Ascension - The New Advertisement on the Main Page

[Sonata]

Not sure if this has been noticed already or not, but I thought I'd bring it up here... since it kind of concerns us rabid Final Fantasy fans and all, and since the link IS on the main page of this site.

You've all probably seen the new advertisements that Brian has put up on the site by now - not sure if anyone has really clicked on them at all or not, but, just for the hell of it, I do. I recently clicked on the Ascension ad to find out what it was all about.

Turns out it's a book that stays true to the typical sci-fi plot - "order" versus "chaos" and lots of revolution and death going on. Standard fun, really. Always one for a good read, I went into the Characters section for a closer look... I encourage everyone else to do the same. When you do, you'll find something, or somethings, of peculiar note about the characters. About 50% of them share a name with a Squaresoft character.

I counted about five or six Squaresoft references in the two character pages alone. Two or three I could understand, but five? Take a look: Kain not included, since that's a biblical reference (though it's supposed to be spelled "Cain"), there's, count 'em, five references: Chere, Cyan, Atma, Cecil, and Baron. It was the Cecil born in Baron that really takes the cake for me - it's such an obvious Final Fantasy IV reference that I couldn't help but balk.

Now, I'm not sure if there's enough material here for Squaresoft to file a lawsuit, and, even if there was, I'm not sure that I, were I Squaresoft, would actually sue the author. Still, I find the man pushing the borders of the Fair Use Clause that 8-bit runs itself under - the man is selling another's content for the sake of turning a profit.

That seems to me to be more than a little illegal.

Now, it's entirely possible that I'm wrong, and that all of these names are somehow linked together in a way non-Squaresoft-ish. For all I know, Cecil could be some Norse or Gaelic Knight who actually DID herald from the Kingdom of Baron. But I ran a check on google, which seems to know everything, and couldn't find a thing.

Oh, yeah - I decided to throw this into the discussion forum to see if anyone wants to defend the author, though I don't believe it's likely. Please try to be civil. ^o^

EDIT: Just realized that I quite accidentally put this in the 8-bit strip forum. Apologies.

[Ghost Who Walks]

I checked that out by chance myself, I'm always checking out possible publishers, and I noticed a few Square references (Now you know that you aren't crazy). The first one that caught my eye was in the “passages” section when it talked about a woman from the town of Truce. Truce was the name of the main town in the year 1000 from Crono Trigger (another Square game!).

[Kurosen]

So no one can use the name "Luke" because it was in Star Wars?

[01d55]

Well, no, but putting Luke, Leia, and Han in the same book is pushing things.

[Ghost Who Walks]

So no one can use the name "Luke" because it was in Star Wars?
I never insinuated that anything was wrong with it. In fact, I love the references. The final fantasy games are, in my humble opinion, the defining works of art of their genre. Yes, art. They passed through the bonds of video games to address advanced issues such as suicide, teenage pregnancy, pain, love, love loss, illegitimate children, etc etc in a mature and beautiful manner. And don't get me started on the music scores. I believe that Square has made games of such high quality that they deserve to be referenced in literature the same as an epic poem or anything else (as long as it isn't plagiarism).
Rant over.

[Dauntilus]

I can seem to see it. must be my dang pop-up killer. that thing is more useless than helpful, but my dad locks it with a password and I'm powerless without an administrator account.
Could someone post a link to it?

[Ghost Who Walks]

http://www.kaintwilight.hostrocket.com/

[Sonata]

Sure, no problem with that, Ghost, except that Square (Square-Enix, now) is a company that created these icons, and we have to respect that. Unlike the Ancient Greeks, Square-Enix is still around, and, thus, ought to be attributed for it's creations.

I'm not saying that the author's use of these names is in itself bad - I'm saying that the fact that he's given no credit to Squaresoft anywhere on his site or, apparently, in his book is somewhat low.

[Ghost Who Walks]

But is it wrong to draw inspiration and to keep a few of the original names as a tribute? Case in point "A Prayer for Owen Meany" using Hester Prynn as a character.

[Sonata]

I can't say I've read it... but the author ought to give Hawthorne due credit for the inspiration.

[Kurosen]

I just don't see what the problem is. So he uses some names used in Square games. Who cares? My comic goes way further than that and it doesn't bug the big S-E.

[Ranson]

I think the point they're making is that your work falls under parody, while this book, regardless of what it actually is (I can't comment, having only glanced at the site) has a few elements that smell of a rip-off. You credit S-E for the characters, whereas this author seems to be lifting details(at least names and places) directly from that source without crediting or, likely, permission. Again, having not read the book, I can't comment on the veracity of this. I'm just trying to clarify the points I'm seeing.

[Starbuck_II]

That is because S-E does'nt want to upset Black Mage, they fear him :)
It looks pretty Interesting, Kain seems to be like the "bad" guy seem, while Cecil again is on the "good" guy team.
Kain isn't a Dragoon but a Dark Knight (like he was suppose to be in FF4 but chose his Father's path instead. Cecil is a White mage, but oh well he still seems cool.
Sounds like a interesting book.

