wait, CAN a Lightsaber deflect magic missiles?

[LaughingMan42]

I don't know about you all, but when I read Sosa's news post about how Brain was demonstrating his great need of INT enchanted items when he suggested a Lightsaber could deflect a magic missile (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=070113), well I was bursting at the seems to discover the truth concerning the Jedi master's weapon's effects on this "never-miss" projectile of Arcane origin. (Run on sentence For the WIN!)

So anyway, I punched into google, and was unsurprised that that issue had already been resolved (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=lightsaber+magic+missile&spell=1) by various groups, to varying conclusions.

What was surprising was that a the front page results included a group that had some sci-fi leanings (http://soe.lithium.com/swg/board/print?board.id=role_playing&message.id=65929&format=one), where the poster included a quote in the signature:

"So what you’re asking is “can a lightsaber block a magic missile?” The answer is no. A magic missile always hits its target. Period. The Jedi would move to block the missile, the missile would move, the Jedi would move to intercept again, the missile would move again, etc. Eventually the Jedi would tire or make a mistake and that’s when the Magic Missile would hit." -- Red Mage"(looking at that now, being signed 'Red Mage' this quote may have an origin in Sosa's old column, and I would therefore only be embarrassing myself posting this to the forums here. Can anyone confirm this is a quote from "Twinkin' Out with Red Mage"?)

The interesting part is that these are (assertably) Sci-Fi fans, an ethnic group one can easily picture worshiping before a Jedi shrine, complete with Lightsaber mounted upon its Holy visage. These Sci-Fi fan(atics) have downplayed the ability of a Lightsaber to deflect a Magic Missile, either among themselves, or by agreeing with the opinion of a third party (e.g. Sosa) in the belief that the Arcane anomaly is just as unbeatable as it purports to be.

On the other hand, another front page result which i would pin as definitely fantasy originated (http://www.spelljammer.org/npcs/shipcrews/Snapdragon/Snapdragon.html) has simply assimilated the lightsaber into the ranks known as magic weaponry, and properly endowed it with properties equivalent to those displayed in the Sci-Fi canon. (though i personally believe 2d6+3 to be on the low side for Lightsaber damage)
These properties include the effects of attempting to block a magic missile:

"A trained mystic knight (one who has acquired a proficiency) can perform many special feats with a lightsaber. Among the more impressive of these is missile deflection. With a successful Wisdom check, any small magical or non-magical missiles can be deflected, including the magic missile spell."

When I saw these two differing accounts, I immediately rushed to the 8-bit theater forums, secure in the knowledge that I would find a heated discussion concerning the exact utility of a Lightsaber wielded by a skilled user when he is said wielder is facing down an approaching Magic Missile, and the results, down to specific nit-dismembering detail of the event.

Imagine my surprise when, upon scouring the forums and utilizing the search feature, no such heated debate was discovered!

So I took it upon myself to create this very topic, even going to the lengths of creating an actual account and reading through those really very nice rules and assenting to abide by them.

I'm sure that by this point in the post, those of you who actuality bothered reading this far into it, wish very much I hadn't bothered, or at least wish there was a clause in those rules concerning lengthy, and unorthodoxly explicit posts with so very much use of italics.

In any case, if Sosa's whole point was that he had expounded on the matter in the "Twinkin' Out with Red Mage" column on this very site, then he has made a grave tactical error. If he means to suggest that the rulings on RPG mechanics that he fervently espoused in that column have any merit in a discussion of actualized RPG mechanics, then he will have to account for the supposed utility of febreeze in various RPG combat situations.The topic of Febreeze came up many times in that Column, and i'm sure I don't have to remind you of the ridiculous assertions made by all parties on that account.

So my point is:
(Dear Red Mage,)
Can a lightsaber deflect a Magic missile?

Conflicting answers found through Google:
-The Sci-Fi nerds say 'No, Red Mage said they can't'
-The Fantasy RPG nerds say 'Yes, as long as the Lightsaber is magic too'
-and this Sosa guy says 'Brian says they can, and he's "smelly" so i'm going to say that only a Shield spell can block a Magic Missile'

[Kroze Gamegod]

Ooooh...
You bring a tough debate to the table here.
Now I have personally had this discussion with my friends in the past as well over long nights of D&D and Exalted games and we came to the conclusion that the lightsaber is defently a magic embued weapon due to the crystal inside of it.
The ruling is as stated about what a mystic knight can pull off with a lightsaber.

Personally, I think Sosa is using his unholy powers over the internet here to manipulate it to work in his favor, and as much as I have learned in the Sosa School for Fabreeze, I would have to side with Brian on this one.
EXCEPT for one small detail..
The lightsaber NEEDS to be wielded by a Jedi Knight to stop this Magic Missile and can not do so by itself.

Thats the only hole I can find in this, Brian did NOT state if the wielder of the said lightsaber was indeed a Jedi Knight or not so Sosa must of assumed that he was talking about the lightsaber by itself in which case he would be right.

So in conclusion, the answer is both depending on the condition.

[LaughingMan42]

Oh. My. GOD.
I wrote an entire post, several paragraphs in length, exhorting my opinion on a relatively small detail (or so it would seem to most outside observers) of a news post now two days old. I wrote the post in the kind of high language that i have become convinced is an open invitation to ridicule, unless used in sparse segments on your own webspace, where you can set the linguistic bar as high or as low as you desire. So I wrote it in the General Forum, (where the titles invariably read 'anything but spam' but they would more truthfully advertise 'anything your fellow forumites do not reject' - a much narrower standard) fully expecting some kind of dismissal of the entire affair as irrelevant, if for no other reason then that my natural flow in pros is reminiscent of a student textbook.

However, low and behold; not only do I receive an honest response but, furthermore, the response has taken it's cue from my style in prose, and is entirely written in a consenting style!

This is far, far beyond the experience i have had on other webcomic forums, even those one might expect to have a userbase composed of like minded individuals. This is the very pinnacle of intelligent discussion and -I must say- it is a refreshing change from some of my former haunts (http://forums.megatokyo.com/index.php?showforum=1).

Here I have come, and here-
Here I shall stay.

