Filler? I don't even know 'er! aka the fuck-Bleach [SPOILERS] megathread!

[Bard The 5th LW]

For a moment, I thought that was an actual reveal, so I searched around to see if there was a new issue out online.

I learned there wasn't. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Nothing in Bleach can surprise me anymore.
The reason I'm reading Bleach is just to find out whether I have the sense of humor to do so.

[Wigmund]

This is all part of Aizen's plan to hatch from his current form into one where he'll have beautiful butterfly wings and doodle-bobbers on his head.

[Yumil]

This is all part of Aizen's plan to hatch from his current form into one where he'll have beautiful butterfly wings and doodle-bobbers on his head.

He'll never be as manly as Papillon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jBeJJNmHro)

[CABAL49]

For a moment, I thought that was an actual reveal, so I searched around to see if there was a new issue out online.

I learned there wasn't. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

My 100% legitimate source had an update today for Bleach.

[Yumil]

My 100% legitimate source had an update today for Bleach.

I think he meant that he thought they revealed Ichigo was his father's clone, which no, he's still half human/half shinigami.

It just revealed his father has similar moves.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Ok yeah, went to a different source and I see it now. Still, the clone theory made me wonder.

[synkr0nized]

I still stupidly await more bankais from people who have yet to do them. ARRRR.

HEY GUESS WHAT NO ONLY AM I CAPTAIN LEVEL MY SON USES MY MOVESLOL

[Aerozord]

well to be fair he's the first soul reaper to have a kid, no telling what gets passed on.

[greed]

well to be fair he's the first soul reaper to have a kid, no telling what gets passed on.

First soul reaper to have a kid with a human... maybe. The soul reapers have noble families with generations, and Iba has a mother, that suggests that they do have kids among themselves. Just none of the Captains or Lieutenants are family men/women.

[Grimpond]

First soul reaper to have a kid with a human... maybe. The soul reapers have noble families with generations, and Iba has a mother, that suggests that they do have kids among themselves. Just none of the Captains or Lieutenants are family men/women.

Speaking of which, would soul reapers pass their zanpaktou from parent to child? Or does each generation choose their own?

[Aerozord]

while with some its questionable, zanpaktos are a part of your spiritual power, being a soul reaper creates one from you.

now about the families, thats not nessicarily true. People in soul society live in adopted families. Noble houses may just adopt people with high spiritual pressure. Lets use best know example, Rukia. She calls Byakuya brother, treats him like one, and is part of a noble family. But is in no way biologically related.

[Sithdarth]

First soul reaper to have a kid with a human... maybe. The soul reapers have noble families with generations, and Iba has a mother, that suggests that they do have kids among themselves. Just none of the Captains or Lieutenants are family men/women.

They adopt them from the new souls coming into the Soul Society. No one actually has kids. Or at least I remember it being explained like that. Basically what happened to Rukia is what is supposed to happen for every "family". You get separated from your real life family and form a new one with random strangers. Of course this is Bleach where the rules don't exists except to be violated repeatedly by the author.

[Aerozord]

though there are rare examples where they find biological relatives. Isane and her sister for example are biologically related

[Yumil]

Rukia was only adopted out of a favor to her sister, who married the Captain. She seemed to be an exception.

[Aerozord]

one of the first things they explained when they entered the soul society was explain that isn't the exception, its the norm.

[Sithdarth]

The only thing Rukia's appearance did for her was get her adopted into a much more important family than her spiritual powers would have on their own. Of course she later remedied that with training but when she was adopted her spiritual powers were certainly not sufficient for the family she was adopted into.

[Ecks]

From what I understand, spirits (or at least Soul Reapers) are capable of having children in the Soul Society. Ginrei Kuchiki is Byakuya's grandfather, presumably biological.

Soi Fon is a member of a lower ranking clan whose members always enter the Stealth Force. It is mentioned that she is the sole survivor of many siblings (also presumably biological) who entered the Stealth Force and were killed in action. It is told that her original name, Shaolin, was given to her in honor of a family member (not sure if mom or grandmother).

Then there's the Shihouin clan. The leader of the clan passes down his or her titles to the next in line, presumably their biological heir.

Byakuya mentions during his rant about why Ichigo's bankai can't possibly be real that the noble houses sire children with far greater spirit energy than those who come from lower clans or Rukongai citizens.

In character descriptions, it's mentioned that several Soul Reapers, including one or two captains, are Soul Reapers to pay the bills, and support their families (Ukitake and Kyouraku are notable examples, as it is mentioned that they're from lower ranking noble families).

Though this is the first I've heard of a blood relative having similar abilities... might this perchance be more Hogyouku fuckery?

[Sithdarth]

All of that is perfectly capable of happening with the adoption system described because being adopted in the Soul Society seems to be a lot bigger a deal than in the real world. Obviously the noble families would tend to adopt those spirits of higher spiritual pressure and it seems that when you are adopted you are expected to immediately adapt and use the familial titles. But once again this is Bleach where the rules exists simply to be screwed with.

Heck just think about the explanation of why the Quincies where killed. Apparently there are only a fixed number of souls and people that are born in the real world come from souls leaving soul society. Otherwise the whole balance of souls things makes no sense. So the question is if souls travel to and arrive in soul society in exactly the same state they leave the living world then where do the souls of any baby born in the soul society come from? Applying logic to Bleach is like trying to make it snow in a blast furnace.

[Aerozord]

I think how it goes is, human dies, soul goes to soul society, dies and is reduced to blank soul stuff that then forms new souls. So its not like human soul will always be a human soul, or that its a strict one to one ratio. More like proteins. My body is made up of the organic matter from a variety of different organisms. So something simular with the soul, made up of various types of reishi reduced to a blank base and then built into a new soul.

Which isn't purely inductive reasoning. It is said that all the matter in soul society comes from remains of being that die in the soul society.

[Donomni]

Another "related to this chapter" joke image? Why yes, yes indeed.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/Donomni/Stolemysword.png

[CABAL49]

Then we have Kon, the artificial soul. Since a proper travel of souls is needed to balance Soul Society oh wait we can make them.

Edit: I clicked on the first page and I have to say that after 53 pages of comments, we haven't gone that far.

[Kim]

Aizen has a mullet now...

...

...

Whelp.

Also, fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck this chapter. We got screwed out of seeing anybody go bankai seriously fuck that shit.

[synkr0nized]

I'm Aizen. I do all my ass kicking off panel. Hurrrrrrrr I grew some hair.

What the Christ. I don't even get the pleasure of seeing Yoruichi fight? I just get a "lol those guys sucked, see ya"?! WAAAAGGEEE

[Bells]

You guys missed an interesting clue...

You see, Aizen just went Super Saiyan 2. Just like Ichigo did in his fight with Ulquiorra. Longer Hair and Hollow eyes.

But as Aizen was going away he said that he would "eat ichigo" once he was done in Soul Society.

So, since Hollows need to eat hollows to evolve into more powerful beings, i'm assuming that Ichigo is an Artificial version of whatever the hell Aizen is now, and Aizen is an Incomplete real version.

Just like an Arrancar and an Vaizard were different mixes of "Shinigami + Hollow", it seems that Ichigo is the Next Step in what an Arrancar should be (Thus why Ulquiorra repeatedly comments on Ichigo's Reiatsu being just like his) while Aizen is the next Step of what an Vaizard should be (Thus why his mask got fully broken but he still has the eyes and power level).

It's also good to remember that There is the mysterious bodies that Captain Crazy Scientist found on the Lab of Arrancar Crazy Scientist and that we haven't seen a Vasto Lorde yet (maybe that's what Ichigo has become)

So... Aizen goes up and Destroy Soul Society, makes the Key. Then he would come for Ichigo to complete his transformation and the next step would be the King of Soul Society, which i'm willing to be has a Soul Society of his own and the 0 Squad there.

I still think they are taking the next to Hell though...

Maybe now Isshin will properly train his son so he can goddamn learn to fight right instead of just going "Faster, Better, Stronger" over and over.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

So I may have been right about something I said to a friend. That Aizen doesn't go down till about 2 arcs from now.

seeing as he'll succeed in nuking Karakura Town. We'll see Ichigo flee with survivors as they recap about Isshin's past (who'll probably be killed during the attack). And then some training followed by Ichigo and the survivors going to take on Aizen in one last final battle royal.

Or

Tite kicks us in the nuts by having Squad 0 kill Aizen in 1 panel then proceed to take over Soul Society turning the SS King into the new Big bad.

[Aerozord]

Thing I dont like about this chapter: after showing he was genre savvy enough to realize the bad guy always gets back up, Urahara was shocked that Aizen was alive

Thing I do like about this chapter: I think Gin was right, and Ichigo is genuinely afraid. Something you rarely see in shonen protagonists especially this late in the series. I wonder if its like what they did in another series, and Ichigo is just strong enough, to comprihend how screwed they are



It's also good to remember that There is the mysterious bodies that Captain Crazy Scientist found on the Lab of Arrancar Crazy Scientist and that we haven't seen a Vasto Lorde yet (maybe that's what Ichigo has become)


yes we have, espada 4 and higher are. If you look when they describe vasto lorde you even see Ulquiorra

I would love someone to go to Aizen, when he says he's gonna unseat god, and just ask him "and then what" because I honestly dont think he's given that any thought at all.

[Arcanum]

I would love someone to go to Aizen, when he says he's gonna unseat god, and just ask him "and then what" because I honestly dont think he's given that any thought at all.

And now I can't help but picture him saying: "The same thing we do every night Gin. Try to take over the world!" And then Bleach turns into comedic episodes of half-brained schemes to try and take over the world that always seem to fail.

[Bells]

yes we have, espada 4 and higher are. If you look when they describe vasto lorde you even see Ulquiorra

That was only implied, never stated.
The connection to Vasto Lorde and the the top 5 (going from Ulquiorra to Yami, so 4 to 0). The only straight fact is what Hitsugaya said that a Vasto Lorde is a being of power beyond the scope of all the Captains, and considering that all the Espadas were, at most, "equal matches" to the captains, i would not be surprised at all if none of them were Vasto Lorde.

[Lithp]

See, here's my reasoning on the whole Vasto Lordes issue:

Nnoitra is definitely stated to be an Adjuchas. That means that everyone below him at least, excluding "only Gillian" Aaroniero, is also an Adjuchas.

A sillohette resembling Ulquiorra's is used to explain what a Vasto Lordes is, strongly hinting that he is one. Furthermore, the description we get is "the most humanoid of the Hollows." This strongly matches Barragon & Stark, the latter of which may have even evolved into an Arrancar on his own. If the other top 4 are Vasto Lordes, Halibel probably is, as well. And since Wonderweiss is at least comparable in power, he probably is too.

Yammy, however, is NOT a Vasto Lordes, according to my theory. He is only naturally the 10th Espada, he mentions that his power boost is the result of him storing energy & his Zanpakuto's special ability. His silohette is also strikingly similar to the Adjuchas example.

So, to recap, we know that Aaroniero is the only Gillian & that Grimmjow & Nnoitra are Adjuchas. Szayelapporo, Zommari, & Yammy are also probably Adjuchas. Ulquiorra, Halibel, Barragon, Starrk, & Wonderweiss are probably Vasto Lordes. I can picture 10 like them destroying the Soul Society without the Visoreds' help.

On a tangent, I also think that Ulquiorra is the actual strongest Espada, under the principle that his 2nd release was secret & therefore did not affect his rank.

[Kim]

Or maybe it's all bullshit and right now Tite Kubo is smokin' a bowl, wondering what he's going to do with all these hookers.

[Aerozord]

That was only implied, never stated.
The connection to Vasto Lorde and the the top 5 (going from Ulquiorra to Yami, so 4 to 0). The only straight fact is what Hitsugaya said that a Vasto Lorde is a being of power beyond the scope of all the Captains, and considering that all the Espadas were, at most, "equal matches" to the captains, i would not be surprised at all if none of them were Vasto Lorde.

also got Nnoitra talking to Nel about a mission to slaughter vasto lorde that opposed Aizen, and the top two espada one ruled the hollows and the other was so powerful just standing next to him was fatal.

Soul society has never encountered a vasto lorde, I think its more likely Captain Shota was missinformed

[Lithp]

They weren't on a mission to slaughter Vasto Lordes that opposed Aizen, they were on a mission to find Vasto Lordes to recruit to the Espada for Aizen.

And yes, it's also strongly implied that the information on the Vasto Lordes was a bit off. Even Aizen said he didn't imagine they'd be weaker than him.

To be fair though, 10 Menos like Barragon & Stark could definitely pose a very real threat to the Soul Society, especially if you don't factor in the Visoreds or anyone who can compete one-on-one with Aizen.

Post Chapter Reading Edit:

Sweet Jesus. I think Isshin's Getsuga Tensho might be a liiiiitle bit stronger. Well, in any case, I can't say I'm dissatisfied with the level of intrigue after that monotonous battle.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Hey everybody remember that soul train thing that lives on the path between the world of the living and the soul society, that soul reapers aren't able to harm or do anything to and is technically unkillable?

Aizen just killed it with one hand. Also Isshin going to teach Ichigo the Final Getsuga Tenshou move that will allow him to last longer then 10 seconds against Ultimate Soul God Aizen.

