How I Killed Your Master: Page 025 to ~046

[KillBill]

Lol. So much potential :P
Maybe all three!

[MSperoni]

But you're right on the boobs. :p

I think if I ever drew a character in HIKYM w/ boobs as big as Tsunade's I'd get in trouble...

I wonder how many stars and planets would have to align before that became a possibility?

ED: Assuming of course it was a possibility to begin with.

[Tryxx]

They eyes in panel 2 almost caused me to be hot for a cartoon character... They're essentially perfect.

[Green Spanner]

FLASHBAAAAAAACK!

Well it's about time we learned more about what went down in those ten years.

[GrandMasterPlanetEater]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c289/Deciheximal/run-balloon.png

Alternate speech bubble text:
Wong: "Come back! I love you!"
Fang Lin: "Sure. That's gonna happen."

[MP37a]

So is this technically a flashback in a flashback?

[GrandMasterPlanetEater]

So is this technically a flashback in a flashback?

It's a flashback in a flash forward in a flashback. I feel dizzy.

[KillBill]

Back to the Future!
Maybe that's his mom he's hookin up with.

[Ilmoran]

She's an art Frankenstein.

Tsk. She'd be the monster; Matt would obviously be the art Frankenstein.

[KittenMittons]

nope its not just you

[Aldurin]

So Fang's teacher is the next teacher for Wong? Or is Wong going to an all girls academy (with booze hidden under those robes) for some "kung fu action"?

[MSperoni]

Yes the Second Master is Fang Lin's teacher. You can kinda get an idea what she looks like from Page 34 (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/12/18/how-i-killed-your-master-034/). Or just wait till Monday :p She's one of those people who never seem to age so she looks pretty much the same :D

But no, it's not an all girl's school. There's a balance, three guys, three girls...well, the master is a female too so I guess 4 girls.. but Wong is a guy so 4 and 4.

[JamezBfod]

What a smug ass Wong is here. I smell hubris.

[Tev]

I smell a fist to the face.

[Menarker]

A fist to the face? Smells like blood. :3

Yeah, this will be interesting... plus how Wong performs will be the sort of first impression that he'll make to all his "classmates".
Fail and he'll be the class-clown and laughed at and such.
Succeed and he might get a smidge of respect or so.

[Green Spanner]

I can see that Wong's ego is going to be taken down a peg. Most likely with violence.

Though I wonder how he managed to get a high opinion of himself training under Fei...

[Menarker]

Well, next page is the 50th page, so I imagine things will be awesome...

Of course, I could be wrong entirely. ^^;

[MSperoni]

Maybe he figures if he can withstand Fei he can withstand anything.

[Solid Snake]

ATTN Matt:

Fang Lin's still hotter.
Sincerely,
Your Friend Snake

P.S. Looking forward to when you and Brian introduce me as the mysterious western mercenary who happens to be Fang Lin's boyfriend! :cool:

[MSperoni]

I'm torn. I'm leaning toward Fang Yun though :p


The mysterious Arabic mercenary who meets Wong and Fang when they travel to Ceylon? (noooooooooooo)

[randomhuman]

My god! all I could do for a good half-hour was laugh at the enevitable beating Wong is going to get... and it hasn't even happened yet.

[KillBill]

Cute chapter :P Nice change of flow

[[Chef Kawasaki]]

Wow, he looks like an annoying little git right here.

And now we wait for an ass kicking, yes?

[MSperoni]

Well, Wong should realize he's not in for a smooth ride. His puppet strings are being manipulated by the fellow who writes Warbot after all :D

[BattyAsHell]

;1026728']Wow, he looks like an annoying little git right here.

Well, he's a kid and already a master. Wouldn't you be cocky?

And now we wait for an ass kicking, yes?

Indeed. :D

Think they'll end up being an item?

[Aldurin]

*sings* "Everybody was Kung Fu fighting. and Wong's ass was flying!!"

[MSperoni]

Think they'll end up being an item?

Wong and Fang Yun? Well, she's in her mid 40s (even though she doesn't look it) and he's about 15 in this flashback so I dunno :p (probably not).

Wong and Fang Lin? That seems more possible, but he might have to go through Solid Snake first.

[Krylo]

I like the look on her face when he shoves the letter in it.

[Green Spanner]

Well, Wong should realize he's not in for a smooth ride. His puppet strings are being manipulated by the fellow who writes Warbot after all :D

I wonder what happened to John...

[MSperoni]

He got into working on another comic of his own.

[BattyAsHell]

I've gotta say, this webcomic sets a new standard in art quality. I thought Poe's work on Errantstory was top notch, but this makes his work look amateurish.

Plus, it doesn't have all the spelling and grammar errors. :D

[Solid Snake]

I've gotta say, this webcomic sets a new standard in art quality. I thought Poe's work on Errantstory was top notch, but this makes his work look amateurish.

Plus, it doesn't have all the spelling and grammar errors. :D

...This is why after I've made enough money I'm going to hire Mr. Speroni to draw one of my stories in webcomic form.
...Well, I'll either that or I'll kidnap him, lock him in my basement and force him to draw for me.

...For both our sakes, I hope I earn a lot of money.

[MSperoni]

...For both our sakes, I hope I earn a lot of money.

Me too! :D

Especially if the story is like we talked about the other day :)

[Loyal]

Post-Fei kid Wong is such an adorable douchebag. XD

[Jagos]

I still want him to get his ass kicked.

[Aldurin]

How come you never drew White Mage as hot as the women in this comic back when you made those two wallpapers for 8-bit?

[MSperoni]

I thought I did :sweatdrop

[Aldurin]

I thought I did :sweatdrop

But there was a lack of what Black Mage focused on the most.

[Domestibot]

^ Nah, even Black Mage himself once said that her robes were meant to emphasize her "chaste modesty," or something to that affect, so it stands to reason he's just staring REALLY hard.

[Solid Snake]

...I occasionally find it utterly hysterical how even the most brilliant artists on the interwebs can find themselves under such strange criticism.

...Yeah, White Mage doesn't look quite as I personally envisioned her. But that's part of an artist's prerogative. You can't force your own vision onto an artist. Prior to Matt's artwork we all had thousands of distinct thoughts on what White Mage might have looked like if she were...well...not pixelated. But Matt's version is true to his interpretation, and it's quite stunning and well drawn, even if it doesn't fit what some may consider conventional definitions of beauty.

I dunno. I mean, I'm not saying criticism is inherently wrong; I've criticized Brian's creative decisions with 8BT all the time. (I've even commented on Matt's prior commissions for me, but I think there's something of a difference between commissions you're paying for and content you're receiving for free. Among other things, commissions are intended to satisfy an audience of one, so subjective feelings about the artwork can carry more weight.) But there's a pretty huge difference between stating technical issues with the craft (plotholes or poorly executed scenes in writing, actual pronounced errors in artwork) and just ranting over how White Mage should have had better assets. The former has value; the latter is unnecessary commentary at best. What does such subjective commentary add aside from an opportunity to make the artist feel bad that he can't apparently please everyone?

[Bisected8]

Out of interest, where did she get those marks on her face from? Are they scars, tattoos or what?

[burnit999]

How come you never drew White Mage as hot as the women in this comic back when you made those two wallpapers for 8-bit?

Personally I like the wallpaper... I guess people just have different tastes.

Also, I don't think that black mage is the kind to only stare at those with the "large assets" as you seem to suggest :D

@MSperoni I am loving this comic, keep up the good work! :cool:

[MSperoni]

Out of interest, where did she get those marks on her face from? Are they scars, tattoos or what?

I think of them as tattoos, but they're not really inky looking so I dunno :p

Or maybe they're like war-paint... I just wanted to give her something that kinda looked like whiskers for a kind of wild or feral look (to go w/ the Tiger motif).

[BattyAsHell]

I still want him to get his ass kicked.

We definitely will, but I suspect it won't be by the master. Wouldn't really be a fair test. (Even if he mastered an art already, he's still an inexperienced punk kid.)

We'll probably see Wong get beat down by her star disciple and his potential future love interest.

[Bisected8]

I think of them as tattoos, but they're not really inky looking so I dunno :p

Or maybe they're like war-paint... I just wanted to give her something that kinda looked like whiskers for a kind of wild or feral look (to go w/ the Tiger motif).

I guessed that. Of course if they're scars, that implies she built her entire motif around an oddly specific facial injury...

[MSperoni]

I suppose if they are scars, she could be a masochist and they could be self-inflicted..That'd be kind of bizarre tho.

but I lean more toward tattoos or paint :)

[Tree]

In the 4th panel, with her face and 2 fingers, she looks like she's gonna jab his eyes out or something (Kill Bill Style? Lol)

[GrandMasterPlanetEater]

Hey, I recognize the fellow in the back in panel 2. It's that guy from the bathroom signs showing you how to wash your hands! I wondered what he had been up to lately.

[Domestibot]

This new page really sheds some light on Fang Lin's quickness to run from the city guard in the future. Obviously she was about to receive her 100th citation from the municipality.

[KillBill]

Good stuff :P "Gonna get raped" comes to mind.

[Tev]

Man Wong just keeps digging his grave deeper.

As for the face marks, it's odd. The ones on the right side of her face look raised as if they are actually scars. The ones on the left side look flat as if they are painted on. It looks to me like she got one side of her face cut up in a fight and just painted lines on the other side to sorta even it out.

[Perturabo]

I keep looking at the last pannel and expecting to see the master ordering Fang Lin to run one hundred miles to make sure she's not making empty boasts.

It might have something to do with her expression.

[Green Spanner]

Someone's gonna get an ass-kickin'.

CALLING IT NOW.

[rpgdemon]

So, is it Fang Lin's "thing", to go "One hundred <X> are as one!"? :P

[Aldurin]

I'm gonna be the first to predict that Wong gets his ass kicked so he can't qualify for learning and will end up learning the Tiger Knuckle from Fang five years later.

Just a guess.

[Art of Hilt]

This new page really sheds some light on Fang Lin's quickness to run from the city guard in the future. Obviously she was about to receive her 100th citation from the municipality.

A hundred citations is as ONE to a Tiger Knuckle disciple!
Mostly due to all the running away and etcetera.

[randomhuman]

A hundred citations is as ONE to a Tiger Knuckle disciple!


hahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAA! you're mind is a great one!

[BattyAsHell]

"A hundred miles are as one to a Tiger knuckle disciple"?

They made that up on the spot just to mess with him, didn't they. ¬¬

I'm not so sure if Wongs going to get his ass kicked or not. All the signs point to yes, but Fang Lin has an attitude on her too..

I vote Wong gets embarrassed initially, than regains some face in a rally attack. Wongs cockiness demands knocking him down a notch, but you also can't have your star look like a loser...

I keep looking at the last pannel and expecting to see the master ordering Fang Lin to run one hundred miles to make sure she's not making empty boasts.

It might have something to do with her expression.

Wong should've dared her. Said something like "Than it should be nothing for you to jog 100 miles as warm up while this unworthy opponent takes the opportunity to rest from his 500 mile journey."