EDIT:
Right, there is a topic at hand.
The lightsaber NEEDS to be wielded by a Jedi Knight to stop this Magic Missile and can not do so by itself.

Yes, that would be correct. Even a lightsaber, magical or otherwise, has been shown to obey Newton's laws of motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_motion), so a lightsaber by itself would just sit there, and could do nothing to deflect a Magic Missile.
(yes, that's right it's a joke...)
I am willing to concent that Brian did not make it clear that the Lightsaber in question was not being wielded by a Jedi Knight. But who is the wielder,
and what degree of proficiency is required in order to utilize a Lightsaber to deflect Magic Missiles? What if there is no official Jedi Order in the campaign? Clearly, this will have to be decided on a case to case basis, so the the DM (GM) is going to have to be tricked into letting it happen consulted with pertaining to this particular issue.

[Meister]

Magic Missile originates from D&D, which as we know is d20-based, so we need a source for the lightsaber that works along the same basic ruleset. Thus, what we need to do first and foremost is look into a Star Wars d20 book and see if there's anything we can work with.

Alternatively, you could look at the D&D rules, specifically the description of the shield spell:
Shield creates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you.
Depending on what meaning you want to assign to the word "force" here you could argue that a well-trained Jedi wouldn't need a lightsaber to block magic missiles in the first place.

I'd go with the Star Wars d20 book, myself, as splitting hairs over how George Lucas happened to name his Jedi mojo something that already has a defined meaning in the English language is just asking for someone getting hurt at the hypothetical Star Wars/D&D crossover gaming table.

Here I have come, and here-
Here I shall stay.
Make yourself right at home. But you better come up with stuff like this on a regular basis.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

It mentions that the shield spell is made of 'force' and (obviously) so are magic missiles. Thus the two energies cancel each other out. Now, the question is what energy is the beam of a lightsaber? From the movies, books, comics, etc. the effect of a lightsaber is what appears to be intensely focused heat-based energy. It cauterizes woulds instantly, melts high density metals, turns water to steam instantly, so on and so forth.

D&D 'Force' energy is different. Theres no temperature variance at all. it's like an invisible wall (in the case of Shield), or projectiles (magic missile), hell even a hand (bigby's grasping/interposing/clenched fist).

Seeing as how force is uneffected by temperatures of any sort it leads me to believe that no matter the power of the lightsaber, or skill of the jedi, the magic missile would simply pass through the saber unhindered.

[Elminster_Amaur]

the effect of a lightsaber is what appears to be intensely focused heat-based energy.The lightsaber would be made completely out of highly focused LIGHT. Hence, lightsaber. Now, I don't know about you, but I would think that concentrated high-energy light could deflect pretty much any naturally occuring projectile, including lasers.

Magic Missiles, being MAGIC, inherently alter the laws of nature. So, only something else that also inherently alters the laws of nature (i.e. another form of magic) could deflect something like a Magic Missile. I would classify the Lightsaber as a non-magical weapon, even if it does qualify as masterwork. One would assume, however, that the Jedi's Force Push would be capable of deflecting the Magic Missile, but the Jedi himself would have very little time to realize that between the time he realizes that his lightsaber didn't deflect the missile, and the time that the Missile reaches a point close enough to be undeflectable. The Jedi, of course, having nearly instant reflexes, would have to be able to dodge, and then force the Missile to hit something other than himself using Force powers, and not a physical weapon.

A Sith, on the other hand, could probably stop a Magic Missile quite easily with his Force Lightning.

[Fifthfiend]

it is a refreshing change from some of my former haunts (http://forums.megatokyo.com/index.php?showforum=1).

Oh you poor child.

Come on in, have a seat by the fire.

Let's never speak of that awful place again.

[Squishy Cheeks]

A light saber can absorb or deflect energy based attack into it's matrix. [See "Attack of the Clones"] Light sabers repel each other and blaster shots, and yet Force lightning is absorbed into the blade, for the most part, anything not absorbed is deflected. Also a skilled jedi does not need a lightsaber to deflect energy attacks, Yoda was able to contain and reflect Dooku's force lightning in clones, and Vader deflected Han Solo's Blaster shots with his palm in empire.

Even if the magic missile did adjust to try and hit it's target, a jedi would notice this and force the missile to hit something else (like the ground), thus losing it's potency.

[Fifthfiend]

but the Jedi himself would have very little time to realize that between the time he realizes that his lightsaber didn't deflect the missile, and the time that the Missile reaches a point close enough to be undeflectable.

Aren't Jedi semi-precognitive? So they'd probably know instinctively whether or not a lightsaber would be up to the task at hand.

[Mashirosen]

If Bao-Dur is wielding one, a lightsaber can do anything -- a science fact elegantly demonstrated by playing KOTOR 2 kind of a lot. Bao-Dur is made of science, and science is empirically tuffer than magic, QED.

[Elminster_Amaur]

True, but it'd be only about an instant before he tries to deflect with the saber.

[Azisien]

It can't miss the target, so the ONLY thing that can stop a magic missile is allowing it to hit, but having suitable protection (i.e. Shield spell, wouldn't Spell Mantles and Globes of Invulnerability block them as well?)

Basically, it doesn't have much to do with the lightsaber, I believe the only argument that can be made is that a suitably powerful Jedi, probably a Master, would block the missile with the Force alone. Re: Yoda absorbing force lightning.

Conclusion...No, a lightsaber cannot stop magic missile, but it's possible some Jedi powers can.

[Fifthfiend]

If Bao-Dur is wielding one, a lightsaber can do anything -- a science fact elegantly demonstrated by playing KOTOR 2 kind of a lot. Bao-Dur is made of science, and science is empirically tuffer than magic, QED.

Nonsense. Ancient mystical whammajamma always outdoes highfalutin' techno-hoohah.

EDIT: Is it just me or is this a gussied-up Versus Thread? I mean I'm okay with that, it's not like we've really had any in a while.

EDIT EDIT: Is it just me or did Mashie just participate in a versus thread?

[Althane]

Going by the rules of Arcanum, which is my preferred setting for Magic vs Technology debates... both would shut down the instant the Jedi smacked the missile with the 'sabre.

