D&D 3.0: Beat people up and take their stuff in *style*

[Thinkmeat]

Since the d20 char twinks thread confused me (Thri-Keen? wtf?), I've put this here. Every once and a while, I'll post a surly and unfriendly combo or character build--most of them work in 3.5, but it's focused on 3.0, because 3.0 is better than 3.5 in almost every way humanly possible. But I digress.

Now, when I play 3.0, I almost always use modified rules. For example, Heal and Harm have 1 full round casting time and sport will saves for half. Death spells (including poly. other) give the target a +10 on their save if the caster has equal the target's HD or less. Hold spells grant a second save if the held critter is attacked, and that save is at the +10 deathspell save bonus. Etc. So if you're looking for lame reaper wizards sporting scythes and a wicked save, don't bother--I'm sure everyone knows how to do that already anyway (:

Because I don't have much time left, I'm gonna go with a simple one: The Nuke Druid. This focuses around the use of the feat Power Critical and it gets support from the various damage-based metamagic feats available. See where this is going? It's not fair, is it? Basically, whip out your Fire Seeds spell, use your empower/maximize (it's personal taste... you'll either empower the spell and use the max rod, or vise versa) greater metamagic rod, employ power critical, and put on your radiation goggles. It is also highly recommended, though not required, to pick up Elemental Substitution: Sonic.

3.0 damage calculation at 20th level (3.5 mileage may vary, though it's probably still potent):

Spell damage: 20d8max + 10d8, or 205 ave, no save
Critical damage: 40d8max + 20d8, or 410 ave, no save

Sure, you can only do it once a day, but save it for that big fight and you'll see why it's grand. The best part is, it requires very little investment. You don't have to make a one-trick pony.

Last, but not least: Today's reason why 3.5 ed sucks.

A 7th level wizard can expect 12d6 damage (no save) with empowered Searing Ray.

"Man I hate people." - Maddox

[Neverwhere]

yes, 3.5 sucks... although they finally made rangers worth playing... but Bards still blow :p

[Kieran Dineer]

My group plays "3.25". We take the stuff we like from 3.5 (like the Ranger stuff), and throw away the crap that we don't want (which is a lot).

[Neverwhere]

we did that too :p

[Neverwhere]

oh... and a thri-keen is a race

[Metacide]

The 'Nuke Druid' Sounds Like an interesting idea, but 410 damage once a day at level 20 is just pathetic. If you use a few templates, feral and insectoid, on top of a strong race, like minotaur, who uses 4 cleavers, combined with feats that add to damage, inititiative, and AC, while taking away from 'to hit.' With feats and magic that increase your chance of a critical, you have a characteer that can do lots of damage. Basically at level 15 (15 effectively, 10 after the level hits) you can do about 500+ damage each round.

[Thinkmeat]

The 'Nuke Druid' Sounds Like an interesting idea, but 410 damage once a day at level 20 is just pathetic.

You are remembering that this is before haste, right? That the 410 damage is for just one spell? Good. Remember, 1/day isn't staying power, but then again you hardly have to spend anything to *get* that one/day, and Fire Seeds is still a badass spell without power critical.

If you use a few templates, feral and insectoid, on top of a strong race, like minotaur, who uses 4 cleavers

Yes, I'll grant that if you cheat like a madman, you can do lots of damage with a fighter. Come on now--if you use multiple templates on top of playing a monster? That's like saying you could do more damage if you had a +20 Sword of $Texas. I'm not saying nobody can disagree with me, but... day-amn, dude. 410 ave damage from a single spell is not pathetic if you abstain from giving your characters +300 Death Laser Superswords, or from allowing them to play Feral Insectoid Minotaurs.

"Shoot em' in the back now / What they want, I don't know" - Rob Zombie (cover; Blitzkreig Bop)

[Metacide]

if you're going to do something do it right. The only real magic you need is in the weapons, +1 keen

[Neverwhere]

nah, just keen. Since keen counts as an enchantment, it cuts through dmg reduction.

