Chrono Trigger DS: Something Positive To Say

[Mirai Gen]

So I picked it up, partly out of sheer curiosity but also cause it's still Chrono Trigger. I was curious.

I gotta say that the re-writing at early parts of the game is kind of a mixed bag. Lots of the important lines are still there (Marle: This...this can't be the way the world ends...) but then some of my favorite ones got changed. The exchange between Marle and Lucca, "You're a genius!" "Aint it the truth!" got completely redone, much to my dismay.

It works in other places though. Gato's rhymes got tweaked to be more...well, to actually rhyme. Some dialog seems to work a lot better too, but some of the changes are just bizarre.

The game is pretty awesome on DS though. It fits really well, and the altered menu is a godsend as it keeps the main screen uncluttered. I've been using the A button and ignoring the stylus, and it's pretty slick. Plus if you're a bigger fan of the old-school style, you can change it back to Classic mode. This works the same with the cutscenes too, surprisingly, which is probably why Frog cuts the mountain in half twice.

Some of the sound effects got redone, so far it's nothing but improvements. Sound is 100% unchanged. I haven't checked out any of the secondary modes.

So, though I haven't beaten the game or even gotten to Magus (I mean, the Fiendlord) the game's actually really smooth. If you're not nearly as much of a purist when it comes to the plot it's totally worth owning.

Also; comes with a free poster if you get the first printing. Mwahaha!

[Had'ohken]

They're still called Ozzie, Flea, and Slash...I think that counts for something. Some lines make more sense now, such as Azala telling Ayla to protect the planet instead of saying that they have no future.

Even if Frog doesn't talk in the thee and thou style, the Middle Ages characters DO speak in a style more representative of antiquated English, which is more fitting with the era.

[Ryong]

(I mean, the Fiendlord)

I don't see what's the big deal with "Fiendlord". Everyone seems to feel a need to bring it up whenever Magus is mentioned.

[Krylo]

Some lines make more sense now, such as Azala telling Ayla to protect the planet instead of saying that they have no future.I really think that made more sense the way it was originally. Why would he call down Lavos if he wanted the planet protected? Azala's motivation was to destroy the planet rather than allow the apes to have it. The statement that they have no future was his last gloating remark for what he had visited upon the planet.

Also: I'm totally not spoiler tagging a game that has been out for over thirteen years.

I don't see what's the big deal with "Fiendlord". Everyone seems to feel a need to bring it up whenever Magus is mentioned.

Mostly it just sounds stupid.

[Mirai Gen]

The reason behind Fiendlord was because they wanted to give Magus a title that meant "Lord of the Demihumans" and they went with 'fiend' instead of 'demihuman.' It's kind of dumb but it isn't that bad when you get down to it.

One thing I thought was interesting? Frog (except for his lack of accent, which I thought was neat) makes a bit more sense this time around. Playing it through on the DS clues me into the fact that he's always been a coward. That was what happened with Magus and Cyrus, in fact, his hesitation led him to inaction, which meant that he couldn't help Cyrus or run. Because he was such a wuss, Magus Frog-ified him.

Which is why it meant so much that he agreed to go with Crono in the first place. He's like, alright, I'm done cowering, time to get shit done.

I didn't catch that before and I've played this game like five times on SNES.

[Azisien]

I know I'm probably going to pick this up and not notice a single difference from my PSX version, since I believe I only time travelled once or twice before losing interest. But the DS seems like a good platform for this!

[Krylo]

One thing I thought was interesting? Frog (except for his lack of accent, which I thought was neat) makes a bit more sense this time around. Playing it through on the DS clues me into the fact that he's always been a coward. That was what happened with Magus and Cyrus, in fact, his hesitation led him to inaction, which meant that he couldn't help Cyrus or run. Because he was such a wuss, Magus Frog-ified him.

Which is why it meant so much that he agreed to go with Crono in the first place. He's like, alright, I'm done cowering, time to get shit done.

I didn't catch that before and I've played this game like five times on SNES.

You... don't really pay attention do you?

He refused to become a knight because he can't stand battle? He always hid behind Cyrus, despite Cyrus saying, straight up, he's the better swordsman? It was all pretty well spelled out that Frog... well, I'm not sure if 'coward' is the right word, but he simply was not a fighter. He lacked the conviction to risk his life or take the life of another.

