Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[BitVyper]

Sure be funny if what actually happened was that Dave's honed reflexes caused him to roll over and parry, and then there was a cool Dave vs Dave fight. Dead Daves are the enemy.

Pretty much expecting sleeping Dave to get killed though.

Edit: Old news probably, but I just noticed this:

Early on playing John: "Films about impending apocalypse fascinate you."
Early on playing Vriska: "You are something of an APOCALYPSE BUFF, which is something you can be on Alternia. You are fascinated by end of the world scenarios"

+1 Shipping points.

[Arcanum]

I don't get why everyone's getting all up in a rage about John and Dave's Quest Bed deaths. Like I said before, it adds a higher purpose to their dreamselves. Not only that, but technically their real selves are ectobio-clones, whereas their dreamselves are constructs of the Incipisphere, thus making them "more real"(for lack of a better term) in the Incipisphere than their ectobio-clone "real selves." At least that's the way I see it.

And on top of that I doubt Rose or Jade are going to be following suit anytime soon. For one Jade's dreamself is already dead. And as for Rose, she still intends to use her dreamself on her alleged suicide mission. And even if that doesn't happen, isn't her dreamself still (half?)doomed? Since her dreamself from Davesprite's timeline was merged with Alpha timeline Rose's dreamself. I am unsure on the precise degree of doom her dreamself suffers, but I'm sure it's there.

[Art of Hilt]

someone somewhere else mentioned the possibility that the 'resurrection' that occurs when you die on a Quest Bed might include Jade's dreamself, since John's dreamself was also injured and resurrected

i doubt it though

especially considering that Jade would essentially have to risk killing herself for nothing

[POS Industries]

http://i54.tinypic.com/2ls89xh.png


http://i56.tinypic.com/2gxhedx.png
I don't know what this is.

[Kim]

I don't know what this is.

I want to make a witty retort, but I think you come out on top this time simply for not reading Bleach.

EDIT: KARKACHIGO!

http://i56.tinypic.com/k4wkuw.png

[BitVyper]

especially considering that Jade would essentially have to risk killing herself for nothing

Who says she has to die on the quest bed? Vriska's comments suggested that at least some of the others hit the god tiers, and they all still had both dream selves and non until recently.

At any rate; if it's part of a time loop, then it'll happen regardless. I'm not sure what's going to happen there, myself. We'll see.

[Geminex]

Default Also, I'm totally in the mood to do requests right now if anyone has any good ones.
Yoruipeta!

[Aldurin]

NonCon, do one for Doc Scratch.

[Dracorion]

Who says she has to die on the quest bed? Vriska's comments suggested that at least some of the others hit the god tiers, and they all still had both dream selves and non until recently.

Do we? We know Karkat never reached the god tiers, and that's because his dream self didn't wake up until the last moment.

Feferi visits the Furthest Ring when she sleeps, but that may be because her current body is her dream self now.

I think the only other one we know can't reach the god tiers is Aradia. Not that she'd need to.

That being said, yeah, there's probably a few more Trolls that still had dreamselves or Karkat wouldn't have had to tell anyone not to sleep. Not all of them though.

[Loyal]

Well, we know Tavros had his until the end. I believe Nepeta had as well.

[BitVyper]

Feferi visits the Furthest Ring when she sleeps, but that may be because her current body is her dream self now.

Her dream self died when Jack blew up Derse. She was asleep at the time, and wouldn't wake up.

We know Karkat never reached the god tiers, and that's because his dream self didn't wake up until the last moment.

We don't know that he never reached the god tiers and we don't know that waking up is necessary to reach the god tiers. Likely as that stuff seems, the only thing that has been said is that you have to sleep on your quest bed. And that's been said by an unreliable source. Karkat hardly slept during their adventure. He still did sleep. That said, out of all the trolls, he seems like the most likely to have not hit the god tiers.

Karkat's lines in the playable segment imply pretty strongly that most dream selves were still kicking before Jack blew shit up. Karkat's conversation with Feferi flat out states that her dream self is still alive. Vriska tells us that Terezi never lost hers, Tavros was there when Jack attacked, and I'm pretty sure there was a line about Nepeta's dream self too.

I think the only other one we know can't reach the god tiers is Aradia.

We don't really know that. Aradia is such a special case, being a ghost/kernelsprite/robot that it's pretty much impossible to tell which rules apply to her and which ones don't.

Edit: Duuuur, Jack attacked, not Lord English. Slip of the internet tongue.

[Kim]

Seeing as she doesn't have her original body back, it seems unlikely that she's God Tier.

EDIT: I'm going to do a Dave, since I couldn't find a good pic of what I wanted to do for DaveSprite, so I'll finish that up, post it, and then I'll get started on requests, though how I want to go about doing Doc Scratch will be a difficult decision to make. Rules aren't exactly the same for photoshopping him.

[Malek]

We don't even know for sure whether, if you do die, that it has to be on the quest bed. Possibly if you died before hand, and your corpse was taken to the quest bed then that would be enough to trigger the transformation, which could be how Vriska managed it. Maybe we'll be shown how the trolls who reached their god tiers did so, to clarify what conditions it can occur under.

Also, I'm starting to get the feeling that Vriska is going to use her powers to wake Dave up before future Dave can kill him in order to fuck things up for him in some way.

[BitVyper]

Also, I'm starting to get the feeling that Vriska is going to use her powers to wake Dave up before future Dave can kill him in order to fuck things up for him in some way.

Yeah. Yeah, I can see that happening, actually.

[Specterbane]

But if that's the god tier Dave then she couldn't have, because that would cause a splinter timeline.

[Kim]

We don't know that it's God Tier Dave. For all we know, Dave went there to stab himself so when he woke up he'd see himself about to stab himself because that's what happened and he didn't want to create a splinter timeline. Unlikely, but time shit is weird.

[BitVyper]

But if that's the god tier Dave then she couldn't have, because that would cause a splinter timeline.

That's god tier Dave?

[Pip Boy]

I think Dave just thought that he should probably go there just because thats what he should do, and if he does that everything'll probably shake out just fine. Part of the beauty of not making splinter timelines is shooting from the hip and taking things as they come, not overthinking it or planning too far ahead.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Karkat and Tavros both woke up on Prospit when Bec Noir destroyed it, not the battlefield. I don't think they did the god tier stuff.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I want to make a witty retort, but I think you come out on top this time simply for not reading Bleach.

EDIT: KARKACHIGO!

http://i56.tinypic.com/k4wkuw.png

Equius + Ishidia = Equishida

[Pip Boy]

Karkat and Tavros both woke up on Prospit when Bec Noir destroyed it, not the battlefield. I don't think they did the god tier stuff.

Yes, but hadn't even John woken up, however briefly, on the battlefield before his actual quest bed awakening? He got the teddy bear package and ran off the currently only kind-of-omnipotent Jack Noir. Then he fell back to sleep again. Then he woke up again. My point being that an awakening at some time on Prospit/wherever doesn't necessarily mean there can be no reawakening on the quest bed.

EDIT: To clarify, I think an "awakening" on the quest bed refers less to awakening one's dream-self and more to the awakening of one's own inner potential, such as the Windy Thingy.

[Bard The 5th LW]

My point was that you have to be on the battlefield for your dreamself to get in the questbed. John got there unconventionally beforehand.

If you aren't on the battlefield, then you probably haven't gone god-tier.

Edit: We just got confirmation that Vriska was the only one to go god tier.

Also Terezi is going down a bad road.

[BitVyper]

Karkat and Tavros both woke up on Prospit when Bec Noir destroyed it

Tavros woke up ages before that. He spent most of their session on it. He could have gone all over the place and back. However, I kinda doubt he made god tier anyway.

Anyway, Terezi's comments lend themselves a lot more to you-have-to-die-on-your-quest-bed reasoning.

My point was that you have to be on the battlefield for your dreamself to get in the questbed.

I don't really count formspring comments as evidence of anything, but Hussie certainly suggests another interpretation. (http://www.formspring.me/andrewhussie/q/1888049006)

[Art of Hilt]

oh god damn it terezi
or should I say GALLOWSCALIBRATOR
since i am getting the vibes i got from when that was her only name
god damn it gallowsCalibrator

[Dracorion]

So Vriska really is higher on the echeladder.

Goddammit fuck you Hussie.

[Flarecobra]

Strike him down, and he'll become more powerful then we can possably imagine.

[BitVyper]

At any rate, regardless of exactly what is and isn't necessary for God Tier, I think John's the only human who is going to do the whole rebirth and ascension thing. Maaaaaybe Rose in some way.

I'm still thinking there's other ways though.

Edit: I should point out that Terezi only says the only one troll managed to face their death on the quest bed. That does suggest that she's probably the only one who made god tier, buuuut it's not outright saying it.


Anyway, God Tier obviously means fully realising ones' role as the Blank of Blank, but this game is all about choices, and I don't think one is necessarily superior here. I think this explains more of Vriska's behaviour. Previous comments have suggested that neither self can really be expended without losing something. In this case, it seems like that something is mortality/humanity/trollanity, like burning it away to become immortal. The upshot is obviously power and other benefits. There's probably a price though.

