Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[MuMu]

The Green Sun's creation and/or LE's arrival.

[Dracorion]

I thought it was the reset.

It'd explain why Gamzee was watching Jade tossing her dead dreamself into Becsprite at the time. That was the event that allowed Jade to later be reborn into Jadesprite to have access to Bec's powers, which allowed her to go back to the beginning.

How Gamzee knows any of this I'm not sure about. It could be, as MuMu says, that it's the creation of the Green Sun. Or, Gamzee might know stuff everyone else doesn't because he's been talking to Scratch.

Damn, that's a lot of gray. When can we stop using spoiler tags?

[Marc v4.0]

That was the event that allowed Jade to later be reborn into Jadesprite to have access to Bec's powers, which allowed her to go back to the beginning.


I think the whole 'of Space' thing allowed for that, not getting "access to bec's power". It is inherent to who she is the same as the others.

[Dracorion]

Hard to tell which it is, frankly. The fact that there's a green glow over everything she does might mean that it's at least a combination of both.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Jade pretty much scored a literal godtier through the contraptions of her prototyping.

[Revising Ocelot]

Damn, that's a lot of gray. When can we stop using spoiler tags?

Swap tags are the future.

[Specterbane]

Given that I only just got the chance to see this before posting here And Holy shit was that worth the wait to me, I shed a tear, there's a lot to unpack from that I'd say spoiler tags are called for at least until the end of the day, maybe even till the end of tomorrow depending on how the site handles the traffic.

[Revising Ocelot]

The flash is working onsite now, by the way.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Upon reflecting, I do think there was something odd about this flash. It sorta didn't feel like Homestuck I guess. Maybe the way it was animated? Most likely, it was the amount of time between updates. It almost felt like it was a different story I was watching, or that someone different had taken the reigns behind it. That isn't necessarily a negative thing, but it does feel jarring. Hopefully a return to regular updates can help assuage this feeling.

[POS Industries]

There are little things I keep realizing about this flash the more I think about it that I missed.

Like the reason Jack didn't kill PM was because he was still holding up his end of their deal.

[Fifthfiend]

I think my favorite thing about the flash is that Doc Scratch is straight-up lying the entire time.

Because why does any top-tier villain go to the incredible hassle of painstakingly cultivating a reputation for never actually TECHNICALLY lying, if not so they can tell a universe-destroyingly massive straight-up lie?

[Locke cole]

Well, I found someone who came up with a different conclusion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=dokqadcgjuslxm0wsbqrzpau&page=2339#58463).

[Amake]

I think my favorite thing about the flash is that Doc Scratch is straight-up lying the entire time.

Because why does any top-tier villain go to the incredible hassle of painstakingly cultivating a reputation for never actually TECHNICALLY lying, if not so they can tell a universe-destroyingly massive straight-up lie?
Well, the only other one I know is Lucifer (in the comic Lucifer) who does it out of nothing but pride. Doc has a lot in common with him actually, probably why I never questioned his claims to truthiness. (Still not entirely buying it.)

[Locke cole]

Well, the only other one I know is Lucifer (in the comic Lucifer) who does it out of nothing but pride. Doc has a lot in common with him actually, probably why I never questioned his claims to truthiness. (Still not entirely buying it.)

Comparing him to Lucifer, in any work, seems appropriate. Again, Old Scratch.

[mauve]

Holy moly that was a long movie. I can see why it took Hussie so long to complete! I dunno where to even start discussing it though. Quite a lot went on and I'm sure I'll have to watch it several more times before I fully get everything that was going on.

I am, like most other people who've posted in this thread depressed about the distinct lack of Exiles now, especially after losing WV. [Although to be quite honest, I didn't really care about the White Queen and King, so the loss of those characters is not really a big deal.] But PM was always one of my favorites for some reason, so while I'm depressed that she's now a giant winged dog-thing and not dazed-looking chess piece lady anymore, at least she's still alive and, apparently, going to be badass in the near future.

God Tier Jade is pretty awesome; the planet-moving, fourth-wall-creating shenanigans are fantastic and make her suddenly more badass. I'm not sold on God Tier Dave yet; he just looks kind of boring and generic in comparison. And if Jadesprite disappeared when Jade went God Tier, did the same thing happen to Davesprite? He was still on the battlefield when Jade shrunk it, although God Dave didn't appear until much later, so I guess it's yet to be seen.

Also, the two universe-tubes in the Tumor: The Red coincided with the human's universe and the blue with the Midnight Crew/ Troll(???) universe. Do you suppose that Sollux's shades, which were similarly colored and in close-up showed off pictures of spiraling galaxies, meant that Sollux was able to view both universes?

[Locke cole]

I don't think so. Sollux's shades were only used as symbolism. He had no idea who the various "douthebags" on Earth were, for example.

As for god-Dave. First of all, I like his design. No trailing god-hood for him, he's got a freaking CAPE. It really makes him look like a Knight. As for Davesprite, no. I do not think he vanished when Dave when God-Tier. Jadesprite merged with Jade because Jadesprite was prototyped with the body of Jade's dream self. Whereas Davesprite was prototyped with a future realself Dave. See, God-Tiering merges the real and dreamselves, but it seems that God-Tiering can happen even if one self has died and been given the revival kiss. The kiss probably merges the two or something, and in that case, dying on the Quest Bed just does the power-up, since the merging has already happened. That happened to both Dave and Rose. In Jade's case, she never got a kiss because her realself was the one who survived, so she merged with Jadesprite, who is still, very technically, her dreamself.

[Arcanum]

I love Dave's godtier design, though I've seen people hating on it across the internet. The steel-toed boots, the hood in the style of chainmail, the cape, it all just screams "Knight," and that's what I love about it.

As for the Exiles, the universe was being destroyed anyway. They were going to die regardless. The only thing that could have saved them was if they took the transportalizer to its second setting (instead of the setting Jack (and PM) took), but they were clearly going to blow up the capsule. I guess what I'm saying is Jack made their deaths more personal (and thus gave PM a reason to chase after him) instead of their deaths being a random casualty of a dying universe.

Also Locke pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[Specterbane]

Has anyone else noticed that no Derse dreamer has died on their quest bed? Unless you want to count Green Suit Dave but I don't think he died on it. Apparently all the Derse Dreamers have needed to use their dream tombs it seems.

[Locke cole]

I'm starting to think that Derse Dreamers don't have Quest Beds on the Battlefield; only in their planet and in Derse's moon's core. It's been true of Aradia, Dave, and Rose, though I guess it can't be known for sure unless we hear about their Battlefield Quest Beds, or lack thereof.

Wait. I may be mistaken here. It's true that John resurrected on an equivalent Quest Bed on the Battlefield, right?

[Art of Hilt]

Yes, he did.
I think this is all just the way the story panned out and parallels that are just narrative, as opposed to some in-game rule.

[Arcanum]

Doc Scratch said that there were two ways of reaching God Tier. So there are three possibilities that I see. 1) Prospit dreamers have second bed on the battlefield, and Derse dreamers have a second bed within their planet. 2) Everyone has a second bed inside their planet. Or 3) The location of the second bed varies from player to player and relies on the Alpha timeline and what is supposed to happen.

Also something I noticed, if you invert green you get purple, which you get by adding red and blue together. Coincidence?! I think not.

[Locke cole]

Ah, there we go. When I was going through the flash, all I could think was "if only it was blue and yellow, but your explanation makes sense.

So, I made two more Tarot cards using the flash. That's three of 'em from this thing alone. A pretty good haul.

http://ib.skaia.net/image/21144.png
http://ib.skaia.net/image/21145.png

[Revising Ocelot]

Remember this?

"Though we adore HIM we shall never enjoy His beauteous Croak. We spill our blood on acres of black and white so they may cross the yellow yard. At last in Skaia's reflection through broken glass He may find the pond in which He's meant to squat."

And suddenly everything makes sense. Except the yard. I don't think the Prospit ship really represents it despite being the right colour. Genesis Tadpole went plop in the volcano - thus no new universe in the first Kidverse session, so they have to create a new one in the new session, and the broken glass is the 4th wall.



So, I made two more Tarot cards using the flash. That's three of 'em from this thing alone. A pretty good haul.


No Red Miles Tower?

[Mr.Bookworm]

I am surprised no one remembers the yellow yardstick (www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005558) used to define direct authorial impact on the events of the story.

Jade just flew through the fourth wall.

I am guessing these two are related.

[Locke cole]

Gonna get to The Tower later.

Though, I wonder. I could do that, but then I don't think I'd have anywhere to place Eridan. And as funny as it would be for him to be forevver alone, even in this Tarot deck, I dunno if it's the right thing to do.

[Revising Ocelot]

Gonna get to The Tower later.

Though, I wonder. I could do that, but then I don't think I'd have anywhere to place Eridan. And as funny as it would be for him to be forevver alone, even in this Tarot deck, I dunno if it's the right thing to do.

Tch, he's small-time. You don't see Nannasprite getting a card now, do you?



Don't actually go and create a Nannasprite card, please.

[Locke cole]

Hm. I suppose.

I have most of the things that I haven't done yet planned


The Fool: John
The Magician: Rose
The High Priestess: Kanaya or Feferi
The Empress: ?
The Hierophant: Equius
The Lovers: Mom and Dad
Strength: Nepeta
The Hermit: Sollux
Justice: Terezi
The Hanged Man: Tavros
Death: Gamzee
Temperance: Feferi or Kanaya
The Tower: Hopesplosion or Red Miles
The Star: ?
The Sun: Aradia


so, yeah. Of the ones I haven't done yet, most of them have something planned. I'm just not sure about The Empress (Snowman? Or is that too literal?), The Star, and the exact placement of Kanaya and Feferi.

[Revising Ocelot]

Oh, and I figured you out on that TVTropes thread. PM doesn't work as Star. Dream Jade (before the, y'know, death, spritification and dog tier) would have fit, but you already used that, technically.

[Locke cole]

Yeah, that's me. And yeah, I abandoned the idea of PM as The Star. Still tryin' to figure it out.

I don't regret using Jade as The World, though.

Hey, what if I did The Star reversed? And put Eridan in that? It would be kinda fitting, considering what a failure of a Prince of Hope he is.

[rpgdemon]

I have no idea about Tarot Cards, but couldn't the empress be the empress? The troll empress?

[Locke cole]

Ya know, I may just do that. One bit of the symbolism in The Empress is her dominance over life. Actually a lot of the symbolism in The Empress apparently refers to her dominance over various things. Some of the symbolism is too benign at first blush (Mothering, comfort, abundance, etc.) but some of it really does fit her (Power, Health, Desire, Sensuality (though that one's a stretch))

I think it's either her, or Snowman (who was an empress of her own at one point, so there we go).

