View Full Version : Need Dog Advice
Preturbed
02-01-2009, 05:31 PM
My girlfriend and I just got a new Jack Russell Terrier. For future reference, his name is Sparky. He's about a year and a half old, and according to the breeders who gave him to us, was abused when he was younger. They've been working hard to get him to where he can trust people and other dogs again, but it seems to have taken and he gets along with everyone in my house, as well as my sister's pitbull mix and my parent's beagle and peke-a-whatever.
He's still got a couple problems, though, and if anyone can help me work this kink out of his personality I'd very much appreciate it. My parents have another dog, a peke-a-poo that's pretty much mommy's spoiled princess boy. When these two dogs were introduced today, Sammy (mom's dog) growled and barked at Sparky. It seems Sparky took this pretty personally, because he responded with an attack. He bit and wouldn't let go. I pulled him off, said "No" and swatted his behind. This didn't put him off, because he went after Sammy again. Mom scooped him up, and Sparky jumped up and bit his tail. I pried him off, repeated the discipline. He jumped up a third time, with just as much or more vigor than before, and got Sammy's whole tail between his teeth. It took a lot of effort to pry him free this third time, and Sammy was crying the whole time. I disciplined him a third time, spanking a little harder and repeating "No, bad dog" loudly several times. Sammy was the taken inside and Sparky was left outside. The whole ordeal took maybe 30 seconds.
I'd like to be able to take Sparky to my parents house for play dates without having to worry about this behavior. In fact, I'd like it if all the dogs could be made to get along, but I'm clueless as to how to do it short of keeping Sammy locked away while I'm there.
Dog stats -
Sparky - My dog. 1.5 years old, 20 pounds tops, Jack Russell, full male.
Buck - Dad's dog, beagle, 25-30 pounds, full male. Gets along fine
Jack - Parent's dog, mutt-a-poo, 15- pounds, fixed. Gets along fine.
Sammy - Mom's dog, peke-a-poo, 15- pounds, fixed. FIGHT!
Buddy - Sister's dog, Pit Bull mix, 55+ pounds, fixed. Gets along fine.
PyrosNine
02-01-2009, 05:54 PM
The key is simple discipline over time. You need to introduce Sparky to another dog (that's protected) and everytime he growls or attempts to bite, you enact discipline.
For instance, my dog Lilu stopped barking at new people after I started giving her a smack for it, and over time, she just came to associate barking with 'smacks' and at the same time I'd lead her over to guests, and now she will greet most people who come to the door.
Now some people will think a smack is too harsh, but I've found it works best in the long run.
You use a harmless bottle of water spray, and then you get a dog who is scared of baths times 2!
So, anyway, you find something your dog will dislike, and whenever Sparky tries to go for the kill, make him miserable. Then, lead Sparky back to the other dog, and when he tries again, make him miserable again. Keep doing this, until he learns. This may take days, and weeks!
Then, when he is good, give him a treat AFTER good behavior, but not around other dogs (because ALL dogs have trouble watching another dog get yummies.)
IF all else fails, get a cat.
Krylo
02-01-2009, 10:01 PM
For instance, my dog Lilu stopped barking at new people after I started giving her a smack for it, and over time, she just came to associate barking with 'smacks' and at the same time I'd lead her over to guests, and now she will greet most people who come to the door.
Now some people will think a smack is too harsh, but I've found it works best in the long run.
You use a harmless bottle of water spray, and then you get a dog who is scared of baths times 2!
So, anyway, you find something your dog will dislike, and whenever Sparky tries to go for the kill, make him miserable. Then, lead Sparky back to the other dog, and when he tries again, make him miserable again. Keep doing this, until he learns. This may take days, and weeks!
Now normally, I'd agree--but...
was abused when he was younger.
I would really suggest against hitting/physically punishing a dog who was abused to the point where trainers had to reteach him to trust people. ESPECIALLY if he got violent at another animal from growling alone. The reason being that hitting a dog that was abused could potentially cause a relapse, and make him violent again. It may not be likely, but I don't see where taking a chance on it is a particularly good idea if you have other options.