At any rate, I'm changing my mind: I think it's death-or-bust for the God Tier.

[The Argent Lord]

Previous comments have suggested that neither self can really be expended without losing something. In this case, it seems like that something is mortality/humanity/trollanity, like burning it away to become immortal. The upshot is obviously power and other benefits. There's probably a price though.

If that's the case, I think there's a good argument to be made for John becoming Lord English. Even moreso if we take the paradox-route that's been suggested that has the kids creating the Trolls' universe with their session.

[Doc ock rokc]

If that's the case, I think there's a good argument to be made for John becoming Lord English. Even moreso if we take the paradox-route that's been suggested that has the kids creating the Trolls' universe with their session.

maybe it's Alternate Dave that becomes Lord English. Think about it. All of the FELT have Temporal powers. Dave 2 is wearing a FELT suit. if he ascends then English is the one that will manipulate time and case a Scratch. combining the Troll and human sessions.

[BitVyper]

Lord English is obviously Rose's bankai. I thought everyone knew that.

[Fifthfiend]

duu it dave

kill yousef

[Aldurin]

Of course there has to be an awkward pesterlog before this with "I don't remember doing this" and then finding out that Terezi is essentially dooming himself to become his own fodder.

Also, just freakin' do it already Dave, the stuff about how this isn't suspenseful makes it even more so.

WHAT DID YOU DO TEREZI?

[Marc v4.0]

Lord English is, and clearly always has been, the coat rack the coat was on.

Clever bastard was there the whole time

[Loyal]

You are now imagining Dave saying the "gotta beat John" line with this (http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?33556-MSPA-Fan-Arts-23-W-E-R-E-WATCH)(ING-YOU-DRAW!&p=4348478&viewfull=1#post4348478) pose.

[Kim]

Took me a second to figure out how this actually worked, but I'm good now.

Since this will actually leave Normal Dave alive while still creating Hero Dave, giving him an edge over John, I think I can see Hero Dave becoming Lord English. OR Hero Dave gets created, then murdered on HIS QuestBed, turning Normal Dave into Hero Hero Dave or something. Fuck if I know.

[Arcanum]

Am I the only one who thinks this would be an awesome new thread title?

wild cherry apeshit apocalypse

[Wigmund]

Xanatos would be proud.

[Bard The 5th LW]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/508439/Images/mspa/Unreal_Heir.png (http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?33556-MSPA-Fan-Arts-23-W-E-R-E-WATCH)(ING-YOU-DRAW!&p=4404139&viewfull=1#post4404139)

Unreal Heir

[Fifthfiend]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Pip Boy]

Holy shit, its like Schroeder's cat, except both instances of the cat simultaneously exist in the same universe! Half of me wants to say "This is not how time travel works!" The other half wants me to say "Terezi you kick so much ass". The other half of me wants to replicate this event so that those other who halves of me could exist as wholes and fight to the death to determine which is the correct sentiment.

[Kim]

Actually, it is how time travel works, I think. Since the timeline branches at that point, if he travels back in time he can theoretically travel back to before the timeline split. If both of them do this, they can encounter each other. At least, I think that's the logic at work here.

[Arcanum]

Since the timeline branches at that point, if he travels back in time he can theoretically travel back to before the timeline split. If both of them do this, they can encounter each other.

That's actually what's happening right now.

Also this is probably another one of those instances where a doomed timeline is necessary for the Alpha timeline to continue, a la Davesprite.

[Fifthfiend]

I'm mostly not seeing how the timeline splits given that flipping a coin/the options dave assigns to either outcome should be just as deterministic of an act as any other thing that's happened in this comic.

The story switched from offshoot timelines being created / cut off in a basically deterministic manner to like, many-universes time travel but ALSO still deterministic because the plot says so.

[Kim]

I'm mostly not seeing how the timeline splits given that flipping a coin should be just as deterministic of an act as any other thing that's happened in this comic.

Exactly. This is my main problem with it. Theoretically, alternate timeline Daves who have traveled to the past for whatever reason should be showing up left and right, but they aren't. Were it not for that, I could accept that the timeline is branching regularly and we just aren't seeing the branches.

That's actually what's happening right now.

That was my point. I mean, Davesprite proves that this is possible. My only problem is the one above.

[Fifthfiend]

Like basically as I understood it, branch timelines occur when a Dave goes back in time, influencing events in the main timeline such that the timeline that Dave came from never occured. Like:

John gets self killed -> Dave / Rose stuck in game -> Dave goes back and gets John not to get himself killed -> John lives, so the timeline where John dies, now, never took place.

Or

Dave time travels back in order to get book before it's stolen -> Dave gets killed -> Dave sees time-displaced corpse in present, decides not to go back in order to get book, so the timeline where Dave goes back, now, never takes place.

In this case it seems like it's supposed to be that Dave picks one set of outcomes in the branch timeline and one in the main timeline even though there's nothing that would cause his choice to be any different in the main timeline than it would in the branch one. But at the same time the branch timeline is still a branch timeline just because... it is?

EDIT: I guess it's possible that the doomed-timeline Dave had some as yet unseen interaction with main-timeline Dave that would have resulted in him choosing differently?

[Arcanum]

This would make a lot more sense if Terezi deliberately altered the result of the coinflip, thus purposefully creating the branching timeline. However the way she says it, it doesn't look like that's the case and it was just Dave's decision that was different, which brings up the problem you guys mentioned. I'm hoping this gets cleared up in the next page or two.

[Aldurin]

All I see coming out of this is another Dave corpse for the pile, which has been determined to be a bad thing.

Also this brings up the question of who gets dreamself usage in a stable time loop? For example if Jack appeared out of nowhere and killed both Daves in the same blow which would become hero Dave given that they are both on the quest bed?

I mean I kinda don't maybe not get it. At least this time it's pretty freakin' obvious I'm not getting what's going on here.

[POS Industries]

This would make a lot more sense if Terezi deliberately altered the result of the coinflip, thus purposefully creating the branching timeline. However the way she says it, it doesn't look like that's the case and it was just Dave's decision that was different, which brings up the problem you guys mentioned. I'm hoping this gets cleared up in the next page or two.
The problem is that Terezi isn't part of any offshoot timelines in the kids' universe. She can only interact with the alpha timeline, and only the alpha timeline can have interactions with the trolls. Thus, there can't be an alternate timeline where she did something different, she had to set up a scenario where the choice Dave made would create an alternate timeline that would do the exact thing she wanted.

Like basically as I understood it, branch timelines occur when a Dave goes back in time, influencing events in the main timeline such that the timeline that Dave came from never occured.
The branch timelines aren't really a Dave-dependent thing. It's just that the only time we, viewing the alpha timeline, are made aware of any alternate timelines is when a doomed Dave shows up. But there's probably a whole bunch of them, it's just that the vast majority of them don't involve Dave going back to a point on the alpha timeline and changing the course of history to the one we're privy to.

[Kim]

NonCon, do one for Doc Scratch.

WISH GRANTED

http://i51.tinypic.com/20r1aqb.png

[Dracorion]

This would make a lot more sense if Terezi deliberately altered the result of the coinflip, thus purposefully creating the branching timeline. However the way she says it, it doesn't look like that's the case and it was just Dave's decision that was different, which brings up the problem you guys mentioned. I'm hoping this gets cleared up in the next page or two.

Clearly Vriska did it.

Because Vriska.

VRIIIIIISSSKKAAAAAAA

[POS Industries]

Clearly Vriska did it.

Because Vriska.

VRIIIIIISSSKKAAAAAAA
TG: i wonder if this can finally be the conversation that doesnt deteriorate into a lot of bitching and moaning about her

[EVILNess]

I have a question for you guys.

Does it ever "Make Sense?"

[PCD]

Once I thought it was starting to, a little bit...

then we got to the trollmances.

[synkr0nized]

Xanatos would be proud.

hahah Hell Yes.

[The Argent Lord]

I have a question for you guys.

Does it ever "Make Sense?"

I guess that depends. Are you confused in that you don't know what's happening, or confused in that what's happening doesn't necessarily have explanations? Because if it's the first, no. Generally it was pretty clear what was going on, if not why or what crazy internal logic this world is running on.

[Fifthfiend]

I have a question for you guys.

Does it ever "Make Sense?"

http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/1654/03091.gif

[Wigmund]

Everyone who's fretting out over the temporal logistics of this Pyrope Gambit just needs to remember the following:
It's just a webcomic, you really should just relax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-iMLKhdTE&feature=related)

[Fifthfiend]

Everyone who's fretting out over the temporal logistics of this Pyrope Gambit just needs to remember the following:
It's just a webcomic, you really should just relax (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)

This thread is now an intervention for Wigmund's out of control TVTropes binging.

We're not judging you Wiggles. We just want to help

[Wigmund]

There's nothing wrong with being addicted to TVTropes...
I mean, look at all this awesome stuff in the Homestuck (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Homestuck) entry.

[Kim]

I mean, look at all this awesome stuff in the Homestuck (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Homestuck) entry.

NO.

[POS Industries]

This thread is now an intervention for Wigmund's out of control TVTropes binging.

We're not judging you Wiggles. We just want to help
I assumed it was a link to the MST3K opening, which would have been cooler and more apropos, but since I've seen it a million times, I didn't click on it.

I'm going to keep assuming that anyway, and continue not clicking on it, because it makes my little world I live in that much better.

[Wigmund]

You mean my link was something other than a link to the Season 10 version of the MST3K opening?

Goddamn, you guys are insane.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I'm under the impression that Terezi flipped the coin, and told one Dave the truth about the flip. This is the Dave we've been following, or Alpha Dave.

She then proceeded to go back to that same point and lie about it to Dave. This caused a paradox offshoot and is the doomed Dave.

Edit: I have assembled a guide. It probably serves no purpose since its either old news/explains nothing.

It was fun though.

http://oi55.tinypic.com/nmxqbr.jpg

[Aldurin]

I still don't get it.

[POS Industries]

She then proceeded to go back to that same point and lie about it to Dave. This caused a paradox offshoot and is the doomed Dave.
No, she couldn't have done that because there wasn't a second Dave for her to go back and lie to. All that would have happened was that the same Dave would have gotten trolled by two different Terezis.

The only really irrelevant thing here is the coin flip itself. Terezi flipped a coin and then left it up to Dave to decide what the flip meant. Which basically means that she told Dave to choose to do one of two things and then flipped a coin for no reason like a dink. In the alpha timeline, Dave chose to do nothing. In the other, Dave chose to go back in time to a point on the alpha timeline, creating a second Dave who was then instructed by Terezi to go to sleep on the questbed.

[Loyal]

There's nothing wrong with being addicted to TVTropes...
I mean, look at all this awesome stuff in the Homestuck (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Homestuck) entry.

Man, fuck the Homestuck entry. Every time Andrew posts an update people climb over each other trying to be the first to tie the latest comic to a trope that doesn't actually apply to it, and I end up spending hours combing over each of the sub-pages (which split into yet more sub-subpages, because the subpages themselves got that damn huge and broke the server) trying to un-shittify the entries.

I mean at this point the Homestuck page exists for the benefit of the people who write the fucking thing more than anyone who would actually read it (which is to say, nobody at all, because who wants to spend that much time reading that much horseshit?).

[Geminex]

I still don't get it.

I CAN'T HEEEEAR YOUUU (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1051573&postcount=1)

I kinda get it. Terezi creates a doomed timeline by way of the coin toss (and I do think the coin toss factors into it), where one of the options she gives Dave is one that creates a time paradox and would, theoretically, stop the coin toss from taking place in the first place (because offspring future Dave would be sleeping, rather the helping alpha past dave) Offspring Dave travels back in time to before the timeline split. As an individul, he's still doomed, but he's in the subjective past, and is influencing the future. In this case, by demonstrating very clearly to Dave what exactly he'd need to do.

And Fifth made a point about how there aren't any other offshoot Daves travelling back in time...
I'm guessing that, once the trolls come into play, they prevent the kids from creating any more offshoot timelines.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that offshoot timelines can be created only by time travel, or by troll interference. I don't have much evidence for that, but that's the only two ways it's happened so far.

[POS Industries]

And Fifth made a point about how there aren't any other offshoot Daves travelling back in time...
As I said, I think it's to be assumed that the vast majority of alternate timelines don't involve a Dave showing up on the alpha timeline.

[Dracorion]

Goddammit Gem why would you link to that horrible thread?

[Geminex]

As I said, I think it's to be assumed that the vast majority of alternate timelines don't involve a Dave showing up on the alpha timeline.
Hmm... different points, really.
I'm saying that there's a pretty major limit to timelines. You're saying that when timelines come to exist, they don't interfere with the past. Different points. They're not mutually exclusive, though.

Goddammit Gem why would you link to that horrible thread?
Spite.

Now, excuse me, I have chatlogs to write and strategies to work out.

[Aldurin]

Isn't that even more evidence as to the fact that I DON'T GET THIS WEIRD TIME SHIT?

[POS Industries]

Hmm... different points, really.
I'm saying that there's a pretty major limit to timelines. You're saying that when timelines come to exist, they don't interfere with the past. Different points. They're not mutually exclusive, though.
True. The only alternate timelines that we ever have to give a shit about are the ones with Daves popping up.

Also, it just occurred to me that the timeline split may not have been a result of Dave's deciding which side meant what before she flipped as much as it was whether or not Dave stuck to his decision after the fact, since he would have had to make the choice before she flipped, which means the timeline would have split BEFORE she flipped, which means one of the Daves never would have known what the result was.

So basically in one timeline, Dave lied.

[Art of Hilt]

That's possible, unless the timeline doesn't split until Terezi tells him the result and he acts on it. Before then the decision would have only existed in his head and he'd have no incentive to act on it. Only after he is told the results of the time flip does the decision have any practical bearing on the timeline.

This is why Terezi told him not to tell her his decision beforehand.

Offshoot Dave lost contact with her the moment he was told the result. Luckily, since he went back in time immediately to sleep on the Quest Bed in the alpha timeline, he didn't notice that the timeline he just abandoned was a doomed one.

It's all pretty clever of Terezi, really.

It's also pretty cruel. Not only is there now a doomed Dave on the bed placed there specifically by her machinations to die, but also an entire doomed timeline from which Dave never returns, and the kids in it are inevitably doomed as well.

[POS Industries]

Still wouldn't work, because as soon as he made the decision, even if he didn't act on it, it would have technically been a separate timeline because he did something different, if only in his head, and he would have lost contact with Terezi.

[Art of Hilt]

It does because the decision and him acting on it is defined by him being told the result, though. He would not act on it without being told the toss. In fact, until then, it is irrelevant and only exists in his head as the stuff of fantasy.
Because what if it landed on the Good Heads instead? From Dave's perspective, that was still a possibility. Dave did not know that it will always be Bad Heads across all possible timelines. The idea that this decision would split the timeline did not ever come to mind. The illusion of the Good Head kept him from making an actual decision that splits the timeline.
That's why the decision doesn't create a split until after he's told the result. It's also why it's was so crucial that he was given instructions on what to do before he was told the result. Including not telling Terezi his decision out loud.
So basically the split happens after he's told the result, and the inclusion of the coin and the illusion of chance was constructed by Terezi specifically so that this would happen.

[POS Industries]

But when he made the decision, that already created two different Daves. One Dave decided that the coin flip meant one thing, the other Dave decided the opposite. That's already two different timelines. Two different Daves.

[Art of Hilt]

But it was still "up in the air" because he didn't know the results of the coin flip, because to him it could have still been Good Heads and he would have done the opposite.
At most it was a framework of how a future decision was to be made, immaterial on its own without knowledge of the coin flip's results.

[POS Industries]

It doesn't matter if what manual action he would have taken was still "up in the air" because he already made the decision before the flip.

Even if he'd done the exact same thing afterward in both timelines, it would have still been two separate timelines that moved on exactly the same way, except in one he had one thought and in the other he had a different thought. Thinking isn't magically exempt from altering the course of history on a temporal level.

[Marc v4.0]

I'm not seeing where people aren't getting it. She explained it rather clearly and, frankly, it's the most un-bullshit time bullshit I have ever seen.

[POS Industries]

Actually, now that I think about it, the only way that this does work the way Terezi explained it is if thought really is magically exempt from altering the flow of time, which is technically complete bullshit on a realistic level but pretty much nothing about the entire premise of this comic is really grounded in any sort of reality.

So I ain't gonna pitch a fit about it.

[Art of Hilt]

It doesn't matter if what manual action he would have taken was still "up in the air" because he already made the decision before the flip.

That decision leads to the split, yes, but it is not the cause of the split by itself. The split happens after he is told the result. Because before he is told the result, he had no practical course of action, just the possibility of it.

The 'decision' to assign one to the other was essential to the split, but by no means was it the only cause of it. It was one part of Terezi's machinations, the other being her telling him the result and having him lock down on the thought and turn it into a practical decision. It was the first strike of the one-two punch, basically.

I mean that's pretty much how it's described in the comic, so *shrug*

[POS Industries]

I mean that's pretty much how it's described in the comic, so *shrug*
In all fairness, I learned a long-ass time ago to take anything Terezi says with a grain of salt.

[Fifthfiend]

As I said, I think it's to be assumed that the vast majority of alternate timelines don't involve a Dave showing up on the alpha timeline.

The thing of this is that a lot of bother was put into establishing that these offshoot timelines literally don't exist once their initial link to the alpha timeline is severed.

If a timeline ceases to exist once it no longer connects to the initiating timeline then having infinite timelines doesn't seem tenable unless there's some separate rule for those.

EDIT I guess the entire thing holds together IF the green-suited Dave is created first, and then his presence earlier in the timeline results in some kind of indirect influence that results in the main-timeline Dave choosing differently (but not so much influence that he changes anything that would keep the entire coinflip thing from happening). But that's kind of just.. uggggggggh, you know?

hours combing over

This is now an intervention for Wiggles and Loyal's out of control TVTropes habits.

[POS Industries]

The thing of this is that a lot of bother was put into establishing that these offshoot timelines literally don't exist once their initial link to the alpha timeline is severed.

If a timeline ceases to exist once it no longer connects to the initiating timeline then having infinite timelines doesn't seem tenable unless there's some separate rule for those.
I don't know if it necessarily needs a rule if, by and large, they are irrelevant to the story. Alternate timelines like the one where John died or the one where Dave went back and got killed by Droog in the alpha timeline ceased to be, but then all the ones we haven't seen and will never see because they aren't important kept on keeping on to whatever their unfortunate conclusion probably was.

In this case, the timeline that this new alternate Dave is from won't cease to be, because its Dave going back in time apparently won't have any bearing on its creation. It will just continue on, completely fucked with no Dave or trolls, and we'll probably never hear from it again.

[Loyal]

This is now an intervention for Wiggles and Loyal's out of control TVTropes habits.

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Fifthfiend]

When you hit rock bottom, just know that we'll be here to pick you up again.

[Dracorion]

Offshoot Dave lost contact with her the moment he was told the result. Luckily, since he went back in time immediately to sleep on the Quest Bed in the alpha timeline, he didn't notice that the timeline he just abandoned was a doomed one.

Small clarification: Terezi is able to see this new offshoot Dave on her viewport, and Davesprite was able to talk to her before.

So alternate Daves are able to talk to the Trolls if they go back to the alpha timeline. Though, yeah, offshoot Dave would've lost contact with her until he went back.

Carry on.

[Token]

Man, fuck the Homestuck entry. Every time Andrew posts an update people climb over each other trying to be the first to tie the latest comic to a trope that doesn't actually apply to it, and I end up spending hours combing over each of the sub-pages (which split into yet more sub-subpages, because the subpages themselves got that damn huge and broke the server) trying to un-shittify the entries.

I mean at this point the Homestuck page exists for the benefit of the people who write the fucking thing more than anyone who would actually read it (which is to say, nobody at all, because who wants to spend that much time reading that much horseshit?).

Same here. Shit drives me crazy. :/

UPDATE EDIT: The command lied. Dave showed none of his stabs. None of them.

[Dracorion]

Clearly, the only possible course of action is for Dave to stab himself.

Non-doomed future Dave stabbing himself (non-doomed future Dave), I mean.

EDIT: NO WAIT I GOT IT.

Dave is going to toss the sword into the air, and then fall asleep on his quest bed. Then the sword will fall on either Dave. That way, Dave can be free of any responsibility even though paradox space is obviously going to make the sword fall on doomed Dave.

[Art of Hilt]

alpha dave is going to shove doomed dave off the bed and THEN murder him
because he doesn't want to risk giving a doomed him superpowers while still proving he can kill himself when he needs to
it is going to be hella grisly

[Aldurin]

TROLLS HAVE NOSES!!

[Fifthfiend]

Just what this comic needed

EVEN MORE OF SOME MORE INSCRUTABLE BULLSHIT


TROLLS HAVE NOSES!!

du it erl

kill yousel

[Loyal]

TROLLS HAVE NOSES!!

What are

Are you fucking k

Go away.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I hate how 0kay Dave is being about this.

Like, he may be the cool guy, but it was shown that he was really unnerved about the last time clone death. Why isn't he showing more emotion at Terezi for intentionally killing him?

[Locke cole]

He's jaded to dead Daves at this point.
Alternatively, all this assertion that he's okay with killing himself is similar to Tavros's assertion of self-esteem.

I.E. a big fat load.

[Wigmund]

Huh...looking back at [s]John: Enter Village, Vriska doesn't actually say she entered the God Tier. She just says that if John does stuff right, he'll end up in a higher tier than she did.

[Aldurin]

Huh...looking back at [s]John: Enter Village, Vriska doesn't actually say she entered the God Tier. She just says that if John does stuff right, he'll end up in a higher tier than she did.

But it's implied she did, and she said God Tiers in plural which indicates that she must be partway up through those yet not at the maximum which would probably what she wants John to achieve.

[Wigmund]

Would the power-gaming bitch actually admit in any way that she didn't gain all the possible levels?

[Krylo]

Would the power-gaming bitch actually admit in any way that she didn't gain all the possible levels?

She already did when she said John could get more than her.

[Wigmund]

It's just the way she wished John luck left it way too open for a definite "Vriska=God Tiers".

[Loyal]

Assuming what you're saying is true, Wig, exactly who is Terezi speaking of?

[Wigmund]

I have no fucking idea.

It could be Vriska, it could be someone else.

[Locke cole]

I have no fucking idea.

It could be Vriska, it could be someone else.

Yeah, because Terezi and Dave would totally get into big arguments about Nepeta or Feferi or Kanaya ("her").

[Wigmund]

Not the first time I've been wrong.

EDIT: Huh, It's Dave that says 'her' after Terezi asks him to "T4K3 4 WILD GU3SS!", but she doesn't correct him afterwards, so her >:P could be mocking him for automatically assuming it's Vriska.
Dammit, I need to stop looking too far into Terezi's dialogue.

[Loyal]

Not the first time I've been wrong.

EDIT: Huh, It's Dave that says 'her' after Terezi asks him to "T4K3 4 WILD GU3SS!", but she doesn't correct him afterwards, so her >:P could be mocking him for automatically assuming it's Vriska.Terezi wouldn't have told Dave to "take a wild guess" unless it were painfully obvious. She's not the type to say "take a wild guess" and have it mean "no, really, take a guess, you have about even odds no matter who you pick".

[edit] Also, this is hardly inconclusive:

GC: W3LL Y3S, TH4T M4Y B3 TRU3, BUT 3V3N SO 1 DO KNOW TH4T LUCK 1S 4 V3RY R34L TH1NG!
GC: FORTUN3 1S TH3 3SS3NC3 OF L1GHT, 4ND 1T SH1N3S ON THOS3 WHOV3 M4ST3R3D 1T
GC: BUT 1 KNOW SOM3TH1NG MOR3 1MPORT4NT TH4N TH1S
GC: 1T 1S 4 B1G S3CR3T
GC: M4YB3 TH3 B1GG3ST 4ND MOST 1MPORT4NT S3CR3T OF 4LL
TG: what
GC: LUCK DO3SNT 4CTU4LLY M4TT3R >8]

[Wigmund]

True, I guess I'm also hoping for once it's not Vriska getting all the prizes.

[Art of Hilt]

oh hell yes vriska flashback

[Krylo]

True, I guess I'm also hoping for once it's not Vriska getting all the prizes.

Sounds like she's not getting a prize.

[Art of Hilt]

everyone cross your fingers for seeing the Thief of Light costume
believe in the costume like you'd believe in hopes and miracles

[POS Industries]

inb4 Nepeta leveled to god tier.

[Wigmund]

I'm betting a booncent that Kanaya is the one who leveled.
And we got to see her costume in "Make Her Pay" when she whipped out the Horned Chainsaw.

[Aldurin]

Aradia's gotten sloppy, probably killed Vriska and dropped her on the Quest Bed.

[Loyal]

Or, since it's Aradia, she might have put Vriska there deliberately.

[POS Industries]

Or, since it's Aradia, she might have put Vriska there deliberately.
Just as painfully as possible due to, you know, all that hatred.

[Loyal]

I thought that went without saying. Vriska may have all her fingers in all the pies, but Vriska herself is Aradia's personal plotbitch.

[Flarecobra]

I'm betting a booncent that Kanaya is the one who leveled.
And we got to see her costume in "Make Her Pay" when she whipped out the Horned Chainsaw.

*Points out that Kanaya has several sets of clothes*

Here, she's in the medium, and one can see her wardrobifer. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004288)

[Bard The 5th LW]

When I first saw the page, I was thinking it was a flash forward to the future. Now I realize its a flashback.

Dammit all.

edit: Hussie's formspring seemingly confirms its was Vriska, if the current page didn't make it clear.

edit2: Seeing the lack of a robo arm gives me vibes that it isn't strictly in the past. The background looks like a questbed though.

[Art of Hilt]

It's the robo arm, it's a shade grey darker than Vriska's skin (face/hand).

also still betting that Vriska is going to get someone (Tavros) to drag her all the way up to her Quest Bed and try to get him to mercy kill her.
And he won't.
He'll just sit there waiting for her to die, and being useless as always.

[Wigmund]

That could explain this from when she tore into Tavros:
AG: You couldn't even do the one little thing I asked you to! The one thing that would have made you man up once and for all.
AG: So instead you flew away and cried, and decided to sleep away your sorrow for the rest of the adventure.

[Marc v4.0]

Sometimes you just gotta choke a bitch

[BitVyper]

Wow, she even got all those Ys. That's an impressive amount of bleeding.

[Geminex]

Wow, she even got all those Ys. That's an impressive amount of bleeding.

TH4TS WH4T W3 C4LL
COMM1TM3NT

[BitVyper]

You reprint that in teal right this minute, young man.

[Loyal]

Hey, HB, it wasn't Tav's fault this time!

[Dracorion]

Maybe he's blaming Tavros for taking so long.

Also, for not doing it the first time.

[Aldurin]

It appears Aradia isn't the only one who likes finger-painting with Vriska's blood.

[Art of Hilt]

Hearts Boxcars is such a charming old-school romantic.
I mean if we ignore the corpse-kissing for a second.

[Aldurin]

Hearts Boxcars is such a charming old-school romantic.
I mean if we ignore the corpse-kissing for a second.

It's not corpse-kissing if it isn't a corpse, Vriska still has the willpower to make Tavros choke himself and write words (granted that much isn't required to do that). Either way it's still kinda creepy and gives a huge wtf towards Tavros.

[Loyal]

I believe she's mind-controlling him as her dreamself on Prospit. How she knows about her dream-bed, and how she was able to act so quickly, I'm not sure. Perhaps Terezi had something to do with it, since being the Seer, she seems to have most of the answers when it comes to stuff like this.

Either way it's still kinda creepy and gives a huge wtf towards Tavros. Perhaps Tavros heard about what Fef did for Sollux (because it's not like there's a communication blackout or anything of the sort) and decided to see what would happen.

[Art of Hilt]

It's not corpse-kissing if it isn't a corpse, Vriska still has the willpower to make Tavros choke himself and write words (granted that much isn't required to do that). Either way it's still kinda creepy and gives a huge wtf towards Tavros.

I was under the impression that Vriska was doing that from Prospit.
Either way it's an unconscious body.
And even then it doesn't matter; Boxcars makes me swoon with his passion. I admit this.

[Dracorion]

I'm still wondering what the hell kinda Breath thing Tavros was trying to do.

Also, I'm not sure they're heading for her Quest Bed. They seem to be heading towards the gate to me.

I suppose it's also possible that Vriska found out about the Quest Bed before getting the shit beaten out of her.

[Art of Hilt]

I suppose it's also possible that Vriska found out about the Quest Bed before getting the shit beaten out of her.

she read the consorts' minds so that's probably it (since the salamanders in Egbertbound knew about it too)

I'm still wondering what the hell kinda Breath thing Tavros was trying to do.


Breath of Life.
You all now realize that John is going to have to smooch someone to life now that it has been foreshadowed
I wonder who he's going to smooch
I bet it's going to be Dave after they have their fight



oh and i just realized that Tavros suddenly using his powers on Boxcars' demand is like when John did it on WV's

[Flarecobra]

But John's the Heir of Breath... And the only XXXXX of Life we've seen is Feferi...

Safe to say I'm not sure I see where you're coming from.

[Art of Hilt]

I don't know, it just looks like Tavros is seeing a half-dead body, and he leans in to kiss the half-dead body, and all of a sudden Breath symbols come out of his mouth.
It seems to me that it's implied that kissing a half-dead body with Breath powers will make them not half-dead somehow.
Like superpowered CPR? *Shrug*

[Loyal]

"BREATH of Life."

[Dracorion]

Either Vriska had an assload of gates or her map-like sky had a bunch of cartographical compass thingies floating around.

Anyway, Vriska's symbol looks like the sun from the Kids' Earth.

I just realized: Tavros is about to beat Vriska's mind control for the first time ever.

[Locke cole]

Well, that settles that.

The sun symbol is Light. That whorl is Space. Therefore, Fantasia's Inhale is the combination with Jade, which makes sense because Fantasia = another universe.

[Aldurin]

I just realized: Tavros is about to beat Vriska's mind control for the first time ever.

Or Vriska wanted to give Tavros a choice to see if he would finally grow up and he failed miserably and Vriska bled to death inside the bizarre dream beehive.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Vriska's too selfish to give Tav a choice.

[Loyal]

Especially if it concerns her powergaming self ascending to god tier levels.

[Art of Hilt]

oh hey Vriska is in her Quest Recuperaco-

orange/blue contrast

fuck

[Grimpond]

What's the significance of that?

[Art of Hilt]

oh it's not significant in, like, the comic
just that in stuff like advertising and so on, orange/blue contrast is everywhere
and once this fact sinks in, you start to see it everywhere
like a curse

[Grimpond]

and so we see where tavros fucks vriska over

[BitVyper]

This is not what I would call bleeding to death slowly, Vriska.

[Art of Hilt]

looks like it doesn't matter that she's not awake while she's bleeding to death because the dreamself suffers from the wounds of the real body in real time
so if she's going to bleed to death
she's going to feel it

[Wigmund]

Is she actually bleeding to death or is she trying to guilt Tavros into offing her because she has crippling - but survivable - wounds?

[Loyal]

I'm guessing she is in fact bleeding to death. Simply too much injury not to be, not to mention all the broken bones and such.

Andrew doesn't typically use that much blood for 'survivable' wounds.

[BitVyper]

You cannot do it. You cannot kill the girl.

[Locke cole]

Good lord this is a gruesome scene. I mean, just look at Tavros. Just about the only thing on him that's not blue are fudgey brown tears.

[Dracorion]

How the hell does Vriska have that much blood?

Also, does her mind-control thing look different this time?

[BitVyper]

I'm impressed with Vriska's conviction here, to be honest.

[Aldurin]

I'd be scared shitless too if I was covered in someone else's blood while their almost-corpse tried to control me into stabbing them while writing with their blood. But I would have stabbed as a reflex then absconded.

Tavros is a wimp.

[Art of Hilt]

this is so dramatically compelling
i love it

[Premmy]

oh it's not significant in, like, the comic
just that in stuff like advertising and so on, orange/blue contrast is everywhere
and once this fact sinks in, you start to see it everywhere
like a curse

I think I have the same curse....
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2500/3806824711_b84e6fa124.jpg

[Aldurin]

Tavros, you wimp. Even the awesome exile is supporting this course of action. Stab her already before you drown in your own tears.

[PCD]

Hope y'all are enjoying this orange-blue contrast because geeze there is a fuckton of it

Oh god Tavros no wonder he went and slept for the rest of the freaking session
Droog I'm pretty sure if calling him a wimp worked, this wouldn't be a problem anymore, people are calling him a wimp nonstop.

[Fifthfiend]

I'd be scared shitless too if I was covered in someone else's blood while their almost-corpse tried to control me into stabbing them while writing with their blood. But I would have stabbed as a reflex then absconded.

Tavros is a wimp.

Tavros, you wimp. Even the awesome exile is supporting this course of action. Stab her already before you drown in your own tears.

In any case, this is starting to look like some radical pockets in the civil rights movement. There are a crazy few who seem to believe in reverse racism or turning a blind eye when a white person is a victim in a crime.

Just take your gay rights and get the fuck off my doorstep, and don't do any of that shit in front of my future kids.

[Loyal]

Augh. Oh god that's horrible. Making him fingerpaint so much he ends up writing with his own goddamn blood.

[Premmy]

Could be sweat or tears, probably isn't but could be.

[Loyal]

We've seen tears enough times (including right now, right next to his bloodied hands) to know that they aren't that opaque.

[Fifthfiend]

I mean I know we're supposed to pretend Vriska's horrifying acts are in any way cute or justifiable or redeemable because herp derp fate herp derp culture herp derp trophy but seriously fuck vriska forever

[Aldurin]

Suck it up Tav and stab her already.

[Wigmund]

Oh look, now Diamonds Droog is joining on the "let's fuck with Tavros" parade.
Wait, does this mean the exiles can talk to any player in the session they are linked to?

Also, same here Fifth, same here. I'm personally hoping that Tavros leaves her there on the quest bed and that her real body - stuck in a permanent coma - is still there while the trolls sit on the asteroid.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I'd imagine this would be rather scarring. Especially since Tav seems most like a human out of the trolls.

[POS Industries]

I'd be scared shitless too if I was covered in someone else's blood while their almost-corpse tried to control me into stabbing them while writing with their blood. But I would have stabbed as a reflex then absconded.

Tavros is a wimp.
Tavros, you wimp. Even the awesome exile is supporting this course of action. Stab her already before you drown in your own tears.
Suck it up Tav and stab her already.
This stopped being funny at least ten posts before you even started doing it. Enough already.

[Krylo]

I mean I know we're supposed to pretend Vriska's horrifying acts are in any way cute or justifiable or redeemable because herp derp fate herp derp culture herp derp trophy but seriously fuck vriska forever

How is "Aradia left me bleeding to death, please kill me" horrifying? Even when you calculate in her constant begging when he doesn't do it? Her dream self is bleeding too, and from her expression it's pretty obvious that she's not enjoying what is happening to it.

It's kind of ridiculous to call asking for a mercy kill horrifying. I guess she could mind control him into it instead of asking but then you'd just be here calling it horrifying that she made him kill her.

So her options are... what? Die painfully while the closest thing she had to a friend at that point watches? Because asking him to finish her off is horrifying?

I'm not following the logic here.

[Fifthfiend]

Mind controlling someone into writing KILL ME KILL ME KILL ME YOU WEAKLING COWARD, in your own blood, said person 1. having a powerful aversion to violence, 2. having already repeatedly been the target of your various degrees of psychological and physical abuse,

is

uh

EDIT: Earl's posts.

Earl's posts are why it is terrible.

[Aldurin]

Where did that explosion come from.

Also that would be a weird medical emergency from Terezi's view with Vriska suddenly bleeding profusely while she tries to mind-control somebody.

[Bard The 5th LW]

The da,m thing just exploded. Probably best that Tav left.

[Loyal]

I guess she could mind control him into it instead of asking but then you'd just be here calling it horrifying that she made him kill her.Not really, no.

It's not so much the asking to be killed part that's terrible.

It's entirely possible that Tavros never killed a single thing during SGrub (Tinkerbull notwithstanding), merely continuing to use his powers of Communion to have the underlings work for him. He's certainly never killed another troll before, obviously he'd have difficulty starting now. Given Troll society, I rather doubt Trolls have a concept of a "mercy kill" (or "mercy" itself), so there's also that.

I believe the worst part of it is, however, that she was continuing to mind control him so she can scream at him for not doing it, to the extent that he's bleeding from his own goddamn fingers and writing with his own blood, but wouldn't mind control him to the extent required to actually perform the deed. Regardless of her request, she was still trying to force him to do it. She never had any intention of giving him a choice in the matter, only in maintaining enough of an illusion of free will for ... whatever purpose. Perhaps she was trying to turn him into a more remorseless killer, to change him to better reflect her ideal.

And then she has the gall to give him shit about it later.

[Archbio]

Her dream self is bleeding too, and from her expression it's pretty obvious that she's not enjoying what is happening to it.

How can you tell? (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005016)

[Premmy]

How can you tell? (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005016)
This is how (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005021)


And then she has the gall to give him shit about it later.
I knowwww, right? (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004251)

[Archbio]

This is how

I really mostly read that as active mental strain on her part.

She's shutting the exile out of her mind while at the same time making Tavros write more and more stuff. I'm not saying she's not stressed, but it seems wrong somehow that she'd go from the wounds of her real body being painless to her dream body (first expression) to having a seizure from them, while the only change she seems to have gone through is more blood loss. And even then the mechanics of the whole thing are vague.

[Loyal]

This is how (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005021)That looked more like anger (at Snowman, Tavros, whatever) than distress to me.

[Krylo]

I rather doubt Trolls have a concept of a "mercy kill" (or "mercy" itself), so there's also that."8ut do it fast, ok? (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005015)

Please don't make me 8leed to death slowly."

Nope. Not asking for a mercy kill at all.

I believe the worst part of it is, however, that she was continuing to mind control him so she can scream at him for not doing it, to the extent that he's bleeding from his own goddamn fingers and writing with his own bloodBecause it's the only way she can communicate with him and she's freaking out because she can feel herself dying, and I can't imagine it's a pleasant experience given the way she looks past the first time she tells him to do it.


but wouldn't mind control him to the extent required to actually perform the deed. And if she had you'd/Wigmund/Fifth would be calling her a horrible monster for forcing Tavros to kill her. It's a no win situation for her. The only way you lot wouldn't leap on her in this situation is if she just died in pain quietly. Which, considering she's like 12 or 13 is a little much to expect even if this was one of the trolls who hasn't been completely selfish the entire game. It's certainly something that can not be expected from Vriska.

The only difference would be I wouldn't have disagreed that it was particularly bitchy, someone would have pointed out that having the guy who is completely against violence off his 'friend' was a horrible psychologically traumatizing thing to do, instead of Fifth pointing out that it's psychologically traumatizing to ask him to do it repeatedly.

Which it would be, even though he's the only one there to do it.

And which this is, even though he's the only one there to do it.

But, again, this is a situation where no one is exactly coming out without some kind of trauma. If she had forced him to do it, would it have left him feeling better? Would it have left him feeling worse? Is having her dream self rupture and bleed slowly while someone screams at her from beyond the pall that she should take his will any less psychologically traumatizing?

What could she have done, realistically, that would have satiated you in this situation?

I'm not disagreeing that it was harmful to Tavros. What I am disagreeing with is that freaking out when you're dying painfully because the only one who could possibly make it less painful refuses to do anything is somehow a horrible evil act.

Especially one that even BEGINS to compare with every other thing that Vriska has done.

"A Vriska did it" may be annoying, but it's not half as annoying as everyone throwing a bitch fit whenever she does anything at all ever.

She could pet a puppy and I swear someone would find a way to paint her as the worst person in the world because she petted a puppy.

She may be the worst person in the world, but this is not the reason. This doesn't even contribute to it.

Regardless of her request, she was still trying to force him to do it. She never had any intention of giving him a choice in the matter, only in maintaining enough of an illusion of free will for ... whatever purpose. Perhaps she was trying to turn him into a more remorseless killer, to change him to better reflect her ideal.If she were really trying to make him do it, he wouldn't have flown away without doing it.

She wanted him to make a choice. It's been shown throughout the series that, as selfish as Vriska is, she has some level of something resembling remorse. She wanted Tavros and Terezi to be stronger for what she did to them. To overcome it and be better in the end. It's Terezi who said this earlier on, the sage of mind and all.

She was hoping that he was strong enough to do what needed to be done without her forcing him to do it, now. She was wrong and she is disappointed in him.
And then she has the gall to give him shit about it later.It is so terrible to give someone shit about leaving you to die slowly and in pain. That hasn't been dealt with in OTHER works of contemporary fiction or anything. It's never been shown to be morally reprehensible to do that, or anything.

I get that it isn't easy for Tavros, however this isn't exactly Vriska being a huge bitch here. This is Vriska dying slowly, and you can see by the way her expression changes between the smile that Archbio linked to the look of frantic panic that she has later as he refuses to kill her, that she's, you know, in pain.

Not to mention her dream self also being covered by her own blood.

Edit: I really mostly read that as active mental strain on her part.

She's shutting the exile out of her mind while at the same time making Tavros write more and more stuff. I'm not saying she's not stressed, but it seems wrong somehow that she'd go from the wounds of her real body being painless to her dream body (first expression) to having a seizure from them, while the only change she seems to have gone through is more blood loss. And even then the mechanics of the whole thing are vague.

Bleeding to death is painless.

Edit 2:
The mechanics: There are only two ways we know of that the dream self can serve as an extra life.

1) The corpse must be kissed by a prince or princess. (Please note, they are technically all princes/princesses of their respective moons.)

2) The player must die on their quest bed/cocoon, in which case their dream self takes over while upgrading to god tier on the battlefield.

The dream self also takes on the critical wounds sustained by the real self, but in a delayed fashion. Note how dream John began bleeding a little while after he was stabbed. These wounds are healed upon resurrection.

Presumably the dream self will eventually die from the same wounds inflicted on the real self, but after a time delay. This would suggest the player has a pretty brief time limit to complete their resurrection.

We've only seen three examples of this. John and Vriska, who both died on the quest bed/cocoon, so the time limit didn't matter.

Sollux was also resurrected after being kissed by Feferi. This means after he died, she made the trip between her world and his in QUITE A HURRY.

[Loyal]

Nope. Not asking for a mercy kill at all. Yeah, okay.And if she had you'd/Wigmund/Fifth would be calling her a horrible monster for forcing Tavros to kill her. It's a no win situation for her. The only way you lot wouldn't leap on her in this situation is if she just died in pain quietly. Not really, no.Please don't put words in my mouth, kaythanx.

given the way she looks past the first time she tells him to do it.Again, that looks more like anger to me. Yes, she's in pain and her life is in danger, but as I recall stuff like that never stopped her from getting her bad self on. (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004478)

instead of Fifth pointing out that it's psychologically traumatizing to ask him to do it repeatedly.She wasn't asking. I reiterate that she was never giving him a choice in the matter, and pretending like he had one was just cruel.

What could she have done, realistically, that would have satiated you in this situation? It's kind of a "point of no return" deal for her, here.

(Stuff leading up to...)

She may be the worst person in the world, but this is not the reason. This doesn't even contribute to it.It's a continuation of a prior contribution to her worst-person-in-the-world status, namely the shit she's been putting Tavros through since day one. Vriska jumped him off a cliff, Vriska tormented him during the housebuilding shenanigans, Vriska tried to get him to love her during a period where he believed (and probably still does) that she was the single most terrifying being ever to cast a shadow over the universe, and now this. It's like, give the boy a fuckin' br8k, hey Vriska?

On its own, yeah, this isn't a particularly helpful contribution to her trophy collection. But her continued abuse of Tavros and the fact that she never changed once during the entirety of the comic is worth something. Stuff like this does a fantastic job reminding the audience of it.

It is so terrible to give someone shit about leaving you to die slowly and in pain.We all know Vriska well enough to know that she's not giving him shit for leaving her for dead, so much as giving him shit for failing to act how she wanted/expected him to. At best, if she's giving him shit about the left-for-dead bit it's because his inaction could conceivably have endangered her god-tier ascension before they knew enough about the ascension to know that wouldn't be an issue.

I get that it isn't easy for Tavros, however this isn't exactly Vriska being a huge bitch here. This is Vriska dying slowly,Vriska's doing a damn good job being the former while doing the latter.

[Locke cole]

As Hussie said in the formspring, the dreamself wounds are delayed. She probably went from not quite noticing them to being overwhelmed by the steadily growing pain.

You know, it's interesting. In both trying to kiss, and trying to kill Vriska, Tavros always seems to be a bit late in being ready to do what she once wanted him to do.

I can't compete with the rant directly above me (edit: I mean two posts above me), but I do want to say something. The whole situation was basically a no-win situation for Tavros as well. Whatever he did and whatever Vriska did, there was no way he was getting out of that situation unscarred. If he'd killed her, then our resident pacifist would have to deal with that, probably without too much moral support from Vriska (or maybe she would've supported him: I can't quite get into Vriska's head enough to figure out how her attitude towards Tavros would've changed). If she'd manipul8ed him into killing her directly, then he still would've been traumatized. It's not like he can't see what he's doing when that happens. And the scenario that happened, him being made to write until he was writing with his own blood, clearly did a number on him, to the point where he chose to escape from reality by sleeping the rest of the session away.

If it is true that there was no way for certain fans to not see Vriska's actions here as reprehensible, a lot of it has to do with the fact that any outcome would've been bad for Tavros.

As for me, I'm no longer sure what I think of Vriska's actions, though I am leaning towards not approving, probably since this scenario seems premeditated on Vriska's part. I mean, obviously, she wasn't quite expecting a murderous Aradia, but it looks like she had a scenario like this planned, with Tavros as the one to kill her, because she had planned to reach the god tiers, powergamer that she is. It looks like she was trying to groom Tavros into something he's really not, and both of them suffered for it.

[Kim]

She wasn't asking. I reiterate that she was never giving him a choice in the matter, and pretending like he had one was just cruel.

That he was able to run away from a girl capable of controlling his mind says pretty much outright that yes he did indeed have a choice. If he didn't she could have stopped him.

[Krylo]

Again, that looks more like anger to me. Yes, she's in pain and her life is in danger, but as I recall stuff like that never stopped her from getting her bad self on. (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004478)Angry Vriska has never been frantic or panicked. She has simply been heartless and vicious.

This was not angry Vriska because angry Vriska doesn't act anything like what she just acted like. Angry Vriska wouldn't have repeated herself. Angry Vriska wouldn't have made the words progressively larger, progressively more pleading.

Angry Vriska doesn't plead at all. Angry Vriska doesn't freak out. Angry Vriska doesn't mentally scream in pain at someone she's controlling (see: Tavros writing out a 'aaaa' scream).

This was in pain and freaking out Vriska.

She wasn't asking. I reiterate that she was never giving him a choice in the matter, and pretending like he had one was just cruel.She did, though. Again, if she hadn't intended to give him a choice, she wouldn't have been in that much pain, that much distress. She would have just had him stab her.

There's no reason, beyond giving him a choice, beyond giving him the chance to be strong like she wanted him to be, to not just make him stab her.

We all know Vriska well enough to know that she's not giving him shit for leaving her for dead, so much as giving him shit for failing to act how she wanted/expected him to. If by 'fail to act how she wanted/expected him to' you mean 'leaving her to die slowly instead of ending it quick and painlessly' then I suppose we are in agreement?

Also: Look up. She was in immense pain. She was smiling at first and then looking horrible because Dream Self injuries are delayed. As he failed to kill her, she suffered every injury Aradia just dealt to her all over again. Only slower.

At best, if she's giving him shit about the left-for-dead bit it's because his inaction could conceivably have endangered her god-tier ascension before they knew enough about the ascension to know that wouldn't be an issue.I don't believe this is the case for a second, but I feel I should point out that if it WERE it would leave your case even weaker.

Her options were two-fold (after stopping Tavros from kissing her): Be resurrected as god tier, or be dead.

If she didn't know him not killing her on the bed might lead to her not being resurrected it only makes her freak out even more justified as she's also coping with the possibility of ACTUALLY dying in that case.

[Locke cole]

Yeah. Snowman wanted her to "Steal his will", but Vriska really wanted Tavros to be the person who could kill her, so she refused to do that.

He did have a choice. She just really wanted him to choose something other than what he did, and made that desire known.

[Loyal]

That he was able to run away from a girl capable of controlling his mind says pretty much outright that yes he did indeed have a choice. If he didn't she could have stopped him.There's a certain unknown involved here. Given that her ascension and his fleeing happened very close to each other, it's entirely possible she had finally bled out, followed by his fleeing, followed by or concurrent to her ascension.

We don't know what timeframe the real-to-dreamself wound-delay or the death-to-ascension operates on, so there's wiggle room during which she simply could not have controlled him.

[Krylo]

We don't know what timeframe the real-to-dreamself wound-delay or the death-to-ascension operates on, so there's wiggle room during which she simply could not have controlled him.

Yes we do.

Their physical body dies, ascension starts nearly immediately.

See: John.

The only time she wouldn't have had to mind control him would have been in the couple of seconds between actual death and actual resurrection, but if she hadn't done it by that point it's pretty obvious she wasn't going to.

Edit: There's no point having Tavros kill her if she's already dead.

FURTHER: If she's making him WRITE she obviously still has control.

[Locke cole]

There's a certain unknown involved here. Given that her ascension and his fleeing happened very close to each other, it's entirely possible she had finally bled out, followed by his fleeing, followed by or concurrent to her ascension.

We don't know what timeframe the real-to-dreamself wound-delay or the death-to-ascension operates on, so there's wiggle room during which she simply could not have controlled him.
It seems a bit more likely that she simply didn't keep him from running. She made that pretty clear to Snowman.

[Premmy]

I imagine she only takes control long enough to make him write, then relinquishes control to let him kill/not kill her. As she dies this becomes less something she's intentionally doing and more just her fading in and out of consciousness.
edit:
As opposed to the idea that she's only exerting a minimal amount of control over him,

[Archbio]

As Hussie said in the formspring As Hussie said in the formspring, the dreamself wounds are delayed.

Then that sure is seamless exposition, as always.

Bleeding to death is painless.

Yes?

I mean, if you're bleeding to death, I'd expect the wounds to provide the actual pain... with the bloodloss resulting in a rather numb or another otherwise unpleasant sensation.

[Krylo]

Yes?

I mean, if you're bleeding to death, I'd expect the wounds to provide the actual pain... with the bloodloss resulting in a rather numb or another otherwise unpleasant sensation.

At first. However, the lack of blood pressure can really fuck you up, as would the brain slowly shutting down from oxygen (or the troll equivalent) starvation, causing wooziness, light headedness, and a difficulty maintaining rational thought combined with heart palpitations and panic responses going off in what is left of your mind.

It might not exactly be 'painful' but it wouldn't be anything conducive to handling manners in a calm and thought out fashion.

Though it doesn't really matter, as the reason she seemed to get worse as time went on was already explained.

[Archbio]

Though it doesn't really matter, as the reason she seemed to get worse as time went on was already explained.

Hey, it matters. I want to know if I should take painkillers or not if I ever start bleeding massively out of my pores.

[Krylo]

Hey, it matters. I want to know if I should take painkillers or not if I ever start bleeding massively out of my pores.

Probably not.

[Wigmund]

Oh look, more Vriska-Aizen parallels.

[POS Industries]

Oh look, more Vriska-Aizen parallels.
Aizen is a giant fairy?

OH WAIT HE'S A BLEACH CHARACTER SO YEAH

[Locke cole]

Aizen is a giant fairy?

OH WAIT HE'S A BLEACH CHARACTER SO YEAH
Badum-tish (http://www.instantrimshot.com/).

[Kim]

Aizen is a giant fairy?

http://i56.tinypic.com/xyesx.jpg

[POS Industries]

..........................Okay then.

[Kim]

Exactly.

[Fifthfiend]

trap sprung

[Locke cole]

..........................Okay then.

That's about the average response.

Hey, anyone notice that Vriska's wings have eyespots that mirror her two (eight) eyes?

And I'm assuming the wings are just part of the costume, and not actually attached to her? Because she sure doesn't look like she has wings in Alterniabound.

[Fifthfiend]

She can probably just switch them on and off or some shit.

[Aldurin]

wrong thread flare.

Also this is why you eat a lump of uranium before going outside, just in case you're stuck in a capsule that's out of power.

[Dracorion]

I notice that the bitchass hoodie seems to be standard issue for quest bed resurrected selves.

I kinda liked it better when it was exclusive to John.

[Premmy]

I notice that the bitchass hoodie seems to be standard issue for quest bed resurrected selves.

I kinda liked it better when it was exclusive to John.

Me too, I kinda hoped everyone would get unique outfits instead of a standard uniform.

[Kim]

http://i54.tinypic.com/2iuxdeg.jpg

H3Y D4V3 1S TH1S YOU

[Loyal]

Wait. Where did all of Vriska's hair go? That puny not-Heir-of-Breath hoodie could not hope to contain it.

[Archbio]

Someone needs to do something about this hoodie infestation.

[Premmy]

'Specially since those aren't hoodies, but scarfs..

[McTahr]

image

Terezi wouldn't have gotten the glasses dead on, silly!

