wanting to get all monogamous up in your face.

But just becuase something is the norm doesn't mean it's good or healthy, or even that it is 'hard-coded' into our genes. I agree.

In fact I never said that 'cheating' was good. Indeed, I believe it is quite the terrible thing. Regardless of whether the proliferation of monogamous thought amongst humanity is a good or bad thing, the fact is that it EXISTS, and as such cheating on someone IS painful, whether it should be or not.

Because of this fact, regardless of how wrong the societal construct is, it should be observed. Randomly cheating on your significant other will not change society. It will only hurt them needlessly. It's far better to simply end a relationship when the urge to cheat gets that strong... even though doing so would most definately be painful as you can still be quite attached to someone.

Plus: Eating burgers is pretty normal, and its certainly neither healthy OR genetically coded.
Yes, Humans kind of cover the board when it comes to types of romantic relationships, but why attribute that to anything more than our unique capability of free will? To create our own unique desires?I believe I just DID attribute it to that...

So who subscribes to love being a choice you make and who is in the camp of you can't help it when you fall in love?I don't see how it could be considered a conscious choice any more than liking ice cream or girls could be considered a choice... I don't even really understand the basis of that belief.

[Nique]

You can say whatever you want, but history, science, research, current trends in crime, and every other resource other than the bible belt (who have been saying that since the dawn of time) disagrees with you. Violent crime? Down. Theft? Down.

There was a degree of hyperbole in the sentance you are responding to here. I don't know if that affects your reply at all, but there it is. Whether or not society is 'degrading' (over all of human history) is something I hope you accept is, at the very least, rationally debatable.

I actually find it offensive that sexuality IS seen as evil and immoral

Can we make a distinction between 'sexuality' itself vs. how it's used? I'm not sure I like what sounds like an implication about my belifes, though I'm sure it isn't intended that way.

HOWEVER, they are far from the only way to raise a child.

I want to restate this;

Or, that the only thing actually hardcoded into our genes is the desire/need for sex.

In light of so many variations on making and raising the next generation, that really seems like the only provable statment.

These tend to be rationalizations. Of women that admitted to cheating on their husbands, most of them had rationalizations for doing so. Most believing that their husband had cheated on them. How often this was the case is hard to discern. Further, men who gave the same explanation, generally had no rationalization. They had the opportunity and took it.

Source? I trust you did the research, I'd just like to see it.

However, if monogamy was hard coded into the human genome:

Nope. I'm as willing to admit it's primarily a social practice as much as you are. Specific types of relationships beyond very basic, maybe say, herding behavior, seem much more like social inventions. The trick to any of them being beneficial is actually using them benevolently.

The only reason I brought up the birds was to say that if such behaviors WERE hardcoded into our genetics, or still relevant in our genome in the face of other human traits, monagamy might be in their as well, even if less prevelently.

In fact I never said that 'cheating' was good. Indeed, I believe it is quite the terrible thing. Regardless of whether the proliferation of monogamous thought amongst humanity is a good or bad thing, the fact is that it EXISTS, and as such cheating on someone IS painful, whether it should be or not.

Let me put it this way; Some of my response to your initial post was motivated by personal feelings about you, actually. I generally think you are a decent human being, and that you do seem to care about relationships - Some of your points had me concerned that you (or anyone, for that matter) might use these opinions as a rationale or excuse for infidelity, either your own or someone else's who is/ could become involved with you in an exlusive relationship. I hope that doesn't come across as insulting or demeaning, and it isn't meant as a dig at your charecter at all. I dunno... Since you felt the need to explain yourself on that point though, I thought I should do the same, and apologize if I put you in a position where you thought you had to validate yourself.

Jealousy is an ugly beast and one created by society itself, not humanity.

I don't know about that. Society does put things in front of me that bring up that emotion, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there to begin with.

I don't see how it could be considered a conscious choice any more than liking ice cream or girls could be considered a choice... I don't even really understand the basis of that belief.

I can actually speak to that - Conciously cultivating 'love' for something is actually an interesting idea becuase it so much goes against the normal romantic notions of love at first sight. I mean, ever tried to look past someone's flaws? Choke down some food you didn't initially like a few times?

[Melfice]

To get away from the scientific discussion above me. =P

"Love is a state in which your own happiness is dependant on the safety and happiness of others."

Pretty much how to describe how I feel love.
If I know my girlfriend is safe and happy, I can be happy too. If she's not one of these two, I'll go through lengths to make it happen.

Also, to add to that, love is when you feel content being around somebody. To feel at ease, and being able to share whatever you want with him/her.

My opinion on it, at least.