[Revising Ocelot]

(Mothering, comfort, abundance, etc.)

She's like that to the Psiioniic. In her POV, anyway. He'd probably disagree.


Speaking of the Psiioniic, is Sollux's meteor drive going to finish him off? Taking after his ancestor in that sense, who'd have died a lot sooner were it not for Batterwitch Life powers.

[Locke cole]

Proooooooobably. There was that conversation with Aradia about how the others made it, and that his body would arrive with the others. Then maybe they'll have one of these "funerals" the humans talk about.

Seems like he's gonna die.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Notice, the Genesis Tadpole was in an 8 ball tank. What other 8ball do we know that ends a universe?

Also, I really liked the bit where Terezi tried to point to the beacon for Sollux.

[Loyal]

Yeah, Sollux is dead. That and more explained (http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/11938555890/about-eoa5-part-1) here. (http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/11941710181/about-eoa5-part-2)

[Bard The 5th LW]

Unlike most of the other dead cast though, Sollux went out in a pretty strong moment of glory.

[Revising Ocelot]

Hussie also pointed out that LE abuses women.

Good thing I powerread Problem Sleuth the other day because damn, he has a lot of parellels with Mobster Kingpin.
...I don't think Hussie would be so cruel as to spring a 3000 page long 3rd bossfight on us in Act 7, though.


He could also be a literal pimp. GameBro writer!

[Bard The 5th LW]

LE abuses women, and Scratch likes to play tricks on young girls. They are a creepy pair, those two.

[Kerensky287]

Yeah, Sollux is dead. That and more explained (http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/11938555890/about-eoa5-part-1) here. (http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/11941710181/about-eoa5-part-2)

He did a third part (http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/11960418585/about-eoa5-part-3), too.

There's some seriously interesting stuff here. I already understood most of what happened, but I really, REALLY dig the way he's pulling all these hints and bits of foreshadowing out of the archives and going "See? I've been planning this for a LONG time."

EDIT: I still snicker every time Jack's doom attack (Red Miles) is mentioned in a serious context because its name is so obviously derived from the Black Inches gay porn in Jailbreak.

[Fifthfiend]

...I don't think Hussie would be so cruel as to spring a 3000 page long 3rd bossfight on us in Act 7, though.

There is basically nothing in the evidence that supports this conclusion.

[POS Industries]

There is basically nothing in the evidence that supports this conclusion.
Actually, at this point the evidence points more to Homestuck ending with a 3000-page-long makeout session between DMK and Vriska, at which point Hussie will have harnessed enough rage and tears to power his space ship and return to his home planet.

[BitVyper]

I wonder if any of the previous iteration of trolls could have escaped from their session before/when they scratched it.

[Fifthfiend]

Actually, at this point the evidence points more to Homestuck ending with a 3000-page-long makeout session between DMK and Vriska, at which point Hussie will have harnessed enough rage and tears to power his space ship and return to his home planet.

You left out the part where John dies seven or eight hundred more times.

[POS Industries]

You left out the part where John dies seven or eight hundred more times.
Shh, this is Homestuck. No sense worrying about minor characters like John during the DMK/Vriska make-out extravaganza.

[Ryong]

There's a song on the new album entitled "Do You Remem8er Me", with the art showing Ghost!Vriska watching over John.

I think making out with DMK isn't a priority for Vriska.

[Solid Snake]

There's a song on the new album entitled "Do You Remem8er Me", with the art showing Ghost!Vriska watching over John.


DAMMIT NO NOT THE VRISKA / JOHN SHIP
ANYTHING BUT THE VRISKA / JOHN SHIP
AAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH THE PAIN

[BitVyper]

John/Vriska is the best ship.

[Solid Snake]

John/Vriska is the best ship.

Clearly you come from a bizarro world where 'best' means 'worst'
Or maybe you just want to torture poor John because you despise his superb characterization and you want to see him suffer

[Revising Ocelot]

...and you want to see him suffer

Actually we just like to see YOU suffer.

John/Vriska for life!

[BitVyper]

He and Vriska are fabulous together. That's all there really is to it. This is my 100% honest, unironic opinion. For serious not intended to antagonize at all.

You know, if Lord English weren't basically confirmed male by Doc Scratch, I could actually see quite a few reasons to suspect Kanaya in some way at this point.

[Locke cole]

That song really just seems to be the music to be set to Doomed John and Dead Vriska's little walk in the dreambubble.

Though, really, listening to it, all I can think of is The Lion King.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Ive jokingly seen (and presented!) quite a bit of evidence for Sollux being LE, but I think LE is his own character.

[BitVyper]

He is at the very least, a product of these two sessions, since his MO heavily involves the use of a servant that is entirely dependant on the Green Sun existing. Doc Scratch has also said that his march through paradox space is orderly and accounted for. That, to me, suggests that he is in a very long timeloop, and I suspect that this dual-session is both the beginning and end of it (as I've said before).

I don't know that you could really say anyone IS Lord English, although it's certainly possible someone will become him. However the repetition of "he is already here" while it has an obvious meaning (because of the way Lord English operates through time travel), also pretty heavily suggests that we've seen him in some way already.

[mauve]

John just seems completely unphazed that his sister is suddenly a dog-eared space witch riding atop a golden battleship and plucking entire worlds from the heavens without the slightest effort. Not even the usual John Derp-face at that revelation! I'm guessing he somehow already knew at this point, then?

[POS Industries]

John just seems completely unphazed that his sister is suddenly a dog-eared space witch riding atop a golden battleship and plucking entire worlds from the heavens without the slightest effort. Not even the usual John Derp-face at that revelation! I'm guessing he somehow already knew at this point, then?
It's been a long, difficult birthday for poor John. I can't really imagine him being phased by much at all at this point.

[BitVyper]

He never seems that troubled by anything. I think part of it is how good he is at picking up on subtext, another part being his general openness to just about everything.

[Arcanum]

Well I'm sure after seeing Rose go Grimdark, dogtier Jade isn't that much crazier.

Although now that I think about it, John first saw Rose when she was sleeping, and then their first conversation in person was when she went Grimdark (if it can be called a conversation, heheh). And then he first saw Jade when she was dead (well her dreamself), and now their first conversation in person will be when she's dogtier. And then there's Doomed/Dead John and Vriska. Poor John just can't have a conversation with a normal girl.

[Mr.Bookworm]

My personal guess is that like many other things in Homestuck, Lord English is a self-fulfilling timey wimey ball shit thing. He enters the universe after it's destruction and proceeds from there, because he did not exist until the destruction of the universe or thereabouts.

If you take that wild guess as true, it's likely that the person who will be Lord English is one of the characters we've already seen in Homestuck, moving towards his or her destiny.

My personal guess is WV, as he still clearly has some role to play in the story left (I can't think of why PM dragged his body along if he didn't). The line of comments he makes towards Aradia's ancestor up until she meets him face to face, are, word for word, almost the exact same thing initially said to John. Either Hussie is just fucking with the fandom or there's something going on there.

You know, if Lord English weren't basically confirmed male by Doc Scratch, I could actually see quite a few reasons to suspect Kanaya in some way at this point.Doc Scratch also played the entire cast like a fiddle into causing the current mess. I don't think his word is trustworthy.

It is also quite possible that Scratch doesn't actually know that much about English. All we know is that English "employed" Scratch.

[BitVyper]

Yeah, I noticed that as well. WV runs into pretty much the same problems as everyone else though, so I can't seem him as being more or less likely a candidate.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Maybe WV is on a quest to destroy every universe to kill every occurrence of Jack Noir?

[BitVyper]

Doc Scratch also played the entire cast like a fiddle into causing the current mess. I don't think his word is trustworthy.

It is also quite possible that Scratch doesn't actually know that much about English. All we know is that English "employed" Scratch.

He's never directly lied, however; just made legitimately true information available that served to perpetuate a grander misconception. It's possible that he doesn't know much about Lord English, but I don't think that he would be as descriptive as he has been if he didn't know at least those things. In contrast, when he was telling us about the dead timeline where Vriska fought Jack, he was very clear that everything he said was mere supposition.

[Loyal]

Or maybe you just want to torture poor John because you despise his superb characterization and you want to see him suffer

Maybe I missed or forgot something (entirely probable and even likely), but I thought John's entire characterization was "Happy-go-lucky goodguy who doesn't afraid or get fazed much at all by anything."

[Bard The 5th LW]

I imagine all of this happening to him in the span of one 24 hours has sorta numbed him to quite a bit.

[Locke cole]

So, guys, you been following the follow-up info on Hussie's tumblr (mspandrew.tumblr.com)? Some pretty informative stuff going down.

Weirdly, the bit of info that sticks with me the most is the name of John's new hammer: The Pop-o-Matic Vrillyhoo Hammer.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I know how this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY6cUdSRlYU) really doesn't have any relation, but I still can't get over the title and content.

John clearly watched it for instructions beforehand.

[Locke cole]

Alright, Ocelot.

You wanted Jack as The Tower?

http://ib.skaia.net/image/21345.png

I considered using this variant (http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/HomestuckTarotTheTower2_5734.jpg), but I went with the former, because it was so much more badass and sinister-looking. Anyone who knows anything about Bec Noir will know that anything he does fits the card, to be honest.

[Arcanum]

Here is my projected date for the first page of Act 6.

11/11/11

So no Homestuck until then, but really what's another two weeks of waiting after all the waiting we've been through. Plus I'm cool with re-watching [S]Cascade for two weeks.

Although he also said

I WILL however plan to post a short intermission between now and then. I will let you know when this date approaches.

So we won't have to go the two weeks cold turkey.

[BitVyper]

Oh good, time for the Squiddle chapter.

[Arcanum]

Oh good, time for the Squiddle chapter.

Yessssssssss

[BitVyper]

I was just noticing something; in the "final conversation" (the first that we see) between Doc Scratch and Vriska, he says:

I'll say one last thing.
Though the magnitude of the ensuing destruction resulting directly from your actions will be neither possible or necessary for you to fathom, there nevertheless ought to be a silver lining.
The only question is whether you will live long enough to see it.
I'm not a gambling man.
But if I was, I wouldn't bet on it.
Goodbye.

Why wasn't he sure whether Vriska would die before this point or not? He certainly seemed certain when he narrated the scene of her death. There's been no suggestion of anything to impede his omniscience in this area. Usually the black spots in his knowledge are noted pretty pointedly. He could be being deliberately vague, but the only other time he's talked about "not being a gambling man" has been when he actually did not know the outcome of a situation.

Not sure what, if anything, to make of it. It just seems a bit strange.