[Sonata]

Not only that, Kurosen, but you aren't using your comic to turn a mandatory buck. At most, you might ask for the occasional donation, right? That doesn't seem to be the case with Branford - he's put a price on his work. It'd be somewhat akin to someone taking bits and pieces of your comic, something that you worked for, and putting them in a book and selling them without telling you.

I dunno, if I were you, I'd be a little ticked.

[Ghost Who Walks]

Honestly,
Authors use the names of characters and places from other sources all the time. It may be right, it may be wrong, but it is common. Most do it so that readers will have an extra angle of insight into the development of the book and its characters. Branford can deny the connection all he wants, just like when Pink Flloyd says that Dark Side of the Moon doesn't line up with the Wizard of Oz, and there is really nothing we could do other than not read his book.
...
I confused myself. I need to stop talking before I make a fool of myself.

[#@®®¡$]

C'mon, RPG World has A LOT of S-E references:
- The "Hero" is clearly Cloud.
- You can change the names of the characters
- Dragobo = Chocobo
- Howard = Moogle

And I'm too lazy for the anothers. The fact is that RPG World sells its book and S-E doesn't cares. Or maybe S-E can't do anything. Or maybe they like it. Or maybe they are going to sue them tomorrow. Or maybe I should stop typing. Or maybe you should stop reading.

[Kain S. Branford]

Well, well, this is interesting...

I do have a bit of a retort for all of this listed in the form of a slight rant on my page's News section. Be assured, I'm not really surprised by all this. I find it a bit amusing, actually. For those of you who have future concerns--which there will doubtlessly be some--let me know and I might accomidate you.

[Ghost Who Walks]

Well, well, this is interesting...

I do have a bit of a retort for all of this listed in the form of a slight rant on my page's News section. Be assured, I'm not really surprised by all this. I find it a bit amusing, actually. For those of you who have future concerns--which there will doubtlessly be some--let me know and I might accomidate you.
Good retort. That's exactly what I've been trying to say, but I couldn't do it as well for having no knowledge of you, your writing style or your book. I encourage everyone reading this to support struggling writers like Mr. Branford- and buy Brian's book when it comes out- and other writers that may choose to advertise on nuklearpower...

[Ranson]

Yes, a very good response.

And, as always, the only bad publicity is no publicity. Good luck with the book, and I hope it does well. You're farther along than most people who try their hand, and that's the best way to succeed.

[MFD]

My guess is that Ascension is an unnofficial Final Fantasy. Just go with it. I'm pretty sure Kain Branford's a pseudonym, too. KAIN Highwind and Terra BRANFORD connecting his two favorite FFs pretty well.

[Kain S. Branford]

Well, in truth if you look at any name source you can find all sorts of connections. Ever hear of the Legacy of Kain series? And Branford? There's a town in my state called "Branford," as well as a small learning institute.

I can't fight there are some simularities, but the same could be said for a bulk of RPGs and fantasy based books. I wouldn't go saying this is an unofficial Final Fantasy because there's nothing final about the Age of the Twilgiht.

[Sonata]

Let me first say that the fact that you've posted in this thread, Brandford, is extremely cool. Props to you. Truth be told, I honestly feel like buying your book now, because I'm intrigued (and if that's supposed to be your marketing ploy, then shame on you... =P)

That said, I suppose I don't understand why you used the names to begin with - yes, there are very obvious references in just about every piece of literature ever written, but usually all come from a credited source. The fact of the matter is that you could have very easily used different names and saved yourself a lot of hassle (both here and, possibly, as I understand it, the Court).

EDIT: Read your "rant" (more like a well-spoken defense). I see your point, though I don't necessarily agree with it. Yet it seems to me that the slightest thing one can do when drawing inspiration is to give credit TO that inspiration. I dunno - maybe a "Special Thanks to Squaresoft" in your Dedication?

[Ghost Who Walks]