[MSperoni]

Wong should've dared her. Said something like "Than it should be nothing for you to jog 100 miles as warm up while this unworthy opponent takes the opportunity to rest from his 500 mile journey."

I think Wong's sexist comment might piss her off enough already.. Besides even if Wong wasn't worn out I don't think he could beat her :p

.. but you also can't have your star look like a loser...

Keep in mind the other two comics on this site are Warbot and 8-bit :p

[Domestibot]

A hundred citations is as ONE to a Tiger Knuckle disciple!
Mostly due to all the running away and etcetera.

haha, yes, totally where I was going with that.

This calls into question whether or not Tiger Knuckle disciples get some kind of amnesty in the judicial system, or super great bargains on produce at the grocery store.

"A hundred apples are as ONE to a tiger knuckle disciple!" Now THERE'S a discount!

[Kerensky287]

So, is it Fang Lin's "thing", to go "One hundred <X> are as one!"? :P

Tiger Knuckle revolves around crazy splash damage, calling it now.

[Meister]

Wong in a nutshell: meets female master of Tiger Knuckle style, dismisses top student as "just a girl."

[MSperoni]

Yeah that doesn't seem very sagacious on Wong's part, does it?..

[Corel]

Yeah that doesn't seem very sagacious on Wong's part, does it?..

You've got to cut the little guy some slack when you realise who exactly has been his rolemodel/teacher for these past few years. Probably telling him everyone and anyone is a pathetic weakling maggot, especially the ladies.

[KillBill]

That army that came after Wong in the intro, surprised they're gonna stick around for this whole story :P
But that could work out good in the end in two ways. One, it lets an old man's story go down to become a legend even after he dies; and two, maybe they'll become his students after the story's over. After all, if the guy who came after Wong has stuff to learn from Wong, and the rest of them are following him, it makes sense that they'd all become his students in the end.

[MSperoni]

Maybe they're getting paid by the hour so the longer Wong's story is the better :)

[BattyAsHell]

I think Wong's sexist comment might piss her off enough already.. Besides even if Wong wasn't worn out I don't think he could beat her :p

Well, Wong was also acting pretty cocky for a guy who claims he's tired. Plus he's a kid. At his age, do they ever really get tired? :D

I was thinking maybe he's just trying to buy enough time to scout the opposition, before fighting them. Catch them in training, like he did Fei's students.

Although, now he has an excuse for losing.. "Your best student wouldn't have kicked my ass if I was rested!"



Keep in mind the other two comics on this site are Warbot and 8-bit :p

When you put it that way..

Poor Wong. :eek:

[MSperoni]

I think also Fang Yun's point is that if he's a "master" he shouldn't have any problem beating a "student" be he tired or well rested.

(plus we also don't know what that letter Fei wrote to Fang Yun said :p It could be that Wong was doomed from the start whether he boasted or not)

[Domestibot]

"Dear Fang Yun,

Merry Christmas! I hope you like your new "Liu Wong" brand punching bag! (I know I won't have to ask twice for you to whale on this little twat a bit.) If you get tired of him, just tell him he's a "master" and throw him at the next dragon. How's life in the desert treating you these days?

Your pal,
Fei Xian

PS Whatever happened to that five bucks?"

[Green Spanner]

(plus we also don't know what that letter Fei wrote to Fang Yun said :p It could be that Wong was doomed from the start whether he boasted or not)

"I grow sick of training this incompetant fool. He is your burden now.

Your pal

-Fei"

[Tev]

How many students does she have again? I think Wong is in for a long line of poundings until he settles to the bottom of the class.

[Green Spanner]

Someone's gonna get an ass-kickin'.

CALLING IT NOW.

THIS PROVES THEY GET ALL THEIR IDEAS FROM ME.

[Domestibot]

It also proves that with 8-bit theatre ending soon, Wong just got himself inaugurated as Nuklearpowers new whipping boy in Black Mages stead.

[BigDemonicBunny]

What Wong is experiencing is classic martial arts "inbreeding".
That is, he's VERY good at fighting others that use the same style as he himself. But he's awful at fighting outside the formulaic combat that results from two "identical" (not really identical as every individual has their own tendencies, but very similar) opponents.
Overall the entire reason why Mixed martial arts leagues had a resurgence.

Fei knows that mastery of your own art can only be achieved by fighting against all sorts of enemies, even if you don't incorporate their style into your own.
Which is probably what Feis letter said.

"Wong is a good kid, but he doesn't have much experience in the real world. Teach it to him."
-Fei

And given that old-school china wasn't much for modern western pedagogics this involves "teach it to him the hard way", because to them the only way is the hard way (and infinitely better than the "very hard way" which involved getting killed in your first serious duel).

[MSperoni]

One thing I did was give each individual Tiger Knuckle Student their own "spin" .. like each has their own variation of the core style.

Student 3 is more technical, Student 4 uses more power attacks, Student 5 uses grapples, etc. (we'll get a brief demonstration here on the next page :p )

[Krylo]

Also, he's just finished a long run and he looks to be in his early/pre-teens while his opponents all appear to be mid to late teens or even early twenties.

He seems to be physically outclassed by leagues.

And with each lost match/injury his disadvantage increases.

[Tev]

Student 3 is more technical, Student 4 uses more power attacks, Student 5 uses grapples, etc. (we'll get a brief demonstration here on the next page :p )
I think Wong is in for a long line of poundings until he settles to the bottom of the class.

Seems I thought right. I look forward to the beatings.

EDIT: I like how right now we also seem to be caught in a flashback within a flashback. Is there even a term for that?

[Loyal]

"How I Killed Your Master" should be "How I Got My Ass Kicked By Every Nancy In Asia".

[BigDemonicBunny]

"How I Killed Your Master" should be "How I Got My Ass Kicked By Every Nancy In Asia".

Umm. Nancies?
If anything Wongs fault is that he has a tendency to challenge people he's either not very well matched against or way above his league.

I sense the "Imperial Guardsman paradox". On one hand they're equipped with flak armor capable of anything but what would today qualify for use against armored vehicles and their standard weapon is something capable of blowing a fistsized hole through a feet of concrete.
On the other hand they're cannonfodder because their opponents do have weapons capable of punching through armored vehicles and they're either armored with something more resistant than a feet thick layer of concrete (everyone except orks, imps and small 'nids) or they're fully capable of surviving despite someone blowing a fist-sized hole through their abdomen (everyone except eldar, imps and tau).

None of them would qualify as a "nancy", but then badassedness is a relative thing.

[GrandMasterPlanetEater]

It's just so unfair! He never got a chance to rest from his travels. Foolish Wong and his ego.

I also notice he's fighting in a dress.

[Blayze]

Smooth move, Wong. What do you do for an encore? Eat razor blades? Juggle grenades? Bait tigers?

[Kerensky287]

So every student of the Tiger Knuckle has been ranked in order? Must kind of suck for the dude at the bottom of the totem pole.

And yeah, tactless Wong is tactless. "Hi, my name is Fang Yun! HERE IS FANG LIN, MY MOST ACCOMPLISHED STUDENT. WE MAY OR MAY NOT BE RELATED. ALSO WE ARE OF THE SAME GENDER." "But she's just a giiiiirl." "Kick his ass."

EDIT: Just reread the archive and a bit of this thread... it never occurred to me that the dude with the hilarious pompadour on page 34 is YOUNG FEI XIAN. He looks like the goddamn Fonz. I just might have to photoshop that face onto every combat panel he has, with the caption "Eyyyyyyy!"

[Loyal]

Curiously long spiel.

Okay fine: Every Jack, John, and Larry, With A Few Nancies.

[Knight13]

I sense the "Imperial Guardsman paradox". On one hand they're equipped with flak armor capable of anything but what would today qualify for use against armored vehicles and their standard weapon is something capable of blowing a fistsized hole through a feet of concrete.
What do you call a lasrifle with an attached flashlight? Twin-linked

[Martyr]

ROFL. So this poor kid treks through the desert, he's exhausted, and he comes to the place where he's to train.
I can understand everything about sparring for dominance, and I can understand the "no mercy" thing, but even still, the fact that these expert martial artists can beat up an exhausted child warrior is hardly impressive.
I mean, I can drop-kick a crippled frog across a basketball court. It's funny. I'm stronger than a frog. In the grander sense of measuring my capacity for kicking frogs however, it doesn't mean much.

Is kicking frogs something people do in your country? They don't seem to do it in mine...

[Captain Boom]

Perhaps the lesson Wong is being taught here is to:

1) Be selective in your fights. What good is ego when you are about to be pounded by 7 students (probably the teacher will join in the fun as the "8th" student afterwards).

2) You need to be in top shape, so he should train so he can fight when he has travelled for a while. Bandits that pick you up on the side of the road after you have travelled for a long time aren't going to care you are exhausted.

3) Don't go picking unnecessary fights. Links with 1.

4) If his style is getting beaten so badly by these other students, then what good is that Praying Mantis style thing? Is it only to good beat up thugs with, but useless against other martial artists? At least it can beat up thugs. So black belt in martial artists get beat up thugs in real life. Perhaps Wong is being paralyzed with adrenaline.

5) He should at least learn about his opponents a bit before fighting them so he knows what they do.

Hopefully as the fights go along Wong learns to adapt he style to counter this school and incorporate it into his fighting style. That would be fun to see. I bet he's just playing with the students, then he can give them the good old sucker punch when it comes to the next fight. Also when you think about it who were Wong's sparring partners back when he was with Master Fei? Those two sons of Fei's were pretty useless. And Master Fei would probably have just beat Fei to the ground half the time. I have hope for Wong! Go Wong. I didn't come here to see Wong drink tea with a gang of thugs for no reason. Hurry up and grow up already.

[MSperoni]

.. the fact that these expert martial artists can beat up an exhausted child warrior is hardly impressive..


Unlike Wong though, none of them claimed to be experts.Would Fei have any trouble with these kids if he were worn out?


Aside: Fang Yun only has six students, btw.

[Geminex]

Very nice. It is made abundantly clear that wong's quest for physical and skill will have to be coupled by an equally arduous quest for wisdom and personal/emotional development.

Comparing the Wong we currently see getting beaten up with the Wong we first met, who drinks tea with the man who wants to kill him, it's an interesting contrast. And the road shall be rocky indeed, I expect.

One more thing:
I actually really liked the speed-lines that you were using initially. You said yourself that this is a "martial arts movie in comic book form", or something of a sort, and the speed lines really helped compensate for the fact that you got at most 2-3 panels for every second of combat, instead of the 24 panels you get in movies. It just helped the reader follow the movements, and conveyed... fluidity? Yeah.

It doesn't have an impact at the moment, because we're not actually seeing a full, detailed battle, but in the many, many full-blown martial-arts duels we will (hopefully) be seeing in the future, seeing precisely where the fist came from would really bring it to life.

Just my two cents.

[Perturabo]

*Reads comic of a worn out Wong having his face punched in by older and more experienced fighters of another style.

