Anime Thread: It's like putting salt on sweet vanilla! [Archive]

Kim

12-20-2008, 02:55 AM

Since I've gotten some more Casshern Sins and Toradora! to talk about, I felt it time for a new thread. Casshern Sins leaves the plot once again so it can follow Casshern who never has anything plot related happen to him. Except that one time, but it doesn't count. Anywhos, you see a lot more Friender in this episode, as well as a robot who is cool and I wish he was important to the plot so I could see him again, but I probably won't.

Toradora! is reminding me of how my own father really is much more than I like, but that's part of what makes the show great and helps me identify with what Taiga is going through. I like how Ryuuji isn't just an idiot, but he's got his own selfish reasons for Taiga to make up with her father. This show probably has the most real, well thought out character's I've ever seen in a show, anime or otherwise.

Axl

12-20-2008, 06:23 AM

Oh man, Toradora 12's Ashita no Joe reference had me bursting with laughter.

Check. Mate.

Ryong

12-20-2008, 12:05 PM

I'm thinking of watching Gun Buster and GaoGaiGar, only because they're the roots for TTGL. Also, Tower of Druaga. Is it any good?

phil_

12-20-2008, 03:51 PM

Gun Buster and Dai Buster are very good, but brace for nudity. I haven't watched GaoGaiGar, but I've heard good things. I have watched Daiguard, which is, at least at first, about how a giant robot would do if it were made of realistic materials and technology. It's a fun show, but it isn't mind blowing or anything. I still recommend it.

I have no clue on Tower of Druaga.

Regulus Tera

12-20-2008, 11:15 PM

Oh fuck, I totally forgot there was a new Toradora! this week. Dissidia has been consuming almost all of my time. I'll be back in half an hour.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9366/12232156607539834043fi6.gif

Well, that was something.

Is it me or the animation was fluider this week? Almost seems like another team was handling it.

Probably my favourite episode so far. It's nice to see some actual development on every character ('cept Kitamura). I was not expecting such quality from J.C. Staff when I began to watch the show, yet I can easily say this is my favourite programme of the past season. Seeing winter's lineup is kinda sucky, Toradora! will help me pull through.

Eltargrim

12-20-2008, 11:17 PM

I'm so behind. And I can't catch up. :(

Regulus Tera

12-20-2008, 11:44 PM

I'm thinking of watching Gun Buster and GaoGaiGar, only because they're the roots for TTGL. Also, Tower of Druaga. Is it any good?

Gunbuster is a must for every GAINAX fan. Diebuster too, even if it strives for a whole different sentiment than the original series.

I haven't watched GaoGaiGar due to lack of availability, but everything I've heard about it is positive.

Kim

12-20-2008, 11:49 PM

Just watched Hellsing Ultimate V. Was pretty fuckin' awesome, even without Alucard. For some reason, Anderson's Japanese VA really bugs me. Hmmm. Overall, was fucking sweet, and am really looking forward to more, and hoping that Hirano can finish the manga before he finishes the anime, the lazy bastard.

Axl

12-21-2008, 02:39 AM

Overall, was fucking sweet, and am really looking forward to more, and hoping that Hirano can finish the manga before he finishes the anime, the lazy bastard.

The manga ended a few months ago. Heads up.

Seeing winter's lineup is kinda sucky, Toradora! will help me pull through.

Kinda sucky other than HAJIME NO FUCKING IPPO.

Regulus Tera

12-21-2008, 02:51 AM

Kinda sucky other than HAJIME NO FUCKING IPPO.

I cannot call the winter "good" when the most exciting show of the season is a fucking remake. Everything else I'm interested in is either a continuation of one of the shows from this year or... a continuation of one of the shows of this year. :/

Forgot to mention, I dropped Tales of the Abyss about two months ago. So boring.

Axl

12-21-2008, 03:11 AM

I cannot call the winter "good" when the most exciting show of the season is a fucking remake.

The new HnI is a legitimate second season. Continuing from where the first one left off... right?

If I'm wrong my boner is going to be annihilated.

Regulus Tera

12-21-2008, 03:45 AM

The new HnI is a legitimate second season. Continuing from where the first one left off... right?

If I'm wrong my boner is going to be annihilated.

Seems like you're right, actually.

