Discworld - I need a place to start

[MasterOfMagic]

I realize they're supposed to be independent, so I should be able to just pick up any that strike my fancy and go at it. This method really irks me when I don't have a clue about what I'm choosing, though.

So, imagine you want to get a person into the Discworld books, who knows nothing about them prior to you showing it to them. What book would you hand them first? Where would you point them after that?

[01d55]

Small Gods, then Guards Guards, and just keep on reading the City Watch books in order of publication.

[Lumenskir]

The Truth and Going Postal are the most independent books in the series I can think of, as they both have to do with new members of Ankh-Morpork who have to deal with the city on their own, so those would be a good way to get the general feel of Discworld without having to know much of the history. And, when you read them again after reading more Discworld books, you'll notice all the in-jokes you weren't aware of the first time.

There are some characters who have their own arcs. The Watch novels, about the misadventures of the city's police force, begin with Guards, Guards, and their books are uniformly great so you could always start there. The Death arc books, beginning with Mort, are also good, if a bit on the philosophic side.

[Steel Shadow]

I'd recomend you start at the beggining with Colour of Magic abd Light fantastic, and keep going in cronological order, though a lot of people say it really hits it's stride at around the fifth book Sourcery...

But yeah, if you want a specific series start with Guards and keep going with the city watch. They're the best ones.

[Fifthfiend]

I strongly advise against starting at the beginning. The tone and style really change over the course of the series so you're much better off starting in at a place where Pratchett's already worked out the tone and how his whole universe there sort of functions. Prior knowledge generally isn't a requirement for understanding the later works, in fact in places it can be an impediment, given Pratchett's fast-and-loose approach to continuity ("there are no plot holes, only alternate pasts"). It also doesn't help that the second book in is maybe the weakest book in the series so if you hit that early on it's a hump you might never get over.

The other thing is if you jump in somewhere in the middle and then work backwards it's fun to see all the bits in this or that given book that read as the ordinary backstory / character detail you'd get in any standalone novel or shorter series that'll turn out to be the subject of this or that entire novel. It really gives you a feel for the richness of the series.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I would start with "The Truth" or "Going Postal" as they some of the better ones and deal with thier own characters.
The guards books are generally the strongest but you can pick up on the characters easy enough. Starting someone on that I would give them "The Fifth Elephant" because it's indepedentely quite good and doesn't require as detailed knowledge as say Thud or Night Watch.
General rule of thumb is that the latter books are generally much better than earlier books as took Pratchett a while to really hammer down his style and get consistent humour.

[McTahr]

Reiterating what most everyone's already said.

City Watch novels are a great starting point. You just can't go wrong there.

[Damaged]

City Watch novels are, once again, a great way to get hooked. But if you prefer the darker side of things, you could take the route I took. The books, "Mort," "The Reaper Man," and "Soul Music" in that order. This trio tells the tales of my favorite character, "Death," more than the others. So, I would hand a person "Mort" as a beginner.

There are many ways to start on the books. My mother started by following the tales which focused mostly on a wizard, then deviated by following the tales of a barbarian, then again with the witches. You're eventually going to get lost, but it won't be unpleasant. Most of the tales eventually weave together at some points, making what appears to be an organized chaos of a book series.

[Mirai Gen]

Mort is good to start with, and Rincewind the Wizzard series (which is in a giant compendium I totally need to buy) pretty much goes all over the place filling you in with everything you need.

[Masaki-kun]

I like the Witches of Lancre, and of course the Watch. Try... Equal Rites on?

[BitVyper]

Reaper Man is very much a stand-alone novel, even for Discworld. It's one of my favourites too.

Myself, I started with Equal Rites.