[EVILNess]

I must say, I really didn't think about any of this up until this point, and you guys have ruined a weekly 5 minute ritual for me.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I'm sure you can still enjoy it.

[Lithp]

We didn't see how he destroyed it. He could have done anything, really. I thought the oddly circular cloud behind him was a Cero for a second.

Which does raise an interesting question: How DOES he destroy it? Is he just that freakishly powerful or is it literally because truth is subjective?

[Aerozord]

might be more of an Aizen thing then a power thing. This is the guy whose zanpakto's power is basically bum-raping your perspective of the truth.

oh and yay hyperbolic time chamber, Bleach edition. Honestly what bothers me is they screwed up their own continuity. It was the fact that what kept people from lingering in the precipice world was how the tunnel collapsed and that train only came by like once a week. Now he's saying it comes EVERY SINGLE TIME. What about when Orihime was in there, nope wasn't there that time.

[Sithdarth]

When Orihime went through they had "stabilized" the precipice world. Which why nothing was moving and I guess why the train didn't come through. I think the point of hell butterflies might also have something to do with avoiding the train. It's been so long though. Then again this is Bleach and Kubo we are talking about.

[synkr0nized]

Hmm.

Apologizing to Gin? And then a walk? Be careful, Gin! He caught you playing with his toys. Well, your toys that he thinks are his.

[Lithp]

I don't recall a contradiction at all. All he said was, "it keeps people from lingering too long." So, if you stay in there for an extended period, you're bound to run into it. But I actually thought this was an interesting plot device. It was established way back when that the tunnel was in a different reality, as it had somehow messed up the timeframe of the Soul Society when they exited.

Also, I'm speculating that Aizen's new form has something to do with illusions. I had speculated earlier that he was phasing through attacks because of remarks like "it's like there's nothing there." Then he showed the Hollowfied eyes, which reminded me that Kaname's Ressurrecion had powers that were related to his Zanpakuto.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Hey remember when Orihime planned to erase the Hougyoku out of existence?

I wonder if Tite's still going to use that plot device even though he didn't build it up much.

[Kim]

I think she'll probably end up somewhere where she has a chance to do it but doesn't because god forbid Orihime ever accomplish something.

[Aerozord]

shame she's so goody-goody, or she could just reject Aizens existance

[Lithp]

She could pull an Avatar & reject his powers. But I think we're forgetting a few other problems with her ability, namely that it's weakened through hesitation, which Aizen seems to be working with, & that it can't eliminate extremely powerful Reitsu, which is the Hougyokou & Aizen in a nutshell.

I do hope she & Ichigo's other friends become more influential in the waning chapters, though. As much as I love the other protagonists, it's a shame how much the original group is being pushed aside, sans Ichigo. I was actually on the Bleach Wiki the other day & read that Orihime is a black belt. Anyone else remember that? Me neither.

[Aerozord]

I was actually on the Bleach Wiki the other day & read that Orihime is a black belt. Anyone else remember that? Me neither.

I think someone is confusing Orihime with Tatsuki, and she isn't simply a black belt, she got second in the national championship, with a broken arm no less.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Actually, I recall it was mentioned offhandedly once that Orihime does take part in some martial art that I think was karate. I don't remember her being a black belt though.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Theory about the next 2 arcs:

Note that this just my educated guess of how things might play out based on how Tite has handled things up till now.

As Ichigo learns the last getsuga move, Aizen proceeds to the destroy Karakura Town. Collecting souls for the Soul Key/Kings Key. As the destruction continues, Uryu's father is forced into battle against Aizen. gin offers to deal with him but Aizen declines his offer. Believeing that he's strong enough to deal with 1 Quincy.

-Aizen VS Uryu's Father (yes I forgot his name, give me break theres like over 40+ characters in Bleach)-

Mean while Ichigo's training is still underway. But things don't seem to be going fast enough.

Back in the world of the living, Aizen has force Uryu's Father into a corner. Dispite his efforts, the Quincy is killed (may survive seeing Tite's track record with having the main characters survive near death moments) by Aizen as he continues to collect souls.

Soon Ichigo's friends and sisters in Karakura catch notice of Aizen and try to stop him. But Aizen over powers them. Just as he's about to finsh them Ichigo arrives along with Isshin. Prepared to give it another go.

-Ichigo & Isshin VS Aizen & Gin-

Even with the last Getsuga move, Ichigo and Isshin are unable to beat Aizen. In a last desperate attempt. Ichigo and Isshin flee the now nearly destroyed Karakura Town. Saving as many of their friends and family as they can at the mercy of Aizen who no longer sees a reason to eat them yet. Using the souls he's gathered, Aizen creates the Soul Key/Kings Key and invades the Kings royal grounds.

End of Fake Karakura battles Arc

Flash back Arc:Isshin

Back at the Fake Karakura town. Ichigo blames himslef for being unable to stop Aizen. Torn by the countless deaths Ichigo wanders off from the others, depressed.

Later that moment Isshin finds Ichigo deep within the town. After cheering Ichigo up through kicking his ass mercilessly, Isshin decides that now is the time to tell Ichigo, why he couldn't tell him he was a Soul Reaper earlier.

-Flash Back-

After learning about his father, Ichigo's fighting spirit returns. As he, Isshin, and the rest of the surviving captains begin to plan there second attack against Aizen. Mean while Aizen is forced into battle against Squad 0.

Knowing that he would be out matched, Aizen decides to call the Vesto lordes to battle. With their help, Aizen kills Squad 0 along with the Soul king. Effectively taking over the Soul Society.

End of flash back arc.

Next and possibly last Arc would probably take place after a 1 or 2 month/year time skip with ichigo, his friends and family, and the surviving Captains and Soul Reapers taking on Aizen, Gin, and the Vasto lordes.


It's seems pretty bad but that's what I'm expecting might happen.

[CABAL49]

The theories about Orihime...is that she is the Turian Counselor from Mass Effect 2?

[Bard The 5th LW]

Theory about the next 2 arcs:

Note that this just my educated guess of how things might play out based on how Tite has handled things up till now.

As Ichigo learns the last getsuga move, Aizen proceeds to the destroy Karakura Town. Collecting souls for the Soul Key/Kings Key. As the destruction continues, Uryu's father is forced into battle against Aizen. gin offers to deal with him but Aizen declines his offer. Believeing that he's strong enough to deal with 1 Quincy.

-Aizen VS Uryu's Father (yes I forgot his name, give me break theres like over 40+ characters in Bleach)-

Mean while Ichigo's training is still underway. But things don't seem to be going fast enough.

Back in the world of the living, Aizen has force Uryu's Father into a corner. Dispite his efforts, the Quincy is killed (may survive seeing Tite's track record with having the main characters survive near death moments) by Aizen as he continues to collect souls.

Soon Ichigo's friends and sisters in Karakura catch notice of Aizen and try to stop him. But Aizen over powers them. Just as he's about to finsh them Ichigo arrives along with Isshin. Prepared to give it another go.

-Ichigo & Isshin VS Aizen & Gin-

Even with the last Getsuga move, Ichigo and Isshin are unable to beat Aizen. In a last desperate attempt. Ichigo and Isshin flee the now nearly destroyed Karakura Town. Saving as many of their friends and family as they can at the mercy of Aizen who no longer sees a reason to eat them yet. Using the souls he's gathered, Aizen creates the Soul Key/Kings Key and invades the Kings royal grounds.

End of Fake Karakura battles Arc

Flash back Arc:Isshin

Back at the Fake Karakura town. Ichigo blames himslef for being unable to stop Aizen. Torn by the countless deaths Ichigo wanders off from the others, depressed.

Later that moment Isshin finds Ichigo deep within the town. After cheering Ichigo up through kicking his ass mercilessly, Isshin decides that now is the time to tell Ichigo, why he couldn't tell him he was a Soul Reaper earlier.

-Flash Back-

After learning about his father, Ichigo's fighting spirit returns. As he, Isshin, and the rest of the surviving captains begin to plan there second attack against Aizen. Mean while Aizen is forced into battle against Squad 0.

Knowing that he would be out matched, Aizen decides to call the Vesto lordes to battle. With their help, Aizen kills Squad 0 along with the Soul king. Effectively taking over the Soul Society.

End of flash back arc.

Next and possibly last Arc would probably take place after a 1 or 2 month/year time skip with ichigo, his friends and family, and the surviving Captains and Soul Reapers taking on Aizen, Gin, and the Vasto lordes.


It's seems pretty bad but that's what I'm expecting might happen.

Are you Tite Kubo?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I don't know rather to take that as a compliment for managing to come up with something close to what he might have planned for the next several chapters. Or feel insulted.

I'll take it as a compliment. XD

[Grimpond]

I don't know rather to take that as a compliment for managing to come up with something close to what he might have planned for the next several chapters. Or feel insulted.

I'll take it as a compliment. XD

You always seemed more of a Titty Kubo to me.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

You always seemed more of a Titty Kubo to me.

I deserved that comment. /jk

[Bard The 5th LW]

I don't know rather to take that as a compliment for managing to come up with something close to what he might have planned for the next several chapters. Or feel insulted.

I'll take it as a compliment. XD

SO THERE I WAS BEING TITE KUBO. (http://othertitles.wikia.com/wiki/Kubo_Tite%27s_thought_process)

[Kyanbu The Legend]

That was kind of funny.

[Bard The 5th LW]

There was an image initially, but the forum refused the link. Just search up, SO THERE I WAS BEING TITE KUBO in google images. I'm pretty sure its on the first page.

The entire thing is a meme in its own right.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I'll look for it then.

EDIT: found but I don't feel like posting it right now. Now it's funny.

[Lithp]

No, it wasn't a confusion. The citation was that Tatsuki had mentioned that she was teaching Orihime martial arts & the former estimated that the latter was at about black belt level. Kinda does make sense, considering she took out a few Soul Reaper grunts way back when.

As for that scenario, I find parts of it highly unlikely. It was implied that Aizen would just destroy Karakura in one go, not "collect souls." And this is assuming that the King's Key will even be created. The scenario surrounding the battle with Uryu's father makes sense, but I believe you have the order of probability switched around: He will probably live & MAY die. Countless deaths also seem unlikely, given the track record. It may happen, & I would be interested in seeing how Kubo would deal with it, but in any case, the flashback sounds probable.

But the whole thing about Aizen believing he'd be outmatched & calling in the Vasto Lordes doesn't sound like Aizen & doesn't even make sense from a narration standpoint. Aizen is supposed to be some kind of super badass now, if he had Arrancar at all, it would probably be painted as doing work that's too menial for him.

This is all going on the assumption that the next few chapters will be monotonous & predictable, mind you. Kubo did wow us at one point with the reveal that Aizen was the Big Bad, so that's not necessarily true.

Edit: Chapter 408 is kind of lame.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

New chapter is out.

So Uryu's Dad and any remaining characters have to stall Aizen for at least 1 hour. That's going to be messy.

[Lithp]

I really don't like all of the extra info that was added to the Precipice World. "Segregated from time" was enough. We didn't need all of that stuff about how 1 hour was 2000 or how if you get hit by the train, you go so far through time that you become grass.

Seriously, that doesn't even make sense. It was also fine when Orihime's shield saved them instead of Urahara's technology.

Instead of a chapter of useless retcons with special guest appearances by Tatsuki & Keigo, something could have actually happened.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Least something will happen next chapter and it's been a while since I've seen Zangetsu in the manga.

[Fenris]

Hyperbolic time chamber: Bleach edition.

Fantastic.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Yeah this chapter was just confusing and pointless. Thicker time? What?

[Steel Shadow]

Something happen? In bleach? Sure it will.

Still, it was nice to see Tatsuki again. Now hopefuly she wont die horribly.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Something happen? In bleach? Sure it will.

Still, it was nice to see Tatsuki again. Now hopefuly she wont die horribly.
Soul God Aizen doesn't help her chances much.

I gotta admit though. Isshin being able to hold out for 3 months is pretty badass.

[Kim]

I'm getting the distinct impression that Bleachigo's dad is from the distant past.

[Donomni]

SEVERAL YEARS IN THE PAST(BUT NOT MANY)...

But yeah, Hyperbolic Time Chamber v2.0? Huh.

[Lithp]

Wait a minute, something just occurred to me...Isshin & Ichigo have no apparent source of food or water.

[Kim]

Do shinigami need food and water?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Souls don't need to ea- wait... during the SS arc they...


KUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

[Lithp]

The best explanation I can think of is that they'll be fine until their reitsu starts to get low, but then that just means that they get out of the precipice world, confront Aizen, Aizen lifts his sword...& they drop dead from starvation. Which Aizen would then reveal was his plan the entire time.

[Kim]

Since when were you ever under the impression, you had to eat?

[EVILNess]

They mention in the Soul Society Arc that Souls only have to drink water, but anyone with actual Reitsu has to eat as well.

[Kim]

Since when were you ever under the impression you had Reitsu?

[EVILNess]

Since when were you ever under the impression you had Reitsu?

Don't make me come through the internet and end you. I will. I'm crazy enough.

[Kim]

Since when were you ever under the impression this was the internet?

[Bard The 5th LW]

Yeah, it was confirmed that any soul with Reitsu has to eat. Rally's.

It was also said that if a soul feels hungry, she/he is becoming a hollow.