Edit: You know, Lord English's interaction with Aradiancestor paralleling WV's interaction with John could also suggest that he is someone making use of SBURB's tech to interact with universes in the same way Exiles interact with players. This also works when you consider that Lord English enters a universe after the apocalypse, just like Exiles arrive on the planet after ITS apocalypse. Of course, we've already got narrative word that Lord English can travel through time, but that sort of interaction may still enter into it.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Why wasn't he sure whether Vriska would die before this point or not? He certainly seemed certain when he narrated the scene of her death. There's been no suggestion of anything to impede his omniscience in this area. Usually the black spots in his knowledge are noted pretty pointedly. He could be being deliberately vague, but the only other time he's talked about "not being a gambling man" has been when he actually did not know the outcome of a situation.

Not sure what, if anything, to make of it. It just seems a bit strange.

I'm pretty sure he's referencing the split we already saw. In one branch, Terezi doesn't stab Vriska and so she survives because Jack just flies off and murders everyone else. In the one that actually happened, Terezi went all Mind-powers and foresaw the other branch, and so went through with the stabbing.

Alternatively, he's just fucking with Vriska, since nothing in that conversation seems like an outright lie. Sort of like how he gave Rose 50/50 odds on ascending to the God Tiers, despite pretty clearly knowing how all of that was going to play out.

Edit: You know, Lord English's interaction with Aradiancestor paralleling WV's interaction with John could also suggest that he is someone making use of SBURB's tech to interact with universes in the same way Exiles interact with players. This also works when you consider that Lord English enters a universe after the apocalypse, just like Exiles arrive on the planet after ITS apocalypse. Of course, we've already got narrative word that Lord English can travel through time, but that sort of interaction may still enter into it. Hm. That is an interesting point. One thing I haven't ever really seen mentioned in Homestuck discussion is the obvious (probably too obvious) question of where exactly Sburb/Sgrub came from.

We know that the ultimate purpose of Sburb is to create universes and that Lord English (probably) eats universes. We also know that Lord English is ALREADY HERE. So it seems pretty likely that LE created Sburb.

So maybe the technology is similar? Although the similarity there would be between WV using a panel on one of the capsule things, not the tech of Sburb itself.

Gah, if Hussie can resolve every single thread still hanging in Homestuck, he deserves a goddamn medal.

[BitVyper]

I was thinking that too; that he might cultivate universes for culling. Dunno though. At any rate, I'd bet on it all coming to be as a result of this dual session.

[Arcanum]

Lord English is actually an interdimensional chef on a quest to find the most delicious frog legs in existence. Calling it now.

[Locke cole]

The best frog legs in existence are the frog legs of existence.

[BitVyper]

Well one thing we do know is that he must be very tall. And the only article of clothing we've seen is his coat. Maybe what he's been looking for all this time were PANTS tall enough to fit his form. The tallest of tallpants.

[Arcanum]

The very same pants that FedoraFreak crafted. And then we will have the final showdown of Lord English VS Godtier FedoraFreak.

[Dracorion]

You know, if you made Cal a few times bigger the coat would probably fit him very well.

[BitVyper]

Yeah, Cal's another possibility, especially since he's very notably still in the story at this point despite his seeming purpose having been served.

[Locke cole]

http://ib.skaia.net/image/21507.png

[Revising Ocelot]

Tsk Locke, you should stop listening to me. You might make me start thinking that I'm not completely full of bad ideas.

[Locke cole]

Heh.

You know, doing The Empress made me remember the first one I did, The Emperor (http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/HomestuckTarotEmperor_3066.jpg).

Aside from adding the now-standard border, I'm wondering if I should redo that one. It seems a little too edit-crazy to me, looking back on it now...

[Revising Ocelot]

Getting Referral Denied on that and another link you posted a while back.

EDIT: Ouch, pixelisation.

[Locke cole]

Gragh. Right.

Either select the URL and hit enter, or check out This link instead (http://ib.skaia.net/image/2749.jpg).

[Specterbane]

Heh, I don't know much of Tarot, but with that Empress you could use this Emperor (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005960) if you redo it.

[BitVyper]

Sollux really needs to be the Hanged Man.

[Locke cole]

I want to use all the Trolls and Kids, to be honest, so I want to keep Karkat as The Emperor, I think.

Argh... Sollux as The Hanged Man. For the longest time, I've thought of him as the perfect fit for The Hermit (Introspection, silence, seclusion, isolation, distance). But he just has to pull the self-sacrifice thing in such a big way when I didn't expect it. Sadly, that would take away Tavros's position (he was going to be The Hanged Man because of the "surrendering, passivity and giving up" angle.

In other news, I got another one.

http://ib.skaia.net/image/21538.png

[Pip Boy]

Has there been any word on how long we'll have to wait before regular updates resume?

EDIT: Derp.

[Flarecobra]

*Points to the MSPA front page*

It's right there.

[Arcanum]

So I've been listening to Scourge Sisters (http://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/scourge-sisters) on repeat for about an hour now, and it's still awesome. Probably one of my favorite tracks on the new album.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Im pretty much in love with Flare and Davesprite.

[Loyal]

Im pretty much in love with Flare and Davesprite.She's a pretty cool poster, and Davesprite's just aces, but I'm not sure this is the best time or place to be declaring things like those.

[Aldurin]

The track Flare is the shit.

Totally the shit.

[Flarecobra]

Im pretty much in love with Flare and Davesprite.

WE ARE NOT A VALID SHIPPING PAIR!

[Ecks]

Yes you are, Flare.

Everybody x EVERYTHING is ALWAYS a valid shipping pair.

[Flarecobra]

So TokenxJoey is valid then, for example?

[Arhra]

I am just posting to say I finally realised 'DRAW, SPADES' is another playing card related pun.

I am perceptive, hurr hurr!

[Revising Ocelot]

WE ARE NOT A VALID SHIPPING PAIR!

Flare x Snowman, tbh.

[Aldurin]

WE ARE NOT A VALID SHIPPING PAIR!

The rest of the forum agrees to disagree with you.

[Pip Boy]

Theres always SnowmanxFlarexSpades, but Flare might just feel like a third wheel at that point.

[Marc v4.0]

FlarexDreamFlare

[Fifthfiend]

ButtzxFartz

[Geminex]

Fifth <3< Karkat

[Revising Ocelot]

We need* a NPF Shipping Thread.





Actually we don't, but that's irrelevant.

[rpgdemon]

This is just getting weird now.

[Specterbane]

Now? This is just getting weird "Now"? Where have you been rpg?

[Loyal]

Just leaving this here. (http://wariofan63.tumblr.com/post/12051053503/homestuck-minus-kanaya)

[rpgdemon]

Now? This is just getting weird "Now"? Where have you been rpg?

The thread, I mean.

[POS Industries]

OH HOLY SHITCOCKS YOU GUYS IT'S TIME FOR...

BETWEEN-ACT HIATUS FAN THEORIZIN

So it occurred to me that, while we know the basic histories of Nanna and Grandpa's arrival on Earth and the paths their lives took them on, we've never really been given similar histories for Mom and Bro. Of course, it's entirely possible that their lives up to finding Rose and Dave are simply unimportant. On the other hand, this is fucking Homestuck. Even Jade's narcolepsy was given an explanation as the result of deliberate actions by another character. Shit that we have been under the impression was completely unimportant time and again has ended up being an actual thing that was totally important. And, as we've been shown by the points in time that the trolls' ancestors arrived, such factors are of grave importance.

The ancestors and guardians were sent to places key to their roles in influencing their sessions' players.

Nanna and Grandpa both landed in Sassacre's yard, the latter's arrival resulting in the good Colonel's death and remanding the two into the care of Sassacre's wife, Betty Crocker, herself being the Troll Empress sent by Doc Scratch on a mission to guide the lives of the guardians in such a way that would eventually result in the kids being raised in ways that would ultimately result in them causing the rise of Jack Noir. The two were also made increasingly aware of the coming of Sburb and their roles in it. Grandpa was able to live long enough to take an active role and given the means to do so via inheriting Crocker's corporate empire, whereas Nanna ultimate fate prohibited her from doing much more than preparing her son to teach John everything she would have were she have been alive to do so.

Mom and Bro, however, landed many years later. However, they too were informed and prepared for Sburb, Mom even appearing to work for a company responsible in some way for its development. This presents two potential "parents," for all intents and purposes, to have adopted them. The first is Grandpa, who at that point was likely in the initial stages of his preparations for time-traveling shenanigans involving the game. However, neither of their personalities seem all that consistent with someone who would been raised under the care of a Teddy Rooseveltian badass such as himself, nor familiarity with him, as the complete lack of interaction between himself and Mom during their shared scene in [S] Descend seems to demonstrate.

The other possibility is Her Imperious Condescension, which strikes me as more likely. While Nanna and Grandpa at least had the posthumous positive fatherly influence of Colonel Sassacre to guide them to perseverance against the abusive parentage of a psychotic alien overlord, the younger guardians' personalities seem more consistent with the trauma of being cared for by the Condesce alone.

Granted, it's hard to say for sure here how much is nurture versus nature, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility that they were raised in such ways that the more negative aspects of their personalities would develop in the ways they had. Neither is particularly capable of forging a healthy emotional connection with their own kids, and each has developed their own unique personal issues that have further crippled them in this regard. Bro is something of a slave to his own sexual fetishes without any effort to try to try to hide it beyond the thin veil of "satirical irony" and, while her need to escape into alcohol is certainly no help, Mom seems to have been raised in such a way that she has no idea how to believably communicate the very sincere love and admiration she has for her daughter. In fact, her best attempts come off as a twisted parody of a doting mother and homemaker, thus further driving the wedge between her and Rose.

Such displays could as well be a form of overcompensation for the affection she never received from her won evil extraterrestrial mother, despite her every hypothetical effort to earn it, perhaps even leading her into the employ of a company once owned by the Condesce herself. Bro, on the other hand, may have taken a similar route as Grandpa in dealing with being raised by the Condesce, by escaping to a life as a rapping ventriloquist roof ninja in Houston. He would have had just enough information to fulfill his destiny in regard to raising Dave and preparing him for Sburb, which seems to have been all he needed.

This is, of course, purely speculation without a whole lot of evidence to support it outside of taking a look at what happened with Nanna and Grandpa and comparing it to how Mom and Bro turned out, but it's not outside the realm of probability. After all, we know that the Condesce was on Earth at least into the latter end of the last decade (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005928), and it's doubtful she was just sitting on her hump doing fuckall that whole time.

[Bard The 5th LW]

The condece could possibly be alive even in the Exile's era (although not anymore now that the Universe was destroyed). It DOES sorta beg the question of what she may have been doing.