Starts counting down the comics until the Worf Effect hopfully kicks in on all of Fang Yun's students.*

[MSperoni]

You said yourself that this is a "martial arts movie in comic book form"

Brian said that, not me.

And there are speedlines... they appear quite a bit actually :sweatdrop (most recent example is the most recent page). They're just less visible now than they were back when it was in black and white because I think they look like shit in color (w/o proper filtering)

[KillBill]

Good stuff :P Since our hero's not getting screwed over quite as much as Warbot, and it's come-uppin's for overconfidence, remains quite funny.
Seems like them thar tiger-knucklers gots some kinda focus on speed. (Cat-related, should be no surprise...) Might help him use his pwnsauce Master Fei moves all the better.

[BattyAsHell]

Unlike Wong though, none of them claimed to be experts.Would Fei have any trouble with these kids if he were worn out?


Aside: Fang Yun only has six students, btw.

Yeah, Wong had it coming.

I guess the main lesson is one in humility.

Does this mean Wong didn't, in fact, master Fei's art? I thought it was kind of strange that he mastered something in a year or so that Fei spent his entire life on.

[MSperoni]

I think that's why Wong is coming off as full of himself. He might have mastered it as far as he could take it at the time, but w/o any experience he's only a master of theory and not application (like he knows the formula, just not how it works in practice).

Sorta like "Mastering" the easiest difficulty on a video game or something. Not that Fei's style is easy, just maybe Fei didn't really show Wong all the ropes yet and Wong just assumes he's mastered it.

As sadistic as Fei is, maybe he just hoped Wong would think he was a master and go pick fights and get destroyed.

[Green Spanner]

As sadistic as Fei is, maybe he just hoped Wong would think he was a master and go pick fights and get destroyed.

Wouldn't that damage Fei's ego though? A guy claiming to have mastered his art getting wrecked every time would make him look bad...

[MSperoni]

Maybe the letter says:

"The kid hasn't mastered shit, don't tell him though.

--Fei"

[Solid Snake]

...I could see Fei believing the kid wasn't remotely ready to fight but just getting sick and tired of him and looking for an excuse to get the young'un to leave.

[MSperoni]

"You're a Master now! Go kill Xu Li!"

"But I haven't discovered my Father's hidden technique, Master Fei!.."

"Yes you have!"

"When?"

"Just now... I mean, I've never seen such rapid development in a student.."

"Really?"

"Yes, now do this *martial arts gesture*.."

"Okay.. *mimes Fei's gesture*.."

"See?! Perfect form! Fist of the Unconquerable Sky! Now go away."

"Yay! *skips away*"

[Kurosen]

I thought it was kind of strange that he mastered something in a year or so that Fei spent his entire life on.

We flashed forward 10 years from when Fei started to officially train Wong. Then we went back 5. So, it's been five years. Still pretty unrealistic, but a little better than one year.

Maybe Fei's a really good teacher and/or Wong's a really good student.

[Tev]

Maybe Fei's a really good teacher and/or Wong's a really good student.If you back-hand someone in the face often enough over the course of five years, they quickly learn how to avoid it.

[Jagos]

And Wong can run really fast.

Put him and Forrest in a race and they may tie.

[Gitman]

We flashed forward 10 years from when Fei started to officially train Wong. Then we went back 5. So, it's been five years. Still pretty unrealistic, but a little better than one year.

Maybe Fei's a really good teacher and/or Wong's a really good student.

Not so unrealistic. I'm a martial artist myself, and I was able to make black belt in my style in under a year, training maybe 4-5 hours per week. Black belt for my art means you've mastered the basics, i.e. you can do all the forms confidently and hold your own in the ring. I wouldn't call myself a master, but I might if I'd been doing it for 5 years, 50-60 hours per week (a reasonable assumption for Wong).

I suspect the reason Wong is getting pwnz0rd is a combination of things. He admits he's tired from his journey, for starters. He also has probably never fought a student of another style, or been in a street fight, so he only knows how to apply his training when sparring with other Five Mantis fighters.

Also, for character development, he needs a lesson in humility. ;)

By the way, hi! *waves* First post.

[MSperoni]

Plus I think it's reasonable to assume that all the Tiger Knuckle Kids have also been training constantly, and maybe for more than five years.

I mean, Wong was only at Fei's for 5 years. It could be that Fang Lin has been with Fang Yun for her whole life, which is to say 15-16ish years at this time. Also with six students there to spar with instead of two like Wong had (the two of Fei's kids hardly competent) she's probably had a lot better practice.

[Gitman]

Exactly. Wong may be as much a master as he claims, but he's fighting older, bigger, stronger, more experienced students, with the disadvantage of fatigue, and with the far bigger disadvantage of overconfidence.

[Aldurin]

When they get through all of the students, Fang teacher person will probably bring out a monkey that was taught this style to try to measure Wong's competence.

[Sithdarth]

The founder of my style is often quoted as saying "Sparring without contact is like swimming on dry land." Now I can hardly see Fei's sons wanting to spar much less being good enough to make any solid contact at all. Add to that sparring with Fei himself would be absolutely useless as a learning experience and you can understand why Wong has no practical fighting experience. Though I am surprised that after Wong got done with the running training Fei didn't have him running to town everyday to beat up bandits.

In the style I take its generally almost a decade before you're considered for your black belt. Then they make you write a 15 page or so thesis, take a 20 some odd page written test, and then do a 3 hour physical test which no one has ever left without an injury of some kind. (I got my nose broke and felt like death for about 3 days.) They say a black belt in my style can take out at least 3 attackers in at most 10 seconds. I don't know if I could do that as I've never tried but my sensei apparently has faith in my ability since he gave me the belt. It's a more traditional and rough Karate style than most but seeing as am I giant with almost no finesse it suits me well. Anyways back to the point anyone at the 5 year mark is good enough that its basically all refinement and basically no learning. At least nothing you can't learn yourself through practice. So its not too surprising Fei sent him somewhere new to get new experiences and learn new things since Fei probably knew from then on it was up to Wong to train himself.

Edit: To put it another way Wong mastered the style but he hasn't mastered himself and therefore is not yet a master. That's sufficiently eastern sounding right?

[Jagos]

Are you taking Goju-Ryu?

It's going to be odd to see what Fei does. More than likely he may have a moment where he starts to doubt himself. If that happens, I'm sure our girl is going to be the one to knock him back onto the course of a martial arts master.

[Captain Boom]

Wong will prevail, I'm sure of it. Otherwise we wouldn't be here listening to flashbacks of flashbacks over tea.

Also I think Wong still has that lesson in humility to learn in the 10 years later part. Sure he knew he could easily dismiss the 5 attackers when they were not on their guard (there is some similarity it seems with the way the yellow guys were beaten up to the way Wong is getting pummeled now 5 years before) but he wasn't prepared for the yellow guys' sneak attack later. Perhaps something similar will happen here where Wong beats the 6 students asses in the next fights. That is after he's done with his current beating.

Also I was just thinking, what if Xu Li's wrath isn't martial like. What if it is more like he orders 100 bowls of noodles in someone else name or gets crimes wrongly blamed on someone else or something like that.

[Aldurin]

Also I was just thinking, what if Xu Li's wrath isn't martial like. What if it is more like he orders 100 bowls of noodles in someone else name or gets crimes wrongly blamed on someone else or something like that.

I don't think it will be the Garland/Doofenschmirtz style of villiany. Hopefully he'll be awesome evil where the few competent actions he chooses to do are enough to feed his reputation.

I demand at least Dr. Nefarious quality out of his style of evil.

[BattyAsHell]

Wong will prevail, I'm sure of it. Otherwise we wouldn't be here listening to flashbacks of flashbacks over tea.


...and what kind of tea is that, anyways?

I'm guessing Chinese oolong. Or maybe ginseng?

Also, I miss Po.

[Aldurin]

I think that's vodka/whiskey mix with sugar, not tea.

[Solid Snake]

...Heh.

I would have preferred this sequence if we received an indication that Wong was still goading the instructor into sending the additional students after him.
...As is, it felt a bit like overkill for the poor guy. After the first two losses, it should have been obvious enough the kid wasn't fit to fight.

[BattyAsHell]

...Heh.

I would have preferred this sequence if we received an indication that Wong was still goading the instructor into sending the additional students after him.
...As is, it felt a bit like overkill for the poor guy. After the first two losses, it should have been obvious enough the kid wasn't fit to fight.

Wong pretty much disrespected a master in her own house, in front of her students, and insulted her entire gender to boot. There's masters that'd probably kill someone for less. Plus, if she's friendly with Fei she's probably an arsehole too. :D

[Loyal]

What was that move #3 did?

And I like how #6 doesn't even look like she fought him, and instead just straight up bitch-slapped him.

After the first two losses, it should have been obvious enough the kid wasn't fit to fight.Considering Fei has apparantly not taught him humility, how to gauge an opponent, or even make a good judgment call, I'd say Wong could stand to use the lesson(s).

"I don't know where Fei messed up with you, but I will not have a dolt learning my style. First you learn where you are going wrong, then I will teach you to fight."

[KillBill]

They were just too fast for him :P
Nice texture on the floor there

[Sithdarth]

What was that move #3 did?

And I like how #6 doesn't even look like she fought him, and instead just straight up bitch-slapped him.


Looks like for his fight with #3 he actually managed to get an attack off with his arm. #3 then promptly block/grabed it and used Wong's momentum to amplify the power of the back of his fist hitting Wong's face. Possibly with some sort of sweep or throwing technique for good measure.

From the looks of hit #6 used a straight up "Karate Chop" type attack probably coming down and slightly at angle into the side of neck/shoulder area. Although it's kind of hard to tell which side she hit exactly from that angle without an actual 3D rendering. What we're seeing is the recoil after the strike. Although it totally could have been a slap. There are slapping techniques in my style and when done right with the whole body they are just as painful and dangerous as any other technique.

[Domestibot]

Although it's far more likely that Wong is simply not used to facing opponents who use another style, does anyone here feel it at all plausible that he was perhaps deliberately sent to Fang Yun because Tiger knuckle focuses on attributes that are inheritently underdeveloped in Five Mantis Fist? I'm not at all suggesting that the latter is inferior to the former, just that perhaps there's a balance between the five styles, a natural order of progression, perhaps?

[Green Spanner]

I wonder is this turn of events is going to be repeated at every place Wong goes...

[Captain Boom]

I wonder is this turn of events is going to be repeated at every place Wong goes...

If that's the case, each style of fighting is pretty useless if the first 2 style together gets pummeled by the 3rd style. Then why even bother with the 3rd and 4th? Might as well just go to the 5th style and master that style.

I don't think Wong would let this pummeling happen again. I think he'll be ready next time. He'll have some dream sequence with a flashback to something Fei told him.

Oh Wong, you didn't use your special weapon. You should have used your special tea. With cyanide. Wong should have followed Xu Li and used poison.

I miss Po. Maybe he turns out to be the 5th master? Maybe he'll reiterate his warning to Wong.