How does one tell the difference?

[Donomni]

Since when were you ever under the impression this was the internet?

Since when were you were under the impression you're under an impression?

[Bard The 5th LW]

Since when were you under the impression that you existed?

[Lithp]

Who ever told you that this meme was funny?

But seriously, I don't remember it being said that souls had to drink. Either way, they have Reitsu. So, I can accept that, in Soul form, they would be okay until their Reitsu ran out, but we're talking 3 months here. And Isshin's entire PLAN is to deplete his Reitsu.

I'm reminded of a quote:

"Every chapter that comes out, it looks more & more like Aizen isn't a master manipulator, he's just dealing with a bunch of complete retards."

[Aerozord]

If he has that much freakin power, why the hell does he think Ichigo would become that much stronger just from learning one new technique. Pre-caccoon he was able to hurt Aizen by giving him the finger, while Ichigo just sat there helplessly. Plus apparently he knows the technique himself, this is sounding like a really stupid plan

edit: and why would you be launched out ahead of time? If time moves faster you should get there faster

[Sithdarth]

From what Isshin was saying at the end of the chapter it seems that special Bankai training actually screwed Ichigo over. Since he forced Zangetsu out and basically took the short cut to Bankai he never really got access to his entire power. It sort of makes sense for that training method to have a couple of downsides apart from being potentially deadly. After all this is a Shonen Anime which is supposed to be at least partly about hard work overcoming impossible odds. No way would a short cut training method result in the same power as the tough as hell training method. The fact that even with that handicap he still has more raw power than a captain means that once he actually subdues his sword the proper way he might have stupidly insane power like Aizen.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Still doesn't make since that they plan on training for 3 months without food or water.

[Sithdarth]

Perhaps Isshin is just that awesome. Alternatively we know souls can get hungry if they have any spiritual power but that doesn't mean they can't go without food. If you think about it the stronger a soul is the longer it might be able to last without food or water. Although the training could theoretically stress them quite a bit and make it much harder. Of course knowing Kubo there is probably a way to make food and water out of the stuff around them.

[Aerozord]

but now that I think about it, if thats the reason we still have a problem. Remember Ichigo hemorages spiritual energy like a facet

[Sithdarth]

He hemorrhages spiritually energy but the actual quantity that he has doesn't change unless he actively uses it. Everybody seems to work under that premise. Basically there are two measures of power. The amount you let out that other people can feel and the amount you posses internally that is used up when you fight or otherwise exert yourself. Ichigo just happens to let out a ridiculous amount naturally without effecting his total amount. In other words he regenerates his internal spiritual energy extremely quickly. Remember the beginning of the Vizard training when they were trying to drain him of his spiritual energy? They could clearly sense the amount of spiritual pressure he put out so they must have been measuring the total amount of internal spiritual energy he had. (I.E. the amount of energy he could actually make use of when exerting himself before running out.) Time with out food would probably effect spiritual energy regeneration but Ichigo's is so high to begin with he should be fine for quite some time. Unless the training really really drains him. Isshin is the one that really has the problem because he's actively depleting the spiritual energy he can exert. Of course his 3 month estimate could just be 3 months until his internal energy is finally depleted enough that he can't maintain his external spiritual pressure anymore. In which case he'd be weak but not completely devoid of spiritual energy.

[Lithp]

Don't quote me on this, but I believe Ichigo's gotten better at controlling his spirit energy.

As for time moving faster, time moves faster in that space. That space does not flow together with other space. Ergo, if you emerge into new space, you can emerge anywhere or anywhen. The reason you're knocked ahead, although I could have sworn they were knocked back, is because this thing ejects you somewhere you don't want to go.

Lastly, a good point was made on another forum that I happened to have read: In this time, Ichigo could be taught something more tactically diverse & visually appealing, like Kido.

[Kim]

For Itchy to perform the Final Getsuga Tenshou, everyone in Karakura will have to raise their hands into the air. Don Kanonji will lead them in doing this.

[Fenris]

Since when were you under the impression that this wasn't Dragonball Z?

[Kim]

If I was less lazy, I'd make a full Aizen Meme thing with Aizen's cocoon falling off to reveal Freeza.

[Sithdarth]

Perfect Cell would fit better really.

[Donomni]

Nah, at this point I'd say Kid Buu. Or Broly.

[Lithp]

DBZ didn't really have an "I planned for everything" character, now that I think of it.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Naw, they just got strong enough to kill everybody except Goku, thus wiping out the need for plans. Until the Dragon Balls evived them.

[EVILNess]

DBZ didn't really have an "I planned for everything" character, now that I think of it.

Dr. Gero kinda fits that, since he basically took genetic material from every super powered Tom, Dick, and Jane who set foot on Earth.

[Lithp]

Funny story: I literally don't remember Dr. Gero. I could swear he never appeared in Dragonball Z or even Dragonball.

He kind of counts, but he doesn't have that "I can't be touched" thing that characters like Aizen have.

[synkr0nized]

Dr. Gero kinda fits that, since he basically took genetic material from every super powered Tom, Dick, and Jane who set foot on Earth.

Except he clearly underestimated Vegeta being SS and his own machines/cyborgs' ability to rebel against him. I guess you could say that Cell was his trump card regardless of what happened to him, but I don't know -- he really seemed to flounder for a while as soon as his fat friend got owned and whine as his house of cards fell apart.

[Sithdarth]

Well to be fair his scheme sort of did work once. But then Trunks went all time travel on him and that just isn't fair to any Xanatos Gambit. I mean I don't think even Aizen could prevail if say Urahara sent someone competent back to warn everybody before Aizen ever pulled the big reveal back in the SS arc.

[Aerozord]

Well to be fair his scheme sort of did work once.

not really, his original plan of "kill goku" failed since he was already dead, plus in both timelines the first thing the androids do is kill him

[CABAL49]

Didn't Cell have the I came back to time after you killed me plan?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Yeah though it was more like going back to the time before the androids were killed to absorb them.

[synkr0nized]

Well. Anyway.

One thing that's not like DBZ is how everyone always tells Ichigo what he's bad at instead of always just going "lol we'll just wish him back and he'll beat up everyone". Sure, they all do seem to be putting their hopes into him, but practically everyone that matters has told him how he sucks at talking to his sword, managing his spiritual energy, etc. along his growth. And then he gets better. That's pretty rad.


I'm still whiney about Uruhara, Yoruichi, and Isshin not accomplishing anything. Frowny face.


So if Isshin and Ichigo are inside the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, does that mean no one else can pass between worlds? I don't recall if there are other routes, aside from the gates the menos/various hallows make.

[Mesden]

You can completely avoid the hyperbolic time chamber by having one of those butterflies. Ichigo and co didn't have it the first time, so they met the train, and SS obviously wasn't giving them out to Aizen and Gin.

[Lithp]

Aizen could have stolen one. Or just used a Garganta. I'm reasonably certain he went that way just to be a dick.

But anyway, I have trouble believing that the butterflies allow you to just go through there with impunity.

[Kim]

I'm going to bet that Aizen blew it up specifically so Ichigo could use the place as a hyperbolic time chamber.

[Aerozord]

I dont think garganta can lead directly to the soul socitey

[Bells]

More important: Is the "Shin Getsuga Tenshou" just a bigger Blacker getsuga Tenshou?

[Kim]

Given how boring Ichigo's powers have been so far, I'd wager that that's the case.

[Lithp]

Bells: Damn well better be. The Black Getsuga is cool.

Aerozord: It hasn't been stated as such, but it's possible.

NonCon: I guess that is another possibility.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

So next chapter is out.

Isshin Zanpaktu's name is Engetsu (Crescent Moon).

Note that Zangetsu means Slaying/Cutting Moon. Which cements the theory of them both being in the same class.

The last Getsuga is apparently so powerful, so awesome, so badass, that both Zangetsu and Engetsu don't won't ANYONE to learn it (says Isshin anyway).

Also Zangetsu's Tensa Zangetsu (Coat is fully closed up and he looks like he's in his 20s basically) form is pretty badass.

Also Aizen can kill and cut people in half just by being near them now, and he's like 50 ft away from Ichigo's friends staring straight at them. They more then likely are going to die now.

[Kim]

Afroshin will save them now!

[krogothwolf]

Wait, I don't get it, Aizen and Ichigo seem to be moving in the same time frame...I thought he was in a hyperbolic time chamber.

[Sithdarth]

That is just Manga Magic. Just because they are given equal time in the Manga doesn't mean we aren't skipping giant sections of Ichigo time. Like it could have taken him a week to finally get into his inner place thing.

[Kim]

If Don Kanonji doesn't show up and start fighting Aizen until Ichigo shows up, I am quitting Bleach forever.

[synkr0nized]

If that means he dies, sure. Let's go for it.


And then Gin starts to purposefully annoy Aizen by doing the laugh.

[Lithp]

Sheesh, it took it long enough to come up on One Manga.

If that means he dies, sure. Let's go for it.


And then Gin starts to purposefully annoy Aizen by doing the laugh.

This is the only good result that could come from more Don Konoji bullshit. Or something like this:

Aizen-*Looms over Ichigo's friends & folds arms.* Bwahahaha!
Gin-It's somehow even stupider when you do it.

Well, another chapter, another lamentation that Tite Kubo uses those giant-ass panels to just barely inch the story forward. I guess there's really not much to say about this one....

[Kim]

I imagine the encounter going something like this...

Kanonji: BWAHAHAHA!

Aizen: ...I ...I got nothin'. *just walks away*

EDIT: Actually, Kanonji is probably the King of Soul Society so he most likely won't show until after Aizen makes the key.

[Lithp]

Considering the rumor that Tite Kubo made Yammy the 0 Espada because he heard some people joking about it, I am absolutely terrified of the potential consequences of that "Don Kanoji is the King" thing being so widespread.

[EVILNess]

It's like Kubo's ass doubles as a magician's top hat.

Wow, now there is an image.

[Aerozord]

though the fact the manifestation of the zanpakto changes depending on the release is some nice info to me. Though tensa zangetsu seems to be a jerk.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Am I the only one who was reminded of Aizen after seeing Tensa Zangetsu? Or am I getting paranoid about every character being Aizen? Someone jokingly said that was the case once, but I can't get it out of my head now.

[Kim]

Nah, you weren't the only one.

[Aerozord]

my guess is the final technique is self destructive (maybe even what caused Isshin to lose his powers). Since Zangetsu cares about Ichigo's well being above anything else, he refuses to teach it

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Sounds about right. The last getsuga may also severely damage Zangetsu as well.

[Kim]

It might even kill the spirit of their sword or what-have-you. We haven't seen any evidence that Isshin can go bankai, he didn't use the Final Getsuga Tenshou despite supposedly knowing, and says his Engetsu was the same way. I could be reading too much into things, but add to that that he didn't have his powers for a while, and it might not be so far-fetched.

[Grimpond]

It might even kill the spirit of their sword or what-have-you. We haven't seen any evidence that Isshin can go bankai, he didn't use the Final Getsuga Tenshou despite supposedly knowing, and says his Engetsu was the same way. I could be reading too much into things, but add to that that he didn't have his powers for a while, and it might not be so far-fetched.

I just figued that Isshin meant he had the same trouble mastering the final getsuga tenshou.

[Lithp]

Tensa Zangetsu doesn't remind me of Aizen at all. I do wish he'd just spit out what his problem is & then beat the living tar out of Ichigo later, though.

[Kim]

Latest Bleach Prediction: Engetsu is actually Ichigo's mom, meaning Ichigo is half-sword. Ichigo will end up weilding two bankais, only one of them is himself. Aizen wants Ichigo to take his true form as a sword because Ichigo is the most powerful sword in Soul Society and only with it can he defeat the King of Soul Society. Ichigo's hollow form is his shikai. That's why he had to fight himself to be able to control his hollow form.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Latest Bleach Prediction: Engetsu is actually Ichigo's mom, meaning Ichigo is half-sword. Ichigo will end up weilding two bankais, only one of them is himself. Aizen wants Ichigo to take his true form as a sword because Ichigo is the most powerful sword in Soul Society and only with it can he defeat the King of Soul Society. Ichigo's hollow form is his shikai. That's why he had to fight himself to be able to control his hollow form.

Is this awesome or not? I can't tell?

[Lithp]

Do you people think that Bleach is Naruto, or something?

[Donomni]

Holy crap that is way too convoluted to not not happen.

[Kim]

Is this awesome or not? I can't tell?

It's awesome because it's terrible, and it's terrible because it might actually happen.

Do you people think that Bleach is Naruto, or something?

I don't watch Naruto so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that the dumbest prediction is usually the most accurate one. At least that's been the case lately.

[Bells]

Latest Bleach Prediction: Engetsu is actually Ichigo's mom, meaning Ichigo is half-sword. Ichigo will end up weilding two bankais, only one of them is himself. Aizen wants Ichigo to take his true form as a sword because Ichigo is the most powerful sword in Soul Society and only with it can he defeat the King of Soul Society. Ichigo's hollow form is his shikai. That's why he had to fight himself to be able to control his hollow form.

The OVA "The Sealed Sword Frenzy" was about that.

But the theory trips. Because every Soul can turn Hollow, and every Shinigami has a "Hollow Form". The reason why Ichigo's Hollow form is so present is Half mystery and Half for the fact that his path to power was the most Rushed and convoluted one in history.