I'd suggest, instead, talking to the trainers about how they got him to trust other animals, to see if they have any suggestions.
Another good idea is to put both dogs in pet carriers or in a pen with a cage between them, where they can't get too far apart but can't attack each other either. Let them get used to each other this way, and there shouldn't be any fighting when they're released near each other.
It's also entirely possible that your mother's princess just made the mistake of challenging the authority of a dog that doesn't have it in his personality to take that kind of shit, and this won't be an issue in the future now that they've worked out which of them is the alpha dog.
bluestarultor
02-02-2009, 05:18 PM
^ I was expecting something along the lines of "Take a newspaper and rub it horizontally over the dog's head. This will polarize his brain..." XD
Krylo has some good points there. Also, regardless, I'd say a lot more training is needed. If this dog can't take a little growling without going on the attack, he poses a danger to people, too. Growling is a rather small show of adversity compared to things humans might do. Like if he was choked in his abuse, he might attack someone who reaches to flap his ears or who gives him a playful rub around the neck. Or if he was kicked and someone trips over him at night, he might repay them with a leg full of teeth. He might seem reformed now, but it only takes one slip-up for someone to get seriously injured.
Fifthfiend
02-02-2009, 07:32 PM
My girlfriend and I just got a new Jack Russell Terrier
PICTURES!
Picturespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespi cturespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespict urespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespictur espicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespictures picturespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespi cturespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespict urespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespictur espicturespicturespicturespictures
Past that, what Krylo said.
When these two dogs were introduced today
I don't have a whoooole lot of experience with dogs but from that bit I've found when you're introducing dogs it helps if you've got 'em both on a leash so you can pull them back if they don't get along? At least in the short term though I don't know how great that works in terms of long-term training methods.
Krylo
02-02-2009, 07:37 PM
PICTURES!
Picturespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespi cturespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespict urespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespictur espicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespictures picturespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespi cturespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespict urespicturespicturespicturespicturespicturespictur espicturespicturespicturespictures
Ahem. (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=892033&postcount=804)
Settle.
Fifthfiend
02-02-2009, 10:10 PM
You know full well I have a toxic allergy to the Camwhore thread. What do you, expect me to go look at the people who come here?
(Well, I say people...)
Ahem. (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=892033&postcount=804)
Dawwwww, puppy!
Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope
02-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Dawwwww, puppy!
Holy crap. Something melted your heart?
Let me go mark my calender.
Preturbed
02-02-2009, 10:39 PM
^ I was expecting something along the lines of "Take a newspaper and rub it horizontally over the dog's head. This will polarize his brain..." XD
Krylo has some good points there. Also, regardless, I'd say a lot more training is needed. If this dog can't take a little growling without going on the attack, he poses a danger to people, too. Growling is a rather small show of adversity compared to things humans might do. Like if he was choked in his abuse, he might attack someone who reaches to flap his ears or who gives him a playful rub around the neck. Or if he was kicked and someone trips over him at night, he might repay them with a leg full of teeth. He might seem reformed now, but it only takes one slip-up for someone to get seriously injured.
Actually he's really good as far as petting and rough play goes. I can pull his ears, pull his tail, all that and he's just like, "Huh? What are you doing?"
Azisien
02-03-2009, 12:04 AM
A) Damn that's a cute doggy.
B) Going farther than what Krylo suggested, I would say you're probably better off never 'smacking' your dog ever, nor spraying it with a bottle of water. Not only are these vaguely abusive, they probably aren't as effective as other methods (sure operand conditioning works eventually, but as with a child I'd rather not have my dog fearing me striking him).
Now, if you say your puppy has a history of abuse that complicates the situation, but since you know what it's your job as owner to plan ahead, taking preventative measures where need be.
Dogs respond well when discipline is given with a stern voice and posture, and the discipline must be given IMMEDIATELY when there is bad behaviour. The dog will come to recognize you as the alpha male/female and follow your orders. Voice (stern and with a level of expectation) and posture (dogs read body language to an incredible degree) are the key points here. Yelling is not necessary.