Yes, it was totally clear in the SNES version, too.

[Mirai Gen]

He lacked the conviction to risk his life or take the life of another.
Well, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. How can he be such an amazing swordsman if he couldn't take someone's life? Plus when he and Cyrus are talking on the bridge, he says "I don't think I'd make the cut." It sounded less like cowardice and more like modesty or underestimating his own skill.

Also when he and Cyrus are fighting Ozzie and Magus, Glenn falls to his knees and says "I'm a goner..." I always interpreted that as him falling to his knees in pain from the battle, so why would he be in battle if he lacked conviction to fight in mortal combat? And why, if he's such a coward, is he always going around with Cyrus, a guy who's always going around adventuring?

The concept never really was clear and I didn't pick it up the first time. Of course I also first played this game when I was sixteen so maybe I just missed it and never noticed subsequent replays.

[Fifthfiend]

I don't see what's the big deal with

Cue nobody being surprised. Officially had it with your deliberate-obtuseness 'I just can't see why [thing that's been explained to you in like three consecutive threads]' trolling so knock it off. If you have that much trouble understanding things that everyone else on this forum seems able to figure out then go buff up your thinkin'-things muscles and try again.

How can he be such an amazing swordsman if he couldn't take someone's life?

The same way lots of people are good at lots of things without necessarily wanting to be coldblooded* murderers?


*pun lol

[Mirai Gen]

Okay point.

[Fifthfiend]

I mean I figure it's like every samurai anime ever where whichever apprentice is like super-badass with the wooden stick slappin-people sword and then his sensei hands him a forserious katana and goes okay you're such a badass, go fuckin' cut somebody, and the apprentice is like HOSHITS OMG!

There's generally that practical gap between training up a skill and then actually using that skill to cut pieces out of a dude who himself is trying to cut pieces out of you.

...which begs the question of how Crono just rolled up out to the fair one day and did a shrug to himself that says hey, I guess I'll wordlessly murder my way through legions of adversaries? But I guess that's just how Big C plays the game.

[bluestarultor]

I mean I figure it's like every samurai anime ever where whichever apprentice is like super-badass with the wooden stick slappin-people sword and then his sensei hands him a forserious katana and goes okay you're such a badass, go fuckin' cut somebody, and the apprentice is like HOSHITS OMG!

War is a nasty thing. People undergo extensive training to de-humanize the enemy and frankly themselves to help them not go batshit crazy from knowing they killed another human being. Even my Grandpa said he was told in WW2 that he should never look if he thought he'd shot someone.

And then you have the people who snap, or "don't come back the same," or have PTSD. Murder simply isn't a normal part of the human condition as we know it.

[Ryong]

Infraction

Well, geez, sorry, I just had seen the comic with everyone calling Magus "FIENDLORD!" and then Marle says "FRIENDLORD!".

...which begs the question of how Crono just rolled up out to the fair one day and did a shrug to himself that says hey, I guess I'll wordlessly murder my way through legions of adversaries? But I guess that's just how Big C plays the game.

Marle is even worse at it, then, because okay, she's supposed to be a tomboy but she's still a princess. You'd expect her to freak out about killing things but nope, she just goes around shooting arrows at stuff and freezing them to death while healing her friends. Lucca is a teenager mad scientist that uses fire and guns. I think the point doesn't work with her as much.

...All this just made me notice how much more uncaring Serge is, by killing baby dragons and their mother in the very start of the game to make a necklace. Weird how he has to kill so many to get three scales, too.

[Mirai Gen]

Naw Lucca's awesome cause she carries around grenades guns and a flamethrower. In the name of Science!

[Fifthfiend]

Well, geez, sorry, I just had seen the comic with everyone calling Magus "FIENDLORD!" and then Marle says "FRIENDLORD!".

Yeah plus you know, this thread where a bunch of people said why that thing annoyed them (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=32023) that I know you saw because you took time out of your day to insult half the people posting (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=856926&postcount=48) there.

I don't know what you think a warning for trolling means but it sure isn't "argue that you weren't trolling while continuing to troll." Enjoy oh let's call it three days off to contemplate that.