But every Shinigami has a Hollow within, every Vaizard has to dominate that form in order to control himself, and those are both sides of the same coin, even evidenced in the anime during the only time where Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo appeared in the same scene, with Zangetsu "Absorbing" Hollow Ichigo back inside.

Personally i don't see Aizen in Tensa Zangetsu's form. You can see Hitsugaya or even Byakuya in there if you want to.

However... i would agree that Isshin's Sword could be Ichigo's Mom. That would somewhat explain why Isshin went powerless (his Sword "died") but would also mean that somehow he had babies with his Zanpakuto....

...and that's messed'up.

[Kim]

The good, and by good I mean awful, thing about making Bleach predictions anymore is that you're either right, or the truth is even dumber than your prediction. Either Ichigo's hollow powers have to do with him being half sword, or the big twist Aizen was going to drop on Ichigo before is far, far dumber than that, and that's amazing.

[Lithp]

I don't watch Naruto so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that the dumbest prediction is usually the most accurate one. At least that's been the case lately.

This is kind of what I mean. Bleach hasn't been that bad at all. A quick comparison:

Aizen could have revealed that the deaths of the Espada were all illusions. It would have made sense, & been tactically brilliant, among other things. But he didn't, probably because Tite Kubo realized that was frustratingly stupid.

However, in a recent chapter of Naruto, Kabuto revived the Akatsuki. All of them. With a jutsu. And his only apparent limit was that he needed to gather the corpses of nameless schmucks off-screen in order to do it.

And that's not the limit of Naruto's frustratingly dumbass plot "twists"! Both his father AND mother--deceased, both of them--have been revealed to be sealed in his subconscious & emerged to help him at major events, even though the Deus Ex Machina weren't really needed. Oh, & apparently, his mother has "special chakra," despite the fact that this hasn't been mentioned yet. What it does, beyond being able to subdue a monster literally made of enough chakra to cause natural disasters by MOVING, is a horrifying mystery.

There was a whole convoluted set of chapters where Kisame nearly captured someone, but lost at the last minute because his sword betrayed him. This turned out to be a fake Kisame, the real one hiding in the sword, waiting for the "right moment." This ignores the facts that (A) the fake Kisame was winning, so the real one would have finished the battle already, (B) he's had several chances when the person in question was either asleep, alone, or both, as well as being (C) on the seas, where Kisame, being a water-user, would have been at an advantage.

And Aizen's plans, no matter how bad a person thinks they are, have nothing on Madara Uchiha. He plans to use a jutsu to reflect his eye on the moon & control the world. Because his eye can do anything. Fuck, it makes him immortal & intangible to all attacks. And what does this guy want? Well, that's tough to say. One chapter, he says, "Revenge on the people who persecuted the Uchiha," the next chapter, "World peace." Why he'd want revenge on the Uchihas' persecutors doesn't make much sense, given that he helped to kill them. Either way, his plan revolves reviving the Ten-Tailed Beast (also not foreshadowed at all), a monster that is made of the other 9 Tailed Beasts put together, which has the power to instantly eradicate entire countries, at the very least.

There was also the time where Orochimaru reappeared after being inactive for a long time, just to be absorbed by a sacred item that Itachi conveniently had without any chance to fight back. This sacred item was never mentioned prior to this. And Itachi only had it because it was possessed by his Susanoo jutsu, which was never mentioned itself, before Itachi needed to block lightning. It wasn't even explained in hinbdsight how any of this bullshit made sense.

See what I mean?

But the theory trips. Because every Soul can turn Hollow, and every Shinigami has a "Hollow Form". The reason why Ichigo's Hollow form is so present is Half mystery and Half for the fact that his path to power was the most Rushed and convoluted one in history.

The theory trips for a lot of reasons. It only makes sense under the ridiculous notion that Bleach does things purely because they're stupid. But I would like to point out that this isn't stated or even implied anywhere. It seems like the soul has to go through a partial Hollow transformation to have an Inner Hollow.

I don't even believe that Isshin's sword could be his mother. For starters, her name isn't "Engetsu."

[Kim]

It only makes sense under the ridiculous notion that Bleach does things purely because they're stupid.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2vjzrwn.jpg

[Lithp]

One thing. Intended as a joke. Not nearly as ridiculous as any of these theories. And who gives a fuck about Yammy anyway? He wasn't really major to the plot at all.

Also, really, the only argument for why this is stupid is that people don't like it. You could have made the case for Stark being the Primera Espada by just saying, "He's so lazy, he couldn't POSSIBLY be that strong!"

[Kim]

One thing. Intended as a joke. Not nearly as ridiculous as any of these theories. And who gives a fuck about Yammy anyway? He wasn't really major to the plot at all.

Unless I'm forgetting something, he's currently the reason at least Kenpachi and Byakuya haven't come to help. I want to say he's also the reason Chad, Ishida, Orihime, and Rukia haven't shown, but goddamn that was like fifty chapters ago and I honestly can't remember.

Also, really, the only argument for why this is stupid is that people don't like it.

Or maybe people don't like it because it's stupid. Just sayin'. Quite possibly the worst, most uninteresting espada character turns out to be the strongest because Kubo wills it. It wasn't cool, interesting, or even particularly well-executed. Kubo just did it because he thought it was funny, which is the opposite of good writing.

I'd also file Urahara, Isshin, and and Yoruichi getting their asses handed to them off-panel and without using any particularly interesting abilities as being pretty stupid. I've also found several other recent plot twists stupid and uninteresting, and I think the last time I really enjoyed Bleach like I used to was when Captain Bro's bankai turned out to be the Best Thing Ever.

[Lithp]

Unless I'm forgetting something, he's currently the reason at least Kenpachi and Byakuya haven't come to help. I want to say he's also the reason Chad, Ishida, Orihime, and Rukia haven't shown, but goddamn that was like fifty chapters ago and I honestly can't remember.

Past tense. Was he at all important before his release? The release didn't change anything major with his character development. So far, he hasn't killed anyone or done anything major, he's just provided a convenient excuse to occupy more characters.

Or maybe people don't like it because it's stupid. Just sayin'. Quite possibly the worst, most uninteresting espada character turns out to be the strongest because Kubo wills it. It wasn't cool, interesting, or even particularly well-executed. Kubo just did it because he thought it was funny, which is the opposite of good writing.

Dude, you're doing it RIGHT NOW. This isn't about lack of foreshadowing, an unclever plot device, or any of that. This is because you perceive Yammy as the worst Espada. So do I, but even I can see that's not objective grounds for calling it a bad plot device. Again, if you thought Stark was a bad character, you would have been making this argument about him.

And "the opposite of good writing"? Seriously, it's a joke. I happen to think it's funny, because I LOVE seeing Yammy get thrashed. If it was something that really fucked with the plot, like Don Konochi being the King of the Soul Society, THEN I'd have a problem with it. I mean, I'm not saying you should think it's funny, but does it really make sense to sound so preachy about it? No offense intended, of course.

Also, I think that Ulquiorra is the real strongest Espada.

I'd also file Urahara, Isshin, and and Yoruichi getting their asses handed to them off-panel and without using any particularly interesting abilities as being pretty stupid.

And you probably would have complained had the battle dragged on. Don't say you wouldn't, everyone was doing it. I'll grant you, the Fake Karakura Town Arc got a little stale towards the end. But is it really logical to say that things like "Ichigo's mom was Isshin's sword" make sense compared to a relatively minor Missed Moment of Awesome? Come on, now, I think we can all agree that's overexaggerating.

I think the last time I really enjoyed Bleach like I used to was when Captain Bro's bankai turned out to be the Best Thing Ever.

What are you talking about?

[Kim]

This isn't about lack of foreshadowing, an unclever plot device, or any of that. This is because you perceive Yammy as the worst Espada.

It wasn't foreshadowed. It wasn't interesting. Stark being the Primera worked because we knew there was a Primera. We knew that it had to be one of three characters. In addition, the parallels between Stark and Captain Bro gave good reason to believe that Stark would be one of the strongest Espada if not the strongest. This is a legitimately bad plot event, and it's made worse for involving the worst character. With Bleach, I'm generally willing to suspend my disbelief provided it's cool. This idea is more or less the basis for bankais in general. "Why did his sword turn into a billion flower petals that kill you?" "Because it's cool." This wasn't a good plot twist, and it had nothing going for it to make me tolerate its stupidity.

And "the opposite of good writing"? Seriously, it's a joke.

Throwing in a meaningless, poorly written plot device because "it's a joke" is bad writing.

And you probably would have complained had the battle dragged on.

No, I wouldn't.

Don't say you wouldn't

I wouldn't.

everyone was doing it.

Since when were you under the impression I cared what other people were doing?

I'll grant you, the Fake Karakura Town Arc got a little stale towards the end. But is it really logical to say that things like "Ichigo's mom was Isshin's sword" make sense compared to a relatively minor Missed Moment of Awesome? Come on, now, I think we can all agree that's overexaggerating.

I thought some of the Ho-Goku stuff was really dumb, and more than anything a Deus Ex Machina to explain stuff Kubo hadn't bothered to come up with legitimate explanations for when the story began, and Aizen being responsible for every damn thing and knowing everything really strains my suspension of disbelief. Also, yes, it was an overexaggeration. I don't think Ichigo is actually half-sword. Sometimes I make joke predictions about Bleach. It's a thing I do.

What are you talking about?

Captain Bro's bankai being Calvinball.

[Lithp]

It wasn't foreshadowed.

Debatable, but that's not what bothers you about it.

It wasn't interesting.

A matter of debate. I'm sure Yammy fans love it.

Stark being the Primera worked because we knew there was a Primera. We knew that it had to be one of three characters. In addition, the parallels between Stark and Captain Bro gave good reason to believe that Stark would be one of the strongest Espada if not the strongest.

Those all sound like rather flimsy reasoning, to me. Hell, let me do some Devil's Advocate for Yammy:

Ulquiorra mentioned that Yammy was conserving energy for a reason. We knew that there were 10 Espada, no credible witness actually told us that the numbers ordinarily went from 1-10. It appeared that Yammy was the weakest Espada, but Aizen "appeared" to be dead.

This is a legitimately bad plot event, and it's made worse for involving the worst character.

Are you even trying to be objective?

With Bleach, I'm generally willing to suspend my disbelief provided it's cool. This idea is more or less the basis for bankais in general. "Why did his sword turn into a billion flower petals that kill you?" "Because it's cool." This wasn't a good plot twist, and it had nothing going for it to make me tolerate its stupidity.

I'm not saying that I think it was a good idea, I'm just saying that there's nothing that makes it any worse than some of the elements of the story that -I- arbitrarily choose to think are good.

Throwing in a meaningless, poorly written plot device because "it's a joke" is bad writing.

Yes, but Yammy's release barely qualifies as a plot device in the first place.

Since when were you under the impression that I cared what everyone else was doing?

You're currently engaged in promoting 2 Bandwagon Views about Bleach: That Yammy being the 10th Espada is stupid & that Bleach does a lot of badly written plot devices.

Alright, so it's unfair for me to say that you would complain about the battle raging on, but you have to admit that I have some grounds to speculate that outcome.

Aizen being responsible for every damn thing and knowing everything really strains my suspension of disbelief.

I see this as a double-edged sword. On one hand, it does come across as kind of ridiculous. On the other hand, there was a REALLY irritating plot hole regarding how Aizen didn't know about anything that was going on for a hundred years. It hasn't been completely filled yet, but that was some progress. Really, it didn't bother me THAT much, but suspension of disbelief is different for everyone.

Sometimes I make joke predictions about Bleach. It's a thing I do.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough there. I'd assumed that the predictions were jokes--funny ones, I might add--but people at least seem to be suggesting that they're valid. I don't know, it's hard to tell that sort of thing on the internet.

Captain Bro's bankai being Calvinball.

That just confused me even more.

[Kim]

You're currently engaged in promoting 2 Bandwagon Views about Bleach: That Yammy being the 10th Espada is stupid & that Bleach does a lot of badly written plot devices.

Alright, so it's unfair for me to say that you would complain about the battle raging on, but you have to admit that I have some grounds to speculate that outcome.

No. No, you do not. Your entire argument for this is that I believe two things that other people believe. You unfairly turn this into me believing them because other people believe them, and rudely and dismissively act as though I'll go along with whatever the popular opinion is. Even if you claim that was not your intent, that was the implication of your post. I could make very similar arguments for your position on things, but they'd be very stupid arguments. There is no excuse for doing something like that.

That just confused me even more.Captain Bro is the one who fought Brospada. (AKA Stark)

In terms of actual predictions about Bleach, I still think that Isshin is from the past, and got knocked into the distant future by that train thingy. Well, it at least seems reasonable, and to me would explain a lot of things that aren't yet answered.

[Lithp]

Even if you claim that was not your intent, that was the implication of your post.

The intent was one of correlation, not causality, but you're right.

I could make very similar arguments for your position on things, but they'd be very stupid arguments.

No, you really couldn't.

There is no excuse for doing something like that.