[Mashirosen]

Another vote for starting with the Watch books -- they're very accessible and it's pretty apparent that only the Witch books come second in Pratchett's heart -- but I think it might be useful to read not only those books in publication order, but also the books that fit into that specific timeline. That way you're getting the main story of the Watch with little detours into the other Discworld storylines at the same time. My list is probably going to be a little wobbly toward the end as I've only read the Moist von Lipwig books like once, but here's the order I'd go with:

1. Guards! Guards!
2. Men At Arms
3. Small Gods - introduces you to Omnianism, which will come into play a little bit in the next book. One of the strongest books in the Discworld series.
4. Feet of Clay
5. Jingo
6. Maskerade - one of the Witch books, takes place in Ankh-Morpork with cameo appearances by Nobby and Detritus, and Vimes in references. I'm torn between wishing Pratchett had had Vimes and Granny meet and being glad he didn't.
7. Interesting Times - one of the Rincewind/Wizards books. I've arbitrarily decided to put this on the list partly because there's a minor Watchman named Ping whom I think shows up for the first time in the next book, but mostly because I love Rincewind and this is one of his better books.
8. the Fifth Elephant - Vimes goes Bond, minus the drinking and womanizing but with a lot more ass-beating to make up for it. Sets off political tensions that pay off a few books down the line.
9. the Truth - Discworld's first newspaper is born. Pratchett's said that it's become really difficult to write books set in Ankh-Morkpork without involving the Watch in some way, and it shows in this one. Still, it's interesting to see Vimes from an outside perspective for a change.
10. Night Watch - Especially since this one is all Vimes all the time. One of the strongest books in the Discworld series and arguably the best of all the Watch books.
11. Monstrous Regiment - like the Truth, another standalone entry with heavy Watch involvement. Deals a little further with the political tensions explored in the Fifth Elephant. One of my favorites, mostly for Sergeant Jackrum.
12. Thud! - also deals with some of the political fallout from the Fifth Elephant, this time between trolls and dwarfs. Not as bad as I'd thought it was the first time I read it, but I'd still call it the weakest of the Watch books. May be like the Fifth Elephant in setting up plotlines for books not yet written, though, so we'll see.
13. Going Postal and 14. Making Money - the Moist von Lipwig books, into which the Watch elbows their way yet again. I don't remember much about these two as Moist is one of the major players I don't like, but they're still fun little books.
15. After all this, do yourself a favor and read Nation. It's not a Discworld book, but it takes the central themes he's been exploring throughout the series and brings them to their culmination in the best book he's written yet. It'll be worth waiting for, promise.

I technically started reading Pratchett with Good Omens, his book with Neil Gaiman, but the first Discworld book I read was Lords and Ladies. Which goes to show that you really can jump in anyplace in the series and have a good time, as that's one of the later Witch books and builds on things that happened two books previous.

[Fifthfiend]

Reaper Man is very much a stand-alone novel, even for Discworld. It's one of my favourites too.

Myself, I started with Equal Rites.

And you kept reading after that?

Damn.

[MasterOfMagic]

I guess I'll be going out to get Gaurds, Gaurds!, since that seems to be the consensus here. I'll probably follow Mash's list after that (it looks like you put a lot of thought into it, I really appreciate it~)

Thank you, thank you. You guys are awesome.

[Meister]

And you kept reading after that?

Damn.
Equal Rites, Equal Rites, which one was-
However, the newborn child is actually a girl, Esk (full name Eskarina Smith). Since Billet notices his mistake too late, the staff passes on to her. As Esk grows up, it becomes apparent that she has uncontrollable powers, and the local witch Granny Weatherwax decides to travel with her to the Unseen University in Ankh-Morpork to help her gain the knowledge required to properly manage her powers.
Oh.

Yeah.

[Fifthfiend]

Yeah, what's great is it was even like, ten times shittier than you'd think based on that description alone. It did have a few good bits it's just that that it starts with a premise that could have been kinda-sorta interesting, then attaches Granny Insufferablebitch to it like a massive fucking plot-leech and then at that point I think the book just ducks off into a bar to numb the pain of having had anything to do with her and then sort of stumbles around drunkenly for another hundred and fifty pages with its cock hanging out of its pants.

Re: Mashirosen's list I would say save Small Gods for later, skip Maskerade entirely, and at some point in there I'd dip a toe into the Death series that runs Mort - Reaper Man - Soul Music - Hogfather - Thief of Time.