[Metacide]

as i understand it, you had to have an enchantment put on an item before you could add peripheal enchantments. i.e. you have to have a plus before you add keen. Maybe that is just a house rule tho.

[Thinkmeat]

as i understand it, you had to have an enchantment put on an item before you could add peripheal enchantments. i.e. you have to have a plus before you add keen. Maybe that is just a house rule tho.

Yeah, meta's got the right of it here.

if you're going to do something do it right.

Come on. Picture a party. Let's say human wizard, dwarven cleric, dwarven fighter, halfling rogue. Then add an insectoid feral minotaur next to them. Which one of these things is not like the other ones? ;)

"I'm hit! I'm hit!" - Westwood Studios (In Trouble)

[Kieran Dineer]

Thri-kreen are the coolest race, IMO. I love them to death, ever since I started playing in a 2nd Edition Dark Sun campaign. Even got the Thri-kreen of Athas book for it, which tells of the different species of Thri-kreen, as well as just about everything else about them. Even came with a spiffy poster.

[Muffin Mage]

I've got a wizard somewhere, who, in addition to being a rank 5 deity, has about 47 levels. Our DM lets us alter epic spells as we cast them, and I've made one where I explode, and deal a substantial number of d6s. Not only that, but I have a bunch of spiffy feats that give me bonus damage.

In that campaign, we had a whole slew of fighters who did absurdly high amounts of damage. Six or seven hundred a round, each. Not including our twinked-out druid, who had managed to convince our DM to give him a suit of armor that prevents half of all damage he takes. And he was a geomancer. And a rank 7 deity. Beat that, punks!

Thri-kreen are teh leetness.

[VeritasHertz]

rank 7 deity, level 47 druid/geomancer with DR half-of-what-you-deal... fair enough. Your DM is dumber than cat shit though. For example, if your DM and a pile of cat shit were to take the SATs the pile of cat shit would have the advantage of being unable to circle answers. How do you convince a DM that you deserve the ability to negate hald of all damage you take? If I were forced to DM that party I would simply drop that druid into a pocket plane inhabited soley by disenchanters to fix this heinous crime against common sense.

[Muffin Mage]

It was an artifact, undisenchantable. And it also made him into a treant, and gave him insane magic boosting stuff.

[Thinkmeat]

rank 7 deity, level 47 druid/geomancer with DR half-of-what-you-deal... fair enough. Your DM is dumber than cat shit though. For example, if your DM and a pile of cat shit were to take the SATs the pile of cat shit would have the advantage of being unable to circle answers. How do you convince a DM that you deserve the ability to negate hald of all damage you take? If I were forced to DM that party I would simply drop that druid into a pocket plane inhabited soley by disenchanters to fix this heinous crime against common sense.

YES!

You deserve an award for that. There must be a line of 'fair play' drawn somewhere. There shall be no points awarded for +500 Cloaks of Resistance, but instead a reward exists for legally obtaining a 32 AC at level 7 with standard money value. Take pride in what you can do by being clever with what you have, not in what you're given.

"...she beast" - Rob Cordery (referring to Rosie O'Donnel)

Hell, you're gonna get an award for that. *fires up MSPaint*

Here we go:

For outstanding acheivment in the field of thinking, VeritasHertz is awarded this 100/100 pixel paint avatar award:

[Kieran Dineer]

What's the fun of playing if you're a god?

[DungeonMaster+5+5]

Well, 3.0 and 3.5 get a thumbs up from me completely based on the removal of the sanity twisting THAC0 rules. But it does feel like WotC shaped the rules towards a slash 'n swag style of gaming, just means more work from the DMs

[VeritasHertz]

I'm honored Thinkmeat, I'll keep the image in a file on my computer close to the heart of its hard drive. I am usually the DM in my little troupe of D&D minded individuals and I have played entertaining twinkathon games. However, there is a 'fine line', as Thinkmeat suggested, and feral insectoid minotaurs gets to the point of insanity (almost as bad as the half-dragon half-fiend half-celestial black pudding that was immune to every energy type and had SR 25, plus split in half when attacked with melee weapons).
In my games, if it doesn't make sense, I don't allow it.
And yes, DM+5+5, we all remember the horrors of ThAC0... shiver, but I'm tired and incoherrant so I'm going to bed.