I'm not a full blown expert here, more of a journeyman, but allow me to attempt an explanation based on the overview of doggies you listed:
Sammy sounds like a spoiled dog, and spoiled dogs almost ubiquitously consider themselves Alpha. Now Sparky, given a history of abuse, probably enjoys subjugation or aggression even less than your average pooch. Sammy is essentially being a bitch, and Sparky was laying down the law. What has to change is YOU, the owners, must become the Alpha in all the dogs eyes. You might not be able to change that for Sammy, but you could and should for Sparky. That gives you control of the situation.
Additional notes on establishing alpha status:
-Try tying a short (3-4 feet) leash around the dog and your waist. Go about your business, dragging the dog everywhere you go. This is what pack members have to do with an Alpha, and Sparky should learn in time. Like other, ahem more abusive, training methods this will take weeks and months of training, though you may see short term changes immediately (I hope).
BitVyper
02-03-2009, 01:32 AM
Edit:
Alpha
Be careful here. A lot of what we know about canine behaviour was established through very faulty research methods, and has been debunked. A lot of "alpha" stuff will only succeed in making your animal worse. You can create habits and never have to tell your dog who's boss. I don't even like to use the word when I teach, because it tends to give people the wrong idea, then I see them doing things like biting their dog back or growling at him. Guess how effective that is.
My bird sits on top of my head quite regularly, which is one of the things people who are really into dominance training will tell you absolutely never to do. All I have to do is tap my wrist, and he'll come down, and I've never had to force him off my head to get that behaviour. I did it by teaching him to come when I tapped my wrist, and in spite of the fact that I still let him do like, 90% of the things everyone says makes him dominant; he always does what I say. Reinforce the behaviour you want, and otherwise just make sure they have limits.
Most animals just don't generalize things well enough to equate dominance in one situation with dominance in unrelated situations. That said, what you have with the mother's dog is yes, someone who is overly permissive, and has probably inadvertantly taught her dog that he can do whatever he wants (and probably that mom will coddle him and pick him up if he gets in a fight). Just be sure you can distinguish between that, and someone who doesn't mind letting their dog say, sit on his foot (another typically "dominant" behaviour). Also be very wary of people who try to get you to do things that are unrelated to your problem, but are done solely to "establish alpha status." That's where you get dominance rolling and shaking, and in a lifetime of training, I've never seen that accomplish anything but getting someone bit.
Dominance, the way it's being used here, is more about not taking guff from your animal when you're actually doing the training. Also just because mom's dog is coddled doesn't mean our dog is allowed to respond in that manner.
nor spraying it with a bottle of water. Not only are these vaguely abusive
No it isn't. It's not my favourite type of distraction (mostly because it's impractical to use), but it works very well with some dogs (probably not for this particular one, but you experiment). You don't even necessarily have to spray them; sometimes just near them to stop what they're doing. Also be careful with overusing your voice, and go for sharpness when you do. You don't want to teach your dog to ignore you. You should be able to get his attention with a single syllable. For reference; I've managed a dozen dogs at once using a squirt bottle. When it works, it works good.
Also never overuse any of your distractions. I don't want *squirt squirt squirt squirt* even if it DOES work, because it will just desensitize my dog to the distraction, which is all it is. If it doesn't immediately stop him from doing whatever he was doing so I can step in and re-establish control of the situation, it's not working. What I want is *squirt, dog gets distracted* "okay come do this now." Obviously if your distraction freaks the dog out even worse, it's not the right thing to use.
Oh, and don't use your voice in situations where you're trying to stop them from barking. It very rarely works.
I'm really sick right now, so this is going to come out incomplete and a bit garbled, but I'll try to get myself up to giving you some more advice tomorrow.
said "No" and swatted his behind.
This will pretty much never accomplish anything except maybe getting you bit and making your dog afraid of you, so best to stay away from that. The thing is, by the time the bite actually happens, you've already failed to do anything meaningful with the situation. Also making a fuss will probably just freak him out further and add to the adrenalin, so do what you have to to get him off, but the main thing is to plan so that this doesn't happen at all.
