#1132: "Yay!"

[Kurosen]

Poor Fighter.

[POS Industries]

I bet Zombie Headless Black Belt is the real end boss.

It's how you can bring him back, you know.

[Yoshimitz707]

Oh great. Brian's going to kill everyone. I'm so overjoyed.

[Dr. Casey]

And thus ends the debate as to whether or not Red Mage is a good person.

That was a stunning speech, Red-kun. ^^ Kudos.

[Red King]

Ok so wow. They ARE the endboss? Whoa.





Whoa.

[justice~!]

Just can't see them all dying yet with so much to wrap up. Besides, why get them to bring all of the orbs together and *then* kill them? If Sarda was really that heroic why wouldn't he have ended them sooner?

[LTGM]

So wait...Sarda, Onion Kid, White Mage, and some other fourth party (WarMech? Garland? King Steve? Sara? The String!?) are the light warriors. Black Mage, Red Mage and Thief are the end boss. And the entire comic has been shown from the view of the villains. It's all so obvious now! My god...you're a genius! A horrible, malicious genius!

[Fifthfiend]

More like good spelling is a casaulty!

[BitVyper]

"'No, John. You are the demons.'

And then John was a zombie."

[justice~!]

So wait...Sarda, Onion Kid, White Mage, and some other fourth party (WarMech? Garland? King Steve? Sara? The String!?) are the light warriors. Black Mage, Red Mage and Thief are the end boss. And the entire comic has been shown from the view of the villains. It's all so obvious now! My god...you're a genius! A horrible, malicious genius!

Oh no, based on this and #1132 now I am suspecting that the fourth party you are wondering about...is *Fighter*.

[amot]

I think I understand now. The catch phrase is "the tale of four heroes that fail to save the world."

With this latest revelations I predict.

That the four heroes are, in fact, the REAL light warriors who will lose. This shall allow our characters to destroy everything.

[Solid Snake]

In light of these revelations, Sarda's recent behavior doesn't make much sense. If the four Light Warriors are evil and must be destroyed, and Sarda is truly omnipotent, why not just erase them from existence outright? Several hundred comics ago, for that matter? Or before the LWs were even born?

...I feel there's still more to Sarda's motives here that's yet to be revealed.

[Mirai Gen]

...I feel there's still more to Sarda's motives here that's yet to be revealed.
For the same reason he forced them to go get the orbs for him, which is also coincidentally why he made days from 36 hours to 24:

Cause its funny.


Also Fighter's sadness makes me laugh similar to how I laugh at Warbot.

[The Foreigner]

Motherf*****

Been reading this things for over five years and never ocurred to me that they would be the end boss in this comic. Way to go powers of observation!

And for your pleasure behold the Doom Warriors!

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3608/realthreat.jpg

(Black Metal song in the background)

[Panthera]

Wait. So if the Light Warriors kill Sarda and reconcile (or take out Black Mage but the other three stay together), does that mean the heroes or the villains won?

[01d55]

In light of these revelations, Sarda's recent behavior doesn't make much sense. If the four Light Warriors are evil and must be destroyed, and Sarda is truly omnipotent, why not just erase them from existence outright? Several hundred comics ago, for that matter? Or before the LWs were even born?

Because he's a huge jerk?

[Lord Setheris]

Epic.

[Havok Dryke]

Wait. So if the Light Warriors kill Sarda and reconcile (or take out Black Mage but the other three stay together), does that mean the heroes or the villains won?
Kill? Sarda?

Why don't you go ask Ranger how well that went for him.

[Yoshimitz707]

If he just wanted them dead he wouldn't bother bringing them back to life. I think he's going to send them on another quest to kill the real end boss and they're supposed to die killing whatever they're supposed to kill.

[Kurosen]

Wait. So if the Light Warriors kill Sarda and reconcile (or take out Black Mage but the other three stay together), does that mean the heroes or the villains won?
The phrase "If X wins, then the villains win", where X refers to any group of characters in this comic, is always true.

[justice~!]

If he just wanted them dead he wouldn't bother bringing them back to life. I think he's going to send them on another quest to kill the real end boss and they're supposed to die killing whatever they're supposed to kill.

This! I can't see Sarda resurrecting them just to have them killed again. Then again, I've never been able to see anything that has happened in this comic. :)

[The Foreigner]

Here's a crazy idea... what if he brings them back to life so that they get killed again because that amuses him?

[Thadius]

Well.

Um.

I...

I'll admit, you threw me for a loop there.

But wait. They were proclaimed to be the Light Warriors by King Steve. Bahumut gave them powers befitting the Enlightened Warriors. The Dwarves proclaimed them to be the fabled Bearded Warriors as well. And let's not forget they gathered the freaking Orbs of Light.

Something tells me Sarda is up to something. Then again, he IS the wizard who did it. I'll sit tight until Thursday when Brian will more likely than not just pull a big old 'PUNK'D' on us. And then I'll laugh at my own paranoia.

[jbball]

Wait, even if X = fighter(s)? or would fighter be the only hero since he's the exception?

[Jreed]

"'No, John. You are the demons.'"

And then John was a zombie.

Well put.

Nicely summaries's 8-Bit Theater as a whole.

[Bells]

And the Orbs are just for show...? 4 Orbs, 4 warriors, 1 chaos..... think about it.

[Panthera]

The phrase "If X wins, then the villains win", where X refers to any group of characters in this comic, is always true.

What if X is Fighter...wait, he's an easy pawn for evil. White Mage...wait, she CREATED the whole crapsack world. Uh...Onion Kid and...Lich's wife?

[justice~!]

Here's a crazy idea... what if he brings them back to life so that they get killed again because that amuses him?

That'd be retarded, and since nothing retarded has happened in this comic yet (seriously, there's been some funny twists but nothing intelligence-insulting) I'm not feelin' it.

[The Foreigner]

That'd be retarded, and since nothing retarded has happened in this comic yet (seriously, there's been some funny twists but nothing intelligence-insulting) I'm not feelin' it.

So Sarda's being delighted on other's suffering is retarded now?

What, did I miss something?

[Bells]

But wait. They were proclaimed to be the Light Warriors by King Steve. Bahumut gave them powers befitting the Enlightened Warriors. The Dwarves proclaimed them to be the fabled Bearded Warriors as well. And let's not forget they gathered the freaking Orbs of Light.

King Steve = Moron
Bahamut = Just wanted them to leave as soon as possible
Dwarves = Homicidal, also probably stupid
Obrs of Light (or elemental orbs?) = None of which they got without using less-then-honorable tactics

[Uroogla]

This! I can't see Sarda resurrecting them just to have them killed again. Then again, I've never been able to see anything that has happened in this comic. :)

To the contrary, it would be a very satisfactory and logical result.

[katiuska]

And thus ends the debate as to whether or not Red Mage is a good person.

I want to believe, but I've always known that it's my own fault for that.

[Ggolbez]

This is NOT the swordulousness ending that was promised me by Dr. Swordopolis!

[TheSparrow]

I like how many people are believing that The LWs are the end boss because SARDA says so. Sarda the Jackass. Sarda who killed the other warriors because they were bothering him. Sarda who sent Dragoon to the moon because he was bothering him. The guy who may or may not have unmade bard before he was born.

This is the guy whos word you are going to trust?

[justice~!]

So Sarda's being delighted on other's suffering is retarded now?

What, did I miss something?

Sarda being delighted in others suffering isn't retarded. I meant from a storyline perspective Sarda bringing back them back to life in the face of his explanation, with the justification that, "He enjoys the suffering" doesn't make sense. 8bit has had some contrivances in the past but those contrivances
a) haven't made 300-800 episodes of worth of comic meaningless
b) still fit together in a generally logical manner.

[justice~!]

To the contrary, it would be a very satisfactory and logical result.

I stand corrected!!

[The Foreigner]

Sarda being delighted in others suffering isn't retarded. I meant from a storyline perspective Sarda bringing back them back to life in the face of his explanation, with the justification that, "He enjoys the suffering" doesn't make sense. 8bit has had some contrivances in the past but those contrivances
a) haven't made 300-800 episodes of worth of comic meaningless
b) still fit together in a generally logical manner.

Well maybe he's just saying that they're the selfish monsters as an excuse to kill them all, cause, you know, for him it'd be hilarious.

Then again no one really knows why he does the things he does I mean, he did just resurrect those whom he considers "the bad guys". If they are, then why the hell didn't he left them to rot in the ground?

[justice~!]

If they are, then why the hell didn't he left them to rot in the ground?

*NOW* I'm feeling it! Exactly! I love how this comic brings people together.

[The Foreigner]

*NOW* I'm feeling it! Exactly! I love how this comic brings people together.

Yay!

[bluestarultor]

It might be that he's just acknowledging they're all horrible, but by no means did he explicitly say they were the main villain. They're probably the Light Warriors due to that change way back before the class change where something "felt different, but somehow right," which basically was put in to say they didn't start that way, but ended up that way. No, they're all horrible people (minus Fighter), but they may be the world's only hope, as bad for the world as that may be.

[Lorpius Prime]

Oh God, in the last panel, I imagined BM's voice as that of Cartman from South Park. And now they all sound like South Park characters to me.

[BigDemonicBunny]

Crazy epileptic trees theory time!

Sarda brought them back to life so that they could be defeated by the real lightwarriors.
You know, the guys who have been at times abandoned on the polar icecap and whose orbs aren't even lukewarm with destiny.

Honestly, they're the only group of 8-bit warriors that haven't appeared yet.

[Dracorion]

[Insert huge long rant post here]

Sarda can't be the good guy! He's a goddamn jackass. At least the Light Warriors will kill people outright than jackass them into living long, miserable lives.

Chaos needs to show up and fireball Sarda upside the head.

[Gabranth]

What happens if Sarda is actually an avatar... for the Dark Warriors, eh? And that he's really just messin' with them for the DW's sake? I mean, Swordopolis can splice reality, too...

Edit: What if Sarda is Chaos's avatar? Or Chaos in disguise? I mean, they're both red(ish), and we've never actually seen Sarda's face behind the cowl (kinda like the Wanderer in Diablo II, if you get where I'm going)

[Art of Hilt]

Just because he says they NEED to die doesn't mean he's actually going to kill them.
After all, he is a jackass to not just them, but the whole of existence in general.

