Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[Pip Boy]

I think its less likely that the trolls are permabanned from talking about their feelings, and more likely that the author just wants to give them a bit more exposition just before their deaths to make those deaths more meaningful. If Vriska died as an annoying psychopathic bitch, nobody would care. If she dies as an annoying ex-pcyhopathic bitch that finally decided to embrace her more human-like feelings, then everyone will be like awwwwwwwww.

[Solid Snake]

...this was a lot easier when Vriska had no remotely redeeming qualities.

...Just to clarify: Having the author attempt to force remotely redeeming qualities down a character's throat is not quite the same as the character actually possessing remotely redeeming qualities.

[Pip Boy]

Nothing is being forced down Vriska's throat. She doesn't like killing people as much as she acted like she did. She's still a self-righteous bitch, its just that she isn't a sociopatic self-righteous bitch so much as a self-righteous bitch who feels the need to do bad things for the sake of social convention.

[Wigmund]

I just wonder how long it will be before we shift back to the "Oh this is supposed to be tense and scary" cliche...I mean clown.

[Geminex]

What Pip said. This doesn't feel forced. This is the first time we actually hear what Vriska is thinking, since the whole FLARP-maim-mentally-scar-mind-control-murder-main-triple-mind-control-main episode. So far, we've been judging by her actions. But what she's expressing right now perfectly fits the actions she took, expands on troll culture in a believable way, and, while not justifying what she did, does make her look way more three-dimensional than a simple BLUH BLUH HUGE BITCH.
This is the best update in quite a while, I think, and yes, I'm counting both the Flying Ford and Nepetabound.

[Dracorion]

EDIT: Although if Vamp!Kanaya decides to take a bite of Vriska in a seductive manner and make her life miserable, I guess I could settle for that, that wouldn't bother me much.

GA: Honk.
.

[Fifthfiend]

...this was a lot easier when Vriska had no remotely redeeming qualities.

She still doesn't. Indulging in self-pity after murdering a kid, while giving your current sycophant your line of rationalizations about how you physically and mentally abused him for years ~for his own good~ and crippled him to ~make him stronger~ isn't redeeming, it's extreme narcissism.

...The reason why Hussie has to go out of his way on formspring and in updates to defend Vriska so intently is largely because a reasonable number of readers have challenged him on writing her into his own personal beloved Mary Sue who gets away with anything due to her inherent plot-bending powers.
...If everyone loved Vriska as much as he did, his angry meta moment with his avatar "possessed by Vriska" while enjoying a Neverending Story moment probably never would have happened.

I'm not saying that many people don't dislike Vriska, just disagreeing with the "most" part of that statement; there seem to be at least as many people who identify with this character and/or sympathize with her sociopathic, self-serving nature.

Midway through this conversation Eridan will shoot Vriska in the back with his science wand, instantly killing her, then a Nic Cage x Vriska montage will play as John mourns her death.

If this ever happened it would be the first in this string of deaths that legitimately surprised and impressed me, but really, there is no way this will happen.

[Locke cole]

I'm not saying I forgive the things Vriska's done.

...I'm actually not quite sure what I think about this, but it's definitely not that.

[Krylo]

Homestuck, the internet's best measure of people's ability to empathize with narcissistic sociopaths.

She ~feels bad~ a bloo bloo bloo bloo bloo

These two things are mutually exclusive. The entire point of being a sociopath is that you don't feel bad about hurting/killing other people.

She was never a sociopath, she was never even painted as a sociopath.


FURTHER: Terezi already spelled out this entire update ages ago when talking to... Kanaya? Karkat maybe? Regardless, I think it was around the time she was trying to make Tavros use stairs until Kanaya hollared at her.

Every time Vriska does something horrible she regrets it and does what she can to absolve herself of guilt. When she blinded Terezi? She felt that she could be absolved of guilt when Terezi preferred being blind anyway because of the closer connection it gave her to her dragon lusus vis a vis learning to smell things. When she crippled Tavros? She spent the rest of their relationship trying to force him to overcome his disability so that she could feel like she hadn't actually hurt him. When she killed Aradia? She convinced Equius to build her a new robot body (whom they both planned to give to her/backstab each other) because once Aradia had a new body she could feel she hadn't actually damaged Aradia.

That you seem entirely incapable of actually understanding the character and, instead of hating her because of what is ACTUALLY broken about her (of which there is a lot), call her a sociopathic irredeemable monster, doesn't make you in some way more sensible or more moral than those of us who are capable of simple reading comprehension.

Vriska has always been extremely repentant over her crimes, but has never had any idea how to adequately express it between troll society and her own, even more heartless, upbringing.

It's not like this troll society stuff is new either. We've known that murder and killing was totally cool with trolls since forever. Through everything from Terezi's mock trials--execution is the go to penalty for basically every crime and executing the wrong troll was no more than a minor embarrassment to the establishment, straight up through the breeding process that involves the murder of teenage trolls that haven't copulated, and into their adulthood which is spent entirely out in space killing the shit out of other species. Even their relationships are based entirely on hate and pity. There are no, socially accepted, positive emotions.

Everything in this update has been explained, in detail, through the story. If anything I'm just finding myself annoyed that it's just now that a majority of people are beginning to realize that Vriska isn't just 'lawlmurder', and that troll society doesn't treat violence the same way we do.

But, shit, I don't know why I bother. You'll just call me horrible for empathizing with Vriska, and then I'll get pissed and go back to doing my best to ignore all the random pointless bitching about every single thing that happens in the story for another hundred posts or so.

Edit: She still doesn't. Indulging in self-pity after murdering a kid, while giving your current sycophant your line of rationalizations about how you physically and mentally abused him for years ~for his own good~ and crippled him to ~make him stronger~ isn't redeeming, it's extreme narcissism.
P.S. She was trying to kill him when she crippled him. The abuse after was her attempting to, in her fucked up way, get him to overcome the crippling because she felt bad about it. There's a salient argument, with how troll romance goes, that the feeling bad about what she did to him is the whole reason she ever tried to kiss him (Pity = RedRom, not love.)

[Fifthfiend]

These two things are mutually exclusive.

Not actually at all, no.

Every time Vriska does something horrible she regrets it and does what she can to absolve herself of guilt.

Yes, it's called the abusive cycle.

That you seem entirely incapable of actually understanding the character and, instead of hating her because of what is ACTUALLY broken about her (of which there is a lot), call her a sociopathic irredeemable monster, doesn't make you in some way more sensible or more moral than those of us who are capable of simple reading comprehension.


Insults about reading comprehension might carry more weight if you showed any actual understanding about this topic or what I've said about it.

But, shit, I don't know why I bother. You'll just call me horrible for empathizing with Vriska, and then I'll get pissed and go back to doing my best to ignore all the random pointless bitching about every single thing that happens in the story for another hundred posts or so.

Oh Krylo feels bad, a bloo bloo bloo

[Krylo]

Not actually at all, no.Sociopathy/psychopathy are marked by a lack of empathy and an inability to tell wrong from right. As a result, a true sociopath is entirely unrepentant of any crimes.

L2Psychology.

She's got shit wrong with her, but it's not sociopathy.



Yes, it's called the abusive cycle.She was abused so now she abuses. Yes. However, abusers are not irredeemable, and are generally not sociopaths.



Insults about reading comprehension might carry more weight if you showed any actual understanding about this topic or what I've said about it.Oh Krylo feels bad, a bloo bloo blooI don't know. I called that shit pretty good.

And I understand the character and story waaaay better than you.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Yes, it's called the abusive cycle.

Sociopaths don't enter into abusive cycles, what with not feeling guilt or empathy in the first place.

[Fifthfiend]

Sociopathy/psychopathy are marked by a lack of empathy and an inability to tell wrong from right. As a result, a true sociopath is entirely unrepentant of any crimes.

Which is great if you interpret Vriska's actions as having anything to do with empathy, which they don't.

[Krylo]

Which is great if you interpret Vriska's actions as having anything to do with empathy, which they don't.

Except they do, unless you want to disagree with Terezi about what drives Vriska.

The character with the best grasp of troll psychology.

The character with supernatural psychology powers as seer of the mind.

AND the character who was Vriska's best friend for years.

[Specterbane]

Krylo, thank you. All of that needed to be said so very badly. But yeah, if people are intent on hating Vriska that's not going to stop them. If anything I think it shows that most of the trolls are pitiable by our standards, but some people just don't want to do that I guess.

EDIT: I step away for a few minuets while writing that and wow does a lot happen.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Which is great if you interpret Vriska's actions as having anything to do with empathy, which they don't.

You just said she's entering into abusive cycles with her friends, something a sociopath wouldn't do.
Or to clarify, a human sociopath may enter into a faux abusive cycle in an attempt to absolve themselves of guilt in the public eye. After all if they're seen as apologetic, they're less likely to be in trouble. But Vriska doesn't need to do that at all. In fact, from what we know the exact opposite is true. She not only doesn't need to feel guilt by troll standards, but she's outright strange because she is.

Also, it might just be me but I see her mocking Karkat for his untroll-like behavior as trying to convince herself that even if she's not a good troll for feeling guilt, there's worse examples.

[Fifthfiend]

Except they do, unless you want to disagree with Terezi about what drives Vriska.

The character with the best grasp of troll psychology.

The character with supernatural psychology powers as seer of the mind.

AND the character who was Vriska's best friend for years.

Yes Krylo I am clearly obligated to agree with one fictional character's views of another fictional character based on that fictional character's fictional credentials.

I mean Hermione says right there on the page that Harry Potter is the best and most excellent of wizards.

[Fifthfiend]

Or to clarify, a human sociopath may enter into a faux abusive cycle in an attempt to absolve themselves of guilt in the public eye. After all if they're seen as apologetic, they're less likely to be in trouble. But Vriska doesn't need to do that at all. In fact, from what we know the exact opposite is true. She not only doesn't need to feel guilt by troll standards, but she's outright strange because she is.

In some general sense of "troll society" maybe but it's clear that within Vriska's social circle - which at this point comprises the entirety of her remaining race - her actions are clearly judged as negatively by those around her and her apologetics absolutely function as an attempt to get back into the good graces of / exert control over those same people.

[Archbio]

You know, I don't have any specific hate on for Vriska, but while I haven't been able to read the updates that you're all commenting on yet (the site seems to be down for me,) but basically all of the points by which Vriska is being defended (coming on top of the Gamzee autopilot killing spree) really just throw into sharp relief why I hate all of the trolls.

And I don't mean hating them in story, but rather hating the way they're written.

For me, they just don't work as characters in the end.

Equius dying in a way that was set up exactly by the very first thing we read about him is justified by being a "joke character?" They're all joke characters! The trolls in general not having character development is justified because "not working emotionally through the game" is the theme of their part of the story? Then why spend I don't know how many pages writing about their sorry asses?

Vriska's grotesque way of absolving herself of guilt by just being evil again is one step up from "troll society" because guilt is alien to them? How aliens have the trolls been written, really? And what's with the mass of (onscreen) non-murderous troll that are now serving as (literal) fodder to the star murderers? Why are any of them surprised/horrified at murders if this is a troll thing?

And on the finer points of socipathy/guilt: the capacity to feel guilt doesn't redeem a character automatically. In effect, Vriska has been using her guilt to feel better and the end result is more suffering she dishes out. Fifthfiend is using "socipath" in an unjudicious way; the problem is characters who are sociopaths are more pitiable than this.

I could go on and on and on witing this unreadable rant, but the point is this: I won't bother with the update when the site is back up. I'm not ragequitting the thread, and I don't mean to make it sound as though people's comments about the comic is what ruined it for me or anything like that: it's a big cluster of things in Homestuck itself that's been niggling at me for a while, and I just can't enjoy it anymore.

I mean Hermione says right there on the page that Harry Potter is the best and most excellent of wizards.

Well, he is.

Wizard does mean "angry teen," right?

[Fifthfiend]

Fifthfiend is using "socipath" in an unjudicious way

Whoa what the fuck sycophants don't get to start disagreeing all over the place

What in the hell did I hire you for

Wizard does mean "angry teen," right?

I liked Harry so much more after he finally got pissed off at Dumbledore for being a jackass.

[Archbio]

Your last check bounced.

[Krylo]

Yes Krylo I am clearly obligated to agree with one fictional character's views of another fictional character based on that fictional character's fictional credentials.

I mean Hermione says right there on the page that Harry Potter is the best and most excellent of wizards.

There's really nothing to say here except that you've effectively failed reading comprehension 101.

When an author introduces a character as an expert of a certain thing, goes on to put them in a position to be MORE RIGHT about a specific facet of that certain thing, goes on further to give them supernatural powers enabling them to be right about that thing, and then has them tell you something straight up about that thing, that's a narrative device.

It's a way for the author to tell us something without the author literally writing a footnote on the bottom of the page.

When they then go ahead and back up what that character said with more evidence from other characters, we can be pretty certain that the author is telling us this thing.

Unless you want to go all death of the author on this, you are wrong.

Completely, irrevocably, and unquestionably wrong. There is no middle ground here. There is no gray area.

Hussie has gone out of his way with Terezi, with Vriska, with Vriska's actual actions, to show that she is broken in this specific manner. Hell, I'm pretty sure he's even said it in his formspring.

If you disagree with the author on what drives a character, then you are, simply, wrong.

[Loyal]

Equius dying in a way that was set up exactly by the very first thing we read about him is justified by being a "joke character?" They're all joke characters! The trolls in general not having character development is justified because "not working emotionally through the game" is the theme of their part of the story? Then why spend I don't know how many pages writing about their sorry asses?

Vriska's grotesque way of absolving herself of guilt by just being evil again is one step up from "troll society" because guilt is alien to them? How aliens have the trolls been written, really? And what's with the mass of (onscreen) non-murderous troll that are now serving as (literal) fodder to the star murderers? Why are any of them surprised/horrified at murders if this is a troll thing?Yeah, the matter of troll society is one of the things that bug me most persistently. Between the casual murder, morbidly high casualty rate for the flimsiest of reasons, and the trolls being in a constant state of war with everything, I have difficulty buying the idea that the troll society, as written, would accomplish anything but an exceptionally bloody and self-destructive end if they actually did function as written. At best, they sure as hell wouldn't be able to advance to the level of space-faring planet-raiders.

[Art of Hilt]

You know, I don't have any specific hate on for Vriska, but while I haven't been able to read the updates that you're all commenting on yet (the site seems to be down for me,)

It's down for everyone while Hussie is switching hosts.
Someone managed to save the update and the pesterlogs in image form before the site went down... somehow. No idea how. But. Yeah.

Here you go until the site comes back up:

One (http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5025/nu1l.png)
Two (http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8797/nu2.png)
Three (http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6082/nu3.png)
Four/Final update (http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5971/nu4.png)

e- rereading the updates it's clear that john is some kind of fucking priest
just look at the reception going on over there jesus fuck

[Fifthfiend]

There's really nothing to say here except that you've effectively failed reading comprehension 101.

When an author introduces a character as an expert of a certain thing, goes on to put them in a position to be MORE RIGHT about a specific facet of that certain thing, goes on further to give them supernatural powers enabling them to be right about that thing, and then has them tell you something straight up about that thing, that's a narrative device.

It's a way for the author to tell us something without the author literally writing a footnote on the bottom of the page.

When they then go ahead and back up what that character said with more evidence from other characters, we can be pretty certain that the author is telling us this thing.

Unless you want to go all death of the author on this, you are wrong.

Completely, irrevocably, and unquestionably wrong. There is no middle ground here. There is no gray area.

Hussie has gone out of his way with Terezi, with Vriska, with Vriska's actual actions, to show that she is broken in this specific manner. Hell, I'm pretty sure he's even said it in his formspring.

If you disagree with the author on what drives a character, then you are, simply, wrong.