References in literature happen everywhere- to the extent that acknowledging what was referenced just jumbles things up and takes away from the story itself. One of my literary heroes, Tomas Cahill, wrote a brilliant essay about how every story told today has a plot that can be traced back to the ancient myths and legends. There are stories which would cause some of you, if they were written today, to demand that a works-cited page be added. The Incans have a story about a great flood that forced a man and his family and all of the animals onto the tallest mountain top. They were sad on that mountain and no one spoke. When the floods diminished, everyone had been quiet for so long that they spoke different languages. That is an obvious "rip-off" of the Bible, but the Incans never heard the Bible. Gilgamesh, FFV, was a hero stolen from the first epic poem we have on record. Many of the espers are either historical or religious figures. That god-awful movie Water World should have acknowledged FF3 for its "the world has been flooded" idea (this one is a stretch). I remember Bannon telling a story that is obviously a rip off of the Pandora's box myth. Mirthil? I'm pretty sure J.R.R. Tolkein used that phrase before the FF series. The Knights of Round... Materia? Several episodes of the Simpsons are rip offs of the Twilight Zone (all of the older Halloween episodes for example, the newer ones are horrible).
My English textbooks since middle school have successfully broken down every story into one of four categories: Man against Man, Man against Nature, Man against Society, or Man versus Himself. I've tried to think of another conflict for a story that won't bore the audience to tears, and I can't think of one (but I'd be interested to hear your theories). A good writer doesn't think up of a new type of conflict. They tell the same stories that have been told since humans have existed, but the better stories tell the same story in a new way, from a new perspective. No story you will ever read is original; it is just told differently. You may disagree, but when you break it down into its smallest elements, it is clear.
The logistics of referencing everything you write are too big because a good story is full of these kinds of allusions. The better stories hide them well; so when you finally recognize them (let's say, four months after reading it), you reach an intellectual high known as an epiphany. This epiphany can only be reached if you draw the conclusion yourself without having someone spoon-feed it to you.
Whew.
I can rant with the best of them.

[Mike McC]

Okay, 1) Atma isn't really a name in FF6. It's more of a bad translation of Ultima. Okay?

2) Its not as if he uses blatently obvious names, like Squall, or Tidus, or Cloud, or any other kinda water-related name Square seems so keen of. As he's stated, thay're all fairly common. These are more of a nod, a reference, perhaps a little 'members only' joke for FF Fans, but plagerism? I think basing a claim of plagerism off of some NAMES without actually reading the book is extremely harsh, and very presumptuous.

3) Kain S. Branford, I think once my income tax return comes in, I shall purchase a copy of your book, as it does indeed look quite groovy.

[Kain S. Branford]

Well, I'm glad all the concerns and bases have been covered. While there's still a looming debate overhead due to the premise and inspirational sources, I hope a good degree of you will give Age of the Twilight: Ascension a chance. I'm certainly flattered by those of you intending to check it out.

I'll be around the board for a while, so if anyone has future concerns having read the book, I'd be glad to answer them. I did advertise on NuklearPower for a reason, and that's simply because out of all the people who do read, most of you are most likely to appreciate this than any other reader. And hey, if you don't like it, think of it this way... your money and sour response will cast me into the pit that so many hack authors, and awful, AWFUL novel-to-movie adaptations have gone before. Well, that is if the dislike is unanimous... in which case, I'll pack my bags.

C'est la vie

[Hamelin]

That god-awful movie Water World should have acknowledged FF3 for its "the world has been flooded" idea (this one is a stretch).My American Studies Teacher Mr. Mead claims he wrote a better screenplay version of Waterworld, which was stolen from him when some people from Hollywood were visiting his college campus. About two years after the date he said this happened Waterworld came out...

[Sonata]

I suppose what I'm arguing, and will continue to argue, is that S-E deserves credit for the inspiration that they gave you, Branford. Now, I'm not, as Ghost seems to be stating, arguing that one should credit every source one uses for inspiration in the foreward of one's novel. Here's how I, personally, see it.

The difference between using, say, the name "Apollo" as opposed to "Cecil of Baron" is that "Apollo" is a part of Greek mythology, which is the heritage of the entire world as part of it's history, whereas "Cecil of Baron" was thought up by a company that still exists today. S-E, unlike the Ancient Romans and Greeks, hasn't bequeathed it's entire library of legends and characters to the world.

The same holds true for the Bible, and perhaps even Tolkien (as he essentially started the fantasy genre, though it existed in alternate form with the medieval romance). These works are part of the history of mankind, and are, thus, public domain. On the flip side, S-E's creations are private property, and, although no laws were broken as far as I can tell, rights were still at least mildly infringed upon.

[Kain S. Branford]

Actually, Sonata, I made a note of that recently on my F.A.Q.'s section on my website. While it may seem a bit of a diversion to answer a quesiton with a question, I'll try anyway. How exactly should I show credit for S-E for the inspiration I got from them? The Cecil Lightwind I have from the Quadra Order's Baron is, at best, a tribute, and if asked I'll say "yeah, got the inspiration from Final Fantasy 4." It also works into a point of my story I won't give out just yet.

The Baron in my story doesn't even remain with its name through the duration, the name changes as the plot changes. There's a point where S-E didn't go out of its way to inspire me, so I'm not going to go out of my way to credit them with a seperate page on my book. But like I said, if asked, I'll say "Final Fantasy 4, man... good sh*t."

I can understand your point-of-view, I did expect something like this after all. There is a bit of planning of it (yes, shame on me), but it's very difficult for a beginning author to catch the attention of potentials. And this is only my humble beginning.

[Sonata]

To answer your question, something like, "Special Thanks to Square-Enix for great games and greater inspiration," is not at all unheard of.

But I do see your point, though I don't agree with it.