[Metacide]

[QUOTE=Thinkmeat]
Come on. Picture a party. Let's say human wizard, dwarven cleric, dwarven fighter, halfling rogue. Then add an insectoid feral minotaur next to them. Which one of these things is not like the other ones? ;)

first of all why would u want ot be such pansy races as a dwarf or a halfling? pick something out of the mythic races book atleast, for me i get most of my races from Savage Species (which also has the templates) also by the time you are the appropriate level for the I F Minotaur to do real damage, if the other members of the party can't contibute, they should make better characters.

[Thinkmeat]

first of all why would u want ot be such pansy races as a dwarf or a halfling? ///// if the other members of the party can't contibute, they should make better characters.

I think you might be missing the point. What if I released an addon for chess that would replace all the pawns with Feral Insectoid DeathPawns that can move 18 squares forward and had the special power to make their opponents cry? Assume the Chess Balance People are hit by a bus and approve my addition to the game.

While the player who makes use of the Feral Insectoid DeathPawns will certainly be more effective, is the game more fun for him, will people want to play with him in a friendly setting, and is he better at chess? The answer is no.

"This is a liar liar pants on fire situation." - Lewis Black

[Whitemage]

I wouldn't call dwarves or halflings "wussy". Just as every class has something to offer, so does every race.

[Kieran Dineer]

Plus, they don't take as long to level like Thri-kreen and all those other high ECL races.

[Dante]

You will learn the true power of mortals... Tremble, templates and despair... BM has come to your world!

Let's start with a Sun Elf with Maxed Intelligence. Sun-Elf is a sub-race of elves that gives +2 INT, -2 CON, for a starting total of 20INT.

5 INT from levels and 5 INT from the tome gives you 30.

Then cast Fox's Cunning on yourself (from a scroll) with 7 Empowers on it and an extra Empower from an Empower Rod until you get a MAX result. This will give you 5x (4+1) extra INT as an enhancement bonus, giving a grand total of 55 INT, or a +22 INT mod.

Character build is Wizard 5/Archmage5/Incantatrix 10. Incantatrix gives the Improved Metamagic ability, which functions as in the Epic Level hand book (It is *not* an epic feat, btw... go read Magic of Faerun and check for yourselves)

Take the feats Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (two schools), Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Chain Spell and Twin Spell.

Go and somehow get three Thayvian tattoos which add +1 each to caster level (they should be in Magic of Faerun).

Now go and cast a Chained Twin Disintegrate with a DC of 51 (+4 from Imp Spell Focus, +6 from the full Spell Power tree, +22 from INT, 10 base and +9 for being a 9th level spell). That gives us... 45 (Caster level of 23 x2, -1 because the first disintegrat must hit the same fool twice) dead enemies every round regardless of power. (even the Tarrasque can only make the save 15% of the time). He has an effective caster level of 27 for breaking SR, which basically means he needs a 5 or more to beat a level 20 l33t drow's SR. Casting this twice on a turn (with haste) results in 90 dragons biting the dust, which is almost five platoon's worth.

And as long as you have scrolls of Twin Disintegrate and Rods of Chaining, you can do this all day. Only epic characters can get around this effectively.

Can anyone else do that?

[Metacide]

in a chess game u are facing equal opponents, in D&D when u can do as much damage as a feral insectoid minotaur is capable of doing you fight things taht are 5 or 6 CRs above you.

Dante that is an awesome idea. I will have to look into the details of that and see if i can get it done. :)

[Dante]

in a chess game u are facing equal opponents, in D&D when u can do as much damage as a feral insectoid minotaur is capable of doing you fight things taht are 5 or 6 CRs above you.