Yes Krylo I do in fact disagree with the author that his interpretation of this character's actions and motivations fits how he has portrayed them, congratulations on finally understanding what I have been saying this entire time.

If you're going to now maintain that this is inherently wrong and that there is no possible interpretation of characters in a story besides that of the author then have fun being ridiculous I guess.

[Specterbane]

Yes Krylo I do in fact disagree with the author that his interpretation of this character's actions and motivations fits how he has portrayed them, congratulations on finally understanding what I have been saying this entire time.

If you're going to now maintain that this is inherently wrong and that there is no possible interpretation of characters in a story besides that of the author then have fun being ridiculous I guess.

Are you trying to say that characters have a life of their own beyond the compression of the one who created them and manages their actions?

[Krylo]

Yes Krylo I do in fact disagree with the author that his interpretation of this character's actions and motivations fits how he has portrayed them, congratulations on finally understanding what I have been saying this entire time.

If you're going to now maintain that this is inherently wrong and that there is no possible interpretation of characters in a story besides that of the author then have fun being ridiculous I guess.

Are you trying to say that characters have a life of their own beyond the compression of the one who created them and manages their actions?

Basically this.

You can say that the author has poorly written their character to underscore their motivations, but fictional characters are, hey, fictional. They don't have any motivations that the author doesn't put into them.

You're arguing not that she is sociopathic, but that Hussie is a poor character writer, which, welp. Whatever, man. Just stop saying stupid things, then.

OR you somehow believe that fictional characters are living breathing beings that exist in their own special dimension of magic and trolls or something. In which case... well. Have fun being insane, I guess.

[Kim]

Vriska isn't sociopathic, because sociopathy is a specific kind of mental disorder, though many like to equate basically being an awful person with sociopathy. However, I'm kinda meh about Vriska's "humanization" during this bit, and I've never really liked her Aizen moments either. Vriska is at her most enjoyable, for me, when she's stabbing Tavros after the whole "gonna get yer legs" gesture, or stuff like that. Stuff that I can laugh at because it's awful.

I'm concerned that Hussie's basically rolling like Kojima with Vriska right now, characterizing her more in depth so that it'll be SO SAD when she dies, which I fully expect to happen in the near future. We'll see.

[Geminex]

Guys, when you're arguing about Vriska then HUSSIE HAS WON.

To be a bit ~bothsidez~-ey, I agree with Krylo that the picture we now have of Vriska fits pretty well. I guess you could say that the development was clumsily done, what with taking place in just one 3-panel chat, but it's not the first time Homestuck has done that, so I think it works.

On the other hand, eh. Fictional character, I really don't mind how Fifth interprets her, or how he receives the development Hussie's been doing/shoving down her throat.

I do think we should not be arguing about fictional internet trolls.

[Loyal]

Are you trying to say that characters have a life of their own beyond the compression of the one who created them and manages their actions?

I believe he's saying that the way an author intends for something to develop isn't necessarily the way that development will actually happen, or more specifically how it will come across to the readers.

It's hardly a new phenomenon. Take FFTA, for instance. Who're we supposed to be rooting for again?

Also, characters (well-written ones anyway) totally should have a "life of their own," in that they react to the setting they're in rather than what the author says they should be doing.

Guys, when you're arguing about Vriska then HUSSIE HAS WON.Don't. Just. Don't.

[Arcanum]

I do think we should not be arguing about fictional internet trolls.

But then what would we argue about?! We have to have something to argue about, otherwise we would need to agree with each other :ohdear:. And frankly I just don't see that being very fun at all.

[Krylo]

I believe he's saying that the way an author intends for something to develop isn't necessarily the way that development will actually happen That's not how writing works.

or more specifically how it will come across to the readers.

It's hardly a new phenomenon. Take FFTA, for instance. Who're we supposed to be rooting for again?However, that's a difference in what one finds justifiable. No one goes on to accuse the doucher of being a psychopath, or doing what he does because he's just narcissistic or whatever.

At least no one who actually spends the time paying attention to the story line.

The difference of opinion comes with whether escaping to their fantasy dream world is terrible or not. He thinks it is and believes he's doing the right thing for all of his friends by pulling them back into the real world. No one who has even the vaguest understanding of the story or the character is going to argue otherwise.

The argument is that he's wrong and it was actually a totally terrible thing for them to do. Which is fine, because you aren't rewriting a character, you're simply disagreeing with the conclusions that character came to from their motivations.

FOR INSTANCE: Vriska is wrong about how pushing Tavros to go up a bunch of stairs will make him stronger if he succeeds. She's wrong that it would absolve her guilt in crippling him in the first place. She's wrong that Terezi being able to smell things makes it ok that she blinded her.

However, her motivations are what they are, regardless of whether we as readers agree with the outcomes.

There may be some kind of argument if Hussie hadn't used a reliable narrator character to explain what Vriska's dysfunction was, or if her dysfunction didn't fit with what she did. However, neither of these are true.

Thus, her motivations are what they are. It's up to us to interpret whether her motivations make her actions worse, or better, or whether she's a pitiable or hatable or just amusing character.

That's where the difference lies here, and why Fifth is just wrong about Vriska, not having a different interpretation that is totally equally valid as everyone else's.

HE'S FURTHER wrong because he's been nothing but a total douchebag about how he PRESENTS that interpretation that is not actually justified in the story at all, with comments like: Homestuck, the internet's best measure of people's ability to empathize with narcissistic sociopaths.

All over the goddamn place.

I'd be willing to let him keep on being wrong and pat him on the head and say "Yes, Fifthy, your interpretations are equally valid as the author's even though they are considerably weaker from the standpoint of the story placed forth than these other interpretations that the author has done everything he can to beat us over the head with," IF he wasn't such a goddamned asshole about it, or even if he didn't bring it up at EVERY POSSIBLE GODDAMNED OPPORTUNITY.

Because at the end of the day, if Hussie HADN'T gone out of the way to beat us over the head with what, exactly, is wrong with Vriska it would be a matter of opinion, and hey, Fifth's shit still stinks like everyone else's. And, frankly? I'm tired of having it rubbed all over my face every time I look in this thread.

Also, characters (well-written ones anyway) totally should have a "life of their own," in that they react to the setting they're in rather than what the author says they should be doing.The author is still giving them that 'life of their own' and their motivations. They aren't living beings that have lives outside of the author's mind.

[IHateMakingNames]

The issue with Vriska is that it seems we're supposed to redeem her because she isn't evil, it's that Troll society is evil (Or to justify her actions). The problem is, up until recently, she's been the only troll who acts that way. From 11/12 examples we've been given, Trolls are just dicks at worst. There were even more kind Trolls than dickish Trolls.

[Kim]

Very true. The worst aspects of troll society have all been relayed via telling, instead of showing, largely due to the nature of the troll arc, and the tone of the story, so if anything that's one of Hussie's biggest faults with the troll characters.

That and there being too many of them for how much time has been dedicated to them. This is something worth going further into, but I'll do it later.

[Krylo]

Very true. The worst aspects of troll society have all been relayed via telling, instead of showing, largely due to the nature of the troll arc, and the tone of the story, so if anything that's one of Hussie's biggest faults with the troll characters.

That and there being too many of them for how much time has been dedicated to them. This is something worth going further into, but I'll do it later.

Yeah, the Karkat was just such a good leader thing was kinda a terrible last second patch job on it.

And, I'm not in any way arguing that Vriska isn't a huge bitch or is for totally sure not evil. What I AM saying is that she has empathy, and she's not a one dimensional comic book villain.

I mean, I don't think this redeems her. I think it's supposed to make it more clear to the readers how Vriska thinks and set her up for her eventual possible redemption (or she may never redeem herself). WHICH is part of the reason I think Nonsie is wrong about her death (the other part being the general 'importance' of the characters who have been killed so far, with the only real important fatality getting back up and joining the ranks of the undead, and the just general ridiculousness of the only god tier being ganked by some murderer).

[Solid Snake]

...Aww man, I missed a Vriska debate!

That's too bad, as I have a slightly different twist on Vriska.

It's not her villainy that makes me despise her. Well-written villains are fun characters to "love to hate," and if Vriska was just a complete monster I'd probably just enjoy hating on her and praying for her destruction.

It's all the shit she gets away with that pisses me off. It's like, here's a character who happens to be a completely dislikable jerk, and she's also the very TV Tropes definition of a Mary Sue, and she's wielding some form of indestructible plot armor, and she's single-handedly responsible for about eighty to ninety percent of Homestuck's plot, and Hussie wants us to pity her and empathize with her and has been extraordinarily over-defensive of her, to the point that it's clear that the author is advancing some sort of agenda with her every time she pops up in the story.

Really I think it was somewhat disappointing to read through Andrew's formspring as I prefer it when authors view their characters about equally and allow the characters to write themselves. But then you read how much contempt Andrew has for trolls like Equius (and his fans) while he's fucking parading Vriska around on the S.S. "She is fucking amazing, don't you just love her?" She cripples and tortures a kid who's clearly mentally challenged by troll standards and then Hussie expects us to identify with her?
That'd be like having Eridan killing his girlfriend because she rejected him and then Hussie trying to say "Oh man, feel the depths of Eridan's pain guys, isn't he just such an awesome character? Also, everything he touches turns to gold and everything that happened is because of him." Fortunately Andrew played that situation right and at least correctly identified Eridan's actions as actually douchey. The alternative would be, I dunno, some ludicrous anti-feminist message about how Feferi totally deserved to get axed because how dare she shoot him down or some shit.

...But really I'm just bitter because, despite all your speculation to the effect that "Vriska is going to die," I know for a fact that she will almost certainly not die. Andrew simply likes her too much, and his self-professed adoration for everything she does colors his script, which is the most disappointing thing about Vriska in Homestuck, more disappointing than Vriska's actual characterization by far.

And if she does, by some wacky esoteric fluke, happen to perish? Andrew will be sure to give her the most glorified death imaginable, the same kind of over-the-top dramatic sendoff that Tavros, Feferi, Kanaya, Equius, Nepeta and others will not receive. Because she's special. And apparently, despite crippling a kid and killing two trolls, we're clearly supposed to like Vriska, and her dialogue with John is intentionally manipulative by the author to try to force us to like her.

So no, I'm not against villainous characters, bullies, overpowered jerks, or sociopaths in fiction. I am against authors who show brazen favoritism in their work and let their own subjective preferences color actual plot developments to such an extent that other characters do not react realistically around her. Great authors create complex, multifaceted characters with strengths and weaknesses, but do not bend the very "rules of reality" to ensure that character has an uneven playing field.

Vriska isn't designed to be complicated or intriguing, she's designed to be the Ultimate Canon Sue. A tragic past? Check. Hopelessly "misunderstood?" Check. Absolved of her horrific misdeeds, while other characters who commit the exact same kinds of misdeeds are vilified and despised? Check. Unrealistically superior to everyone around her, and wielding unfathomable abilities? Check. Seemingly incapable of doing anything wrong? Check. Responsible for nearly everything that happens? Check. Given some ludicrous "character flaw" that really isn't a flaw at all, insofar as its only purpose is to ensure greater reader identification with her plight because it's just ssssooo tough to be a rejected by the guy you crippled and tormented? Check. Written in a painstakingly deliberate manner to maximize sympathy towards her, so that readers just might mistakenly applaud her in the end for "redeeming herself" through some uncharacteristic sacrifice or a love with John or some other bullshit? Fucking check.

I'm reasonably certain that's just about 90% of my least favorite traits and qualities in fictional characters right there, and it all sums Vriska perfectly.

...I'm not saying you're a terrible person for liking Vriska. Let's not go there. There's no need to. Liking or disliking a character is inherently subjective. My intent in this lengthy diatribe isn't to try to convince anyone.

I'm only saying that there are, in fact, objectively identifiable reasons to dislike Vriska, just like there are identifiable reasons to dislike any Homestuck character. That's what aggravates me about so many of the folks who defend Vriska with such passion on the MSPA forums. I don't mind them defending Vriska, or advancing objective arguments in her favor, which is akin to what many of you have done here. I do dislike the kind of subtext found in Krylo's comments to Fifth, though, that kind of holier than thou "you hate a character I like and have dared to sully this message board with your opinion, so allow me to pull some ad hominem out of my ass and insult your reading comprehension skills because you just don't get it." That's just stupid. Andrew isn't immune from criticism just because he's created a storyline or a character that you adore, and there's clearly criticisms to be made regarding his handling of Vriska, which you can choose to respectfully agree or disagree with, but which you should not prevent folks from making and debating.

[Krylo]

So you hate her because she is a thirteen year old girl version of David Xanatos?

[Bard The 5th LW]

It's all the shit she gets away with that pisses me off. It's like, here's a character who happens to be a completely dislikable jerk, and she's also the very TV Tropes definition of a Mary Sue, and she's wielding some form of indestructible plot armor, and she's single-handedly responsible for about eighty to ninety percent of Homestuck's plot, and Hussie wants us to pity her and empathize with her and has been extraordinarily over-defensive of her, to the point that it's clear that the author is advancing some sort of agenda with her every time she pops up in the story.

This is the point. He intentionally made her to be a divisive character. The fact that there is any debate about her is what Hussie wanted, he has even said so. These Mary Sue traits were also intentional.

He never really said he personally adores or supports what Virska does at all, she's is sort of meant to seem that way though at quite a few times.

edit: Also, the trolls will die. Sollux already predicted it long ago, so unless dreamselves/revivals count, then Vriska is going down.

[Solid Snake]

This is the point. He intentionally made her to be a divisive character. The fact that there is any debate about her is what Hussie wanted, he has even said so. These Mary Sue traits were also intentional.

...But why would Andrew Hussie intentionally want to create a bad character?

Because that's what you're really saying, there. Deliberately creating a Mary Sue isn't deliberately creating a character that's divisive, it's deliberately creating a character that is poorly written.

[Krylo]

P.S.I'm only saying that there are, in fact, objectively identifiable reasons to dislike Vriska, just like there are identifiable reasons to dislike any Homestuck character. That's what aggravates me about so many of the folks who defend Vriska with such passion on the MSPA forums. I don't mind them defending Vriska, or advancing objective arguments in her favor, which is akin to what many of you have done here. I do dislike the kind of subtext found in Krylo's comments to Fifth, though, that kind of holier than thou "you hate a character I like and have dared to sully this message board with your opinion, so allow me to pull some ad hominem out of my ass and insult your reading comprehension skills because you just don't get it." That's just stupid. Andrew isn't immune from criticism just because he's created a storyline or a character that you adore, and there's clearly criticisms to be made regarding his handling of Vriska, which you can choose to respectfully agree or disagree with, but which you should not prevent folks from making and debating.

Like I said above, I wouldn't bother with the ad hominem, or even anything at all, if Fifth would stop being a dick about it and mentioning it every time Vriska does anything ever... or even when she's not done anything at all but someone mentions her name in the thread.

Edit: I mean, shit, do you see me leaping down Arch's throat for saying she's annoying, or yours for this whole big thing?

No. Because I don't care. I don't care if no one else likes her in the world. I find her amusing, and I don't generally care about fictional characters enough to defend them.

What I CARE about is Fifth's constant thread shitting.

[Locke cole]

This is the point. He intentionally made her to be a divisive character. The fact that there is any debate about her is what Hussie wanted, he has even said so. These Mary Sue traits were also intentional.

He never really said he personally adores or supports what Virska does at all, she's is sort of meant to seem that way though at quite a few times.

edit: Also, the trolls will die. Sollux already predicted it long ago, so unless dreamselves/revivals count, then Vriska is going down.

The problem would be if he ran with that to the detriment of the rest of the story.

Has it gotten to that point?

Damned if I know.

[Bard The 5th LW]

...But why would Andrew Hussie intentionally want to create a bad character?