It really depends on what becomes of LE. If LE remains a behind the scenes Villain, and we don't get a full bead on him, then it seems likely that we won't see much more of HIC. I doubt Hussie would seriously leave that plot thread closed though, seeing all of the other plot threads he explored which weren't nearly as relevant as Lord Fucking English destroyer of worlds and master of all time.

[POS Industries]

I would say that LE will probably find himself as the "final boss" of the story, as even Jack has long since been shown to be another pawn in the grander scheme as opposed to the primary villain, and his luck has pretty effectively run out as of [S] Cascade. PM is on equal footing with him, Jade is more powerful, and the other god tier players aren't exactly far behind. Dave and Aradia have the means to contain him, Rose has the potential combined powerset of both Vriska (who was shown to be potentially able to defeat him singlehandedly) and Terezi (who killed Vriska singlehandedly) at her disposal, and he hasn't been able to put John down permanently yet.

Jack is old and busted, Lord English is the new hotness.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Yeah at this point I'd wager that the plot needs LE to keep a conflict seeing as how powerful Jade is right now.

[Kerensky287]

I find it funny that at one point, Hussie mentioned that he thought Jade came off as a little Mary Sue-ish, what with her omnipotent doggy daddy, her futuretech gizmos, and her plot device pseudo-prophetic powers. He worked hard to mitigate that, and for a while there I'd actually have argued that Jade was by far the weakest character.

Now she's part dog, with Green Sun powers on top of her God Tier (lol, dog tier) powers, and it seems to me that, since her dreamself was prototyped, she may now have access to sprite knowledge as well - that is, details on how the game world works. Not that that matters much anymore, now that the session has been reset, but it could come into play at some point.

She also has the coolest outfit.

I'm just waiting to see how she gets toned down, or what drawbacks she has; Hussie seems pretty aware of where his characters are, power-level/Sueitude-wise, so I suspect that he'll scale her back a little.

Lord English is absolutely going to show up very soon, though. I guarantee it. The Troll universe is destroyed. English has been created. He is already here, as they say.

[POS Industries]

Also, rereading the archives for the first time ever has shown me so many things that I had completely forgotten about and put them into greater context.

Like how right now I'm thinking the Condesce raised Mom in the Skaianet lab. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002805)

You know, little things like that.

EDIT: I mean, shit, even without the involvement of alien monarchs, "Mom was raised in a lab" explains a fucking lot.

[Fifthfiend]

I'm just waiting to see how she gets toned down, or what drawbacks she has; Hussie seems pretty aware of where his characters are, power-level/Sueitude-wise, so I suspect that he'll scale her back a little.

He'll just compensate by giving all the other characters new power levels.

[POS Industries]

He'll just compensate by giving all the other characters new power levels.
Except for Karkat.

[Arcanum]

He'll just compensate by giving all the other characters new power levels.

Godtier SSJ4 Fusion.

[Fifthfiend]

Except for Karkat.

Karkat is basically Naruto.

[Locke cole]

Well, she's currently Godtier/Bec/Sprite-powered. Didn't Aradia lose her frogsprite features when their game ended? So it may be that Jade will lose her game-knowledge when the session's Scratch takes. And, of course, her Bec-powers will fade if they ever do succeed in destroying the Green Motherfucking Sun, though I dunno how they're going to do that, now.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I don't see why they would destroy the Green Sun, even if they were capable of doing that. Jack looks like he's going to stop being a problem soon, one way or another. Scratch is apparently a non-threat now with the entry of Lord English. Unless PM just completely flips her shit, she's not a problem. Lord English, who's looking like the Big Bad, doesn't run off the Green Sun as far as we know.

The only reason they were attempting to destroy it in the first place is because Scratch told them it would neutralize Jack's powers (lying by omission the entire time). Which is no longer necessary.

Now that all of the Green Sun-powered baddies are gone, they wouldn't be doing much more by destroying it than screwing over the most powerful people on their side.

Tangential note: I wonder if the trolls could have beaten Jack if they had actually worked together. God Tier Aradia was able to freeze Jack, God Tier Vriska was able to challenge him in a fight, and the other 10 were presumably at the top of their Echeladders.

If they had actually had a go at Jack after he destroyed Derse and God Tiered Aradia, instead of all the other shenanigans (yes yes stable time loops blah blah), I'm guessing they could have killed him or at least driven him off.

Of course that assumes the trolls could actually work together for more than five seconds without Karkat yelling at them, soooooooooooooo no.

[Locke cole]

http://ib.skaia.net/image/21923.png

That one was a 5-minute no-brainer one, though...

[BitVyper]

I'm reasonably certain the Green Sun is a necessary aspect of Creation. I've never really expected it to get destroyed in any kind of permanent sense.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Im totally expecting Act 6 to start off Like Act 1 and Hivebent did up until the point where J gets into The Medium, where suddenly John and Jade rip though Space on their golden ship and are just like "We got this, don't worry," and beat the game in like 1 hour.

[POS Industries]

Im totally expecting Act 6 to start off Like Act 1 and Hivebent did up until the point where J gets into The Medium, where suddenly John and Jade rip though Space on their golden ship and are just like "We got this, don't worry," and beat the game in like 1 hour.
Either that or, if we factor in the possibility that the resetting of the universe results in them essentially arriving at the same moment in the new timeline that they left their old one, John and Jade might find themselves face to face with four 13-year-old god tier versions of their guardians, assuming that they proved themselves as able of tearing through the levels as quickly as the kids were.

Given the availability of the two latest sets of god tier merchandise, I wouldn't exactly be surprised if Mom and Nanna weren't the heroes of Mind and Heart, respectively.

Also: We're all pretty certain that Lil' Cal is somehow Lord English at this point, right? Like, I don't have any idea how he's going to eventually end up fitting in the Cairo Overcoat but it feels like the story's been pretty much screaming that he is for a while now.

[BitVyper]

Yeah, that seems to be the most reasonable identity for LE. There's still some things that kind of throw it for me, but it seems likely, and none of my issues are particularly insurmountable. One thing I've been thinking though - everyone has some kind of main colour association. While Lord English is heavily associated with green, in his text and on his coat, he flashes through the entire spectrum. It seems like that should mean something.

[rpgdemon]

Question: The Scratched trolls ended up switching place with their ancestors, right?

What if the Scratched kids needed to be scratched, in order to switch with their ancestors? And without them, there are no guardians for the new set of kids?

[POS Industries]

Question: The Scratched trolls ended up switching place with their ancestors, right?

What if the Scratched kids needed to be scratched, in order to switch with their ancestors? And without them, there are no guardians for the new set of kids?
I somewhat doubt that's an issue, because technically speaking the guardians didn't get scratched, either. Their corpses are all still littered about the planets Jade shrunk down and took with her through the fourth wall.

Furthermore, we already know that there's at least a Jade after the reset that serves as the guardian for J, taking the role of his grandmother, so it stands to reason that the full set of ectobiology babies for that session was created and distributed to the proper points on their timeline.

[BitVyper]

Their corpses are all still littered about the planets Jade shrunk down and took with her through the fourth wall.

Not Grandpa Harley. We haven't seen it yet, but at some point, he must have gone through one of the portals and into the past, so that he could die and be stuffed by Jade.

Edit: It might be possible that the new session has a reverse of whatever glitch the original troll session had, and that they aren't actually spawned in their own session, effectively being the ectobabies spawned from this one. Not sure how that would work, but I'm not really sure how it worked on the troll side of things either.

[POS Industries]

Not Grandpa Harley. We haven't seen it yet, but at some point, he must have gone through one of the portals and into the past, so that he could die and be stuffed by Jade.
Hahaha, I guess he did get thrown out into space by Bec, didn't he?

Well, regardless, my second point still stands. We already know there's a Jade guardian in that universe, so it doesn't look like there's an issue here.

[BitVyper]

No no, like remember? Grandpa Harley, unstuffed and alive, is (was) in this session. It takes place earlier in his timeline than his own death.

But yeah no, doesn't interfere with your point.

[POS Industries]

No, I know what you're talking about, but we can already safely infer that he made it out of the session to his own point on the kids' universe's timeline before the reset due to A) his fate already having been sealed and B) Jack never catching his scent and hunting him down.

I had just forgotten that his stuffed corpse never entered the Medium.

[BitVyper]

Yeah, I was just saying that he's not with them, since he has to have made it through a portal. We just know pretty much none of his in-session timeline so far. Or how he got in at all, for that matter.

[POS Industries]

Apparently the man was just a master transportalizer. Jack and PM both proved that such a feat can be done, so it stands to reason Grandpa moved back and forth the same way.

It's not like he didn't have a heaping helping of uranium lying around all over his house or anything.

[BitVyper]

Could be. Of course, he also had a giant spaceship there with him.

[Malek]

I think his corpse is in the medium, since it was in Jade's house which entered with her into the medium.

[POS Industries]

I think his corpse is in the medium, since it was in Jade's house which entered with her into the medium.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/SPAAAAAAAAAAAACE.gif

[Arcanum]

Best use of that meme so far.

Anyway, as far as the Scratch goes, we know it resets the universe to the factory settings, i.e. right to the absolute start, but some things are changed in order for the eventual Sburb session to progress differently. This is easily inferred from the fact that Pre-Scratch Troll Universe didn't have Doc Scratch, who as a First Guardian was around for billions of years in the Post-Scratch Troll universe.

So it doesn't matter that the kids escape the temporal energy, since when the Scratch is done doing its thing the universe will be at the very beginning of its timeline and the kids won't exist for billions of years. The universe will run its due course, including whatever alterations the Scratch caused, but eventually the kids will be paradox-cloned and sent back in time.

[rpgdemon]

The thing is though, the ancestors started remembering who they were, pre-Scratch. This, to me, implies that they were the same people, or at least were in some way the same.

[Bard The 5th LW]

The ancestors did have the same powers from their old SGrub game as well, as seen with the Condesce, Darkleer, and possibly the Summoner (God tier wings).

Still, it seems to me that the person doesn't need to be there to be reset.

[Arcanum]

Actually it was only The Sufferer who started to remember, and we have no idea how or why. For all we know, him remembering could have been an intended effect of the Scratch in order for the Universe to proceed down its Alpha Timeline.

edit--
The ancestors did have the same powers from their old SGrub game as well, as seen with the Condesce, Darkleer, and possibly the Summoner (God tier wings).

What powers do the Condesce and Darkleer have that they would have gotten from the game?

[rpgdemon]

Does that mean we'll have two sets of kids now, who lived the same life/remember their scratched past?

Or, actually, theory. The kids have to actually grow up and live in the Scratched universe, before being the guardians.