[Green Spanner]

I miss Po. Maybe he turns out to be the 5th master? Maybe he'll reiterate his warning to Wong.

Maybe Po...is Xu Li in disguise!

WHAT A TWEEEEEEEST!

[Gitman]

...Heh.

I would have preferred this sequence if we received an indication that Wong was still goading the instructor into sending the additional students after him.
...As is, it felt a bit like overkill for the poor guy. After the first two losses, it should have been obvious enough the kid wasn't fit to fight.

Seriously. That's just sadistic. If she actually wanted to assess the kid, she should start him off against the least accomplished student. Hell, for all we know he might have won that fight if he hadn't just had the stuffing beaten out of him five times in a row. It seems more like she enjoys humiliating him. A trait her "most accomplished student" seems to have learned well. She may have just been annoyed at Wong's arrogance, but she clearly has no respect for him. Sending him against every one of her students, no holds barred, starting with the most accomplished, without a chance to rest? Yeah, she just wants to wipe the smug smile off his face. She knew after the first match he wasn't up to snuff.

[Ilmoran]

Something occurs to me: If Tiger Knuckles disciples measure themselves against each other, and "A hundred opponents are as one to a Tiger Knuckles Disciple", then shouldn't there be only one Tiger Knuckle master?

To prove themselves, they'd have to be able to take on 100 opponents, who may include other Tiger Knuckles. But if a master of Tiger Knuckle could defeat several others including other Tiger Knuckles, then when any other Tiger Knuckle tried to be acknowledged as a master, they'd have a problem defeating 100 opponents that could now include the Tiger Knuckle master. :confused:

Or it's just a boast.

Hmm... maybe that's it... He's not here to learn humility, he's here to learn a proper boast!

Fei's letter: "This kid knows a little about fighting, but his taunts need some work. Show him how to make his opponents fear his ridiculous boasts."

[MSperoni]

Could be a grudge between her and Fei.. maybe Fei's letter said:

"This is my best student, he's a million times better than all of your crappy students put together and he said so AND wrote a book about it which became a national best seller which you didn't get because you probably still can't read since you spend all your time training your crap students to be halfway decent! Wong also agrees. It will be just like the old days when I used to beat you constantly.

Your Pal,

Fei

P.S I'm not your pal. "

[Ilmoran]

Could be a grudge between her and Fei.. maybe Fei's letter said:

"This is my best student, he's a million times better than all of your crappy students put together and he said so AND wrote a book about it which became a national best seller which you didn't get because you probably still can't read since you spend all your time training your crap students to be halfway decent! Wong also agrees. It will be just like the old days when I used to beat you constantly.

Your Pal,

Fei

P.S I'm not your pal. "

That could make writing the letter a little pointless :sweatdrop. Unless Fei really drew a bunch of pictures, and this is just the idea he was attempting to convery ;)

[Aldurin]

Wong could take them. All he has to do is get the fire flower out of his luggage.

[BattyAsHell]

If that's the case, each style of fighting is pretty useless if the first 2 style together gets pummeled by the 3rd style. Then why even bother with the 3rd and 4th? Might as well just go to the 5th style and master that style.

I don't think Wong would let this pummeling happen again. I think he'll be ready next time. He'll have some dream sequence with a flashback to something Fei told him.

Oh Wong, you didn't use your special weapon. You should have used your special tea. With cyanide. Wong should have followed Xu Li and used poison.

I miss Po. Maybe he turns out to be the 5th master? Maybe he'll reiterate his warning to Wong.

If Wong started with the second style first than went to Fei, he'd probably still get owned. That is, if Fei's students weren't incompetent mules. :D

[Gitman]

Or it's just a boast.

Hmm... maybe that's it... He's not here to learn humility, he's here to learn a proper boast!

Fei's letter: "This kid knows a little about fighting, but his taunts need some work. Show him how to make his opponents fear his ridiculous boasts."

Ha! I like this idea.

In other news, I suspect that sometime in the future Wong will have to save Fang Lin's bacon. In her overconfidence, she'll probably tangle with an opponent out of her league, but by that time Wong will have mastered four of the five dragons' styles.

Also, I've had another idea knocking around in my head. What if Wong doesn't recreate his father's style, but creates his own unique style that's just as awesome, or moreso?

[Tev]

Also, I've had another idea knocking around in my head. What if Wong doesn't recreate his father's style, but creates his own unique style that's just as awesome, or moreso?Well if you think about it, that’s exactly what he’s trying to do. He can’t replicate his father’s style because his father isn’t around to teach it. What Wong learns from the remaining Dragons and how he applies it will be different than how his father did.

It’s like telling a kid his father was a great artist who painted an amazing picture using five colors of paint, but then the painting got destroyed in a fire and the building collapsed on his father. Then you send the kid to five different art schools to learn how to paint. After that you hand him the same five colors and tell him to paint the same picture his father did. He won’t be able to. He will, however, be able to paint a picture that was just as awesome.

[Ilmoran]

Also, I've had another idea knocking around in my head. What if Wong doesn't recreate his father's style, but creates his own unique style that's just as awesome, or moreso?

At first I read this and thought "Well yeah, it's gotta be more awesome than his father's, because his father agreed with disbanding the Five Dragons and, more or less, hiding/fading into obscurity, rather than confronting Xu Li. So Wong's style will have to be superior if he was willing to face, and able to defeat, Xu Li."

But then I got to thinking about the beginning of the story...

"Come sit, have tea, and listen to how I killed your master."

A few hundred pages later:

"Oh yes, I was supposed to tell you how I killed your master. Well, one day after I mastered the styles of the other four dragons, I invited Xu Li over for tea. Poisoned tea. By the way, have you enjoyed yours?"

:D

Unrelated note:
I was looking at the pages from the 10 year flash forward, specifically Wong beating up the bandits. I don't know if anyone noticed/pointed it out, but I just noticed Wong uses closed fist punches, while Fei's Five Mantis Fist uses a a two-fingered hooking "fist". So somewhere Wong picked up some new moves (I know, kinda late to be noticing it since he's at a new school now). Also noticing that his punch on the first bandit looks very reminicent of the first punch Fang Lin landed on him. So maybe he thinks he's "mastered" Tiger Knuckle, and is returning from his 100 mile hike (100 miles are as 1 blah blah blah) to take his final test :D

[Tev]

Xu Li: “Old man you’ve kept me here long enough! I do not have a hundred years to listen to this prattling tale of yours!”

Wong: “A hundred years are as one in the quest for knowledge. You have not yet learned the secret of my power, so I must teach you the hard way.” *Assumes a crazy martial arts stance* “Through my travels I learned to incorporate my masters’ teachings.”

Xu Li: “From what little of your stories I could tolerate you hardly spent more than a few years with the remnants of the Five Dragons. Not nearly long enough to master their arts and make them your own!”

Wong: “You’ve learning nothing! see HIKYM page 35 to a master of The Divine Fist of the Unconquerable Sky!”

[Gitman]

Unrelated note:
I was looking at the pages from the 10 year flash forward, specifically Wong beating up the bandits. I don't know if anyone noticed/pointed it out, but I just noticed Wong uses closed fist punches, while Fei's Five Mantis Fist uses a a two-fingered hooking "fist". So somewhere Wong picked up some new moves (I know, kinda late to be noticing it since he's at a new school now). Also noticing that his punch on the first bandit looks very reminicent of the first punch Fang Lin landed on him. So maybe he thinks he's "mastered" Tiger Knuckle, and is returning from his 100 mile hike (100 miles are as 1 blah blah blah) to take his final test :D

Maybe... but in page 46 you can see he still prefers the Five Mantis stance. By the way, anyone else notice Fang Lin has blue eyes? Isn't she Chinese? I assume Fang Yun is her mother, so does she have a Western father?

[MSperoni]

Isn't she Chinese? I assume Fang Yun is her mother, so does she have a Western father?

dun dun duuun?

[Tev]

Calling it now: Fang Yun is banging a Viking.

[Veho]

Either Wong learned the moves of the Mantis Fist style but not their practical application, or the styles of the Five Dragons are one huge game of rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock; each style defeats the previous one but can be defeated by the next one, and in order to become the true master you have to master them all.

Now, Fei could have sent him down the circle, to train a style the Mantis Fist can defeat and then move on, but he decided to send him up the circle, towards a style that mops the floor with what Wong has learned so far.

Why? Because Fei is an asshole.

[MSperoni]

Kind of a bit removed here from the Viking Age..

And who says Fang Yun is her mother? Maybe she is, maybe she ain't.

.. each style defeats the previous one but can be defeated by the next one, and in order to become the true master you have to master them all..

That's actually a kinda cool idea in my opinion. It'd fit into the concepts of BATTLE BEASTS, how Water beats Fire or Metal beats Wood, etc.

[Gitman]

And who says Fang Yun is her mother? Maybe she is, maybe she ain't.

True. It seems a reasonable assumption, given that they have the same surname, but I suppose she could be adopted, or it could be a coincidence.

[Link_991]

I'm having a tough time understanding what Student #5 is doing to him.

[Gitman]

I'm having a tough time understanding what Student #5 is doing to him.

Looks to me like she's got him in a choke-hold.

[Terrax]

Although it was kinda funny to see the kid be rather humiliated, I do hope we're going to see him have a rather substancial WIN at some point. So far, all we've seen him do is beat a few thugs - who later beat him right back.

This is not a complaint in any way, because I understand the point here. I just hope he can at least fight equally with the no.1 student now... and could seriously maim the other 5. ;)

[BigDemonicBunny]

I'm having a tough time understanding what Student #5 is doing to him.

She has immobilized him and is applying an airchoke.

With a combination of a leglock on his left arm and the positioning of her body she has removed his ability to strike back effectively. With her arms she's both removed his only possible counter at this point (headbutting her, that's why her left arm is positioned as it is, a combination of immobilizing his head and providing extra leverage for her right) and is also cutting off his air.

If Wong was either much heavier and stronger (if he was for example student no.4) or if his opponent was an inexperienced grappler he could have broken such a hold. As it is (with Wong being both the lighter opponent and Student #5 being an experienced grappler) he's fucked.

The only problem withthe HIKYM frame is that the sleeper hold is unusual and not the most effective. Usually the sleeper hold is inversed from that picture and the right arm is used to pin the opponents right arm and head (pulling Wongs arm upwards) while the left one is providing the choke. Or the right arm is used to pin his shoulder while the left is providing the choke.
But that's ok. You can't always get the best locks, you'll have to work with what you get from your initial grapple.

Also, it's an airchoke (which implies that the student is either not a superb grappler....or quite sadistic. I vote for the latter) and not a carotid choking technique (aka "sleeperhold") which would have been quicker and more effective (and not as agonizing for the victim since it's pretty much grapple and blackout in less than 20 seconds, without the choking sensation).

[Jagos]

Maybe she's left handed. ;)

[FionordeQuester]

Eh, I found this whole thing from page 51-52 to be absolutely ridiculous and unfair. I mean, yeah, I know that the point of this is to show our hero being humbled and stuff, but, if I'm not mistaken, he's pretty much fighting the students one after the other, without any sort of break.