Because that's what you're really saying, there. Deliberately creating a Mary Sue isn't deliberately creating a character that's divisive, it's deliberately creating a character that is poorly written.

We're arguing about her, right? There are several sides to several arguments about her, right?

And honestly, the story doesn't paint her as totally justified and sympathetic in everything she does. Her arm and eye got blown off because she deserved it. She was haunted by ghosts because she deserved it. Aradia beat the shit out of her because she deserved it. She bled to death slowly because she deserved it. That is admittedly a bit mute after she went all got tier, but its not like there was no karmic payback. There is definitely some sympathy, but I would say that it isn't her overriding characteristic, its just what happens to be in focus for her at the moment.

Her introduction even began with calling her a bitch.

[Solid Snake]

Edit: I mean, shit, do you see me leaping down Arch's throat for saying she's annoying, or yours for this whole big thing?

No. Because I don't care. I don't care if no one else likes her in the world. I find her amusing, and I don't generally care about fictional characters enough to defend them.

What I CARE about is Fifth's constant thread shitting.

...Yeah, using you as a specific example there was a bad move on part, and one motivated less by anything you (specifically) have said or done and more motivated by the fact that I've seen similar, infinitely more hostile assholes on the MSPA forums utilize ad hominem arguments that appear somewhat similar in tone when condemning anyone who dares whisper that Andrew Hussie is anything less than a godlike beacon of perfection who shines upon the poor morasses of humanity.

EDIT: As for Vriska being divisive, authors who write well make their characters divisive without resorting to actually taking sides in the matter, effectively allowing readers to make their own judgments. The fact that Andrew frequently uses his Formspring and slants dialogue in Homestuck itself to clearly and unequivocably advance his own interpretation of just how "amazing Vriska is" somewhat undercuts this argument. There's no real "debate" to be had when the author clearly wants you to feel sympathy and like his precious Mary Sue. The problem is really that he hasn't written Vriska in a way to ensure that all readers ascribe to his opinions of her lofty status, and then he gets angry at us (his readers) for daring to disagree with his preferred interpretation.

Let me say this much: Despite what authors can do to influence a character's perception, ultimately, a character is judged not by the author himself but by its readers. George Lucas can intend to write Anakin Skywalker into a badass, but in the prequels he failed, and his viewers would not deserve Lucas' admonitions due to his own failures to capture Anakin as he wished. Similarly, Andrew clearly wants everyone to root for Vriska and to tolerate or even adore her for her massive influence in the story, but his writing of her character has not merited that reaction (in my opinion), and instead of responding to criticism by writing Vriska well (in my opinion), Andrew's responded by lashing out at anyone who dares tell him that they think Vriska isn't as intriguing and likable and multidimensional as he thinks she is (in my opinion.)

[Bard The 5th LW]

EDIT: As for Vriska being divisive, authors who write well make their characters divisive without resorting to actually taking sides in the matter, effectively allowing readers to make their own judgments. The fact that Andrew frequently uses his Formspring and slants dialogue in Homestuck itself to clearly and unequivocably advance his own interpretation of just how "amazing Vriska is" somewhat undercuts this argument. There's no real "debate" to be had when the author clearly wants you to feel sympathy and like his precious Mary Sue. The problem is really that he hasn't written Vriska in a way to ensure that all readers ascribe to his opinions of her lofty status, and then he gets angry at us (his readers) for daring to disagree with his preferred interpretation.

Let me say this much: Despite what authors can do to influence a character's perception, ultimately, a character is judged not by the author himself but by its readers. George Lucas can intend to write Anakin Skywalker into a badass, but in the prequels he failed, and his viewers would not deserve Lucas' admonitions due to his own failures to capture Anakin as he wished. Similarly, Andrew clearly wants everyone to root for Vriska and to tolerate or even adore her for her massive influence in the story, but his writing of her character has not merited that reaction, and instead of responding by writing Vriska well, Andrew's responded by lashing out at anyone who dares tell him that they think Vriska isn't as intriguing and likable and multidimensional as he thinks she is.

Can you show me some particular examples of Andrew saying we are supposed to root for Vriska?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass oranything. If you can direct me to a few formspring answers or forum posts by Andrew that flat out state that Vriska is a good person we should love, then I'll accept your argument.

[Loyal]

and she's also the very TV Tropes definition of a Mary Sue,

I should note that the TV Tropes definition of Mary Sue applies specifically to Fanfic. Canon Sue is for Vriska. Other than that, carry on. Your posts are exactly what I was talking about earlier.

This is the point. He intentionally made her to be a divisive character. The fact that there is any debate about her is what Hussie wanted, he has even said so. These Mary Sue traits were also intentional.

He never really said he personally adores or supports what Virska does at all, she's is sort of meant to seem that way though at quite a few times.Like I said elsewhere, this is a really shitty point to make. Her being "a divisive character designed to infuriate the readers" does not make discussion about how divisive she is or how infuriating she is any less valid. It's like if someone draws a shitty comic and says "I already know everything I did wrong with this comic, so don't bother saying anything."

edit: Also, the trolls will die. Sollux already predicted it long ago, so unless dreamselves/revivals count, then Vriska is going down.Of course they count. Sollux even said he'd be dying twice. And there's no reason (especially in prophecy) why a revival would discount the fact that notdream-Vriska died.

[edit] You guys post too damn fast. D:

[Bard The 5th LW]

Terezi's "luck means nothing" line really just gives me the feeling that Vriska is going down for the count. Maybe some will survive, what with John reaching the Scratch all cheery, but Vriska is pretty much being set up to fail incredibly. Although I guess you have a point Loyal, the reamining one's may survive.

edit: Although, Tavros died twice as well going by the dreamself argument. So did Fef, Nepeta, Equius, Kanaya?, and any other victim so far. If we do go by the dreamself thing though, then Sollux has already died twice and is pretty much safe as far as the near future goes.

[Solid Snake]

Can you show me some particular examples of Andrew saying we are supposed to root for Vriska?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass or anything. If you can direct me to a few formspring answers or forum posts by Andrew that flat out state that Vriska is a good person we should love, then I'll accept your argument.

Sadly they're pretty much all on the old Formspring account, which has apparently been axed.
It was never really a single moment where he was like "Guys, I absolutely adore Vriska." Moreso his typical snarky and selective responses to the most poorly worded possible criticisms of the whole "Vriska being responsible for everything from Jade's excessive sleeping to the Bec Noir prototyping" developments way back when all that was revealed, and later around the time she axed Tavros.

And yeah, I did intend Canon Sue (and actually used it correctly, one time,) but I tend to refer to Canon Sues as Mary Sues because that terminology is just simpler, and I never really talk about fanfiction anyway.

[IHateMakingNames]

Mostly unrelated, but I saw it mentioned. Vriska isn't responsible for anything that the kids have done. Regardless of what the trolls do, the things that happen to the kids will happen. She is merely putting herself in directly to claim credit, even though it was already going to happen.

[Krylo]

Terezi's "luck means nothing" line really just gives me the feeling that Vriska is going down for the count. Maybe some will survive, what with John reaching the Scratch all cheery, but Vriska is pretty much being set up to fail incredibly. Although I guess you have a point Loyal, the reamining one's may survive.

I'm guessing against Jack after John gets through, but I could be wrong.

I'm also guessing that if she somehow DOESN'T die it will be John's doing.

Also, it will come with a con-air montage of some sort either way.

Mostly unrelated, but I saw it mentioned. Vriska isn't responsible for anything that the kids have done. Regardless of what the trolls do, the things that happen to the kids will happen. She is merely putting herself in directly to claim credit, even though it was already going to happen.

That's what SHE thinks, but she's wrong. It's a stable time loop. She's as culpable for the creation of Jack, as Jack is culpable for making her think it would be a good idea to create him. She created Bec, saved Jade's life, and thus caused the kids to get into the session, which then created Jack by prototyping with Bec and the scratch that put Jack through to the troll universe, that convinced her to...

To go back to the Xanatos thing, David Xanatos travelled back in time, got a coin, mailed it to himself in the future, thus making himself rich, being rich he used his money an resources to more or less enslave Puck and then raise the Gargoyles, who then brought the Phoenix Medallion into his hands and forcing him back in time, where he then attained the coin which he mailed to himself in the future.

Same ridiculous thing. They're both entirely culpable for the story as it stands.

[Aldurin]

BLUH BLUH HUGE ARGUMENT

And here you guys got me panicked with all of these new posts and the fact that the MSPA site had problems. I thought I was missing out on a huge update.

[Specterbane]

And here you guys got me panicked with all of these new posts and the fact that the MSPA site had problems. I thought I was missing out on a huge update.

Yeah, no kidding. I go to play a game for a bit and pages, freaking PAGES, are added to this thread.

Anyhow, regardless of what you think about characterization you have no right to question a character's actions in this case, in my opinion; because if the author did it Hussie's got the ultimate say, if characters should "live and breath" in their own way then it was them who made those decisions and who are you to say "NO THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WERE REALLY THINKING THIS WHOLE TIME! I KNOW BECAUSE I AM CLEARLY PLOT PSYCHIC!" Regardless it's a moot point because that's what's cannon now.

Case-in-point: Equius. He was a joke character and he stayed a joke character through his end. You might have liked to have seen him grow and advance beyond his short comings that made him a joke character, but that has to stay in your fanfic because that's just not what happened.

But hey, this is the internet. So as everything, that's just my OPINION.

[Loyal]

Terezi's "luck means nothing" line really just gives me the feeling that Vriska is going down for the count. Maybe some will survive, what with John reaching the Scratch all cheery, but Vriska is pretty much being set up to fail incredibly. Although I guess you have a point Loyal, the reamining one's may survive.

edit: Although, Tavros died twice as well going by the dreamself argument. So did Fef, Nepeta, Equius, Kanaya?, and any other victim so far. If we do go by the dreamself thing though, then Sollux has already died twice and is pretty much safe as far as the near future goes.Well, the thing is, even though the prophecy said everyone would die "once," even if we discount "passive" dream-deaths (that is to say, those dreamselves who've died while their waking world counterparts were active), Tavros, Feferi, and Nepeta have all lost their dream selves while they were asleep, prior to getting killed off while awake. Because of this, and Sollux "dying twice," we can only assume that (a) dreamselves count toward the death tally, and (b) the prophecy does not guarantee safety for those who've already died. Basically it's probably meaningless now.

Anyhow, regardless of what you think about characterization you have no right to question a character's actions in this case, in my opinion; because if the author did it Hussie's got the ultimate say, if characters should "live and breath" in their own way then it was them who made those decisions and who are you to say "NO THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WERE REALLY THINKING THIS WHOLE TIME! I KNOW BECAUSE I AM CLEARLY PLOT PSYCHIC!"You're right, what was I thinking. Clearly I should just sit here quietly, watch the show, and make no action except a tacit nod of approval. I thank you for showing me the light!

Case-in-point: Equius. He was a joke character and he stayed a joke character through his end. You might have liked to have seen him grow and advance beyond his short comings that made him a joke character, but that has to stay in your fanfic because that's just not what happened. It's not Equius dying that bothers me (Though I still don't buy that his stupid fetish would so override his desire to protect the remaining trolls), so much as the increasingly ham-fisted and l00dicrous fashion Hussie's been handling the deaths. Tavros, okay. Fef, okay. Kanaya, um. Equius, what the fuck. Nepeta, run goddamnit, and why the hell did Gamzee mutilate his own face?*

* That is to say, why on earth would Hussie foreshadow THE CRITICAL MOMENT with Gamzee's slashed face if it was going to be some red herring via Gamzee slashing himself?

[Fifthfiend]

Are you trying to say that characters have a life of their own beyond the compression of the one who created them and manages their actions?

That's not how writing works.

However, that's a difference in what one finds justifiable. No one goes on to accuse the doucher of being a psychopath, or doing what he does because he's just narcissistic or whatever.

At least no one who actually spends the time paying attention to the story line.

The difference of opinion comes with whether escaping to their fantasy dream world is terrible or not. He thinks it is and believes he's doing the right thing for all of his friends by pulling them back into the real world. No one who has even the vaguest understanding of the story or the character is going to argue otherwise.

The argument is that he's wrong and it was actually a totally terrible thing for them to do. Which is fine, because you aren't rewriting a character, you're simply disagreeing with the conclusions that character came to from their motivations.

FOR INSTANCE: Vriska is wrong about how pushing Tavros to go up a bunch of stairs will make him stronger if he succeeds. She's wrong that it would absolve her guilt in crippling him in the first place. She's wrong that Terezi being able to smell things makes it ok that she blinded her.

However, her motivations are what they are, regardless of whether we as readers agree with the outcomes.

There may be some kind of argument if Hussie hadn't used a reliable narrator character to explain what Vriska's dysfunction was, or if her dysfunction didn't fit with what she did. However, neither of these are true.

Thus, her motivations are what they are. It's up to us to interpret whether her motivations make her actions worse, or better, or whether she's a pitiable or hatable or just amusing character.

That's where the difference lies here, and why Fifth is just wrong about Vriska, not having a different interpretation that is totally equally valid as everyone else's.

HE'S FURTHER wrong because he's been nothing but a total douchebag about how he PRESENTS that interpretation that is not actually justified in the story at all, with comments like:

All over the goddamn place.

I'd be willing to let him keep on being wrong and pat him on the head and say "Yes, Fifthy, your interpretations are equally valid as the author's even though they are considerably weaker from the standpoint of the story placed forth than these other interpretations that the author has done everything he can to beat us over the head with," IF he wasn't such a goddamned asshole about it, or even if he didn't bring it up at EVERY POSSIBLE GODDAMNED OPPORTUNITY.

Because at the end of the day, if Hussie HADN'T gone out of the way to beat us over the head with what, exactly, is wrong with Vriska it would be a matter of opinion, and hey, Fifth's shit still stinks like everyone else's. And, frankly? I'm tired of having it rubbed all over my face every time I look in this thread.

http://nuklearforums.com/image.php?u=264&type=sigpic&dateline=1295222718


The author is still giving them that 'life of their own' and their motivations. They aren't living beings that have lives outside of the author's mind.

Which of course I haven't said. They are however fictional characters in a fictional story that exists as that story is written and should be interpreted based on what's presented. My argument about Vriska's motivations has always been based on her actions in the story.

Regardless of whether Andrew Hussie believes that Vriska's character should be some deeply sympathetic story of a character who can't help that she abuses and then murders cripples, the character as he's portrayed her is consistent with the characterization of someone who is utterly lacking in empathy and acts purely out of selfishness and for the sake of manipulating others.

I mean I get that you have literally no idea how fucking stupid you sound every time you write that she was absolutely positively 100% sincerely only acting out of concern for another character's well-being when she repeatedly assaulted and belittled him, but that behavior is, actually, not consistent with a person who sincerely cares about someone else's well-being, and is actually entirely consistent with someone who is coming up with a self-serving justification for lashing out violently at other people.

If that's not what Andrew Hussie meant to portray, then oh well, because what actually matters is what is actually portrayed in the story.

This is the most obtuse you've been since "nigger-cracks" and you're getting near being as much of an asshole as you were when you dropped that. And amazingly it's for much the same reasons, because you can't help flipping a shit over the suggestion that statements have meaning beyond what the person saying them says they intend by them.

[Krylo]

This is the most obtuse you've been since "nigger-cracks" and you're getting near being as much of an asshole as you were when you dropped that. And amazingly it's for much the same reasons, because you can't help flipping a shit over the suggestion that statements have meaning beyond what the person saying them says they intend by them.Oh hey, look at that dragging up my not representing a Wanda Sykes bit as well as Wanda Sykes did, what, four years ago?

Good job.

I'm impressed with your ability to dig up ancient history in an attempt to shame me.

Which of course I haven't said. They are however fictional characters in a fictional story that exists as that story is written and should be interpreted based on what's presented. My argument about Vriska's motivations has always been based on her actions in the story.