[Ultima08]

My favorite comic in this series ever

[Katuko]

Edit: What if Sarda is Chaos's avatar? Or Chaos in disguise? I mean, they're both red(ish), [snip]
http://smilies.vidahost.com/games/ff/ff1/chaos.gif
Yeah, Chaos' totally red. :)

I really enjoyed this development, by the way. Seems like a way to bring the team back together again. I like the idea of Black Mage going around burning things, but I still want the rest of them around, screwing each other over as usual.
But with this revelation, will Fighter now have to slaughter them all?

[iCat]

This can't possibly be happening. Blackmage is getting something he wants.

[Kim]

http://smilies.vidahost.com/games/ff/ff1/chaos.gif

I won't be so forgiving this time around! (Say what?)
I will put you in the ground!

I get the impression that Sarda needs them to do something before they're allowed to die, but what that is is still an unknown. It might be defeat Chaos. It might be become Chaos. It might be bake a delicious cake that is also low in sugar and carbohydrates.

[UndrDog]

I still contest that the bad guys are the good guys, and our heroes are indeed the bad guys. /reference signature

In fact, Sarda's method of things have added to this view too. Being cruel to the main party to get them more evil. Even making WM the creator of the universe, a universe that inherently despises BM and his party, helps. Killing off the forces of good while resurrecting the main party and keeping them from death does too. Sarda merely acts like a jerk to develop the "heroes". Much like a good teacher would act honorable to instill virtue in good heroes.

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak, again, for this... But I still think that in this iteration of "Final Fantasy", the Light has become too powerful, and the Dark Warriors must rise to restore balance in the world.

[AngelFoodBB]

The last batch of comics are not making much sense and I think Brian's just doing random things hoping we'd fill in the "why's" to be satisfactory to ourselves.

Until recently the comics have made sense and were relavent to the plot. The last 7 or so...just seem to be pointless, random plot developments that are undone for no reason hoping we'd chalk it up to "LOL SARDA IS A JACKASS ROFL"

Like Brian's stalling cuz he doesn't want to end it till his other comic begins to pick up and it just so happens to have occurred during a place where stalling is the last thing that should be going on.

Fighter's even acting OOC by raising arms against BM. BM has attempted to kill him several times and killed many others and Fighter never once questioned it, yet suddenly he doesn't seem to mind killing his bestest bud.

Fighter was wearing a burning RM for a while and didn't seem to care. I doubt he'd care much about WM to go from bestest buds to not hesitating to killing him.

[Kim]

Fighter's even acting OOC by raising arms against BM. BM has attempted to kill him several times and killed many others and Fighter never once questioned it, yet suddenly he doesn't seem to mind killing his bestest bud.

Well, as several people have pointed out, Fighter never really sees BM killing innocent civilians, not to mention that WM is one of their friends. Seeing BM kill a friend definitely changes things. Plus, BM has never successfully killed Fighter.

As for the latest plot developments, I keep getting the impression that Sarda is pretty much going, "No, dammit! Stop killing each other. These are the guys who you're supposed to kill and are supposed to kill you. Do it right." There's also the possibility that he still needs them for something. Besides, you question this but you never questioned him making them get the orbs when he could have easily?

EDIT: Plus it did resolve one thing. It shut people the hell up about 434.

[bass_virus]

I'm betting that the Light Warriors really are the true villains of the comic, and Sarda probably has some reason why he hasn't killed them yet, it might not make any sense but he has a reason. I mean really who else could be the villain? The Light Warriors (minus Fighter) are more evil than anyone else in the comic.

[PsychoticAven]

Evil Princess Sarah?

[Doc T]

It's perfectly understandishable:

Sarda wanted the orbs for some grand scheme to make himself the most powerful entity in the universe. But instead of fetching them himself, he was happened upon by The Light Warriors, who'd been railroading into accepting a quest- any quest from hi by White Mage.

Sarda disliked them instantly and decided that instead of fetching the orbs himself, it'd be more fun to torment those jerks instead, sending them repeatedly into certain death.

The only reason Sarda has resurrected Fighter and Thief is because he missed the first part of their battle. If the Light Warriors are going to kill each other, Sarda isn't going to miss a second of it. So he's making them do it once more from the top.

[El Mullet]

This can't possibly be happening. Blackmage is getting something he wants.

It may seem that way right now, but come back in about five future comics. This will more than likely be untrue.

As far as the Light Warriors being the "end boss", Sarda never actually REFERRED to the group as the "end boss". He simply labelled them "selfish monsters that need to die for the good of "everyone else" (except Fighter). Whether its implied they're the final boss or not is up to interpretation for at least a couple of days (and it probably is implied, so whatever), but this comic is chock full of selfish monsters who need to die for the good of everyone else. Granted most of them have killed eachother throughout 1130+ comics, but ANYONE can be a final boss at this point.

To put it simply, this world is full of horrible people, and the only way they can be considered "good guy(s)" is if their degree of loathsome behavior is a few notches below their current opponent(s).

As for Red Mage being evil, I submit to you the whole of the Chocobo Sex mini-arc. And the fact that "Animal Husbandry" can solve anything. Really not much else needed to prove it.

[timemonkey]

I suspect Sarda keeps bringing them back do to the fact that, back at the begining of the universe when things were very suggestable, she called Sarda the Guardian of Fate. This statement could be forcing him to make sure things end up as they were prophesised wether he wants to or not.

[Codemonkey85]

Like Brian's stalling cuz he doesn't want to end it till his other comic begins to pick up and it just so happens to have occurred during a place where stalling is the last thing that should be going on.

Stalling? I am going to have to disagree on this one. The pace of the comic seems pretty much the same here as it's ever been. I mean, there was one comic actually titled "1.4 Years = 20 Minutes of Gameplay". What's changed?

Begins to pick up? You do realize that Atomic Robo was nominated for an Eisner Award, don't you? It's not like Brian forgot to mention it. Hell, for a while there I thought the site's domain name was going to be changed to EisnerPower.com.

People don't seem to realize that 8-Bit Theater is draining Brian of (what little is left of) his soul. Plus his wallet. So the idea that he's stalling it and putting off his move to a bigger, better, more satisfying and more profitable medium is just silly.

[Si Civa]

"You're all selfis monsters who need to die for the good of everyone else."

So is Sarda going to destroy the whole fucking universe or what?

[Red King]

Or, Sarda could start his next sentence with "but"

[Meister]

Could whoever proposed the theory of the Light Warriors themselves as Chaos have been right after all?

It's the only theory that ever made a lick of sense around here, might as well!

begins to pick up
Yeah, like Studboy said, I don't think it's possibly for an indie comic to pick up any more, or maybe any faster, than Robo already does.

[Loyal]

The only reason Sarda has resurrected Fighter and Thief is because he missed the first part of their battle. If the Light Warriors are going to kill each other, Sarda isn't going to miss a second of it. So he's making them do it once more from the top.While a sensible motive, relatively, Sarda has been there the whole time, just unpacking his luggage.

[dimebagdrl]

You're ALL selfish monsters who need to die for the good of EVERYONE ELSE.

I'm most likely a idiot, but I'm not reading that the same way everyone else here seems to be.

Everyones reading that as if it's, "You guys aren't Heroes. you are Uber-evil and will die for it. You are the (end) boss."

I read that and see, "You guys are bad. Just bad. But you are going to die fighting the (end) boss and everyone else will benefit from it, so it's all good. HA!"

Either way seems like the Sarda way of doing things, but the "You suck, you die, win-win for everyone BUT you." way just makes Sarda slightly more of an ass in this case which makes me give that way the edge on being the right one.

But, Like I said, I'm probably an idiot.

[Molotovich]

In light of these revelations, Sarda's recent behavior doesn't make much sense. If the four Light Warriors are evil and must be destroyed, and Sarda is truly omnipotent, why not just erase them from existence outright? Several hundred comics ago, for that matter? Or before the LWs were even born?

...I feel there's still more to Sarda's motives here that's yet to be revealed.

Because they AREN'T the Light Warriors, they faked their entrance (The real ones were leveling Up, by Red Wizard's suggestion)... and later they killed the real ones when fighter flipped a portable hole upon itself

[Kurosen]

Yeah, like Studboy said, I don't think it's possibly for an indie comic to pick up any more, or maybe any faster, than Robo already does.
If it was from an established comics creator with a trusted pedigree of titles, it could. But an indie title coming from the same circumstances as Atomic Robo could not possibly take off faster than Atomic Robo did. This isn't ego, it's Diamond's new policies which make it mathematically impossible for wholly new indie creators to take off without a slow crawl up one of the Big Four.

Like Brian's stalling
I love it when people fall back on something like "stalling for time" as opposed to "successfully stumping me as it's intended" when they can't figure out what's happening in a story written to defy figuring out what's happening.

What I like most about writing is giving an audience a new or unpredictable experience because they are so goddamned rare any more. We're all conditioned by blind adherence to tropes and predictable storylines because we get most of our stories in the modern era from television shows, movies, and books. It so happens that the producers of television, movies, and books are (generally) too terrified to give you anything new because that would represent a risk. Why give an audience something it hasn't proven to already enjoy, after all, when it's much easier to bet your job on the fact that they'll like what they already liked. This isn't some kind of punk rock anti-corporate screed, it's just the reality of modern storytelling. I'm one of those lucky creators who can afford to do whatever crazy/stupid thing he wants because no one's demanding a multi-million dollar return on a multi-million dollar investment.

[Clord]

8-Bit Theater is not logical and is not probably even meant to be so. :)

So comic probably ends some humorous way.

[capnchicken]

We're all conditioned by blind adherence to tropes and predictable storylines because we get most of our stories in the modern era from television shows, movies, and books.

As opposed to what? Oral histories past down through the generations ... there's some originality in those, no blind adherence or predictable storylines there ... ;) .

[Si Civa]

Wait, wait.
Is Sarda trying to make them work together? Friendship and group hugs for the powah?
Could he be that kind of jerk?

[Kurosen]

As opposed to what?
As opposed to stories that don't require huge investments by businessmen who, naturally, want to minimize risk on their investments and who, by virtue of making the investment, have significant sway over the end product. Most innovation in modern storytelling comes from comics and gets filtered into other media years later. This isn't because geniuses always go into comics. It's because comics creators, by virtue of requiring less capital for their works to be made, are allowed greater freedom to experiment. Once the experiment is perfected and proven profitable, it moves into the mainstream. This has been going on since the early 20th century.

Again, I'm not railing against "the system", it is what it is.