[Corel]

How far are you through the game Dante? Let us know when you (Or anybody else for that matter) get to the bonus content: I'm interested to hear what they've made for that. I've heard that it's a randomly generated dungeon or something along those lines?

How's the strong wind effect now? I remember that used to make my ears bleed profusely - it makes you wonder how/why they made such effects back in the day!

Edit: Also when you get to the Underwater Palace, give the Golem Twins my regards.

When I say regards, I mean double tech'n their ass.




DIE GOLEM TWINS DIE.

[POS Industries]

Yo, Fifth, I read through the entire thread and there are four people who briefly mention that they don't like Fiendlord because it sounds kinda silly and the entire rest of it is a debate over just how inappropriate Frog's dialect in the SNES version may or may not have been. Unless you mean "People don't like it because they don't" is an adequate explanation, I don't see what you're getting at.

[Fifthfiend]

Yo, Fifth, I read through the entire thread and there are four people who briefly mention that they don't like Fiendlord because it sounds kinda silly and the entire rest of it is a debate over just how inappropriate Frog's dialect in the SNES version may or may not have been. Unless you mean "People don't like it because they don't" is an adequate explanation, I don't see what you're getting at.

If people have a problem with a moderator action they need to post about it in the Forum Stuff forum or bug me about it via PM and I'll respond to it there; I'm not going to derail the rest of this thread to argue about it here.

[Mirai Gen]

One of my favorite things in CT is killing the Golem the first time you arrive at Zeal, and then Dalton uses his fire-hits-you attack that KOs you in one hit.

Sorta like beating Gades the first time in Lufia II.

I love having times when you're supposed to lose but you don't.

[BitVyper]

There's generally that practical gap between training up a skill and then actually using that skill to cut pieces out of a dude who himself is trying to cut pieces out of you.

Well, training does generally include sparring at the very least, as well as excersizes with live blades, and ones designed to give you a feel for cutting through things and make your cuts more efficient. Granted, it's still not the same as being in actual fights, but it's not too far off.

[Krylo]

It is, because in sparring you aren't trying to kill someone else.

That's the hard part. Actually taking a sword and driving it into another person with the intent to kill them.

Not the parrying, or the striking, or whatever other actual skill related thing. The taking another person's life. That's the big difference.

[BitVyper]

That's the hard part. Actually taking a sword and driving it into another person with the intent to kill them.

I don't know; I've never really thought that hard in a fight. Granted, I've never actually killed anyone, but in my personal experience, I don't think that barrier would be quite so difficult to overcome as you think, in the heat of the moment. Fear does tend to hold one back a bit, but it's usually more fear of getting hurt/hurting yourself.

All of that said; you're wrong about training not dealing with striking at a person. In swordsmanship, when you're new (at least in my experience and observations of others' experience), you tend to reflexively swing away from the person you're training with. I remember just about drawing an outline around my partner with my sword in my cut. This is something you have to overcome early not only because it's bad form, but because it actually makes it more likely that you'll strike the person you're practicing with.

Once you get all that stuff into muscle memory, it becomes pretty automatic after awhile. You might hesitate to get into the fight, but once you're fighting and you get that adrenalin, your reflexes tend to kick in faster than your morals. That's what training is all about, really. That doesn't mean everyone will be an aggressive fighter right out of the gate, of course.

Edit: Crono is fortunate in that his first few fights are with:

1. A robot who is designed not to kill you, but can take whatever punishment you dish out.

2. Imps. Possibly of the forest variety.

By the time he fought anything particularly threatening, he'd already had a chance to work out any issues he might have had (at least to the extent that they were holding him back).

Also: Even in Crono's time, the woods aren't particularly safe. It may be that he's encountered and slain monsters before the game ever started.

[Krylo]

All of that said; you're wrong about training not dealing with striking at a person. In swordsmanship, when you're new (at least in my experience and observations of others' experience), you tend to reflexively swing away from the person you're training with.

This is due to what I'm talking about. Well-adjusted human beings reflexively try not to hurt each other with objects designed to kill.

Think about it--if you were reflexively trying not to hit someone when it was safe to do so--would you really reflexively try to hit someone when it was no longer safe to do so?

It is easier for some than others to overcome that. Frog wasn't the type to easily overcome it.

[Kim]

I love Gamestop's description of the game.