The reason I say so is because the scratched kids, if they remember their past, would remember the scratch and then leaving the scratch and getting out. But that never would have happened for them, since they got reset and blaugh it's probably not going to be mentioned since it doesn't really make sense.

I guess they could have the memories of the other kids, despite the other kids having not lived out all the memories yet.

[Arcanum]

Does that mean we'll have two sets of kids now, who lived the same life/remember their scratched past?

Or, actually, theory. The kids have to actually grow up and live in the Scratched universe, before being the guardians.

The reason I say so is because the scratched kids, if they remember their past, would remember the scratch and then leaving the scratch and getting out. But that never would have happened for them, since they got reset and blaugh it's probably not going to be mentioned since it doesn't really make sense.

I guess they could have the memories of the other kids, despite the other kids having not lived out all the memories yet.

Your post confuses me, but yes there will be two sets of kids. Scratch!Kids (who have no recollection of events before the Scratch) and Godtier!Kids (who escaped the Scratch). But nobody post-Scratch will have any memories from before the Scratch, unless there's some exception that shows up like the Sufferer.

[Bard The 5th LW]

What powers do the Condesce and Darkleer have that they would have gotten from the game?

There was a void around Darkleer that allowed him to evade Scratch's omniscience, and the Condece was capable of extending The Helmsman's Lifespan with only a touch. Most of the other ancestor actually relate to the player's titles as well in one way or another. Mindfang was a pirate (a trhief) who was very lucky, Dualscar was royal who stole the hope of children, The Disciple was made a rogue because of who she loves, etc.

[Arcanum]

I'd say those are more parallels to the Troll's titles, resulting from psychic abilities (or chance, in the Disciple's case), than clear indication that they received these powers from their pre-scratch game. You're also assuming the Ancestors would have the same titles as their descendants in their pre-scratch game.

[rpgdemon]

What I mean is, if one of the scratched kids starts remembering, since the original kids are still their, they will remember things that are yet to happen for the kids, and things that are yet to happen in their universe.

[Bard The 5th LW]

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003106

Can't overthink this time stuff.
TG: the thing with time travel is
TG: you cant overthink it
TG: just roll with it and see what happens
TG: and above all try not to do anything retarded

[Marc v4.0]

Fairly certain it was mentioned that the life-extending power of the Condece was something that the Highest Bloods could just do.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Where? Seemed like something only she could do. The other Bluebloods could live a long ass time, but nothing about actually sharing or giving longer lifespans to others.

[Arcanum]

What I mean is, if one of the scratched kids starts remembering, since the original kids are still their, they will remember things that are yet to happen for the kids, and things that are yet to happen in their universe.

But the only way they could remember is if the memories of their pre-scratch lives were combined with their post-scratch lives, and the only way that could happen is if they were affected by the scratch, which they weren't. The kids escaped the temporal upheaval so there is no chance that Scratch!Kids could remember anything.

And actually, Doc Scratch said "Since this timeline will undergo such a violent upheaval, such a merger of memory cannot happen." despite knowing that the Sufferer started to remember his pre-scratch life. This leads me to believe even more that the Sufferer regaining his memories was either specifically allowed by the Scratch (so that the Universe would continue on its Alpha timeline) or was caused by some meddling (either by Doc Scratch, or LE, or another of LE's servants) to ensure the proper flow of history.

[Marc v4.0]

Hm, looking back on it, I must have just assumed it or misdisremembered

[BitVyper]

No yeah, a lot of the powers we've seen the trolls use seem to be largely their caste powers. Hussie actually stated this on his old formspring at one point too. Of course, having those powers may relate to why someone has the particular role they have. Obviously Gamzee's caste, for instance, are pretty well suited to the role he played. I use Gamzee as an example because he's who Hussie was talking about when he made that statement. Psychic ability, we know, is common among trolls, yet Tavros' particular ability related to his role extremely well.

Trolls in general seem to have caste-related super powers. As for the role-related superpowers, it's kind of hard to say if those are granted by the game or if the powers are part of why you get the role. Timeloop paradox clones and all, so both answers could be true. John certainly demonstrated the breath power in terms of his charisma and being pretty convincing, helping his friends develop their own voices/talents well before the session ever started.

[BitVyper]

Wait, assuming Jade's "grandson" IS actually post-scratch Grandpa, how did he get Ahab's Crosshairs? There's no reason it should be in the universe after the scratch. If it's still on Jade's world (she said she'd throw it away somewhere), it's with them, and if it fell through a portal back to Earth, then it should have been scratched out of existence. There must be some pretty extensive time shenanigans going on with all the items Liv Tyler has.

[Arcanum]

Well Jade and John escaped into the post-scratch session (according to the Skaian prophecy), and we have no way of knowing when in J's timeline he was corresponding with Jade. Right now all the signs are pointing towards J contacting Jade because John and Jade showed up in his session and making him aware of the need to complete the time loop.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Ahab's crosshar were discarded by Jade on LOFAF. They'll presumably go back to get them later.

Also, Echidna is still around, so they can likelyu get a second pair of quills from her, or just retrieve the other from Beat Mesa and shrink them down. Gamzee has an unaltered Warhammer of Zillyhoo, and Dave has the halved Royal Deringer. SO the stage is pretty much set for the J to get all of those weapons.

[POS Industries]

Your name is JACK HARLEY.

You have a wide variety of INTERESTS, most revolving around your hobby as a YOUTH ADVENTURER. You are fascinated by the contents of UNEARTHED TOMBS, the thrilling tales of ANCIENT MUMMIES, the sporting challenge of BIG GAME HUNTING, the mysterious depths of UNEXPLORED CAVES, and the stunning craftmanship displayed by SUITS OF ARMOR. Your room is filled with TROPHIES of your ADVENTUROUS EXPLOITS, the DEADLY FIREARMS you used to procure them, posters from your favorite CINEMATIC SLAPSTICK COMEDIES that you know are totally great despite how bad everyone else says they are, and photographs of BEAUTIES that have spent the precise amount of time bleached by the sun in hair salon windows.

You live with your NANNA and her FAITHFUL CANINE COMPANION, both of whom are expertly able to ensure your continued safety even on the most excitingly dangerous adventures, thanks in no small part to your Nanna's stunning intuition, a talent which almost seems to border on PROGNOSTICATION. She's not too bad a shot with a deadly firearm, either.


I've got the outlines for Mom and Bro figured out, but not yet written. Mostly because I listed them after Nanna, who is proving difficult to come up with since so much of her characterization is based on the influences of Betty Crocker and Colonel Sassacre and a version of her raised by neither leaves little to with which to work.

Lord help me I think this qualifies as fanfiction. Someone please kill me.

[Marc v4.0]

Your name is JACK HARLEY.

You have a wide variety of INTERESTS, most revolving around your hobby as a YOUTH ADVENTURER. You are fascinated by the contents of UNEARTHED TOMBS, the thrilling tales of ANCIENT MUMMIES, the sporting challenge of BIG GAME HUNTING, the mysterious depths of UNEXPLORED CAVES, and the stunning craftmanship displayed by SUITS OF ARMOR. Your room is filled with TROPHIES of your ADVENTUROUS EXPLOITS, the DEADLY FIREARMS you used to procure them, posters from your favorite CINEMATIC SLAPSTICK COMEDIES that you know are totally great despite how bad everyone else says they are, and photographs of BEAUTIES that have spent the precise amount of time bleached by the sun in hair salon windows.

You live with your NANNA and her FAITHFUL CANINE COMPANION, both of whom are expertly able to ensure your continued safety even on the most excitingly dangerous adventures, thanks in no small part to your Nanna's stunning intuition, a talent which almost seems to border on PROGNOSTICATION. She's not too bad a shot with a deadly firearm, either.


I've got the outlines for Mom and Bro figured out, but not yet written. Mostly because I listed them after Nanna, who is proving difficult to come up with since so much of her characterization is based on the influences of Betty Crocker and Colonel Sassacre and a version of her raised by neither leaves little to with which to work.

Lord help me I think this qualifies as fanfiction. Someone please kill me.

Time to take Ol' POS out behind the woodshed and put him down

[Aldurin]

Time to take Ol' POS out behind the woodshed and put him down

We already did that, but the case was already so severe that this is what was left of him after the corpse stopped rotting.

[POS Industries]

I, too, am ashamed. MEANWHILE:

Also, rereading the archives for the first time ever has shown me so many things that I had completely forgotten about and put them into greater context.

Like how right now I'm thinking the Condesce raised Mom in the Skaianet lab. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002805)

You know, little things like that.

EDIT: I mean, shit, even without the involvement of alien monarchs, "Mom was raised in a lab" explains a fucking lot.
I am officially convinced this hinges entirely on the involvement of alien monarchs. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005935)

[Mr.Bookworm]

I, too, am ashamed. MEANWHILE:


I am officially convinced this hinges entirely on the involvement of alien monarchs. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005935)

Wait holy shit that overcoat is draped over the fourth wall Jade is about to go smashing right the fuck through. Can't believe I forgot about that.

I am guessing there will be a gag panel of Jade attempting to wear the overcoat. And then if Hussie stops fucking around (unlikely) Lord English will show up to retrieve his coat.

[POS Industries]

That was something Hussie mentioned on his Tumblr (http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/11975241895/about-eoa5-part-4), actually. Jade and John will be in Hussie's room for roughly a nanosecond at their current speed and, if you'll notice, their point of entry on the fourth wall is straight through one of the coattails.

That's pretty much the likely extent of their shenanigans in that room.

[IHateMakingNames]

He also said that the coat might not be there now that LE has arrived and probably wants his coat.

[BitVyper]

It occurs to me that this reboot could be really bad news for John's dad. Being the only one who isn't a paradox clone, a reboot could potentially wipe out his existence entirely (especially when you consider that there's no way Nanna could possibly have a child with whoever dad's dad is in the new timeline). Since I don't see that remaining unaddressed, I'm back to figuring his status as a non-clone is going to have some importance.

[Ecks]

He also said that the coat might not be there now that LE has arrived and probably wants his coat.

He may have already retrieved it off panel

[BitVyper]

What if Jade and John snag the coat, and drag it through to the troll universe?

I can't believe I just realised that Cal was born in the dreams of the Knight of Time and repaired by the Sylph of Space.

[Ecks]

So wait a sec... Lil Cal was a dream?

I really should try not to overthink this time shit, because now I suddenly don't understand anything.

[POS Industries]

So wait a sec... Lil Cal was a dream?

I really should try not to overthink this time shit, because now I suddenly don't understand anything.
Lil' Cal was a figment in Dave's dreams created by Gamzee's powers, which he did under the influence of whispers from... Lil' Cal.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Those whispers may have just been the crazy talking, we aren't totally sure.