Still a sequel. I wanna see some new material already. :/

EVILNess

12-21-2008, 05:35 AM

GaoGaiGar is pretty easy to describe. Its like someone took power rangers, G Gundam, and the first half of Gurren Lagann and threw them in a blender, and then gave the ensuing smoothie a giant hammer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauITkQUFzU).

Also, Viral's voice guy is in GaoGaiGar.

Kim

12-21-2008, 11:58 AM

Hey! Casshern! You're being depressing! Knock it off! I'm tired of crying every time a new episode comes out, goddammit! Casshern once again ditches the plot for the most part, while mentioning some stuff about Braiking Boss and Luna, but mostly focusing on sad, emotional stuff that has nothing to do with the story, but that's okay! It's part of what makes it what it is! I like exclamation points!

ZAKtheGeek

12-22-2008, 04:48 PM

I just watched Haruhi. I'm not sure why this show is so popular.

Donomni

12-22-2008, 04:52 PM

It's pretty much the only thing I ever watched the subs of, and while it is a fun series, it doesn't justify the internet imploding because of it.

I blame made-up fan characters.

phil_

12-22-2008, 06:32 PM

Churuya is awesome, shut up.

And Haruhi is popular entirely because of the dance. Apparently the books are good, too. I dunno, Mike's the one reading them.

Kim

12-22-2008, 07:32 PM

I liked Haruhi pretty good. It wasn't OMG great, but if watched in the proper order, it's pretty good. It's a fun romp.

ZAKtheGeek

12-22-2008, 08:48 PM

The dancing is nice...

What is the "proper order?" Does that mean chronologically? That would be terrible. You'd have that ending. Plus, halfway through, it'd be like "WTF this doesn't make sense." I think it actually benefited from having the end in the middle and the middle at the end.

Kim

12-26-2008, 07:50 PM

Proper order meant in the order it originally broadcasted in.

I'm watching Goku Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei Episode 2 now. One of the funniest things about the entire episode is the different art styles for the different parts just cuz it feels so silly. Also, have the pause button handy for the second part or you might miss parts of the jokes. But yeah... One of my favorite episodes so far.

EDIT: Upon further reflection, hovering over the pause button has generally been necessary for the whole series.

EDITEDIT: Toradora ep 13 was awesome. That was an amazing frikkin' race, and the relationship between Taiga and glasses boy advances a little. All in all, a great episode.

Regulus Tera

12-27-2008, 09:55 PM

Everyone not watching Toradora! is missing on something really special. I like how it takes a jab at every single harem anime out there yet does not feel like parody.

God damn Ryuuji's and Taiga's relationship is becoming one of my favourites in the medium.

Kim

12-27-2008, 11:17 PM

Agreed. I'm also starting to wonder more if they really will end up together, what with their relationships with the people they like starting to grow stronger. Toradora! surprises me all the time, so Ryuuji and Taiga not going out in the end doesn't seem too far-fetched, even though I really, really, really hope they do.

Regulus Tera

12-27-2008, 11:42 PM

That's what I like the most about this show. They could end up in a totally clich�d tsundere and nice guy hook up together, but the plot seems to go only as far as making them really nice and close friends while developing their relationships with their respective crushes. It keeps you on your toes all the time, regarding the romantic hijinks.

Kim

12-28-2008, 12:23 AM

Casshern 13 depressed and frightened me. Think it was the season finale... Really, really good. Lot's of plot this time around. Braiking Boss is also pretty interesting. New ending kicked some ass, too.

Odjn

12-28-2008, 08:09 PM

I'm going to regret this.

I would like an anime. I liked Darker than Black, Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champ, Excel Saga, and NGE. NGE/Excel/DtB in that order are my favorites.

None of that shit where someone is just so WACKY or people get away with being violent without being doing stuff or harems or ANYTHING that requires me to put up with translations with Japanese concepts or whatever. Essentially an anime that is not spastic and takes itself seriously, it can have brief comedy moments but it's not a comedy show and the humor doesn't cause dissonance.

Belm

12-28-2008, 08:26 PM

I'd recommend Gungrave, for it is a well done mafia story anime.

Just don't let the first few episodes throw you off.