Regardless of whether Andrew Hussie believes that Vriska's character should be some deeply sympathetic story of a character who can't help that she abuses and then murders cripples, the character as he's portrayed her is consistent with the characterization of someone who is utterly lacking in empathy and acts purely out of selfishness and for the sake of manipulating others.

I mean that you have literally no idea how fucking stupid you sound every time you write that she was absolutely positively 100% sincerely only acting out of concern for another character's well-being when she repeatedly assaulted and belittled him, but that behavior is, actually, not consistent with a person who sincerely cares about someone else's well-being, and is actually much more consistent with someone who is coming up with a self-serving justification for lashing out violently at other people.

If that's not what Andrew Hussie meant to portray, then oh well, because what actually matters is what is actually portrayed in the story.

Except for the part where you described her actions yourself as part of the cycle of abuse, which actually requires guilt and remorse.

Except for the part where we had a reliable narrator explain this shit.

Actually, fuck it. You started being the asshole here, EVERY FUCKING PAGE.

But, you know what:

I mean that you have literally no idea how fucking stupid you sound every time you write...Anything on this subject at all.

I'm done.

For about a hundred more posts, then we can do this again.

[Fifthfiend]

Except for the part where you described her actions yourself as part of the cycle of abuse, which actually requires guilt and remorse.

Nope, just expressions of guilt and remorse in order to maintain control of the victim.

Except for the part where we had a reliable narrator explain this shit.

I said what's actually portrayed, not Andrew Hussie arguing for his interpretation of what he's portrayed using a character as a mouthpiece.

If Vriska were someone who ran away from every confrontation and Hussie had Terezi saying she was motivated by courage, or if Vriska gave everyone hugs and listened to their problems and gave them real good advice all the time and Terezi said she was just being a selfish bitch, then those interpretations could also be rejected on exactly the same basis that I'm rejecting Terezi's interpretation of why Vriska likes to torment kids that she's crippled.

Actually, fuck it. You started being the asshole here, EVERY FUCKING PAGE.
http://nuklearforums.com/image.php?u=264&type=sigpic&dateline=1295222718
^
|
|
I'm just looking at this under every one of your posts,

Makin' this look, like

"hmmm"

[Aldurin]

Wait, is this all about Vriska's characterisation? Damn, if I tried hard enough I could probably trick you guys into writing persuasive essays for me.

EDIT: Scratch that. I don't want essays filled with "you're stupid, your posting is terrible and you're ugly".

[Overcast]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

[Fifthfiend]

Or no, better still

Vriska: Having a better grasp on interdimensional temporal mechanics than the average forum goer since 2010.

Yes, I started all the assholing in this thread

its me

[Krylo]

If Vriska were someone who ran away from every confrontation and Hussie had Terezi saying she was motivated by courage, or if Vriska gave everyone hugs and listened to their problems and gave them real good advice all the time and Terezi said she was just being a selfish bitch, then those interpretations could also be rejected on exactly the same basis that I'm rejecting Terezi's interpretation of why Vriska likes to torment kids that she's crippled.

Learn some shit. (http://www.collegecrunch.org/best-of/top-10-psychology-colleges-in-the-usa/)

Her reasoning entirely makes sense for what has happened. You are the only person who doesn't think this at this point. You are being stubborn and obtuse.


http://nuklearforums.com/image.php?u=264&type=sigpic&dateline=1295222718
^
|
|
I'm just looking at this under every one of your posts,

Makin' this look, like

"hmmm"Does my sig offend you?

Would you like me to change it?

Would you quit acting like everyone who likes Vriska for any reason at all is some kind of mentally deranged person who must LOVE NARCISSTIC MURDERING SOCIOPATHS IN THE REAL WORLDS if I remove it?

Because you were doing that WAY before I made that sig, but if it'll get you to stop thread shitting and being a dick bag in this thread out of hand, well I'll be happy to get rid of it.

Edit: I wasn't impressed with the Wanda Sykes bit. I'm not impressed at the FIRST time I got fed up with you thread shitting like a motherfucker, either.

[Fifthfiend]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

We disagree strongly about a topic and both feel that the other person's view and the manner in which they are expressing it reflects on them generally as a person.

Also we've known each other for many years and so have a pre-existing set of views about each other which also enter into things in a way that magnifies particular elements of this particular disagreement.

[Overcast]

Fifth, I'm having a wonderful time particularly with your posts. While many people are trying to make their point via evidence you are trying to bash people down with personal insults. I don't know for sure if you started the assholing in this thread, but I know for sure you are trying to end it by browbeating anyone who disagrees with you down.

And that is just wonderful, how proud you must be of your victories. Not saying that Krylo is doing too much better, hell even Loyal and Bard get the good fun of taking part in some passive aggression while you two trade active aggression. I thought we were discussing a comic book here, disagreements are going to happen but if you guys were saying this shit in real fucking life I imagine you'd come to blows already.

Calm down you whining bastards.

[Marc v4.0]

Wait, is this all about Vriska's characterisation? Damn, if I tried hard enough I could probably trick you guys into writing persuasive essays for me.

EDIT: Scratch that. I don't want essays filled with "you're stupid, your posting is terrible and you're ugly".

Essays get filled with that stuff only after the Prof. reads and notes on them

[Krylo]

I imagine you'd come to blows already.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the first thing I would do upon meeting anyone from this forum is punch them in the face, so that's entirely true, but for completely different reasons.

[Bard The 5th LW]

And that is just wonderful, how proud you must be of your victories. Not saying that Krylo is doing too much better, hell even Loyal and Bard get the good fun of taking part in some passive aggression while you two trade active aggression. I thought we were discussing a comic book here, disagreements are going to happen but if you guys were saying this shit in real fucking life I imagine you'd come to blows already.

I want it to be known that I apologize for taking part in this at all.

[Krylo]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the first thing I would do upon meeting anyone from this forum is punch them in the face, so that's entirely true, but for completely different reasons.

I want it to be known that I apologize for taking part in this at all.

EDIT: Especially you. Loyal.

[Loyal]

Calm down you whining bastards.We're having arguments centered primarily around a character whose explicit, word-of-god purpose in the story is to troll the reader. On a forum where a not-insignificant percentage of us get our jollies sniping at each other (or in some cases just breaking out the artillery, if I may extend the metaphor), just what are you expecting?

[Bard The 5th LW]

I honestly mean it. I can't help but feel I added some fuel to this down the road.

[Overcast]

We're having arguments centered primarily around a character whose explicit, word-of-god purpose in the story is to troll the reader. On a forum where a not-insignificant percentage of us get our jollies sniping at each other (or in some cases just breaking out the artillery, if I may extend the metaphor), just what are you expecting?

Oh I'm fine when you guys start disagreeing. I didn't feel like bothering until it got to the point that people weren't really arguing about the character anymore as much as they were just kinda yelling at each other. I only really noted you and Bard because that last little passive aggressive bite you delivered made my sperm count decrease. Seriously the pain was palpable.

[Krylo]

I honestly mean it. I can't help but feel I added some fuel to this down the road.Don't worry about it.

I'm pretty sure you didn't affect Fifth's and my argument at all.

And, regardless of that, I'm pretty sure Fifth and I will go back to being exactly as cool as we have been for the last however long by tomorrow. Which is kind of an awkward coolness where I still think he's pretty alright but kinda think he might not like me that much anymore so I kinda just avoid the whole thing altogether.

'Cause he's kinda scary sometimes. And can actually get under my skin, as shown in the last few posts.

I'm also thinking we'll get yelled at by POS (and rightly so) but probably not much else in the way of reprimanding. Maybe a temp ban? The last couple posts were pretty nasty? Whatever.

Either way, no permanent damage, so it's chill.

made my sperm count decrease.

Like you need them for anything.

[Krylo]

P.S. No update, but the site is back up.

[Fifthfiend]

Fifth, I'm having a wonderful time particularly with your posts. While many people are trying to make their point via evidence you are trying to bash people down with personal insults. I don't know for sure if you started the assholing in this thread, but I know for sure you are trying to end it by browbeating anyone who disagrees with you down.

And that is just wonderful, how proud you must be of your victories. Not saying that Krylo is doing too much better, hell even Loyal and Bard get the good fun of taking part in some passive aggression while you two trade active aggression. I thought we were discussing a comic book here, disagreements are going to happen but if you guys were saying this shit in real fucking life I imagine you'd come to blows already.

Calm down you whining bastards.

I haven't insulted anyone in particular except Krylo, mainly in response to his posts about my poor reading comprehension/threadshitting/etc etc etc.

The post about empathizing with sociopaths was a bit insulting but, frankly, pretty much in the same tone that I think Krylo and other people in this thread have taken in regards to people who disagree with them. Mostly I think I've done a pretty decent job in this thread of stating my strong dislike of Vriska without making it into a remark about the people who disagree with me. Frankly I think the tone of my response to Locke is much more in keeping with how I've posted in this thread, wherein I stated my views in reply to his views.

If you want to keep calling me a whining bastard all right but I mean my last post to you was pretty civil and this one is as well and I think this thing about how I've done nothing but bash people with insults really is not the case.

[Krylo]

The post about empathizing with sociopaths was a bit insulting but, frankly, pretty much in the same tone that I think Krylo and other people in this thread have taken in regards to people who disagree with them. Yeah, frankly it's just how you make that post every time Vriska gets a page or is in the comic, and it gets to me enough to get into an argument with you every so often.

Edit: It also gets to other people. After the first post I got like three immediate rep. So, I mean, I'm not trying to be mean or whatever anymore, but maybe it would be a good idea to try to cut back on that.


If you want to keep calling me a whining bastard all right but I mean my last post to you was pretty civil and this one is as well and I think this thing about how I've done nothing but bash people with insults really is not the case.Yeah, what the fuck man? How am I supposed to walk away being the bigger man when you're all being civil and shit all of a sudden?

[rpgdemon]

You guys do realize that you've been undone by Evil Earl? He used you both as fodder for a cutting and witty jab, in an edit, no less?

Just some food for thought, to let you know how far you've fallen.

[Loyal]

Oh I'm fine when you guys start disagreeing. I didn't feel like bothering until it got to the point that people weren't really arguing about the character anymore as much as they were just kinda yelling at each other. I only really noted you and Bard because that last little passive aggressive bite you delivered made my sperm count decrease. Seriously the pain was palpable.I was fine until he had the temerity to say I (or "the reader" in general) had no right to say or think something. And to a lesser extent that he'd try and make it sound less offensive with a liberal smattering of "but that's just my opinion." Other than that, we're cool. I think.

[Overcast]

You have not. Though you are making an effort of being more civil now so I won't waste the time doing the quote orgy of every fucked up thing you said, primarily to Krylo. I'm just hoping it keeps up, you aren't a very dumb person and I enjoy when you use that thing you keep under your skull and I'd rather read that and perhaps a few more amusing images than any of that other bullshit I had to run through.

[Krylo]

You guys do realize that you've been undone by Evil Earl? He used you both as fodder for a cutting and witty jab, in an edit, no less?

Just some food for thought, to let you know how far you've fallen.

I'm pretty sure I saw that, but it doesn't make sense in the context of the words you were using to describe it.

[rpgdemon]

I'm pretty sure I saw that, but it doesn't make sense in the context of the words you were using to describe it.

Well, completely true and accurate is -like- cutting wit.

[Arcanum]

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j122/arcanum_DF/sbahj.png

[POS Industries]

I'm also thinking we'll get yelled at by POS
Shit, dawg, my plan is to let you two kill each other and then seize power in the vacuum.

By all means, continue. For my amusement.

[Krylo]

Shit, dawg, my plan is to let you two kill each other and then seize power in the vacuum.

By all means, continue. For my amusement.

Welp, Fifth, you heard the man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rl46Dpy-P4&feature=related).

[BitVyper]

I don't think I assumed that part of that emotional growth involved killing each other (if Vriska is correct)

I don't think she's right. The game is all about choices, and that is certainly one choice, and if they'd gone that route, yeah they'd probably have come out as just standard adult trolls, but y'know, better. The path they took is more complex, however, and I think the greater challenges mean growing beyond their beginnings. Vriska is experiencing doubt right now, but I think she's focusing it in the wrong direction.

Anyway, it's nice to see Vriska pretty much turning out the way I hoped. I'm also wondering if our species might be the way it is because of Karkat being the major determining factor in how their game was played.

[Archbio]

And here I thought I wrote an overgrown rant about it.

A few people seems to have said things that indicate that they think that there's no distance between what the author of a work intends, what the author says they intended, how the work actually reads and how the reader interprets it.

There's possible distance between all of those things.

So you hate her because she is a thirteen year old girl version of David Xanatos?

Edit: Also that's totally unfair to Xanatos.

[Krylo]

There's possible distance between all of those things.

Yeah, but Hussie has really gone out of his way to paint the motivations of Vriska as they are, and while maaaaybe it's a valid conclusion that, no, all that is wrong, I'd suggest it's not an equally valid conclusion, because, again, it's been pretty heavily beaten into us that this is Vriska's personality and none of her actions actually counteract that.

There's just not a lot of room for alternate interpretations of the work on this particular issue at this point.

Edit: I mean, I'd still like her if she was an empathy-less sociopath, because I don't like her because she has feelings. I like her because she does shit like the 'gotcher legs' scene. Which makes me laugh. I like her because of her interactions with John. None of that really has much to do with whether she's driven by guilt or just some kind of sadistic need to hurt other people.

Well maybe the interactions with John.

But, it's just that this is the interpretation of her character that is most prevalent looking at the work. It's been stated twice now, by two separate characters, only one of which is arguably an unreliable narrator on this point. And her actions don't really make sense from a pure sadism stand point.

Why wouldn't she have just killed Tavros in that case? Why would she fall in 'love' with him if she was a monster like that? Why would Kanaya fall in love with her if she's as bad as all that? Why would she have Equius build Aradia a robot long before they were ever trapped in paradox space (that is to say when showing remorse wasn't socially viable as a method of manipulating others--besides the dead girl)? Why would she worry about whether John was angry at her even after he said he wasn't?

You COULD hand wave that, yes, but that's all it would be. Hand waving. There's just a lot that makes the MOST sense if we look at it from her just being completely fucked up and incapable of actually showing guilt or remorse other than through violence. Which, considering the fact that she was raised by a giant spider that forced her to feed children to it, isn't all that surprising of a character development. Neither would actual sociopathy for that matter--but then that still leaves other questions about her motivations. Only the guilt-pathy thing she's got going on really ties everything together.

Which is, not so ironically, exactly the way we're supposed to see the character.

[katiuska]

I don't think she's right. The game is all about choices, and that is certainly one choice, and if they'd gone that route, yeah they'd probably have come out as just standard adult trolls, but y'know, better. The path they took is more complex, however, and I think the greater challenges mean growing beyond their beginnings. Vriska is experiencing doubt right now, but I think she's focusing it in the wrong direction.

I hope that's true, because it would be a lot more interesting that way, and it makes sense that, Vriska, being Vriska, would interpret the game the way she did.

Anyway, it's nice to see Vriska pretty much turning out the way I hoped. I'm also wondering if our species might be the way it is because of Karkat being the major determining factor in how their game was played.

It's funny, I read that last part just as someone else IMed me with the same thought and wondered if humans' candy-red blood was a clue, so I think that's pretty likely.

...Actually, to be blunt, I'm even more surprised by John's reaction to Vriska's confession, rather than Vriska's confession itself. Her doubts feel somewhat natural, but his empathy for a killer (even a presumably repentant one) seems...ugggggggghhhh.

I swear if this is leading to a John / Vriska shipfest I will gouge my eyes out.

