The Princess and the Frog

[PCD]

There's been a lot of talk about Disney's new movie, what with it being the first delve back into 2D and Princess-formula in years, Enchanted notwithstanding.

Though there's been a lot of drama about being racist with black characters, not to mention the feminist rage over the whole princess archetype, I thought that this movie was very enjoyable. People are going to find problems with it, as they always do, but I overall thought it was well played. They did a pretty good job of countering the expected stereotypes and unfortunate implications, overall making a movie with a lot of nice messages.

The movie itself was a lot of fun. There were characters I expected to be annoying that turned out endearing, such as Ray and Christine, and Dr. Facilier was a brilliant villain, though there wasn't nearly enough of him. The songs in the movie were catchy and fun, though not as brilliant as some of Disney's past work.

Overall, I recommend it for anyone who's curious.

[Seil]

Two words: Doctor Facilier. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgz1l-k-FG0)

You know what else is two words? Keith motherfuckin' David. That's what.

[Aerozord]

actually looks good, though I'll wait for the inevitable TV release, no money for movies

[Kim]

I really want to watch this, but my local theater sucks and doesn't have it. I'll probably have no choice but to wait for the DVD release.

[Magus]

Wasn't this supposed to overturn years of racial prejudice and bring us into a new age of enlightened peace and harmony? Possibly by traveling back in time and retroactively erasing slavery and segregation from existence through a wormhole?

Having "nice messages" just doesn't cut it with the massive amount of news coverage this movie received. Disney has failed again at unilaterally altering our national conscious through space/time.

[Tev]

I went and saw it over the weekend with my girlfriend. It was quite enjoyable though I wish the main villain had more screen time. I had feared that Disney had forgotten how to make fun animated movies and it was good to see I was wrong.

As far as the characters go I was impressed with almost the whole cast. Even the Cajun Firefly who I was sure was going to be stupid comic relief actually turned out to be one of the most endearing characters of the movie.

The songs were not as strong as other Disney classics but even now I still have the Shadow Man's "I've got friends on the other side" stuck in my head.

[Premmy]

Sounds like something I'd want to see. They got Keith David, so it's gotta be awesome.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but no matter how good the actual movie is, I can't help but think the entire thing came out of some corporate suit's attempt at "equality" by making a black princess.

That said, I'll probably end up seeing it.

[Premmy]

*sigh*
Frogs->swamps->Louisiana->Voodoo(*eyeroll*)->brown people.
Seriously.

[Kim]

*sigh*
Frogs->swamps->Louisiana->Voodoo(*eyeroll*)->brown people.
Seriously.

I don't know if the plot was going to be the same as it is now, but I originally heard that one of the lead characters was going to be white, and that became a big deal about how white guys/girls apparently weren't good enough. I'm not saying that there isn't necessarily racism in this show, but I haven't seen it, and I'm going to wager you haven't seen it, so judging it based on what little you do know of it seems a bit unfair. I'm going to give it them the benefit of the doubt and say that the African-European characters are that way because they're trying to make up for not having black characters in their shows beforehand, and not because Voodoo=Black People.

In fact, the thought process, though this is still a fairly racist train of thought on their part, was probably more something like this: Black People -> Louisiana -> Voodoo -> PROFIT.

[Jagos]

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but no matter how good the actual movie is, I can't help but think the entire thing came out of some corporate suit's attempt at "equality" by making a black princess.

That said, I'll probably end up seeing it.

Wasn't that Aladdin? Or the Hunchback of Notre Dame?

[Premmy]

don't know if the plot was going to be the same as it is now, but I originally heard that one of the lead characters was going to be white, and that became a big deal about how white guys/girls apparently weren't good enough. I'm not saying that there isn't necessarily racism in this show, but I haven't seen it, and I'm going to wager you haven't seen it, so judging it based on what little you do know of it seems a bit unfair. I'm going to give it them the benefit of the doubt and say that the African-European characters are that way because they're trying to make up for not having black characters in their shows beforehand, and not because Voodoo=Black People.

In fact, the thought process, though this is still a fairly racist train of thought on their part, was probably more something like this: Black People -> Louisiana -> Voodoo -> PROFIT.I was responding to Bookworm's [Phil Ken Sebben]"Ahaaaaa.....tokenism"[/Phil Ken Sebben] line by explaining there's a fully justified reason for everyone to be black in this particular story because it'd look damn weird, or damn... damning to have it be all about the white folks with a Hollywood Voodoo centered story, set in jazz-era Louisiana. Let's just be happy Disney's back to what works and what everyone loves instead of getting into this particular debate at this time.
Wasn't that Aladdin? Or the Hunchback of Notre Dame?
Or Pocahontas?or Mulan? Or Atlantis(kinda)?
Seriously, brown people can't be in anything wthout it being a "PC" thing? we can't just make sense in the damn story?