Possum Knight

12-28-2008, 09:05 PM

This^^

Gungrave is really serious with some good action that doesn't get too nuts until the end of the series. it still has its comedy aspects to it...in the oddest places and times.

it reminds me of Berserk with guns and the mafia.

Regulus Tera

12-28-2008, 09:40 PM

Odjn

12-28-2008, 10:11 PM

No.

Regulus Tera

12-28-2008, 10:18 PM

Why? It fits your description, really. :(

Kim

12-28-2008, 11:14 PM

Personally, I'd recommend Casshern Sins for Odjn. Serious, interesting, and without any WACKY characters or Japanese concepts.

Regulus Tera

12-29-2008, 12:10 AM

Okay, yeah, I guess Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann gets way too wacky at times.

I recommend Eureka Seven and Michiko � Hatchin.

Fifthfiend

12-29-2008, 12:25 AM

Honestly Oddles he's not too far off with the TTGL. Give the first like, three episodes a try and see if it doesn't do anything for you.

Past that what you're looking for is probably something like Afro Samurai, which is sort of like a Western-produced summary of all the shit an average American late-teenager would be looking to find in a Japanese cartoon series.

Also Black Lagoon, although it helps if you wait to watch that until you have a soul-crushing office job so you can fully appreciate watching a guy with a similarly soul-crushing office job ditching that shit to go get shot at by pirates and mobsters in a South Asian villain's paradise.

Samurai Champ

Oh good, so I'm not the only one who feels like an idiot saying "champloo".

Mondt

12-29-2008, 12:51 AM

I always pronounced is "Shamploo"

But now I realize it sounds like shampoo.

I want some shampoo in a samurai outfit now.

Donomni

12-29-2008, 01:30 PM

You might like Fullmetal Alchemist.

Eureka Seven, however, you should definitely watch, as it's pretty much exactly what you described. No super-deformed comedy, and it also does acknowledge the idiocy of people who do something stupid.

One of the many reasons I liked the show was because characters have actually questioned, more or less: "Shit, Holland, do you really have to be a fucking asshole?"

My memory might be a bit fuzzy on this as a whole, but you really should check it out.

phil_

12-29-2008, 02:10 PM

Regulus Tera

12-29-2008, 03:16 PM

Speaking of Eureka Seven...

http://i44.tinypic.com/mr4bqw.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/vdz2ud.jpg

Psalms of Planets Eureka Seven: Theatrical Feature: Pocket Full of Rainbows

Date: APRIL 2009 - GOLDEN WEEK (http://www.eureka-prj.net/)

And a list of all the shows debuting this winter (http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x160/bmfrosty/gaf/2008_2009_winter.jpg).

phil_

12-29-2008, 04:23 PM

I...

I think I"m going to cry.

Kaneda

12-29-2008, 05:58 PM

I'd recommend Eureka 7 if you like 40 episodes of everyone doing nothing, then 10 or so good episodes at the end.

Although being biased towards it I'd like to recommend FMA, but it does have its moments of Japanese wacky humor, so I suppose that's not what you'd really like.

I guess what you might like is either Ghost in the Shell or Paranoia Agent. Both definitely meet your criteria. (of the two I prefer Paranoia Agent.)

Eltargrim

12-29-2008, 06:02 PM

Kaneda

12-29-2008, 06:10 PM

Eureka Seven may have a lot of filler, but it's damn good filler which actually serves the purpose of developing the characters. The plot is more or less incidental when compared to the character developments that take place.

There was some good character development, and the cast was quite strong. But just because there is character development doesn't mean that much time was necessary to devote to it. The whole series was far too drawn out, which nearly killed my interest in it by the time the plot actually started up in the last fifth of the show.

I don't mean to come across as sort of ADD "hurfdurf needs moar plot tweests!" but it just felt like the show creators thought these characters could drive a show for 40something episodes, and to me they really couldn't.

Fifthfiend

12-29-2008, 06:19 PM

I recommend Eureka Seven if you can deal with the fuzzie wuzzies as well as the prickly wicklies. Otherwise, go with Gurren Lagann. There's really no reason not to watch it, given the criteria you've listed, beyond "it's popular and therefore must suck."

It does go a fair lot farther in the direction of silliness at points than I think Odjn particularly wants to go. I personally was cool with it cause it was passably amusing and ultimately in service to a surprisingly serious storyline (and with both ultimately subordinated to shitloads of sexy robot violence) but I could see how it could be a turnoff for some people.