Oral histories past down through the generations ... there's some originality in those, no blind adherence or predictable storylines there ... ;) .
You're talking about reproducing a particular work, not new works themselves. You might as well mention that two different copies of, say, Harry Potter are exactly the same. Of course they are.

[Tiako]

I would generally contest the claim that comic books are some grand bastion of originality and high concept literature. But that is irrelevant, because this needs to be said:

It all makes so much goddamn sense now! I used to assume the Light Warriors were just a simple party that went far off the rails, but now I see that they are a villain party that have stayed exactly on the rails.

[Mirai Gen]

t's Diamond's new policies which make it mathematically impossible for wholly new indie creators to take off
I'm aware that Diamond is an asshole in this regard, but I'm not aware of the specific policies?
It all makes so much goddamn sense now! I used to assume the Light Warriors were just a simple party that went far off the rails, but now I see that they are a villain party that have stayed exactly on the rails.
It actually got hinted at (or at least I believe so) when Fighter pointed out all the devastation they kept leaving in their wake back before the Water Orb.

[Cyklos]

Speculation-time for new guy!
I think it all will end with BM and fighter being transported back in time to the beginning of the webcomic, when they walk through the Giant's Forest. It will be much like The Dark tower. Anticlimax? Yes. Epic? Yes.
It would explain why Black mage is so pissed of, he has lived through being with Fighter for an eternity.

[Red King]

Ok. While it does look that way, I don't exactly think the light warriors are the endboss. For a number of reasons.

1)Earlier in the comic, Sarda was good(As he proves to be now, albeit a jackass out of time and space) and he tried to turn THEM good, made clear in his words "I could make them be good"

2)While the LightWarriors are incredible jackasses, selfish murderers and over-all scoundrels, they don't seem to fit the requirements for an endboss, since there is nobody good strong enough to kill them except Sarda, and that would be anti-climatic into the unsatisfying.

3)Swordopolis said they AND the Dark Warriors had a part to play, and while the dark warriors MIGHT be a force for good, honestly now, they were beaten by the weaker former Light Warriors.

I'd say more but I'm out of time

[Arrekusu]

I won't be so forgiving this time around! (Say what?)
I will put you in the ground!

I'm so happy someone else has seen this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ58aUqteZg)

[Molotovich]

The only reason Sarda has resurrected Fighter and Thief is because he missed the first part of their battle. If the Light Warriors are going to kill each other, Sarda isn't going to miss a second of it. So he's making them do it once more from the top.

MMmmmm... Sarda Knows everything since he woke up this century. So I believe this one doesnt stick to it.

Proof: Right Here (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/04/21/episode-1119-talk-amongst-yourselves/)

[CopperNinja]

....Sarda is obviously lying.... How many times has he been surprised?
At least twice. His words are as trustworthy as red mage's.

I figure he is just a very very VERY powerful wizard, and nothing more.

Oh and lets not forget his blunder at the beginning of the universe.
An all knowing god he is not.

And the idea that he does not need the "light warriors" is laughable.
He finds them far more annoying than amusing.

[Kurosen]

I'm aware that Diamond is an asshole in this regard, but I'm not aware of the specific policies?
Previously, for a title to be listed in Previews and distributed through Diamond, it had to generate at least $X in sales per issue. In January Diamond announced that the new minimum would be two and a half times the old minimum.

This severely hampers the ability for new talent to gain traction and success.

To put this into terms of another industry: this is basically like canceling a TV show if its unadvertised pilot about a new IP without any big names attached doesn't get great ratings.

It is a policy that all but guarantees the failure of emergent talent.

[Astrobot7000]

Oh come on now, Red Mage is not that bad.
Was he not just about to save the world a few comics ago?
In fact, he is the ONLY voice of reason in the group besides Black Mage whose voice of reason is slanted to the T.

Red Mage's flaw seems to be that he idly stands by while his group does terrible things... but at least he tries.

Even Fighter doesn't try.

[Mirai Gen]

It is a policy that all but guarantees the failure of emergent talent.

It's pretty messed up that Diamond and Marvel and DC have effectively teamed up to destroy the comics market.

[Si Civa]

And aren't those companies in a way digging their own grave?
If new talent don't get chance, who will do comics in future for them?

Oh yeah. Comic book movies. They are sticking with those.

[Venath]

I don't really see why so many people are assuming that Sarda is doing this because he's a good guy or because the "Light Warriors" are the end boss. He never actually said that they were the end boss. Instead, he mostly seemed (At least to me) to be responding to Red Mage's claim that he revived them because they were good and BM was evil. It seemed more like a simple correction.

Personally, I think that he expects pretty much all of them to die. My guess is that he's going to use the orbs to summon Chaos somehow (I'm assuming that Chaos, for some reason, is beyond his reach), and expects all of the "Light Warriors" to die in the process of killing Chaos, thus eliminating two of the biggest sources of evil in the comic. Not because he's a hero or anything, but because he's basically the "Guardian of Fate" and his purpose is more or less to make things go down the way they were supposed to go down.

...Or he's just being a jackass. Either one.

[Meister]

"You guys are bad. Just bad. But you are going to die fighting the (end) boss and everyone else will benefit from it, so it's all good. HA!"
My guess is that he's going to use the orbs to summon Chaos somehow (I'm assuming that Chaos, for some reason, is beyond his reach), and expects all of the "Light Warriors" to die in the process of killing Chaos, thus eliminating two of the biggest sources of evil in the comic.
The second theory that ever made a lick of sense around here!

[Kurosen]

And aren't those companies in a way digging their own grave?
In the long term, yes. But any detailed examination of Marvel or DC business practices of the last 5 - 10 years will show that they are only concerned with the short term.

[Murdoch]

Oh come on now, Red Mage is not that bad.
Was he not just about to save the world a few comics ago?
In fact, he is the ONLY voice of reason in the group besides Black Mage whose voice of reason is slanted to the T.

Red Mage's flaw seems to be that he idly stands by while his group does terrible things... but at least he tries.

Even Fighter doesn't try.

Well, he did commit scientific atrocities on chocobos. In general, though, I'd say that Black Mage and Thief are a bad influence on Red Mage.

[Panthera]

....Sarda is obviously lying.... How many times has he been surprised?
At least twice. His words are as trustworthy as red mage's.

I figure he is just a very very VERY powerful wizard, and nothing more.

Oh and lets not forget his blunder at the beginning of the universe.
An all knowing god he is not.

And the idea that he does not need the "light warriors" is laughable.
He finds them far more annoying than amusing.

This is a point I keep being amazed no one else raises. Everyone here keeps saying Sarda is infallible and that there's no way in hell anything could ever gain even the slightest victory over him, but he HAS shown he isn't perfect. Fighter being a Drownball champion confused him enough to take him out of action for several minutes, Ranger's dual wield-dual wield thing surprised him, he's repeatedly expressed surprise over trivial things (all the times he's said some variety of "Oh, you're still here? I would have thought you'd have left by now before I did <insert torture>", he's TRIED to indirectly kill the Light Warriors and then been pissed that his necrophone didn't get a chance to be tested...the guy can be trumped, it's just not easy.

[waw]

Could whoever proposed the theory of the Light Warriors themselves as Chaos have been right after all?

It's the only theory that ever made a lick of sense around here, might as well!


Yeah, like Studboy said, I don't think it's possibly for an indie comic to pick up any more, or maybe any faster, than Robo already does.

in game, it was Lukahn.. who has been mysteriously absent from all of this

EDIT:

And yeah.. Sarda isn't all powerful... he's very powerful, but has flaws and short comings, but getting to one up him in a fight is what seems to be the hard thing to do

[MileHigh]

And aren't those companies in a way digging their own grave?
If new talent don't get chance, who will do comics in future for them?

Oh yeah. Comic book movies. They are sticking with those.

Still waiting for the big screen adaptation of Atomic Robo...

[Odjn]

The phrase "If X wins, then the villains win", where X refers to any group of characters in this comic, is always true.

White Mage, Onion Kid, and the Real Warriors.

[waw]

White Mage, Onion Kid, and the Real Warriors.

Onion Kid's mind is shattered... his heroicness is in no way guaranteed

[Si Civa]

Still waiting for the big screen adaptation of Atomic Robo...

Why people want to see rushed (action) films instead of well paced television program?

But I don't watch TV anymore and it has been couple of years since I went to cinema anyway. But can I still have an opinion about this, pretty please?

[Panthera]

White Mage, Onion Kid, and the Real Warriors.

The Real Warriors are dead and inept (also, what kind of jackass puts off saving the world to grind?), and as I mentioned earlier, White Mage created this universe. Look at how craptastic it is. She's clearly the worst of them all.

[Moogleking]

in game, it was Lukahn.. who has been mysteriously absent from all of this

EDIT:

And yeah.. Sarda isn't all powerful... he's very powerful, but has flaws and short comings, but getting to one up him in a fight is what seems to be the hard thing to do

"Expressed as a mathematical symbol is power would be equal to infinty -1"

Forgot the exact comic, but there ya go. -1.

[Bard The 5th LW]

WHAT A TWIST!!!!!!!!!

[Neni]

Well, that was the MOST development, I've ever seen in an 8bit comic.

Does that make the Light-warriors(minus Fighter) Chaos?

Awww, Fighter just happens to be there as a poor, innocent victim of the other's evil, having good intentions...

...
Why am I suddenly tempted to pair him up with White Mage?

[Si Civa]

...
Why am I suddenly tempted to pair him up with White Mage?

Because you want to forget this (http://nuklearpedia.com/doku.php?id=colors_of_magic_colors_of_love).

But the true beauty lies not in the love but in the swords.
Sadly, they happen to be phallic, but hey, that's life for ya.

[Neni]

Because you want to forget this (http://nuklearpedia.com/doku.php?id=colors_of_magic_colors_of_love).

But the true beauty lies not in the love but in the swords.
Sadly, they happen to be phallic, but hey, that's life for ya.

DARN YOU for reminding me! ><
Need...
Brain bleach....

[Fifthfiend]

Every so often I get a tiny twinge of pride when I reflect on the beauty I've brought into this world.

[Zinos]

Sarda's a nice person...

...yea right...

[AngelFoodBB]

I love it when people fall back on something like "stalling for time" as opposed to "successfully stumping me as it's intended" when they can't figure out what's happening in a story written to defy figuring out what's happening.