When it comes to training, the main advantage we have over dogs is that we're smarter than them. Have you heard the phrase; "don't argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience?" That's pretty much what's happening if you have to get physical with your dog(except in very specific ways that apply more to training guard dogs). Anyway, no one ever built a good habit by saying "do this" very loudly.
That's the main thing; you're trying to change his habitual response to other dogs. In order to do that, you need to give him a chance to grow trust in safe situations that you can end quickly; preferably before anything negative happens at all. the best behavioural training happens without the subject even realising it; like getting someone addicted to MMORPGs.
Now especially with him being a terrier, you really want to make sure you're not letting incidents happen, so if you've just got him, don't be tense all the time, but don't set yourself up for something you can't immediately end.
You have to start small with something you can actually accomplish, and then build on that. Here's an example of a very involved method that wouldn't be the first or only thing I would do. It's just nice to describe, because it kind of hits all the bases (using a quote box because I intend to give a few methods that you can combine, and this makes separating them easier). Read the second example I'll give for something a bit more doable:
So the first thing is to set up situations where you can control both dogs with as little manhandling as possible. That may mean, just for an example of one thing you could do, using something to separate them so that they're just in the same room together, like an excersize pen opened up so that it splits the room in half. They are supervised the entire time; never alone together if they aren't being supervised (I would adopt this rule in general until you're a bit more confident with him). Ideally, what you then do at first is keep both of them occupied with their own business, so they're just getting used to having the other around, but not really getting a chance to focus on the other long enough to react. In the past, I've done this by spreading food out on the floor on either side (at least a few feet away from the separator so they don't have anything to fight over). That's one way you could start, but it's not the only way, and depending on exactly what the situation is, there are other things you can do, so I'm going to explain this as if you're doing it that way, because how you handle it will be basically the same no matter what the exact specifics of your method are. You can do this while doing other things, but a large part of your attention should be on the dogs at all times.
Okay, so we've got that going and one of them starts paying attention to the other, or both do. That's okay so far, but I wouldn't let it last super long right at the start. You want them to be distracted again before they have a chance to go from "oh hey look, another dog" to "KILL THE MUTANT!" Here, there's all kinds of things you could do; snap your fingers just to distract them, or start talking to them, or whatever. I like to keep things positive, so I might give each a treat to get them unfocused again. Be careful not to do it in such a way that they can fight over your attention though, and I'd probably mix up who gets it first, if either of them do. By the way; only keep all of this going for as long as you're actually available to supervise. If that means it's a fairly short scenario, that's okay. Short successful scenarios move us in the right direction.
So that's a good situation, but what do you do when things start to go bad? Well, ideally, you've been at least paying enough attention that the situation is still salvageable. First thing is to re-establish control. In the case of this scenario, there's no danger present, so we can actually do that without putting either dog in danger. Now, I don't want to see picking one dog up because that seems to stop the fuss (this will make it worse), or smacking either one around. I always like to try a very sharp, loud noise first (a loud clap, for instance). If that doesn't work though, there's lots of things you can try. Lots of people make rattles by putting coins in pop cans, which have an added benefit in that you can throw them right down on the floor to really get the animal's attention. Some people use squirt bottles with water, or sometimes even water mixed with a little taste deterrent. Whatever. You have a chance to experiment.
If whatever you try first doesn't get them distracted, I wouldn't bother going through everything at once; I'd just call the situation a failure and put both dogs into their kennels for a minute or so (here you can obviously get physical if you have to, but then we've already declared this situation lost), then end it, and put them back into separate areas of the house until I feel like trying again (I wouldn't do more than a few goes a day with whatever method you're using, at least at the start, otherwise you start adding on stress). I want to succeed, so I'll be watching for signs that things are going downhill (lifted lips, growling, hackles raising etc etc), and using that moment to distract them, rather than waiting until they're both too drugged up on adrenalin to hear me.