Kim

12-29-2008, 11:53 PM

I'll second the earlier Afro Samurai recommend. It's surprisingly awesome.

Also, Odjn, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is really as good as you've heard, if not better, so I'd recommend giving it a shot. It's over-the-top and cheesy, but in a good way. Characters all have their own unique traits and flaws, but the show doesn't focus on the flaws. It also doesn't rub your face in it. For a show as flashy and all that as TTGL is, it can be surprisingly subtle in its own way. It's also a lot deeper than it'd lead you to believe.

Other recommendations? I hear Monster is good, even though I haven't seen much myself.

Fifthfiend

12-30-2008, 04:01 PM

I'll second the earlier Afro Samurai recommend. It's surprisingly awesome.

You wouldn't think it would be that surprising considering it's a cartoon starring Samuel L. Jackson as a samurai in futuristic feudal quasi-Japan, but it then surprises you by being even more awesome than you'd already have expected.

Kim

12-30-2008, 07:35 PM

I actually didn't think I'd like Afro Samurai that much when I bought it. It sounded like one of those fucking awesome ideas that in practice fails to live up to what you'd expect of such a thing, but it pulls it off great, and I don't care what anyone says, NinjaNinja is awesome.

EDIT: Thinking on it, one of the reasons Toradora! is so great to me is how real it feels. Taiga's father is EXACTLY like my biological father. I'm not even joking. I really identify with her.

Odjn

01-02-2009, 02:20 PM

TTGL is a good anime, I'm just not into that. Black Lagoon is extremely good and I shall accordingly rep fifth for that.

Okay, yeah, I guess Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann gets way too wacky at times.

I recommend Eureka Seven and Michiko � Hatchin.

The latter is where a woman escapes from the most heavily guarded prison in the world four times and busts through a girl's window on a motorcycle. Wacky.

Let me be clearer here!

I like realism. Not like no powers no nothing realism necessarily, although that can be cool, but what I mean is when someone busts through your window you go WHAT THE FUCK or some incredulous remark and they would not be able to escape from the most heavily guarded prison in the world multiple times because it's the most heavily guarded prison in the world. If someone has a set of clearly defined powers you don't suddenly give them new ones for no reason (Avatar/Darker than Black, I'm looking at you) except in a manner that, when considered with what's happened previously has no obvious contradictions (in Evangelion, Shinji's Eva regenerates. Given the massive amount of injury it's suffered in previous episodes and the pristine condition Eva 01 is in every new fight, this makes sense.) When characters are assholes, I want other characters calling them on that.

I like serious philosophy/psychology. Spike from Cowboy Bebop has a bunch of this in his interactions with his nemesis, and from his past life, saying he's already dead. NGE has believable, if annoying sometimes, characters with various consistent flaws. Shinji can't deal with people, so he avoids them to prevent rejection. Asuka fights and shows off to get attention. They're not Random Psychological Disorder tacked on with a cliche back story.

So there you go.

Regulus Tera

01-02-2009, 02:26 PM

Tev

01-02-2009, 02:32 PM

I suggest Noein. It has very nice art designs and while time travel/dimension hopping is a part of the plot, the technology is both fun and believable.

You get to look forward to:
- X-Files Molder and Skully rip-offs...but in a good way.
- Time Travel/ Dimensional understanding.
- Tween-age kids going through that "coming of age" thing.....some with box cutters!
- Rappelling through time and space!
- Very intricate story line.
- Very well done art work in a nice crisp style.

Axl

01-02-2009, 02:46 PM

Realism and philosophy/psychology? I'd recommend both Akagi and Kaiji, both heavily deal with gambling and being pretty rad.

Odjn

01-02-2009, 03:53 PM

Cowboy Bebop is realistic, but Michiko � Hatchin isn't? I think your definition of wacky is wackily off the target.

Seriously, there are tons of similarities between the two series. At least watch until episode four before dismissing it. If you want philosophical stuff, try Serial Experiments Lain.