[Mirai Gen]

Out of sheer curiosity, how exactly is it that he's able to write shit like Equal Rights and then go ahead and do stuff like Mort or Hogfather, and yet he doesn't incur any real hatred other than "Man I wish you hadn't done that book"?

[Fifthfiend]

Why would he incur hatred from that? It's like, one shitty book out of a series of like 40, ain't nobody in the whole history of the world batted a thousand.

And bear in mind this is like, shitty as compared with Terry Pratchett's other books, which makes it still better than like 90% of other authors. It's not like he's got Evil Pacifists running around and a rape on every third page like some people I could name.

[Mirai Gen]

Point.
It's not like he's got Evil Pacifists running around and a rape on every third page like some people I could name.
Goodkind?

[Fifthfiend]

No, that other fantasy author with Evil Pacifists and a rape on every third page. But enough of that, this is a Pratchett thread and there's no need to drag it down with that dreck.

But yeah even on Pratchett's worst day he'll still put out a book full of fantastically imaginative ideas, keen insights into the human condition, and the bar-none best and most varied and thorougly realized characterization you'll find basically anywhere. I mean hell's bells the characters that Pratchett plays as caricatures are better characterized than what most authors will put onto a page as someone they actually expect you to identify with. I still won't say that in Equal Rites (and a few others) the negatives don't end up overwhelming those positives, but at least the book has them in the first place, which is a lot more than you can say for most writers.

[Mirai Gen]

While I totally agree I think the reason Pratchett is a favorite of mine is because sometimes he just kind of tapers off and does his own thing completely separate from the plot, and you just know that when he does it the exact answer to the question of "Why?" is simply, "Cause it's funny."

Personal favorite is his footnote with an analytical breakdown of the simile "the sun splashed over the mountain like molten gold."

[Mashirosen]

Re: Mashirosen's list I would say save Small Gods for later, skip Maskerade entirely, and at some point in there I'd dip a toe into the Death series that runs Mort - Reaper Man - Soul Music - Hogfather - Thief of Time.

Well, yeah, you hate Granny Weatherwax, of course you're going to tell him to skip a Witch book. He should at least try those books, though, and Maskerade's a conveniently located detour along the Watch series. I tried thinking of a way to work an intro to the Death books into my list, but I hate Susan about as much as you hate Granny and for likely the same reasons, so I haven't read those books in years and couldn't recall any good hooks that might lead off from the Watch books. Oh shit, that's right, there's some cute parts with Nobby in Hogfather -- make Hogfather 4.5 on the list, then.

[Fifthfiend]

Mostly I think that bringing the other books in by them linking up with the watch books seems like the wrong way to go about things; I think someone'd be better off just picking up one of the stronger books in whichever character series. Like if someone were going to read a witch book I'd say pick up Lords and Ladies or Carpe Jugulum which really dig into the witch version of Discworld magic (and for me personally where Granny doesn't get on my nerves quite so hard as Mask). Deathwise I'd say Hogfather is actually a pretty good place to start although I think for a lot of people that's the book where Susan comes off unlikeably so I'd say pick up like, Mort / Reaper Man / Soul Music / Thief beforehand.

Oh! Also Reaper Man introduces Reg Shoe who goes on to become a pretty big part of the City Watch gang so that's probably a good place to jump in, because Reg Shoe is wonderful. From there I'd say pick up Mort for backstory and then go up through Soul Music and then Hoggie.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

While I totally agree I think the reason Pratchett is a favorite of mine is because sometimes he just kind of tapers off and does his own thing completely separate from the plot, and you just know that when he does it the exact answer to the question of "Why?" is simply, "Cause it's funny."

Personal favorite is his footnote with an analytical breakdown of the simile "the sun splashed over the mountain like molten gold."

I've found his recent books to be sort of pseudo-realist which makes the tangents even funnier becaue he's got this satire of the whole style going.

As for the Witch books, I personally don't like any of them and would skip them all. But soem people like them so go figure.
But yeah Mashies list is pretty solid. Go with that.

[Mirai Gen]

I hate Susan about as much as you hate Granny and for likely the same reasons,
She wasn't so bad in Hogfather, to me, but it did start to get pretty out-there real fast.