[POS Industries]

Those whispers may have just been the crazy talking, we aren't totally sure.
Except that Dave said that Lil' Cal talked to him in his dreams, as well.

[BitVyper]

Kanaya's the Sylph.

Yes. I know. Kanaya is who I am talking about.

Did Jade repair Cal while I wasn't looking?

[Locke cole]

Li'l Cal was alive in the dream world. And then it turned out that, through time shenanigans, Dream Cal is real Cal.

So, there was only one Lil' Cal, and it's quite possible that Gamzee raged him into existence.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Well, Cal seemed to be distinctly NOT ALIVE when in Bro's possession, so I assumed Dave was actually making Cal move like that with his own dream powers acting against him. Like, similar to how Jade grew extra arms, only instead a puppet comes to life and talks to you.

[POS Industries]

So your argument is that, in Homestuck, two characters in two separate universes having the same experience with the same puppet, a puppet which is the ectobiological progenitor of a third character that has been the key manipulator of basically everything that has occurred throughout the story, are merely unrelated instances of their own psychological instability.

In Homestuck.

[Bard The 5th LW]

maybe

e:pretty sure gamzee still had to jump around to move cal

[Marc v4.0]

Like, similar to how Jade grew extra arms, only instead a puppet comes to life and talks to you.

That is the shittiest power ever

[Arcanum]

Lil' Cal was a figment in Dave's dreams created by Gamzee's powers, which he did under the influence of whispers from... Lil' Cal.

Actually I think Gamzee was acting under the instructions of Doc Scratch (and if Gamzee knew Lil Cal was the ecto-biological father of Doc Scratch then it would still make sense when he said Lil Cal told him to do those things).

The reason I think it's Doc Scratch is because of http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j122/arcanum_DF/gamz.png (from [S]Cascade)

[Locke cole]

Maybe it's a reverse Calvin-And-Hobbes.

Like, Cal's a lifeless puppet whenever Bro's around.

It's kind of disturbing.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Well if Gamzee was operating under the instruction of Doc Scratch, then he was technically operating under the instruction of Lil Cal.

[Ecks]

Okay, I suddenly understand everything again. It's hard when the comic's chronology is all over the fucking place.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Snowstorm seems to have thrown off Andrew's plans for updating.

[BitVyper]

Well....

What the fucking fuck

I guess he at least is sort of Cal then, although the extent to which that is true remains to be seen. Or more terrifyingly, possibly Gamzee. Nah that head is totally Cal's

[Viridis]

What do you mean, Bit? He is clearly himself. Not either of those two you mentioned. :raise:


...I wonder if he knew.

Separate from that, I wonder if him wanting to die was true.


Edit: Talking with someone else who sees it Bit's way, and I think I understand what you mean, now. That another being came through using his body. Hm. I wasn't thinking that, but possible.

[Aldurin]

Wow, that throws out my fedorafreak=LE theory. And it still drives me mad that Doc Scratch was never actually lying, but just leaving out most of the truth. I am still confused as fuck though.

[POS Industries]

He appears to be something of an amalgam of every evil manipulative force seen throughout the comic. Or, more accurately, every evil manipulative force seen throughout the comic is an extension of a part of him.

Lil' Cal is the voice of Lord English, Doc Scratch is his will, and Gamzee's religion is quite probably born from the legend of the demon heralded throughout Alternia's entire history by the Handmaid.

That's my educated guess, at least.

EDIT: ...Or the last sentence of this page provides a simpler explanation. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005523)

[BitVyper]

What do you mean, Bit? He is clearly himself. Not either of those two you mentioned. :raise:


...I wonder if he knew.

Separate from that, I wonder if him wanting to die was true.


Edit: Talking with someone else who sees it Bit's way, and I think I understand what you mean, now. That another being came through using his body. Hm. I wasn't thinking that, but possible.



In this case we can see that the head is totally Cal's. Given the facts I already brought up with relation to Cal (nightmare of the Hero of Time, repaired by the Hero of Space), and that we already know these sessions created the Green Sun, which we can now say with relative certainty IS Lord English's power source, this seems to pretty much clinch that Lord English must also be born as a result of whatever ends up happening.

EDIT: ...Or the last sentence of this page provides a simpler explanation.

Augh, that should have been obvious!

Edit: But yeah, I pretty much agree with you, POS. I think the REASON he's all of that is because he was created by these sessions. Of course, all the things that lead to it were caused by him.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Sooooooo.

Doc Scratch was being rather literal when he said he was the conduit through which Lord English would appear.

Hussie reducing Scratch to a doll was not a joke, but actually foreshadowing.

Judging by the effects we see, Lord English is a Green Sun entity (presumably getting Doc Scratch's powers), so destroying the Green Sun might actually still be on the table.

It looks like the piece of Cal inside of Scratch is Lord English. Cal was made by Gamzee, so presumably LE has some psychotic Gamzee in him as well.

Those "hooooonk" whisper-rasps were creepy as hell.

Not sure how I feel about what we've seen of LE so far. He's looking like an actual demon. Not quite what I was expecting after the insidiousness of his primary minion.

11/11/11 can't come soon enough.

[POS Industries]

But yeah, I pretty much agree with you, POS. I think the REASON he's all of that is because he was created by these sessions. Of course, all the things that lead to it were caused by him.
It just wouldn't be right if he weren't the living embodiment of a giant masturbatory paradox.

[Aldurin]

Now this makes me begin to wonder about Troll-universe Jack's survival, since he does have an item that may be very crucial later (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003139). Not to mention what other things he's looted from the Felt.

Now the question is, where (and when) does LE go first?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Now this makes me begin to wonder about Troll-universe Jack's survival, since he does have an item that may be very crucial later (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003139). Not to mention what other things he's looted from the Felt.

Now the question is, where (and when) does LE go first?

Didn't Lord English tele-time-fuckery to pastfuture Alternia? He's presumably going to go have that conversation with the Handmaid we already saw.

Also the Green Sun apparently is not actually a real sun-like thing, as Doc Scratch's house seemed to be doing just fine floating in there. So Spades might have survived killing his universe.

[POS Industries]

Plus the Condesce has a very brief window of time to get her marching orders and get the fuck out of the universe entirely.

EDIT: Wait no fuck Lord English is BIG CAL.

[Revising Ocelot]

So "tICK t0ck 8r8k H34DS HONK honk" pretty much came true, and those were two pretty Vast Honks. Wasn't that prophesied by the Subjugglators/Gamzee?

And IIRC there were supposed to be correlations between LE and Skipper Plumbthroat. Well, LE has a peg leg... but SP doesn't. Scratch that.

[Dracorion]

I can't believe Doc Scratch seriously just hulked out.

And I know LE being a pirate is so going to come back to Vriska some way.

[Revising Ocelot]

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/03206.gif

Well, now we have a reason for Gamzee fondly regarding Jade's tower.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Oh. I guess it sorta was Cal then.

Kinda reminded me of the incredible Hulk.

E: Jade and John are gonna rush in, see LE, and promptly turn the fuck aound

[Flarecobra]

Why is it when I looked at Lord English transforming... the Tank theme from L4D ran through my head?

[Ryong]

That was one short intermission.

Good, though.

[Locke cole]

Why is it when I looked at Lord English transforming... the Tank theme from L4D ran through my head?

I don't know, but now you're making me think of the Cowboy Bebop theme ("Tank!") over the intermission.

[Thadius]

Did Doc Scratch just go Godtier?

I think Doc just went Godtier.

This does not bode well. At all.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Nah, he just went English, you'll be able to tell from the accent once he talks.

[Aldurin]

Not sure how I feel about what we've seen of LE so far. He's looking like an actual demon. Not quite what I was expecting after the insidiousness of his primary minion.

I think he's supposed to fit the theme of the long-forgotten Felt, and he sure is fitting it. I'd rather battle Cans than confront him.

[Flarecobra]

I don't know, but now you're making me think of the Cowboy Bebop theme ("Tank!") over the intermission.

I ment this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDkeLx2SyfY)

[Bard The 5th LW]

Cal, God damn it. We were all supposed to dress up for this. It doesn't look like you even touched that nice suit I sewed for you, let alone swapped your eyes with those billiard balls and make them alternate rapidly. (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005133)

.

e: LE let out the vast honk, just as the subjuggalators foretold. He was also hearlded by Gamzee, the Bard of Rage.

[synkr0nized]

Why all the spoiler/swap tagging? Is anyone still reading this thread not up-to-date?


e: I mean, if that's actually happening, word up -- keep rockin' out with the tags. I will just remain surprised at that.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I've occasionally opened the thread and gotten spoiler of a flash that was JUST made, so I'm just waiting a bit before unspoilering.

[Loyal]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1180/jackenglish.png

Left is [s] Descend.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Left is [s] Descend.

Hussie tends to reuse artwork and animations (like, for example, Jade bitchslapping Jadesprite used the exact same animation as her slapping John to wake him up in [S] Descend).

I guess that dovetails nicely with the "significant details fucking everywhere" part of Homestuck, but it sometimes means he's just putting what he already has together (and thank God, because Homestuck would probably take a lot longer to do if he tried to be completely original in every panel/Flash).

EDIT: I don't think that's an example of reuse, though. They don't look all that alike.

And isn't that just a random Derse soldier?

[Loyal]

Hussie tends to reuse artwork and animations (like, for example, Jade bitchslapping Jadesprite used the exact same animation as her slapping John to wake him up in [S] Descend).Yes, that was the point.

And isn't that just a random Derse soldier? It's Jack. Note the scar.

[Viridis]

I think that's just there for the visual motif, Loyal, not as an actual hint or clue or anything. There are plenty of pages with similar poses to each other that don't really share anything else.
And isn't that just a random Derse soldier?
That's Jack.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Yes, that was the point.

Yes? I meant that it means that not every single thing is of significance, although it could be I guess.

Hussie tends to foreshadow stuff pretty openly (see: Cal page above), so you go OH SON OF A BITCH when you actually get the reveal, instead of going wait what and then picking over the past 6000 pages (although there is plenty of that).

Although we only have one short flash of LE, so there's not a lot to compare him to yet.

It's Jack. Note the scar.Oh, yeah. I don't remember that, though. What part of Descend is that?

[Loyal]

Yes? I meant that it means that not every single thing is of significance, although it could be I guess.At no point did I say it was. The side-by-side comparison was literally just "hey look at this reminiscent visual, Hussie's at it again."

It was on the Battlefield, when he was slaughtering guys. It's entirely possible to miss it, it only appears unobstructed for a fraction of a second.

[Fifthfiend]

That pretty succinctly answers my lingering question of why Alternia's First Guardian would be serving Lord English.

[Ecks]

So Doc Scratch WAS LE all along. Dammit. Also, that's just creepy man. I seriously hope that's just a skull and he'll have a proper face.