What I like most about writing is giving an audience a new or unpredictable experience because they are so goddamned rare any more. We're all conditioned by blind adherence to tropes and predictable storylines because we get most of our stories in the modern era from television shows, movies, and books. It so happens that the producers of television, movies, and books are (generally) too terrified to give you anything new because that would represent a risk. Why give an audience something it hasn't proven to already enjoy, after all, when it's much easier to bet your job on the fact that they'll like what they already liked. This isn't some kind of punk rock anti-corporate screed, it's just the reality of modern storytelling. I'm one of those lucky creators who can afford to do whatever crazy/stupid thing he wants because no one's demanding a multi-million dollar return on a multi-million dollar investment.

I love it when creators make up excuses for not making sense then fall back on "I R BEING CREATIVE" when someone mentions it. No Brian, "LOL RANDUM" is not rare, especially on The Internet, more so with internet comics, but at least when their creators do it they don't try to claim they're doing anything other than not making sense; and then claim their methods were too deep for the person to get.

Why not just admit your methods are random and not making any sense, even for you, instead of putting up some fake image of being a literary artist by trying to make us see something that isn't there?

You have characters with already established personalities suddenly do something OOC and then have one who wants them all dead bring two of them back for no reason. You did it simply to not make sense and fuck with us and now you're trying to claim you had some grand reason for this and anyone who thinks you didn't just make a lick of sense just doesn't "get it." It's like I'm in my high school Introduction to Art class all over again.

[Kurosen]

Please continue to post so you can go "Oh" when it makes sense.

[POS Industries]

White Mage, Onion Kid, and the Real Warriors.
Bitch, future sociopath, stupid dicks.

[MileHigh]

I love it when creators make up excuses for not making sense then fall back on "I R BEING CREATIVE" when someone mentions it. No Brian, "LOL RANDUM" is not rare, especially on The Internet, more so with internet comics, but at least when their creators do it they don't try to claim they're doing anything other than not making sense; and then claim their methods were too deep for the person to get.

Why not just admit your methods are random and not making any sense, even for you, instead of putting up some fake image of being a literary artist by trying to make us see something that isn't there?

You have characters with already established personalities suddenly do something OOC and then have one who wants them all dead bring two of them back for no reason. You did it simply to not make sense and fuck with us and now you're trying to claim you had some grand reason for this and anyone who thinks you didn't just make a lick of sense just doesn't "get it." It's like I'm in my high school Introduction to Art class all over again.

So where are your grand literary works that give you the right to criticize someone elses work? I'd tell you to not read it if you don't like it, but you know as well as I do that everyone in this forum wants to see how this ends.

When it gets right down to it, it ends how it ends and everyone moves on. Except for the kind of people who still whine about how much the last two Matrix movies sucked.

[Fifthfiend]

So where are your grand literary works that give you the right to criticize someone elses work?

It's really more than enough to point out that AngelFood's criticisms are effin' stoopid without resorting to fallacies like this one.

And the last two Matrix movies totally suck.

[Kurosen]

No, he has every right to speak his mind.

I just find it funny that he thinks what I'm doing is "random" when it's been part of the plan for years and especially in light that it'll make sense pretty soon. Double-especially because my explanation that it's been part of a plan for years, is exactly what I've always been doing, as well as why I do it, and that it'll make sense soon sent him into a screed.

[justice~!]

I love it when creators make up excuses for not making sense then fall back on "I R BEING CREATIVE" when someone mentions it. No Brian, "LOL RANDUM" is not rare, especially on The Internet, more so with internet comics, but at least when their creators do it they don't try to claim they're doing anything other than not making sense; and then claim their methods were too deep for the person to get.

Why not just admit your methods are random and not making any sense, even for you, instead of putting up some fake image of being a literary artist by trying to make us see something that isn't there?

You have characters with already established personalities suddenly do something OOC and then have one who wants them all dead bring two of them back for no reason. You did it simply to not make sense and fuck with us and now you're trying to claim you had some grand reason for this and anyone who thinks you didn't just make a lick of sense just doesn't "get it." It's like I'm in my high school Introduction to Art class all over again.

If this were say, 24, where the writer(s) had an established history of that kind of thing happening (e.g. Telling people it will all make sense in the end but finishing stories with plotlines that *don't* make sense or involve people being way OORC), I'd agree.

What previous history of doing this has Brian displayed that makes you think this will happen here? I mean, he has been doing it for over 1000 episodes now.

[Fifthfiend]

No, he has every right to speak his mind.

I just find it funny that he thinks what I'm doing is "random" when it's been part of the plan for years and especially in light that it'll make sense pretty soon.

What I find funny is where he accuses you of 'tricking people into thinking you're a literary artist'.

[Diablohockey]

idk if this has been posted...
but the "to" in the 6th box is misspelled... its supposed to be too!!!!
just thought id register and mention that :D

[Fifthfiend]

idk if this has been posted...
but the "to" in the 6th box is misspelled... its supposed to be too!!!!
just thought id register and mention that :D

You're my new favorite. :)

We're going to start a club.

[Kurosen]

The Ugly People Club. Fifthfiend is president for life.

LITERARY GENIUS BURN.

[POS Industries]

What I find funny is where he accuses you of 'tricking people into thinking you're a literary artist'.
That and the ever-popular idea that Clevinger's actively trying to make the comic go on forever because it's apparently some sort of goldmine as opposed to a major hindrance on the actual furthering of his career is always good for a laugh.

[Meister]

The Ugly People Club. Fifthfiend is president for life.
Oscar Wilde would be proud.

[Kroze Gamegod]

Except for the kind of people who still whine about how much the last two Matrix movies sucked.

And the last two Matrix movies totally suck.

But... the last two Matrix movies were pretty good...
I mean even Dragonball couldn't get their own superhuman flying fighting sequence correct and here Matrix Revolutions got it completely correct!
And besides, who doesn't like hawt mecha on robotic squid action??
Those movies were totally rad!

[Fifthfiend]

The Ugly People Club. Fifthfiend is president for life.

LITERARY GENIUS BURN.

Not one mistake! Somebody figured out how to use a spellchecker!

[Kurosen]

You only think there are mistakes because you can't read the real meaning.

GENIUS!

[stefan]

I think the best flaw of sarda's argument is that pretty much every living thing in the 8-bit universe is as evil and/or dickish as the lightwarriors themselves are, just on a smaller, less-enabled scale. does he have some plan to kill everything and start over from scratch, or what?

[Jadenik]

Brain's a genius.

[AngelFoodBB]

Please continue to post so you can go "Oh" when it makes sense.

You mean when you make something up so it makes sense and pretend you've had this all planned out years ago?

[Kurosen]

Wow, dude. You sure do get internet angry over being wrong :\

That's a fairly amazing position you've adopted though. Either what happens next makes no sense, therefore I don't know what I'm doing. Or what happens next makes sense therefore I don't know what I'm doing. Bravo.

[Masam]

Ok, I haven't been on in about a year. (damned real life) But the way Brian has been jerking us around at the end, has made me come back and tell him how much I enjoy the comic. Despite the fact I have no idea what's going on.

And to the Angel, your comments have now entered the realm of trolling, I suggest composing yourself and attempting to speak in a civilized manner. Seeing as how I've been reading this for a long time, the topic that brian is making it up as he goes has come up quite often. It's nothing new. and so what if he is? If he can do that, AND make the plot fit together in such a way that the audience enjoys it and continues reading it, he's done his job hasn't he? He's writing a humor comic. And while I'm well aware of the fact that humor has often times been used to energize socio-political movements, I'm fairly certain that Brian isn't trying to tell us the government is secretly planning on irradicating all of us because it deems us evil...

...

or is it??

[waw]

You mean when you make something up so it makes sense and pretend you've had this all planned out years ago?

I like to see people stand up with a rebellious stance, it's very enjoyable in my opinion, you get to see new opinions and arguments.

But Angel... if I may... you need to take a step back and examine stories. All of them.

For those with twists and surprises towards the end (many stories), things you don't expect, and that often don't make sense, have to happen. This confusion allows for a 'reveal' at the end, which explains what happened.

Watch the Prestige, it's a magician movie that doesn't entirely make sense until the end. The Prestige, what you see in a magic trick (as opposed to what really happens). A magic trick you see a set up (beginning of a story) the magictrick/prestige (climax) and unlike a magic trick, but like a story, the ending nearly always carries a reveal, explaining the plot holes that weren't filled.

This isn't all that random either... you know how many users have been posting that something like this would happen? I can't count how many times i've read that the Light Warriors are Chaos/evil and that sarda would revive everyone just to be a jackass

[Fifthfiend]

make something up so it makes sense

You should try doing this when you post.

[Mesden]

You mean when you make something up so it makes sense and pretend you've had this all planned out years ago?

Haha, wow.

Are your parents blood related?

[Venath]

I feel compelled to comment on a couple of the claims here:

First off, the comment earlier asking "where are your literary works that give you the right to..." and so on and so forth. I'd like to point out that you don't need to be good at something to be capable of criticizing it. I'm far from an amazing chef, but I'm still going to call the chef of a fine restaurant on it if I find roaches in my soup. I'm no actor, but that doesn't prevent me from questioning the the quality of a certain actor's performance. Likewise, he certainly doesn't have to be a writer to criticize the comic.

Second, in Clevinger's defense, I have to mention Angel's logical errors. Your point has essentially consisted of:

- He's making this up as he goes along and doing a poor job. If he says he hasn't been, then he has been. If he says he has been, then he has been. If the ending makes sense with the rest of the story, then he just changed it so that it would look like he's been planning it and he's done a poor job. If the ending doesn't make sense with the rest of the story, then he's done a poor job.

You have essentially made it impossible for him to have done a good job in your eyes on the basis that no matter what he has or hasn't done, he has done a poor job. And while you're certainly entitled to do so, it doesn't seem very reasonable. Why should we doubt that he has planned these recent events out? And if he hasn't, why should it matter as long as it's entertaining for the readers (Which is really the purpose of creating such a comic in the first place)?

[Revdarian]

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm


That sums it up, no matter what one says, it won't get through :-) so just pay no mind to him.

[Molotovich]

Wow, dude. You sure do get internet angry over being wrong :\

That's a fairly amazing position you've adopted though. Either what happens next makes no sense, therefore I don't know what I'm doing. Or what happens next makes sense therefore I don't know what I'm doing. Bravo.

Yup, you cant never please'em enough. (BTW. I still think its just brilliant what you are doing):D

[Dracorion]

Clearly, Brian is dragging the comic along to draw in as much of an audience as he can and in turn draw them toward his other works.

But no, really, I am profoundly enjoying the comics end even if I can't make sense of what the shit happening.