If you CAN get them distracted, we're still going to end the situation pretty much the same way, but the difference is that we may have actually accomplished something by getting on top of the behaviour immediately. I like to try and get things ended while it's still just one dog reacting to the other, instead of both of them going at it. It's much easier to control, and then by removing that dog from the situation (preferably kenneled, and I know a lot of people say don't kennel as punishment, but I've never actually encountered problems doing this with a dog who is already kennel trained), while allowing the other dog to remain. Do that for a minute or so, then totally end the scenario, separating both dogs to different areas of the house again. That said, dealing with small dogs, things may advance too quickly for you to do that, but then, like I said before, we ideally don't want it to get this far anyway.
So there's a few things that can happen while using a method like this. The main thing, however, is to make sure that you have control of the situation at all times. Over a period of time, we would reduce the number of distractions in the situation, and allow them more chance to just be comfortable around each other without being distracted.
Also remember that it doesn't matter who lived there first; neither dog is allowed to be a prick.
Okay, so like I said; that's a very involved method. It's something I would do here and again maybe while I watch TV, or do something that allows me to stay nearby and supervise. Try it if you're mom is visiting, and you're not really doing anything, but make sure to use a barrier the jack can't jump over. Like I said before though; it isn't the first or only thing I would do.
My favourite thing to do in this kind of situation is make the dogs work. This will work a lot better if you have two people to do it with, which you should in this situation. I also like it because it's something I can do if the dogs don't necessarily live together.
Basically, I want to train them nearby each other. This is obviously best accomplished on a leash, but I don't want to see tension in the line. At first, start as far away from each other as you need to to have control of your dog. Work on simple things (sometimes I even just do "sit, down, sit, down, sit, down" a bit), and as before, keep a handle on the situation so that you're distracting your dog *before* problems start.
Clicker training is handy when you use this method, because it's such a distinct signal that it really helps keep focus on you, and that's the main thing we're trying to do at the start; communicate to our dog that what I'm saying up here is more important than what that other dog is doing over there. You can use a combination of positive reinforcement and correction training for this, but I prefer to keep things positive, as it will help my dog associate the other dog with a positive thing.
As I grow more confident that my dog is handling the situation well, I will start moving our training closer and closer to the other dog. I probably wouldn't do more than about a foot closer per session though. If you overdo it, you will set yourself up for failure, and failure means you lose ground.
Most of what I said in the more involved method can apply here as well, however, instead of using a kennel and just completely ending the situation, you have a bit more freedom.
Say my dog has done a few things for me, but then decides to flip out; with this method, what I can do is this: First I am going to immediately leave the room with my dog (you could try using a distraction here, but with him being a jack, I'm going to guess that it won't be so effective). Just walk straight away and don't even slow down for him. I don't want you jerking his leash around, but I don't want him to get anything out of trying to resist you either. You're walking away, and he's coming along whether he likes it or not. The other person (providing their dog didn't freak out as well), completely ignores this and continues working. You, having left the room with your dog in tow (so that the other dog is completely out of sight), now put your foot down on the leash so he just has a foot or so of give, and just ignore him until he settles down a bit (this may take awhile at first). Now you get him working again, and when you're confident you've re-established control, bring him back to the original room, and try to do a bit more work.
You can keep doing this, or you can end it after the first time someone has to leave the room. I can think of reasons to do both, but the main thing is; come back to the communal room and try to end on a success instead of a failure. That is to say; do a bit more work, but not so much that you have one of them react again.
As time goes on, you're going to get closer and closer until you can have them working right next to each other without having any troubles. Now that you know you have control, you can work on introducing them. Do what you're confident you can get right.
Edit: I forgot to mention that if I've caught things at the point where there's still just a lip curl, or a low growl, but nothing really bad, I'll often just distract once, and allow the scenario to continue. With small reactions like that, I usually operate on a three or four strike rule, instead of immediate punishment. This goes for the first scenario as well. Basically, if you can get control of the situation without leaving it, than by all means do that.