Y'know, my initial read was that the conversation killed any red intentions on John's end, now that he's beginning to learn what Vriska is and how different their species are. Maybe I'm just projecting what I want to be true, though. He does seem disturbingly nonchalant about the whole thing, but then again, the Homestuck kids have never really reacted all that much, despite how awful and/or ridiculous their circumstances are to any reasonable person.

[Locke cole]

I guess he's trying to be racially sensitive? Or he's scared horribly by what Vriska's done, but knows that he can't do much about it from his end or timeframe, or maybe he's trying extremely hard to give her the benefit of a doubt because she helped him, or something.

The revelation has most assuredly recolored his opinion of her, I think. Just not sure to what extent.

In other news, remember the beep that signaled the cut back to this, after all the rhythmic honks? Got me thinking like maybe it was supposed to sound like a heart-rate monitor.

The beep is Nepeta flatlining

[Krylo]

The thing about John, is that John is the nicest dude in the history of ever. He doesn't really have a jerky bone in his body. There was basically no way he was going to disconnect on Vriska or tell her off or whatever, because it is John.

You could kick John square in the bojangles and as soon as he stopped keeling over in pain he would totally accept your invitation to go get hot dogs and talk about how kicking people in the bojangles is pretty fun.

I'm pretty sure John's probably a little confused more than anything. I mean this is over a chat thing and all. And he's talking to someone who saved his life by convincing him to nap on the god bed--he even figured out that's why she did it all on his lonesome (or at least he's giving her the benefit of the doubt, it was really probably a combination of that and a convenient way to god tier him).

I mean, how do you react to this person who has been helping you and being basically nice to you and who you have never been exposed to their horribleness ever, suddenly telling you that they killed a whole bunch of people, but then felt bad about killing this most recent one and they don't know how to deal with feeling bad about killing this person?

It's pretty much a huge 'uhhhhhhhhhh'.

Especially for someone as kind hearted as John.

[BitVyper]

I hope that's true, because it would be a lot more interesting that way, and it makes sense that, Vriska, being Vriska, would interpret the game the way she did.

The way she interpretted the game would still be right from one perspective. It DID set things up for exactly that sort of scenario.

[Archbio]

Krylo, I personally have no problem with the "Vriska abused Tavros to try and make herself feel better about crippling him" interpretation. That's really not what I was referring to.

But I don't see how that and "Vriska takes pleasure in violence" are mutually exclusive. It think you sort of have to start there for the rest to make sense. I think any mixture of sadism/mind game love/guilt functions as an explanation.

And relying on what characters say about the psychology of characters to establish it is really kind of poor.

[Krylo]

And relying on what characters say about the psychology of characters to establish it is really kind of poor.

Not when the author has gone out of their way to make the character a supernatural expert on knowing the psychology of other characters.

Story: Terezi is the best at Troll Psychology naturally.

Story: Terezi has magical mind powers that let her understand other people's minds supernaturally.

Story: Terezi is the character who knows Vriska the best.

Terezi: Vriska does x because y.

Terezi being wrong doesn't follow that line at all. If it was Karkat who said all that, or Equius, or Gamzee, then sure.

It also doesn't follow given that her actual actions don't conflict with it at all.

Edit: It's like if you're watching CSI and they bring a character in who is an expert at criminal profiling, and then they profile a criminal, and then the criminal acts exactly within the profile, and then the expert uses the profile to predict how the criminal will react and lure them into a trap, and then someone says "But the expert is wrong BECAUSE".

Except it is this times ten because Terezi also has supernatural powers and a long history with the criminal in question to aid in her profiling.

EDIT2: Unless you mean from an authorial standpoint, in which case I would kind of agree, but suggest her actions also back up the thing the character said, and also that the character only said those things after the readership was clearly 'not getting it' the way the author wanted them to, and so he introduced two separate information dumps in the form of chat logs as narrative devices to help the readership get it. Probably because whatever plans he has for the character aren't going to make sense if half the readership is viewing her as A when he wants her viewed as B.

I'm ok with suggesting Hussie might not be the best author ever (and would totally agree with it, it's a web comic not Edgar Allen Poe or whatever), but at the same time he really has bludgeoned us with what he wants us to think of the character.

EDIT3: I'd argue she doesn't necessarily have to be sadistic, just broken in such a way that she doesn't really know how else to deal with people other than through sadism. I mean, she's obviously sadistic. Look at that grin in Bit's avatar, but I don't think it's one of her driving motivations.

[BitVyper]

And relying on what characters say about the psychology of characters to establish it is really kind of poor.

Er, isn't that like, Lit 101 of analyzing characters? Like "what others say about the character, what the character says about themself, etc etc etc"

[Archbio]

Not when the author has gone out of their way to make the character a supernatural expert on knowing the psychology of other characters.

Well, actually, it's still a poor way of establishing character. In that case it's not poor in the sense that it's not reliable; it's just poor form. Show, don't tell, ect.

I don't recall exactly what was Terezi's insight about Vriska, by the way.

Er, isn't that like, Lit 101 of analyzing characters? Like "what others say about the character, what the character says about themself, etc etc etc"

I think what characters do is still number 1.

[Krylo]

Well, actually, it's still a poor way of establishing character. In that case it's not poor in the sense that it's not reliable; it's just poor form. Show, don't tell, ect.Yeah I edited when I realized that might have been your intent.

I don't recall exactly what was Terezi's insight about Vriska, by the way.Exactly what I've been saying. That she'll do something in a moment of anger/sadism/whatever other thing, and then she'll try to make up for it in the worst possible fashion, because she thinks that if whomever she hurt can overcome whatever she did to them, then she won't feel bad about whatever she did to them anymore.

[Aldurin]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the first thing I would do upon meeting anyone from this forum is punch them in the face, so that's entirely true, but for completely different reasons.

What did we ever do to you?

[Archbio]

Yeah I edited when I realized that might have been your intent.

Well, both meanings usually go hand in hand. It's bad form because it's not really effective. Somewhat.

[Krylo]

Well, both meanings usually go hand in hand. It's bad form because it's not really effective. Somewhat.

Yeah, he didn't do a good enough job showing it with just the actions--though I'm not sure how much more he could have done considering the fact that Vriska also does her best to hide that she feels bad about anything she's done is also part of her character--so he wrote in some exposition dumps to just right out say it.

Which, itself, may not have been the best method.

But the two things combined are pretty much the equivalent of him hitting us with a proverbial baseball bat with Vriska's motivations engraved in it.

It's, obviously, entirely possible to interpret them differently, or to interpret the nuances of her motivations and personality differently, but I don't think any other interpretation besides the guilt thing really has much strength behind it looking at the story as objectively as I am able to. Edit: Though the nuances of how much sadism drives her vs guilt and an inability to cope with other people are MUCH more open to debate.

Which may not be THAT objective, because I've always found her to be amusing, so I'll admit some bias probably exists.

Edit@Aldurin: I need a reason to punch people in the face now?

[Dracorion]

... Twelve more wigglers?

[POS Industries]

..."OTHER twelve wigglers"?

[Art of Hilt]

And what about the OTHER twelve wigglers you spawned?

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/1503/1296376177667.gif

[Krylo]

Blargh, Terezi is going to do something stupid.

There's a pretty high chance that at least one of my two favorite trolls is about to be out of the story.

[POS Industries]

I think I may have an idea: Remember when John did the ectobiology thing and paradox cloned the guardians, then their DNA was mixed together to create the kids?

Well, it can be assumed that Karkat just directly paradox cloned himself and the other trolls, since he doesn't appear to be aware of his or his friends' parentage. However, the ectobiology process would still carry on as usual and combine the DNA from the paradox clones into new offspring, making the other 12 wigglers the genetic children of the trolls.

[Dracorion]

I figured they would be new extra lives.

Though if the other twelve are children of the original twelve, I wonder who paired up with who?

[POS Industries]

Gog dammit where's Nepeta when you need--oh right.

[Locke cole]

And what about the OTHER twelve wigglers you spawned?

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

Not bein' ninja'd, just don't care about being first.

[Krylo]

It's probably a giant clusterfuck. Don't trolls actually have more than two parents? Like you need a black rom and a red rom to fill the buckets or you die? Or am I misremembering?

I kinda zoned through most of the troll romance shit. I mostly just wanted to get back to the kids back then.

[Dracorion]

It's a conspiracy!

Also, I'm not sure these wigglers would be the children of the trolls.

The way John ectobiology setup worked he made ghost slime out of the guardians, made the babies, and then pushed a button to make the offspring. But there were only four tubes involved.

In Karkat's ectobiology lab, there are twenty four tubes. I think there were no offspring involved, and he just went and cloned another different set of twelve trolls. Whether these douchebags are related to the original trolls remains to be seen.

[Aldurin]

Gog dammit where's Nepeta when you need--oh right.

HONK

[Art of Hilt]

Terezi did not replace a single "I" with a "1" in the entire conversation.
Deliberate????
????
???????

[Krylo]

Terezi did not replace a single "I" with a "1" in the entire conversation.
Deliberate????
????
???????

It's actually Gamzee pretending to be her.

She's already dead.

[POS Industries]

It's a conspiracy!

Also, I'm not sure these wigglers would be the children of the trolls.

The way John ectobiology setup worked he made ghost slime out of the guardians, made the babies, and then pushed a button to make the offspring. But there were only four tubes involved.

In Karkat's ectobiology lab, there are twenty four tubes. I think there were no offspring involved, and he just went and cloned another different set of twelve trolls. Whether these douchebags are related to the original trolls remains to be seen.
Possibly, though I'm not digging my way all the way through the Alterniabound flash again just to confirm whether or not there were 24 tubes like you say.

[synkr0nized]

so...



It sounds like no one yet knows about Aradia or what she did to Jack.
And I am still waiting to see what Rose does. As much as I am also holding my breath re: Kanaya and her fate.

[Dracorion]

Possibly, though I'm not digging my way all the way through the Alterniabound flash again just to confirm whether or not there were 24 tubes like you say.

I just did.

24 tubes.

[POS Industries]

Well then, the plot thickens!

[IHateMakingNames]

God dammit. Site isn't working and it sounds like something interesting may have happened.

Edit - Apparently it's just the home page.

[Aldurin]

Aradia is fighting the much-missed feeling of her arms being tired, of course. Rose is playing with dark magic, so whatev.

And I swear if Kanaya is sparkling I'll freakin' murder the whole trollslum rp cast.

[Krylo]

so...



It sounds like no one yet knows about Aradia or what she did to Jack. Yeah no idea. It's kind of important, too, 'cause depending on what she did she's either fucked or on her way home.

And I am still waiting to see what Rose does.I'm guessing her blowing up the green sun causes the scratch, which is why Aradia warned her it would lead to a lot of people dying and what not. I'm also guessing that it's pretty important in the big scheme of things vis a vis fixing the universe and defying fate. As much as I am also holding my breath re: Kanaya and her fate.I'm thinking there's three possibilities:

1) She is hunting Eridan and breaking things so he can't run from her when she finds him.

2) She is going to try and alchemize another matriorb and is breaking pads so no one can break the new one.

3) She is an undead monster seeking the blood of the living and her very passage through the pads destroys them because of her unholy countenance.

The last seems least likely to me.

[Locke cole]

Possibly, though I'm not digging my way all the way through the Alterniabound flash again just to confirm whether or not there were 24 tubes like you say.

*about 1 minute later*

Yeah, there were 24 tubes.

We only saw 12 wigglers in the flashback given, so that threw us off the trail.

[Krylo]

The trolls all have a continue.

That is what the wigglers were. None of the deaths are permanent and everyone lives happily ever after once John, Dave, and Jade enter troll space and stop Jack.

Edit: And then Terezi breaks up with Karkat and Dave and VriskaxTerezi. Incestuous scourge sisters for life.

[POS Industries]

*about 1 minute later*
Looks like 11 minutes by my watch and you were beaten to the punch.

[Archbio]

But the two things combined are pretty much the equivalent of him hitting us with a proverbial baseball bat with Vriska's motivations engraved in it.

Hey, my problem wasn't with "Vriska's outrageous abuse of Tavros is shaped by guilt" (which I accepted without problem the first time around, if not just out of her actions) but more with what's made out of it. Like: "Vriska's outageous abuse of Tavros is alright, because she meant well!"

But really, overall Vriska wasn't as a big a black mark on the story for me as it was for others, altough that would probably change if I were to keep reading, if I hadn't made that clear enough already.

[Locke cole]

Looks like 11 minutes by my watch and you were beaten to the punch.

...1 minute after loading up Alterniabound...

It was more a "it didn't take that long ya big wiggler" comment.

[Krylo]

"Vriska's outageous abuse of Tavros is alright, because she meant well!"

Yeah, I don't think anybody really thinks THAT. I tried to keep calling her broken and wrong and point out that I don't think this redeems her as a good person a few times, and I'm sure no one else really believes that to be the case either.

Regardless of her reasons, Vriska is pretty strongly in the villain camp. She just might be in the 'tragic villain' camp instead of the 'soulless villain' camp, depending on your precise mileage.

[synkr0nized]

Yeah no idea. It's kind of important, too, 'cause depending on what she did she's either fucked or on her way home.

I understood it to have been her freezing him in some kind of bubble or time-thingy. I don't remember the timer that went on it, but it was something like a few hours tops. We haven't seen what she's done since, so hopefully she's moved away -- he was mid-attack (it made a great vector image). Even if Hussie manages to further ruin (lolemotionalresponsetoawebcomic) Kanaya, I can hope Aradia continues to be excellent.



I am starting to worry for Terezi. She's kind of had a rivalry thing with Vriska for a while, and unless I am taking things too literally seems to not like her. She's clearly assuming Vriska's been behind all of the murders, so that is going to both leave her completely unaware of the threat of Eridan and Gamzee running around and motivate her to confront Vriska. She's not "god tier" yet and isn't the author's favourite, so I suspect that could easily end badly for her.

[katiuska]

It's probably a giant clusterfuck. Don't trolls actually have more than two parents? Like you need a black rom and a red rom to fill the buckets or you die? Or am I misremembering?

I kinda zoned through most of the troll romance shit. I mostly just wanted to get back to the kids back then.

As far as we understand, yeah, basically. Anyway, I always wondered how ectobiology was supposed to work in the trolls' session, given what we saw in the kids' and what we know about troll reproduction and family structure.

This brings me back to the question what connection, if any, the guardians have to the game beyond being the kids' biological parents, since they all seem to have some familiarity with it (e.g., Grandpa could cross the Medium and was apparently involved in SBURB's development, and Bro showed up at Dave's arrival with tiny glasses for his new brotherson). If the other 12 trolls have no relation the ones we know, though, then I guess it's all irrelevant.

[Krylo]

I am starting to worry for Terezi. She's kind of had a rivalry thing with Vriska for a while, and unless I am taking things too literally seems to not like her. She's clearly assuming Vriska's been behind all of the murders, so that is going to both lead her completely unaware of the threat of Eridan and Gamzee running around and motivate her to confront Vriska. She's not "god tier" yet and isn't the author's favourite, so I suspect that could easily end badly for her.

Well, Vriska is currently in the process of telling John how she feels shitty about killing Tavros, and Tavros was less important to her than Terezi was in the big scheme of things, so I really don't see Vriska killing Terezi.

Also: We know Terezi lives past the end of the countdown from the memo or whatever, at least, so there's that.

I'm more worried about Vriska, because if there's one character who could get Vriska killed, it's Terezi. I'm thinking there's a good chance of them both coming out fine, and maybe even taking down Gamzee together, because Terezi will need to talk at Vriska to manipulate her, and in doing so should learn that Vriska only killed the one troll, etc. etc.

BUT I have seen writers decide that two characters, who could solve everything with five seconds of conversation, should go ahead and try to murder each other anyway even if it's not in their character to do so, and I'm not sure I trust Hussie not to do that here.