Easy, aye?

[Squishy Cheeks]

Well if we go by star wars universe rules. all forms of magic are variations of force useage. Ergo, magic missile is a force attack. A lightsaber has been shown to be able to block other force attacks.

If we go by D&D rules, the Jedi is holding a lightsaber, thus it is an extension of himself. Id est, a viable target for magic missile if the jedi is the target.

Both cases, Yes the lightsaber blocks the magic missile.

[Mashirosen]

Nonsense. Ancient mystical whammajamma always outdoes highfalutin' techno-hoohah.
Bao-Dur death-imploded a planet covered in Jedi with his highfalutin' techno-hoohah. Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a dude with a wrench set and a certain maverick glint in his eye.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4393/180pxbaodurconceptgl7.th.png (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=180pxbaodurconceptgl7.png)
Therefore behold, gentlemen! I present to you one whose science-tuffness runs to the core of his least particle -- there can be no true argument against, and only the mulish cries of the ass remain.

Is it just me or did Mashie just participate in a versus thread?
I've got a load of laundry to finish before I head to the open lab. A little versus-dabblin' beats Minesweeper.

[Bells]

Well... im pretty much sure that a magic missile would go trough a lighsaber... only around it...

For the lightsaber to be able to deflect it, it would require contact... i dont see how we can afirm that contact will happen...

But we the Jedi creates a Dome of Force around itself, i belive that the magic missile would hit it and stay as that, as i dont think that it could penetrate a force based shield

[Mirai Gen]

Yeah, from the sounds of things a Jedi would need to use his Force Push or something like it to deflect Magic Missile.

The default description on the damage Magic Missile inflicts is bashing "force" damage (the impact of the missiles and all). So, thusly, a Jedi could, but he wouldn't need his saber (which is composed of plasma).

[The Argent Lord]

I'd say that a Jedi could deflect/absorb the missile with his saber. If is was deflected, though, I'd say it would have to impact something else almost immediately or it would come back to try again. Absorption would work the same way as force lightning.

[Krylo]

While the cutting blade of a lightsaber is INDEED made of concentrated light (ergo, an extremely dense photon field), one forgets that it is not the concentrated light that allows the lightsaber to parry/absorb/do anything else it damnwell pleases.

The lightsaber is an extension of the jedi, and--as is stated in the books, games, and movies--the force flows through the lightsaber as it flows through the jedi.

This is why when Yoda is grabbing the force lightning, it twirls around his hand, and is absorbed into him before being expelled--just like it does when the lightning hits a lightsaber. This is why when Vader deflected the blaster bolt from his hand, it deflected in exactly the same manner as a lightsaber would.

The lightsaber is constantly 'coated in a dome' of force energy (though this is a misnomer, it's more like the force swirls through the blade), which is what allows the jedi to use it without cutting themselves all to hell, as well. They know, preternaturally, where it is.

The lightsaber is not just 'an extension of one's will' or 'one's body' in the metaphorical sense of a normal sword to a master swordsman. No, it is in quite the literal sense, as the very lifeforce of the jedi, in the form of the force, is running through his saber.

THEREFORE, yes, a jedi could deflect or destroy a magic missile with his lightsaber.

A non-jedi, however, would not only fail to deflect the missile, but go about cutting himself to ribbons.

[Fifthfiend]

A non-jedi, however, would not only fail to deflect the missile, but go about cutting himself to ribbons.

Yeah come down to it, if you're asking whether a non-jedi could block a projectile with a lightsaber, you're skipping over a whole raft of questions starting with how is a non-jedi walking around with all his limbs still attached after trying to wield a lightsaber?

Bao-Dur death-imploded a planet covered in Jedi with his highfalutin' techno-hoohah.

Yeah, but Raistlin would kick his gizmo-covered ass.

[Kroze Gamegod]

A non-jedi, however, would not only fail to deflect the missile, but go about cutting himself to ribbons.

Yet we have seen non-Jedi use lightsabers in the past in the books and in the movies and they come out unharmed.
Your logic is flawed good sir!

[Fifthfiend]

in the movies

??

I'm not remembering this.

Unless you mean like, Grievous, but he was a robot so that doesn't count.

[Kroze Gamegod]

??

I'm not remembering this.

Unless you mean like, Grievous, but he was a robot so that doesn't count.

Not robot... ANDROID...
A cyberman if you will.
Still not a jedi...
And need I remind you that Luke used a lightsaber before he was even fully trained along with many others.
Han used the lightsaber in Empire Strikes back to cut the Tauntaun open if I remember correctly...

[42PETUNIAS]

Still, there was no fighting or blocking in that.

[Phlegyas]

If we go by D&D rules, the Jedi is holding a lightsaber, thus it is an extension of himself. Id est, a viable target for magic missile if the jedi is the target.

This statement and the other less concise statements like this one are the reasons I can see the lightsaber deflecting a magic missile.

See, here's the issue. Me and my D&D group had previously debated a subject not relative to this but it gives an answer. As many people may know, the "animation" that proceeds when one casts a magic missile spell is really for look. One can change the color, shape, consistency etc. So, knowing this, we surmised that a magic missile does not essentially "travel" from the caster's hands to the target. The animation one sees that creates this illusion is much like a laser sight, which is why someone with total cover cannot be hit. Rather what happens is this animation marks the spot and the "missile" manifests at the marker and then explodes.

Now, this marker is not necessarily "light" either so simply moving the lightsaber in the way would not block the missile. The only possible option is using the theory that force flows through the lightsaber and translating this force to pure, arcane energy which would undoubtedly cover whatever the magic missile's marker consists of. So, as one said, the Jedi can wave the lightsaber in front of the marker and designate itself as the new target, but one must also realize that lightsabers can break and the magic missile's damage would go to the lightsaber and risk sundering it, skipping damage reduction of any kind, naturally. So, ultimately, I believe that, yes, a Jedi can block a magic missile with his light saber but he risks sundering his saber in the process.