[Fifthfiend]

But you know the thing I can't figure out about people being so mad about this episode in particular is that it's probably less nonsensical than pretty much any other thing that's ever happened in this comic. God help me for saying anything nice about Brian Clevinger's Ongoing Train-Wreck of Words but it was actually a really well-executed twist in terms of being unexpected yet making perfect sense in terms of the characters, events, direction and tone of the story.

I mean if you want to complain about Clevinger Jossing Black Belt (twice) then sure I can get behind that but the Light Warriors being the endgame villains is probably the single most logical outcome of anything ever to occur in 8-bit. (So much so that I'm like 99% sure it's getting immediately takebacksed but w/ev.)

[Molotovich]

Mmmmm may I suggest a little of "Gladiatoral Debate" about the "light" warriors if they are the endboss or not.

BTW I think I have the most logical and satisfactory answer to what happened in this last one (or why the jackass revived the fallen)

They were debating, and, as far as i know, the warriors have proven their point.

Now... to the end of the "End of the world tour" featuring the "Light" Warriors

[Grognor]

This is certain: we can't know if Brian truly has this all planned out. Not planning webcomics out is a sure sign of incompetence, so if he had not planned all this then he surely would lie about it to cover that up. If he had all this planned, out, then he would simply tell everyone that and be indifferent to those who don't believe him.

From my point of view, it sure seems like the comic is being made up on the spot. Darko, Swordopolis, 434, those dreams, Black Mage's speech on how order is not necessarily better than chaos (with a lowercase "c") all had no buildup, and it seems to me that Brian could have been simply elaborating on these formerly non sequitur foreshadowings. Even I thought there were big things in store for Dragoon when he said he "really did" need his spear and confronted Sarda. Maybe the spear was going to be a powerful artifact necessary in the final battle. Maybe it was a throwaway gag. It turned out to be the latter, just like everything else could have.

But intuition is often wrong, and so for the purposes of finding out The Truth we must compose a scientific experiment. To find out whether the webcomic is planned, as Brian claims, we must dig deeper: we must figure out if Brian is, in fact, a liar. The independent variable here will be whether or not Brian is a liar. I propose the following question for Brian to answer, providing that he is willing to participate in the experiment.

Brian, if you were not a liar, then would you say that you have been planning this comic the whole time if you had not been planning this comic the whole time?


For the purposes of scientific accuracy, I ask that you answer this question no less than ten (10) times so as to average out the data. For the purposes of controlling confounding variables, I also ask that you answer this question at the same time of day at each answering, at the same temperature, in the same mood, on the same day of the week, and having eaten the same food prior. Thank you for your participation.



...




One potential thing no one else seemed to notice is that Fighter seemed happy ("Yay!") about the fact that Black Mage would die while he still thought he wouldn't die. This may or may not solidify the fact that he no longer likes Black Mage, a theory I wasn't a fan of until he drew his swords after being revived.

[justice~!]

I feel compelled to comment on a couple of the claims here:

You have essentially made it impossible for him to have done a good job in your eyes on the basis that no matter what he has or hasn't done, he has done a poor job. And while you're certainly entitled to do so, it doesn't seem very reasonable. Why should we doubt that he has planned these recent events out? And if he hasn't, why should it matter as long as it's entertaining for the readers (Which is really the purpose of creating such a comic in the first place)?

I asked the same question and failed to get an answer so I'm presuming "troll", but I haven't been around the forums long enough to know...

[Revdarian]

Yup he is a troll, Ferrous Cranus style, hence my link.


In any case it is making sense for me, the story i mean.


Sarda hasn't said that they are the end boss, and the way he speaks, well, "Everyone else" could just as well mean "Sarda's own sanity", but since he is the Guardian of Fate (thx White Mage), he can't kill them, and actually needs them alive as it is fated for them to do the final battle against Chaos, who or whatever it turns out to be.

BTW i <3 Sarda Speak... crazy yet somehow meaningful hehe...


PS: How are the bets on Onion Kid being turned into Chaos?

[Kurosen]

I've had the major events planned for a long time. The specific path to those events is made up on the spot, though in accord with the overall plan...which doesn't always make sense because I'm addicted to playing jokes on the audience.

[tshadowdrag]

I've had the major events planned for a long time. The specific path to those events is made up on the spot, though in accord with the overall plan...which doesn't always make sense because I'm addicted to playing jokes on the audience.

I smell an off day! No but seriously the whole thing adds up logically and satisfactory. You're going to love or hate whatever the twists and turns go but overall the whole thing makes sense no matter how the outcome was brought for each episode.

It's like the old saying of getting upset with only reading half the story and slamming the book shut without reading the rest, you might be pleasantly surprised by the outcome.

The last panel was win and sorely missed. Yay for Fighter being a casualty!

[lackofsense]

But... the last two Matrix movies were pretty good...
I mean even Dragonball couldn't get their own superhuman flying fighting sequence correct and here Matrix Revolutions got it completely correct!
And besides, who doesn't like hawt mecha on robotic squid action??
Those movies were totally rad!

It is physically impossible for someone to see in "electricity".

[russianreversal]

AngelFood, you're one of those people who says that writers aren't allowed to define the meaning of their own works for everybody else, aren't you? Can you do that one bit where you say everybody's entitled to a say as to how a work in progress should continue? That one always cracks me up.

Ooh, ooh! Or how about the one where you say that because virtually all literature today uses age old tropes that contemporary works aren't original? Classic. Colors of Magic, Colors of Love What. The. Fuck.

[Codemonkey85]

...the Light Warriors being the endgame villains is probably the single most logical outcome of anything ever to occur in 8-bit. (So much so that I'm like 99% sure it's getting immediately takebacksed but w/ev.)

I hate to argue, but I really don't think the Light Warriors were stated to be the endgame villains. I'm pretty sure Sarda was just making a statement to clarify that BM is no more evil than the other Light Warriors (minus Fighter of course). Of course, if it turns out I'm wrong and they are the villains, I can see why that makes sense... I personally am not into that idea as much as everyone else though. But what happens happens.

We must figure out if Brian is, in fact, a liar.

Not hard to do, considering he said he was. BUT WAIT... HE COULD HAVE BEEN LYING ABOUT THAT TOO!

Angel, if you think Brian is making stuff up as he goes and doing a crappy job of it, maybe you should take a look at the ending to Bob & George (http://www.bobandgeorge.com/archives/070728). Dave Anez (the author) was basically the father of sprite comics, having put his out there even before Brian, but I think you'll find by comparison that Brian was always the more competent writer.

You'll also see that Brian is a far bigger jerk to his audience. But he's basically beaten most of us into submission by now. :(

Anyway, Dave regularly admitted (and relished) the fact that he made stuff up as he went, and it worked out all right sometimes. But you could always see where things didn't necessarily make sense, or fit with the characters, and the jokes were often not very funny. No offense to Dave! His dedication in updating a comic every day was pretty astounding.

My point is, there's no real reason to think that Brian is lying about planning the story out in advance, and even if he is, he's doing a pretty damn good job at it. So what's the fuss?

[Curien]

The Ugly People Club. Fifthfiend is president for life.

LITERARY GENIUS BURN.

bahaha

*looks forward to more literary genius burns* :)

[Kim]

This latest comic is probably my favorite one since we last saw Warmech. I also realized the fallacy in my thinking it would end Nuklear Age style. Or at least, I think I did.

The Light Warriors aren't really likable characters. I mean, I like them as characters, and they make me laugh, but all their flaws make it impossible for me to actually like them. I have similar feelings on Travis Touchdown from No More Heroes. He's one of my favorite video game characters of all time, but he's still an unlikable douchebag. If he died, yeah I'd be upset that he was dead, but I can't really see it evoking any sort of sadness/pity in reaction. The Light Warriors are the same way. If they died, I wouldn't really feel bad for them. In contrast, I actually liked the heroes of Nuklear Age, especially Atomik Lad, which made the ending actually have some emotional force.

In conclusion: I AM THE DUMB NONCON HURHURHUR.

[El Mullet]

One potential thing no one else seemed to notice is that Fighter seemed happy ("Yay!") about the fact that Black Mage would die while he still thought he wouldn't die. This may or may not solidify the fact that he no longer likes Black Mage, a theory I wasn't a fan of until he drew his swords after being revived.

I sorta got a simple "Yay, I'm not a horrible monster!" vibe out of that one, rather than a "Yay, every one of my friends and travelling companions is going to die a fiery, horrible death!" vibe. I would assume that would be Fighter's gut reaction, as he's the only one who seems to care about being an actual hero, rather than using his Light Warrior position to manipulate the world in some twisted way. I mean, if I got an A grade in something while all others around you got F-'s, I would go "YAY FOR ME!" before consoling my friends about their F-'s.

[Chimaera132]

I don't see why it would be so hard to believe what Brian said. I mean when you look at the grand scheme of the comic it pretty much makes sense. It wouldn't be that hard for him to have made an outline and follow that to its conclusion. It doesn't matter if you don't think how he got from A to B makes sense rather that he got from A to B.

Personally, I love the comic and people are here should just appreciate that someone goes out of their way to be entertaining to us 2-3 times a week. Not many other people can make the same claim.

[PurpleMage]

And now as we head towards that ever closer ending I remember all the guess work this forum has seen. Man, I'm gonna miss it!

[Fenris]

And now as we head towards that ever closer ending I remember all the guess work this forum has seen. Man, I'm gonna miss it!
Warbot's gonna talk any day now!

[MileHigh]

I'm far from an amazing chef, but I'm still going to call the chef of a fine restaurant on it if I find roaches in my soup.

I don't think this is a "roaches in the soup" situation, he is saying he doesn't like the taste of the soup, and is accusing the chef of randomly putting in whatever ingredients he feels like and calling it edible. If you don't like the soup, don't eat it, but if everyone else in the restaurant is enjoying the soup you might want to second guess yourself before you try and tell the chef how to do his job.

[Meister]

What I don't get is why so many people spend more time debating the chef's character than just enjoying the soup.

AngelFood, you're one of those people who says that writers aren't allowed to define the meaning of their own works for everybody else, aren't you? Can you do that one bit where you say everybody's entitled to a say as to how a work in progress should continue?
Ah yes, I too remember Silver Rose.

[Si Civa]

I've had the major events planned for a long time. The specific path to those events is made up on the spot, though in accord with the overall plan...which doesn't always make sense because I'm addicted to playing jokes on the audience.