NEW HAJIME NO IPPO TEASER (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=RKnIsCcRzAg&fmt=18)

Cowboy Bebop had a ton of silly stuff like blaxpoitation dudes hauling around coffins and shrooms and data dogs but when you got down to it everything had a convincing explanations except the weirdest crap like the fridge episode. Ein is a super smart dog because he was genetically engineered to be so, but can't talk or anything because he's just a smart dog. Pierrot was an experiment. I mean I could totally go on here but the point is the series has a silly side to it that's pretty much cordoned off while the one you're recommending is embracing wackiness as in wow she can ride bikes and escape prison but it makes no sense, how are they letting a woman do this four times? You're confusing realistic as in, it makes sense/has a reasonable explanation within the universe with realistic as in real life.

Whereas if you escape a super prison once it's a staggering feat, twice it's miraculous and I would , and the third time afterwards you should've been shot once you left your cell, in which you'd be bound hand and foot so you can't escape again because it's a super prison! Unless she has like strength and endurance or something.

Regulus Tera

01-02-2009, 05:03 PM

Whereas if you escape a super prison once it's a staggering feat, twice it's miraculous and I would , and the third time afterwards you should've been shot once you left your cell, in which you'd be bound hand and foot so you can't escape again because it's a super prison! Unless she has like strength and endurance or something.

No offence to Bellsouth Minion and Ryong, but Brazilian prisons are hardly known for being the safest in the world.

Fifthfiend

01-02-2009, 05:55 PM

I mainly didn't like Michiko due to not liking any of the characters and finding it depressing as fuck. It's kind of like Cowboy Bebop if in the fourth episode of Cowboy Bebop Spike had said fuck off Faye you're on your own and she'd gone back to the guy she owed money to and begged for her life before his psychotic ten-year-olds shot her in the head.

The point about the prisons probably stands; considering that basically everyone in the show is apparently utterly corrupt on every level it's kind of hard to see where by the time she escaped the third time they wouldn't have just shot her in the head.

Anyways Odjn I'm glad to hear you liked Black Lagoon. Yeah if philosophy's your thing it's pretty good as the series is basically an existentialist morality play with gun ballet and Russian paramilitary criminal mobs. It does get heavyhanded and even outright didactic at points but it usually works in that the particular observations are actually really interestingly non-trite, especially in the way they tend to conflict with the sort of stock cliches you'd usually expect from this sort of setting.

Lumenskir

01-02-2009, 06:19 PM

Odjn, you want to watch Monster. Absolutely no wackiness, it could easily be acted out by real people (i.e., it's realistic), and it's engaging.

phil_

01-02-2009, 06:35 PM

And Monster goes on and on and on and on, so, if you like it, there will be plenty for you to enjoy.

Mike McC

01-02-2009, 07:29 PM

Just be warned, Monster does move a bit slowly, but it's worth it.

Kim

01-03-2009, 02:39 AM

Just because this doesn't get recommended enough, though the wackiness would probably scare Odjn away, Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. A satire on many things in modern society, with funny, interesting characters that are all two-dimensional in a good way. It's not about character development. It's about taking one thing that is wrong with society and making fun of it for ten minutes with highly entertaining characters before moving onto the next.

Regulus Tera

01-03-2009, 03:00 AM

Something just hit me about the show. Ignore this PM if you haven't seen ep 13.

Ringo is either Casshern's daughter or neice, I think.

That I didn't think of that sooner surprises me.

Add Luna as the mother and I agree.

I did not like episode thirteen. For all the plot advancement Sins finally got, it felt way too contrived and convenient. The sudden appearance and revelations of Braiking Boss were hammed into the plot, like everything else in this episode.

Also, the new ending sucks. :(

Kim

01-03-2009, 03:04 AM

From what I gathered, it was a one time ED, only used for the last ep of the season. As for the plot, I can imagine something like this happening...

"Okay, time to reveal a little more plot. Wait. Episode thirteen?! That's halfway through the series! Ohshitohshitohshit! Gotta squeeze in a lot of plot to make up for twelve episodes of Casshern and Friends."

Kaneda

01-03-2009, 11:27 AM

I like realism. Not like no powers no nothing realism necessarily, although that can be cool...

I like serious philosophy/psychology. Spike from Cowboy Bebop has a bunch of this in his interactions with his nemesis, and from his past life, saying he's already dead. NGE has believable, if annoying sometimes, characters with various consistent flaws. Shinji can't deal with people, so he avoids them to prevent rejection. Asuka fights and shows off to get attention. They're not Random Psychological Disorder tacked on with a cliche back story.