Being serious for a minute, I am sorry about that. As I said, I didn't mean to imply that you went along with a view simply because it was popular, just that your argument tends to coincide with that popular opinion. It was an extremely glaring oversight on my part to phrase my argument the way I did. As you probably saw from my thing about the predictions, I unfortunately have a tendency to make these. Again, I apologize for offending you.

Captain Bro is the one who fought Brospada. (AKA Stark)

Then what the Hell is a Calvinball?

In terms of actual predictions about Bleach, I still think that Isshin is from the past, and got knocked into the distant future by that train thingy.

Then how would he have survived that?

Well, it at least seems reasonable, and to me would explain a lot of things that aren't yet answered.

Howso?

Also, I find it interesting that you didn't comment on my viewpoint that Ulquiorra was the real strongest Espada.

[greed]

Then what the Hell is a Calvinball?


.... what a depressing and wonderless life you must have lead. Read Calvin and Hobbes.

Yammy being number zero was dumb for a number of reasons that NonCon's already outlined. The real problem with Bleach though is simple. Aizen is a terrible villain. He's boring and generic to an absurd degree. He's stupidly powerful, makes any fight he's in crappy because of it (I mean he made a fight involving Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin some of the best characters in the series utterly terrible) and does ridiculously cliche shit for no goddamn reason (killing Tousen and Halibel, both of whom were better written and more generally interesting than him). And pretty much anytime he shows up it becomes really obvious how much Kubo is pulling shit out of his ass. This whole series would have been way better if Aizen actually died basically.

Also his super forms involve him wearing man size condom and then growing a mullet. WTF

[Lithp]

Yammy being number zero was dumb for a number of reasons that NonCon's already outlined.

"I think Yammy is a bad character" is not a good reason, even if you state it as a fact.

The real problem with Bleach though is simple. Aizen is a terrible villain.

You shut the goddamn Hell up.

But seriously, Aizen's kinda one of my favorite villains of all time.

He's boring and generic to an absurd degree.

Easy argument to make for anyone. I, however, would like to point out that much of TV Tropes's 36 Stratagems article IS Aizen.

He's stupidly powerful, makes any fight he's in crappy because of it (I mean he made a fight involving Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin some of the best characters in the series utterly terrible)

I feel the need to point out that this is AFTER subjugating the Hougyokou. Before that, he had weaknesses & was very aware of them.

and does ridiculously cliche shit for no goddamn reason (killing Tousen and Halibel

Much of his MO lately has been pissing people off so that they make stupid mistakes, so there was a reason with Tosen, especially because he could no longer fight. A lot of people miss that subtlety. It's only a strategic disadvantage if you're actually losing fighting capacity. With that said, killing Halibel may have been pointless & somewhat cliche, but that's hardly enough to turn me against him.

both of whom were better written and more generally interesting than him).

You're kidding, right?

And pretty much anytime he shows up it becomes really obvious how much Kubo is pulling shit out of his ass.

Would it be worth noting Aizen's numerous & rather brilliant strategies? Or that we've known that he was going to use the Hougyokou to increase his power for-fucking-ever?

This whole series would have been way better if Aizen actually died basically.

So that the innovative plot twist would have been replaced with an obvious "reveal" that Gin was behind everything, then go on to do probably exactly the same thing?

[greed]

The problem with the strategies thing is, most of them only work cause he's so overwhelmingly powerful that he doesn't actually need them.

I mean yeah killing Tousen did piss off the dog guy and the sunglasses guy. But they were both so much weaker than Aizen that even if they acted as intelligently as possible he'd still go LOL HYPNOSIS or LOL CAN'T CUT ME and still win. Yeah the strategems are kind of cool but they're unecessary and just reinforce the fact he's so ungodly powerful he's really trolling the good guys more than fighting them. Basically the strategems would be an awesome gimmick if he pulled them off when he was actually anywhere near equal to his enemies in strength or his shikai wasn't so ungodly broken.

And what weakness' has he got? The one and only time he's been put on a back foot in the entire freaking series was during an off panel battle with Isshin and he then became CONDOM MAN two panels later and engaged in the dumbest goddamn fight in the series. If they at least showed these weaknesses and why he uses these plans it might help. Like if we got one chapter of him getting his ass handed to him by Captain Genocide back in SS to explain why he did that roundabout plan with Wonderweiss, or we got to see Isshin rough him up (and honestly I still don't see how that worked, if Aizen uses his shikai he should automatically win, unless Isshin has a counter to it, which if he does that should have been shown to explain how Aizen was losing cause at the moment it's just frustrating and looks like Aizen was faking it for his own amusement).

Yeah sorry, I just hate ridiculously overpowering villains that hog the spotlight everytime they appear. Like it would be fine if he used the strategems but was only about as strong as Ichigo so the strategems were how he actually won rather than just something he seems to do cause he's bored. Or if he was a power mad idiot who only won by the skin of his teeth because of his extreme power. That would be better writing as the fights would actually have some tension and interest in them. As it is everytime Aizen shows up you know no one is ever going to do anything to inconvenience him. Or he had a more interesting character than "arrogant calm powerful guy who wants to be god and kills his subordinates when they stop being useful". If he had a better personality or a less cliche goal he'd be better.

And yeah okay the Tousen and Halibel bit was hyperbole. They're all pretty badly written. Tousen and Halibel have the advantage of not being another boring psychopath with dreams of apotheosis though. I mean really how often does that character come up? It's boring, even Naruto's "war scarred lunatic ending strife through Instrumentality" is a less beaten horse.

Also the "obvious reveal" that Gin was behind everything at least would have meant that that total hypnosis cancer never got introduced to the plot.

[Aerozord]

What I liked best about Halibel was how she died. None of that cliche' "but why?" crap, no her instinct was the stab Aizen in the face.

Honestly I dont think Aizen killing people off was a bad idea, but a stroke of genre savvy. Remember one of the laws of shonen manga, after a fight, everyone is friends. They were beaten, or in Halibel's case, about to be. Tousen even showed regret which is normally the last stage before a full heel face turn. They couldn't be of help anymore so might as well make sure they dont turn against him. Which again, in most series is a reasonable conclusion

[Fenris]

Nonsie- I generally agree with what you're saying except for this line:Kubo just did it because he thought it was funny, which is the opposite of good writing..

"Good writing" isn't nearly so black and white as "the author thought it was funny, therefore bad."

No no no, it was bad writing because it was stupid. Not 'cause Kubo thought it was funny.

[Kim]

Then how would he have survived that?

Honestly, how he would survive it is completely irrelevant. Kubo has shown that if he needs an explanation for something, he is always able to pull one out of his ass. Just because it hasn't been established how he could have survived it doesn't mean there's not a way.

Howso?Particularly how Isshin is apparently Captain class, but nobody except the characters who know everything seem to know who he is. He was able to hurt Aizen, so these other characters should know who a character that strong is. He has more detailed knowledge of how the time thingy works than has previously been established by the other characters, which would make sense if something involving it happened to him.

My only other real theories at this point are that nobody knew about him because Kubo wills it (AKA bad writing), or that he's the guy Kenpachi defeated, because I don't think it's shown that character, so everyone just assumed he was dead.

Also, I find it interesting that you didn't comment on my viewpoint that Ulquiorra was the real strongest Espada.Because I wanted to go to bed and I was tired of arguing with you.

[Lithp]

Honestly I dont think Aizen killing people off was a bad idea, but a stroke of genre savvy. Remember one of the laws of shonen manga, after a fight, everyone is friends. They were beaten, or in Halibel's case, about to be. Tousen even showed regret which is normally the last stage before a full heel face turn. They couldn't be of help anymore so might as well make sure they dont turn against him. Which again, in most series is a reasonable conclusion.

Heh, that's a funny way to view it. But yeah, that's another thing. A lot of these alleged "lame death scenes" a lot of people (no one here, to the best of my knowledge) seem to complain about are actually pretty epic.

Just because it hasn't been established how he could have survived it doesn't mean there's not a way.

I was just wondering if you'd speculated on that. Well, it's all circumstantial evidence, but that doesn't mean you aren't on to something. Interesting theory.

Because I wanted to go to bed and I was tired of arguing with you.

So you're not the least bit interested? Or did I already mention it somewhere? I forget.

The problem with the strategies thing is, most of them only work cause he's so overwhelmingly powerful that he doesn't actually need them.

I respectfully disagree. When he was surprised by Yamamoto's level 90 Kido thing*, he lost his distance from Ichigo, & when that happened, he got hit by a Getsuga Tensho, which actually left a pretty deep wound. Ichigo was right--had Aizen not had the Hougyokou, he may have lost, or at least had to retreat.

But I can see how that would bother you.

*=Okay, this was kind of bad writing. It bothered me how Yamamoto maintained he could never be beaten by Aizen, but all of his plans involved going Kamikaze on his ass.

And what weakness' has he got?

It's not like I can name traits like "he has a clubbed foot." It's more in how he fights. The way he was clearly aware that he could be injured by Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho, the way he protected his blind spot, & so forth. You don't do these kinds of things if you're truly overpowered. If you're truly overpowered, you just plain don't get injured.

Like if we got one chapter of him getting his ass handed to him by Captain Genocide back in SS to explain why he did that roundabout plan with Wonderweiss

I can explain it: He's not stupid. Who the dick would fight with someone who is basically swinging around his own personal nuke without taking out that advantage?

or we got to see Isshin rough him up

Eh, this could have been shown in more detail, but I don't see why people make such a big deal over these transition scenes.

Or he had a more interesting character than "arrogant calm powerful guy who wants to be god and kills his subordinates when they stop being useful". If he had a better personality or a less cliche goal he'd be better.

To each his own. Seneca once said that there are "no new ideas." He was an ancient Greek. Anyway, I will admit, I'd like to see some more development to Aizen, but the series isn't over yet.

Naruto's "war scarred lunatic ending strife through Instrumentality" is a less beaten horse.

Please tell me you don't mean Madara. Pain was good. Orochimaru was good. Hell, the rest of the Akatsuki wasn't that bad. But there is absolutely NO chance that Madara is better written than any character in Bleach or, well, probably ANYTHING.

Also the "obvious reveal" that Gin was behind everything at least would have meant that that total hypnosis cancer never got introduced to the plot.

I'm still not seeing how this would have been the better scenario.

[Odjn]

Lithp, if he's got this awesome plan, answer me this.

Why didn't he just have like, a meeting of all the powerful dudes in Soul Society, then shikai, then AFTER that kill them all immediately? Example being, he illusions a copy of himself doing his normal stuff, then he kills a captain, while illusioning them alive and suchlike, repeat til all are dead, do it for their gophers, then BAM. He's won, he can go do what he wants because he has all the power. He can do whatever and not risk anything because no one can hurt him?


Edit: Or just shikai, then later on kill them each individually in the night for that matter.

[Lithp]

There's 13 of them. 26, because he obviously did it to the lieutenants. Not counting himself, Tousen, & Gin, that's still 23.

Murdering 23 high-level combatants in complete secrecy doesn't seem the LEAST bit difficult to you? If something even minor goes wrong in ANY of those instances, the entire plan could be blown.

[Aerozord]

I dont think his illusions are as complete as he claims. I mentioned before that he never makes you think he is somewhere he isn't, but makes you think someone else is him. Plus you can get through the illusion. Aizen is the type to play it safe, he wouldn't risk someone figuring it out. Whole reason he faked his death was so he didn't have to worry about people starting to wonder where the hell he was, and to give them a reason to be abit on the violent side with Ichigo and crew.

[Odjn]

There's 13 of them. 26, because he obviously did it to the lieutenants. Not counting himself, Tousen, & Gin, that's still 23.

Murdering 23 high-level combatants in complete secrecy doesn't seem the LEAST bit difficult to you? If something even minor goes wrong in ANY of those instances, the entire plan could be blown.

Killing anyone is easy for Aizen. If you don't even know that he's there, you don't know where, how, or even if there's an attack and thus cannot defend against it. He can walk up to someone without them realizing and decapitate them. Bam, dead captain.

[Mesden]

The answer is because Aizen wanted them to know he beat them. This isn't about just killing everyone in the most effective way possible. Aizen is smugness taken to its logical extreme. He has planned ahead for everything and wants you to know that his obstacles to godhood are merely a formality. He doesn't care if you're stronger than he is (Yamamoto, Ichigo's dad), smarter than he is (Urahara), or anything else -- he is better than you for no other reason than he says so and he will prove it to your face. The entire arrancar fight was literally just him fucking around with the byproducts of his godhood before he beat everyone by himself. This is all an amusing ruse to him.

I mean he made frost midget stab Hinamori, which is probably the most hilarious thing in any manga ever. He is the greatest troll in literary history and his big fight and ultimate form having a mullet are all just side effects of this. He probably could just illusion everyone into a quick death, but that doesn't suit the character.

He's probably my favorite villain ever just because of how audacious and ridiculous he is.

[Aerozord]

More or less I'd have to agree with Mesden. Aizen's goal isn't, kill everyone, frankly he doesn't really care who lives or dies. Does seem to make it a point to torment Toshiro though. Assuming he can just stealth kill everyone it doesn't really prove anything, or really even help him in his eyes.

Plus that would make a crappy story. Aizen has only used it when its been interesting, as opposed to all the time. Maybe not the most logical move but alot of us would probably stop reading if it happened. In fact now that I think about it, the only time you seem to see him use it is to make you think someone, or something is him. Its possible thats all it does and he's just lying about the total control thing.