Of course he's not going to be able to beat #4, #5, or even #6 when he's already gotten the ever lovin' hell beaten out of him like 3-5 different times in what seems like a relatively small time frame.

Trust me, I've done a six month karate program, with full contact and everything, with the instructors holding back very little of their power. There was a night I had to do something very much like what our hero is going through, except I fought only three opponents after another (2 of them were instructors, only one was around my skill level), WITH pads on.

We all were STILL sore even after a week of recovery time. Point being, I don't see how this proves anything about our hero being weak or inexperienced when he was asked to pretty much do the impossible....

[Krylo]

That's... kind of the point.

He came in being a cocky misogynistic brat to the female master of the school. She isn't teaching him humility.

She's punishing him.

The first fight, maybe even the second, MAY have been humility training. The rest was pure punishment.

Kind of like how Fei backhanding him wasn't training either.

[FionordeQuester]

Oh, ok. Well, at least he's taking pretty well. No complaints or anything as far as I see.

[Aldurin]

Oh, ok. Well, at least he's taking pretty well. No complaints or anything as far as I see.

I don't think he has time to complain between fights.

[FionordeQuester]

I don't think he has time to complain between fights.

I think he does, I mean, he seems to have at least recovered his breath from fight #1 to fight #2 (he has his mouth closed, doesn't seem to have problems breathing, doesn't even to be sweating, oddly enough).

[Jagos]

... Why would he have to sweat? He's getting his @$$ kicked. I would think he's learned to take a beating especially if his former master's training regimen is anything to go by.

[FionordeQuester]

Well because, he's exerting lots of energy striking, dodging, blocking, grappling, everything else one would do in a fight. Unless he's literally getting his butt kicked so blindingly fast that every fights only lasting like, 10 seconds, I would expect him to be sweating all over, especially when he's fighting under a fricken desert sun!

Of course, maybe I'm biased. I remember sweating a lot in Black Belt training no matter how often I got my butt kicked, but I was wearing sparring gear, including a helmet, so who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that was the gear making me sweat so much (although I seriously doubt it, especially considering that they're fighting in the fricken desert...)

[MSperoni]

it's also time consuming to draw him sweating profusely panel to panel and I'm lazy.

[FionordeQuester]

Well, I wasn't complaining actually, I was just responding to Jagos about why one would've been sweating so much at that point if this was real. It still baffles me why he would think it would've been illogical for him to have been o.0...

[MSperoni]

Well I think of him as being sweaty.. I dunno, maybe he wouldn't be, but it seems like he'd be.. tho the sun is setting and deserts get cold at night so maybe he's dried off by then. Y'got me! :p

[Krylo]

I figured the lack of sweat/signs of physical exertion just meant that every fight was over so quickly that he didn't have time to get tired out.

[FionordeQuester]

Oh, I see. That makes sense.

Either way, man am I feeling bad for him right now. If there's anything I've learned from my martial arts training, there's nothing in the world more miserable than getting your butt kicked by someone better than you, repeatedly, in full contact training, and for prolonged periods of time...and that was WITH pads on. Seriously, it's not something I was ever able to fully grasp till I tried it myself >_<...

[Veho]

he's pretty much fighting the students one after the other, without any sort of break

Yes.

He's claiming to be a master. A master would have no trouble fighting several people. Besides, they're training for real combat. You can't expect your enemies to attack you one by one, let alone give you a five minute breather between fights. Anyone calling himself a "master" should be able to fight a bunch of mere students, and anyone actually believing himself a master will only benefit by being proven horribly wrong in a brutal yet nonlethal fashion. i.e., being beaten. And the more miserable he feels right now, the deeper the lesson will sink in.

[FionordeQuester]

He's claiming to be a master. A master would have no trouble fighting several people. Besides, they're training for real combat. You can't expect your enemies to attack you one by one, let alone give you a five minute breather between fights. Anyone calling himself a "master" should be able to fight a bunch of mere students, and anyone actually believing himself a master will only benefit by being proven horribly wrong in a brutal yet nonlethal fashion. i.e., being beaten. And the more miserable he feels right now, the deeper the lesson will sink in.

Actually, they trained for that by doing exercises like the horse stance (it's basically a squat, except you spread your legs as far apart as you can while still being able to bend them at a 45 degree angle, and you have to hold it for an extremely long time) for hours at a time to develop lower body strength and cardio. Most armies back then were expected to fight for days AND spend the whole day just marching towards their destination, no breaks, so it took more than just fighting all the time to develop that kind of endurance. And I never doubted that it was something he probably needed, I'm just saying, it's a really painful process. I never doubted he deserved the punishment, I just didn't know it was intended as a punishment at first, so much as it was intended as something to humble him.

[bobfish]

I figured the lack of sweat/signs of physical exertion just meant that every fight was over so quickly that he didn't have time to get tired out.

Perfectly reasonable and setting appropriate explanation: He's dehydrated, even 5 miles in the desert will do that to you.

[Green Spanner]

I was wondering when we would see Chan complaining about the story again.

And in full colour no less!

[Aldurin]

I think Fie's letter said "And no matter how much I pummel this little turd, he still won't learn humility. Maybe your students can help."

[Gitman]

Heh. I get the feeling the authors are poking fun at some forum theories about the letter's contents.

[KillBill]

I liked seeing Chan and old Wong again... only complaints, took a minute to realize which of the 3 possible time periods that last panel was in (which is fine, since i'm sure the next page would've made it obvious anyway)... and whoever made the decision on which words to italicize might've overdone it in a couple places :P

[Kurosen]

Heh. I get the feeling the authors are poking fun at some forum theories about the letter's contents.
No. The page was written weeks before you guys knew there was a letter to theorize about.

[BattyAsHell]

He's claiming to be a master. A master would have no trouble fighting several people. Besides, they're training for real combat. You can't expect your enemies to attack you one by one, let alone give you a five minute breather between fights. Anyone calling himself a "master" should be able to fight a bunch of mere students, and anyone actually believing himself a master will only benefit by being proven horribly wrong in a brutal yet nonlethal fashion. i.e., being beaten. And the more miserable he feels right now, the deeper the lesson will sink in.

Actually, they trained for that by doing exercises like the horse stance (it's basically a squat, except you spread your legs as far apart as you can while still being able to bend them at a 45 degree angle, and you have to hold it for an extremely long time) for hours at a time to develop lower body strength and cardio. Most armies back then were expected to fight for days AND spend the whole day just marching towards their destination, no breaks, so it took more than just fighting all the time to develop that kind of endurance. And I never doubted that it was something he probably needed, I'm just saying, it's a really painful process. I never doubted he deserved the punishment, I just didn't know it was intended as a punishment at first, so much as it was intended as something to humble him.

Heh, that takes me back. And those horse stance sessions often came after my long distance running for track...

Even when fresh, a proper horse stance isn't easy to maintain for any length of time..

[Tree]

No. The page was written weeks before you guys knew there was a letter to theorize about.

Our dreams! You have crushed them!

http://ninitalk.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/dreams.jpg

[MSperoni]

crushed by a combination of Morpheus and Rumble.. Rumpheus.

[Arhra]

No. The page was written weeks before you guys knew there was a letter to theorize about.Our dreams! You have crushed them!

Oh, it's not like "Here is a boy. Punish him." is that hard to guess.

[Link_991]

Looks to me like she's got him in a choke-hold.

That's what I thought but then I noticed the leg going over his shoulder and got kinda confused as I tried to visualize how the rest of her body was positioned, I think I got it now

[Tree]

Oh, it's not like "Here is a boy. Punish him." is that hard to guess.

"This boy is arrogant and stupid. Teach him some humility, have him face your students and see how he does."

[ArtisticMystic]

Hope to see new pages soon. My PC was down again and it's been awhile since I've seen new HIKYM comics. The last page with old man Wong is very realistic. Also it's nice to read more dialogue.

[Kurosen]

Matt's gotta get off his lazy ass and finish up a project for me first.

Aaaaand I gotta get off my lazy ass and write more pages for him to draw.

[MSperoni]

Too many asses are lazy around here. That or there are too many lazy asses. Or both. Or all three.

[Krylo]

Well all ya'all get off your lazy asses.

I'm tired of a completely stagnant front page.

[ArtisticMystic]

Hey, guys do what ya gotta do...You DO have lives other than HIKYM...

[Aldurin]

Hey, guys do what ya gotta do...You DO have lives other than HIKYM...

Lies!!! All of it, lies!!!

[MSperoni]

Mystery Project is about halfway through, I'm hoping to have it all done at least by next weekend and THEN HIKYM will get back on track.

It's been a really long time since I've drawn the HIKYM style. Mystery Project is in a different style, and I had some commission work before that which caused me to have to change the way I do things too. I hope I can remember how to draw Wong and company!

[rpgdemon]

You could always stick to the new style you've adopted for the past few pages. :P

[MSperoni]

Y'mean... How I Didn't Kill Your Master style?

dun dun duuun



http://i44.tinypic.com/2ps16b6.jpg

[Green Spanner]

I don't care what anybody else says, that is canon.

[Kim]

HIDKYM needs to be a children's cartoon.

[MSperoni]

The last few pages have been pretty educational.

[rpgdemon]

The Trumanator made me crack up, I'm not gonna lie.

[Bard The 5th LW]

It is forever emblazoned in my mind.

On another note, I wasn't 100% sure emblazoned was a word until this post. HIKYM has taught me yet another thing.

[MSperoni]

This comic is the gift that keeps on giving.

[Neni]

I have to admit, I just started reading this comic today and only because I needed to find myself a reason to stay here after 8bit theater finished. I thought it might end up being too dark and unemotional for my taste (I need either humor or emotions, otherwise I can't really like a story), but I was, thankfully, wrong.

Little Wong is an adorable protagonist, whom I came to like within less than 5 pages, while he's also far from being purely positive (I hate too positive protagonists). And I actually squeed when I realized that 2 of the five dragons were female, because I feared this would be an all-man Kong Fu thing. Thankfully, Fang Lin appeared and I like her. I mean, we haven't seen a lot of her yet, but somehow I get the feeling that's she's going to exhibit Tsundere tendencies and I like Tsundere tendencies. (It doesn't have to be 100% Tsundere, the tendencies alone are enough.)

Above all, the witty dialouge, which I loved so much about 8bt is present here as well, and I think that alone could actually be enough to keep me interested. I like where this story is going and am eager to see more characters and generally how it developes.

Finally, Matt, your artwork is pure love. ^^ It combines the best traits of western comic and eastern comic in one. Keep going and never stop!:dance:

[MSperoni]

Thanks for the complements on the art :D

Originally only one of Five Dragons were female but that got changed to two :)


I'm hoping for more female characters down the road because I don't like all male-casts, but at the same time I don't like token females (either damsel types or types who are strong but never better than or equal to the males). It's nice to be working with a writer who isn't stuck in the archaic "boys are better than girls" frame of mind and thinks there are too many dicks on the dance floor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-EN8dpAvBw). I don't think I could stand working with someone who was one of those overly macho insecure types. It's unprofessional but I'd probably quit if the story got to that point, I have my ethics after all :)

Though 8-bit didn't really have a very good gender balance, which is one of the few things I found at fault with it, still, I guess for what it was it worked, and when there were women in it they were treated well. I didn't have any problems with it or anything I just wish it was a bit more balanced cast-wise.