This one is also nice because I can use it around other dogs where the owners aren't necessarily working with me, so long as the situation is still under control (that is; I'm not in danger of having the other dog come bounding over to mine). In fact, depending on how much he reacts to other dogs, I would do this any time a dog passes on our walk.
Now the examples I gave here are just a couple things you can do, but everything is going to work from more or less the same basic method. You are free to experiment, but try not to do it to the point where you fail a bunch and make things worse.
Jacks can be a bit challenging because they're bred to be stubborn so that they won't give up on anything. You may have to work very slowly with him.
I'll try to post a bit more on your other problems tomorrow. I know this one was a bit garbled, but I'm sick and tired, so fuck you.
Edit: I should add to all of this that when you DO introduce him to other dogs at the beginning, you're best to limit the time they have to interact. You don't necessarily have to end the interaction altogether, but say every ten seconds or so just make your dog do something for you. Again, this will help keep him from being able to focus on the other dog long enough to have problems, so the situation always stays positive. Of course, as he gets better, you will do this less and less.
Edit: I'd like to add a few things with regards to dominance that I didn't get around to mentioning last night. "Alpha" more or less doesn't actually exist. Packs are generally family groups with roles that tend to vary depending on the exact situation. Dominance itself is about resource control (and attention can be a resource), and we've seen that here too, it is very situational. The "dominant" animal also varies depending on the situation. While each animal has its own personality, they don't have very structured hierarchies (such as I'm told the case is with crows). I don't think you were actually suggesting any of the dominance stuff that I generally find to be a waste of time, but it's something to be wary of when you see a trainer use that language a lot.
Edit: Also either take the steps to get your dog to get along with your mom's, or keep them separated. If you keep allowing her dog to set your dog off, it will hinder the progress he's made elsewhere. I once had a couple come to me with a minpin who had aggression problems, and it completely slipped my mind to ask if they had another dog. Weeks went by, and we saw very little progress, which is a bit troubling when I can usually have a dog to the point where his owners don't really need me anymore within two or three. Finally it just hit me that I hadn't checked on the home situation, so I asked if there was another dog, and there was, and they hadn't been doing the training with THAT dog. Within a week of getting them to start working on the problem at home, we had improvement in leaps and bounds... speaking of which...
...as you work on your dog's behaviour, you may see it kind of jump around a bit. What I mean to say is that you may have a week where everything seems to go perfectly, and then the next week it might be almost as bad as before. Don't be startled by this; I've seen it happen with a lot of dogs, especially when working on social behaviour. Keep working on it until you have the behaviour you want consistent.
!IMPORTANT MESSAGE!
I neglected to mention this earlier, but you really need someone to show you how to actually DO some of this stuff irl. It will take some instruction as well as practice on your part to get you doing things the right way, and having someone to help you build your own confidence will help. You can try talking to local trainers, but be a bit careful, because there's a good many who will try to get you onto using wonky methods like some of the dominance ones I mentioned. An actual qualified (graduated university with the appropriate degree), experienced behaviourist is often best, but they cost money. A lot of trainers will also call themselves behaviourists incorrectly. Anyway, it's much easier for someone to work with you in person, although I'd appreciate if you ran the methods they suggest by me, because I can help you distinguish between people who know what they're doing, and ones who don't
Azisien
02-03-2009, 09:10 PM
Be careful here. A lot of what we know about canine behaviour was established through very faulty research methods, and has been debunked. A lot of "alpha" stuff will only succeed in making your animal worse. You can create habits and never have to tell your dog who's boss. I don't even like to use the word when I teach, because it tends to give people the wrong idea, then I see them doing things like biting their dog back or growling at him. Guess how effective that is.
Nothing I mentioned even tangentially suggesed biting or growling at their dog, and the methods I suggest come from the best dog trainers I've worked with and read about.
No it isn't. It's not my favourite type of distraction (mostly because it's impractical to use), but it works very well with some dogs (probably not for this particular one, but you experiment). You don't even necessarily have to spray them; sometimes just near them to stop what they're doing. Also be careful with overusing your voice, and go for sharpness when you do. You don't want to teach your dog to ignore you. You should be able to get his attention with a single syllable.