[Mashirosen]

Yeah, but Raistlin would kick his gizmo-covered ass
Am I hearing this? Am I really hearing someone say that some '70s van mural refugee is going to lay so much as one white mage-diddling finger on my boy? Bao-Dur would have a smart bomb targeted for every Raistlinoid particle in up to eight dimensions conceptualized, prototyped, field-tested and fully operational before that Nightwish-listening cakesniffer could yank his brother's +1 Pork Sword out of his mouth. Oh no she di-in't.

[Krylo]

On the subject of Bao-Dur... is his forearm made out of plasma? Because it looks like his forearm is made out of plasma.

[Mirai Gen]

His arm is made out of some sort of electro-static energy, but it has properties that really can be whatever the hell he wants.

His hand is metallic, I believe.

In his own words, "I got bored of my arm, so I cut it off and got a new one."

On the whole "Lightsaber extent of the Force" thing, yeah, he could use it to deflect a Magic Missile, but it's not really neccesary.

Of course flashy fighters like Obi-Wan or Anakin or Atton Rand would probably use the lightsaber anyway.

[Krylo]

Electro-static energy is ALMOST as awesome as plasma, plus I guess it can do all the stuff that plasma can, plus some?

Yeah. Mr. Dur wins. No one beats someone with a forearm made out of energy.

[Mirai Gen]

Well his electro-static energy can diffuse energy shields, meanwhile that's one of the few things that lightsabers can't.

So, yeah, plus some. Mr. Dur does indeed win this thread which originally had nothing to do with him.

[Patrat]

I can't believe i'm actually joining this conversation....
Ok
Magic Missiles have kinetic engery, or the ability to move, like pretty much everything does. If it is able to inflict physical "I cast you fall down on impact" damage onto somone then it must have some sort of inertia. With that, a lightsaber is pure, high form, kenetic energy, using heat as it's main source of damage. I say this so i can use it for the arguement that a ligtsaber will SOMHOW affect a magic missle. It's just doesn't make sense to say it wouldn't. Energy affects energy, plain and simple. IF by chance a magic missle were able to pass through the lightsaber, via cutting though it or whatnot, i don't know what'd happen, just that it would not what it normally is. It dissapate, it could EXPLODE, abosrb the light saber energy and be even WORSE, it startch itself and yell ow, becuase screw the rules, it's MAGIC, no one knows, nor will we. It's just NOT gunna pass through it and go, "well that was fun"
If i had to guess, it's either disspate(perhaps violently) or loose it's original course and crash itno something else, but it really could be anything.

[xravi]

Dur is cool. He would be even cooler if he did not always talk in a whisper though.

[LaughingMan42]

The idea that it is not the Lightsaber itself, but the force powers of the Jedi wielding it that does the deflection is essentially an angle I hadn't really considered before. This view proposes the Lightsaber is merely a tool, which the Jedi has the option of directing the force through in order to more easily achieve the deflection of a projectile.

If this can be considered a canonically accurate representation of the nature of a Jedi's ability to deflect projectile threats, then the object of this entire topic is essentially flawed.

-Jedi use the force to deflect missiles.
-Magic Missiles may or may not be affected by force-based deflection powers of Jedi in any given setting.
-A Jedi might use a Lightsaber to focus his Force-deflection power or he may not.
-A Lightsaber, therefore has no power of it's own to deflect anything.
-With or without Jedi wielder, Lightsabers have no power of their own to deflect a Magic Missile QED

I think that I have, additionally, furthered my understanding of a Jedi and the source of his powers, as well as the role of a Lightsaber in Jedi combat.

[Elminster_Amaur]

-With or without Jedi wielder, Lightsabers have no power of their own deflect a Magic Missile QEDThat may be, but I know that in KoTOR II, the Force Deflection power is given a bonus when the Jedi/Sith is wielding a Lightsaber. That indicates that using the Lightsaber to deflect something is easier than doing so without the Lightsaber (that required additional proficency, though I forget the name of the Force Power).

[Bells]

oh my god... reading this thread actually makes me feel better about my life :D thanks guys!

ZING!

aaaah whataheck... just to be on Topic... ish...

Can a lightsaber hurt superman?

[Elminster_Amaur]

A red one can, but a yellow lightsaber would give him more powers. XD

[Long-Haired Narcissist]

I just came up with the greatest weapon ever, a Kryptonyte infused lightsaber.

[LaughingMan42]

the Lightsaber is merely a tool, which the Jedi has the option of directing the force through in order to more easily achieve the deflection of a projectile.
That indicates that using the Lightsaber to deflect something is easier than doing so without the Lightsaber
So... you agree with me?


I just came up with the greatest weapon ever, a Kryptonyte infused lightsaber.
Could you use a kryptonyte crystal in the base of the Lightsaber somehow?

[Elminster_Amaur]

So... you agree with me?...Yes? I must have misread your post. Quite easy to do with dryed out contacts bubbling in yer eyes.

I wish there were a way I could see without contacts or glasses that didn't involve lasers aimed at my eyes.

I just came up with the greatest weapon ever, a Kryptonyte infused lightsaber.Could you use a kryptonyte crystal in the base of the Lightsaber somehow?
Well, since you can put three crystals into a lightsaber, with 1 of them having to be a colored one, and the other two changing the qualities of it, I would assume that you could somehow turn a chunk of Kryptonyte into one of the altering-type crystals. The real question is why would you want to? I mean, what are the chances that a Jedi and Superman are going to cross paths? And beyond that, why would a Jedi and Superman be fighting each other? Even if we're just talking about one of the other Kryptonians, who live close enough to Earth to send baby Supes over before he is even aged beyond infancy (assuming no stasis) and the others who escaped are capable of reaching Earth within Supes' lifetime(stasis wouldn't matter), they're probably soo far away from any Sith or Jedi that it becomes a moot point.

Unless...perhaps the Sith were the ones who destroyed Krypton! There's no telling how far their grasp is...

[Fifthfiend]

Am I hearing this? Am I really hearing someone say that some '70s van mural refugee is going to lay so much as one white mage-diddling finger on my boy? Bao-Dur would have a smart bomb targeted for every Raistlinoid particle in up to eight dimensions conceptualized, prototyped, field-tested and fully operational before that Nightwish-listening cakesniffer could yank his brother's +1 Pork Sword out of his mouth. Oh no she di-in't.