Unlike most villians, Aizen lies, alot.

[Kim]

Making Captain Shota stab Hinamori was pretty great, and I actually wish he did stuff like that more often. Too often he just talks all the time, or when he actually fights the fights themselves are rather boring.

[Bells]

He's probably my favorite villain ever just because of how audacious and ridiculous he is.

Not only i think you are 100% right, but i would add 2 things:

1- Aizen didn't even care that Tousen died, and he was his most loyal follower (Tousen saw Aizen as a Bringer of Justice and Balance).

2- Aizen's sidekick is Gin. Who not only is the second biggest Troll in Manga history, he is also a general creepy dick and the one guy Aizen should -not- trust.

So, yeah... Aizen is a Awesome Villain because of the whole Package.

[Lithp]

Killing anyone is easy for Aizen. If you don't even know that he's there, you don't know where, how, or even if there's an attack and thus cannot defend against it. He can walk up to someone without them realizing and decapitate them. Bam, dead captain.

Yamamoto alone disproved this. The fact of the matter is that the suggested plan is simply too complicated. What if someone wakes up? Notices his Reitsu? What if he can't mimic the Captains well enough & the survivors start to get suspicious? There's any number of ways for that plan to go wrong, even barring potential limits to the Zanpakuto that have been speculated on.

There's also the fact that his main objective (that we know of) was to get the Hougyokou & research the King's Key, & more recently, the fact that he was apparently testing Ichigo.

Also, Mesden has a point. Aizen seems to want his enemies to WATCH his rise to power.

Making Captain Shota stab Hinamori was pretty great, and I actually wish he did stuff like that more often. Too often he just talks all the time, or when he actually fights the fights themselves are rather boring.

More-or-less agreed. I was hoping that what was going on was that they were attacking Ichigo, though.

[Arcanum]

I'm going to bet that Aizen blew it up specifically so Ichigo could use the place as a hyperbolic time chamber.

From this point on I'm forced to believe that all of NonCon's predictions about Bleach will eventually come true.

[Kim]

I don't want to take credit for that one because I mean come on that's obvious as all hell. Aizen has said more than once recently that he's been doing everything that he can to make Ichigo stronger, and everything forever has always played into Aizen's hands. Ichigo being able to hyperbolic time chamber because Aizen killed the soul train was always a really obvious "ALL ACCORDING TO PLAN" move on Aizen's part.

I'm banking on either Don Kanonji or the Kidou Corps guy from the Urahara Shop saving Arisawa's life.

[Arcanum]

I still like your predictions and secretly hope they will be real because they will probably be better than what Kubo will actually give us.

And if it's not one of those two (although I really really really hope it's Don Kanonji) then it'll probably be Ishida's dad, as someone else (I think it was Kyanbu) predicted a while back. Or in some weird twist it'll be that one kid they were just talking about Mizuiro or whatever, and then they'll go on and explain that he's not really a human, and that's the reason why Ichigo was the first person he got close to.

[Donomni]

Calling it now: Mizuiro is the Spirit King.

Also, goddammit Kubo. I hate cliffhangers like that.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Hey Ha-Ichigo's back! And looking badder then before. So this means Ichigo might duke it out with Ha for a bit.

I'm hoping for it to turn out that way.

[Kim]

If Don Kanonji is plot relevant, which given Kubo's writing thus far seems likely, he will either show up somewhere in Karakura to delay Aizen, will be the Spirit King, or will be a guard of the Spirit King.

Mizuiro showing up and being surprisingly badass seems a reasonable guess, though I'm still leaning on Kidou Corps dude, at least for now.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

That foot looks like Don's to me. It's definitely him.

[Fenris]

God damnit Kubo.

[Arcanum]

God damnit Kubo.

I'm pretty sure this is an accurate response to any and all Bleach chapters.

[Bells]

Kubo is now pulling a Naruto, giving us Half a chapter per chapter... Damnit!

[Kim]

Shit. Just realized that I want Ganju to inexplicably show up during this arc. I just do.

He probably won't.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

He could show up since it'd make sense for him to want to check out the strange city that just magically appeared in the Soul Society.

[Kim]

He could show up since it'd make sense for him to want to check out the strange city that just magically appeared in the Soul Society.

I was actually just telling Fenris that. I'm not sure he will, because I really don't know what relevance or effect he could have in the current events, but he theoretically could.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

If anything he'd be a casualty at the least should he show up in the near future.

[Ecks]

So, apparently zanpakutou have separate spirit entities for their bankai? Pretty sure the guy in the hood's not the hollow. The sclera in his eyes weren't black.

Also, Ichigo and Isshin's swords both have "moon" in the name. I wonder what the disinction between en (Scathing) and zan (Cutting) is going to mean for Isshin, shikai-wise.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

So, apparently zanpakutou have separate spirit entities for their bankai? Pretty sure the guy in the hood's not the hollow. The sclera in his eyes weren't black.

Also, Ichigo and Isshin's swords both have "moon" in the name. I wonder what the disinction between en (Scathing) and zan (Cutting) is going to mean for Isshin, shikai-wise.

My guess. Engetsu's Shikai state would look something like this. A weapon of that type. (http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/White_Storm)

[Kim]

Ugh. The more I think about the Fake Karakura Arc the more I hate it. There were so many damn characters that could have gone bankai but didn't because Kubo wills it. Like, even before Aizen went butterfly-with-a-mullet, there were more than a few characters who could have used their bankais on him, but they didn't because Kubo wanted them to have something to show off later in the series. UUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH

[Lithp]

I always did love Kubo's weird-ass sense of symbolism for the Inner World. And fuck yeah, Hollow Ichigo! And he's got the weird horned mask! I LIKE where this is going.

But that goddamned boot had BETTER not be Don Konoji's.

What the Hell's going on in the top panel of Page 7?

NonCon: So, wait a second, am I getting this right: Your main problem with the Fake Karakura Town Arc is that Tite Kubo is saving some shit for later?

[Kim]

NonCon: So, wait a second, am I getting this right: Your main problem with the Fake Karakura Town Arc is that Tite Kubo is saving some shit for later?


That he's saving shit for later that it makes absolutely no sense for the characters to be saving for later. This is just Kubo dragging stuff out, with no payoff for him having done so. Bankais have always been one of the best things about Bleach, making up for some of the worst moments. So far as I can remember, we got two of them that arc. We got Captain Lesbian's rocket launcher, and Gin's sword. I actually tried to think of others, and couldn't.

Captain Lesbian's rocket launcher I'm not a huge fan of, but I can at appreciate it on a "so far different from what you expect" level. Gin's bankai is just incredibly boring and dumb.

Plus, let's say that Kubo had had them go all bankai. Are you seriously telling me he wouldn't have been able to pull some other move/ability/whatever out of his ass, and give some reason for why they didn't use it before?

On top of all that, it just makes NO SENSE from a character perspective. Shinji has had a fucking century to plan his vengeance. He was a captain so we know he has a bankai. Not only does he apparently have no plan for dealing with Aizen's hallucination ability, he doesn't even bother going bankai. This is supposed to be the characters going all out to stop Aizen because if they can't stop him here then they're screwed or something right? That's at least what the arc was sold as. But so many people didn't go bankai, and I really can't think of a single legitimate explanation for why.

[Lithp]

Ah, I gotcha now.

I actually tried to think of others, and couldn't.

I'm still maintaining that Yamamoto's Shikai & Bankai are indivisible, but other than that, I got nothin'.

Plus, let's say that Kubo had had them go all bankai. Are you seriously telling me he wouldn't have been able to pull some other move/ability/whatever out of his ass, and give some reason for why they didn't use it before?

Yes. You yourself said that "Bankais are the best thing in Bleach." If you think about it, Gin's Bankai isn't much different in its premise than Byakuya's. So why was it received so icily? Because Byakuya's was the INTRODUCTION to Bankai, while Gin's was the longest awaited one to date.

That changes everything. People have had time to build up anticipation for Gin's Bankai. If its ability is anything less than "makes you shit bricks," then some people are going to be disappointed. I myself am hoping that there's still more to it.

If Tite Kubo pulled new move out of his ass, the only way he could get anywhere NEAR that level of anticipation is Hado 99 or some new Hollow powers for Ichigo. And be honest with yourself, how often do you wonder what either of those will be, as opposed to the Bankais?

Shinji has had a fucking century to plan his vengeance.

Yeah, you'd really think Shinji would have learned.

But so many people didn't go bankai, and I really can't think of a single legitimate explanation for why.

Well, it's going to be hard to do that without knowing what they are. But one thing I like about Bleach is that it's not obligatory for a character to go into their SS4 state. They can be defeated before that happens, due to factors both within & beyond their control.

[Kim]

Nah, I think Byakuya's is pretty dumb, too. The only thing Byakuya's has over Gin's is that the shikai is out there enough that the bankai just being the shikai harder is just a tad more forgivable. I mean, compare "sword that turns into flowers only the flowers kill you" with "sword that gets longer" and it's pretty easy to see which is the cooler one. Byakuya's bankai still sucks, it just sucks less than Gin's. The only one, off the top of my head, that is as bad as those two is Captain Shota's bankai because that one's pretty lame, too.

[Lithp]

I actually really like Hitsugaya's Bankai. But you get my point. Once you have to come up with new shit, not only are you relying on making shit up to keep your audience, but you lose that sense of tension.

As for Gin's Bankai...I guess I don't really have any reason to be dissatisfied with it. All things considered, it most resembles modern actually effective weaponery. It's just not as impressive, somehow.

And, really, you ever stop to wonder what some of these are used for? How many situations can you actually USE a 13 KM sword in? The way I figure, all of that length is essentially wasted if it isn't flexible. If so, I'd hope it would slow down the sword, so as to keep balance.

[Kim]

Gin's bankai is supposed to be Bowser's blimp from Super Mario World, only instead it's just a giant version of Gin's smug, douchey face. Obviously. Why Kubo went with a really long sword I'll never know.

Urahara's bankai is a surfboard. He just rides your attacks and looks cool doing it.

Aizen's bankai is, to quote Fifth:

fck: fucking um
fck: Hypothetical velociraptors
fck: That attack you in your imagination
fck: So every time one bites you it tgears out an idea
fck: And the only way to fight them is stab yourself in the brain
fck: Boom
fck: Bankai
And someone, somewhere, has a bankai that is just David Bowie, and whenever they pull that out, their opponent just automatically loses.

[Grimpond]

And someone, somewhere, has a bankai that is just David Bowie, and whenever they pull that out, their opponent just automatically loses.

What actually happens is induced tunnel vision onto the crotch.

[Wigmund]

David Bowie is his own bankai.

Gin's bankai is supposed to be Bowser's blimp from Super Mario World, only instead it's just a giant version of Gin's smug, douchey face. Obviously.

7458

[Bells]

And, really, you ever stop to wonder what some of these are used for? How many situations can you actually USE a 13 KM sword in? The way I figure, all of that length is essentially wasted if it isn't flexible. If so, I'd hope it would slow down the sword, so as to keep balance.

Ah.... you know that his Bankai is not a 13km sword right? It's a Sword that can stretch and retract to cut anything in a 13km radius in 5x the speed of sound.

Which... is actually quite badass.

[Kim]

More like this...

http://i50.tinypic.com/2dl6x04.png

EDIT: One theory that I just threw at Fifth is that Gin's bankai wasn't actually his bankai. Basically, he lies about his shikai's limits so that when he uses its full power people think its his bankai, which means he has an ace in the hole if he ever is in trouble. Everyone expects him to have a bankai, but if they think his bankai is something other than what it is, when he actually does use it, it's a surprise. This theory is incredibly unlikely, and I have no real reasoning for it other than A. Gin's a lying prick. B. Kubo likes to fuck with the readers. C. I hate Gin's bankai.

[Lithp]

Ah.... you know that his Bankai is not a 13km sword right? It's a Sword that can stretch and retract to cut anything in a 13km radius in 5x the speed of sound.

Which... is actually quite badass.

Actually, as far as we've been told, it can only extend at 5x the speed of sound, not cut at it. That makes it a 13km sword with great thrusting power, but not much else.

I suppose it is sort of badass, but most people expected something flashier. Also, think about it in terms of versatility: What would something that long be USEFUL for?

I'm still kind of surprised it beat the Hollow mask, though. I thought for sure that would give Ichigo just enough of an advantage.

[Arcanum]

Gin's Bankai is great for instantly killing anything without them ever knowing he was there. His Bankai is essentially a sniper rifle, only in sword form. When he was fighting Ichigo he could have killed him with his first attack, but the only reason Ichigo is still alive is because Aizen has plans for him, and Gin wasn't allowed to kill him. I think Gin's bankai is pretty badass, simply because when he's in a position like in chapter 404, page 15 (too lazy to get a picture, it's where he holds his sword at chest level with both hands, with the blade perpendicular to his chest) all he needs is to make tiny changes in the direction his sword is pointing and he can keep stabbing at someone without bothering to exert any more effort.

Although if anything, I think that kind of Bankai would have been perfect for Soifon since it has such potential for assassinations, and killing without being seen.