I'm not an ultra feminist but I hate the way everything seems to be so..erm.. androcentric in comics and such.

I understand though in stories where there just aren't females for the sake of realism, for example if you're writing a story about Samurai Era Japan that's not a fantasy, you just aren't going to have female samurai. Or like in Atomic Robo when it's set in WW2 and all the infantry soldiers are male, that's just the way things were, you can't cry "sexism" at the writer for that, you can cry "sexism" at the society the writer is writing about, but don't blame the writer for reporting the truth.

But since HIKYM is a martial arts fantasy, there's no reason to conform to social rules or historical reality or anything.

[Neni]

I'm hoping for more female characters down the road because I don't like all male-casts, but at the same time I don't like token females (either damsel types or types who are strong but never better than or equal to the males). It's nice to be working with a writer who isn't stuck in the archaic "boys are better than girls" frame of mind and thinks there are too many dicks on the dance floor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-EN8dpAvBw). I don't think I could stand working with someone who was one of those overly macho insecure types. It's unprofessional but I'd probably quit if the story got to that point, I have my ethics after all :)

Though 8-bit didn't really have a very good gender balance, which is one of the few things I found at fault with it, still, I guess for what it was it worked, and when there were women in it they were treated well. I didn't have any problems with it or anything I just wish it was a bit more balanced cast-wise.

I'm not an ultra feminist but I hate the way everything seems to be so..erm.. androcentric in comics and such.

I understand though in stories where there just aren't females for the sake of realism, for example if you're writing a story about Samurai Era Japan that's not a fantasy, you just aren't going to have female samurai. Or like in Atomic Robo when it's set in WW2 and all the infantry soldiers are male, that's just the way things were, you can't cry "sexism" at the writer for that, you can cry "sexism" at the society the writer is writing about, but don't blame the writer for reporting the truth.

But since HIKYM is a martial arts fantasy, there's no reason to conform to social rules or historical reality or anything.


I really understand what you mean.

I think the problem with Gender Balance in 8bit Theater was that only a few of the sprites in Final Fantasy 1 actually can pass for female. To be exact, even White Mage should have technically been a guy, since the in-game class change makes it pretty obvious that FF1's White Mage was male. I'm just glad Brian decided to make White Mage female instead.

I noticed that he really knows how to correctly treat female characters. They never end up having "I'm a girl" or "I'm a tomboy" as their only defining characteristic, like certain other comic females. -.-;

I think that's also what I've also always liked about modern day Manga. It's rare to find a female without distinct personality in a good Manga nowadays (emphasis on "good").

I think the problem with the infamous Male/Female ratio are the following clichés:

No female characters: Your series is sexist.

One female character: You're sexist and making use of the Smurfette Principle.

There are fewer female characters than male characters: Your series is still sexist.

Half of the characters are female: It's painfully obvious that you are trying hard not to be sexist and are thus probably not really focusing on balanced character development.

More than half of the characters are female: You are certainly an evil feminist and the male characters only serve as comic relief.

Only one male character: The series is a girl's show akin to Sailor Moon and the Male is a wuss who will only be kidnapped.



Personally, I'm not against Distressed Damsels or Princesses or anything among those lines... but they NEED to have a distinct personality!

For example, Nintendo is the worst and best example at the same time. They have had both, strong Distressed Damsels and personality-deprived Distressed Damsels yet.

The different Princesses Zelda cover the whole spectrum, the most horrible being the Zelda of Oracle of X (She seriously did nothing but getting kidnapped and giving a speech) and the best executed being the Princess Zelda of The Wind Waker, aka. Tetra (Who saved the main character's life twice and had her own little "quest" going while he was on his, not to mention being the superior to 6 adult men despite being 12 years old), followed closely by her ancestor from Ocarina of Time, who, however, miraculously suffered from sudden reverse Character Growth upon putting on a dress. X-x

Curiously, Princess Peach apparently can't decided to which of these two fractions she belongs. Sometimes she's a female Solid Snake, then she hands out hints from time to time, then she does.... nothing but weep.
I suspect the writers aren't on the same wavelength here.


In the end, a female character can wear a pink dress and be giddy. There's nothing wrong with that. If those are, however, her only traits AT ALL, then she might not be there at all as well.

It is important not to avoid the stereotypes, but to ignore them, in my opinion. I write a female character like I'd write every other character. Exept female, with an a little more "female" personality and with a broader wardrobe choice.

[Kim]

Ocarina of Time is incredibly sexist, because the moment the audience stops thinking Sheik has a penis is the same moment she gets kidnapped.

The moments Tetra stops being a tomboy is the moment she gets kidnapped.

Midna was pretty cool though, if I remember correctly.

It is important not to avoid the stereotypes, but to ignore them, in my opinion. I write a female character like I'd write every other character. Exept female, with an a little more "female" personality and with a broader wardrobe choice.

The main female character in my story, assuming I ever actually get the damn thing going, will probably take a baseball bat to some demons, and is the main character of the second book. Muahahaha.

[MSperoni]

I generally hate Princess Peach and Zelda (correction, I generally hate Zelda, I always hate Peach). I remember Zelda was cool in Windwaker until you realized she was Zelda and then she kinda sucked again.

Sounds like your main character in your book is pretty cool, NonCon! I am intrigued... :)

One thing I notice is that female characters are sometimes treated merely as men in women's bodies. Feminine psychology is another character trait that I think makes the character more interesting and dynamic. Then again I think that'd be something hard to do unless you were a really good character writer.. I think a lot of the time characters of a race/gender opposite of the writer's have a tendency to fall back on conventions/cliches/stereotypes.

Like for example Balrog in SF2. Somehow I doubt any of the Japanese people writing his character in a SF2 manga or anime have any clue what it's like being a inner-city black guy from America (or care to have any clue) so they default to "aggressive thug" or "outwardly aggressive thug with a heart of gold".. Etc. Why I just used Balrog I have no idea... :P

But going back to females, Dragon Age did a very good job with its female cast I think. I really liked Leliana. She was an ass kicking bard assassin type, but when you talked to her she still had the charm, sensitivity and social grace generally associated with females. Morrigan was like that too (only less about the sensitivity and grace and more about the cynical, loveable smartass :D) . They were really rounded characters and they "felt" female (if that makes sense).

I never really got that kinda character impression with any of the FFs I played.. Seemed to me that most of the female and male characters could just be changed around gender wise and it wouldn't matter. Aside from like one or two stereotypical qualities (Aeris wears pink and likes flowers! XDXDXDXD ) they didn't have much realistic going for them.

[Neni]

The moments Tetra stops being a tomboy is the moment she gets kidnapped.



Not entirely true. She was shocked. I mean, who wouldn't be shocked if the ghost of their grand-grand-grand-grand-[ect.]-father appeared before them and told them "You are the descendant of the royal family of a magical kingdom and you hold the power of a goddess."

Notice how she's suddenly back to tomboy once you fight Ganondorf, regardless of the dress. She taunts him, calls him "mad, laughing maniac"(with a smile on her face, you mind) and gives Link back his sword when Ganondorf (once again) got him down. Not to mention that it's her who essentially deals most of the damage. Link just distracts Big G and does the finishing blow.

There's no excuse for her role in Phantom Hourglass though. She wears a freakin' cutlass on her all the time, but fails to do anything awesome on-screen. (it's hinted that she fought one of the Boss Monsters before she got petrified, but do we get to see that? NO!! Also, she apparently lost to it. She, the girl who took on Ganondorf for a few minutes, losing to your regular Dungeon Boss. Ouch.)

I agree. Midna is awesome. The game, however, sadly "balances" Midna's awesome out with one of the worst Princess Zelda incarnations in years. Despite wielding a sword, she barely does anything. Her only real action is transfering her soul to a certain other character, rendering her helpless for yet another half of the game. JESUS, lady, stop being so stereotypical!! X-x

I can't hate Peach because of Nostalgia, and because of the, really underrated, Mario RPGs, where she has a much better personality than in the other games. She does investigations, acts quite clever and knowingly exploits the stereotype of "She's just a naive little Princess" to get information for Mario he would never get otherwise. Also, it was quite cool how she suddenly wound up being the final boss in one of those. I would have never thought that I would ever be beating up Princess Peach outside of the Smash Brothers series. :-D

One thing I notice is that female characters are sometimes treated merely as men in women's bodies. Feminine psychology is another character trait that I think makes the character more interesting and dynamic. Then again I think that'd be something hard to do unless you were a really good character writer.. I think a lot of the time characters of a race/gender opposite of the writer's have a tendency to fall back on conventions/cliches/stereotypes.

Exactly. It's hard to get into the opposite gender's mind, and since most writers are, for some reason, male, we very rarely get well-done female characters. More collaborational works could change that...

A female character should be, well, female. But she also shouldn't be a collection of stereotypes.

Well done females I can think of... uhm, the females in Neon Genesis Evangelion... and also Ghost in the Shell, of course...

...Surprisingly, Elizabeth in the Pirates of the Caribean movies (might have something to do with the actress having input in the character's developement)

The lead characters of "Michiko to Hatchin" (it's a very obscure Anime, but basically it's an outlaw woman and a very determined girl traveling through Brazil, in search for the girl's father... on a Motorcycle).
...Which is a surprise, because Michiko is actually a real Fanservice bait. Despite this, she still manages to have a lot more focus on her character development than on her breasts.

...Actually, I can think of many well done females, but they are mostly from very modern works. Seems like things are getting better.

I think that's what I liked so much about White Mage. She was sensible and nice, like a female White Mage should be, but she knew how to take action, thought for herself and wound up being the most sucessful character in the whole comic.

And Evil Princess Sara was... just a wonderful idea. XD

[MSperoni]

That last little bit in Windwaker where Zelda "Helps" you didn't really seem to do much for me in terms of getting her back to a character I liked. I guess it's better than nothing, but at best she did a minimal job as generic "support/distraction". It felt patronizing and gimmicky to me. Like they were saying "Okay quit whining, girls, we'll have her do something... Of course it's a trivial something and Link does all the main work, but hey she's doing something, right? That's what you want, right?" >_< urrgh..

Evangelion, dunno, I guess overall I felt that series was too emo and obnoxious and all the characters were whiny dweebs so I never paid enough attention to the 'em long enough to do any kind of analysis. Rei didn't seem to have any personality and Asuka was just loud and annoying. The girliest character in that series seemed to be Shinji.

You might need a more anime expert like NonCon to talk Eva with you, I'm useless when it comes to anime and manga discussion, and almost useless when it comes to jRPG talk.. I don't watch a lot of anime cos I kinda dislike most all of it, and I don't much care for most manga either, and the same goes with jRPGs :sweatdrop: At best I can just give superficial analysis..