What I don't get is that why haven't some people get that.
Also, when you think about it, Pratchett's writing is similiar. Jokes, gags fucking everywhere.
And sometimes the plot doesn't make sense until you get it.

And..
Every so often I get a tiny twinge of pride when I reflect on the beauty I've brought into this world.

Everybody else is wearing sunglasses Fifth.
I mean, we do look at the light, but we're still scared about it. But only a little bit!

[russianreversal]

It is physically impossible for someone to see in "electricity". Wait a second... lackofsense? Did you really make an account just to make that point? I mean, I can totally get behind ruining people's movies in the name of fun, but damn. There's so much more that doesn't make sense with the matrix, seeing in electricity is the least of its problems.

On another note, I like how BM is the only one who ever has expressions beyond his sprite's capabilities.

[Cap'n Treacherous]

What I don't get is why so many people spend more time debating the chef's character than just enjoying the soup.

If the chef would let me have the damn soup, maybe I wouldn't spend time assessing his character.

ba dum psh

[Loyal]

If the chef would let me have the damn soup, maybe I wouldn't spend time assessing his character.He shoots, he scores!

[Meister]

"This isn't even real soup, he just threw a bunch of vegetables together that someone else grew!"

[waw]

Uh, the matrix sequels were good, i liked them. That bitch died.

she died!

But uh... ok, criticism

You don't need to be accomplished in anything to criticize. I suck at drawing but I can easily identify what is bad about it and comment about it. Just because I can't do it, doesn't mean I don't know about it.

I do know something about writing, a lot about writing, but I'm far from accomplished.

And I cook all the time, if someone doesn't like my food and they know why, I expect them to tell me (famous Onion accident, I forgot onions and a chick who sucks at cooking KNEW and called me out on it, she noticed the missing taste.)

My point is, everyone in here who has read 1000+comics have the right to comment on if each comic is good or bad and why.

But taking the time to slander or insult Brian because you don't like the work, or you don't get the jokes, or see the logic... that's stupid. 1. You'll lose, this is an area of the web that's mostly dedicated to liking Brian's work... you're just outnumbered. 2. I've seen maybe one near correct assessment of Brian on this site... he's an ass great guy! 3. Forming better arguments than you are would be better than saying what you've said. (this is addressed to the attackers)


You can say you don't like the taste of the soup, you can say that you feel it has random ingredients thrown in that don't go together, but so do a lot of spaghettis, chilis, stews, soups, and the list goes on. No assessment of the food assesses the cook.

[Amake]

I'm just going to quote Neil Gaiman here, about writing monthly comic books, which may as well apply to thrice-weekly webcomics:

"Writing a monthly book is very much a learning experience. You can't appreciate from the ouitside what a complex collage of planning, serendipity and spur-of-the-moment improvisation the whole project becomes."

[Dr. Casey]

God help me for saying anything nice about Brian Clevinger's Ongoing Train-Wreck of Words

I wouldn't say it's a trainwreck. It's more of a relaxing ride through the countryside, a train that I for one will never grow tired of riding.

[Red King]

It's the kind of train wreck that makes you giggle madly all the way up until that piece of iron is that last thing going through your head.


I believe criticism is good. As long as it's constructive. Not a lot of artists(I use that as an encompassing term for, you know. Artists). Can see problems in their work unless it's pointed out. And thus sometimes it can help them grow.

However foaming-at-the-mouth-raving-about-stupid-baseless-opinions is not so helpful, and as I inconspicuously stated above. Stupid.



Yes I mean you.

[Ggolbez]

Why would Sarda bring them back to life just to kill them again?

[tacticslion]

Now edited for space and content!

"This isn't even real soup, he just threw a bunch of vegetables together that someone else grew!"

Geez, Meister, if you don't like what I'm cookin' stay out of the kitchen?*

I hate to argue...

Don't lie. Your a member on these forums. It's the only thing that keeps us going in life.

does he have some plan to kill everything and start over from scratch, or what?

Wasn't that kinda his point for existing? Going back in time to win forever? I mean, sure, he failed (and can't technically do it again unless a paradox occurs), but I could see that happening, couldn't you?

Sarda's a jerk.
This is the guy whos word you are going to trust?

Yes, because he's omnipotent. If he says it, it's true.

People don't seem to realize that 8-Bit Theater is draining Brian of (what little is left of) his soul. Plus his wallet.

Hah-hah! You presume he has a soul! ... or a wallet! Obviously, he could only "afford" to "eat" (and thus "live") on the salary he made off of 8-Bit because he's (semi-)secretly an undead horror who patrols the streets of Orlando nightly lowering the hobo population for the sake of his continued existance. Probably narrowly avoiding Master Legend.

Now on to the eponymous part of this post:
I don't agree with the author's particular characterizations, and thus they suck. Also I have superior diction to many others, so I'm probably not a troll, please.
I took a class in highschool and it made me smart. See my points?
Other hatreds of things about Brian. With good diction, though!

Nope (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nope).*

I'm betting that the Light Warriors really are the true villains of the comic, and Sarda probably has some reason why he hasn't killed them yet, it might not make any sense but he has a reason. I mean really who else could be the villain? The Light Warriors (minus Fighter) are more evil than anyone else in the comic.

Nope. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2002/06/19/episode-163-king-steve-is-stupid/) (Or, alternatively... Nope. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/10/09/episode-468-hey-laughing-boy/))

Other (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/09/21/episode-460-back-at-the-castle/) evidence (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/11/04/episode-478-king-steve-you-so-crazy/) here. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/11/01/episode-619-waroween/)*


EDIT: Plus it did resolve one thing. It shut people the hell up about 434.

Nope. (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=928412&postcount=6)

In conclusion: I AM THE DUMB NONCON HURHURHUR.

Truer words have only been spoken when people verbally and linguistic-geniusly (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=931530&postcount=110)*** abuse Fifthfiend.****

Also, while thumbing through things, I suppose the reason the world is so messed up is that White Mage accidentally suggested it (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/12/23/episode-495-the-answer-is-eight/).

*Ooh, ooh! I remember Silver Rose too!
**On a related note, I thought the punchline of this comic was the captain saying he loved his job. Was that changed?
***It's a real word! I'm sure of it!
****Note: I actually have no problem with NonCon. He just kinda wandered into that one.

[Nuklear Waste]

Why would Sarda bring them back to life just to kill them again?
I think someone may have mentioned it, but he might've meant it as "should die for the good of everyone else." Think of it like this: Someone humourously posts a disgusting image, and then you jokingly say, "You need to die in a horrible fire for the good of everyone else."
Alternatively, he does want them to die, but they still have more to do. Or he wants to get the honors or something.

[Fenris]

"This isn't even real soup, he just threw a bunch of vegetables together that someone else grew!"

"This isn't a real forum, the admin's just using software somebody else made!"

[Tyrfing]

(I'm not reading the whole thread before I post since everytime I do that recently people post 10 more pages while I'm reading)

Huh, I was thinking that Sarda was the end boss, and he resurrected the "heroes" so that they could do things properly.

It's interesting that in Sarda's mind they're worse than him.

[Archbio]

AngelFood, you're one of those people who says that writers aren't allowed to define the meaning of their own works for everybody else, aren't you?

I think there are less problems with that approach to interpretation than with the reverse, in principle. Otherwise a work can remain unchanged to the word and change meaning while the author grows older.

Just saying.

[tacticslion]

I think there are less problems with that approach to interpretation than with the reverse, in principle. Otherwise a work can remain unchanged to the word and change meaning while the author grows older.

Just saying.

Actually the reverse is true. When you have a work looked at by someone other than the writer of the work, most people come up with individual interpretations of that very work. Unless the author's intent is clear, you end up with many different stories, lessons, ideas, and occasionally things that are the opposite of the original intention.

When, however, you have the author's direct word on something, and that person defines what it is they wrote you have crystal clarity, something that everyone should be able to agree on - after all, they were the ones with the ideas when they first wrote it, not those who came later. The reason for the work was their intention - not the intention of the readers. That's what makes them the writer. It's literally their own work, thus what they say about it's meaning (unless purposefully decieving others which is pointless) is inherently accurate.

If the author is silent about their work, then it is fully open to interpretation, or if the author opens it to the interpretation of others. The point here, isn't how the author feels now, nor what they think of it at this time. The point is the thoughts and ideas of what they meant at the time of writing.

The only exceptions to this I find valid are in terms of expanded worlds more fully established by other authors and accepted and ratified by the original author. As an example: Star Wars; George can say whatever he wants about it now, but he's previously accepted things that are invalidated by the newer things he's also accepting. This is a relatively rare case when the original author's opinion is unjustified and incorrect as it directly contradicts itself because of the accepted influence of other authors.

[Codemonkey85]

Don't lie. Your a member on these forums. It's the only thing that keeps us going in life.

That and making fun of Brian. Like this: Brian's a doofus!

Also, while thumbing through things, I suppose the reason the world is so messed up is that White Mage accidentally suggested it (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/12/23/episode-495-the-answer-is-eight/)

Yes, Brian mentioned (in the Connecticon '08 8-Bit panel) that that would be important somehow. I keep forgetting about it.

I can't wait to see WM's reaction when (or if) she ever realizes how much she is responsible for. Ouch.

[Murdoch]

Actually the reverse is true. When you have a work looked at by someone other than the writer of the work, most people come up with individual interpretations of that very work. Unless the author's intent is clear, you end up with many different stories, lessons, ideas, and occasionally things that are the opposite of the original intention.

When, however, you have the author's direct word on something, and that person defines what it is they wrote you have crystal clarity, something that everyone should be able to agree on - after all, they were the ones with the ideas when they first wrote it, not those who came later. The reason for the work was their intention - not the intention of the readers. That's what makes them the writer. It's literally their own work, thus what they say about it's meaning (unless purposefully decieving others which is pointless) is inherently accurate.

If the author is silent about their work, then it is fully open to interpretation, or if the author opens it to the interpretation of others. The point here, isn't how the author feels now, nor what they think of it at this time. The point is the thoughts and ideas of what they meant at the time of writing.

The only exceptions to this I find valid are in terms of expanded worlds more fully established by other authors and accepted and ratified by the original author. As an example: Star Wars; George can say whatever he wants about it now, but he's previously accepted things that are invalidated by the newer things he's also accepting. This is a relatively rare case when the original author's opinion is unjustified and incorrect as it directly contradicts itself because of the accepted influence of other authors.

Uh, no.