[Solid Snake]

BUT I have seen writers decide that two characters, who could solve everything with five seconds of conversation, should go ahead and try to murder each other anyway even if it's not in their character to do so, and I'm not sure I trust Hussie not to do that here.

I'd actually be even more disappointed if Terezi forgave Vriska and decided to trust her within five seconds after Vriska confessed that she "only" killed Tavros.

...But that's just me.

EDIT: I will say that I'm actually fairly optimistic about Kanaya, though.

..Not that I was the least bit happy with how Andrew handled her "death," or anything. Coincidentally, however, I believe the general outcry against Andrew's handling of Kanaya's death sequence increases the odds, however slightly, that Andrew isn't fucking around with us with a fakeout and he won't turn Kanaya into a monster. After toying with Kanaya fans so many times already, I think folks like me would be up in freakin' arms if Kanaya was akin to a zombie.

...Besides, she's effectively a vampire and not a zombie or a ghost or some other form of undead, and I've never read an interpretation of a vampire that's turned them into completely mindless creatures. Some are more violent and more bloodthirsty than others, (and I'm really hoping this won't enter Twilight territory) but I'm expecting her to still be able to speak and be lucid. It really wouldn't make any sense to write her as an undead character just to add one more murderer to the killings when Gamzee and Eridan are already running amok.

[Krylo]

I'd actually be even more disappointed if Terezi forgave Vriska and decided to trust her within five seconds after Vriska confessed that she "only" killed Tavros.

...But that's just me.

Well I don't mean full forgiveness and trust in five seconds, but that's all it should really take to realize there's something else going on and maybe trying to talk Vriska into some kind of elaborate attempt on her life isn't the best thing to do at the moment.

[BitVyper]

Terezi could be rationalizing things as Vriska's fault due to blackrom feelings. Just the reverse of what those in love often do. Otherwise she's not really behaving like herself.

Edit: By which I mean she's missing lots of things.

[Premmy]

I strongly feel like Kanaya will be Twilight like a muthafucka, just guessing here.

[Dracorion]

Pthbthhppbtbhhh!

[Solid Snake]

...I should add that I'd feel it'd feel equally out of character for Terezi and Vriska to fight immediately upon seeing each other: Vriska's clearly in a solemn state (I may disagree with the authorial intent there, but Andrew can't contradict the narrative after the fact) and Terezi really is the least likely personality type to immediately jump to any false conclusions without a thorough interrogation first.

Ideally, Terezi would convince Vriska to help deal with Gamzee, and then covertly message something to Karkat to the effect of "Everything's fine for now, but we're going to have a Vriska problem." (Obscure LOST references FTW.) I'll be 0kay with things so long as Terezi and Karkat hold Vriska at arm's length and continue to privately view her as a threat, even if they're forced to use her to stay alive in the interim.

I just don't want Tavros' death to be forgiven and forgotten the minute Vriska starts acting heroic, which is usually what tends to happen in the context of Canon Sue characters.

EDIT: I strongly feel like Kanaya will be Twilight like a muthafucka, just guessing here.

...If my favorite Homestuck character becomes a female Edward Cullen, and Rose becomes her Bella, I swear to God I will burn the Kanaya plushie I paid good money to have shipped to me. I will burn it and then I will cry liquid tears of sorrow.
...It would shock me if Andrew went that route though, because he's not a thirteen year old, he knows his audience isn't thirteen year old females, and I can't really think of a worse message to send to any member of the LGBT community who identified with Kanaya than transforming her into Stephanie Meyer's excrement.

...Then again, he did have a gag character who enjoyed posters of horse dicks, so...
Shit.
(Kanaya as a gag character? I'd almost rather she stayed dead.)

[Kim]

But nobody cares about Tavros!

:D

[Krylo]

LGBT community who identified with Kanaya than transforming her into Stephanie Meyer's excrement.

Karkat's gay, too.

For John.

And himself.

[Solid Snake]

...I've had that debate about fifteen trillion times in the MSPA forums before, but frankly, I'm not the ideal person to make it anyway.
But: Yes, Kanaya wouldn't view herself as gay, but it isn't about how she views herself, it's how subsets of readers view and relate to her.

This is why, for example, in a fantasy story in which Africa as a continent does not exist and black-skinned individuals were never discriminated against and never considered a minority, black viewers will still identify strongly with the African-American actor playing a character on-screen.

EDIT: Karkat hated John, which isn't quite the same as him desiring RedRom. Even still, his realistic shipping matches are women: Terezi, Jade, and I've even heard Kanaya's name thrown around, albeit usually as a moirail.
Kanaya really is the only exception to the hetero-normative rule. Which is actually kind of strange, because you'd expect more potential same-sex pairings among the trolls given their views on sexuality, but nearly all the major pairings advocated directly or indirectly (and advocated seriously, not just for the lulz) are heterosexual anyway.

[Kim]

I felt worse for Karkarat not getting John than I did for Tavros dying.

The only sad thing about Tavros dying was that no more awful things could happen to him now. Probably.

[Art of Hilt]

...If my favorite Homestuck character becomes a female Edward Cullen, and Rose becomes her Bella

i never read twilight but bella is the stupid helpless girl right
Because in that case I think you wouldn't have to worry since "stupid helpless girl" is almost the complete opposite of who Rose is
In fact between the two I'm pretty sure Rose is the dangerous one.
At least according to Kanaya.
When she wasn't a vampire.
Hm.


(Kanaya as a gag character? I'd almost rather she stayed dead.)

... yeah. I mean, there was a lot of effort into establishing her as a character before and after Hivebent as something more than 'vampire girl', so if all that gets thrown out the window... bleh. I honestly doubt it considering the build up which was much more different than Equius' or Nepeta's or any of the other gag characters, but still. Bleh.

[Krylo]

EDIT: Karkat hated John, which isn't quite the same as him desiring RedRom. Even still, his realistic shipping matches are women: Terezi, Jade, and I've even heard Kanaya's name thrown around, albeit usually as a moirail.
Kanaya really is the only exception to the hetero-normative rule. Which is actually kind of strange, because you'd expect more potential same-sex pairings among the trolls given their views on sexuality, but nearly all the major pairings advocated directly or indirectly (and advocated seriously, not just for the lulz) are heterosexual anyway.

BlackRom is just as important to trolls as RedRom.

In human terms, think of BlackRom as one really long hate fuck. All of Karkat's hate fuck potentials have been dudes. John, himself, Eridan, and I think even Sollux had some black rom potential near the very beginning.

All his RedRom potentials have been women, that's true, but it's kinda unfair to say he's heteronormative just because he has more 'normal' romantic feelings for women and more 'primal lust' feelings for men.

I mean, that's still pretty gay.

Also, I'm still shipping TerezixVriska. Forever.

[Solid Snake]

...Dear Andrew: You might want to try, y'know, foreshadowing the existence of twelve additional troll characters before unleashing that little bombshell as almost an afterthought.

Also, Terezi and Vriska would be an awesome BlackRom "couple," it's true.

[POS Industries]

I felt worse for Karkarat not getting John than I did for Tavros dying.

The only sad thing about Tavros dying was that no more awful things could happen to him now. Probably.
I was happy to see Grandpa Harley finally avenged, personally.

...Dear Andrew: You might want to try, y'know, foreshadowing the existence of twelve additional troll characters before unleashing that little bombshell as almost an afterthought.
We already established there were 24 tubes. What the hell did you think was in them? Thanksgiving gravy?

[Kim]

@SolidSnake He did. We just didn't notice!

[Krylo]

Also, Terezi and Vriska would be an awesome BlackRom "couple," it's true.

Or RedRom. They were FLARP partners for a very long time. They just need to kiss and make up.

Well Terezi does. Vriska is probably completely ignorant of the fact that there is anything wrong. Just like she's completely ignorant of the fact that Kanaya likes her.

[Solid Snake]

@SolidSnake He did. We just didn't notice!

...Wait.
What?
When?

[Krylo]

When you weren't looking.

Edit: The same time at which he foreshadowed Vriska giving Droog the meow code.

[Kim]

See the 24 tubes thing several people mentioned already, plus the fact that when the kids were created their "parents" were created, too, but we never saw equivalents for the trolls. That's pretty much the only way he *could* foreshadow it without just showing it outright.

[Krylo]

I still say they are perfect troll clones, and act as continues for the troll session.

[Kim]

I wanted to draw a comic of Terezi going, "What are you doing?" Karkat responds, "Getting a life." Then he devours a little baby Karkat and spends four panels chewing on it.

Then I remembered I'm shit at art.

[Solid Snake]

See the 24 tubes thing several people mentioned already, plus the fact that when the kids were created their "parents" were created, too, but we never saw equivalents for the trolls. That's pretty much the only way he *could* foreshadow it without just showing it outright.

Twenty-four tubes?
...I'm sorry, but that barely constitutes any foreshadowing at all. The rational assumption is simply that it takes two tubes to make a troll. Or that the additional tubes were to make their own "parents." The lus-whatever-they're-called.

Also I just feel it isn't the slightest bit realistic for Karkat to have created twelve additional, unknown individuals and not bother to mention or even allude to this vaguely in any conversation with any other troll at any other point in time.
...Also I'm rather worried about the implications regarding the potential creation of twelve more characters to follow around. Enough's enough, already.

[Krylo]

Twenty-four tubes?
...I'm sorry, but that barely constitutes any foreshadowing at all. The rational assumption is simply that it takes two tubes to make a troll. Or that the additional tubes were to make their own "parents." The lus-whatever-they're-called.

Also I just feel it isn't the slightest bit realistic for Karkat to have created twelve additional, unknown individuals and not bother to mention or even allude to this vaguely in any conversation with any other troll at any other point in time.
...Also I'm rather worried about the implications regarding the potential creation of twelve more characters to follow around. Enough's enough, already.

When you weren't looking.

Edit: The same time at which he foreshadowed Vriska giving Droog the meow code.

.

[Kim]

Why would that be the rational assumption when it was shown clearly to not be the case with the human children?

I almost typed clone shearly.

Whelp.

[Locke cole]

Meh, thatd be odd. It'd be interesting if they were all mixes of personality traits of the trolls.

Like, one's an Aradia/Tavros hybrid,mand the next one's Tavros/Sollux, and then one's Sollux/Karkat.

All the way up to Eridan/Feferi (ew).

...or something.

[Premmy]

Just like she's completely ignorant of the fact that Kanaya likes her.
Spoilers:
Kanaya came back to fuck Vriska. Then Kill her.

[POS Industries]

Twenty-four tubes?
...I'm sorry, but that barely constitutes any foreshadowing at all. The rational assumption is simply that it takes two tubes to make a troll. Or that the additional tubes were to make their own "parents." The lus-whatever-they're-called.
Except that we already saw the ectobiology process when John did it, so we know how many tubes would have been involved to make 12 trolls. It's foreshadowing, but it's not his usual beat-you-over-the-head-with-it foreshadowing. By which I mean it's actually good foreshadowing that doesn't telegraph the whole damn plot for once.

[Kim]

The delivery of this information was lacking, I felt, so if you want to argue it wasn't written well go for it, but like I said if you're asking for more foreshadowing you're asking Hussie to have just flat-out shown or told us this info before now. Basically what POS said, but whatevs.

[Art of Hilt]

The rational assumption is simply that it takes two tubes to make a troll.

Except we've already seen how paradox cloning works with John and have no reason to assume otherwise. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003772)
It takes a ghost slime and puts it in one tube per person.

Or that the additional tubes were to make their own "parents." The lus-whatever-they're-called.

To be fair, the lussuses/lussii/lususjdsijds are just random animals of no genetic relation to the trolls.

..Also I'm rather worried about the implications regarding the potential creation of twelve more characters to follow around. Enough's enough, already.

I know that feel, man.
I know that feel.
Hoping they stay sort of distant, like I'm also hoping Jade's grandson stays sort of distant.

e- they're probably responsible for all those human items ending up in Alternia I bet

[Locke cole]

Why would that be the rational assumption when it was shown clearly to not be the case with the human children?

I almost typed clone shearly.

Whelp.

Look, the ectobiology thing had 4 vats in John's session.

It took the four guardians, and mixed them, human-style, to create the kids who were genetic offspring of them, as well as making babby clones of the guardians themselves.

Karkat's lab has 24 tubes. Presumably, since Troll Biology Sure Is Weird, he needed twice as many vats (two trollmance pairs) for each wiggler.

That still leaves us with another set of wigglers unaccounted for.

Because Trolls ain't related to the lusii, remember?

[Krylo]

The delivery of this information was lacking, I felt, so if you want to argue it wasn't written well go for it, but like I said if you're asking for more foreshadowing you're asking Hussie to have just flat-out shown or told us this info before now. Basically what POS said, but whatevs.

I think the problem isn't that the foreshadowing was insufficient, but that realistically this should have been dropped on us sooner. We've known Karkat and the trolls for a long time, and this is the first time in all that time he's so much as thought about the twelve babies he made and teleported off somewhere without knowing anything about them?

Dropping it this late in the game makes it feel like it came out of nowhere even WITH the foreshadowing that was present. Had we seen his lab way earlier, and then heard about this like a month or so ago? Then yeah, it would be like "Oh- HO!" but as it is? Not so much.

THIS COULD however be one of those serial readers/update readers issues, though. It might not seem like such a long wait if you're archive binging.

It's kind of obvious Hussie is writing this for the 'read the whole thing at once' crowd, which, in itself, I feel is a weakness in his writing, to be honest. You can't pace a periodical the same way you pace a novel, which is what he's been doing.

And it causes weirdness like this amongst the periodical readers.

[Premmy]

I know that feel, man.
I know that feel.
Hoping they stay sort of distant, like I'm also hoping Jade's grandson stays sort of distant.

Jade's Grandson is one of the wigglers

[Locke cole]

Except we've already seen how paradox cloning works with John and have no reason to assume otherwise. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003772)
It takes a ghost slime and puts it in one tube per person.


Because that's how it works for humans. We take two people and... mix things to get one new person.

Trolls need two sets of... genetics per wiggler.

[Arcanum]

The 12 additional Trolls that Karkat made, whoever the hell they may be, were sent to Alternia along with the 12 Trolls we know and love via meteors and the reckoning. In other words there is no way they are in the Troll's game session.

The only exception to this would be if the meteors these 12 New Trolls were placed on were never fired off towards Skaia before the Old Trolls beat the Black King and stopped the reckoning. In which case they are in the session but still Wrigglers.

Personally I think these 12 new trolls are either A) a Red Herring with no real relation to the plot, or B) Something that we will learn about WAY later on with minimal importance to the story as we currently know it.

Edit-- Plus with the whole jab at how everything Karkat makes dies, it's entirely plausible these 12 New Trolls are dead and of no importance at all.

Edit2 -- About the whole 24 tubes thing, it makes sense for a single set of 12 trolls because you have 6 Matesprit pairs, and 6 Kismesis pairs, all of which will then be mixed into an incestuous slurry to create the 12 trolls. It's possible Karkat did this procedure twice, but who knows at this point.

[Kim]

Because that's how it works for humans. We take two people and... mix things to get one new person.

Trolls need two sets of... genetics per wiggler.

But they're getting them from the same genetic pool. It'd just be combinations of different trolls from the large group of trolls.

@Krylo I don't disagree.

[Art of Hilt]

Because that's how it works for humans. We take two people and... mix things to get one new person.

Trolls need two sets of... genetics per wiggler.

Or we could run with the earlier line of thought that you illustrated

It took the four guardians, and mixed them, human-style, to create the kids who were genetic offspring of them, as well as making babby clones of the guardians themselves.


And conclude that, since the kids' session only had four vats and used them to mix one set of paradox clones to make a second set of paradox clone babies, the 24 vats only create one set of 24 paradox clones and, since no mixing was involved*, there is only that one set of 24 paradox clones, 12 of which Karkat recognized, and 12 which he does not.