[Aerozord]

Gin's Bankai is a machine gun. It extends and retracts so fast that he can fire hundreds of thrusts a second and so fast that its next to impossible to parry. Ichigo said it himself that basically if its pointed at you, you are dead. Course this is a shonen series so he isn't, but you get the idea

Also, Ichigo and Isshin's swords both have "moon" in the name. I wonder what the disinction between en (Scathing) and zan (Cutting) is going to mean for Isshin, shikai-wise.

was it that kanji though? Because while zan might mean cutting and getsu mean moon, zangetsu is the moon in early morning.

That he's saving shit for later that it makes absolutely no sense for the characters to be saving for later. This is just Kubo dragging stuff out, with no payoff for him having done so. Bankais have always been one of the best things about Bleach, making up for some of the worst moments. So far as I can remember, we got two of them that arc. We got Captain Lesbian's rocket launcher, and Gin's sword. I actually tried to think of others, and couldn't.

Captain Lesbian's rocket launcher I'm not a huge fan of, but I can at appreciate it on a "so far different from what you expect" level. Gin's bankai is just incredibly boring and dumb.


dont forget Love's who we see release it but not what it does.

[Kim]

My problem with Gin's bankai is less how useful it actually is, because that's irrelevant when the victor is frequently already decided, but that it just doesn't make for a very interesting fight.

[Lithp]

Although if anything, I think that kind of Bankai would have been perfect for Soifon since it has such potential for assassinations, and killing without being seen.

I suppose it wouldn't be bad, since she has the speed to bitch off after the attack. Also, the thing about the length is that 13km is hardly necessary. It may as well just fire projectiles. All of that length is going to waste. As a sword, it has few actual uses.

was it that kanji though? Because while zan might mean cutting and getsu mean moon, zangetsu is the moon in early morning.

I think it's usually translated as "moon-cutter."

dont forget Love's who we see release it but not what it does.

We saw Love's Bankai? All I remember is the giant club, which I'm pretty sure is the Shikai. It shot fire, but even if it didn't, not all Zanpakuto have special effects. Granted, they're the exception to the rule, but I still find it odd that people act like they're guaranteed.

[Aerozord]

We saw Love's Bankai? All I remember is the giant club, which I'm pretty sure is the Shikai. It shot fire, but even if it didn't, not all Zanpakuto have special effects. Granted, they're the exception to the rule, but I still find it odd that people act like they're guaranteed.

got the wrong name, but check ch 377, starting at page 3.

On another note, this chapter does have potential to be awesome. I mean he is showing personification of power and character developement through use of a mindscape. Does it well and it will be one of the best things I've ever read. Done poorly and its just a giant cop-out. I've come to expect both from Kubo

[Lithp]

The one who rescued Mashiro? 'Cause if so, it's wind control.

[Aerozord]

what makes you say that? they cut away immediately

[Arcanum]

Well they translated it as Iron Fist Cutting Wind, but then the guy is never mentioned or shown ever again. Looks like Kubo forgot about a loose end.

[Lithp]

He used it in the Turn Back the Pendulum Arc, that's why.

If I had to peg the biggest problem with the Fake Karakura Town Arc, that's it. We're just meant to assume that a lot of these characters are out-of-comission. We're never really shown what's going on with Unohona, the Visoreds fighting Wonderweiss, etc.

Maybe he's trying to set up a Big Damn Heroes moment later on? He IS very fond of that Trope. I don't know.

[Kim]

I also love that he builds up this whole "Rangiku is going to go confront Gin yeah!" thing at the end of at least one chapter, and then Aizen and Gin just leave Fake Karakura, and it's like "Whelp. Guess that didn't go anywhere."

[Lithp]

It didn't necessarily not go anywhere. In fact, we don't even know what she was planning.

[Kim]

It didn't necessarily not go anywhere. In fact, we don't even know what she was planning.

It spells out that she was going to "confront" Gin. That can't happen now unless she gets to real Karakura. She technically can get to Karakura, but that has its own problem. They're going to have to drag things out forever before she can show up. She can't show up sooner than an hour in manga time, because for it to be a dramatic "She showed up!" she can't cross paths with other characters, which means she can't go through the portal to real Karakura until after Ichigo finishes his training. So, all the time where characters fight Aizen until Ichigo comes out plus all the time Ichigo spends fighting Gin, and that's just to get a confrontation between Rangiku and Gin. I don't see this happening. More likely is the cop-out that Ichigo kills Gin, and Rangiku shows up as he's dying for his "I'm dying its time for a dramatic flashback" moment so it can be even more dramatic. So. Yes. It can go somewhere. Just nowhere good.

[Marelo]

Hey look Kubo chose option C, "She opened it before Ichigo and Isshin."

Also, I'm counting this as a prediction and you are officially a prophet.

[Kim]

Unfortunately, I didn't predict that Gin would just straight up stab her without drawing it out. My bad.

I had some theories when last weeks chapter came out.

Next twist will probably be that Aizen has no intention of making the key anytime soon, he just said that so Ichigo would follow him, and he plans on killing Ichigo's friends so Ichigo will be overcome by his hollow side. Ichigo will overcome his hollow side, becoming even more powerful, which was also part of Aizen's plan all along. Also, Keigo will probably be stabbed by Gin while trying to defend Arisawa with Afroshin's sword.

I was right about Keigo trying to defend them with Afroshin's sword, but didn't take into account that Afroshin might wake up, so that put a hitch in my plan, as did the fact that Gin didn't show up until after this happened. Rest of my prediction remains.

At least some of Ichigo's friends will probably be killed or almost dead. This isn't a big deal since Orihime can undo it later, which will probably happen much later on as part of making the story's happy ending even happier. However, I won't rule out that she brings them back sooner, or that Unohana brings them back from the brink of death while Ichigo is fighting Aizen or Gin.

We know that the Key is created by killing a lot of people on special ground or something like that. However, we don't know much more than that. My guess is that it's not that straightforward, because nothing in Bleach ever is. I wouldn't rule out Ichigo being/becoming the Key at this point.

Having Rangiku show up only to get stabbed seems rather pointless and dumb, and it kind of is, but it ultimately serves three purposes.

1. Gives Vice-Captain Emo something to get upset about when he reaches Karakura, because it's practically guaranteed at this point.

2. Anyone who thought that Gin was good at heart has now been proven wrong... sort of. It's totally plausible for Kubo to be making Gin a Snape character, but this makes it all the more unlikely. (Which sort of makes it more likely)

3. Kills any fan theories that Rangiku would change Gin with the power of love or theories that a female character would prove useful in Bleach.

[Aerozord]

shame the forum crashed right when we found out, yup, don kenoji shows up. That is it I am convinced he is just messing with us now. Like everytime someone posts a random theory on a forum they run the risk of having it actually happen

[Kim]

shame the forum crashed right when we found out, yup, don kenoji shows up. That is it I am convinced he is just messing with us now. Like everytime someone posts a random theory on a forum they run the risk of having it actually happen

To put it simply: Don Kanonji was always going to show up again. There's no way Kubo wasn't going to do something with the character, because every goddamn character ever has to show up, and him showing up now makes him less likely to be the King later or one of the King's guards. Maybe you didn't like Kanonji versus Aizen. I thought it was pretty rad, but was kinda ruined by Rangiku showing up. That said, if you're complaining about Kanonji showing up, you're practically saying "I wish he was more plot relevant" because that really was the only alternative. I know the Kanonji detractors just didn't want him to show up at all, but goddamn you practically had to have your fingers in your ears to not know something like this was coming.

[Lithp]

What's this about women not being useful in Bleach? Rukia killed the 9th Espada & the Exequitas. The ENTIRE Exequitas. On the other side, Halibel's 3 Fraccion practically destroyed the lieutenants, albeit through creating a monster.

As for Don Kanoji, I'm actually okay with it. Don't get me wrong, I'm irritated that the bastard showed up, but his bullshit was surprisingly subdued. Hell, he even managed to pull off a minor moment of awesome.

Lastly, having Rangiku show up only to get stabbed is a subversion of the pattern you would ordinarily expect. It turns this into an Anyone Can Die situation, even though Rangiku may not actually be dead yet.

Edit: Latest chapter was distressingly DBZ, although Mizuiro practically arming them to fight off the Marines was pretty cool.

[Bells]

3. Kills any fan theories that Rangiku would change Gin with the power of love or theories that a female character would prove useful in Bleach.

Except that Gin is likely to be the only person right now capable of Holding Aizen back untill Ichigo shows up.... considering how Tousen died and that how Rangiku is pretty much Gin's only characterization, it's now possible that he will turn on Aizen and something happened offscreen between him and Rangiku before her stabbing.

My guess? Aizen question Gin's Loyalty because he didn't kill Rangiku and they fight when Aizen suggest that he will finish her off himself. Gin dies when Rangiku gets there and that's when Ichigo shows up.

Shonen Progress at it's finnest

[Bard The 5th LW]

I actually liked those last few chapters. Kanonji was pretty awesome, although Rangiku appearing did sort of ruin it a bit.

I just sort of like the 'struggle to survive' type vibe that came from it. I just sort of enjoy those fights.

[Kim]

Except that Gin is likely to be the only person right now capable of Holding Aizen back untill Ichigo shows up....

Actually, I'm guessing that Tessai will show up and slow down Aizen. He's a very powerful character, and he hasn't really shown that off yet.

[CABAL49]

I am still holding out for Kon. Karakura Raizer cannot be beat.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Aizen's really enjoying his stroll of chaos through the city streets and fucking with Ichigo's friends. And Afro man is useless, utterly useless.

Tessai, the 2 kids that live with him, and Uryu's dad. those are the few people who could stand up to Aizen for at least less then 40 minutes.

[Lithp]

Short of that "discomfort between the 2!" line, I don't see why Gin & Aizen would turn on each other. Their entire team dynamic has been tolerating each other's bullshit.

[Bells]

Aizen has enough ground to question why Gin didn't finish Rangiku off, specially considering that down the line Aizen plan requires her to be dead too... it requires everyone to be dead. So, in the least, that's an awkward conversation coming up next

[Lithp]

Was Rangiku not stabbed in the clavicle? Did I imagine that?

Also, Aizen hasn't finished anyone off, as far as we know.

[Kim]

Aizen has enough ground to question why Gin didn't finish Rangiku off, specially considering that down the line Aizen plan requires her to be dead too... it requires everyone to be dead. So, in the least, that's an awkward conversation coming up next

If she's not dead, she's bleeding to death. Given that Aizen himself has left people in much the same condition, I don't think he's going to get bitchy about Gin doing the same, and that's assuming that she's alive and he somehow knows that. Neither is guaranteed.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Really, I don't think Aizen cares about anything that much right now. He's just doing this for the lulz. He figures he has time so he may as well screw with these guys who can run from him, and he doesn't care what goes down for a while.

I'm expecting some flashback or some shit where Gin left Rangiku hardly alive. Probably under the hopes she lives long enough for Some Squad 4 guys or Orihime to find her. Not because I like Gin or Rangiku though.

[krogothwolf]

Uh, Aside from like, I think the General dude. The only people to actually die currently have been enemies. Even Ol' Legless McShrimp is still alive right now. So yeah, I can't she Rangiku being the first to actually die on the Soul Society side after all that's happened and her death being so well, lame.

[Aerozord]

I dont blame Chiziru, they do seem almost disturbingly calm about all this. Especially that one kid that never even bats an eye.

Overall, chapter was kind of dull, I know it needed to be done for pacing but Kubo doesn't do the "implacable man" very well. Though its hard to do well in a comic format

[Wigmund]

Uh, Aside from like, I think the General dude. The only people to actually die currently have been enemies. Even Ol' Legless McShrimp is still alive right now. So yeah, I can't she Rangiku being the first to actually die on the Soul Society side after all that's happened and her death being so well, lame.

Actually, do we have any real proof that Grampa Stomp'em is really dead? Since this is Bleach, he could just be hiding somewhere waiting to pop out and declare this was his plan all along?

[Kim]

Practically everyone who was there seems to have stopped existing while everyone else does shit.

[Lithp]

Actually, do we have any real proof that Grampa Stomp'em is really dead? Since this is Bleach, he could just be hiding somewhere waiting to pop out and declare this was his plan all along?

The proof is the manga telling us repeatedly that he's dead & giving no implication to the contrary. I'm not going to pretend this isn't POSSIBLE, but Occam's Razor says he's dead.

[Wigmund]

But this is Bleach and Kubo is a troll

Practically everyone who was there seems to have stopped existing while everyone else does shit.

Re-checking the old issues, it looks like Capts Shortstuff, Bitchninja and Calvinball got cut down after they all tried to shank Aizen and he was like "lulz it's really Hinamori".

And then Grampa Stomp'em shows up and nukes the area they were in :ohdear:

[Lithp]

But this is Bleach and Kubo is a troll.

Occam's Razor.

Re-checking the old issues, it looks like Capts Shortstuff, Bitchninja and Calvinball got cut down after they all tried to shank Aizen and he was like "lulz it's really Hinamori".

But not all characters have as good of excuses to be MIA.

Unohona-Presumably healing the wounded, but she could still fight. Her Shikai alone allows this. Who's to say her bankai's power isn't just "heal & fight at the same time"?

Kensei-We never see the end result of his battle with Wonderweiss.