[Marc v4.0]

It seems more likely that He wasn't LE until he Was.

[Mr.Bookworm]

MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IN HOMESTUCK HISTORY

Scratch/LE.

Masturbation or sex?

[Revising Ocelot]

MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IN HOMESTUCK HISTORY

Scratch/LE.

Masturbation or sex?

http://i.imgur.com/F0J9a.jpg

[Arcanum]

Heh. So the magic white cue-ball was a seed for Doc Scratch, who was in turn a seed for Lord English. But now I'm curious: Is the Lord English we see the one and only Lord English, or is he simply the Lord English of the Alternia Universe.

What I mean is, we're told LE is methodical in his destruction of Universes, moving through them one at a time, but he only enters a Universe at its death. So now we know he enters the Alternian Universe by growing out of Doc Scratch (I'm trying to think of a way to describe what happened, and that seems the best so far). But are we witnessing the birth of Lord English? Is this his beginning? Is Alternia the very first universe he destroys?

Or does he have a different form for every universe he enters, depending on the First Guardian he incubates in? The magic white cue-ball seems to be an essential part, being the seed of LE's being. Doc Scratch was made from the cue-ball, the First Guardian genetic key, and Lil Cal. My guess is, the cue-ball is the mind, the First Guardian genetic key is his power (allows him access to the Green Sun), and the third is a variable that defines his body.

So my crazy theory is this (I feel like I'm rambling, but whatever): we're only seeing one form of Lord English, one who's physical body (and maybe to some extent his mentality in this instance) is derived from Lil Cal. So that if something other than Lil Cal was used in the creation of a Doc Scratch-like First Guardian (i.e. a First Guardian incubating LE), he would resemble that other thing.

Okay that's enough rambling for now.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I'm pretty sure Scratch says he has existed in several Universes, and Jade did have a cueball.

So my theory is that every universe is set up to have Doc Scratch appear in some way. Otherwise, why would he senmd a cueball over to the human universe. Cueball + Something else (Cal in Alternia's case). Any universe with Scratch is destined to have an English. In fact, I wouldn't be too shocked if the scratched Earth had a green moon hovering around it. Of course, we just have to wait and see.

[Revising Ocelot]

Well, who would have to die for LE to be summoned from the destruction of the kidverse? Jade? Bec Noir and PM?

And then he'd unleash the Vast... Meow. :wtf:

[Arcanum]

I'm pretty sure Scratch says he has existed in several Universes, and Jade did have a cueball.

So my theory is that every universe is set up to have Doc Scratch appear in some way. Otherwise, why would he senmd a cueball over to the human universe. Cueball + Something else (Cal in Alternia's case). Any universe with Scratch is destined to have an English. In fact, I wouldn't be too shocked if the scratched Earth had a green moon hovering around it. Of course, we just have to wait and see.

I don't think that every Universe is slated for destruction by Lord English though. The cue-balls were/are scattered like seeds (which is exactly what they are, Doc Scratch even said so I believe) across the Universes. Some of these seeds might grow (and help create an instance of Doc Scratch) and some of them might sit idle, bearing no fruit. And while I agree every universe with a Doc Scratch is destined to have a Lord English, I don't think every universe is destined to have a Doc Scratch.

But anyway, the whole point of my rambling post was to raise the idea that just as parts of Doc Scratch's personality and physical appearance are drawn from what spawned him (in this case Lil Cal), will Lord English's appearance and personality be affected the same way.

I personally believe that yes, his appearance and personality will be slightly different in every universe. And if that's true, and Lord English is trapped in the universe he is spawned in, and the only way he moves between universes is by being spawned from a Doc Scratch-like First Guardian, then the Lord English we just saw won't be the one that the Kids and Trolls end up facing. In fact, if all that is true, the only way to really beat Lord English is to destroy all of the cue-balls.

But yeah, if the post-scratch Kidsverse has a Cue-ball Guardian I won't be surprised either.

Anyway, Bard, stop indulging my theories and send me that Trollslum PM you slacker :P

Well, who would have to die for LE to be summoned from the destruction of the kidverse? Jade? Bec Noir and PM?

And then he'd unleash the Vast... Meow. :wtf:

None of those were created through ectobiology with a cue ball though, which is the seed for a Doc Scratch-like First Guardian, which is the seed for Lord English. The pre-scratch Kidverse doesn't have a Lord English. Post-Scratch kidverse might be a different story.

[POS Industries]

I don't think it's anything so broad, or particularly inherent to the normal elements of the game. The Magic Cue Balls simply belonged to Doc Scratch and may have very well even been created by him, and were a necessary engine to the self-fulfilling paradox of his creation. One could have simply been brought to Earth by the Condesce, seeing as the one Jade owned was a gift from Grandpa. The Condesce, as well, could have been responsible for effectively "programming" the MEOW code into Rose's subconscious via Jaspers, which then results in the events leading to Bec's creation, which was necessary to lead to the creation of the Green Sun, which itself was necessary to create everything that created it, as after all a non-corrupt first guardian with a higher intellect than a dog would have probably facilitated a completely normal session.

We also know that the trolls' ancestors were only unable to complete their session due to a glitch in the game's programming uncommon to the majority of sessions, which is the initial source of the events leading to LE coming into existence. The new session resulting from the glitch results in a universe designed to aid in the completion of this goal, which itself leaves the first session in the new universe's game unwinnable and requiring yet another scratch.

Conceivably, this results in the reset universe being completely free of any influence of LE, since there's nothing more he needs from it, and it succeeds in creating the next universe in the cycle unhindered until the next time the glitch shows up in another session down the road.

Of course, it's also worth noting that every universe has a first guardian as per the parameters of the game and that apparently all first guardians derive their power from the Green Sun. However, as the Green Sun exists outside of normal time in space in the Furthest Ring and the Furthest Ring exists outside of all universes, it also seems unlikely that a Green Sun needs to be created every time LE comes into existence. In fact, it seems more likely that every first guardian is powered by the very Green Sun created by the kids' session, which is itself pretty much par for the course regarding this story's circuitous time fuckery.

[BitVyper]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect the Green Sun to have to be created more than just this once. That would be weird, and not really fitting with what Doc Scratch said; that the kids' session is irregular even for one influenced by him.

Anyway, this looks pretty rad. (http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&q=Lord+English#/d4evjek)

[Arcanum]

Where are you guys getting the idea of the green sun being created twice? Because I never even hinted at anything like that (at least I don't think I did).

[BitVyper]

Dunno, I just read it in POS' post.

Edit:

The Condesce, as well, could have been responsible for effectively "programming" the MEOW code into Rose's subconscious via Jaspers, which then results in the events leading to Bec's creation, which was necessary to lead to the creation of the Green Sun, which itself was necessary to create everything that created it, as after all a non-corrupt first guardian with a higher intellect than a dog would have probably facilitated a completely normal session.

The Meow code didn't make Becquerel a dog. The instruments in Paradox Space targeting Harley did. The Meow code was just the genetic code for creating a First Guardian at all. Hard to say how Bec's form could have been influenced, since most of the paradox-cloning instruments are all auto-targeted and locked.

[Viridis]

Anyway, this looks pretty rad. (http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&q=Lord+English#/d4evjek)

I am liking this (http://datartz.tumblr.com/post/12261971284/kawaii-desu-about-30-min-on-photoshop), personally.

[POS Industries]

The Meow code didn't make Becquerel a dog. The instruments in Paradox Space targeting Harley did. The Meow code was just the genetic code for creating a First Guardian at all. Hard to say how Bec's form could have been influenced, since most of the paradox-cloning instruments are all auto-targeted and locked.
My point was that it had to be put into Rose's head so she'd obsessively write it down in a journal which would then be used to combine the genetic code with that of a dog through a very specific course of events ensuring that the Earth for that session wouldn't have a normal First Guardian, thereby playing into Lord English's plans, not that something called the "MEOW code" would somehow make something a dog.

Also, we actually don't know if the targeting that had taken place before John, Rose, or AR had entered their respective labs is an automatic result of the game's mechanics or just a result of someone having manually set those targets sometime before their arrival.

[Viridis]

What's a "normal" First Guardian, though, POS? All seem to come about in convoluted timey-wimey ways like this.

[POS Industries]

A "normal" First Guardian is one that isn't specifically designed in such a way as to lead to the summoning of an evil demonic master of time and space via their universe's complete annihilation, either by active involvement like Doc Scratch or just being a dog like Bec.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I've been thinking about what First Guardian actually means, since I suddenly realized that's a title we never really got a lot of explanation for, besides the fact that they all have the MEOW code (and are thus nigh-omnipotent).

I'm thinking, after the revelation that Scratch was keeping the Handmaid in the closet, that the First Guardian is a literal title. They're the first of the Guardians to arrive on their home planet. Bec was Jade's Guardian and Scratch turns out to have been the Handmaid's Guardian, albeit in the creepiest manner possible.

So I'm wondering who the First Guardian will be after the session reboot. Guessing either Bec (still taking care of Jade), Betty Crocker (she wasn't human, after all), or Halley.

Also totally startling revelation that I just saw: Jack was using a jackknife as his weapon way back when.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I'm banking on the new first guardian being Scratch or some variation of him. I can very well be wrong, but I'm still gunning on it.

[BitVyper]

A "normal" First Guardian is one that isn't specifically designed in such a way as to lead to the summoning of an evil demonic master of time and space via their universe's complete annihilation, either by active involvement like Doc Scratch or just being a dog like Bec.

All we really know is that First Guardians exist to facilitate the purpose of their respective planets. In this case, that involved creating the Green Sun at all, and possibly the possibility of "universes" period, but that's speculative on my part. Without the Green Sun and First Guardians, I'm guessing stable, alpha timelines wouldn't exist. Hell, maybe having stable timelines necessitates an entity like Lord English to prune them.

Doc Scratch may or may not be interpretted as a subversion. Keep in mind that Lord English's existence is at least to some extent considered part of the natural order, or at least something that is sanctioned. In that case, ushering in Lord English seems like a fairly legitimate ultimate purpose for a planet to have. I'd probably stake whether it is or isn't on whether the original Alternia's First Guardian purposely set events in motion to lead to the scratch (the actual glitch in the session notwithstanding, because they could still have chosen not to scratch it), but I'm not sure that's a question that has any hope of being answered even in a series like Homestuck.

However, without Alternia bringing Lord English into their universe, there would have been no dual session, and there would be no Green Sun. That seems to serve a fairly significant purpose, and may make it as much Bec's doing as Scratch's, though they operate in different ways, and I'd guess that Bec is ultimately meant to facilitate the death of Lord English.