Mort was always a favorite right after the entire Rincewind the Wizzard series. But shit, I really gotta get Watch.

[Fifthfiend]

Incidentally what I mostly dislike about Granny isn't so much that she's an unlikable jerk - I'm generally in favor of characters being flawed - so much as that in her case being an unlikable jerk is actually some wonderful service she's performing for humanity for which everyone must fall over themselves to thank her for at every opportunity. I think the ultimate Granny Weatherwax novel would be Granny kicking Magrat in the stomach like, over and over and over again, for the entire book, and then at the end some random thing from the dungeon dimension shows up and says gosh I was going to destroy Lancre and all but you just spent several days kicking this girl in the stomach so I guess I won't." And then everyone gives Mags a stern talking-to for being so whiny about her bruises. Conversely Susan is also a jerk but at least there's generally like, Quoth or Ridcully or Albert or even Death around to be like "So okay 'grats, you know how to be a jerk! Yeah, not impressing anybody".

It's the same reason I tend to dislike Carrot, I just don't much care for any character that the narrative goes out of its way to tell me I'm obligated to like.

[The Wandering God]

On Granny: I don't particulary care for the Witch series myself, by my best friend dearly loves them. It doesn't hurt that she has a lot in common with Granny.

But the idea is she IS a bitch. You don't like her because she's nice, you are supposed to like her because she does the job no one else wants. And she's been doing that for so long that it has pretty much ironed out any tolerance for, well, anything.

And the common thread between Susan and Granny is that they are both blunt and businesslike. Those traits don't really lend themselves towards a personable personality.

I just don't much care for any character that the narrative goes out of its way to tell me I'm obligated to like.
I sort of know what you mean, but I don't think Pratchett is really guilty of that. He just puts the characters out there, and it's up to the reader to decide.

The Wandering God

[01d55]

Yeah, what's great is it was even like, ten times shittier than you'd think based on that description alone. It did have a few good bits it's just that that it starts with a premise that could have been kinda-sorta interesting, then attaches Granny Insufferablebitch to it like a massive fucking plot-leech and then at that point I think the book just ducks off into a bar to numb the pain of having had anything to do with her and then sort of stumbles around drunkenly for another hundred and fifty pages with its cock hanging out of its pants.
0_oI hate Susan about as much as you hate Granny and for likely the same reasonso_0But yeah even on Pratchett's worst day he'll still put out a book full of fantastically imaginative ideas, keen insights into the human condition, and the bar-none best and most varied and thorougly realized characterization you'll find basically anywhere. I mean hell's bells the characters that Pratchett plays as caricatures are better characterized than what most authors will put onto a page as someone they actually expect you to identify with. I still won't say that in Equal Rites (and a few others) the negatives don't end up overwhelming those positives, but at least the book has them in the first place, which is a lot more than you can say for most writers.Okay before I saw this I thought I'd woken into some kind of bizzaro world - I can see people saying things like "well this one was pretty good but it's got flaws X, Y, and Z so it's not great like this other one" but the idea that there's any Terry Pratchett book that you could give someone and they wouldn't want to read more when they get done was alien to my life. Equal Rites was maybe one of the first four Discworld books I read and I liked it. If I remember right it was the first book with Munstrum Ridcully.

As for the witch books in general I really like Nanny Ogg, Granny is okay and I can't really remember much about the third one.

It's the same reason I tend to dislike Carrot, I just don't much care for any character that the narrative goes out of its way to tell me I'm obligated to like.When I was first reading about Carrot, I picked up on how all the characters feeling obligated to like him fit into the way stories bend Discworld's reality pretty quick, and it never occurred to me that we're expected to just go along with it like they do, 'cos they live in Discworld and we don't.

[Mr.Bookworm]

0_oo_0Okay before I saw this I thought I'd woken into some kind of bizzaro world - I can see people saying things like "well this one was pretty good but it's got flaws X, Y, and Z so it's not great like this other one" but the idea that there's any Terry Pratchett book that you could give someone and they wouldn't want to read more when they get done was alien to my life. Equal Rites was maybe one of the first four Discworld books I read and I liked it. If I remember right it was the first book with Munstrum Ridcully.