*- unless he decides to do that RIGHT NOW and ends up somehow with 48 trolls total
ie the theorized creators of the trolls' universe

[Krylo]

Personally I think these 12 new trolls are either A) a Red Herring with no real relation to the plot, or B) Something that we will learn about WAY later on with minimal importance to the story as we currently know it.

Cloooones, everyone lives happily ever after! They even get the personality and memories and shit like dream selves.

This is my 100% serious prediction for the end of Homestuck.

[POS Industries]

Edit-- Plus with the whole jab at how everything Karkat makes dies, it's entirely plausible these 12 New Trolls are dead and of no importance at all.
They were all instantly murdered by the Gamzee wiggler upon their creation.

[Kim]

My personal theory is that it builds up to them having a huge importance to the story and then it cuts to them all being dead already.

[Krylo]

They were all instantly murdered by the Gamzee wiggler upon their creation.

It is from their corpses that the slime pies were fashioned.

[Kim]

They are all the trolls' Nobodies.

[Locke cole]

Or we could run with the earlier line of thought that you illustrated

And conclude that, since the kids' session only had four vats and used them to mix one set of paradox clones to make a second set of paradox clone babies, the 24 vats only create one set of 24 paradox clones and, since no mixing was involved*, there is only that one set of 24 paradox clones, 12 of which Karkat recognized, and 12 which he does not.

*- unless he decides to do that RIGHT NOW and ends up somehow with 48 trolls total
ie the theorized creators of the trolls' universe

Wait, so that would mean that the other set of wigglers aren't related to Karkat and Co. at all?

And I guess we should've been tipped off to something like this when Alternabound only showed the 12 wigglers. We should've been asking "where are the others?", since we'd already seen John's ectobiolosession.

[Krylo]

They are all the trolls' Nobodies.

They're obviously Heartless.

[Art of Hilt]

Wait, so that would mean that the other set of wigglers aren't related to Karkat and Co. at all?

Yup!
At least that is one of the possibilities, which fits perfectly into what is known.

e- until hussie suddenly decides to describe troll recreation in full detail
with fully animated diagrams
and music

[Locke cole]

Let's just hope that those wigglers grew up and somehow got into the medium like the kids' guardians have.

Otherwise they're dead.

Oh, and I missed this tidbit before.

Or just maybe, she was right about them all along.

Which she is he talking about? Terezi?

[Kim]

troll recreation

He did!

They play FLARP!

[Art of Hilt]

Shit!
Reproduction! That's completely different!
Except when you have recreational reproduction.
In which case it's only slightly different.

[Krylo]

Except when you have recreational reproduction.



There's plenty of Fanon for that.

[Kim]

Nobody reproduces for recreation. That's just a side-effect.

I hope.

[Locke cole]

Ceiling Nepeta is watching you recreate.

[Amake]

Whoa that's a lot of new pages. Reading back to page 133, I have found some cause to reevaluate my opinion of Vriska. I think now the reason I feel for her is the vast difference between who she is and who she wants to be.

Not defending her actions or the way she works in the story, Fifth and Snake are pretty much right that those things, respectively, may be terrible, and in fact I want to dislike her as I do most villains. But I still want to give her hugs, finding it impossible not to relate to the discovery that you're not as good a person as you think you are.

That is all.

[rpgdemon]

I think the problem isn't that the foreshadowing was insufficient, but that realistically this should have been dropped on us sooner. We've known Karkat and the trolls for a long time, and this is the first time in all that time he's so much as thought about the twelve babies he made and teleported off somewhere without knowing anything about them?

Dropping it this late in the game makes it feel like it came out of nowhere even WITH the foreshadowing that was present. Had we seen his lab way earlier, and then heard about this like a month or so ago? Then yeah, it would be like "Oh- HO!" but as it is? Not so much.

THIS COULD however be one of those serial readers/update readers issues, though. It might not seem like such a long wait if you're archive binging.

It's kind of obvious Hussie is writing this for the 'read the whole thing at once' crowd, which, in itself, I feel is a weakness in his writing, to be honest. You can't pace a periodical the same way you pace a novel, which is what he's been doing.

And it causes weirdness like this amongst the periodical readers.

Yeah, I just caught up a few days ago, and it seemed fine to me.

[Amake]

He has mentioned precisely that a number of times on Formspring. I really can't fault that kind of long-term thinking. Even if it's hard to accept what we're getting now as the story updates is not the story as it is going to be told, I'm sure it'll give both repeated and long-lasting enjoyment in the years to come.

(As well as 136 pages of fun discussion right now.)

[rpgdemon]

Where were Gamzee's scars foreshadowed? Someone mentioned it awhile back?

[Arcanum]

Too lazy to get the link, but when Jade's lab drops and "The most important character of homestuck fondly regards the miracle of a new beginning" (i.e. Gamzee watches Jade's lab drop) there are the scratch marks on his face. Although some people thought that it was simply blood splatter (which made no sense even before we knew for sure that Nepeta clawed him).

[Wigmund]

Nobody reproduces for recreation. That's just a side-effect.

I hope.

http://www.sugarslam.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Duggar-Family.jpg

[Art of Hilt]

this update

oh thank god I was so worried we'd have to learn twelve whole actual new characters.
But the twist went in the coolest fucking direction possible.
Holy shit LEGENDARY ANCESTOR

[Kim]

PLOT TWIST: THERE'S GONNA BE A HUMAN VRISKA DUN DUN BLUH BLUH

[Locke cole]

Hm. This brings new meaning to the apparent self-insert-Mary-Sue nature of Vriska's FLARP persona. I guess "You already ARE her" was way more meaningful to her than originally though.

[Dracorion]

So no extra lives or offspring of the trolls.

Maybe the ancestors are also able to enter the troll session a la Grandpa Harley.

Or hell, maybe the ancestors ARE the trolls themselves. Like, literally, the same exact trolls. Somehow.

[MuMu]

So, Vriska is a descendant of Simone

[Krylo]

Ok, so yeah, THIS, maybe a bit too much humanizing of Vriska. Also a little disappointed that John wasn't at least a LITTLE more taken aback by the murder thing. I was kinda hoping for some wangst there where he kinda stopped respecting her and just kind of acted normal John nice instead of John + you are my friend nice.

Eh, whatever.

[Bard The 5th LW]

By virtue of Vriska being the one saying it, the humanizing aspect can only be taken so seriously. I really do think John would have had a more strong reaction, but I also suppose it would be wise to befriend the dangerous one. Why make her more dangerous? John <> Vriska may work out well

[Marc v4.0]

I dunno, he seems to react about the way I would react if an alien told me that she felt bad for murder in a society where murder is just a thing that can happen to anyone at anytime if they aren't careful and it is accepted. He is being understanding and sensitive instead of trying to force his/our moral viewpoint on another culture in the most ass way possible.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I have to admit the most jarring part to me was Vriska casually admitting to feeding children to a giant monster and John just sorta letting that part of the conversation go on without a word.

[Intern Nin]

I really, really hope that John and WV decide to take a joyride in that battleship lying off in the distance.

[Arcanum]

And the mystery of the 12 other trolls is revealed (sorta). Also it's funny how obvious this really was, what with Eridan talking about the exact same thing to Jade.

[Locke cole]

What the hell does "it smells brighter" mean?

The lights were already on, Gamzee doesn't kill with light, and why would Eridan be back?

[IHateMakingNames]

Isn't Kanaya a sunlight vampire or something?

[Locke cole]

...I was about to suggest Vriska (Thief of light), but now I am too speculating that Kanaya is in the room.

And sparkling.

[Dracorion]

No more Tholluxth?

This comic is ruined forever.

[Fifthfiend]

Yeah, frankly it's just how you make that post every time Vriska gets a page or is in the comic, and it gets to me enough to get into an argument with you every so often.

Edit: It also gets to other people. After the first post I got like three immediate rep. So, I mean, I'm not trying to be mean or whatever anymore, but maybe it would be a good idea to try to cut back on that.

It's really not the post I make about Vriska, unless by that you mean "any post in which I state in any way that I have a problem with Vriska." Which you pretty clearly do, much the way you pretty clearly have a problem with anyone who dislikes Vriska, as demonstrated by the fairly large proportion of your posts in this thread that are you arguing about whatever the fuck involving Vriska.

Like I sat down and said hmmm maybe all I am doing in this thread is hating vriska non-stop all the time, maybe it really is just that my usage of "sociopath" is so wholly unconscionable as to justify this sort of shit and I went back and looked and... nope, I actually spend a lot of this time saying enthusiastic and postitive things about the story, and even Vriska when she does anything that isn't awful. And then people react to some incredibly awful thing Vriska does and there you are to start some huge ridiculous argument about it.

So basically what i'm saying is this deal where you suddenly start singling me out as the only person who has an opinion about Vriska that you have problems with was pretty much a huge load of shit, and if you're gonna continue having a problem with my posts about Vriska then, well, that's gonna be a problem for you I guess.

And whichever three of the endless anonymous legions of my hate-fanclub repped you for it.

On topic: Vriska is still awful, John gets progressively more awful the more he talks to her, the whole "it's just their culture" thing gets more awful every time it comes up.

[Specterbane]

Yes, Kanaya is a sunlight vampire...and I think there's a strong possibility of sparkling...which is not an easy thing to say. But it's neat to see Sollux being truly chill for a change.

And just to weigh in on the ongoing Vriska debate, like an idiot I guess.
...the whole "it's just their culture" thing gets more awful every time it comes up.
Unless you're going to say there are moral absolutes that transcend not only race and religion barriers but also separate dimensions I'm not sure it'd be fair to hold Vriska's culture against her if that's what you mean Fifth. Which is understandable, and a perfectly fine way of reasoning, but people are torn about lately without having the idea of a whole other race getting involved. Personally I'm still more inclined to say it's, Troll murder culture that is, pitiable in it's deplorableness; but the reigning opinion these days is who am I to judge. Ultimately it's a fictional setting that's bringing up that question though.

[Locke cole]

You know, it's funny. For being from a race of unrepentant murderer/conquerers, a surprising number of the 12 have strangely human opinions about murder.

...At least as it applies to people they know personally.

[Marc v4.0]

I begin to think that might be rather the point, they are all a bit weird for their kind

[Art of Hilt]

It's not John's fault he's so understanding. He took a lot of courses in xenoanthropology.

[Overcast]

Also he is a nerd, nerding kinda makes you better at dealing with that kinda of weirdness.

[Pip Boy]

Also pretty much his entire species is extinct and the entire universe as he knew it has suddenly proven itself to be nothing more than the half-finished abortion of some video game.

It probably puts a bit of perspective on things.

[Solid Snake]

On topic: Vriska is still awful, John gets progressively more awful the more he talks to her, the whole "it's just their culture" thing gets more awful every time it comes up.

What I really don't get about those who defend Vriska with the "it's just their culture" argument is how the argument seems to apply selectively to Vriska and only Vriska, and does not apply with equal measure to Gamzee and Eridan. If Vriska should be absolved of her behavior because trolls are supposed to be written as murderers, then logically speaking, Eridan and Gamzee are just doing what they're being born and bred to do. But clearly, Eridan and Gamzee are written by the author as irredeemable, lousy, unrepentant, thoroughly unlikable villains; we are not intended as an audience to feel any empathy towards them.

So this concept that suddenly with one of the murderers there's this selective "hey, it's just troll culture" argument that's fostered really seems less like a legitimate defense of Vriska's actions and more like something the author is trying to force down our throats so that we'll all "forgive Vriska" or at least see her as "complicated and multifaceted" when she's really just a dull and annoying Canon Sue.

And I agree regarding John. He's still my favorite kid, but every conversation he has with Vriska seems to threaten that status. It's hard to imagine John as the bastion of moral virtue he's intended to be as a protagonist when even Rose seems more likely to have an absolutist response if a troll (even Kanaya) had made a similar confession to her.

Finally, I agree with another comment (that I have not quoted) to the effect that Andrew's thesis that Vriska's actions were justifiable under the umbrella of "troll culture" are undermined when the vast majority of trolls we've interacted with do not seem to comply with the annals of "troll culture." If many of the protagonistic trolls, like Terezi and Karkat and Sollux and Kanaya and Nepeta and Equius and Tavros and Feferi, were written as equally willing to murder all but their closest friends and/or quadrant matches, then I think there'd be a point. But if the trolls are by and large just presented as humans with really weird ideas of romance and strange cultural origins, and then three of them become murderers while the other nine by and large react like humans would and morally object to their behavior, and two of those three are clearly presented as one-dimensional villains to be feared or despised for their actions, the concept that Vriska is somehow "special" feels forced.

But really I could rant on and on about how I feel about Vriska, and I'm not going to convince anybody. That's not really the point, though. I'm just disappointed, less so with the thought of Vriska's mere existence (I can deal with the notion that there's a single character in any narrative that I'd dislike) and moreso because there's a very real chance she's being built up into a romantic interest for one of my favorite characters and if that actually happens I might gouge my eyes out.

Like I'd rather see John end up in some years-later afterword with Jade rather than Vriska, which is less an endorsement of pseudo-incest and more an endorsement of anyone but Vriska, John!

[Specterbane]

You know, Vriska's killing of Tavros was different than the others given that she at least waited for him to charge as opposed to out right dominate him. But has anyone else mentioned that all of the trolls that are going on murder sprees are all higher-bloods who are moving in favor of the cast system set up?

Feferi and Gamzee were the written in exception to wanting dominion as a right of blood. Feferi stayed true to it through the end and Gamzee out right snapped. I think this is at least a point towards the "troll culture" argument being more justifiable when you look at that.

A friend of mine made another good point that Vriska's also not out to murder everyone like the other two, yet she's getting lumped into it when the latest updates show no sign of her wanting to actually do that, for that matter she never has. She's just been a completely self-centered, arrogant, unrepentant troll who grew up in an abusive wriggler-lusus relationship.

All I'm saying is, why you guys gotta be pickin' on the emotionally crippled? Oh, right, cause she picks on cripples too. Well...picked.

[IHateMakingNames]

You know, Vriska's killing of Tavros was different than the others given that she at least waited for him to charge as opposed to out right dominate him. But has anyone else mentioned that all of the trolls that are going on murder sprees are all higher-bloods who are moving in favor of the cast system set up?

Eridan first formally dueled Sollux, then attacked Feferi and Kanaya only after they charged him. Given, Eridan did hopeslode Kanaya's orb.

And Eridan wanted to kill all the land dwellers when he was a joke character. His first kill was the highest caste sea dweller ever. And Gamzee appears more totally crazy than feeling caste superior.

Just because the author likes Vriska more so she gets a lot more lines, she's still just as evil as the other two. Eridan probably has equally sympathetic reasons, we'll just never see them because we never see Eridan.

[Krylo]

Like I sat down and said hmmm maybe all I am doing in this thread is hating vriska non-stop all the time, maybe it really is just that my usage of "sociopath" is so wholly unconscionable as to justify this sort of shit and I went back and looked and... nope, I actually spend a lot of this time saying enthusiastic and postitive things about the story, and even Vriska when she does anything that isn't awful.


You have 272 posts in this thread.

Of those, 50 mention the word Vriska. Of those, none are positive. This means that over 1/6th (18%, just under a fifth) of all of your posts in this thread are negative.

Further, of those, a pretty good number are things like this (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1102707#post1102707), where you are actively insulting people for liking the character.

So yeah, there's roughly a 1/6 chance of any post of yours in this thread being insulting.

But oh hey, wait, it's totally possible for you to discuss Vriska and be negative about her without actually using her name! Like this! (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1105258#post1105258) Or this! (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1103123#post1103123) Granted, neither of these are BAD POSTS, but they kind of pile up with the stuff like the other thing I linked and, welp.