Love & Rose-I might be wrong about these 2, but IIRC, they were just kinda tossed away by Aizen. Did they hit their heads? If so, that's kinda lame.

Mashiro-Was she really in THAT bad of shape from Wonderweiss?

Even among the ones that were legitimately knocked out, we could really use an update on their progress, instead of half a page of a far away look at Aizen walking.

[Aerozord]

Occam's Razor.



doesn't really work in fiction, especially in shonen series. I mean according to Occam's Razor, which says the solution with the least number of assumptions is correct. This whole thing is just Aizen doing a mind screw.

[Lithp]

doesn't really work in fiction, especially in shonen series. I mean according to Occam's Razor, which says the solution with the least number of assumptions is correct. This whole thing is just Aizen doing a mind screw.

The problem is, if you say, "Occam's Razor doesn't matter," you can assert without evidence. You create an unfalsifiable claim. This makes it pointless to ask for "proof" that a character is dead.

The answer is obvious: The character is dead unless the death is retconned.

Occam's Razor does matter, because Occam's Razor only applies to how valid your argument is. Occam's Razor said that there wasn't a 10 Tail in Naruto. That doesn't mean that the people who said there wouldn't be one were wrong in their reasoning. It's not their fault that Kishimoto pulled it out of his ass.

Additionally, Tite Kubo hasn't really done anything so far that didn't have some kind of foreshadowing to it. It was implied that there was something wrong with Aizen's "corpse." Mention was made several times that Yammy was "storing up power" for something. Ulquiorra's 2nd release could be predicted by the fact that his power is similar to a Zanpakuto. We know that Aizen would power up with the Hougyokou at some point. Mention was made very early on that someone was sending Hollows after Ichigo.

[Grimpond]

I think the real problem here is what a terrible troll lithp is.

[Aerozord]

The problem is, if you say, "Occam's Razor doesn't matter," you can assert without evidence. You create an unfalsifiable claim. This makes it pointless to ask for "proof" that a character is dead.


first off thats not Occam's Razor, as I said its merely a method of logic to draw conclusions. The solution with the most evidence isn't always the correct one according to Occam's Razor

Secondly, yes thats exactly what I'm saying. This is fiction, there could be any number of reasons the "proof" isn't valid. Take Tousen for example. He had his throat stabbed, massive gash put in, then his body cut in half. Do you think it would suprise me, or many others, if he showed up again, alive?

[Wigmund]

Wait a minute...
if Lithp is a troll and so is Tite Kubo...
Lithp = troll = Tite Kubo
Lithp = Tite Kubo
Lithp is Kubo!!!

That's why we're predicting all this weird shit in Bleach with startling accuracy!
Lithp/Kubo milks NPF for ideas!!!!!

[Bard The 5th LW]

AWESOME!

NEXT CHAPTER, CAN YOU PUT IN SHARKTOPUS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK2bBfuepKk)!?

[Lithp]

Wait a minute...
if Lithp is a troll and so is Tite Kubo...
Lithp = troll = Tite Kubo
Lithp = Tite Kubo
Lithp is Kubo!!!

That's why we're predicting all this weird shit in Bleach with startling accuracy!
Lithp/Kubo milks NPF for ideas!!!!!

Shit, they're on to me! Well, since you asked so nicely...I'll do you even better. Can you say, Don Sosuke Sharktopus?

But, seriously, this is all a matter of asking a loaded question. If you ask for "proof" of a character's demise, this is what people are going to tell you.

Aerozord, I really don't know what you expect to get out of me. Surely we've had enough dealings that you know I don't do arguments from illogic. Just because something CAN happen, it doesn't mean we should consider it at all likely.

Also, the solution with the most evidence is the most valid according to Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor can't prove something correct. True/false=/=Valid/invalid.

[Aerozord]

I just want you to realize that reasonable assumptions aren't always the most likely ones. Writers make choices based on the needs of the narrative, not what makes the most real life sense or logic. For example losing your lower body should be a death sentence, but we saw that wasn't the case. Death is cheap in shonen series, actual perma-death is very rare of the good guys. Bleach is no exception where its even rare to off bad guys. Rangiku for example, the likelihood she is dead is almost non-existant. If death was to occur it would most likely be played for deeper emotional impact not simply for the characters but the readers. Not gonna off someone alone, off screen.

You aren't applying the right logic to your assumptions. Not that the logic is inherently wrong, just wrong for the subject matter.

[Fifthfiend]

Occam's Razor


http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3622/963982o.gif

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Shit, they're on to me! Well, since you asked so nicely...I'll do you even better. Can you say, Don Sosuke Sharktopus?

But, seriously, this is all a matter of asking a loaded question. If you ask for "proof" of a character's demise, this is what people are going to tell you.

Aerozord, I really don't know what you expect to get out of me. Surely we've had enough dealings that you know I don't do arguments from illogic. Just because something CAN happen, it doesn't mean we should consider it at all likely.

Also, the solution with the most evidence is the most valid according to Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor can't prove something correct. True/false=/=Valid/invalid.


As Aerozord said, Occam's Razor simply doesn't apply to fiction the same way it applies to most things.
You drop a ball, you can tell where it's going to go by Occam's Razor because it will take the simplest path down.

You give a ball to Tite Kubo, you can't say "He's going to take the simplest path to get that ball to the ground" because he's a nutjob and can throw it in any direction he pleases.

Knowing him, he'll stare you in the eyes and ask when it was you started to think Gravity worked, then toss the ball in the air and walk away. Leaving it perpetually floating.

[Kim]

And Lithp would defend it because the story never said gravity worked we just assumed it did.

[Lithp]

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]) is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem). The popular interpretation of this principle is that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. However, this is often confused, as the 'simple' "is really referring to the theory with the fewest new assumptions."

I'm not misusing this term. At all.

And I do not do arguments from illogic. I said that already.

If you want me to accept the notion that "occam's razor doesn't apply here," you're beating a dead horse.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I am of the firm belief that Occam's Razor should not apply to Bleach, or most other such show/manga/movie/book in the same Genre.

It doesn't really adhere to reality at all. Did anyone expect the Soul Tunnel to also Freeze Time? No. If someone did expect that, it would have made quite a few assumptions, yet still have been accurate.

[Aerozord]

I'm not misusing this term. At all.

And I do not do arguments from illogic. I said that already.


yea and I can say I peered into Tite Kubo's mind and am aware of his depraved mind. Doesn't mean that I actually do.

[edit] no better proof this chapter is dull, then this entire argument

[Sithdarth]

The problem with any fictional work, and Tite Kubo in particular, is that they are not bound by any logic but their own internal logic and sometimes not even that. The author, if he/she is any good, builds up an internal logical system as part of building the world and the story inside it. Sometimes this built logical system fits almost perfectly with the real world. Most of the time it doesn't and even worse on occasion you get a Tite Kubo. When dealing with fictional works one must learn the new logical system inherent in the work and work within it even if it seems illogical. You must also accept the sometimes even the logical rules of the world itself will be broken or that the imperfect information you have might make it seem like one set of rules are in place when they are not. In short, it isn't meaningless to theorize about a fictional work as long as you realize that there are essentially no rules and sometimes you have to submit to the illogic of the author.

In other news I'm very scared that we aren't going to get to see the end of Ichigo's internal struggle. It almost seems like Kubo is setting up the heroic entrance again and Ichigo is just going to pop up out of nowhere and stop the bad guys.

[IHateMakingNames]

The only character I care about at all at this point is Gin. There is something going on with him, what with just being creepy and the only guy left with Aizen.

There were other characters I liked, but I've since given up on them. Once a character not Ichigo gets their spotlight moment, they are immediately forgotten about, maybe coming back after 100+ chapters to hit something then go away. Gin (and maybe the playboy student) are the only guys left with a big reveal coming, excluding Aizen/Ichigo since they have limitless amounts.

[Aerozord]

Crazy Theory #34: The REAL real reason for this, is for Aizen to not gain power, become god, make the ultimate weapon, its simply to make a world that will accept him and Gin's forbidden love

[Kim]

Crazy Theory #34: The REAL real reason for this, is for Aizen to not gain power, become god, make the ultimate weapon, its simply to make a world that will accept him and Gin's forbidden love

You've been reading my fictions!

[Lithp]

no better proof this chapter is dull, then this entire argument

We can at least agree on this.

It doesn't really adhere to reality at all. Did anyone expect the Soul Tunnel to also Freeze Time? No. If someone did expect that, it would have made quite a few assumptions, yet still have been accurate.

Umm...no. Yoruichi made mention way back in the Soul Society Arc that the tunnel expelled them in a different timeline than was expected. True, the "1 hour is equal to blah" thing wasn't there, but you don't have to "assume" anything to know that the tunnel does something like that. It was stated in its first appearance.

The problem with any fictional work, and Tite Kubo in particular, is that they are not bound by any logic but their own internal logic and sometimes not even that.

Actually, the problem is that this is an endless chain of "There's no logic in Bleach"/"Yes there is" & no one is going to budge on this.

[Kim]

Bleach's logic could go fuck itself the moment that they were all fighting over something that could Deus Ex Machina if you wanted it hard enough.

[Lithp]

It can't do anything the host* can't already do. At least, that's what I got from that whole "guiding light" thing.

*=I'm not sure what other term to use for someone whose wish the Hougyokou is granting.

[Kim]

It can't do anything the host* can't already do. At least, that's what I got from that whole "guiding light" thing.

*=I'm not sure what other term to use for someone whose wish the Hougyokou is granting.

So Chad always had hollow arms, Orihime always had time powers, and Aizen was always a hollow?

[Aerozord]

no I see where he is coming from, but thats just an in-universe limiter saying it isn't all powerful.

However what Aizen, or whoever, is capable of is a matter of Kubo's whims. For all we know in Bleach all soul reapers have the potential to turn into godzilla, and dont think thats out of nowhere either. Already got one that turns into a cat so no like shape-shifting is outside their perview

[Lithp]

I'll grant you that, Aerozord. As for Orihime's & Chad's powers, the original explanation was that Ichigo's Reitsu had awakened latent spiritual abilities in them. So it's not as though not having the Hougyokou will fix that for you.

As for Aizen, I maintain that the Hougyokou is doing what we originally thought it did there: Breaking down the boundaries between Hollow & Soul Reaper.

Although I also meant that, at least so far, we haven't seen the Hougyokou do shit without raw material to work with. It's not like Ichigo said, "I want to win!" and Kenpachi spontaneously combusted. HE still had to fight & defeat Kenpachi with his OWN power. It didn't even have the decency to yank it all out & turn it into a laser to vaporize Kenpachi with.

TL;DR: The Hougyokou has limits. But I think we're agreed that what those limits are is kinda vague.

[Wigmund]

As for Aizen, I maintain that the Hougyokou is doing what we originally thought it did there: Breaking down the boundaries between Hollow & Soul Reaper.

Then it's revealed that Aizen is actually from Hell or is something else besides Hollow/Reaper/Human. This will probably be about the time Ichigo pops in at a dramatic moment to fight him and we get another 3-4 chapters of Aizen revealing plans for the plans of the plans of the planners who planned plans against his previous plans...bluh bluh plot shit...and further revelations on Aizen's grand scheme where he's come from Hell to level the playing field or some shit and what better way than dicking with everyone else.

Meanwhile Gin keeps standing around being a smug shit.

[Fifthfiend]

I'm not misusing this term. At all.

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt148/fifthfiend/reactions/2800e8m.gif

Lithp, I love you.

[Lithp]

Cute .gif. Now what's this all about?

[Fifthfiend]

The best, Lithp, you're the best.

Less obliquely, you're using a concept that cautions against making new assumptions, but dead characters not being dead isn't a new assumption, it's the existing, standard operating assumption for everything involving Bleach. A new assumption would be what you're arguing; that popular hero characters who currently appear to be dead are in fact dead. Dead characters in Bleach (who aren't mooks) are always alive, therefore Occam's Razor says that dead characters in Bleach will continue to be alive.

Putting it another way, other people are saying that Tite Kubo is going to continue to write stories the way Tite Kubo writes stories, on the basis that this is how Tite Kubo writes stories. You're the one introducing the new assumption that Tite Kubo will stop writing stories the way Tite Kubo writes stories and begin writing them an entirely different way. You're using Occam's Razor to argue that the sun is going to stop coming up in the morning, on the basis that we can't assume the sun will keep coming up just because it's consistently done so for hundreds of millions of years.

[Grimpond]

The best, Lithp, you're the best.

Less obliquely, you're using a concept that cautions against making new assumptions, but dead characters not being dead isn't a new assumption, it's the existing, standard operating assumption for everything involving Bleach. A new assumption would be what you're arguing; that popular hero characters who currently appear to be dead are in fact dead. Dead characters in Bleach (who aren't mooks) are always alive, therefore Occam's Razor says that dead characters in Bleach will continue to be alive.

Putting it another way, other people are saying that Tite Kubo is going to continue to write stories the way Tite Kubo writes stories, on the basis that this is how Tite Kubo writes stories. You're the one introducing the new assumption that Tite Kubo will stop writing stories the way Tite Kubo writes stories and begin writing them an entirely different way. You're using Occam's Razor to argue that the sun is going to stop coming up in the morning, on the basis that we can't assume the sun will keep coming up just because it's consistently done so for hundreds of millions of years.

:rolleyes: