Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[Kerensky287]

Pretty sure this whole thing is going to be hilariously fruitless.

Mostly because what we know is that:
1) Dreamselves have to be alive for that to work. While Dream!kanaya and Dream!tavros aren't explicitly dead, they're implied to be, and Tavs in particular seemed pretty convinced his dreamself was gone.
2) There is a very short timeframe for that sort of revival to work because wounds inflicted on the Awake!self are also inflicted on the Dream!self. Notice how when John got stabbed, blood pooled on his shirt before he hit god tier. Kanaya might have a chance (aside from the next point), but I suspect Dream!Tavros (if he's alive) is now in several more pieces than he used to be.

EDIT: I stand corrected on the prince/princess thing but I maintain my position on its irrelevance.

[Geminex]

Some people are just more comfortable with necrophilia than others.

Just gonna repost this: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa7O8juc44k)

Cause damn, Homestuck just got the set.

[Ryong]

She's also, SEEING his blood, however that works.

Deep down I want people to deep down want to be able to tell off people well and intelligently in circumstances that actually require courage, but deeper down than that I know that you're right that most people are so spineless that even in their deepest hopes they only aspire to the bravery required to bully insecure cripples, because it's utterly beyond them to even conceive of the possibility of ever overcoming their own weakness and fear to confront someone stronger than themselves for the sake of doing what's right, as Tavros courageously did.

I meant to quote this earlier, but holy fuck this thing moves fast.

On Tavros and Vriska:
Vriska, from the looks of it, has been antagonizing Tavros since forever because she can't get over how he acts - unsure, nervous and/or just wimpish in general. That much is clear. The crippling seemed to me like a more symbolic thing, because he himself seems to believe that he's unable to do things on his own as his only source of confidence is imaginary. By the time he tries to fight back, he got the robo-legs, which also strike me as symbolic of him being able to stand on his own feet. He's still a wimp, but he's finally trying to get better...But of course, fighting Vriska wasn't a smart thing to do.

Vriska is a bitch, yes, but amidst all of that bitchyness there are some good intentions SOMETIMES.


3) The "kissing them awake" thing requires a Prince or Princess.

Yup. So unless Karkles and/or Terezi have some sort of royal heritage we don't know about, this whole thing is just going to end in the word "BLUH" and some poor drawings.

They are all princes/princesses of Derse or Prospit, remember?

[Loyal]

3) The "kissing them awake" thing requires a Prince or Princess.

Yup. So unless Karkles and/or Terezi have some sort of royal heritage we don't know about, this whole thing is just going to end in the word "BLUH" and some poor drawings.
Even ignoring what Ryong said (it's on the previous formspring somewhere), this is ridiculous. Why on earth would Karkat and Terezi even attempt this if they weren't absolutely certain they were qualified for the job?

[Marc v4.0]

They are all princes/princesses of Derse or Prospit, remember?

Yeah this is pretty much a thing that everyone in the game knows, why is there still any discussion or doubt?

2) There is a very short timeframe for that sort of revival to work because wounds inflicted on the Awake!self are also inflicted on the Dream!self. Notice how when John got stabbed, blood pooled on his shirt before he hit god tier. Kanaya might have a chance (aside from the next point), but I suspect Dream!Tavros (if he's alive) is now in several more pieces than he used to be.


Fef revived Sollux some time after he got Glub'd

[Ryong]

Yeah this is pretty much a thing that everyone in the game knows, why is there still any discussion or doubt?

TBH, there's a fucking ton of things to keep track of at all times.

[Locke cole]

Fef revived Sollux some time after he got Glub'd

Yeah. The sympathetic wounds are delayed and slowed

If Dream Tavros was still alive when Tavros Prime attacked Vriska, then he's probably still alive, but Terezi sort of was operating on a pretty short timer to get the kiss done.

[Arcanum]

In Alterniabound when you talk to Tavros as Karkat, Karkat says he told Tavros to look at the "Demon" (Bec Noir), but that he was too busy sKY FROLICKING and didn't hear him, so there is a slight chance Dream Tavros was simply blown away by Bec Noir's attack (either out into the empty bits of the Incipisphere or to the Battlefield, doesn't really matter). As for Kanaya I don't think anything has been directly said regarding her dream self, other than the obvious "Prospit blew up, all our dream selves are dead" stuff.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I think Tavros is the only one with even a slight chance.

[Token]

If there is a gog in heaven, Tavros will be brought back to life only to immediately be killed by Gamzee.

EDIT: Yeah, this works, I guess. (Kanaya, noooo)

[Flarecobra]

Nope. Dream Tavros is in two pieces, with his apperentally chocolately filling spilling out.

[Locke cole]

Update.

:(

[Specterbane]

And there goes another chorus of "damn you Hussie!" from the fans. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005285)

[Geminex]

Whelp. Guess Terezi puckered up for nothing.

[Ryong]

You forgot the "Called it." chorus.

[Amake]

I'm glad death didn't turn out to be so cheap. I'm glad, damnit! Those are tears of joy. :crying:

By the way do you pronounce Derse like "terse" or like "desert" without the T and the R swapped to the left? I prefer the latter.

[Locke cole]

The former.

By the way, I found a theory on the official forums that Dream Tavros didn't die to Jack; he died because of the "wound" that Kanaya gave the normal Tavros just before he got his robolegs.

After all, there's no robolegs on the dreamself; nothing to staunch the wound that is bisection.

[Geminex]

Look at the cut, though. That's way above the waist. Tavros got robo-legs, not a robo-digestive-tract.

Still, interesting.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I don't think there have been any defined rules on Pronunciation besides a few obvious ones.

I prefer the latter.

[Marc v4.0]

I prefer like Terse because how the hell do you even pronouce

"desert" without the T and the R swapped to the left?

[stefan]

2X DREAMCORPSE COMBO

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Der-seh
Not Dare-Say, though.
I hate people who pronounce words that and in e with an ay.
They should all die. Like Tavros and Kanaya.

EDIT: The above is my personal preference, not what I assume to be the canon pronunciation.
Even though I do have the authority to decide what's canon and what's not. Totally.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Well fuck.
I was really looking forward to Karkat getting punched for getting all touchy feely on her while she was all being dead.


Der-seh
Not Dare-Say, though.
I hate people who pronounce words that and in e with an ay.
They should all die. Like Tavros and Kanaya.

EDIT: The above is my personal preference, not what I assume to be the canon pronunciation.
Even though I do have the authority to decide what's canon and what's not. Totally.

Your face isn't canon.

[Premmy]

I prefer like Terse because how the hell do you even pronoucelike "desert" without the T and the R swapped to the left? I prefer the latter.
Des-r

[PCD]

Oh Hussie, you card.

[Geminex]

THAT'S OUR HUSSIE.

[Loyal]

Re: Recent Updates.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ugi35z.png

[Ryong]

I honestly was expecting "THIS IS STUPID!" for Karkat kissing Kanaya and Terezi kissing Tavros, but hey.

[Flarecobra]

I can just hear the record scratch now.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I can just hear the record scratch now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRp_mVi969I

[Aldurin]

Now that fourth wall stuff is pushing it. I mean, does anybody care about Rufio?

[Bard The 5th LW]

Everyone cares about Rufio.

I don't see why people dislike the fourth wall stuff so much. They're pretty fun at times.

[Aldurin]

They are but this one I just don't like for some reason.

[Kim]

HOOK NOOOOO~

[Geminex]

There needs to be a HONK somehwhere in that picture.

[Loyal]

Everyone cares about Rufio.

I don't see why people dislike the fourth wall stuff so much. They're pretty fun at times.Mood whiplash, largely.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Homestuck is pretty largely built on the Mood Whiplash.

They should be used to it by now.

[Loyal]

Not so much "used to" as "inundated".

On a personal note, Homestuck, due to the rapid and frequent shifts between funny and serious, story-relevant and nonsensical, doesn't get any kind of emotional response out of me anymore. Except for laughter from some of the funnier stuff. I get more enjoyment out of the fanart/romart/fanfic threads than the comic proper.

At the moment I'm keeping up with the comic not because I enjoy it, but out of habit, and because Homestuck references go around often enough that I can't really afford not to know what's going on with it. Also, Trollslum.

[PCD]

Hmm. Anyone else remember how, in Alterniabound, Gamzee straight up says he's terrified of Vriska? Sure, he was still on the pies back then, but honestly that's pretty much the first time we ever saw him anything but completely okay with everything ever.

Also
TC: it rots you.
TC: RUSTS YOUR MOTHERFUCKIN THINK PAN.
TC: and the floor all stares up back at you through the motherfuckin hole.
TC: BUT THERE IS NO HOLE NOW.
So what he's saying is....

There was a HOLE here.
It's gone now.

[Art of Hilt]

Several characters die

Oh god no this is the worst, I am struck blind by these sudden, permanent dea-

SBaHJ panel

-ths. These sudden and permanent deaths. They're just so trag-

Terezi/Tavros pucker scene

-ic and sad and I just know that they're never going to come back so-

RUFIOOOO

-I-

HUSSIE SELF INSERT

-don't-

THIS
IS
S T U P I D

-... okay fuck it there's no way this is the last we're going to see of these characters, who is he fooling.

[Arhra]

So Rufio was that Rufio!

I always suspected.

That is one of the few films to have the main character's former love interest also be his grandma.

[Locke cole]

-... okay fuck it there's no way this is the last we're going to see of these characters, who is he fooling.

But the deaths are consistent with how the world works in this comic. Unless something unexpected and until this point completely unknown changes the way death works, they ain't coming back.

Ever.

[Amake]

With the way the perception of time works in the comic there's nothing to suggest we won't see them again of course.

[Locke cole]

And there are people suggesting that Kanaya will turn into one of those Alternian vampires, hence Scratch's warning.

[Art of Hilt]

But the deaths are consistent with how the world works in this comic. Unless something unexpected and until this point completely unknown changes the way death works, they ain't coming back.

Ever.

There was never, ever any chance of them being resurrected by previously known methods of resurrection. Dramatically speaking. Otherwise the deaths would ring hollow until we see what happened to their dreamselves, etc.

Yeah before I was convinced that they were removed entirely from the story but after reading the whole Eridan-kills-everyone arc at once and having it end at THIS IS S-T-U-P-I-D, a self-parody repeat of events which we have already seen and already making fun of itself with Terezi/Tavros, it just got popped. It was stupid. Side-splittingly hilarious, yes. But stupid. And it colored the events that it parodied. I don't think that's by accident.

Of course I could be wrong. But. Just seems weird.

Anyway ten dollars on Rose's blackout to Rainbow Road being connected to Kanaya floating around in the afterlife Feferi-style.
Also the phrase "Fairy God Troll" will suddenly pop up and be relevant. Twenty dollars.

[MuMu]

Well, we've seen Trolls ghosts already, including Aradia of course, so it wouldn't be much of an asspull to see Kan or Tavvy floating around. And we could have Tavros meeting with Vriska again.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Tavros haunting Vriska?

[A Zarkin' Frood]

That's something I'd love to see.
I can only imagine Vriska's reactions to a Tavros she can't get rid of.

[Solid Snake]

And there are people suggesting that Kanaya will turn into one of those Alternian vampires, hence Scratch's warning.

I think Andrew made a huge mistake in killing off Kanaya in the manner that he did, but I think I'd be even more disappointed if an undead twist was used as a cop-out to ensure that Kanaya continued to influence the story.

I do, however, hope that after losing her Dreamself Rose can interact with dead-Kanaya as Jade did with Dead-Feferi.

[Locke cole]

I think Andrew made a huge mistake in killing off Kanaya in the manner that he did, but I think I'd be even more disappointed if an undead twist was used as a cop-out to ensure that Kanaya continued to influence the story.

I do, however, hope that after losing her Dreamself Rose can interact with dead-Kanaya as Jade did with Dead-Feferi.

I dunno. I think that if she turned into a rainbow-drinker, the only way she'd continue to influence the story would be as yet another roving killer in the asteroid.

[Arcanum]

Rainbow Drinkers are fakey fake fakes, just like fairies and magic.

However I do have the feeling that all the friends that Dream Jade made while she was dead were the trolls that died, or at least their dead Dream Selves, out in the Dream Bubbles of the Horrorterrors.

[Art of Hilt]

Hussie's seamless transitioning skills smoothly comes into play in this latest update.

[Locke cole]

Rainbow Drinkers are fakey fake fakes, just like fairies and magic.

Dunno. Kanaya's intro sure talked about the daywalking undead as if they were documented fact.

[Art of Hilt]

re kanaya's intro and death in Homestuck, as i figure it the most relevant line to consider and anticipate a callback to is not that there are undead things everywhere, but that death is pretty confusing without the finality (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004229).

[Fifthfiend]

Dunno. Kanaya's intro sure talked about the daywalking undead as if they were documented fact.

I talk about Superman like he's a documented fact.

WHICH HE IS

[Arcanum]

Dunno. Kanaya's intro sure talked about the daywalking undead as if they were documented fact.

Rainbow Drinkers are fakey fake fakes, just like fairies and magic.

One of these things is not like the other things (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WhuikFY1Pg)

[Solid Snake]

Why does it increasingly feel like I'm reading the aftermath of an author's nervous breakdown?
...It's at this moment that I wish Andrew had an editor or a co-writer to say "Hey, buddy, we're all for the zany stuff, but let's not take it too far."

[Loyal]

Does this mean the Andrufio kiss is going to become relevant?

[Geminex]

Bluh.
I'm not too happy with the recent developments either. The deaths were handled terribly, and you guys are right. Andrew may be having fun trolling the readers, but I thiiink he's taking it too far. He's nearing the endgame, shit be gettin' dramatic, and he could really make use of that to really let homestuck shine. I'm not saying it has to be super-serious! I like the comedic undertone. And I know he wants to retain it. But there's better ways to do that.

But he has delivered in the past, and, after the excellence of Hivebent, Imma give him the benefit of the doubt. I wanna see where he's going with this. If it is indeed "Lol, 2 characters dead", then I will be the first to fill his formspring with angry accusations. But until then, I'll withhold judgement.

[Aldurin]

The wallet is the most underwhelming update in a long while.

[Geminex]

Hey, the wallet is cool.

At least it is if you wield it with responsibility and integrity.

I don't mind silly stuff like this. Just RufioxHussie was kinda silly.

[Art of Hilt]

The wallet is the most underwhelming update in a long while.

Only if you haven't parsed the full implications of a man dropping his modus with a note leaving his only son an inheritance.

He's dead.

[Wigmund]

In the next series of updates we're gonna find Mom's flask.

And then John will find them on top of the rock they were sitting on top of the last time we saw them. Dead.

Bec Noir will be there to taunt him with Lil Cal before teleporting away.

[Amake]

A sudden theory about the wallet's fetch modus:
It can theoretically hold infinite items, but as you put them in in the number of old receipts and photos and coins and pocket lint and and condoms and plastic cards you don't even know where you got and business cards and little notes with phone numbers you have to rifle through before you find what you're looking for increases exponentially until it becomes unmanageable.

PS. Check out my trollavatar! I'm on the bandwagon, and it feels good. Especially as I only had to add horns to my constant picture.

[Arcanum]

Well I think we know how John is going to bring the Tumor to Rose now, if that's even the plan still.

[Flarecobra]

Holy shit that's a lot of shaving cream.

[Locke cole]

Meh. Looks like about an afternoon's worth for a real man.

[Malek]

It may also explain why we've never seen any of the facial features of John's Dad.

[Wigmund]

I personally hope John keeps finding Dad Notes in random places. Including Vriska's forehead when the kids and trolls meet up...

SON.

IF YOU ARE READING THIS NOTE, IT MEANS YOU ARE IN STORE FOR SOME SLOPPY HUMAN/ALIEN MAKE-OUT SESSIONS.
DO HUMANITY PROUD FOR YOU ARE NOW A MAN AND ARE FOLLOWING IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THE GREAT CAPTAIN JAMES T. KIRK.

WATCH OUT FOR HER SHARP TEETH AND WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T MESS WITH HER HORNS.

I AM SO, SO PROUD OF YOU SON.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I personally hope John keeps finding Dad Notes in random places. Including Vriska's forehead when the kids and trolls meet up...

SON.

IF YOU ARE READING THIS NOTE, IT MEANS YOU ARE IN STORE FOR SOME SLOPPY HUMAN/ALIEN MAKE-OUT SESSIONS.
DO HUMANITY PROUD FOR YOU ARE NOW A MAN AND ARE FOLLOWING IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THE GREAT CAPTAIN JAMES T. KIRK.

WATCH OUT FOR HER SHARP TEETH AND WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T MESS WITH HER HORNS.

I AM SO, SO PROUD OF YOU SON.

A few hours of conversation and wooing later...

SON.

IF YOU ARE READING THIS NOTE, YOU MAY HAVE REALIZED YOU'RE NOT EXACTLY GOING WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE.
MY BAD.
I AM STILL PRETTY PROUD OF YOU, SON.

[Bard The 5th LW]

A few hours of conversation and wooing later...

SON.

IF YOU ARE READING THIS NOTE, YOU MAY HAVE REALIZED YOU'RE NOT EXACTLY GOING WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE.
MY BAD.
I AM STILL PRETTY PROUD OF YOU, SON.

Im not sure if I should rep this or report this.

[Art of Hilt]

I'll be honest.
The parent/child relationships in the comic hits me harder than anything else in the entire thing.
Like if Hussie wrote out all of the combat and the shipping and just focused on the parent/child plots I wouldn't mind at all.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Im not sure if I should rep this or report this.

I could probably think of worse, if that helps make your decision.

[stefan]

CROSBYTOP OUT OF FUCKING NOWHERE

[Art of Hilt]

THE MAN CARRIES AROUND A SPARE CAR

HE CARRIES AROUND A SPARE FUCKING CAR

IN HIS FUCKING WALLET

shit looks like john won't have to worry about carrying the tumor any more

[Geminex]

Fathers: THEY ARE PREPARED.

[Locke cole]

TEN TONS OF TOBACCO.

Suddenly this page (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=001968) just seems silly.

[Arcanum]

Just goes to show the might of the Wallet modus, the very best modus around.

Also, from [S] John: Enter Village:

John: hmm, i already adopted one young salamander today. but, then i left her at my friend's house...
John: so i think i'll let you be. i dunno if i'm cut out to be a dad!
John: i mean, i dont even have a tie, or a pipe, or a really serious looking wallet or anything.

Could this be a case of OMINOUS FORESHADOWING? It damn well better be!

[Solid Snake]

...It occurs to me that as upset as I was with Kanaya's death, if anything bad whatsoever happens to John that results in a permanent demise for him I will go apeshit ballistic on Andrew Hussie's ass.

...That is a threat I fully intend to follow up on.

...Also I want John to see his father again and I want him to find true happiness with anyone but Vriska, if Andrew dares to write John and Vriska as anything resembling a serious couple or "redeems" her through him or some shit while Rose is lonely and alone because John's smooching that monster and Kanaya is dead my spirit will haunt Andrew in the depths of hell for all eternity.

[POS Industries]

For what it's worth, the only character death whose permanence can be stated with certainty is Bro, because Bro is dead and never ever coming back ever. As we all know. As for the trolls, they are dead, but it's not like Aradia hasn't proven from her introduction that being dead ever stopped anyone.

Except Bro.

And it seems that we've already seen Feferi communicating through Jade's dreams after her death, so I wouldn't necessarily count these characters out of the story just yet. Just count them out of their mortal coil, which is still also sad.

[Kim]

Now I really want something awful to happen to John.

[Flarecobra]

Guess it's safe to assume whited-out eyes is this thing's equivlent to a halo for Trolls.

[Amake]

Guess I was onto something with the near-infinite storage wallet theory. Of course I didn't suspect it would have room for apparently infinitely large items. Ten tons of tobacco? That's like, ten thousand years of pipe fuel.

So yeah some silly things happened huh. How inconsiderate of Hussie to try to be funny, what are we supposed to dissect and augur by its intestines the future when there's no action or drama?

[greed]

Update.

"Honk honk out of the way fuckass!" This is going to be amazing.

[PCD]

Excuse me, I need to get a shot of insulin, this is giving me adorabetes.

[Amake]

Cars in Homestuck go beep beep rather than honk or wroom. I always thought that was just to make the "beep beep meow" line funnier, but obviously it had sinister implications all along. I mean imagine if that panel had said honk instead of beep.

Honk.

[Wigmund]

...It occurs to me that as upset as I was with Kanaya's death, if anything bad whatsoever happens to John that results in a permanent demise for him I will go apeshit ballistic on Andrew Hussie's ass.

I could see John dying towards the end of the story as a sacrifice to bring everyone else back to life.

[Locke cole]

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/03404_1.gif

The best thing.

[Geminex]

The absolutely best thing.

[Art of Hilt]

JOYRIDIN WITH WV
that is the most glorious thing how did this happen

[Amake]

John: Do the windy thing in the car. (Maybe roll down the windows first.)

[Art of Hilt]

John walks into the car. WV gets distracted and gets out of the car.
With the keys.

CARSTUCK

[Aldurin]

WV has to be the best exile, not even Droog can touch that style he has.

[Art of Hilt]

OH MY GOD
JOHN SHOULD ALCHEMIZE THE CAR WITH THE ROCKET PACK
Y/YYYYYYYY?

[Kim]

The Gunnerkrigg guy drew a Karkat apparently.

http://oi56.tinypic.com/jt8oys.jpg

[Art of Hilt]

obligatory

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3213/1296470844258.gif

[synkr0nized]

Well, that's all rather saddening.


Maybe I can uselessly take hope in this (http://www.formspring.me/mspadventures/q/155551344390872114):

Something to note is the four trolls featured on this page:

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005284

Are the first four we were introduced to in the story.

What does that MEAN, you ask?

~_^

[Ryong]

It means Hussie is trolling us. I think that's all.

[synkr0nized]

"uselessly take hope"




Long story short I haven't "cared" about any other deaths and yet Kanaya's makes me http://home.comcast.net/~synkr0nized/forumz/SA_smith.gif and I will gladly grasp at any straws I can.

[Bard The 5th LW]

The Gunnerkrigg guy drew a Karkat apparently.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/233356150.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1296497736&Signature=UyWFqlaNVzHM%2B4CRQbh6kkKgnWw%3D

Link doesn't seem to be working.

[Kim]

Fixed.

[Locke cole]

Angry and sleep-deprived. It works. (Of course, Tom has always been good with eyes.)

There is so much that could be done with the car.

Car || Telescopic Sassacrusher = best hammer ever

Car && Ghostbusters Poster || Ghost Gauntlets = telekinetically-controlled ECTO-1.

[russianreversal]

Odds of this car arriving at any destination intact: ~0.

EDIT: In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the next ==> is simply them driving off a cliff.

[MuMu]

Odds of this car arriving at any destination intact: ~0.

EDIT: In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the next ==> is simply them driving off a cliff.

I'm hoping this is how WV gets into a portal to Future!Earth.

[Fifthfiend]

Angry and sleep-deprived. It works. (Of course, Tom has always been good with eyes.)

Shipping him and Zimmy :3

[Aldurin]

Actually Dad is now the Droog-equivalent of the human session, since he has enough sense to keep a backup car in his wallet at all times, and makes sure he never runs out of shaving/smoking implements.

[stefan]

I think that the best we can expect here is that John somehow uses the car to alchemize the flying Chevy malibu from Repo Man, really.

[Arcanum]

If only fedorafreak had a wallet modus before the apocalypse hit! He could have been saved the misfortune of losing all of his fedoras! And his family, I guess.

[Aldurin]

I love how horribly this is going to end.

[POS Industries]

the car ruse was a... DISTACTION.

gamzee has the cloud.

[Flarecobra]

Heh. Nice SBAHJ.

[Marc v4.0]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesss sss

[Locke cole]

No, see, Gamzee is a "cloun".

[Fifthfiend]

excellent use of the spraypaint tool

[Solid Snake]

Long story short I haven't "cared" about any other deaths and yet Kanaya's makes me http://home.comcast.net/~synkr0nized/forumz/SA_smith.gif and I will gladly grasp at any straws I can.

...I feel strangely compelled to write a lengthy Solid Snake style Wall of Text as to why I feel killing off Kanaya was a poorly rationalized decision by Andrew.
...but it's hard to tell that definitively because I suppose it's still a serialized story and he could theoretically find a way to bring adequate closure to Kanaya's storyline without some ludicrous resurrection shenanigans.

The Gamzee callback there does seem to suggest that we might be switching perspective back to the trolls. I'd hope so. John and WV have given us a nice interlude, but whatever cathartic crescendo Andrew is building towards in the Hivebent climax really needs to be definitively resolved.

[Marc v4.0]

It seemed a badly executed and hastily decided death because we just saw Her and Fishasshole being very nice to each other in a completely non-"I'm going to kill you for no fucking reason what-so-ever" manner. As I pointed out from the actual scene, he was side-glaring at her as she stood there in shock, FOR NO REASON.

Of course, considering Ms. Plot Device Mary-Sue MacGuffin, a poorly executed and pointless death scene that had no context what-so-ever shouldn't be a surprise

[Art of Hilt]

...I feel strangely compelled to write a lengthy Solid Snake style Wall of Text as to why I feel killing off Kanaya was a poorly rationalized decision by Andrew.
...but it's hard to tell that definitively because I suppose it's still a serialized story and he could theoretically find a way to bring adequate closure to Kanaya's storyline without some ludicrous resurrection shenanigans.


Considering the girl with the vampire motif spent 90% of her screentime with the girl crazy enough to play an apocalyptic videogame just for a chance to bring her cat back from the dead as well as the chance to explore the game's catacombs securing the dark twisting paths to necromancy (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002340), then I can see a resurrection happening without it being ludicrous.

Then again that's pretty much the very definition of wishful thinking, so.

ps- There's pretty much no way that flying car isn't going to crash into a Hard Rock hotel.

[Fifthfiend]

considering Ms. Plot Device Mary-Sue MacGuffin, a poorly executed and pointless death scene that had no context what-so-ever shouldn't be a surprise

We aren't talking about Vriska.

[Kim]

He's saying that because there's a character like Vriska, a shitty death scene shouldn't be surprising.

Of course, I loved the death scene. :D

I also love when Vriska is being just regular awful, like killing Tavros, even though I hate her when she's being Aizen.

[Overcast]

I think at that point he was blasting anyone that looked like they were up to threaten him. Hence blasting Fef, he was a mile and a half beyond anyone getting in his way anymore. He turned around to appearifier and there is Kanya, but he is still grimacing his little battle grimace and she doesn't look happy. So she is another obstacle. So he killed her, and her hope.

The only person who wasn't an obvious threat was kinda hiding in the background, Karkat.

[Loyal]

No, he had a staredown with Kanaya, and then he HOPE'd the matriorb, completely unprovoked. Then she attacked (understandably), and he killed her.

Like, if he had just walked out of the transportalizer after killing Fef, Kanaya likely would have made it an immediate priority to check on Fef/Sollux with Karkat. She wasn't a threat until he provoked her into becoming a threat.

[Kim]

Kanaya was going to attack him, as was Fef, so him attacking them makes sense. I mean, he's always been a total fuckwad who was, in case you forgot, trying to kill all the surface dwellers. His immediate response to encountering something non-hostile in his world was to kill them all. He's a very bad person and not a particularly smart one either. This really fits in line with that.

As for why Karkat didn't stop him, I think there are two very simple explanations for that.

1. Karkat is not as brave as some might like to believe.
OR
2. He was in shock.

Both are likely, though I'd lean more towards the latter than the former, in part because Karkat has killed a bunch of stuff, but also because we really have no frame of reference for how long that took, plus Karkat would honestly be genuinely surprised at it all happening. Hell, the audience was.

Plus, it was established forever ago that the trolls were all going to die, IIRC. This is Hussie keeping that promise, so it's not out of nowhere, and with a race as awful as the trolls, even though a lot of these are really nice ones, that they'd be their own demise does make a degree of sense, especially when you've got characters like Vriska and Eriden in the mix.

NINJA'D: Point, though I return to my "Eriden is just plain awful" point.

[Arcanum]

Eridan has a genocide complex. We've known this since he was introduced. He saw the matriorb and maybe something clicked that there was his chance. So he blew it up and accomplished his dreams of genocide. In addition to that he also fulfilled what he believes was his role as the Prince of Hope; someone who destroys hope. Sure that may not have been the game's intention, but it also wasn't the game's intention for Eridan to murder the Angels in his world. After all, like what Nonsie said, Eridan is a terrible troll, even by troll standards.

[Loyal]

NINJA'D: Point, though I return to my "Eriden is just plain awful" point.Agreed. Unfortunately, whatever characterization he might have had toward his awfulness has been stifled by an utter lack of screentime. As a result, the reader's seeing a hopeless romantic whose onscreen appearances have shown him as somewhere between lukewarm and downright friendly toward his fellow troll (his backstory Dualscar shenanigans notwithstanding). And then, from the reader's perspective, he suddenly turns into a batshit psycho over the course of a single conversation, murdering his ex-crush and close friend in one go.

By comparison, Vriska gets a lot of screentime (all the screentime, etc), exhaustively and unmistakably painting her as an unrepentant monster who just loves what she does. Despite her feelings toward Tavros, his death is expected and, looking back, inevitable without interference from a third party.

[Bard The 5th LW]

By comparison, Vriska gets a lot of screentime (all the screentime, etc), exhaustively and unmistakably painting her as an unrepentant monster who just loves what she does. Despite her feelings toward Tavros, his death is expected and, looking back, inevitable without interference from a third party.

Agreed. More or less, Vriska is predictable. Gamzee and Eridan? Not so much, but it was always possible with Eridan.

[Marc v4.0]

Again, Kanaya had NOT MADE A MOVE for anything and he just glared around and capped her one. He just had a civil and friendly conversation with her. We can only -guess- she was going to do something, because he didn't even give her a chance to not get in his way, making her an obstacle for really no reason. I know, land trolls, genocide, bluh bluh, his actions are poorly executed by the story during that line of scenes

Just Turrible.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Again, Kanaya had NOT MADE A MOVE for anything and he just glared around and capped her one. He just had a civil and friendly conversation with her. We can only -guess- she was going to do something, because he didn't even give her a chance to not get in his way, making her an obstacle for really no reason. I know, land trolls, genocide, bluh bluh, his actions are poorly executed by the story during that line of scenes

Just Turrible.

From a character perspective, it was a terrible thing to do. But from a story perspective it makes pretty good sense.

Since terrible people do terrible things.

[Specterbane]

Actually, in the last "game" update, if you check out Kanaya while as Eridan he says he'll "help" her with the matriorb once he's done. Likewise, Kanaya wasn't attacked till she charged him with her lipstick. So Eridan attacking Kanaya isn't all that surprising, however him going after the orb was just to crush her hope. Which he feels is his role, telling when all hope is lost.

Over all I'd say the game's been trying to make him realize everything can't go his way and he's been completely oblivious to it, cause he's royalty or whatever reason he feels like giving for why he shouldn't have to try in order to get what he wants.

[Overcast]

Indeed, remember that when kanya is holding her lipstick at the ready like that it should feel exactly the same as if she had her hand on the pullstart. The lipstick is the chainsaw and vicer versa.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Also, just to sort of interject this here:
I'm still holding out hope Vriska might turn out to somehow not be horrendously evil and whatnot, since I think she and John are pretty cute together.
That is all.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7668/02732.gif

[Solid Snake]

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

I mean, he's always been a total fuckwad who was, in case you forgot, trying to kill all the surface dwellers.

He's a total fuckwad who "was trying to kill all surface dwellers" but who deliberately exempted Kanaya from said threats even before she went out of her way to make him that nice wand, and who he profusely and (in my interpretation) honestly thanked for believing in him mere moments before he provoked her and killed her.

Now, I have no fundamental issue with Eridan deciding that his role as the Prince of Hope really was about hopelessness. I have no problem with the conceptualization of Eridan plotting to destroy the matriorb and deceiving Kanaya to garner her trust so she'd make him his weapon of mass destruction.

The problem is everything we've been told about Eridan up until that point suggested exactly the opposite about him. He is not Vriska. He is not Terezi. He is not a brilliant genius. He is awkward socially, and incapable of deceiving just about anyone. He is a lonely, desperate troll who is eager to please even the "land-dwellers" he's presumably so interested in killing. If there were additional layers to him, we needed to see that as readers in some way before Eridan became the character he is now.

That's part of my problem with Eridan's development in a nutshell: it's difficult for me to believe that Hussie really thought through the ramifications of the character when he created someone who's arguably even more bipolar than Sollux and even more schizophrenic than Gamzee. I think Andrew's goal was something akin to "I want to really flesh out Eridan so he's not just a generic villain, and so that readers are legitimately shocked when he goes apeshit bananas," but the problem is his most recent development completely contradicts what we know about him, and does so in a way that cheapens the resulting deaths and destruction. Eridan "hates all surface dwellers" and yet he's desperate to start relationships with them: he is a powerful murderous jackass but he's so very lonely. And heck, you can't even rely on a genocidal justification for Eridan's motivations because the first thing he kills is the one other sea-dweller present.

Despite this, Feferi's death wasn't a huge issue for me because it makes sense, from Eridan's perspective. The two have a long history, Feferi rejected Eridan's advances and ultimately his friendship, and while all kinds of anti-feminist bullshit is indirectly enforced through a writer's decision to have a spurned dude enact some dorky loser male's revenge fantasy (not exactly the best message to send to Hussie's target audience, I'd argue), at least the author hasn't provided any half-assed "justifications" for Eridan's actions.

(Nonetheless, as a brief aside, going back to earlier arguments, I think one of Andrew's critical mistakes was refusing to settle for either fully fleshing Eridan into a sympathetic, lonely shades-of-grey douchebag, or just making him totally despicable and irredeemable from the get-go. By toning down Eridan's genocidal interests and making him so laughably pathetic early on, Andrew had to completely drop that line of development and redirect Eridan to ensure he went on this recent murder spree in a way that was jarring to readers, and also increased the possibility that readers could actually sympathize with the bastard. I think it's a case of the author trying to have his cake and eat it too; it's very difficult to write a character this despicable and also give him depth. It might have been easier to swallow if Eridan was always far more brazenly hostile to and dismissive of all the land-dwellers, including Karkat and Kanaya. At least that would enable a more consistent characterization.)

Kanaya's death was just completely out-of-left field for me though precisely because Andrew apparently deceived me into believing that Eridan, despite being a complete douchebag, was still a douchebag with some layer of depth. Past updates built up the notion that he viewed Kanaya as a friend and the one troll who "actually believed in him." If Eridan was being snarky and sarcastic, we weren't given any indication that he was really playing a role of master manipulator. And given Eridan's personality, why would he possibly want to kill the one person left in the universe he holds some respect towards? What does he actually gain in killing off Kanaya? If he's willing to kill Kanaya why wouldn't he finish off Sollux while Karkat is standing there twaddling his thumbs, given that he really hated Sollux and he actually liked Kanaya?

(The mental image that pops into my head is one of the Columbine shooters killing the one teacher who befriended them and helped them train in paintball or lasertag or something, while sparing the bully who made their lives particularly miserable. Even in the context of characters we assume have lost their marbles and dived into sociopathy, it doesn't make much sense.)

And if he's willing to kill off Kanaya, why not kill off Karkat too? In other words, if Andrew's really redefining Eridan into a sociopathic spree murderer who wants to murder all the land-dwellers indiscriminately...why does he spare one?

The only explanation that makes sense is that Eridan killed Kanaya but spared Karkat and Sollux because Andrew's plot demanded it. In other words, for reasons unrelated to Eridan's actual contextual motivations, Andrew had predetermined that he needed Karkat and Sollux "alive" to conduct future plot shenanigans while Kanaya was "expendable." Her death was chosen for the sole reason to shock the readers and prove that "anyone can die" without actually killing someone on the level of Karkat or Vriska.

What's unfortunate is even presuming that Andrew needed Sollux and Karkat to live and needed Kanaya to die, there are multiple alternative ways Andrew could have written that sequence of events so Eridan's actions would be far more believable and a consistent character portrait of him would emerge. I've already spelled out a few possibilities in earlier posts in this thread and this Wall of Text is going to be long enough, so I won't go there again.

Additionally, even assuming Kanaya had to die, there are ultimately other ways Andrew could have written her death sequence so as to avoid trivializing her passing in the manner that he did. For starters, scrap the Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff reference, that was just silly. If the character's really being permanently offed, give her some measure of finality before she passes on. That doesn't mean giving her a "happily ever after ending", but it does mean ensuring that the readers can't view her death as completely pointless or arbitrary.

Hell, even if Kanaya is simply defending Karkat or Sollux in that scene, or even if Kanaya had a last conversation (however ambiguous) with Rose, or even if Eridan and Kanaya simply had a dialogue before their battle in which Eridan attempted to spare her (he blows up the matriorb, then attempts to justify his action to the one troll who he appreciates, and tells her she should just abscond, and Kanaya is infuriated, so she refuses)...there's just so many simple, unobtrusive ways that the quality of the narrative could have been preserved, and ways that Kanaya's death would actually feel adequately foreshadowed and required by the plot, as opposed to dictated on an arbitrary whim.

I haven't even gotten into why I feel Kanaya's death (however inadvertently) feeds into hetero-normative assumptions in storytelling, but an attempt to start that conversation in the MSPA forums resulted in hordes of folks there claiming I was accusing Andrew of being "biased against gays" (I wasn't) or "requiring Kanaya to live because you defined her as a lesbian" (That wasn't the case either.) So maybe I shouldn't touch that subject.

TLDR: Gamzee and Eridan were once intriguing, well-developed and consistently portrayed characters who I was sincerely interested in. They've been since reduced into one-note, two-dimensional villains.

Vriska was once a complex, multifaceted and well-developed character (who I always personally disliked, but who I at least once appreciated) who has been reduced into an omnipresent Mary Sue.

Kanaya was a complex, multi-facted and well-developed character whose relevance to the plot has now been undone by her death. Either she stays dead, in which every moment we invested in her was essentially worthless as she ultimately did nothing of value in the trolls' session to merit her development, or she comes back to life in a way that cheapens her dying and reduces her "death" into a fake-out designed to simply shock the readers.

Tavros wasn't really complex, but I did kind of hope his character would have a purpose of some sort...and he really didn't, aside from just serving as the luckless chump in Vriska's constant "success stories."

Feferi's dead too, but yeah, I won't pretend to have cared about Feferi.

Still, we went from a storyline in Hivebent that seemed to have twelve really phenomenal characters...to finding out that about half of those characters did not have the shades-of-grey depth that they could have had. I don't doubt that a character as significant as Karkat will either die heroically or live on in a way that resonates with readers and validates his participation in Hivebent, but I'd compare it to investing in watching LOST (the TV show) only to find out that the show you thought was about a massive, diverse, multi-dimensional cast was really all about Jack Shepard and every other character was essentially merely a tool utilized by the writers to ensure that Jack's single-character epic journey was fulfilled.

And holy shit did I just ramble on incoherently there. Solid Snake Walls of Text are back in style.

[Marc v4.0]

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING



He's a total fuckwad who "was trying to kill all surface dwellers" but who deliberately exempted Kanaya from said threats even before she went out of her way to make him that nice wand, and who he profusely and (in my interpretation) honestly thanked for believing in him mere moments before he provoked her and killed her.

Now, I have no fundamental issue with Eridan deciding that his role as the Prince of Hope really was about hopelessness. I have no problem with the conceptualization of Eridan plotting to destroy the matriorb and deceiving Kanaya to garner her trust so she'd make him his weapon of mass destruction.

The problem is everything we've been told about Eridan up until that point suggested exactly the opposite about him. He is not Vriska. He is not Terezi. He is not a brilliant genius. He is awkward socially, and incapable of deceiving just about anyone. He is a lonely, desperate troll who is eager to please even the "land-dwellers" he's presumably so interested in killing. If there were additional layers to him, we needed to see that as readers in some way before Eridan became the character he is now.

That's part of my problem with Eridan's development in a nutshell: it's difficult for me to believe that Hussie really thought through the ramifications of the character when he created someone who's arguably even more bipolar than Sollux and even more schizophrenic than Gamzee. I think Andrew's goal was something akin to "I want to really flesh out Eridan so he's not just a generic villain, and so that readers are legitimately shocked when he goes apeshit bananas," but the problem is his most recent development completely contradicts what we know about him, and does so in a way that cheapens the resulting deaths and destruction. Eridan "hates all surface dwellers" and yet he's desperate to start relationships with them: he is a powerful murderous jackass but he's so very lonely. And heck, you can't even rely on a genocidal justification for Eridan's motivations because the first thing he kills is the one other sea-dweller present.

Despite this, Feferi's death wasn't a huge issue for me because it makes sense, from Eridan's perspective. The two have a long history, Feferi rejected Eridan's advances and ultimately his friendship, and while all kinds of anti-feminist bullshit is indirectly enforced through a writer's decision to have a spurned dude enact some dorky loser male's revenge fantasy (not exactly the best message to send to Hussie's target audience, I'd argue), at least the author hasn't provided any half-assed "justifications" for Eridan's actions.

(Nonetheless, as a brief aside, going back to earlier arguments, I think one of Andrew's critical mistakes was refusing to settle for either fully fleshing Eridan into a sympathetic, lonely shades-of-grey douchebag, or just making him totally despicable and irredeemable from the get-go. By toning down Eridan's genocidal interests and making him so laughably pathetic early on, Andrew had to completely drop that line of development and redirect Eridan to ensure he went on this recent murder spree in a way that was jarring to readers, and also increased the possibility that readers could actually sympathize with the bastard. I think it's a case of the author trying to have his cake and eat it too; it's very difficult to write a character this despicable and also give him depth. It might have been easier to swallow if Eridan was always far more brazenly hostile to and dismissive of all the land-dwellers, including Karkat and Kanaya. At least that would enable a more consistent characterization.)

Kanaya's death was just completely out-of-left field for me though precisely because Andrew apparently deceived me into believing that Eridan, despite being a complete douchebag, was still a douchebag with some layer of depth. Past updates built up the notion that he viewed Kanaya as a friend and the one troll who "actually believed in him." If Eridan was being snarky and sarcastic, we weren't given any indication that he was really playing a role of master manipulator. And given Eridan's personality, why would he possibly want to kill the one person left in the universe he holds some respect towards? What does he actually gain in killing off Kanaya? If he's willing to kill Kanaya why wouldn't he finish off Sollux while Karkat is standing there twaddling his thumbs, given that he really hated Sollux and he actually liked Kanaya?

(The mental image that pops into my head is one of the Columbine shooters killing the one teacher who befriended them and helped them train in paintball or lasertag or something, while sparing the bully who made their lives particularly miserable. Even in the context of characters we assume have lost their marbles and dived into sociopathy, it doesn't make much sense.)

And if he's willing to kill off Kanaya, why not kill off Karkat too? In other words, if Andrew's really redefining Eridan into a sociopathic spree murderer who wants to murder all the land-dwellers indiscriminately...why does he spare one?

The only explanation that makes sense is that Eridan killed Kanaya but spared Karkat and Sollux because Andrew's plot demanded it. In other words, for reasons unrelated to Eridan's actual contextual motivations, Andrew had predetermined that he needed Karkat and Sollux "alive" to conduct future plot shenanigans while Kanaya was "expendable." Her death was chosen for the sole reason to shock the readers and prove that "anyone can die" without actually killing someone on the level of Karkat or Vriska.

What's unfortunate is even presuming that Andrew needed Sollux and Karkat to live and needed Kanaya to die, there are multiple alternative ways Andrew could have written that sequence of events so Eridan's actions would be far more believable and a consistent character portrait of him would emerge. I've already spelled out a few possibilities in earlier posts in this thread and this Wall of Text is going to be long enough, so I won't go there again.

Additionally, even assuming Kanaya had to die, there are ultimately other ways Andrew could have written her death sequence so as to avoid trivializing her passing in the manner that he did. For starters, scrap the Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff reference, that was just silly. If the character's really being permanently offed, give her some measure of finality before she passes on. That doesn't mean giving her a "happily ever after ending", but it does mean ensuring that the readers can't view her death as completely pointless or arbitrary.

Hell, even if Kanaya is simply defending Karkat or Sollux in that scene, or even if Kanaya had a last conversation (however ambiguous) with Rose, or even if Eridan and Kanaya simply had a dialogue before their battle in which Eridan attempted to spare her (he blows up the matriorb, then attempts to justify his action to the one troll who he appreciates, and tells her she should just abscond, and Kanaya is infuriated, so she refuses)...there's just so many simple, unobtrusive ways that the quality of the narrative could have been preserved, and ways that Kanaya's death would actually feel adequately foreshadowed and required by the plot, as opposed to dictated on an arbitrary whim.

I haven't even gotten into why I feel Kanaya's death (however inadvertently) feeds into hetero-normative assumptions in storytelling, but an attempt to start that conversation in the MSPA forums resulted in hordes of folks there claiming I was accusing Andrew of being "biased against gays" (I wasn't) or "requiring Kanaya to live because you defined her as a lesbian" (That wasn't the case either.) So maybe I shouldn't touch that subject.

TLDR: Gamzee and Eridan were once intriguing, well-developed and consistently portrayed characters who I was sincerely interested in. They've been since reduced into one-note, two-dimensional villains.

Vriska was once a complex, multifaceted and well-developed character (who I always personally disliked, but who I at least once appreciated) who has been reduced into an omnipresent Mary Sue.

Kanaya was a complex, multi-facted and well-developed character whose relevance to the plot has now been undone by her death. Either she stays dead, in which every moment we invested in her was essentially worthless as she ultimately did nothing of value in the trolls' session to merit her development, or she comes back to life in a way that cheapens her dying and reduces her "death" into a fake-out designed to simply shock the readers.

Tavros wasn't really complex, but I did kind of hope his character would have a purpose of some sort...and he really didn't, aside from just serving as the luckless chump in Vriska's constant "success stories."

Feferi's dead too, but yeah, I won't pretend to have cared about Feferi.

Still, we went from a storyline in Hivebent that seemed to have twelve really phenomenal characters...to finding out that about half of those characters did not have the shades-of-grey depth that they could have had. I don't doubt that a character Karkat will either die heroically or live on in a way that resonates with readers and validates his participation in Homestuck, but I'd compare it to investing in watching LOST (the TV show) only to find out that the show you thought was about a massive, diverse, multi-dimensional cast was really all about Jack Shepard and every other character was essentially merely a tool utilized by the writers to ensure that Jack's single-character epic journey was fulfilled.

And holy shit did I just ramble on incoherently there. Solid Snake Walls of Text are back in style.

This was pretty much my entire point, but much better

[Loyal]

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1926/trollclap.gif

[Fifthfiend]

I'm still holding out hope Vriska might turn out to somehow not be horrendously evil and whatnot, since I think she and John are pretty cute together.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4108/ted2.jpg

He's just so likeable and charming.

[POS Industries]

Snake, I pretty much see where you're coming from for the most part and agree with you to a certain degree, especially since I'm fearing that the deaths are going to fall into an unfortunate pattern of "pair up or die" to clean up any characters that don't fall nicely into pre-arranged romantic pairings, which is some bullshit-tier writing and I've come to expect better from this comic.

But I have to stop you here:

Gamzee and Eridan were once intriguing, well-developed and consistently portrayed characters who I was sincerely interested in. They've been since reduced into one-note, two-dimensional villains.

All that happened was that Gamzee and Eridan went from one-note, two-dimensional comic relief characters to one-note, two-dimensional villains, but I have found the shift to be entertaining nonetheless.

The SBaHJ gag during Kanaya's death was uncalled for, though, unless we really are getting vampire!Kanaya out of this somehow.

Also, just to sort of interject this here:
I'm still holding out hope Vriska might turn out to somehow not be horrendously evil and whatnot, since I think she and John are pretty cute together.
That is all.
HERESY.

[BitVyper]

I think Vriska's already not horrendously evil.

since I'm fearing that the deaths are going to fall into an unfortunate pattern of "pair up or die" to clean up any characters that don't fall nicely into pre-arranged romantic pairings

Vriska is really the only troll who does that right now. Terezi/Dave interferes with Terezi/Karkat, and Terezi/Karkat interferes with anything for Karkat at the moment. Sollux, and Aradia seem to have been Just Friends, but even if Aradia being alive again changes that, it will still be anything but neat when you account for Sollux's Matesprit dying, and add Equius into the equation. Kanaya was really the only one besides Vriska who could have had a tidy pair-up, so I don't see this happening.

Edit: Which isn't to say there won't be romances, or even that there won't be romances that work out with no real drama to interfere, but just because the characters who do survive pair off doesn't mean the others all died for that. It's just nature taking its course. Without turning it into The Are the Trolls of Our Lives, there's only so much that can be done in the relationship drama department.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

HERESY.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9854/02821.gif
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5904/blasphemy.gif

[POS Industries]

Vriska is really the only troll who does that right now. Terezi/Dave interferes with Terezi/Karkat, and Terezi/Karkat interferes with anything for Karkat at the moment. Sollux, and Aradia seem to have been Just Friends, but even if Aradia being alive again changes that, it will still be anything but neat when you account for Sollux's Matesprit dying, and add Equius into the equation. Kanaya was really the only one besides Vriska who could have had a tidy pair-up, so I don't see this happening.
You see how there's all these options going on here with complications and interferences and characters potentially being left out in the cold because the other two people in their respective love triangles ended up working out?

Characters dying purely to simplify these issues is specifically what I'm afraid of.

Edit: Which isn't to say there won't be romances, or even that there won't be romances that work out with no real drama to interfere, but just because the characters who do survive pair off doesn't mean the others all died for that. It's just nature taking its course. Without turning it into The Are the Trolls of Our Lives, there's only so much that can be done in the relationship drama department.
If you honestly believe that the trolls' story hasn't been Trolls of Our Lives, you haven't been reading this comic right.

[Kim]

Terezi dies.

Karkat x John forevs.

[Solid Snake]

Snake, I pretty much see where you're coming from for the most part and agree with you to a certain degree, especially since I'm fearing that the deaths are going to fall into an unfortunate pattern of "pair up or die" to clean up any characters that don't fall nicely into pre-arranged romantic pairings, which is some bullshit-tier writing and I've come to expect better from this comic.

...You're really tempting me to go on that hetero-normativity rant, but yeah, I do agree with your sinking suspicion that we're headed in either that direction or in an alternative "all the trolls die" direction, which would arguably be just as bad because we'd have wasted so much time in Hivebent with characters who'd ultimately only minimally influence the kids' journeys.


All that happened was that Gamzee and Eridan went from one-note, two-dimensional comic relief characters to one-note, two-dimensional villains, but I have found the shift to be entertaining nonetheless.

...With Gamzee? Sure (although I think he had a couple moments), but I'll actually go into the minority and say I felt Eridan was fairly well-developed and nuanced earlier, or at least apparently I interpreted him as such.

Oh, he was always a rather pathetic douchebag, but watching him struggle to be loved (or hated) didn't feel like a purely comedic exercise, and there were moments of dialogue (predominantly between him and Karkat and him and Kanaya) where I felt the presence of deeper nuances.

I won't actually bother with any research to validate my claims because it's really not worth arguing the merit of Eridan at the end of the day, particularly given who he's become, and I never really cared much for the character in the first place.

But perhaps the better way to phrase that sentence you objected to is that Eridan and Gamzee both had the potential buried deep within their one-note comedic relief presentations to become deeper and more meaningful characters, and by turning them instead into one-dimensional villains, Andrew has permanently nixed those opportunities and chose to go in a fundamentally different direction than one I'd prefer.

...On that note I'll briefly add that it's strange to read Andrew frequently defend his creative decisions on the grounds that Homestuck was always a zany, off-the-wall, anything-goes comedy of outrageous proportions, akin to Problem Sleuth.

Maybe that's what some people like about Homestuck? I always appreciated the pesterlogs and the memos far more: I enjoyed the dramatic nuances of character interaction and maturation far more than all the fourth-wall gags or the Sweet Bro shenanigans. That's why it worries me when Andrew tries to diffuse formspring questions by reminding everyone that it's "just a comedy." I suppose my feelings are somewhat akin to attending a theater to watch a Shakespearian tragedy and then hearing that the director intends his rendition of the work to be compared to a Ren and Stimpy episode.

EDIT: Not that Andrew deserves by any stretch of the imagination to actually be compared to Shakespeare (he's not nearly that good,) but I was just trying to be clever with the comparison.

[Fifthfiend]

HERESY.

Nope just wrong (and awful)

I think Vriska's already not horrendously evil.
^
|
|__|

[BitVyper]

Characters dying purely to simplify these issues is specifically what I'm afraid of.

You'd have to kill pretty much all the trolls except Vriska and either Karkat or Terezi (unless you kill Dave). At that point it's pretty much TPK for the trolls anyway.

Anyway, I don't think you can really count any of the deaths that have happened so far as having been for simplicity's sake (none of the dead trolls really stood to complicate anything), so I see no evidence that this will be true in the future. Of course, that won't stop it from being interpretted such. Which isn't a suggestion that YOU will, just sayin I'm sure someone will be around after Karkat's dramatic death to say that it only happened so that Terezi and Dave could hook up.

[POS Industries]

But perhaps the better way to phrase that sentence you objected to is that Eridan and Gamzee both had the potential buried deep within their one-note comedic relief presentations to become deeper and more meaningful characters, and by turning them instead into one-dimensional villains, Andrew has permanently nixed those opportunities and chose to go in a fundamentally different direction than one I'd prefer.
In all fairness, we haven't really seen enough of either characters turn at villainy to really say for sure that they are one-note or two-dimensional or whatever. I feel like they are developing, but that said developing doesn't necessarily have to involve them becoming better people.

[Fifthfiend]

You'd have to kill pretty much all the trolls except Vriska and either Karkat or Terezi (unless you kill Dave). At that point it's pretty much TPK for the trolls anyway.

Anyway, I don't think you can really count any of the deaths that have happened so far as having been for simplicity's sake (none of the dead trolls really stood to complicate anything), so I see no evidence that this will be true in the future. Of course, that won't stop it from being interpretted such. Which isn't a suggestion that YOU will, just sayin I'm sure someone will be around after Karkat's dramatic death to say that it only happened so that Terezi and Dave could hook up.

Nah man it's pretty simple.

All the trolls but Nepeta.

So she can update her shipping wall.

EDIT: You could actually keep hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Karkat / Terezi / Vriska / Equius / Nepeta / Aradia / Sollux / Gamzee

Sollux / Aradia / Nepeta / Terezi / Gamzee

Sollux / Aradia / Karkat / Gamzee

Sollux / Aradia / Vriska / Gamzee / Nepeta

and Equius instead of Sollux in each of the above

And wrap things up for a nice tidy complications-free shipping grid.

[Krylo]

Nepeta will never survive to the end.

[BitVyper]

Pretty much I just think that if we do get more character deaths, there will be many purposes for them, and that they'll be left largely open to interpretation. We still don't really know a lot of what's going on behind the scenes in terms of manipulations from the big players.

Nepeta will never survive to the end.

She's wearing such a big "kill me" sign that it could really go either way and still be shocking with her on the simple basis that it's too obvious.

[Solid Snake]

We still don't really know a lot of what's going on behind the scenes in terms of manipulations from the big players.

If it turns out that Vriska has been manipulating Eridan and/or Gamzee this whole time I swear I will walk to Andrew's house and punch him.

...Not that I seriously think that'd happen, but your sentence there did alert me to the possibility.

[BitVyper]

^
|
|__|

<<<< See avatar.

If it turns out that Vriska has been manipulating Eridan and/or Gamzee this whole time I swear I will walk to Andrew's house and punch him.

Vriska is not one of the big players. At this point, any unknowns with her are totally unknown to us. In the absence of further information, we know what she knows, what she wants, and what she has done to influence events. There's no suggestion that she's any more involved or aware than we already know her to be.

And really, she's pretty clever, but not actually all that great of a manipulator.

[POS Industries]

You'd have to kill pretty much all the trolls except Vriska and either Karkat or Terezi (unless you kill Dave). At that point it's pretty much TPK for the trolls anyway.
Sollux and Aradia is still pretty up in the air. Their relationship had a lot more background and development to it than either Sollux/Feferi or Aradiabot/Equius. And Vriska's absolutely going to die, because she's beyond the point of redemption, which brings us to...

Anyway, I don't think you can really count any of the deaths that have happened so far as having been for simplicity's sake (none of the dead trolls really stood to complicate anything
...Kanaya. Vriska's not going to survive this, and Kanaya's two romantic interests were her and Rose. There aren't going to be any cross-species couples because ew, so Rose and Kanaya just weren't going to happen, either. Kanaya can't be allowed to live and be the saddest lesbian because that's bullshit too, so killing her off to avoid the issue entirely is a quick, easy way to solve the problem.

Then you have Tavros that's not going to happen with anyone, so he has to die. Feferi's death paves the way for Sollux/Aradia getting back together, since it was never really clear how much of Aradia's relationship with Equius was based in the robot's programming and it was a pretty fucked up, abusive thing they had going anyway. Nepeta's desperately in love with Karkat and can't have him because of Terezi (Terezi/Dave isn't going to happen due to cross-species squick as well, by the way, fuck your heresy), and the cuts on Gamzee's face heavily suggest he encountered Nepeta, and that's probably not something that ended well for her. And if Nepeta went down, her lifelong protector Equius probably died shortly beforehand, which itself also neatly paves the way for Sollux/Aradia. Then Eridan and Gamzee go evil specifically so they can be killed off, because Eridan was FOREVER ALONE and Gamzee had spent the whole story too high to get into a relationship with anyone to begin with.

I'm not saying this will happen, I'm just really really worried that it will, because it's very likely all those characters are slated to be killed off anyway seeing where the plot is going at the moment.

[Fifthfiend]

<<<< See avatar.
wrong (and awful)

.

[BitVyper]

@ POS: That is all heavily speculative.

Edit: Like you're using speculation as evidence for other speculation.

[POS Industries]

@ POS: That is all heavily speculative.
People keep saying that to me in this thread and they keep getting proven wrong.

I'd wish you'd all start to put two and two together there but after this long I've given up all hope.

But once again:

I'm not saying this will happen, I'm just really really worried that it will, because it's very likely all those characters are slated to be killed off anyway seeing where the plot is going at the moment.

[Locke cole]

And heck, you can't even rely on a genocidal justification for Eridan's motivations because the first thing he kills is the one other sea-dweller present.


Really, I feel that the reason he killed Feferi was quite simple.

She denied him.

He offered her a chance to come with him and join Jack, an offer he only gave her because she was the only other sea-dweller, and she refused him. Attacked him, even, when he KO'd Sollux. At that moment, I do believe that he decided that he was done with her: if she was going to always refuse him like this, then he'd lost his patience with her for good.

As for Kanaya, I do believe that he was venting a lot of anger at the time, and Kanaya was the next person to attack him. I think the reason he didn't stay to kill Sollux or Karkat was because that wasn't his goal. He only came to the terminal to try and persuade Feferi to come with him, and then leave to find Jack. The Matriorb's destruction was simply something he added to his agenda, because it represented hope. After Feferi refused his offer, he really only cared about leaving, and anyone that stood in his way was an enemy.

[BitVyper]

People keep saying that to me in this thread and they keep getting proven wrong.

Er.... I'm not.... directly opposing a prediction. I'm saying that using "troll/human ships aren't going to happen" as evidence that deaths were for simplicity's sake is starting from a made up premise.

But once again

I guess I could post my initial response to that again, but infinite recursion gives me a headache, so I'll just say I can see this playing out a lot of ways, but I don't really see any reason for suspicion of Suddenly Shitty Writing.

[POS Industries]

Er.... I'm not.... directly opposing a prediction. I'm saying that using "troll/human ships aren't going to happen" as evidence that deaths were for simplicity's sake is starting from a made up premise.
I guess I'm assuming that because if it does:

I swear I will walk to Andrew's house and punch him.
I mean it'd be just such a contrived bullshit thing to put in. They don't even have compatible reproductive organs, so unless you consider a hot night of operating a paradox cloning machine to be the pinnacle of romance I really don't understand the appeal here.

EDIT: Which I guess is something that goes more into the heteronormative thing but if you want my actual plot justifications I guess it's more that I feel like every other potential pairing surrounding John, Rose, Dave, Jade, Karkat, and Terezi has had better buildup and chemistry than any of the possible ones involving either incest or cross-species involvement.

EDIT EDIT: Oh my god I do not want to be the guy discussing the potential sex lives of adolescents from two separate species but by "compatible" I just mean as far as actually being enjoyable to each other, not in terms of baby making. Because I don't know what the trolls have going on but what they've alluded to so far sounds absolutely terrifying and I'm sure they probably feel the same way about what us humans are packing.

[Solid Snake]

Wacky Tangents Incoming

Kanaya can't be allowed to live and be the saddest lesbian because that's bullshit too, so killing her off to avoid the issue entirely is a quick, easy way to solve the problem.

...Maybe I'm just an unrealistically huge Kanaya fan and that's biased my perspective or something, but I actually:
A) Assumed Rose was likely heterosexual and/or not interested in alien romance, and thus that ship wasn't going to sail, and;
B) Thought that a well-written storyline dealing with Rose rejecting Kanaya in an amicable and respectful fashion would actually have a profound positive impact on Kanaya, the storyline itself and even the LGBT readers and allies who strongly identified with her characterization.

An arbitrary division into dual possibilities of "lesbians in love, happily ever after" or "she has to die because she can't get her lesbians in love, happily ever after ending" seems ludicrous and offensive to the LGBT community and its allies, in my opinion.

The best stories that allude to the struggles of alternative-sexuality adolescents in society would inevitably touch upon the sheer statistical liklihood that their romantic interests wouldn't pan out into an idealistic "happily ever after" scenario. Assuming positive messages were reinforced to readers, the heterosexual recipient of unrequited affection would react positively (as I believe Rose was) to the interest even while declining the future opportunity of romance.

And, given the nature of troll sexuality, I suppose even a rejection from Rose wouldn't necessarily mean the end of all romantic options for Kanaya, although concededly I would have been a bit ticked if she pursued a male RedRom partner (but Kanaya and Karkat would've been the best moirails.)

Maybe I was giving Andrew too much credit as an author but I really thought, or perhaps hoped, he could pull it off. As is, it just feels rather hetero-normative to outright avoid the complications of the lesbian crush by killing off Kanaya and reducing the alternative-sexuality character to a minor status, while continuing the hetero-normative trend of leaving the major participants in heterosexual pairings intact (here's looking at you, Karkat and Terezi, and/or Karkat and Jade, and/or Dave and Jade, and/or Dave and Terezi.)

It's a virtual certainty that at least one heterosexual couple survives the onslaught, the only question is which pairing it'd be: whereas the "homosexual" characters in fiction are often either marginalized into smaller supporting roles so they don't "offend" or "intercede" on the hetero-normative expectations of a majority of viewers, "complicate" a happy ending with an unrequited crush...or, well, yeah.

Bottom line is it's rare for an alternative-sexuality character to have a leading role in a story unless his or her sexuality is like the main selling point of the story itself, in which case the work is largely being catered to the LGBT community itself and has only a minimal impact on perceptions or culture outside it (think Will and Grace.) Kanaya represented a refreshing change as she was a really fascinating, well-developed character who I adored and whose sexuality (if she even could identify as a "lesbian") was simultaneously a part of who she was but also not all-encompassing or exclusionary.

In that sense Andrew had a really phenomenal opportunity to develop Kanaya into a rare kind of character in modern fiction, the kind who could have a strong impact not just with LGBT readers but also with (former) conservatives and (ex)-homophobes (like me, circa, when was it, 2005?) who were rooting for her. I imagine readers who actually were conservatives or homophobes could have been touched by her story.

Sadly...Andrew decided to forfeit that chance. He sacrificed all that incredible effort he put into developing what was, at least subjectively speaking, my favorite Homestuck character.

...Now it's time for NonCon to start shouting at me for trying to pretend a heterosexual can talk about these issues.

EDIT: Really, I feel that the reason he killed Feferi was quite simple.

She denied him.

...You do realize that I essentially typed that exact reasoning as Eridan's justification for offing Feferi mere sentences after the ones you quoted there, right?
...Just sayin', I agree with you.

[Locke cole]

Flarglargl whoops.

[Fifthfiend]

WAY TO STRAIGHTSPLAIN ASSHOLE 2x outrage-appropriation combo!

[Solid Snake]

WAY TO STRAIGHTSPLAIN ASSHOLE

:(

[Locke cole]

STRAIGHTSPLAIN

:?

[Premmy]

:?
It is, apparently, like, the worstest thing evers!

[Art of Hilt]

...
So am I basically the only one who finds it a little suspicious that the one character that Kanaya happened to pursue is the same one whose main motivation for playing SBURB in the first place was to bring her cat back from the dead, and is also the one who is going to disappear from the kids' game session for the duration of the Reckoning towards a place heavily hinted to have troll ghosts floating around in it?
Not saying that Rose flies out to the Outer Ring on a rescue mission or anything. Just that her Green Sun plan seems kind of doomed to failure due to the giant paradox it'd cause, which suggests that she gets distracted by something.
A ghost something.
A ghost something that I'm at least hoping she cares about more than her cat.

[Premmy]

I think she(kanaya) can't see that point in the time line because she(Kanaya) dies... maybe? verification?

[Locke cole]

Why would the green sun mission be paradoxical if succeeded in?

[POS Industries]

I think she(kanaya) can't see that point in the time line because she(Kanaya) dies... maybe? verification?
She's able to see all the other kids past that point. If you'll recall, she spoke with future Jade just fine.

[Art of Hilt]

Why would the green sun mission be paradoxical if succeeded in?

i) The Green Sun exists outside the temporal spheres of every universe.
ii) It powers First Guardians.
iii) Killing the Green Sun would depower every First Guardian in existence.
-
Paradox Space breaks because every First Guardian ever got depowered retroactively, and most of those universes were only made due to First Guardian influences in the first place. It'd be like unwriting several existences.

I mean I don't see any other effect destroying the Green Sun would have. I doubt it's going to pick a point in every universe's timeline and say, "Okay that's when First Guardian powers get erased, every other point of time before that doesn't have to worry".

[POS Industries]

which suggests that she gets distracted by something.
A ghost something.
A ghost something that I'm at least hoping she cares about more than her cat.
Well, if Eridan doesn't somehow end up out there as well, someone's got to give her the motivation to make her way out of the Outer Ring to wreck his shit.

It's not like there's any other way for the surviving trolls to reach her after the blackout.

[Locke cole]

Did they say that destroying the green sun would depower all first guardians retroactively?

I mean, crazy time stuff could just lead to it happening years in the future (but not many) or something.

For one thing, would Doc Scratch help Rose with this if he didn't forsee it working?

[Art of Hilt]

Did they say that destroying the green sun would depower all first guardians retroactively?

I mean, crazy time stuff could just lead to it happening years in the future (but not many) or something.

Years in the future from whose perspective? The sun exists outside every universe's temporal sphere.

For one thing, would Doc Scratch help Rose with this if he didn't forsee it working?

Doc Scratch is a manipulator. Who knows what he wants.
But from I understand Rose claims that this specific plan in particular was mostly her idea (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004943). Doc Scratch was just a "source" of information. Even though Doc Scratch's suicidal tendencies suggest that he wants her to destroy the Green Sun, what if in actuality he's leading her towards something else, like the destruction of the Alternian universe (which, if a universe-destroying Tumor could destroy the First Guardians' power source, then I don't see why a universe-destroying anything-else wouldn't destroy First Guardians themselves).

[Flarecobra]

What suicidal tendencies?

[Locke cole]

Years in the future from whose perspective? The sun exists outside every universe's temporal sphere.


Which honestly only tells me "temporal shenanigans". Anything could happen, honestly.


Doc Scratch is a manipulator. Who knows what he wants.
But from I understand Rose claims that this specific plan in particular was mostly her idea (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004943). Doc Scratch was just a "source" of information. Even though Doc Scratch's suicidal tendencies suggest that he wants her to destroy the Green Sun, what if in actuality he's leading her towards something else, like the destruction of the Alternian universe (which, if a universe-destroying Tumor could destroy the First Guardians' power source, then I don't see why a universe-destroying anything-else wouldn't destroy First Guardians themselves).

Wouldn't that just cause Lord English to show up? Death of the universe and all.

In any case, Doc Scratch has the tools on his own to destroy the universe, if he saw fit. Not only is killing Snowman a possibility for that end, he's the one who gave Snowman her current load-bearing properties, so he could probably just destroy the universe himself.

I honestly don't think that he's leading Rose to destroy the Alternian universe. too complicated a deal for something he could just pull off himself.

[Art of Hilt]

What suicidal tendencies?

TT: I've been referring to him as an informant, when people ask.
TT: Which isn't often.
TG: what you mean a troll
TT: No.
TT: It's a man who exists in another universe.
TT: He wants to die.

.

e-
Wouldn't that just cause Lord English to show up? Death of the universe and all.

That's what made me think that'd be the case.

In any case, Doc Scratch has the tools on his own to destroy the universe, if he saw fit. Not only is killing Snowman a possibility for that end, he's the one who gave Snowman her current load-bearing properties, so he could probably just destroy the universe himself.

I honestly don't think that he's leading Rose to destroy the Alternian universe. too complicated a deal for something he could just pull off himself.

I can see your point.
But yeah, basically my point was that destroying the Green Sun isn't necessarily what he wants Rose to do.
Other than that I can only guess at though.


Mostly I just don't see Rose's plan working because she explained what she's going to do before she does it.
Those plans never work out, man.

[Kim]

Nepeta will never survive to the end.

http://oi51.tinypic.com/2whjl1y.jpg

[IHateMakingNames]

Doc Scratch has already finished his plan to summon Lord English. He's been explicitly stated to never lie, so there is no reason to assume anything he's done with Rose is part of his plan. There aren't any suicidal tendencies, but he doesn't care for living anymore now that he's finished his task.

[Kim]

He's been explicitly stated to never lie

That was a lie.

[Locke cole]

Doc Scratch has already finished his plan to summon Lord English. He's been explicitly stated to never lie, so there is no reason to assume anything he's done with Rose is part of his plan. There aren't any suicidal tendencies, but he doesn't care for living anymore now that he's finished his task.

...Look, buddy, the way I see it, if he wants to die, that's suicidal tendencies.

That was a lie.

Can of worms, etc. etc.

[Kim]

Can of worms, etc. etc.

I think you're taking me more seriously than I am.

[Locke cole]

I think you're taking me more seriously than I am.

Dude.

I literally just typed "etc. etc."

If I was taking that seriously, it'd probably instead involve a paragraph on why it'd be stupid for him to lie about lying.

Granted, it'd still probably involve at least one Bleach and Recess reference, but still.

[IHateMakingNames]

I took suicidal tendencies as meaning he has tried to kill himself.


Also, back on Vriska, I would have been fine with her being "redeemed" if it involved Tavros. I always assumed Tavros' happy ending would involve Vriska. Now that he's dead, fuck Vriska.

[Locke cole]

I took suicidal tendencies as meaning he has tried to kill himself.
Well, he's currently trying. He hasn't, say, taken a knife to himself because he knows he's invulnerable at the moment.


Also, back on Vriska, I would have been fine with her being "redeemed" if it involved Tavros. I always assumed Tavros' happy ending would involve Vriska. Now that he's dead, fuck Vriska.

And yeah.

[Kim]

I guess I just imagined taking me non-seriously as treating my response as though it were a reasonable thought.

[POS Industries]

Also, back on Vriska, I would have been fine with her being "redeemed" if it involved Tavros. I always assumed Tavros' happy ending would involve Vriska. Now that he's dead, fuck Vriska.

And yeah..
Yup. There were exactly two people through whom Vriska could have probably found redemption: Tavros and Kanaya. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A)

John comes in a distant third, but he just doesn't have the background with her for such a development to be really meaningful, in my opinion.

[synkr0nized]

So there I was thinking it would be silly to write anything significant in response to Kanaya's death in a mega-thread about a silly web comic thing on an Internet forum, and then Snake is back and doing it quite well.

Thanks for posting, Snake.

[Fifthfiend]

Vriska's absolutely going to die

TBH I think it's like 50/50 just because it'd be so irresistibly clever and smug to have her live

Well live or some really dreadful 'redemptive' death

[Kim]

SHE WAS A NOBLE SOUL ALL ALONG

[Fifthfiend]

Ha ha you THOUGHT Vriska was terrible just cause I had her cripple and then murder a helpless doofus BUT I FOOLED U

[Arcanum]

I feel the need to bring up this:

I'll say one last thing.
Though the magnitude of the ensuing destruction resulting directly from your actions will be neither possible or necessary for you to fathom, there nevertheless ought to be a silver lining.
The only question is whether you will live long enough to see it.
I'm not a gambling man.
But if I was, I wouldn't bet on it.
Goodbye.

In other words I'm with POS. Vriska is going to die.

edit-- Oh and I'm pretty sure he's not talking about Bec Noir (in regards to the aforementioned destruction), because of this (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004505) image, particularly where he says Bec Noir being in their session is none of his business.

[Fifthfiend]

That makes it even more irritatingly clever and smug if she lives (because Scratch ~never actually said~ she would die).

[POS Industries]

I mean, I enjoy Vriska's mustache-twirling villainy and all but if all this piling on of setup for her hubris-fueled demise ended with NOPE EVERYTHING TURNED OUT A-OK ALL ALONG we'd be back to

I swear I will walk to Andrew's house and punch him.

[Marc v4.0]

That makes it even more irritatingly clever and smug if she lives (because Scratch ~never actually said~ she would die).

~*andrewhussie*~

[Overcast]

Eridan always had the potential to become what he is right now. With a mixture of am unwarranted sense of self importance, pathetic romantic life, stubborn inflexibility, murderous tendency, frequent access to massive power. He had become something of the butt of every romantic joke that could occur in the comic, and while it may seem weird to you that doesn't have a positive effect on anyone. Especially not here at the end of the world. He in fact has not developed any more than he used to be, the only real difference is he is now stuck on a few new philosophies. Things like how he is the only one that can make things work out since he is the prince of hope, his absolute belief that nothing can stop him since the intervention of white science, and a subtle sort of thought that anyone who doesn't agree with him is going to die anyway.

Gamzee had no room for development whatsoever until we broke his religion. The thought being was he was not only functionally retarded, but he was also mentally inflexible always believing things will turn out for the better given enough time. With the death of his religion proper we took his inflexible mind and forced it to try to comprehend a world where everything he knew was wrong. This could only end up going one of two ways, either he would regress down into something normal or he was just going to snap. In this case the revelation, combined with the sudden removal of his drug habit was enough to break him and now he is out to do some terrible things.

I'm not saying that this wasn't done for the plot, but I am saying that it is perfectly normal for both characters if you think about it.

It is odd, the trolls doomed themselves the moment they won, because without the kids they never would have been forced to this point.