I definitely recommend Paranoia Agent then. The overall tone of the show is very much grounded in realism (although in the last couple of episodes some elements are less so, although never wacky or feeling out of place). It essentially follows a pair of detectives investigating a street assailant, but grows into a sort of commentary on Japanese culture, and how it reacted to events like the atomic bomb. Also it's only 13 episodes, so not particularly demanding of much time.

Kim

01-03-2009, 01:23 PM

Fifthfiend

01-03-2009, 02:52 PM

So I watched this Casshern thing I keep hearing about.

So far it seems to follow a pretty solid pattern of "HAY CASSHAN, IMMA EAT U" "No way I'm Casshern an' Imma kill you!" "Hey Casshern you killed the world, you're a jerkass!" ":(" "P.S. I'm gonna EAT YOU, jerkass!" "Nuh uh! *killkillkill*".

Do I have that about right?

That said, the violence was pretty swanky. The fact that it's all robot-on-robot would kinda kill it, but the fact that the show treats robot murder as being actually equivalent to human murder makes it stay relatively interesting cause you don't get that feeling with a lot of shows where they're tryin' to say look kids, violence is totally okay, as long as it's on robots!

Kaneda

01-03-2009, 09:21 PM

that feeling with a lot of shows where they're tryin' to say look kids, violence is totally okay, as long as it's on robots!

Are you saying Samurai Jack is racist against robots?

EVILNess

01-03-2009, 10:05 PM

Check out Paprika as well. Made by same person, and a lot of stuff towards the end makes now sense, but I always kind of looked at that as the movie reflecting the feel and experience of what it's about.

Paprika is a royal mind fuck if you ask me. I still enjoyed it though.

As for all this Casshern talk, the only Casshern I have seen is the live action movie.

Kim

01-04-2009, 12:33 AM

Then you have not seen any good Casshern. Given, the movie and this anime are the only Casshern I've seen, so I haven't seen all the Casshern there is to see, but yeah, Sins is pretty awesome, even if it would be better named Casshern and Friends.

EDIT: Started watching Monster, about a third of the way through. It just said that Johann has two personalities. I'm really not sure how to feel about that. I don't think I've seen a show where multiple personalities was done well or relatively realistically. It always seems to work how the director of whatever show thinks it should work, rather than how it does. "Oh noes, main character's wife was cheating on him. Now he has evil personality!" I have high hopes that Monster will say, "Nope! Johann was just messing with them!" or that it will be done surprisingly well.

Fifthfiend

01-04-2009, 04:06 PM

Are you saying Samurai Jack is racist against robots?

I mean, is this even up for question?

Kaneda

01-04-2009, 04:47 PM

I mean, is this even up for question?

Oh, so when Bender hates humans it's emmy winning humor, but when a human decides to enjoy a little robo-slaughter, it's a hate crime?

You robot sympathizers sicken me.

Kim

01-06-2009, 02:49 AM

Monster is pretty awesome. Tenma is a cool hero. Johan is a cool villain. Lunge is a fucker. Almost halfway through now. Wondering how the show is gonna last 74 episodes without being needlessly drawn out. Also wondering about some of Johan's motivations and plans. One of the things I like about him as a villain is his normality. His voice is perfect for his character, and he looks nothing like a villain, which is why it's so believable.

Eltargrim

01-06-2009, 10:02 AM

Noncon, I'm on episode 51 right now, and all I can say is that...well, fuck, I can't say it without spoilers, but watching some of that shit is actually painful. Don't get me wrong, I love the show, but...ow.

Victus

01-06-2009, 04:13 PM

Odjn, I'd probably have to recommend Noir as well. Music is good, it's quite realistic, and follows a good plot. Action is pretty smooth too.

ZAKtheGeek

01-06-2009, 06:27 PM

I didn't like Monster. It lost my interest really quickly, so I hardly ever cared what was going to happen next, and barely understood it. That made it seriously tedious. Everyone gushes over it, though, so I assume I just didn't "get it." Doesn't help that the one person I've ever actually met that saw it didn't like it either...

Mike McC

01-06-2009, 06:32 PM