Guns 'n Roses has this song called Think About You which I've always considered a love song, because...well, that's exactly what it appears to be. More recently, I've read that the song was actually written about drugs. It was a love letter to heroin.

Does that mean that I have to think about drugs when I listen to it? Not at all. I listen to it and hear a love song. That's what it is to me, and I really don't care what was intended, because I don't treat songs as conversations with the artists.

Brian Clevinger owns 8-Bit, sure. It's his in that he makes what money there is to make. It's his in that he can add whatever comics he wants and end it whenever he wants. What he does not own is my reaction to it. Now, it would be silly of me to say, "Instead of Black Belt dying, he flew home in his spaceship and married Salma Hayek," because that contradicts what's actually there on the screen.

However, once Brian puts the comic out there, it's out there. It's something separate from him and open to interpretation. That's how art/entertainment works. He can't dictate what readers think and feel about it. If after ending the comic, he realizes that he forgot to mention that BM is a Fighter clone, he can't simply say that it's true on the forum and expect everyone to buy into it, because his word and 8-Bit are not one and the same.

[El Mullet]

However, once Brian puts the comic out there, it's out there. It's something separate from him and open to interpretation. That's how art/entertainment works. He can't dictate what readers think and feel about it. If after ending the comic, he realizes that he forgot to mention that BM is a Fighter clone, he can't simply say that it's true on the forum and expect everyone to buy into it, because his word and 8-Bit are not one and the same.

Things like this happened before in print media. Remember the big uproar when J. K. Rowling said that Professor Dumbledor (sp?) was gay? The revelation came well after the seventh (and final) Harry Potter book was released, and there was very little evidence in any of the books to support it. Rowling dictated how to perceive the Dumbledor character to any readers and would-be readers of the book with this action. Without it, I don't think ANYONE would even think to CONCEIVE of this character trait (except for the tinfoil-hat wearing conspiricy theorists).

Granted people accepted this a bit more readily considering (1) homosexuality is a hot-button issue in today's media, and (2) the character in question is in a mega-popular children's book series. Plus its not as farfetched as the example quoted above. But it has happened. And if Brian were to come out six months after 8-Bit ended and claim that White Mage was secretly attracted the Black Mage in the dark recesses of her mind (as a pure example, nothing more), it would be his right to do so. We may choose to believe it. We may not. He would be offering additional context to his work; much like Rowling for the Harry Potter books.

(On a side note, I don't wish to have this thread devolve into a gay/anti-gay thread for citing this example. I make no claims to either argument here, just giving the fact that the media blows the issue out of proportion.)

[cwDeici]

Uh, no.

Guns 'n Roses has this song called Think About You which I've always considered a love song, because...well, that's exactly what it appears to be. More recently, I've read that the song was actually written about drugs. It was a love letter to heroin.

Does that mean that I have to think about drugs when I listen to it? Not at all. I listen to it and hear a love song. That's what it is to me, and I really don't care what was intended, because I don't treat songs as conversations with the artists.

Brian Clevinger owns 8-Bit, sure. It's his in that he makes what money there is to make. It's his in that he can add whatever comics he wants and end it whenever he wants. What he does not own is my reaction to it. Now, it would be silly of me to say, "Instead of Black Belt dying, he flew home in his spaceship and married Salma Hayek," because that contradicts what's actually there on the screen.

However, once Brian puts the comic out there, it's out there. It's something separate from him and open to interpretation. That's how art/entertainment works. He can't dictate what readers think and feel about it. If after ending the comic, he realizes that he forgot to mention that BM is a Fighter clone, he can't simply say that it's true on the forum and expect everyone to buy into it, because his word and 8-Bit are not one and the same.

Which is why I think they are the Light Warriors.

I think Brian is a genious though (and I'm in a good position to say so myself), and obviously he has a plan, that's scintillatingly clear... just as it is that he makes some of the stuff up.

I've come to adore him and his work after 434 and finding out about Bard. I have... vague unconfirmed memories of Red Thief/Ninja... nah, probably never saw it myself.

[Chocobo]

Which is why I think they are the Light Warriors.

I think Brian is a genious though (and I'm in a good position to say so myself), and obviously he has a plan, that's scintillatingly clear... just as it is that he makes some of the stuff up.

I've come to adore him and his work after 434 and finding out about Bard. I have... vague unconfirmed memories of Red Thief/Ninja... nah, probably never saw it myself.

you do know that was a joke right

[Kurosen]

he flew home in his spaceship and married Salma Hayek,"
This is how I hope to go out.

[russianreversal]

Brian Clevinger owns 8-Bit, sure. It's his in that he makes what money there is to make. It's his in that he can add whatever comics he wants and end it whenever he wants. What he does not own is my reaction to it. Now, it would be silly of me to say, "Instead of Black Belt dying, he flew home in his spaceship and married Salma Hayek," because that contradicts what's actually there on the screen.

However, once Brian puts the comic out there, it's out there. It's something separate from him and open to interpretation. That's how art/entertainment works. He can't dictate what readers think and feel about it. If after ending the comic, he realizes that he forgot to mention that BM is a Fighter clone, he can't simply say that it's true on the forum and expect everyone to buy into it, because his word and 8-Bit are not one and the same. Someone else's interpretation of a work can certainly stray from the author's original intended purpose, but most people reading 8-Bit and subsequently posting on these forums like to argue not in opinions, but in cold, hard (and almost always false) facts. That's the point I was making.

Now, on the subject of interpretation, while no one literally has a more correct opinion on a subject, the artist's interpretation is still the one that holds the most weight, being the most knowledgeable about the subject. If I were to tell you what you REALLY meant when you said something, you'd probably be insulted, or at least a little taken aback that I would have the gall to say I know your actual intentions better than you do, and rightfully so.

It's like (forgive me but I only have food on the mind right now) me creating a lentil soup, and you saying it tastes like beets to you. I can't say you're wrong (though suggesting that your senses might be out of whack is perfectly within reason), but when insinuate that I was actually trying to make borscht and just called it lentil soup I can certainly call you out on being full of it. I know what I put in my goddamn soup thank you very much and it was lentils.

[Red King]

I hope to go out by saving the earth from the inevitable robot and/or alien and/or zombie invasion by riding the unguided nuclear bomb right into their main base/mothership/majority. Like that guy from Independence Day, except instead of sitting in a plane seat, I'm riding bareback. On the bomb.

(Damnit, I almost spelled that "Nuklear". Thanks Brian. )

[Panthera]

Actually the reverse is true. When you have a work looked at by someone other than the writer of the work, most people come up with individual interpretations of that very work. Unless the author's intent is clear, you end up with many different stories, lessons, ideas, and occasionally things that are the opposite of the original intention.

When, however, you have the author's direct word on something, and that person defines what it is they wrote you have crystal clarity, something that everyone should be able to agree on - after all, they were the ones with the ideas when they first wrote it, not those who came later. The reason for the work was their intention - not the intention of the readers. That's what makes them the writer. It's literally their own work, thus what they say about it's meaning (unless purposefully decieving others which is pointless) is inherently accurate.

If the author is silent about their work, then it is fully open to interpretation, or if the author opens it to the interpretation of others. The point here, isn't how the author feels now, nor what they think of it at this time. The point is the thoughts and ideas of what they meant at the time of writing.

The only exceptions to this I find valid are in terms of expanded worlds more fully established by other authors and accepted and ratified by the original author. As an example: Star Wars; George can say whatever he wants about it now, but he's previously accepted things that are invalidated by the newer things he's also accepting. This is a relatively rare case when the original author's opinion is unjustified and incorrect as it directly contradicts itself because of the accepted influence of other authors.

The author has the ultimate say over what is canon and what message they WANTED to send, but they can't control what message they DID send. As a silly example, say someone wanted to argue that Black Mage was actually just misunderstood, and say they went through the archives and found a ton of evidence to support the idea that he's only violent in response to threats to his livelihood (this isn't the case, but suppose it was). Even if Brian's intent was to show BM is evil for escalating his retaliation so much, this person could argue the opposite. Basically, once something is made, if you see something that isn't what the author intended but DOES hold up to scrutiny, there's no one to say that isn't a real part of the work.

[Eldezar]

I hope to go out by saving the earth from the inevitable robot and/or alien and/or zombie invasion by riding the unguided nuclear bomb right into their main base/mothership/majority. Like that guy from Independence Day, except instead of sitting in a plane seat, I'm riding bareback. On the bomb.

(Damnit, I almost spelled that "Nuklear". Thanks Brian. )

When the government stops covering up alien existence, it won't be an invasion. Think of it more like the recent South Park episode or the way Futurama works as opposed to Alien, Predator or Independence Day. If aliens, or at least the ones we've been in contact with, were hostile, then we would have been long gone by now. Robots can be prevented, but that is not likely to be for quite some time. If the zombie invasion were tomorrow, though, I'd be ready. Not tonight, cuz I'd be sleepin.

Question: Is the thread title quoting Fighter or BM?

[Kim]

I actually have no problem with NonCon.

Then you haven't read enough of my posts.

[lackofsense]

Wait a second... lackofsense? Did you really make an account just to make that point? I mean, I can totally get behind ruining people's movies in the name of fun, but damn. There's so much more that doesn't make sense with the matrix, seeing in electricity is the least of its problems.

On another note, I like how BM is the only one who ever has expressions beyond his sprite's capabilities.

I made the account for a purpose that was lost during the 2 days it took for the registration e-mail to reach my inbox

Anyway, I can't wait for the next comic. Brian's work is indeed awesome. I hope that onion kid is related to some kind of universal reconstruction.

[russianreversal]

I made the account for a purpose that was lost during the 2 days it took for the registration e-mail to reach my inbox

Anyway, I can't wait for the next comic. Brian's work is indeed awesome. I hope that onion kid is related to some kind of universal reconstruction. Probably. He'll be the one blamed the next time someone ruins it.

[Molotovich]

Mmmmmmm that makes me think, who is really Black Mage?

I mean, he could simply DESTROY everyone by showing them his face (I mean, he broke onion kid, probably forever, and probably beyond any way of recovery)

Or MAYBE, thats what Sarda is actually Looking for... or worse... BM IS Sarda

Dun dun dun!

[Codemonkey85]

This is how I hope to go out.

I'm sure Mashirosen would love to see this.

he could simply DESTROY everyone by showing them his face (I mean, he broke onion kid, probably forever, and probably beyond any way of recovery)

But his frail self-image won't allow him to do it on purpose.