Dante that is an awesome idea. I will have to look into the details of that and see if i can get it done. :)

Trust me, it can be done. My friend and I were once rabid powergamers and came up with this when we were bored.

[Thinkmeat]

in a chess game u are facing equal opponents, in D&D when u can do as much damage as a feral insectoid minotaur is capable of doing you fight things taht are 5 or 6 CRs above you.

My chess analogy wasn't perfect--the 'opponent' in the chess game was your other party members. Whoever 'won the game' would be the character who was most effective / did the most damage. My point was that, while you would win every time with Mr. Feral Insectoid Minotaur, it means no more than if you win a game of Red Alert 2 by using the president ifv trainer.

Trust me, it can be done. My friend and I were once rabid powergamers and came up with this when we were bored.

Hmm.. what if you replaced Disintigrate with Polymorph other, and drop the twin spell? You can have that combo up and swinging by spell level 8, though you'll hit fewer targets. Then you can always switch to disintigrate later. Only problem is when you start fighting stuff from the Epic handbook, where everything and it's brother is immune to both spells. Then you'd probably just be best off abusing Flame Arrow's lack of a damage cap (mm... many times empowered, and energy-substituted to sonic damage. Tastes like ownage).

"Try, but you can't bring me down" - H2O (Everready)

[Metacide]

Think, why would i want to use my awesome damage dealling ability against my party members? The Feral Insectoid Minotaur usually has a VERY low intellignec score, though we decided that it must atleast be 8 by the time you are done adding the minuses to it. A well made psion could easily defeat my feral insectoid minotaur. Ectoplasmic coccoon would make it pretty helpless.

[Thinkmeat]

So could a wizard using (3.5) multi-empowered rays of enfeeblement or (3.0) grease, but methinks you've missed the point. You are not attacking your party members, you're still attacking the monters.

Let's say you're grouped with a dwarven fighter. The dorf attacks the monster and does some damage. You attack and do lots more. You "win" the chess game--you've been more effective. However, to do so, you had to play a feral insectoid minotaur.

What if there was a 'Power ranger' template, that had a +1 level adjustment, made your character look really stupid and rediculous (like a power ranger), but had a +10 to all stats? Let's say it was released in a legitimate book... the Arms and Equipment guide, because that's an overpowered piece of crap so it will fit right in.

Would you take the powerranger template? The answer is yes. Yes you would, and be proud of your newfound might too.

And that, I'm saying, is a Bad Thing.

"Hey, hey, do the zombie stomp" - Rob Zombie & Ozzy Osbourne

[ElseaAskew]

oh this is a fun thread!

i'm a dm and run a super loose game.
for instance, i do crits as: you rolled a 20, it's a crit!
threats suck, more work for me!

but to balance that out, i play god alot.

also for instance, i'll just roll the dice and if it's under 10, someone trips and lands on whatever weapon they're carying.

or decide that a spell they want to use doesn't work.


I think alot of this stuff has to do with what your dm is like. if it's elf-fighter dwarf-sorcerer(the most fun to rp by the way) and a half/fiendish dire bugbear vampire-barbarian, i say you throw a few thousand curveballs to the goblin of darkness.

let the babys have their bottles, just fill them with hemlock!

[Metacide]

this is just semantics but +10 to all stats is way more than just a one level hit.
And since you have taken so many level hits, you have way fewer hitpoints, which means that if you did go up against a decent wizard or psion you would stand little chance against their spells. You would die pretty easily. The trick is not to do damage but to survive. If dealling damage is something that will help you survive, i say the more the merrier. For the record, i have never actually been this character, i just reasoned out that you could make it.

[Dante]

Hmm.. what if you replaced Disintigrate with Polymorph other, and drop the twin spell? You can have that combo up and swinging by spell level 8, though you'll hit fewer targets. Then you can always switch to disintigrate later. Only problem is when you start fighting stuff from the Epic handbook, where everything and it's brother is immune to both spells. Then you'd probably just be best off abusing Flame Arrow's lack of a damage cap (mm... many times empowered, and energy-substituted to sonic damage. Tastes like ownage).