Allow me to express what people are getting at by saying Equal Rites sucked. It sucked in comparison to other Pratchett books.

Say we have a 1-10 scale of book goodness. A 1 would be, since Fifth brought it up, Sword of Objectivism. A 5 or 6 would be Wheel of Time. Now, let's take Night Watch for example. Night Watch is completely and utterly awesome. It scores an 17.7. This is where most of the series is.

Now, Terry Pratchett is having a bad day. He turns out Equal Rites. It would score a 8 or 9, because the point I'm trying to make is that even Terry Pratchett's shit is still really damn good.

[Fifthfiend]

you are supposed to like her

He just puts the characters out there, and it's up to the reader to decide.

you are supposed to like her

He just puts the characters out there, and it's up to the reader to decide.

you are supposed to like her

He just puts the characters out there, and it's up to the reader to decide.

Hey guys I'll be back to argue with WG's post as soon as WG's post is done arguing with WG's post.

Okay no but seriously yes Pratchett does put the characters out there, and in the case of Granny he puts the character out there as without exception good and right and deserving of the adulation of any character unlucky enough to cross into her bullying asshole field.

And that "job nobody else wants to do" bit wouldn't be so hard to buy if there weren't loads of people who want to do the job she does to whom she's a total, total asshole until they try to stop doing it, for which of course she's exactly and always one hundred percent completely justified.

But maybe you're right and it is up to the reader to decide, in which case I've decided that she's a godawful, truly loathesome character who exists in a universe where nobody is ever going to call her in any way, shape or form on being such a truly godawful and loathesome character and I just don't like reading novels about that sort of thing.

[The Wandering God]

Hey guys I'll be back to argue with WG's post as soon as WG's post is done arguing with WG's post.
Once again, your wit flies into action much like a bad taco through my digestive tract.

Okay no but seriously yes Pratchett does put the characters out there, and in the case of Granny he puts the character out there as without exception good and right and deserving of the adulation of any character unlucky enough to cross into her bullying asshole field.
Maybe you're just upset at how much she reminds you... OF YOU! *DUN DUN DUN* Or, yeah she can be a hardass, but she has never described herself as "good" to my recollection. Right, yes, good, no. And she doesn't want adoration so much as appreciation. (Keep in my, she is one of my least favorite Pratchett characters and I am playing devil's advocate.)

And that "job nobody else wants to do" bit wouldn't be so hard to buy if there weren't loads of people who want to do the job she does to whom she's a total, total asshole until they try to stop doing it, for which of course she's exactly and always one hundred percent completely justified.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't loads of people who want to be a witch, and more specifically, the crone. (My best example is when she's called to the farm when a birth goes wrong and Granny has to decide who lives and who dies. That's not a job I want, anway.)

But maybe you're right and it is up to the reader to decide, in which case I've decided that she's a godawful, truly loathesome character who exists in a universe where nobody is ever going to call her in any way, shape or form on being such a truly godawful and loathesome character and I just don't like reading novels about that sort of thing.
That is perfectly fine. I myself don't care for the witch series myself. I'm just trying to be fair. (Also, Pratchett has strongly hinted that Granny is hard on herself. I believe Nanny Ogg uses something along the lines of, "Imagine having Granny look over your shoulder all the time. That's what it's like for her." And don't forget all the family history that she has to live up (or down) to.)

The Wandering God

[Jeneralissimo]

("there are no plot holes, only alternate pasts")

Wait a sec, when did Terry start writing for Heroes? (How awesome would that be, by the way.)

I started at the beginning and read almost all the Rincewind novels. I've been reading then in order since then. I love the Death books as well. Mort actually made me cry a little, which sounds crazy but Terry is just that good of a writer that he can make you laugh and cry. Granny isn't my favorite character either, but I may just have been drinking Fifth's poisoned Kool-aid for too long.

[Mirai Gen]

How could Mort make you cry?

Actually in the climax there's that hourglass that falls and nearly breaks leaving the guy broken and stranded up the side of the mountain faced with the impossible task of getting back while crippled, that was pretty funny, yeah.