I don't think there really could possibly be a "norm" for First Guardians anyway. The only real commonality between them is that they are nearly omnipotent, and they don't accomplish their purposes through direct means.

Edit: The dual session itself is also interesting in that it could be seen as sexual reproduction between two universes. Ultimately, whatever universe the kids create will also bear the imprint of the trolls' direct influence. That could be seen as important in terms of creating the possibility of genetic variation amongst universes.

[POS Industries]

This is all very true and obviously plays into the central theme in Homestuck of the impossibility of subverting the inevitable. LE, the ultimate villain of the story, is completely reliant on inevitability to bring about his very existence, but it conceivably leaves him as much a slave to it as anyone else. The story is not about the heroes overcoming the inherent predestination involved in their lives and triumphantly carving their own fate, but rather whether or not they are even able to survive destiny and how they will or won't.

But what I'm saying about First Guardians is much more specific. There is a natural order to how the game is supposed to be played and the end result thereof, that is typical to the end of successfully creating a universe that itself eventually leads to the game in order to create the next universe in the chain. In a normal session, a First Guardian's task is to facilitate that standard purpose, thereby qualifying as a normal First Guardian from a normal session.

It has been pointed out that neither the kids' nor the trolls' sessions were normal, and therefore the First Guardians of these abnormal sessions were left with the task of facilitating the purpose of these abnormal sessions, thereby behaving as abnormal First Guardians by default. These anomalous sessions still serve a greater end to the overall functionality of the game, primarily the creation of the Green Sun, but it appears that their actions, mannerisms, and appearances are not to be taken as the standard, however broad that standard may be.

[Fifthfiend]

Keep in mind that Lord English's existence is at least to some extent considered part of the natural order, or at least something that is sanctioned.

Given the extent to which Doc Scratch's values of truth don't necessarily line up with what we assume, it's probably reasonable toe question what Doc Scratch means by "order" and who exactly it is that's "sanctioning" all of this.

Like for all we know LE's place in the natural order could be sanctioned by... LE.

[Mr.Bookworm]

My personal thoughts are that the themes of inevitably and predestination and all of that in Homestuck almost just went out the window with the end of Act 5 and the Intermission.

Trollian time window stuff no longer works, the last thing ever supposed to happen in the universe has happened with the appearance of Lord English, and everyone involved is almost completely off the map.

There will certainly still be time shenanigans and all, but they lack the easy access to knowledge of the future they had, unless I'm missing something. That the universe is predestined doesn't actually matter if there's no knowledge of where it's headed by the heroes.

[POS Industries]

Yeah, at the very least they can now pretend like they're totally the masters of their own destiny and no one can tell them any different regardless of whether or not it's true.

[Fifthfiend]

Nah they've still got Aradia and Dave as the official Gods of Buzzkill.

[Fifthfiend]

CG: OKAY GUYS FIRST WE'RE GONNA DO THIS THEN THIS THEN OPEN A TIME VORTEX HERE THEN PUNCH LORD ENGLISH IN THE TEMPORAL KIDNEYS THERE THEN

Dave: *TIMEBLINK*

TG: nope

CG: GOD FUCKING DAMMIT STRIDER

[POS Industries]

CG: OKAY SO SINCE STRIDER HAD TO BE A FUCKING NOOKSLAPPING JACKASS WE'RE GOING TO TRY A NEW PLAN WHERE

TT: Nope.

CG: OH COME THE FUCK ON LALONDE, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TIME BULLSHIT.

TT: I saw what's going to happen, Karkat. It gets us all killed. Also, Lord English honks at you mockingly and I imagine you'll be pretty embarrassed.

TC: honk.

CG: SHUT UP.

TC: MOTHERFUCKIN HONK.

CG: NO GODDAMMIT, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

GC: H3H3H3 SH3'S R1GHT, K4RK4T, 1 S4W 1T TOO. YOU PR3TTY MUCH G3T HONKF3D STR41GHT UP TH3 BON3BULDG3. >:]

CG: FUCKING FINE, HOW ABOUT WE JUST

AA: nope!

CG: THEN WHAT ABOUT

GA: No That Will Just Make It Worse

CG: RIGHT, BUT WHAT IF WE

TG: nope

CG: OR HOW ABOUT

GC: NOP3 >:?

CG: WAIT, I'VE GOT IT. LET'S JUST

TT: Yes, that's actually pretty smart. Good idea.

CG: WAIT, REALLY?

TT: Nope.

CG: OH GO CLIMB A HIVE OF OOZING SEEDFLAPS, LALONDE. HERE'S AN IDEA, WHY DON'T YOU ALL JUST

TC: honk. :o)

CG: YOU KNOW WHAT? FUCK THIS AND FUCK EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU. I'M GOING TO GO HOP RIGHT BACK INTO OUR SESSION, PROSTRATE MY SHAME GLOBES RIGHT UP IN JACK'S FACE, AND BEG HIM TO STAB ME UNTIL THE END OF ETERNITY. WAY TO GO, TEAM. THIS IS WHAT WE CAN ACCOMPLISH WHEN WE FUCKING WORK TOGETHER.

[Locke cole]

Indistinguishable from actual dialogue. Bravo, man.

[CelesJessa]

I just realized something: (spoiler'd? I'm willing to bet it's not a coincidence and will come into play later) The shorthand for all of the kid’s and troll’s screennames all only use GTCA. AKA they’re totally a DNA sequence. John’s is the only one to break the pattern with EB. BUT early in Homestuck he changed his Pesterchum handle to EB from GT.

Hmmmmmmmm….

[Dracorion]

It's right there in the MSPA wiki. (http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Online_handles_and_genetics)

[CelesJessa]

Dammit. I'm going over to the stupid corner now.

[rpgdemon]

This is all very true and obviously plays into the central theme in Homestuck of the impossibility of subverting the inevitable. LE, the ultimate villain of the story, is completely reliant on inevitability to bring about his very existence, but it conceivably leaves him as much a slave to it as anyone else. The story is not about the heroes overcoming the inherent predestination involved in their lives and triumphantly carving their own fate, but rather whether or not they are even able to survive destiny and how they will or won't.

But what I'm saying about First Guardians is much more specific. There is a natural order to how the game is supposed to be played and the end result thereof, that is typical to the end of successfully creating a universe that itself eventually leads to the game in order to create the next universe in the chain. In a normal session, a First Guardian's task is to facilitate that standard purpose, thereby qualifying as a normal First Guardian from a normal session.

It has been pointed out that neither the kids' nor the trolls' sessions were normal, and therefore the First Guardians of these abnormal sessions were left with the task of facilitating the purpose of these abnormal sessions, thereby behaving as abnormal First Guardians by default. These anomalous sessions still serve a greater end to the overall functionality of the game, primarily the creation of the Green Sun, but it appears that their actions, mannerisms, and appearances are not to be taken as the standard, however broad that standard may be.

This reminds me, wasn't it stated that Scratch replaced the original first guardian, to subvert that guardian's plans?

[Locke cole]

All he says is that pre-Scratch, they'd never known the corruptive force that led their history down a path of producing psychotic murderers. That is, they had never known him. I wonder if they even had a First Guardian pre-Scratch.

[BitVyper]

All planets destined for sentient life have a First Guardian as has been previously stated. Scratching a session in which said First Guardian was created would probably erase that particular incarnation of the planet's First Guardian.

Then again, I suppose that not having a First Guardian could be the very glitch that made the session unwinnable, but I highly doubt it. It doesn't seem to fit the criteria.

[Fifthfiend]

CG: OKAY SO SINCE STRIDER HAD TO BE A FUCKING NOOKSLAPPING JACKASS WE'RE GOING TO TRY A NEW PLAN WHERE

TT: Nope.

CG: OH COME THE FUCK ON LALONDE, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TIME BULLSHIT.

TT: I saw what's going to happen, Karkat. It gets us all killed. Also, Lord English honks at you mockingly and I imagine you'll be pretty embarrassed.

TC: honk.

CG: SHUT UP.

TC: MOTHERFUCKIN HONK.

CG: NO GODDAMMIT, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

GC: H3H3H3 SH3'S R1GHT, K4RK4T, 1 S4W 1T TOO. YOU PR3TTY MUCH G3T HONKF3D STR41GHT UP TH3 BON3BULDG3. >:]

CG: FUCKING FINE, HOW ABOUT WE JUST

AA: nope!

CG: THEN WHAT ABOUT

GA: No That Will Just Make It Worse

CG: RIGHT, BUT WHAT IF WE

TG: nope

CG: OR HOW ABOUT

GC: NOP3 >:?

CG: WAIT, I'VE GOT IT. LET'S JUST

TT: Yes, that's actually pretty smart. Good idea.

CG: WAIT, REALLY?

TT: Nope.

CG: OH GO CLIMB A HIVE OF OOZING SEEDFLAPS, LALONDE. HERE'S AN IDEA, WHY DON'T YOU ALL JUST

TC: honk. :o)

CG: YOU KNOW WHAT? FUCK THIS AND FUCK EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU. I'M GOING TO GO HOP RIGHT BACK INTO OUR SESSION, PROSTRATE MY SHAME GLOBES RIGHT UP IN JACK'S FACE, AND BEG HIM TO STAB ME UNTIL THE END OF ETERNITY. WAY TO GO, TEAM. THIS IS WHAT WE CAN ACCOMPLISH WHEN WE FUCKING WORK TOGETHER.

EB: Well I still believe in you!

CG: OH FUCK YOU EGGBERT, JUST FUCK YOU FOREVER.

[synkr0nized]

EB: Well I still believe in you!

CG: OH FUCK YOU EGGBERT, JUST FUCK YOU FOREVER.

hahahaha great cap to that

[Mr.Bookworm]

I'm so glad I was here to witness POS and Fifth doing their first joint fanfic.

[Ecks]

I warned you about fanfics bro!

[Aldurin]

I'm so glad I was here to witness POS and Fifth doing their first joint fanfic.

It's like watching the birth of a seriously deformed paradox child.

[Revising Ocelot]

Lord English infodump. (http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/12341136347/le-factoids)

In short:


LE was in Scratch all along, it's a Jekyll/Hyde thing
That really was a Vast Honk that LE unleashed, and Scratch/LE represent the two Mirthful Messiahs
LE does have a 'tenuous connection' with Skipper Plumbthroat, which I guess all but confirms that he's the one killing the Horrorterrors (Squiddles)

[Fifthfiend]

Lord English infodump. (http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/12341136347/le-factoids)

Scratch was LE all along

They’re separate entities.

>(

[Revising Ocelot]

That's what happens when I forget 'in'. And swap names around.

Hey, it's 1:31AM here, that usually renders me more idiotic than usual.