ED: Of course if you're someone who does like anime/manga/and jRPGs that's fine w/ me ^_^. I'm not going to be all "they're stupid and liking them makes you dumb and ugly" (at least not to your face).

[Neni]

That last little bit in Windwaker where Zelda "Helps" you didn't really seem to do much for me in terms of getting her back to a character I liked. I guess it's better than nothing, but at best she did a minimal job as generic "support/distraction". It felt patronizing and gimmicky to me. Like they were saying "Okay quit whining, girls, we'll have her do something... Of course it's a trivial something and Link does all the main work, but hey she's doing something, right? That's what you want, right?" >_< urrgh..

Well, I still think she was a good character and take on the regular Princess Zelda, but I wish they hadn't stuck her in the castle for the second half of the game... She's an accomplished warrior, so handing her Link's spare sword and having her tag along would have made more sense. But I guess Nintendo can't have woman supporting Link in regular battles, unless they are stuck in enchanted armors or cursed into an impish form. -_-;

Evangelion, dunno, I guess overall I felt that series was too emo and obnoxious and all the characters were whiny dweebs so I never paid enough attention to the 'em long enough to do any kind of analysis. Rei didn't seem to have any personality and Asuka was just loud and annoying. The girliest character in that series seemed to be Shinji.

I am not a TOO big fan of it myself, but I like the creativity put into it. Also, Rei and Asuka just had so many other traits attracting the attention that they had neither a reason, nor time to be the kind of anime character I loath... The girl who does nothing except smile, write good grades and make lots and lots of Bento(Lunchboxes). This character is, thankfully, a dying breed nowadays. Also, Rei inspired Yuki Nagato, who is one of my favorite Novel characters ever (note that Haruhi Suzumiya is actually a Novel series, the Anime is an adaption.), because she is practically a robot on the surface, but has a very complex personality underneath. So complex, in fact, that she herself fails to understand her emotions...

...Ah, I'm sliding off into unnecessary ranting.

You might need a more anime expert like NonCon to talk Eva with you, I'm useless when it comes to anime and manga discussion, and almost useless when it comes to jRPG talk.. I don't watch a lot of anime cos I kinda dislike most all of it, and I don't much care for most manga either, and the same goes with jRPGs :sweatdrop: At best I can just give superficial analysis..

I never exspected you to say anything about them, because I already kinda knew you weren't into this kind of series. I just listed examples I could think of and those were just the first which came to my mind. I just tend to elaborate too much onto every single detail I mention, because I always want to avoid missunderstandings. Of course, this almost never works. XP

People have different tastes and like different things, and this is good. Otherwise, we would have no healthy exchange between styles and Genres. For example, would you believe that Japanese art influenced European Impressionism, which influenced many American artstyles, which finally influences modern day Japanese Art (among it Manga) again?

Every creative style in every Medium or Genre which ever existed ended up indirectly influencing pretty much everything else to an extend. I personally dislike American Super Hero comics, but who knows how many series I love would have never existed without those?

I am glad that there is so much diversity in the world. Without diversity, progress would be horribly limited. Take the best from everywhere I say.


I know Anime has gained a bad reputation and I can see why. It's half because of a large group of idiot fans and half because of... well, there are just enough badly made Anime out there. Or Anime which used to be good but fell victim to the Cash Cow syndrome. Yeah, I'm looking at you, PrettyCure-franchise. (It used to be cute and unique, really...)

As for Manga, from my experience, there's a 50:50 ratio between good works and bad works. Whenever I start a new Manga series, I inform myself by searching for reviews first, otherwise it's too risky for me.

And J-RPGs are simply a matter of taste. People who dislike playing a game for the story or leveling only should never play one. Everyone else could be fine, given they find a J-RPG with a story which appeals to them.

[MSperoni]

... would you believe that Japanese art influenced European Impressionism, which influenced many American artstyles, which finally influences modern day Japanese Art (among it Manga) again?
.

Since I was an art student for five years (not a very good one though since I skipped class a lot and never really payed attention when I went :P ) and have been studying and doing this stuff most all my life, yes :)

I mean, I kinda got the impression art was influenced by other stuff.. It seemed logical to me at least.. I was generally doodling most of the time in Art History Class :D

[Neni]

Since I was an art student for five years (not a very good one though since I skipped class a lot and never really payed attention when I went :P ) and have been studying and doing this stuff most all my life, yes :)

I mean, I kinda got the impression art was influenced by other stuff..


Ah, sorry, I didn't want to sound like a know-it-all... I didn't mean to sound like I thought you didn't know, I just wanted to express that I found it amazing. ^^;

I was generally doodling most of the time in Art History Class

Yeah... sitting at a good desk with Paper and Pencil in front of oneself can be very tempting... ^^
I can't remember the last time I didn't doodle in class...

[MSperoni]

Preview time! This is a section of a panel on an upcoming page :dance:


http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/159/8/0/Fang_Lin__HIKYM_Preview_by_ExMile.jpg

[Kim]

It just occurred to me that her outfit reminds me of Ken in Street Fighter.

[MSperoni]

But at least Ken didn't wear skin-tight pants :)

[Kim]

But at least Ken didn't wear skin-tight pants :)

Damn!

[Veho]

Boobs :eek:

I mean, yeah, she had boobs before, obviously, but they're really quite... prominent in that panel. :3:

[Neni]

Preview time! This is a section of a panel on an upcoming page :dance:


This is just the kind of pose which says. "I have boobs AND am capable, so you'd better take me for full regardless of the former fact."

[Green Spanner]

I can only imagine the fun you had drawing that panel.

[Aldurin]

She's obviously gonna seduce Wong so she can kidnap him and turn him in for a bounty large enough for her to retire and start her own noodle restaurant.

[MSperoni]

It must be the red... Fang Lin's just kinda standing there, I dunno what would happen if I were actually trying to draw her in a sexy pose :P

[Green Spanner]

It must be the red... Fang Lin's just kinda standing there, I dunno what would happen if I were actually trying to draw her in a sexy pose :P

I think your head would explode.

[Solid Snake]

It must be the red... Fang Lin's just kinda standing there, I dunno what would happen if I were actually trying to draw her in a sexy pose :P

Matt Speroni!!!! There is only one way to find out!!!!

[MSperoni]

Sorry, no no to that kinda stuff w/ Fang Lin :) Maybe another character down the road but I wouldn't hold your breath on it :P

[Veho]

I wouldn't hold your breath on it :P

There's something subtly weird with that sentence, I'm sure of it.

[MSperoni]

"if I were you" is implied.

[Solid Snake]

Sorry, no no to that kinda stuff w/ Fang Lin :) Maybe another character down the road but I wouldn't hold your breath on it :P

The tears I shed, Mr. Speroni
The tears I shed

[FionordeQuester]

One thing I notice is that female characters are sometimes treated merely as men in women's bodies. Feminine psychology is another character trait that I think makes the character more interesting and dynamic. Then again I think that'd be something hard to do unless you were a really good character writer.. I think a lot of the time characters of a race/gender opposite of the writer's have a tendency to fall back on conventions/cliches/stereotypes.

Really? Well, I'm a male, and I'm trying to write a story with female characters in it. Any advice you could give me, or anything you want to point out before I do so? I don't know what it's like being a girl.

[MSperoni]

Well, having a few friends who are girls help you is good I think (especially useful if they're writers themselves).

I guess failing that, just get out there and meet some girls, take note of their behavior, avoid stereotypical cliches when possible, throw out any possible feelings of "male superiority" (if you have any, I think a sense of gender-inequality is a bad thing when it comes to writing people of the opposite gender.. both for male and female writers), and think :P

Then again the answer to this might be best answered by Brian, not me. That's just my opinion on it, I'm no writing instructor :)

[FionordeQuester]

Sounds good. My take on whether or not it's ok for a girl to fall into a cliche is that if a girl is cliched, that's alright as long as it's explained why she's that way, and as long as not every girl acts that way to.

What do you think?

[MSperoni]

I guess it depends on the kind of story, some things work where other things don't.


Personally I think that minor/throwaway characters are okay to be stereotypical and cliche at times, in real-life most people you see generally fall into a stereotype because they're easier to know that way and that's all you need to know about them. There's no reason to get into deep psychological complexities with every little character, or even give them names, just like how in real life you don't go up to every person you see and ask "what's your name? What's your backstory? What do you believe in? Why do you behave how you do?"

"That group of cheerleaders" or "that group of roughnecks" or "those hard-boiled marines" ... Good enough for me. In fact I think having a group be a thin stereotype can be beneficial because if your main character "steps away" from that stereotypical group it gives them a dynamic and makes them unique. Also it means that they're courageous enough to take a stand against the group mentality.

But main characters and secondary characters shouldn't be stereotypical, unless you're going for something like that for satirical purposes. Even if they're outwardly stereotypical they should have some kinda inner conflict or complexity. There should be a kind of character layering there.. I don't think anyone really sees themselves as a stereotype, or wants to be a stereotype, so if the main character is acting that way I think they need to have some personal reason to justify doing so. If your main character is a stereotype simply for the sake of being a stereotype I think you should probably ask yourself "Why is this my main character?"

[FionordeQuester]

I see. Thanks. I don't intend to ever make my characters purposely stereotypical.

[MSperoni]

well that was just my opinion on it ... SINCE NO OTHER WRITER HERE CARES TO GIVE ANY ADVICE >_<

Leave it up to the artist....sheesh laaaaaaazyyyyyyyy

[Green Spanner]

well that was just my opinion on it ... SINCE NO OTHER WRITER HERE CARES TO GIVE ANY ADVICE >_<

Leave it up to the artist....sheesh laaaaaaazyyyyyyyy

Don't blame me! I'm still at the stage where calling myself a writer with a straight face would be arrogant jumping the gun.

[MSperoni]

Hey, if you write you're a writer, right? That's what I think :)

[FionordeQuester]

Don't blame me! I'm still at the stage where calling myself a writer with a straight face would be arrogant jumping the gun.

How? If you write stuff that's not required because you like it, you're a writer. It's calling yourself a good writer that would be arrogant jumping the gun.

[Green Spanner]

Hey, if you write you're a writer, right? That's what I think :)

Meh. I personally think there is more to it than just scribbling something down and claiming you're a writer.

Probably just me.

Definitely just me.

[FionordeQuester]

Meh. I personally think there is more to it than just scribbling something down and claiming you're a writer.

There is. You have to do it because you like it, not because you have to write a school paper or something.

[ArtisticMystic]

That's true, and it's great to be an intellectualized writer but it's more compelling when one can put a large dose of passion into it as well. Like Frank Miller-he can write only a sentence and it will be jam packed with so much poetic meaning that it's astounding. Peter Waid, the writer for D.C.'s Kingdom Come once said authors should write from the heart...

[MSperoni]

y'mean Mark Waid :D


I'm not too keen on Frank Miller though. I like a couple of his things but that's about it.