Flame arrow was originally the Lame mage's weapon of choice... but due to various erratas and changes we went from 840 hp per spell to a mere 70d6. CHain polymorph isn't a bad idea, though. You might also want to try a mega-empowered Enervation (no save, no way to resist apart from PfNE)

As for Epic monsters... yes, incredibly annoying. Ironically, the fighter is the weapon of choice here. Nothing is immune to three feet of cold steel... unless they're a god or something.

I came up with a level 20 iaijutsu master build who could deal somewhere in the region of 1000+ per round. And now that there is a Void Incarnate PrC that makes your opponent count as flat-footed for resolving all hits, that's 1000 per round, every round. Using a brilliant energy weapon, you can shear through all forms of AC short of deflection, luck and divine bonuses, and considering that the +90 skill mod for the Iaijutsu attack gives +18(1d6 + Cha mod, somewhere in the early 20s) and you can modify it with a friendly mage's Eagle's Splendor...

And this is just L20.

[Mikorlias Zard]

Incidentally, what -exactly- do you 3.5 haters have against it?

Give ALL reasons, or as many as you can think of.

Mikorlias Zard

(BTW: I usually play Mikorlias as a Nardrii (personally created Half-Elf variant race) Sentinel (NG Paladin from Dragon mag)).

[Metacide]

The biggest reason is because im set in my ways, and i dont want to learn these new fangled rules. Some of our house rules are like 3.5, but if we changed all the way to 3.5 we would have to give up some of our other house rules. That is the biggest reason for it :)

[Neverwhere]

ok.. i kinda tuned out of this thread, and on my quick run over i noticed one disturbing thing... Did someone say who would want to be a dwarf?! WTF are you thinking? Dwarves are, in my non-bias opinion, one of the best standard races available. If your playing a non power-group (which, races out of Savage Species and/or MM/MM2 are) you have to be a standard race. Therefore, dwarves are a competely logical choice. Not to mention they can drink like a mofo. Just make the dwarf (at a +1 level adjustment) an ice-paragensi and give him another +4 to con. Whammo, 24 in con. At level 1. Wow.

[Dante]

Incidentally, what -exactly- do you 3.5 haters have against it?

Give ALL reasons, or as many as you can think of.

Mikorlias Zard

(BTW: I usually play Mikorlias as a Nardrii (personally created Half-Elf variant race) Sentinel (NG Paladin from Dragon mag)).

I have a friend who hates it because the rules changes interfere with his powergaming, but I know others who dislike it because the mages have been screwed into near worthlessness... I mean, 24d6 damage at 17th level per round for a 9th level slot? And it still allows a save (which most rogues will make even if not powergamed) Any fighter worth his salt can do that much damage in a full four attacks, or in ONE attack with good enough stats/equipment/abilities.

[Metacide]

24 con at level one is impressive, but i still hate dwarves. they may work for others but i just dont like them. :P

[Thinkmeat]

Incidentally, what -exactly- do you 3.5 haters have against it?

Start a new thread--I can go for HOURS about why 3.5 sucks fish nuts (:

this is just semantics but +10 to all stats is way more than just a one level hit.

You wouldn't be playing a feral insectoid minotaur if it wasn't overpowered (:

"You deny me freshmaker!?!?" - Happy Noodle Boy

[Metacide]

You wouldn't be playing a feral insectoid minotaur if it wasn't overpowered (:


i never said it wasnt over powered. I just said you could make one and it would do a lot of damage.

[ElseaAskew]

The best race that i openly let my players be is the kobold. just because it sucks, i let them have an extra level. i mean, if you're a kobold, it's a devil to walk around in the daytime! much less fight. but they are good fun to rp with. but damn! dwarves are great!
24 con at level one is impressive, but i still hate dwarves. they may work for others but i just dont like them. :P
then play an elf!! that makes rping fun when you in reality hate a race! (honestly, not that i'm trying to rag on you. all in good fun :D )