Pssht, and look at you talking up fuckin' Vin Diesel, who got lost on the way to Chronicles of Another Shitty Vin Diesel movie and ended up in extended universe Star Wars, where they loved him so much they put him into an awesome videogame's shitty sequel. Where he was super tough at killing Jedi who were on his own side! Yeah that's real impressive sciencin' ability, the ability to scientifically blow up your own army. You know, impressive for people who like losers.

[Demetrius]

Can't monks and rogues deflect/reflect magic missiles? I remember reading about that in the epic book maybe.

Raistlin beats all challengers, he defeated his own friggin' deity for crying out loud. Bao-Dur is just not on the same scale, sure he took out a planet, Raistlin destroyed the universe, and all dieties in it (in the alternate timeline that Caramon and the kender whose name I can't remember averted).

[gurusloth]

Can't monks and rogues deflect/reflect magic missiles? I remember reading about that in the epic book maybe.

Raistlin beats all challengers, he defeated his own friggin' deity for crying out loud. Bao-Dur is just not on the same scale, sure he took out a planet, Raistlin destroyed the universe, and all dieties in it (in the alternate timeline that Caramon and the kender whose name I can't remember averted).Kender name = Tasselhoff Burrfoot.

On the magic missile/lightsaber issue, why bother blocking it? Just take the pittance of damage (if you're a Jedi, you probably are of decently high level anyway), cut the uppity wizard in half, then use Force Healing. Problem solved.

However, I'd say that if a monk can eventually take a feat that allows them to deflect magic missiles, I'd say a Jedi could do the same.

[Mirai Gen]

That's Deflect Anything, and it's only Ray attacks. Magic Missile is an unerring Force attack.

Damn I'm a geek. I know that by heart.

[Mashirosen]

Where he was super tough at killing Jedi who were on his own side! Yeah that's real impressive sciencin' ability, the ability to scientifically blow up your own army.
Dude, this is science, not some mall Wiccan slumber party! When Bao-Dur has to drop the megaton hammer, you can get your space hippie ass out of its way or become an acceptable casualty. Science is a cold and rational titan, not some floppy-titted mommy goddess who gets sniffly over PetSmart Christmas commercials. Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't even have been necessary if the Jedi were actually good for much besides wearing shit-colored bathrobes and having more petty slapfights disguised as policy meetings than a small town PTA.

[Elminster_Amaur]

When Bao-Dur has to drop the megaton hammer, you can get your space hippie ass out of its way or become an acceptable casualty.Wait, Bao-Dur has the Megaton Hammer?! Does that mean he's the guy who originally sealed away Volvagia?! That would mean Link is superior to him, since Link KILLED Volvagia.

On the magic missile/lightsaber issue, why bother blocking it? Just take the pittance of damage (if you're a Jedi, you probably are of decently high level anyway), cut the uppity wizard in half, then use Force Healing.I would guess that they would prefer blocking it, because they are based off of the Shaolin Monks. What do I know about Shaolin? I know that they would never risk getting hit(on purpose, anyway), because they would routinely fight people who could destroy an entire stone wall with one punch. Assuming that they are as closely related to Shaolin as Lucas has said, they would never purposely take a hit, except in the case of the most mediocre of Jedi: Obi Wan. Everyone always says Obi Wan must have been strong to survive. WRONG! Obi Wan had only mastered the BASICS. He was incapably of using high-end force powers, because he wasn't strong enough. The real reason he survived is probably because he wasn't a real threat to the Empire. Yoda, on the other hand...

[Meister]

Wait, Bao-Dur has the Megaton Hammer?! Does that mean he's the guy who originally sealed away Volvagia?! That would mean Link is superior to him, since Link KILLED Volvagia.
Maybe Link's already dead. Maybe he killed Link and took his Megaton Hammer. You ever think of that... prick?
</vercetti>

[Akamaz]

hey, here's a question, could the deathstar laser be deflected by a jedi with a lightsaber? i mean, all it really is is a big blaster bolt

[Elminster_Amaur]

Maybe Link's already dead. Maybe he killed Link and took his Megaton Hammer. You ever think of that... prick?Impossible.
1. As soon as Link defeated Ganon, he went back in time, after rescattering his well earned items as he inexplicably does.
2. Link didn't die between OoT and MM, at which point he didn't have the Hammer (I assume he returned it to the Gorons), therefore, Bao-Dur couldn't have killed Link and stolen it during that period of time.
3. Bao-Dur creates all of his own weapons. If he has the Megaton Hammer, he's the one that made it.

If Link had been around with a Vibroblade or a Lightsaber at the time that the Emperor took over, the rebellion wouldn't have had time to form. He would have sealed the Emperor away for some reason using the MasterSaber after collecting a bunch of random items that will have no impact upon the boss fight. My reasoning? If Link > Bao-Dur, then Ganon > Emperor.

[Nikose Tyris]

Well, since you can put three crystals into a lightsaber, with 1 of them having to be a colored one, and the other two changing the qualities of it, I would assume that you could somehow turn a chunk of Kryptonyte into one of the altering-type crystals. The real question is why would you want to? I mean, what are the chances that a Jedi and Superman are going to cross paths? And beyond that, why would a Jedi and Superman be fighting each other? Even if we're just talking about one of the other Kryptonians, who live close enough to Earth to send baby Supes over before he is even aged beyond infancy (assuming no stasis) and the others who escaped are capable of reaching Earth within Supes' lifetime(stasis wouldn't matter), they're probably soo far away from any Sith or Jedi that it becomes a moot point.

Unless...perhaps the Sith were the ones who destroyed Krypton! There's no telling how far their grasp is...

I Don't know the source of our statements on the lightsabers- The Varying sizes and aspects can allow for different numbers of Crystals to be placed within- The largest handle being 18 inches long. Each addition takes up 1 socket within, and an 18 inch handle holds 16 sockets- These can be used for Crystals as well as extra parts. Changing your saber to be Force-activated instead of touch-plate takes up 2 sockets but DAMN IT'S COOL, for instance- There are Crystals which will significantly up the focus of the blade, extend or shorten the length, etc. as quoted in the GURPS STAR WARS suppliment.