[Fifthfiend]

Mort totally made me cry, and then Reaper Man made my cry like a sad little girl whose prettiest dolly got taken away.

I am playing devil's advocate

Bah! I have no time for people who cannot argue from a position of sincerity!

(And am totally NOT using that as my excuse to dodge your observation of my own similarities to Granny vis-a-vis being a total jerk asshole SO THERE)

[01d55]

(And am totally NOT using that as my excuse to dodge your observation of my own similarities to Granny vis-a-vis being a total jerk asshole SO THERE)

And yet your sympathy clearly rests with Magrat, the one who's basically a hippie.

That's what this is really about, isn't it? You put up a good front (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=894018&postcount=2), but underneath you're basically a big softie (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=847889&postcount=51).

When Pratchett writes Granny being short with Magrat, you see your self-conception trying to get a guy hooked on meth when you really just wanna give him a hug (and get him hooked on soy). And that's why it makes you so angry!

[Arhra]

Hmmm, I don't remember Equal Rights as being that bad. I also don't mind Granny Weatherwax. Am... am I a bad person?

Anyway, the Granny Weatherwax in Equal Rites is so different from her later appearances she's almost a different character.

Much like the original Death. What a jerk!

Now the book I remember that I found underwhelming back when I first read it was Jingo. Something just didn't click for me. I enjoyed it more when I reread it a few years later, but it was still pretty average.

I found I loved Thud!, probably mainly for that thing Vimes does at the end. You know what I'm talking about.

[Fifthfiend]

I found I loved Thud!, probably mainly for that thing Vimes does at the end. You know what I'm talking about.

Vimes does a number of things at the end that are all pretty bitchin', I couldn't say in particular which one you're talking about. Speaking personally I really enjoyed the bit where the Low King wants him to hand over the cube and Vimes tells him to take it, with the Summoning Darkness mark on his wrist. The moment sort of just generally summed up a whole lot of quintessential Vimesiness.

Anyway I found I also really liked Thud for the way it developed a piece of the Discworld's mythology in a really interesting way. And just for where it had a particularly strong bit of something I generally enjoy in the series which is the feeling that the Discworld is, for all its faults and flaws, a place where things ultimately will work out probably more or less for the best.

[Mirai Gen]

And just for where it had a particularly strong bit of something I generally enjoy in the series which is the feeling that the Discworld is, for all its faults and flaws, a place where things ultimately will work out probably more or less for the best.

See this is the thing that really captivates me in fiction today, but finding it is like striking gold. Why is everything so dark and morbid and 'mature' all the time? Why is it so impossible for me to find some fun, enjoyable story about a couple of guys that isn't laced with overarching meaning and theme and is just about beating up bad guys?

Pratchett to the rescue!

[Token]

I suggest Mort, Reaper Man, Soul Music, Thief of Time and Hogfather, but then again, DEATH is my favorite character. Of course, I cheated, and "started" with Good Omens, which turned me on to TLF.

[Wigmund]

I saw start with the Color of Magic, and then just read them in the rough order they were released. You don't have to do this for the various story-arcs (Vimes & the City Watch, Granny & the Witches, DEATH, the Unseen University Faculty, etc.) but I've found it quite useful as you'll get little aside mentions that come from the other stories. And you can really see how Pratchett's vision of the Disc changed over the stories, really neat how it went from nothing more than a fantasy world parody to what it is now.

Vimes does a number of things at the end that are all pretty bitchin', I couldn't say in particular which one you're talking about. Speaking personally I really enjoyed the bit where the Low King wants him to hand over the cube and Vimes tells him to take it, with the Summoning Darkness mark on his wrist. The moment sort of just generally summed up a whole lot of quintessential Vimesiness.

I particularly liked the scenes just before that...IS THAT MY COW?

[Arhra]

Oh let's face it - everything after he falls down that hole is golden.

[Satan's Onion]

I really liked Death's near-Vimes experience. Without it, I figure the book's climactic events would probably become way the hell too tense and dramatic for the Discworld series' good. Also, if I remember right, it was a delightful little nugget of metacommentary.