[Kim]

oh shiiiiiiit

[Fifthfiend]

Wait. Where did all of Vriska's hair go? That puny not-Heir-of-Breath hoodie could not hope to contain it.

It disappeared to the same place her wings come from / go to.

EDIT: it's what her wings are made of

[Art of Hilt]

The good thing about 22 hour air travel and the subsequent 10 hour sleep that follows is all the sweet new pages.
So sweet.
As is Vriska's new outfit, I'm sorry but that shit is sweet. I don't mind that she got a hood. I was actually worried that she wouldn't get a hood because John already had one. It has always been my belief that Thieves should have hoods. Some people may not believe in the same things I do vis a vis Thief headwear. I forgive them for that.

Look at that. She just looks so happy to be in her sweet new threads, and not be bleeding to death painfully.


Also it took me a while to notice Quest Recuperacoon = recuperacoon = cocoon = cocoon exploding as it hatches = Vriska dressed up like a butterfly. I liked that. It was like a sort of fairy tale imagery that was sort of there and made sense considering everything we knew about trolls, you know?



Also in non-Vriska related news, WV shenanigans are gold despite it relying on him on eventually taking a shit, and Jade/Karkat is something I'm looking forward to because they give each other shit. "Oh shut up Karkat". Ha ha ha.

[Aldurin]

I'm just thrilled that christmas time is almost here. And I have a proper homestuck avatar now.

EDIT: Jade: Borrow everyone's grist and alchemize everything at once. And then alchemize it some more.

[Dracorion]

I don't know that Vriska's quest bed was a recuperacoon. It looked like just a stone slab to me. That it was oval-shaped kinda like a recuperacoon, yeah.

[Loyal]

It's more a matter of the entire structure the quest-bed-slab was housed inside of. That was the recuperacoon.

One thing I'm wondering about... given that your realself needs to die for the dreamself to ascend, does that mean that ascending necessarily involves subjecting yourself to the Horrorterrors like with Jade? Or does Ascending perhaps grant you a reprieve from it somehow?

[Art of Hilt]

There are only two ways we know of that the dream self can serve as an extra life.

1) The corpse must be kissed by a prince or princess. (Please note, they are technically all princes/princesses of their respective moons.)

2) The player must die on their quest bed/cocoon, in which case their dream self takes over while upgrading to god tier on the battlefield.


okay so i guess everyone who at any point had a dreamself on prospit or derse has magic life smooches
who knew

also i just realized that the only ones with dreamselves which can serve as extra lives are dave or rose

and if rose really does send hers on a suicide mission, then...

dave your corpse is going to have to PUCKER UP

[Bard The 5th LW]

1) The corpse must be kissed by a prince or princess. (Please note, they are technically all princes/princesses of their respective moons.)

I think its really just Feferi who can do it, otherwise the 'of life' title becomes very pointless.

He was mostly just pointing out the technicality in his wording, not really talking about a mechanic in the game.

[Art of Hilt]

otherwise the 'of life' title becomes very pointless.

Unless that does something else that can't only be done on a person once and only if they have a spare dreamself. I mean, if "Light" means "fortune", then "Life" could be anything really. Her fraymotifs can't all be "Necrolingus Serenade" after all.

Besides I think that Tavros tried to do something similar in-comic more or less puts a flashing banner over it labeled "foreshadowing!!!", with specifically three exclamation marks on it.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Notice how when he reached in for the kiss, blue wind appeared like John's 'windy thing.' Tavros is the Page of Breath, and Vriska wasn't quite dead, so he may have been attempting some kind of magical CPR type thing.

[Art of Hilt]

Yeah that's what I thought, but then Andrew decided to specify that prince/princessdom applied to Prospit and Derse.
He didn't need to do that. Feferi was already a princess of an empire.
That this explanation comes right after kissing attempts in-comic just strikes me as something that'll prove to be relevant later.

And by relevant I mean Dave is going to be kissed by John while Karkat watches, in that order.

[Krylo]

With tongue.

[Aldurin]

With tongue.

Only if it gets free echeladder rungs.

[Flarecobra]

While Jack watches too. Distract him with Yaoi.

[Art of Hilt]

oh shit alchemy update
oh god
oh sweet jesus
a tear in my eye; a joy in my heart

also; red text + green text = christmas

[Aldurin]

Artifact grist is gonna be going down the pipe faster than x-lax man

[POS Industries]

Fluffy Ball Plus Headband is Lord English.

[Geminex]

Hahaha, nice.
Also, would the CUE BALL and Rose's magic ball have made what I think it would've made?
Damn.

[Specterbane]

Clearly they would've made First Guardian Vriska. Clearly.

[Flarecobra]

And it proves guns CLEARLY are a girl's best friend. :)

[Aldurin]

Oh what the hell MAKE THAT PROTON CANNON JADE!!

I mean she comes up with the only practical weapon that follows the laws of physics, it has to be made.

[Art of Hilt]

Girl's Best Friend costs 500,500
[Roman numeral for 500]"]DD

[Flarecobra]

Oh what the hell MAKE THAT PROTON CANNON JADE!!

I mean she comes up with the only practical weapon that follows the laws of physics, it has to be made.


Not enough grist. Unless you got 10 billion grist laying around. Or 5 hundred million uranium.

[Loyal]

Pretty sure the uranium is the problem. Those little bastards can't be easy to kill en-masse.

[Fifthfiend]

They would be... if she had a proton cannon.

[Dracorion]

With the transparent Cue Ball Jade would've seen the answer to anything.

Or it would have been the Green Sun inside.

[Locke cole]

Dangit. Now I'll never see her combine 8 and Cue.

[POS Industries]

HAPPY APRIL 13TH, 2009 EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://homestuckgaiden.bandcamp.com/)

[Geminex]

Yeah, just saw that. Skaian christmas is excellent. And squiddly night. And let it snow, as played by the midnight crew, I assume.

Edit:
Oh gog, SBAHJ cameo! Fuck yes.

[Token]

fuck you billy the bellsuit diver. fuck you foralways.

[Aldurin]

Shit, let's be santa.

That's actually pretty awesome within it's theme.

EIDT: trusn outt SBahHJ atualie updaets; have to chek this shit on a regoolar basis now

[The Argent Lord]

fuck you billy the bellsuit diver. fuck you foralways.

Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas.
Merry
Christmas.

[Token]

Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas.
Merry
Christmas.

There is a special hell for people like you.

[The Argent Lord]

I had to, it happened to be on while I was checking the thread.

In all seriousness, though, Carolmanthetime is seriously incredible.

[Flarecobra]

Why do I see him doing that while melting like a wax candle?

[IHateMakingNames]

I just read through all of this from the beginning, due solely to this thread and that troll surge a bit back.

Totally worth it. Though it involved lots of skimming. And unfortunately by the time I got to the trolls, I had gone through 3000 pages of the humans so I just wanted to know what happened to John and Dave and the skimming increased. Plus I really wanted to get to the end.

I figure anything important will be brought up again later.

[PCD]

My plan for a long while has been to wait until Act 5 ends before rereading the whole damn thing again, and also before seeing what a mess the TV Tropes page has become. But of course this is the longest goddamn Act of all time, so who the hell knows when that'll happen.

[BitVyper]

lol @ Empiricist's wand

[Fifthfiend]

IAnd unfortunately by the time I got to the trolls, I had gone through 3000 pages of the humans so I just wanted to know what happened to John and Dave and the skimming increased.

A not-uncommon sentiment. You can always go back and reread whenever you decide you give a shit about 'em.

[Art of Hilt]

At first I was like "Oh man finally Jade will talk to Karkat!"
Then I saw the Aquarius symbol and I was like " :I "
But then I read the conversation and I was keeling over with laughter.

FFFFFWW = all F's is the hexadecimal code for "white". "WW" is the first two letters in how Eridan says "whale".

[BitVyper]

No, I don't think she'll talk to Karkat for a bit. Remember, he couldn't get ahold of her in the future (now present), so he had to get in touch with her much further in the future to figure out how, and she told him to tell her to blah blah blah, and they've already had that conversation, which ultimately proved pointless anyway.

[Art of Hilt]

I'm pretty sure the part that he couldn't get ahold of her in was the time period where Jade screws around in the Frog Temple to when Dream Jade died, and Jade is actively ignoring him.
Since he wanted to tell her about contacting him when her dreamself dies and its robot explodes.
Like here. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003273)

And then she contacts him after she wakes up from Rainbow Road. So I'm more or less convinced that the time frame in which she's adamant about non-cooperation is closed by then.

So really, it's more that all that needs to happen now is to have Jade tell Karkat to contact far past her. Karkat was pretty vague about the circumstances of him having to contact past Jade, and from the perspective of the Karkat that Jade is forced to cooperate with, it hasn't happened yet (he didn't know what she was talking about when she said that she's contacting him about the exploded robot), so really all that needs to happen is for Jade to tell him and to have that time loop closed.

[Flarecobra]

Thank you, you just ruined Mario Kart for me. >_<

[Art of Hilt]

But it's Rainbow Road! It's where you go... when you diiieeeee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuX5_OWObA0)