I'm only referencing GURPS becuase it's the only Sourcebook I have on hand, and it's fairly accurate with comments by Gene Rodenberry and George Lucas inside.

But Kryptonite, while not TECHNICALLY a Force-Crystal, can be used in a spare socket to enhance the photon blade with Kryponite Qualities, likely tinging it green too.

[Meister]

... yeah, I got nothing.
hey, here's a question, could the deathstar laser be deflected by a jedi with a lightsaber? i mean, all it really is is a big blaster bolt
I can just see that poor guy who drew the shortest straw standing in a field with his lightsaber at the ready going "I should have listened to Mom and become a droid mechanic." :D

[The Argent Lord]

hey, here's a question, could the deathstar laser be deflected by a jedi with a lightsaber? i mean, all it really is is a big blaster bolt
Well, yeah, but it's have to be a really big lightsaber, or it wouldn't end well. Think about the lightsaber like a mirror. Now, a blaster bolt is smaller than the blade's width, so the saber can deflect it just fine. This is the equivalent of aiming a laser pointer at a mirror. Everything deflects, and anything behind the mirror is untouched. But the death star is different. It's a really, really freaking huge beam. Trying to block it with a lightsaber is like pointing a spotlight at your mirror. It'll reflect part of it, but the rest will go right past. Also, it'll go out after deflecting a very small part of the beam, as the hilt is vaporized.

[Artstsym]

Ok, check it out. A light saber CANNOT deflect a magic missle,based on the fact that one could not swing it fast enough to constantly have it around him/her at all times and at some point the MM would get through, but if you had, say, a wall of light sabers stacked on top of each other in between you and the caster, the DM might be able to rule that as a improvised wall of force and a wall of force or shield spell would block a MM. By the way, why does it matter? Magic Missile is uber-weak anyway. If you have light sabers at this point, why do you care if the enemy tosses some lv 1 spells at you? As for the death star bolt, could you take the splash damage it would induce?

[Phlegyas]

Magic Missile is uber-weak anyway.

Hmmmmmm... so, I take it it is safe to ignore the rest of your opinion then? :p

[mauve]

I think the ability to deflect a magic missile would depend on the Jedi. If it's some semi-random dude with a small fan following, like Kit Fisto or Aayla Secura, then he/she might make a valiant effort but fail horribly in the end. If it's just some completely random dude who has no name at all, he's toast. If it's Obi-Wan Kenobi, then LucasFilm magically alters the fabric of reality so that not only can he DEFLECT the magic missile, he can bounce it back at the wizard, kill said wizard, and then kill everyone the wizard holds dear. Because Lucas needs Obi-Wan to survive until Episode Four, and the power of legally binding film contracts is even greater than those of logic and nature.

[Fifthfiend]

Also cause he's either Ewan MacGregor or Alec Guiness, who are both totally awesome.

By comparison like, badass scary James-Earl-Jones-voiced Darth Vader from episodes IV-VI would totally slap aside any stupid magic missle you tried to throw at him, while whiny kiddie sissy douche Darth Vader from episodes I-III would try and get stung on the ass, and then curl up into the fetal position, weeping and sucking his thumbs.

Well, since you can put three crystals into a lightsaber, with 1 of them having to be a colored one, and the other two changing the qualities of it, I would assume that you could somehow turn a chunk of Kryptonyte into one of the altering-type crystals. The real question is why would you want to? I mean, what are the chances that a Jedi and Superman are going to cross paths? And beyond that, why would a Jedi and Superman be fighting each other? Even if we're just talking about one of the other Kryptonians, who live close enough to Earth to send baby Supes over before he is even aged beyond infancy (assuming no stasis) and the others who escaped are capable of reaching Earth within Supes' lifetime(stasis wouldn't matter), they're probably soo far away from any Sith or Jedi that it becomes a moot point.

Unless...perhaps the Sith were the ones who destroyed Krypton! There's no telling how far their grasp is...

You could always get real nutty and throw in one of those crazy-ass alternate-colors of Kryptonite in there. Sure you've still got the issue of where do you get ahold of Superman to use this thing on, but once you do how awesome is it gonna be to whack him with your Red Kryptonite lightsaber and all of a sudden Superman grows three heads or gets transformed into Bizarro Superman or ceases to have ever existed?

Of course what'd be really sweet would be if you got hold of whatever rock they make those fuckin' Green Lantern rings out of.

[Dino_Hunter]

I was under the assumtion the the light saber could block most any projectile, the mian question is if the magic missile is stronger then a consentrated beam of light.

[42PETUNIAS]

I was under the assumtion the the light saber could block most any projectile, the mian question is if the magic missile is stronger then a consentrated beam of light.

It's not a projectile though, its magic. And one of the main questions is if it would go straight for the person, or loop around until it could hit.

[Yellow Mage]

The only way a Lightsaber could truly block a Magic Missile would be to assume that perpetual motion exsits, and with great reflexes, too. Sure, one could discuss what could happen if a Magic Missile touched a Lightsaber, but unless the traget was the lightsaber itself and not the wielder, the Missile would never make contact.

Now, from two entirely different planes of reality, you have on one side Issac, and the other, Random Combat Jedi Android Code #44445. The Android is a programmed master at the way with the Lightsaber, with a Devastating Critical feat and all Specialization feats to prove it. Not bad for a Construct type Fighter, eh?

However, Issac practically INVENTED the Magic Missile, with such spells acredited to him such as various Missile Storms to accompany those of a higher understanding of magic. If there's a feat that enhances Evocations, this Wizard (with specialization in Evocations, of course) has it.

Issac casts a single, simple Magic Missile spell with the target being #44445. #44445 waves the lightsaber to block, but the Magic Missile, now partially blocked, now searches for a new opening. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Assuming #44445 ran on infinite motion, the battle to not get hit by the relatively weak spell would continue for eternity until a third party decided to intervene. It would be in the form of:

A. Another Wizard casting any in the Dispel series at the perpetually seeking missile (because it is being infinitely held at bay, BUT NOT STOPPED, it is easier to target), thus ending the session.