[Wigmund]

GG: a bunch of trolls are not nearly as bad as i thought
GG: even karkat! he has been helping me too... sort of, hehe
EB: he has? but i thought he "hated" you!
GG: oh yeah, he said plenty of stuff like that, but i dont think he ever actually meant it
GG: flying off the handle is part is of his charm in a funny way, once you know that about him

Jade<3Karkat :3

[Fifthfiend]

Like on the one hand I can see where Eridan is basically meant to be George Sodini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Collier_Township_shooting) but on the other hand IDK that the comic ever exactly set up the furious bitterness at his rejections that would have bridged the gap between those rejections and his killing spree, although possibly the whole goddamn Black Chemical Romance thing just makes that really hard to separate out.

[Krylo]

I think part of it is that the entire Troll culture is pretty toxic and full of killing and murder as par for the course. Like, they have giant armored monsters (who are apparently related to Gamzee) that roll around and murder the shit out of you if you don't 'get lucky' by a set age. They have a LARP-esque game where getting murdered/murdering isn't considered out of the ordinary. They let giant monsters that demand human sacrifice raise their young.

I think trying to look at Eridan through the lens of human society, where killing is pretty much only ever done on the fringes of society--or at least we do a good job of pretending that is so--when he's been raised in troll society, where the opposite is true, is probably where a lot of the disbelief over his particular murderous intentions comes from.

The other parts of troll society (like black romance, et. al.) probably don't help much, either.

[Arcanum]

Like, they have giant armored monsters (who are apparently related to Gamzee) that roll around and murder the shit out of you if you don't 'get lucky' by a set age.

You're talking about the Imperial Drones, which have nothing to do with the Subjugglators that Gamzee claims to be the last descendant of. Just pointing that out :)

[Specterbane]

EB: i even saw my own dead body in a cloud!
GG: what!!!!!

Oh, John. You are the King of nonchalance.

[Locke cole]

You cannot beat John in a nonchalance contest, he is simply etc.

And I think I was premature before.

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/03415.gif

this is the best thing.

[MuMu]

GG: im going to be a supportive piece of shit all day and fall down all this trust!
EB: how trustworthy do you even have to BE to CONFIDE in someone like that.

I love these moments where the kids are just adorable kids ^_^

[Krylo]

She found your dad, John.

John... there's something you need to hear. You... you might want to put down the car.

[Locke cole]

It turns out he's in the Land of Cake and Ice Cream and he didn't invite you!

[Krylo]

It turns out he's in the Land of Cake and Ice Cream and he didn't invite you!

Yes.

[Marc v4.0]

I'm not sure how much of a boner Jack would have for killing John's Dad.

I mean, he did destroy that fucking hat.

[Specterbane]

Destroying the hat bought John's Dad his freedom, not his safety. That's how I took it.

[Aldurin]

I'm not sure how much of a boner Jack would have for killing John's Dad.

I mean, he did destroy that fucking hat.

He might be nice enough to let them die last because of the whole hat thing.

[Fifthfiend]

If your magic superpowers don't allow you to turn a ford taurus into a flying ford taurus they are objectively shit magic superpowers p. sure we can all agree.

[Geminex]

Totally worth dying for.

beep beep

[BitVyper]

So Karkat's maiden conversation with John (from Karkat's perspective) takes place very shortly before the Scratch (from John's perspective), as he ended with "see you soon." John now knows that Karkat is in mortal danger, but in that conversation he didn't seem at all worried, nor did he seem relieved to hear from Karkat before he realised it was their "first" conversation. The general tone definitely didn't suggest any amount of sadness either, so I'm taking that to mean that there will be a point prior to the Scratch where the trolls are okay and not in immediate mortal peril (besides that posed by Jack's mere existence, of course).

[Aldurin]

CG: OH GOD THE HONKING
CG: WHY WON'T THE HONKING STOP

I want to see a troll do something now, this is too much suspense.

[Fifthfiend]

Karkat you adorable ball of love and feelings and total lack of self-awareness.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Something tells me if you were able to prove to Karkat that he was going to die in the future his only reaction would be:

CG: GOOD FUCK THAT BASTARD. I HOPE HE DIES PAINFULLY.

[Specterbane]

You're probably right, but we know he lives at least 6 hours and 12 minuets from when he gives his speech. from the end of this (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004529) memo. Which I think was after he woke up at 5:12 (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005080). So he should survive at least until the CRITICAL MOMENT.

After that he may be wishing FCG a painful death though.

[BitVyper]

Karkat you adorable ball of love and feelings and total lack of self-awareness.

His blood is red, but his heart is gold.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

You're probably right, but we know he lives at least 6 hours and 12 minuets from when he gives his speech. from the end of this (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004529) memo. Which I think was after he woke up at 5:12 (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005080). So he should survive at least until the CRITICAL MOMENT.

After that he may be wishing FCG a painful death though.

You know, speaking of: has he actually made the speech?
Like, reading through there was tons of references to it and whatnot but I never saw it. So with all the timetravel shenanigans I'm not sure whether I just somehow totally missed it or whether it hasn't happened yet.

[Specterbane]

It was the speech to get the pumped up to troll some human children. There've been lots of references to it, but it's never been shown. He gave it, I think, shortly after waking up from Prospit's destruction.

[Premmy]

I am pretty sure the Speech is some form of this trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleIncident)

[IHateMakingNames]

We never see the speech, but Terezi makes this memo (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004529) while it is going on. It has already happened a bit ago.

[katiuska]

If your magic superpowers don't allow you to turn a ford taurus into a flying ford taurus they are objectively shit magic superpowers p. sure we can all agree.

Admittedly, it still wouldn't make my Ford Taurus a not-shitty car (but now it flies).

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the speech was made shortly after he woke up.

[Flarecobra]

HONKNKNKNKnKnKnknknk......

Imagine the echoes in that place...

[synkr0nized]

Less floating car and hOnKs, more actual stuff and/or chat logs!

[Fifthfiend]

I wish he'd just kill whoever's gonna get fed into the meat grinder already and be done with it, I'm being suspensed to fucking sleep over here.

[Krylo]

Are those Sollux's teeth on the floor? I can't imagine he'll be happy about that when/if he wakes up.

[Aldurin]

Are those Sollux's teeth on the floor? I can't imagine he'll be happy about that when/if he wakes up.

Only if he figures out how to detect them while he's blind.

[Marc v4.0]

Only if he figures out how to detect them while he's blind.

facepalm.gif

[Bard The 5th LW]

Apparently Equius's teeth grow back, so he isn't in too much of a long term rut.

[POS Industries]

GC: honk.
Fuuuuuuuuuuck.

[Aldurin]

And the worst twist will be if this is a practical joke where Gamzee makes Karkat think he's a psycho murderer.

I mean he totally has Karkat by the balls with the whole honking thing.

[MuMu]

Aaaaaand he snapped. Next picture: Karkat using Sollux's unconcious body as a puppet.

[Fifthfiend]

I am just riveted

to my bed

for this suspenseful nap I am about to take

and by bed I actually mean under my desk

using this pile of file folders as a pillow

just looks so comfy down thurrr

[Loyal]

Hey, maybe with his teeth knocked out he'll be able to speak without a lisp.

[Geminex]

Hey, maybe with his teeth knocked out he'll be able to speak without a lisp.
you 2ay thii2 liike iit2 a good thiing

[Flarecobra]

I'd laugh if Terezi did that just to fuck with Karkat.

[Loyal]

Eh, I doubt it. She'd have to know about Gamzee's Rage in the first place. He hadn't told her about it, and she didn't react to the 'honk's during her investigation.

[stefan]

Eh, I doubt it. She'd have to know about Gamzee's Rage in the first place. He hadn't told her about it, and she didn't react to the 'honk's during her investigation.

but everyone knows about it, its just that until now they thought that karkles was just fucking with them in the memo.

[POS Industries]

but everyone knows about it, its just that until now they thought that karkles was just fucking with them in the memo.
Actually, they all still think that. Karkat's the only one Gamzee has talked to, so none of the other trolls is aware of what's happened.

Anyway, Terezi and Karkat live to respond to this memo in the past from the future (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004529), so she's not getting killed. Not to say that Gamzee isn't standing right behind her, wearing her glasses, and about to try to club the shit out of her, but he's not going to kill her.

[Specterbane]

That's true, but it would be absolutely hilariously terrifying if Gamzee started trolling Karkat from other peoples accounts with honks. After all he's probably saving him for last since Karkat's his best friend, that's why he told him after all.

[Dracorion]

CT: D --> honk.

[Intern Nin]

AC: :o33 < *HONK*

[POS Industries]

CT: D --> honk.
AC: :o33 < *HONK*
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/facepalm/webcamsmallfb1.gif

[MuMu]

STRONG backup.

Yes!

Equius: Be Plot Relevant

[Wigmund]

Actually, they all still think that. Karkat's the only one Gamzee has talked to, so none of the other trolls is aware of what's happened.

Anyway, Terezi and Karkat live to respond to this memo in the past from the future (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004529), so she's not getting killed. Not to say that Gamzee isn't standing right behind her, wearing her glasses, and about to try to club the shit out of her, but he's not going to kill her.

That memo's also post-countdown. For all we know, they could have been killed and the countdown's end (The miracle of a new beginning), is when they're resurrected in the kid's session.

[Archbio]

I believe in you, Equius.

Oh, who am I kidding, he's going to die in the next few pages isn't he?

This is one of those "halted cavalry charge" moments, I'm sure of it.

[Aldurin]

Gamzee is gonna totally turn Equis into a blue bloodstain.

[POS Industries]

I believe in you, Equius.

Oh, who am I kidding, he's going to die in the next few pages isn't he?

This is one of those "halted cavalry charge" moments, I'm sure of it.
I'll be shocked if he even makes to a few pages.

[Dracorion]

I got it!

Gamzee's Bard power is that he's the motherfucking Hulk.

[Flarecobra]

Anyone else just get reminded of the Alamo? Or the Charge of the Light Brigade?

[Fifthfiend]

Anyone else just get reminded of the Alamo? Or the Charge of the Light Brigade?

No need to beat a dead horse, Flare.

[Premmy]

Fuck you guys, Equius is too STRONG for this shit!
edit: who's to say he won't buck the trend of failed cavalries?

[POS Industries]

Now now, it was unfair of Karkat to saddle Equius with all this.

We can only hope something will spur him into action.

[Specterbane]

No need to beat a dead horse, Flare.

Fuck you guys, Equius is too STRONG for this shit!
edit: who's to say he won't buck the trend of failed cavalries?

Now now, it was unfair of Karkat to saddle Equius with all this.

We can only hope something will spur him into action.

Oh look, Equius takes a lead role and everyone is all about horses all of sudden. Just great, do Mr. Ed proud everyone.

[Premmy]

Well if He gallops in full steed ahead, at least Nepeta can reign him in.
edit: Specterbane -_-