ED: Actually I just realized one of his things I kinda liked was this four part Wolverine mini-series but now that I think of it I'm pretty sure Chris Claremont wrote that and Frank Miller drew it (though how much input he had on the story I dunno, writers like to hog the credit sometimes!)... I like Dark Knight Returns at least, but that's it..

[ArtisticMystic]

Yes, Mark Waid...my mistake. :)

DKR is my favorite of all Miller's stories. I also like "Year One" and "Sin City: The Hard Goodbye"

The work Chris Claremont did with the X-Men was brilliant. I think his writing style went best with artists John Byrne "The Dark Phoenix Saga" (Byrne is an author as well so he probably helped to plot TDPS along with Claremont) and Jim Lee.

[PipBoy]

well that was just my opinion on it ... SINCE NO OTHER WRITER HERE CARES TO GIVE ANY ADVICE >_<
Not the writer you were referring to, but I'll give it a shot anyway.
in real-life most people you see generally fall into a stereotype because they're easier to know that way and that's all you need to know about them.


Exactly.

People are expected to take on various roles throughout life and most behavior can be neatly filed under one stereotype or another-- For example, "the grieving widow" isn't a common stereotype, per se, but I bet that once I said it an image popped into your head. That's because stereotypes have staying power due to being self-fulfilling prophecies. A girl who is trying out for cheer leading will try to act upbeat and gregarious because that is what she expects from cheer leaders-- in this case it's right in the job description.

As such, there's no shame in a minor character acting like a stereotypical cheerleader if that character never appears in any other context but performing at the big game. It is only when the context changes and that role is no longer appropriate that the character becomes in danger of being exposed as one dimensional, and it can be very jarring when it happens.

I find that it really pays to be aware of stereotypes and to not to be afraid of them, since they're immediately familiar to the reader and help them get their bearings. The trick is to give any recurring characters an arsenal of various "roles" they play depending on the context and to make sure that any persona they use doesn't contradict what you have already established. Well, unless you want them to seem like a crazy person, which can be fun. ;)

[Green Spanner]

Man, it's almost as if they like each other.

Also, Wong stuffing his face while Fang provides exposition seems...right somehow...

[Amake]

ED: Actually I just realized one of his things I kinda liked was this four part Wolverine mini-series but now that I think of it I'm pretty sure Chris Claremont wrote that and Frank Miller drew it (though how much input he had on the story I dunno, writers like to hog the credit sometimes!)
Oh (http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/immortalpictures/sniktjapan2.jpg) yes (http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/immortalpictures/sniktjapan3.jpg). I like that one. Apparently they wrote it together, but it seems like 90% Miller. It's funny cause the comic completely deconstructs Wolvie by having an old man take him apart with a wooden sword.

It's just so rare to see short, dark an' intersting get owned. :)

Now what was the topic? Writing women characters. My advice is a generic, remember that girls are just like people. I find it easiest to write from a perspective past genders and then strap on boobs as needed on the characters. Some very interesting stories are narrated by a protagonist who doesn't give away their gender.

Of course a large amount of my characters are bisexual hedonist hippies. But the point is gender shouldn't be the key aspect of a character. Unless it's a character who defines themselves principally by their gender. Which I guess a lot of people do. Oh well.

By the way I like the comic. Not sure if I've said that. It's interesting how deeply considered every aspect of it appears to be. Like Alan Moore, you guys seem to take into account everything in the world in writing and drawing the story.

"There is no such thing as bad research, because an author should already know every single thing in the entire universe before making anything."

[MSperoni]

My advice is a generic, remember that girls are just like people. I find it easiest to write from a perspective past genders and then strap on boobs as needed on the characters.

Girls are people but female people, and so I don't think they should be treated as if that doesn't matter. Unless the story doesn't call for realistic characters or you are trying to make characters that are somehow immune to social programming (like if your character is a serial killer or has a mental illness of another kind). Otherwise the psychology and behavior of your characters becomes a kind of "homogenized lump" and everyone's only as deep as their quirks. Also being oblivious to gender and social behaviors means that your characters will never have a desire to challenge them because to them they're meaningless. The character's behavior is no longer unique because there is no grain for them to go against.

I think the basic differences between male and female is similar to a basic difference between people from two different countries (or two different parts of a single country). Your average person from Boston is going to have a slightly different way of thinking than your average person from deep Southern Alabama. Also the average American is going to have a different set of values than your average person from Cambodia, etc. Imagine a story with a Hispanic man from a poor, liberal country meeting and falling in love with an Asian woman from a conservative, wealthy country. That kind of thing could possibly create some interesting drama, culture/parental clash, etc.

Of course, I'm not saying these things have to be rigidly enforced in life or in stories, and I think in a lot of cases people from varying genders and societies just get along just fine as if there's no big whoop about it. But I still think deep down these kinds of things have an influence, and it makes a story all the more interesting if they're explored (in my opinion).


I think it's shallow characterization if every character operates under the same behavioral "rules". I also think it's a bad idea to have a kind of even-keel world void of social, gender and cultural structures because those kinds of things set up a status-quo and I enjoy characters who occasionally break it (and you have to have rules before you can break them :D). However I don't like spastic characters who rebel only for the sake of rebellion. Doing that kind of "unmotivated non-conformity" seems to me to be the equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum. Also then they fall into the stereotype of the non-conformist, I'm sure we all know the type :) ... I always like characters who break the status-quo to have a kind of good reason for doing so (like it's important to the plot, or serves as a foil to another character). I think Kikuchiyo from Seven Samurai is a good example of this, he acts wild and flamboyant but this is because he is overcompensating. He has no real identity, he's stuck between the social castes of samurai and farmer. He seems to me to represent in a way post-war Japan, kind of lost and stuck between two cultures (but I digress :P). On the other hand you have Kambei, who is in every way the samurai a samurai is "supposed to be". Were he not "perfect", Kikuchiyo wouldn't seem "flawed" (or vice versa depending on your interpretation! :D )

I guess this might over-complicate things but I think it should always be at least lightly considered. Also these kinds of rules are always flexible in the cases of fantasies (for example HIKYM doesn't follow the exact social rules of Ancient China, if it did Fang Lin wouldn't be how she is). However in that case I think you just need to make some writery adjustments.


Unless it's a character who defines themselves principally by their gender. Which I guess a lot of people do. Oh well.


Well I don't think there's anything wrong with someone defining themselves by their gender.. Even behaving against the "rule" is still taking the rule into account (for example if girls are supposed to have long hair and a girl cuts her hair short in defiance that can only happen if a rule is in place to begin with). It seems natural. I mean, you use the name "Invisible Queen" instead of "Invisible King" for example ^_^

[Amake]

"Queen" can mean many things. :3

But yeah, I was just offering one approach, I don't think it'd be useful if applied to all characters.

[ArtisticMystic]

Love the comment about how Yan Yu is old as dirt! Priceless!!!

[KillBill]

Teenage Mutant Ninja... uh, Humans? Is what I thought when I saw the "building" hopping :P
(Not poking fun though, looks good!)

[ArtisticMystic]

That's funny how Meng Qi tells Wen Yuan he has no authority beyond the tip of a spear and Wen responding with "Good thing I've got 5,000 of them." And Liu Wong adding the comment "Well, it is a good point."

[Green Spanner]

Bwoashit politics!

And nice lighting.

[MSperoni]

I've got the comic done up till page 60. So hopefully soon there will be another page posted! I thought there woulda been by now, but our fearless letterer got sidetracked, Brian got swarmed with Marvel and travel gigs, and I got a computer virus (again!). One would think with these kinds of odds stacked against HIKYM, it'd sap our morale and make us think about giving up, but oh no! Not us, we are tenacious. Tenacious as rottweilers. Well, I am. Brian's more like a miniature-schnauzer..You may think that's an insult, but we used to have one and they're plucky little assholes, f'sho!

[Rejected Again]

[.....]Brian got swarmed with Marvel and travel gigs, and I got a computer virus (again!).[.....]

So your saying you watch too much furry porn. Noted.

[Veho]

So your saying you watch too much furry porn. Noted.

Or maybe it was precisely the right amount of furry porn. Or maybe not enough at all, because he was interrupted by the virus.

The furry porn part is a given.

[MSperoni]

I was actually trying to cross-reference a quote by Anton Chekhov... I kinda wish it WAS furry porn or something porn related.. cos at least then I think I would have felt I had it coming.

[Pip Boy]

I feel for you man, yesterday I started a bad torrent and my entire system got instantly destroyed by a virus. I was going to have to reformat.

Then I pressed "Restore system to settings at: 8:00 AM this morning"

Then it was fixed. I laugh at you.

[Green Spanner]

Great, now I have to keep track of names and motivations.

THANKS A LOT.

[rpgdemon]

Er, did they mention the seal beforehand? I feel like I'm missing something.

I mean, I get why they want it from context, but I feel as if it was never actually established that the three warring factions were looking for the governor's seal.

[MSperoni]

yeah, now that you mention it there seems like there's a dialog balloon missing somewhere in there....

ED: more specifically, page 55. I'm looking at the script and there's a big chunk of dialog missing in panel 5 :P Fang Lin talks about the seal there....

"What they lack in numbers they make up for with cunning. They've harried General Wen's sympathizers for years. Their support's been growing stronger by the day ever since they got word out that the governor's seal is missing"


OOPS! (hey, letterin' ain't my job)

[Meister]

plot holes in a kung fu story

[rpgdemon]

Good to know that I'm not completely insane, stupid, or both.

Well, at least this time.

[Kurosen]

Goddammit. Jeff was moving the week he did that page.

[Loyal]

Oh dear.

Wong, just drop it and walk away.

[Odjn]

Wait Brian uploaded a comic?!?!?!?!

[rpgdemon]

Mind posting the transcript, at least, so that we can know what was supposed to have been said?

[MSperoni]

I wrote what she was supposed to have said already :)

Just go back to my first reply about it, I edited the message and put what she said in it.

[Melfice]

So, to cut off both Brian and Matt bringing up this point.

This is totally like in Romance of the Three Kingdoms (the actual books. Not the games.), where Sun Jian finds one of the Imperial Seals in a well.

Is Wong going to form his own kingdom in China now? (Or at least set up the machinations of a kingdom so his son(s) can take over.)

[Pip Boy]

Just the typical, unrealistic, well timed "Fuck you" of fatal irony that we have come to expect from Brian's stuff. I'm enjoying the new series very much.

[Kurosen]

Is Wong going to form his own kingdom in China now? (Or at least set up the machinations of a kingdom so his son(s) can take over.)
Nothing so grand. It's just a seal for a local office.

[The Wandering God]

One can't wait to heaaar the story of why the seal would be in ah well.

Also, it is indeed pleasing to have fresh content of the martial arts variety.

[Meister]

One can't wait to heaaar the story of why the seal would be in ah well.
They do spend most of their time in water in the wild.

[The Wandering God]

They do spend most of their time in water in the wild. (http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true)
Sir, I have corrected an oversight on your part.