B. Old Issac over there getting wise and saying "he only has one Lightsaber," and keep casting Missiles until eventually one breaches the paper-thin Lightsaber parry defense (take note that at least one will be forever blocked, unless #44445 takes enough damage to break its perpetual motion, if possible).

C. I don't know of a third, but many more possibilities of a Magic Missile versus the perpetual Lightsaber and how to end it could very well exist.

Point? A Lightsaber, even at its infinite parrying potential, can only even then just barely equal ONE Magic Missile in its fight of Attack/Defense / Accuracy/Evasion. The only way to truly stop a Magic Missile is to, in real space, cover your entire self with no flanks in a bubble-shield of sort, so that if you are targeted, the shield will, logically, HAVE to be the on that takes the hit, because in the beginning, the spellcaster couldn't have targeted something like a Magic Missile inside of a sphere in the first place.

Which brings us to a topic of Magic Missile in direct contact with any material targeted. That is open to an infinite number of theories, materials, etcetera, but as of now, because we all know how good magic is against magic (fire versus fire, someone has to win scenario), the most effecient proven way to avoid getting your frail mage body hit by your own medicine is with an abjuration spell like the Shield Spell.

So, if absolutely EVERYTHING was working in the favor of #44445 and his own devices (perpetual motion, ONE Missile), which is highly unlikely, it can still only hope to be at an eternal stalemate with what is a mere Level 1 spell. Otherwise, it's gettin' hit. Case closed.

[42PETUNIAS]

The only way a Lightsaber could truly block a Magic Missile would be to assume that perpetual motion exsits, and with great reflexes, too. Sure, one could discuss what could happen if a Magic Missile touched a Lightsaber, but unless the traget was the lightsaber itself and not the wielder, the Missile would never make contact.

Or, as has been discussed in this thread, the lightsaber could count as an extension of the jedi, and the missile could be stopped with the force, or absorbed into the lightsaber like force lightning. Reading the whole thread before posting can help you get some background on which questions and opinions have been raised, and that was pretty much the first.

[Yellow Mage]

Or, as has been discussed in this thread, the lightsaber could count as an extension of the jedi, and the missile could be stopped with the force, BLAH BLAH BLAHDITTY BLAH.

I REJECT your reality, and substitue my own! :p

[/mythbuster]

[Dino_Hunter]

I think it might depend upon the abilities of a jedi. The more advanced Jedi such as yoda, are incredably agile, but I'm still not sure if agility could out do magic.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

It all depends on your definition as magic. Is Magic the same as the force. Or is it of different power. Or is the Force just some super advanced Magic

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

Or is the Force just some super advanced Magic
Considering what advanced Jedi and advanced Wizards do on a regular basis, the Force is more like proto-magic.

It barely even deserves magic status.

Edit: And while I'm here...
the lightsaber could count as an extension of the jedi
Since we're talkin' DnD, a weapon is not an extention of the target. It is a separate, albeit attended, object which makes its own saves and, if attacked, requires an entirely separate procedure.

[Yellow Mage]

Some of them even have thier own personalities.

[Krylo]

You people are crazy.

A magic missile will not stop and dart around like a crazed chipmunk trying to evade a parry, or dart around behind someone.

Point of fact: Shield spell stops magic missile.

Shield spell is NOT a dome of energy.

Shield spell is a disc of energy which moves to intercept attacks.

The shield spell can move to intercept the magic missile without the magic missile dodging around the shield spell.

THUS, the magic missile can not perfectly evade parries.

FURTHER: Assuming that a magic missile would hover around darting at something from different angles until it found a way in, a perfect dome of force would not stop a magic missile either.

Assuming this version of the magic missile the magic projectile would fly forever around the protective dome, seeking, seeking, seeking an opening until the dome was dispelled or otherwise eliminated.

The magic missile is merely perfectly accurate. Much like Robin Hood, the quintessential perfect archer, will never miss his mark, so neither will the magic missile. HOWEVER, if someone were to interpose an object between the arrow/missile, and its target, despite its perfect accuracy, the attack would never come to fruition.

The magic missile never misses. This does not mean that it can not be stopped.

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

The magic missile never misses. This does not mean that it can not be stopped.
The weird thing is, though, that an ACTUAL TOWER SHIELD will not, in any sense, ever help you against a magic missile.

So it could resolve itself something like a ray-type spell, and hit the tower shield just fine -- only it would still damage the holder.

Which opens up a third possibility: that the magic missile strikes the lightsaber normally, and then still injures the wielder through some kind of shockwave.

There's another concievable option where armor and normal tower shields don't prevent the magic missiles' damage because the spell merely passes through them. Meaning it may hit the lightsaber, and then pass through unimpeded, since a lightsaber is not a wall of pure, refined force.

I mean, one could argue that a force push is such a wall, but one could also say that that whole area is more like the spell Telekinesis, which does not utilize pure, refined force.

Of course, this kinda' makes sense, since the DnD [Force] descriptor refers to the power behind a punch, not the punch itself. Or the 'equal and opposite' reaction of a wall, but not the wall itself. Everything a lightsaber has ever deflected has some physical component -- [Force] in DnD has no physical component; it's not even 'energy'... at least, not in the photon sense. Whereas things like Fireball and Lightning Bolt pretty explicitly are.

[DeviousToast]

Of course, this kinda' makes sense, since the DnD [Force] descriptor refers to the power behind a punch, not the punch itself. Or the 'equal and opposite' reaction of a wall, but not the wall itself. Everything a lightsaber has ever deflected has some physical component -- [Force] in DnD has no physical component; it's not even 'energy'... at least, not in the photon sense. Whereas things like Fireball and Lightning Bolt pretty explicitly are.

So what about a magic missile actually causes damage? Because from my reading of that, Kneumatic, the missile wouldn't have any way to interact with the world. If it is pure force, with no physical component... then what is causing damage? If it can pass through tower shields and armor unharmed, hitting the target for however many d4 of damage, why are they things it passes through not damaged as well?

Also, there are some rules about tower shield used where it gives cover, yes? IIRC you have to see what you're magic missiling, even if you're looking through a keyhole or using a "see through walls" spell, you still have to have visual contact. So a tower shield could be of some use, if you used it as a cower shield.