If the physics depicted in TV and movies are correct, and we have no reason to doubt that, then messing with the time-space continuum always results in wacky adventures. Join Crono in this updated old-school favorite as he travels through time and space in order to go back to 1982 and throw a football over some mountains to win the state championship.

[Aeria]

You... don't really pay attention do you?

He refused to become a knight because he can't stand battle? He always hid behind Cyrus, despite Cyrus saying, straight up, he's the better swordsman? It was all pretty well spelled out that Frog... well, I'm not sure if 'coward' is the right word, but he simply was not a fighter. He lacked the conviction to risk his life or take the life of another.

Yes, it was totally clear in the SNES version, too.

That's a little harsh, I mean... As you previously said, the game came out years and years ago. When I first played it, I was nine. Personally I missed that as well (Or at the very least I've forgotten), and I'm mucho looking forward to playing it again and seeing more of the things that I missed. Yes, I still own the cartridge, and yes, I still play it now and again, but... Replaying RPGs, usually I skip most of the plot that I've already seen, so... Playing it on the DS with a new translation will force me to pay attention again, and that is going to be awesome!

[Naga_Feanor]

I love Gamestop's description of the game.

You mean this description?

[Krylo]

Read this!
But... I already read that when noncon posted it in quote tags instead of as a picture.

I can only do so much reading in a day, you know! You're gonna hurt my brain meats if you people keep makin' me reread things.

That's a little harshNaaaah. It's just Mirai.

Or, rather, Dante... something... die... or whatever he's callin' himself these days.

Replaying RPGs, usually I skip most of the plot that I've already seenI'll let you off, then. Though part of the reason I replay RPGs is because the plot has faded from memory and I want to relive it. It's not generally for the combat system. That's for games like Devil May Cry.

So, I guess I never thought about it never having been read over again for however many years, I don't feel like checking again.

[Kim]

Obviously, as I quoted it word for word and put it in a little quote box.

Actually no, I was talking about that other Gamestop. You guys know. It's that other one. Yeah.

EDIT: Damn you, Krylo, and your awesome ninja skills!

[Mirai Gen]

Generally playing an RPG second time through (which doesn't happen much since there's only like three or four RPGs I even like) I skip through most of the dialog. Earthbound is a good example; having to sit through the Sky Runner and the boating from Summers to Dalaran (I think that was the place?) was pretty aggravating because you can't skip it. They were nice the first time around but there's no 'skip cutscene' button.

Regardless, again that might be why I never noticed since I was like 15+ when I first got to play CT through entirely illegitimate means. The re translation kind of forces me because I'm curious what they changed. (and I'm still upset about Lucca's line to Marle; it was classic!)

All the same I feel it was made more clear than the original version. Take that as you will.

[POS Industries]

Dalaran (I think that was the place?)
Damn. The Kirin Tor really get around.

[bluestarultor]

I just have to say this.

I hate Gamestop. They need to burn. There are people out there who have never heard of CT and are gullible enough to believe that rot. Had I the power, I would make CTDS a Gamestop Non-Inclusive. By which I mean I would totally ban Gamestop from seeing a single copy for the rest of eternity.

Fuck idiocy; fuck Gamestop.


On that note, I'm going to say I personally find a lot of merit in replaying old games as an older person. Kids miss out on a LOT.


Also that the main reason I took up (primarily) blunt weaponry was for the express reason that I wanted to take the guesswork out of whether or not I was going to do lethal damage by accident. My brother is a sword person because, frankly, he likes cutting shit with it. Including our trees, bushes, and occasionally the grass if I let it get too long. The kid's like Fighter with that thing in his hand. I prefer to use something that I know I can beat the shit out of someone with if I have to, but that isn't going to kill someone if I only need to give them a whack to rein them in a bit. Also, a staff gives me range. :D

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I just have to say this.

I hate Gamestop. They need to burn. There are people out there who have never heard of CT and are gullible enough to believe that rot. Had I the power, I would make CTDS a Gamestop Non-Inclusive. By which I mean I would totally ban Gamestop from seeing a single copy for the rest of eternity.

Fuck idiocy; fuck Gamestop.



Seriously?
I was amused by it and far more interesting than reading
"Join Chrono and his friends in an RPG adventure across time".