Well I guess it comes down to opinion. I'm calling it slightly abusive, though not as bad as hitting the dog. Anything a hand or object can do, with patience, your single syllable will do just as well or better.
bluestarultor
02-03-2009, 09:41 PM
I'm just going to throw my own bit into the argument here. Dogs are social animals. They are pack animals. They are this way because they are descended from wolves. Thus, yes, they stratify your family and other pets. It's thousands of years of evolution. They will pick out the dominant male and dominant female of your family naturally, at bare minimum.
In terms of intelligence, dogs are like small children. They can recognize simple words and phrases, which is why commands work. They also have roughly the same emotional development as a small child.
Consider that. Good rule of thumb, never expect out of a dog what you wouldn't expect from a little kid. They will sneak food if you let them like a kid sneaks cookies from the cookie jar. They get jealous of new members of the family, like a three-year-old wants to mail his new baby brother back to the stork. If you let them get spoiled, they can be just as hard to deal with as a rotten toddler. Like a small child, they want your approval. Like a kid, they require a certain amount of discipline. Also like a kid, they should never be abused.
If you treat a dog like you'd treat a child, you'll find that all the books in the world on animal training boil down to exactly what parents do normally. And it will be at the same time effective and less of a headache than trying to read books by people who make it sound like you need seven candles on the night of a full moon with Mars in retrograde.
BitVyper
02-04-2009, 01:10 AM
Nothing I mentioned even tangentially suggesed biting or growling at their dog
That's fine. You may notice that I didn't directly contradict any of the methods you suggested. I said "be careful of this," because I find a lot of people who get into that language start suggesting the methods I warned of.
and the methods I suggest come from the best dog trainers I've worked with and read about.
...Okay?
I'm not trying to be adversarial here. The things in your post that I outright disagreed with, I stated right in my post; there's no subtext intended. If I thought your suggestions were wrong, I would have said so. It's the language that I really wanted to address, because there are a whole lot of people out there giving pet-owners some very dangerous advice.
So to clarify, when I say "be careful of this" I don't mean to say "be careful of this guy right here," I mean "be wary about this kind of language," because I usually hear it about two seconds before someone tells me they were told to wrestle their dog to the ground.
Well I guess it comes down to opinion.
It comes down to what works for the individual dog. This is why you have to experiment a bit with any animal.
your single syllable will do just as well or better.
This depends on a whole lot of factors, and in all honesty, other things usually actually work better - especially if the voice has been overused previously - because they come as a bigger surprise. I prefer the voice or clap, however, because it's something I don't need to carry with me. You don't want to limit yourself based on the notion that using your voice is inherently better though, because you will eventually be confronted with dogs that it doesn't work on.
Edit: See, if I raise a dog from a pup, then yes, my voice will pretty much always be enough except for with a couple specific types of training. For dogs who already have problems and have had them for awhile, quite a large number have either learned to block the noise out, or have developed such a strong habit that they'll block it out anyway after the first time or two. This can be especially true of terriers, which are bred to do almost exactly that.
Edit: Oh, and I just wanted to mention something I missed before (I'm blaming the fever). Best to work on the socialization between your mom's dog and yours in an area where neither has any particular reason to be all that territorial. Outside, preferably in a calm setting, is good. By working on it in one or the other's home, not only are you immediately giving them something to compete over, but also nowhere to get away. They're already home, so where else can they go? Both of these factors serve to heighten issues like yours. I generally introduce a new dog by having him join us part way through a walk.
Azisien
02-05-2009, 02:49 PM
Ultimate take home message, yeah, don't act like Wolf Man while trying to discipline your dog.
One of the reasons I consider voice and posture (and clap too) the best tools of control goes above and beyond just having to carry them around, but because of their range of use.
What if your dog finds himself off leash and 50 feet away? You better have a powerful squirt bottle. In this respect, short syllable phrases, claps, and your posture still carry that far.
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