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

So what about a magic missile actually causes damage? Because from my reading of that, Kneumatic, the missile wouldn't have any way to interact with the world. If it is pure force, with no physical component... then what is causing damage? If it can pass through tower shields and armor unharmed, hitting the target for however many d4 of damage, why are they things it passes through not damaged as well?
Magic.

Also, there are some rules about tower shield used where it gives cover, yes? IIRC you have to see what you're magic missiling, even if you're looking through a keyhole or using a "see through walls" spell, you still have to have visual contact. So a tower shield could be of some use, if you used it as a cower shield.
I feel this is kinda' a weak point, since total cover only helps in this case because you break line of effect, so the tower shield is performing no better job than a giant piece of paper.

Edit: To clarify, it seems more an impediment to actually casting the spell, rather than the spells own follow through.

[DeviousToast]

If you're defining the damage as "magic" then why give it a subtype at all? [Force] just seems, for the most part, kind of a cop-out damage type that indicates the magic will follow certain rules, but not really.

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

If you're defining the damage as "magic" then why give it a subtype at all? [Force] just seems, for the most part, kind of a cop-out damage type that indicates the magic will follow certain rules, but not really.
It's not really 'Magic' damage, the point is, though, it only works through the application of magic.

If I may make myself the biggest fucking nerd in the thread:
Of all the energies summoned or shaped by magic, force is perhaps the most pure. No analog for this power exists in the physical world; it comes into being only through the medium of spells[...]
Which is to say, that [Force] really describes what it's doing. Spells that utilize [Force] create only the force of the thing, only the effect, without the physical source. A push with no pushing device, a wall with no wall, a punch with no fist. Effect without energy. That's really the point of the thing.

This is further indicated by if you are Ethereal, you exist on a coterminous plane -- same place, same form, just outside the bounds of the physical universe. The force applied by [Force] effects are also coterminous, even though no physical form can be. Which is to say, the effects cross the bounds of things that physical objects cannot, effectively illustrating that they're not the product of any physical source.

Though, I suppose it is the magic most like 'force of will', changing the universe in some way based on what you want, without any real outside intercession. So, maybe it is a 'cop-out' damage type, as you say, but it's magic, it doesn't really have to agree with physics. I don't know, though, I didn't design it, I'm just showing you the rules as they are.

[Mirai Gen]

Moral of the story: A wizard did it.

To elaborate: Honestly, Magic and the Force might as well be one in the same. The Force is a religious power that people can tap in to and blamed/used whenever things go wrong/right. Magic is more or less the same.

I'm completely positive the two systems can work together. Lightsaber or no, a magic missile can be deflected by a jedi. Force Push seems like a perfectly acceptable alternative to Shield.

[Dragonsbane]

Except that Force Push is instant, not a buff, and works more slowly than would probably be necessary to halt the missiles. The only Jedi I can recall ever doing anything like that would be Darth Vader blocking blasterfire with his palm.

[Rhino Man]

My understanding of the magic missile spell is that it (or they as it may end up being) are keyed to the target so as to never miss unless absorbed. In this case, YES a jedi could conceviably deflect a magic missile with his/her lightsaber but by the same token, this does not neccisarily remove the threat. This deflection may well only cause the missile itself to change direction temporarily.

if my understanding of magic missile is correct, the only way for a jedi to remove the threat of magic missile would be for him/her to use force drain or a similar power on the missile itself, draining or depleting the missile's "force".

EDIT: in fact, it occurs to me that the spell description explains that you fire missiles of FORCE at your target. if you take this how I currently am, then force drain or something similar WOULD work on it.

[Tydeus]

EDIT: in fact, it occurs to me that the spell description explains that you fire missiles of FORCE at your target. if you take this how I currently am, then force drain or something similar WOULD work on it.

Interesting theory -- no one's yet mentioned power-absorption. In this case, it seems Sith would be predisposed to have the advantage over Jedi; i.e., Jedi, being inherently weaksauce, and terrified of the Dark Side would be untrained in the ability to Force Drain, and thus unable to absorb the Magic Missile's meta-energy. So, no, a Jedi can't block a Magic Missile, but a Sith can. This of course assumes we accept that [Force] is different from the Force, and therefore a Force Push/lightsaber's Force component (when wielded by a Jedi) would fail to block Magic Missile.

However, I am unconvinced of Kneumatic's assertions on this point. Ex: Episode IV, in which Obi-Wan senses a "disturbance in the force" when Alderaan is destroyed. Seemingly, he senses this simultaneous with the event, thus Force is FTL, and thus not strictly energy as defined by the limits of the physical universe as currently understood. Also consider Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin speaking to Luke after their deaths, in their hologram-looking spirit forms. Arguably, then, the Force is also interdimensional, similar to [Force] and then also applicable to anything in the Ethereal plane, and similarly able to deflect as an equal and opposite [Force] any Magic Missile.

Also, Bao-Dur FTW. Anyone who tried to use magic against him would have to contend with the fact that he would disprove the existence of their powers before they've even finished thinking about casting a spell. Then, ripped from what was, in retrospect, little more than a drug-induced fantasy in which they thought they had magic powers (Bao-Dur's force of reason essentially retconning the universe), Bao-Dur's opponent (read: victim) is defenseless before his ability to make people implode.

[Gascmark de Leone]

There's something wrong with this picture. Maybe it's the strange, Star Wars-D&D cross over. Maybe it's not.

[Mirai Gen]

Maybe it's the fact that you necromanced a 3-week old thread?

[Lord_Badger]

well since it never misses, couldnt it just....you know, swing back around and come at the jedi again if he deflected it?

[Krylo]

Then we come back to the problem of things like the shield spell blocking it completely. Why wouldn't it bounce off that and swing back around as well?

[Azisien]

And doesn't Spell Resistance block it? I thought it used to, not sure about 3.5.

[Krylo]

Just out of curiosity, does it actually say that shields and what not don't have any use, or are there just no rules for blocking? Like, I think fireball spells allow a reflex save, but I don't think there's actually a rule stating that shields can or can not be used to block a fireball (partially, obviously). Or a lightning bolt. Or whatever else.