Or like that time you used three pages along with a couple other people complaining about how Hussie is a massive wanger in his Formspring.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! Waaaaaay back in the day, before Vriska was even introduced you were posting in this here thread, and being positive. I'm not going to bother figuring out what percentage of your posts are from back then as opposed to more recently, but I think you can figure out for yourself that the math would probably put you closer to 1/5th or 1/4th of all your recent posts.

Oh, but snap dog, you don't even have to talk about Vriska to be annoyingly negative (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1106111#post1106111). Mostly because there are what? Four? Five posts exactly like that?

I mean, I have similar sentiments there, but we don't need to read that the suspense is boring every time the suspense updates, man.

Or like, comparing the comic to Bleach (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1106925#post1106925).

And again, most of those posts wouldn't be bad, but the negative stuff you post is, at this point, over half of your posts in their entirety. Like, in the first four pages (100 posts) of a search for your name on these forums I found... uh, you telling EE that he made a good post, some horse puns, and something about how Karkat was cool. Oh and a couple posts about how John's flying car was great.

Speaking of, that WAS a nice break from your general negativity. You were being positive for awhile there.

And even your general negativity would be more palatable if you'd write more than "Welp Vriska's awful!" Or "Welp I'm bored of this suspense" or whatever. It's just like, "Wow, thanks for that insightful thought into the comic that totally tells us how you feel and contributes to the discussion at hand."

As an aside: and even Vriska when she does anything that isn't awful.Where? You have a lot of posts in this thread. I didn't see it, but I, OBVIOUSLY didn't read all of them.

Was it before she was revealed as creating Bec? Because pretty much no one had a (serious) problem before that, from what I remember. But, again, I haven't been in this thread as much as you, so.

It's really not the post I make about Vriska, unless by that you mean "any post in which I state in any way that I have a problem with Vriska." Which you pretty clearly do, much the way you pretty clearly have a problem with anyone who dislikes Vriska, as demonstrated by the fairly large proportion of your posts in this thread that are you arguing about whatever the fuck involving Vriska.

[...]

And then people react to some incredibly awful thing Vriska does and there you are to start some huge ridiculous argument about it. Yeah, look at all that bitching I'm doing at Arch and Snake. Man, I sure did tear into them with their well worded and perfectly understandable arguments about why they don't like a character that I like.

Boy, it sure did piss me off when they didn't imply anyone who liked Vriska was wrong forever, or has some kind of emotional problem, or is some kind of lesser bleeding heart version of a person.

Yup.

Oh, and hey, I have 130 posts in this thread Of those, 41 are about Vriska, and of THOSE about, what, five-ten posts are arguing with you, another 5-10 with Archbio completely civily. There was the one a minute ago where I said that Vriska was getting a bit too humanized and it's getting ridiculous the level of sympathy we are actually supposed to be showing her at the length this has gone one, and that I'm a bit disappointed in John for not reacting more. One was me calling Vriska a narcissitic bitch indirectly when I said she leapt to this conclusion because VRISKA and then that one because VRISKA. And the ones where I was half joking about Scourge Sister Red/BlackRoms. Or that couple where I was poking fun about her being the last surviving character. Or the joke picture of FF6's Opera Duel Scene.

And then there were the posts where I did things like transparancy'd greed's avatar for him or the posts about talking about predictions vis a vis Rose and the Green Sun and what's going to happen there.

And there is only one post I could find that could be read has insulting (this spat with you not-withstanding), and you already quoted that earlier. I went through the entire six pages of my posts, though I didn't read every single post in their entirety (I mostly remembered them after reading the search feature's excerpts).

There is a minority of my posts in which I am defending Vriska, and of that number about half of those aren't entirely serious (Vriska = Xanatos), and of those that are, a minority of those WERE confrontational/insulting until this last little spat.

And whichever three of the endless anonymous legions of my hate-fanclub repped you for it.Five now. Which is basically the most rep I've gotten for any single post.

Also: One for comparing Vriska to Xanatos in response to Snake.

And I don't think you have a hate-club, really. I also don't think just writing it off as 'well they OBVIOUSLY HATE ME' is the healthy response here. I don't know about anyone else, but I DON'T HATE YOU, Fifth.

For real, Fifth, I don't care if you hate on Vriska. What I would LIKE to see you do, and what would keep this from happening every few months, is if instead of just posting things like, 'Vriska is awful and John is her awful sycophant' maybe post something closer to, well, what EVERYONE ELSE (who thought it was kinda dumb) posted (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=34621&page=544) in response to John's continued failure to react to Vriska telling him about all the people she's killed.

And maybe not responding to anyone saying anything about anything Vriska does with off the cuff flippant remarks with zero thought behind them like 'wrong and awful' and nothing else.

And maybe no longer saying things about how Homestuck is testing the internet's ability to empathize with narcissistic sociopaths, or how anyone with a Vriska avatar's opinion is invalid or...

I get that you're joking, and I'm sure everyone else does too, but it gets old.

I guess what would ALSO keep this from happening is me not coming to this thread anymore, or growing a thicker skin and learning to ignore it better, but I dunno. Maybe we could meet halfway on that?

Edit@IHMN: Eridan isn't as funny.

[Marc v4.0]

Eridan first formally dueled Sollux, then attacked Feferi and Kanaya only after they charged him. Given, Eridan did hopeslode Kanaya's orb.

Which was a provacation, so it doesn't really count for "well Kanaya attacked first so it is different"

[synkr0nized]

Let me request here in this post that we have less interpersonal arguments/discussions/essays about each other and focus on the comic and characters themselves. It has kind of overtaken the thread a little bit.

I will blame it on Hussie.

[Aldurin]

Sollux's new face reminds me of someone now, but I can't remember who.

I don't know, maybe it's that the lack of teeth makes the smile resemble Homestar's regular expression.

[Archbio]

Sollux's new face reminds me of someone now, but I can't remember who.

No, no. I don't mean Clint Eastwood the actor, I mean these guys' lead singer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoQYw49saqc)

[Dracorion]

Gentleman Krylo, I think you are stupid and smelly! You offend me, sir! I hereby challenge you to fisticuffs at dawn!

My good sir, I find your vocabulary grotesque and appalling! You are, as they say, on!

I think this is a good synopsis of Fifth and Krylo's whole "thing".

[Solid Snake]

Or like that time you used three pages along with a couple other people complaining about how Hussie is a massive wanger in his Formspring.


...Not going to trudge in to debate anything else (which would seem more appropriate in the context of a private PM between you and Fifth, maybe?) but as one of those "couple other people" who complained about Hussies' formspring antics, exactly what was wrong with that, again? I mean, a Homestuck thread does appear to be the perfect place to actually discuss comments made by the author in a blog dealing with the webcomic.

I mean I get the whole "critics of Vriska and supporters of her alike shouldn't resort to ad hominem quips about those who disagree with them," tidbits, that makes perfect sense to me, but the notion that the author can't be in some sense held accountable for his mentality or the way he portrays himself and his work seems silly to me. Insofar as Andrew treats his formspring account as a method to respond to his own Homestuck critics, it seems like a fair topic of discussion for this thread.

...And given that this thread would almost certainly be an ideal place to include praise of Andrew Hussie as an author (for material one liked) it also seems appropriate to include criticism of his behavior.

Also: By your logic, aren't I technically worse than Fifth, since a far greater proportion of my posts have been negative and critical of Andrew as an author, and/or Vriska as a character? I think you should concentrate less on comments made about Vriska specifically and more on the stupidity of personalized ad hominem arguments regardless of which character the perpetrator is defending or criticizing.

[Krylo]

...Not going to trudge in to debate anything else (which would seem more appropriate in the context of a private PM between you and Fifth, maybe?) but as one of those "couple other people" who complained about Hussies' formspring antics, exactly what was wrong with that, again? I mean, a Homestuck thread does appear to be the perfect place to actually discuss comments made by the author in a blog dealing with the webcomic. I meant before you came back, and Hussie deleted his old one.

AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT BY ITSELF. But Fifth was talking about how so many of his posts were fun and positive and stuff, so.

Also: By your logic, aren't I technically worse than Fifth, since a far greater proportion of my posts have been negative and critical of Andrew as an author, and/or Vriska as a character? I think you should concentrate less on comments made about Vriska specifically and more on the stupidity of personalized ad hominem arguments regardless of which character the perpetrator is defending or criticizing.
You make a good point.

My good sir, I find your vocabulary grotesque and appalling! You are, as they say, on!


ANYWAY, I'm gonna go ahead and say I'm not going to respond here vis a vis Fifth anymore, or at least do my best not to because it's apparently bugging some people.

If you really want to talk about it you can PM me or whatever.

[Solid Snake]

...Well, at least Andrew's given us something to talk about now.

...So what exactly has happened here? Is Dave asleep? But isn't his Dreamself still alive? Why does he appear to be twelve years old? Is this a hallucination? Or is Aradia time-traveling and effectively changing what happened in the past?

[Dracorion]

It may be Aradia time travelling with her bitchassed time powers.

But it's probably a dream bubble thing like with Jade and dead Feferi.

I hereby posit that Dave's dreamself died when he stared at the HORRORTERRORS.

[Krylo]

It may be Aradia time travelling with her bitchassed time powers.

But it's probably a dream bubble thing like with Jade and dead Feferi.

I hereby posit that Dave's dreamself died when he stared at the HORRORTERRORS.

But if that happened then Dave is going to die forever to Diamonds. And that is a thing that can not be true.

[Solid Snake]

...The forums seem to believe it could be dead Davesprite or dead FeltSuitSacrificeDave?

...How exactly would that work?
So Confused

[Dracorion]

But if that happened then Dave is going to die forever to Diamonds. And that is a thing that can not be true.

Wait, what?

Explain this to me.

[Krylo]

Wait, what?

Explain this to me.

There was a flash forward at some point of Dave getting run through by Droogs. Killed.

If his dreamself is alive at that time he'll probably be revived by Jade (though John would be way funnier/better), if it's not he's done like dinner.

Also@Snake: Dead dreamselves apparently go to the outer rim, or some kind of afterlife. Apparently the forums think Aradia can contact them.

I don't think she would though, because both of those Daves are now out of the Alpha Timeline and thus talking to them would be pointless. I'm pretty sure Aradia created a splinter past timeline (or time bubble) in which to speak with Dave. Maybe her god tier powers even let her defeat the whole predestination thing? Or doing the dream thing that Vriska did with WV or whatever.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Dave is dead. Calling it.

"because stupid, YOU'RE dead"

[Solid Snake]

There was a flash forward at some point of Dave getting run through by Droogs. Killed.


Wasn't that a flashback?

[Dracorion]

There was a flash forward at some point of Dave getting run through by Droogs. Killed.

If his dreamself is alive at that time he'll probably be revived by Jade (though John would be way funnier/better), if it's not he's done like dinner.

You mean this? (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004964)

I thought that was doomed dave (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003763) from forever ago.

On another note, happy Aradia makes me happy.

[Krylo]

Wasn't that a flashback?

Depends on how you define forward and back when you're dealing with a dude what time travels like a motherfucker. It was pretty obviously a 'older' Dave than the one we've been following, though (or Dave just doesn't like talking about how he was murdered).

Edit: Ah yeah, mighta been the doomed Dave. Forgot about that.

[Loyal]

There was a flash forward at some point of Dave getting run through by Droogs. Killed.

What, this bit? (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004963) I thought that was a call back to way back here. (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003763)

e: Bluh.

[Dracorion]

Alternatively: Dave's dreamself isn't dead, but the HORRORTERRORS pulled it into the dream bubbles so they could better instruct him on how to make that map.

[Solid Snake]

...It seems like the most sensible assumption to make right now is that Dave's Dreamself dies at one point or another and we just haven't yet seen how, but if his Dreamself was dead that would allow Aradia to communicate with Dave when he's asleep through a dream bubble.

...Still, it's rather strange that Andrew wouldn't show us what happen(ed) to DreamDave first.

EDIT: So the Horrorterrors put DreamDave into some sort of a trance? Sucked him into the netherworld, even?
...Well, that might be interesting.
...But jeez, this whole ordeal makes me regret all this time-jumping shenanigans. It's difficult to interpret this all cohesively.

[Krylo]

Vriska was able to communicate with WV through dreams and WV doesn't have a dream self and wasn't dead.

I think the safer assumption is that Aradia is doing the same thing.

[Dracorion]

...Still, it's rather strange that Andrew wouldn't show us what happen(ed) to DreamDave first.

Really, you're surprised?

Because time displacement is all Dave's ever done since entering the medium.

[Amake]

Am I the only one to notice Dave's coolkid reaction to a troll fairy in a hoodie materializing behind his back? Such a blistering cool kid. But at some point, like in the case of colonel Kilgore, we have to raise the question how much of it is icy nerves and how much is perception and reaction impaired to such a degree that we have to suspect brain damage.

[Art of Hilt]

Really, you're surprised?

Because time displacement is all Dave's ever done since entering the medium.

Hell, it's all he has been doing before entering the Medium. From his very first appearance. The first time the comic pulls the whole "skip back a few minutes from a different character's perspective and see the same conversation that we just saw from the first character's perspective" was with Dave.

But yeah another option is that Aradia decided to talk to Dave back when his dreamself was only half-awake, and Dave had regular dreams.
In fact it might be the reason why he was half-awake instead of just sleeping like Rose or John.

Am I the only one to notice Dave's coolkid reaction to a troll fairy in a hoodie materializing behind his back? Such a blistering cool kid.

So cool I caught frostbite and lost a few fingers.

[Loyal]

The only thing that can get Dave's earth goat is puppets, and Aradia ain't no puppet.

[Dracorion]

OR IS SHE?!

[Locke cole]

I'm still waiting for Dave to bleat like a goat.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Still waiting for Dave to be dead all along.

[Aldurin]

When I saw the whole Dave playing Bro's xbox I was like "why are you using a dead person's loot, especially if that dead person is Bro?"

Also Aradia doesn't need no stinkin' doors to get to the human world.

[Art of Hilt]

When I saw the whole Dave playing Bro's xbox I was like "why are you using a dead person's loot, especially if that dead person is Bro?"

Well it's not like they're doing anything with it.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Dave is dead. Calling it.

"because stupid, YOU'RE dead"

Called it.

[Locke cole]

Welp.

[Specterbane]

That you did Bard. But after all if there's anyone who'd be an expert on dealing with doomed selfs it'd be Aradia.

[Art of Hilt]

It took me a second to process how weird it was to see a troll and kid sprite walking around together for several panels at a time.

[Solid Snake]

...This is now the story of how Felt Suit Dave will become Lord English.

[Krylo]

Even his reaction to getting his throat cut is so cool kid.

"Welp."

[Bard The 5th LW]

...This is now the story of how Felt Suit Dave will become Lord English.

Most definitely.

[Specterbane]

It does make sense to make it a stable time loop. The suit had to be made using the Felt poster, but the felt were made by Lord English. So if Felt Suit Dave is LE then everything loops around.

This means Lord English is truly David Xanatos!

[Aldurin]

I was afraid it was turning into an Old Spice ad with all of the "but it was actually this which is now this" stuff.

[POS Industries]

Alive Aradia just took a stunning leap forward among the ranks of my favorite trolls.

She's just so damn cheery!

[Kim]

I was afraid it was turning into an Old Spice ad with all of the "but it was actually this which is now this" stuff.

come to the window
take a look
i'm not there anymore
turn around
sadly you are not god tier

[Aldurin]

come to the window
take a look
i'm not there anymore
turn around
sadly you are not god tier

but you can smell like god tier
if you use Old Spice

[Locke cole]

Look down
back up
where are you?
You're on a bed, with the tier your tier could smell like
What's in your hand?
Back at me.
I have it.
It's a captcha card with two timetables to that event you love.
Look again.
The timetables are now quartz!
Anything is possible when you smell like a God tier and not a Tavros.

[POS Industries]

I'm on an Equius.