[Jagos]

The re translation kind of forces me because I'm curious what they changed. (and I'm still upset about Lucca's line to Marle; it was classic!)



You mean where Marle talked to herself in the end?

[Magus]

I too thought the description was funny. The Napoleon Dynamite reference took me back three or four years, y'know, to the good old days.

[POS Industries]

What are you guys talking about?

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/CT_ending.jpg

That was always the canon ending!

[BitVyper]

He lacked the conviction to risk his life or take the life of another.

He journeyed right beside Cyrus the whole time. He may not have wanted to kill, but he definitely was willing to risk his life. Cyrus wasn't alone with Magus and Ozzie on that cliff.

Well-adjusted human beings reflexively try not to hurt each other with objects designed to kill.

Right, but that isn't what the discussion is about. We were talking about training being translated into practical use.


Think about it--if you were reflexively trying not to hit someone when it was safe to do so

Hitting someone with a bokken can kill them. There are plenty of live blade excersizes as well, and while those generally aren't done with a partner, traditional dojos can be quite small, so you get desensitized to swinging at other there too.

Frog wasn't the type to easily overcome it.

No. Frog made a conscious decision not to fight at all. That's easy to do, and completely different from what I'm talking about. The discussion was in regards to Crono going from training to fighting real battles. Crono had already decided to take a path that would put him in life or death fights (although he didn't fight an actual human being for a long time (if Dalton counts as human)). Everything I said was in reference to what actually happens in a fight. Training is specifically designed to get you ready for the practical application. That's what it's for. There are plenty of excersizes out there that are all about get you over reflexively flinching at hitting or being hit. If you're actively choosing not to carry a sword or fight at all, that sort of puts a hiccup into the practicality of being a swordsman.

When Frog actually fights, he doesn't reflexively avoid striking, or pull his punches so to speak. Aside from the fact that it's a video game, and therefore not a perfect simulation of real life, the reason is likely because he was still a swordsman the whole time; he was just a swordsman who refused to actually fight, taking reflexes and adrenalin completely out of the equation.

Edit: And again, keep in mind that this is all in reference to the practical use of training. Of course a person who hasn't practiced is going to be different. My friend notes that the hardest thing for most people, armed or unarmed, is striking straight through another person. His personal take on that is that we, like many other animals, are geared more toward threatening displays when confronted with an opponent who can hurt us, rather than actually making the most direct attack possible - trying to end the situation without starting the kind of fight that leads to injury or death.

[Jagos]

I'm to think that Glenn/Frog never really had anything to fight for. When he lost Cyrus, revenge is a much better thing to fight for than say, boasting you have talent in whatever.

Magus forced him to look at what he'd accomplished by not fighting for what he believed in. He lost his best friend, he was changed into an animal, and he had no drive. Face it, Magus practically did him a favor.

[katiuska]

Crono had already decided to take a path that would put him in life or death fights (although he didn't fight an actual human being for a long time (if Dalton counts as human)).

He fought humans before Dalton, or rather, a human. Why Janus goes from being a relatively normal-looking, green-eyed kid to an adult with red eyes and elf ears is beyond me, but the Zeal family is human. They're just from an extremely magical strain that Lavos had some influence in developing.

Also, I'd say there's still a distinction; in training you might be able to kill someone, but it's not your intent. I can only imagine going into it prepared to take a person's life is another deal, even if you're trained to take on the proper mindset. Things don't quite become real until you meet them face-to-face.

[Moogle0119]

Actually I think the first time Crono fights any humans would be the guards in the Guardia Dungeon/Prison when he's locked up for kidnapping Marle in 1000 AD.

[Fifthfiend]

Oh my word that Chrono ad was the greatest thing I've ever seen. I'm weeping tears right now, tears of pure joy.

[Mirai Gen]

Bit's got my thoughts on this written out long after I gave up.

You mean where Marle talked to herself in the end?

No, I meant earlier when I said they changed Marle's dialog with Lucca from "Lucca, you're a genius!" "Ain't it the truth?" to something stupid.

[katiuska]

Actually I think the first time Crono fights any humans would be the guards in the Guardia Dungeon/Prison when he's locked up for kidnapping Marle in 1000 AD.

Shit, I'd totally forgotten about that. Though to be fair, I've generally waited for Lucca and taken the fastest (and guard-free) route.