Anyway, with BM, what you see is what you get basically. He's a jerk. There's no secret there.

[tacticslion]

Then you haven't read enough of my posts.

Oh, right! Sorry. I forgot that once NonCon shows up it ruins it for everybody. And by "it" I mean "everything, ever."

Your wrong!

I respectfully disagree with your disagreements of disagreeing with me! :)

While I understand the nature of what your saying (i.e. "it seems this way to me") the actual work is based off of the author's intents. If the work is purposefully subvertive - that is if it completely represents an idea under false pretenses (such as writing a love song to heroine) - it's meant to be subvertive. That is, it's a work that hides the "truth" in a "lie". In the afore-mentioned case it, yeah it's a song written as a love-poem to heroine... but so what? Heroine is never mentioned in the song. It is, in fact, a "love song". It was written to a very horrible thing, but that doesn't stop it from being what it is, a song written about emotional obsession (often termed "love" in English) and thus, that's what it comes out. Again the "target" of the song is never mentioned until after the fact.

Thus I partially accept the rebuttles. If an author makes claims about part of a message after the fact that may be lost. The work is still built around that premise - it's still part of the themes of the work - but it's done so poorly. If a certain aspect isn't represented within the work, than it's not represented. There is a gap or void of information. The is then work is less-well-made than it seemed. It doesn't mean it's a poor work.

The Harry Potter series was a fun and interesting series, and very well written (although the last one felt a bit... rushed at the end in some places). Dumbledore being "gay" was something that came out of left field. Completely. There was never any real evidence of it at all, unless you count a male being celebate his entire known life "gay". Still, the author wrote (apparently) with that in mind. That was part of Dumbledore's motivations. He is who he is because he (in Rowling's mind) was gay. We weren't privvy to this the entire series... so it's irrelevant. True, perhaps, but it made zero impact on the series, thus irrelevant.

Again, the author is inherently correct (unless intentionally being misleading) in their statements about their own work. People can choose to accept different messages than the ones that were intended. Sometimes an author can make a work poorly enough not to send the message they desire. That doesn't mean they're incorrect. It just means they didn't send the message well.

So to make a long post short ("too late!") Panthera is right. Canon-meaning, original purpose, and actual message is determined solely by the author. Personal understanding is determined by the readers (which is inherent whenever anyone gives anyone else a message). If a message is misinterpreted on a broad scale, the author has failed to send the proper message.

And russianreversal: eat something, man! Sheesh!

[david_in_perth]

...(such as writing a love song to heroine)...yeah it's a song written as a love-poem to heroine... but so what? Heroine is never mentioned in the song...It was written to a very horrible thing...

Heroine (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heroine): A female hero.
...sounds the same as...
Heroin (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heroin): A powerful and addictive drug derived from opium producing intense euphoria classed as a narcotic in most of the world.

I think you meant Heroin rather than Heroine.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Oh.

[david_in_perth]

It's funny, because writing a love song to a heroine would actually be a fairly sensible thing to do...

"Oh, White Mage, you are so brave and wonderful..."

[tacticslion]

Heh, oops. Dyslexia. Apparently it means I suck at spelling. Thanks!

[Fifthfiend]

People can choose to accept different messages than the ones that were intended. Sometimes an author can make a work poorly enough not to send the message they desire. That doesn't mean they're incorrect. It just means they didn't send the message well.

No, it means they're incorrect. If I tell someone to go fuck himself, then turn around later and say oh well what I meant was you're a wonderful person I think highly of, then that doesn't actually make "fuck you" a compliment, I just said something completely different from what I (claim that I) meant to say.

Dumbledore being gay isn't much of an example because it's completely irrelevant to the story, you can believe it or not believe it as you like. A better example would be if JK Rowling said that the meaning of her story was to show a hero succeeding through hard work, perserverance, and skill. In which case it would be like that's super JK except the story you actually wrote is about a hero coasting on a never-ending tide of Deus Exes and plain dumb luck. If an author has a meaning they want to convey then they need to convey it in the actual story when they're writing it, after-the-fact pronouncements don't mean shit.

It's like (forgive me but I only have food on the mind right now) me creating a lentil soup, and you saying it tastes like beets to you. I can't say you're wrong (though suggesting that your senses might be out of whack is perfectly within reason), but when insinuate that I was actually trying to make borscht and just called it lentil soup I can certainly call you out on being full of it. I know what I put in my goddamn soup thank you very much and it was lentils.

If you continue to insist on that after your guest dips a ladle into it and pulls out a spoonful of beets, then you're gonna look pretty silly. Authorial omniscience is easy to argue if you only use examples where the author is plainly correct but the long history of art and culture is filled with creators who imagined all kinds of shit about their work that wasn't and couldn't hope to be the case. Convince me why I should accept Ayn Rand's view that her body of work represents a philosophical treatise demonstrating the true nature of human beings, and not a ridiculous Mary-Sue wankfest extolling the philosophy of It's Right Cause Ayn Rand Says So, Fuck You. Go exhume D.W. Griffith and get him to tell me how Birth of a Nation was a story of a proud people's noble struggle to uphold morality in the face of corrupt outsiders and degenerate ideas and we'll see if I don't choose to continue viewing it as a pile of crazy racist bullshit.

People always and forever have believed all kinds of shit about themselves and the things they say and do that don't have fuck-all to do with the reality of their interactions with the world around them, picking up a pen and titling yourself An Author doesn't make you somehow exempt.

[Arrekusu]

To be fair, angst was also involved.

[Archbio]

If an author has a meaning they want to convey then they need to convey it in the actual story when they're writing it, after-the-fact pronouncements don't mean shit.

That's the crux of it, really, even beyond the actual gigantic problems with "after-the-fact pronouncements" being considered an infallible key to interpreting a work.

When Ray Bradbury changes his mind about what Fahrenheit 451 means, does what Fahrenheit 451 mean change even if the work itself doesn't? In a sense, considering that authorial statements trump the work itself in interpretation can easily be a bigger betrayal of original authorial intent.

[tacticslion]

That's the crux of it, really, even beyond the actual gigantic problems with "after-the-fact pronouncements" being considered an infallible key to interpreting a work.

When Ray Bradbury changes his mind about what Fahrenheit 451 means, does what Fahrenheit 451 mean change even if the work itself doesn't? In a sense, considering that authorial statements trump the work itself in interpretation can easily be a bigger betrayal of original authorial intent.

No, and that's not what I was trying to imply - as Fifth pointed out the Dumbledore example was a poor one. Sorry, my mistake. I actually agree with you both on this. After The Fact announcements are not necessarrily canon. If they disagree with what was written they're crap. If J.K. Rowling meant to portray a hard-working hero, she failed. The intent was there, but the execution was poor. It still exists as it does because of her intent, but it was poorly conveyed. Dumbledore is a rare instance in that it doesn't actually conflict with anything in the story. The (extremely tenuous and vague) implications can be seen in his "close relationship" with the evil warlock and family history, but it's never really proven he's more than good friends - what the vast majority of people walked away from it with.

As above, I mentioned Lucas. He's now accepting as canon items that disagree with previously established canon. This is when author-error creeps in. Fifth's example was also a poor one. As previously mentioned, if an author lies about they're work - they lie. If they attempt to decieve with their work, than it is itself a lie. What they 'meant' to convey fails because it's a total deception - a sham.

If I tell someone to go fuck himself, then turn around later and say oh well what I meant was you're a wonderful person I think highly of, then that doesn't actually make "fuck you" a compliment, I just said something completely different from what I (claim that I) meant to say.


This is a terrible example and a logical fallicy! This is what I meant when I said if the author conveys poorly they failed. If you meant it as a compliment... um, no, you failed. If you didn't mean it as a compliment, than it's a lie. Lies are not valid points in canon. I'm not argueing that authors are infallible. Far from it. Just that they are inherently correct with their original intent and that, when honestly given, the work should be judged based off of its original intent, not in what we read into it.

I could "read" into Plato that any ring that grants invisibility will make men behave evilly because such a ring is evil. This was not his point. The point Plato intended to make with his story of the ring was that men are evil inherently and that it's only the fear of consequences that makes them behave. If I took something other than that from the work, I'm incorrect. If Plato later went back and said, say, that he was trying to show how rings are evil-inducing machines, he is lying, senile, or terrible at conveying his message. I totally agree on that point. If Plato later said that the man to whom he was referring was gay or straight or tall or short... ok. It's irrelevant to the point he was trying to make. I'll take his word for it.

Again, author's aren't always correct because they're authors. After-the-fact changes do happen. People make lousy thesis and write them poorly. Ayn Rand was off. Ok. That doesn't mean that her view should be discounted in the body of her work. In fact that view is integral to understanding what the work is.

Convince me why I should accept Ayn Rand's view that her body of work represents a philosophical treatise demonstrating the true nature of human beings, and not a ridiculous Mary-Sue wankfest extolling the philosophy of It's Right Cause Ayn Rand Says So, Fuck You.

If she believed it, she believed it. That's what the work means. It's not necessarily true, and I don't think anyone is argueing that her ideas are correct. But inside her written world, what she was saying is automatically true. If she was trying to protray the true nature of human beings... ok. That's what she was trying to portray. She's inherently correct about her attempts. She's not inherently correct about the nature of human beings, mind you, just about what she was trying to portray about them. It may be a very, very poor treatise, but if that's what she meant to make, that's what it is. That's the meaning of the work. You have the right to view it any way you want to, but she has the right to put pen to paper to extol her particular view, whether or not you agree with that view.

People always and forever have believed all kinds of shit about themselves and the things they say and do that don't have fuck-all to do with the reality of their interactions with the world around them, picking up a pen and titling yourself An Author doesn't make you somehow exempt.

I'm not claiming that authors are always correct about everything. But they are correct about the intent of the work they're trying to portray. It's inherent because they are the ones writing it. If an author fails to get across what they're attempting to get across that's a failure. If an author is crazy, their work will be crazy. But it represents them.

If you continue to insist on that after your guest dips a ladle into it and pulls out a spoonful of beets, then you're gonna look pretty silly.

If this happens and you know you only put in lentils, then something very, very strange happened. Either the person eating or someone else sabatoged the soup, or you put the wrong thing in. If you put the wrong thing in because you didn't look at the can - it's your own fault. If you put the wrong thing in from a can which clearly said 'lentils' than it's the can's fault. If you say 'lentils' and someone else says 'beets' and you're both looking at the same thing - it's a problem with definitions and communication.