[Kim]

Seriously, brown people can't be in anything wthout it being a "PC" thing? we can't just make sense in the damn story?

Okay, I misinterpreted what you said. I apologize. I thought you were saying it was racist, and while I didn't think so, I acknowledged the possibility because I know if it came down to a debate, you'd probably be right, and win. But yeah, I actually always thought about it as a story thing, and didn't really give much thought to the whole race thing until other people started saying it was racist/PC/all three in that order.

[PCD]

I know that originally the prince was going to be white, which brought up the drama that "are you saying that a black girl has to marry a white man to be worth anything?!" But if they made him black, people would go "what, do you have something against interracial couples?!" (never mind aforementioned movies that do in fact have interracial couples.) So, they made him Ambiguously Brown. People still have problems with this.

I like the movie much better if you don't focus on the politics everyone had on it, especially since Disney worked so hard to counter all the drama. So to refocus:

Man, I was surprised that all the characters were so likable. Particularly Ray and Charlotte, who at a glance seem like they would be extremely annoying and stereotypical characters, are both highly entertaining and sweet. None of the characters made me go "okay this is annoying and cliche why did they put this guy in," which usually happens at some point or another in cartoons.

[Premmy]

Even the firefly? cause that fucker pissed me off just looking at the trailer. Like, to Ninja Ninja in Afro Samurai purportions

[Tev]

Even the firefly? cause that fucker pissed me off just looking at the trailer. Like, to Ninja Ninja in Afro Samurai purportions
I promise you that if you go see this movie that firefly will be about the best thing that ever happened to you. I went in expecting him to be shitty comic relief and my world was upended right there on the screen.

[PCD]

The firefly especially. I'm pretty sure everyone I've spoken with expected him to be an irritating stereotype of comic relief character, but he's regarded by many as being the most lovable and sweet. It really throws you off. He's also voiced by Winnie the Pooh, you know that guy knows how to make a character's voice work.

[Yrcrazypa]

It's Jim Cummings! The man who made Minsc who he was! Of course he will be the best part about the movie. I still need to see this, but I'll probably have to wait until the base theater here shows it, because I highly doubt any of the people I work with want to see this.

[Magus]

Haven't seen the flick but I thought the male character was Latino when I first saw something about this, not Caucasian, so I don't know why there's controversy about him being Caucasian, since for all intents and purposes he doesn't appear to be Caucasian at all. Then when I found out it was set in Lousiana, I'd assume him to be Creole LONG before I thought he was supposed to be straight-up Caucasian. I mean, it's not like the guy's from New England, right?

I mean, you could argue that they made him lighter skinned than they could have/should have but it seemed like he was supposed to be a person of color, not Caucasian. I mean, I haven't seen the film but I assume there's no exposition about what race the male character is in it.

[Premmy]

The Movie's based on the Frog prince, and Said prince's name is Nasim or something that sounds remarkably like that... His accent is..... well I have no idea what's going on with that accent, really, French? Somewhere that was a French colony?
you're aso forgetting Hollwood's long standing history of

"It does'nt matter what makes sense! white is always best/normal!"
It's gotten to the point that unless characters look stereotypically(and thus to them), unmistakeably "ethnic" people will assume they're white from jump-street.

[Krylo]

Sooooo it's racist to have a white dude and a black chick together, but it's NOT racist to bitch about a white dude and a black chick getting together?

Did I fall into bizarro world at some point? Is superman made of crystal here? Does bad mean good?

[Premmy]

Only in the sense that it contributes to the(presumably, I don't look too much into the relationship side of things as I hate romance stories) common imagery of white Men "taming" black women. And/or the underrepresentation of positive black romance, thus contributing to poor images of black women ( and if there's one thing I know, it's that black women get the shit end of the stick in a general sense) in our culture as a whole. But I was never on the supporting side of the frog princess thing(did'nt care), my attention is more to Avatar anyway.

[pochercoaster]

Apparently. I read about this earlier on in the development of the movie- a lot of people were bitching about it. Course they can see anything the way they want- damned if you do, damned if you don't. Maybe they forgot about that whole storytelling thing.

Dunno if I'm going to bother actually seeing the movie, but I'm relieved that Disney has revisited traditional animation methods. Their efforts in artistic progression have more or less been... nonexistant in the last decade or so. (Did you know they collaborated with Salvador Dali? >_>) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzzZa5o1q5k)

[Premmy]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't
well, yeah, Inherently Racist Society.

You pretty much cant do anything, creatively speaking without hitting on elements of racism in our culture, the key is to keep it to a minumum, break some barriers when you can, and oppose the horribly blatant stuff.

[Krylo]

Only in the sense that it contributes to the(presumably, I don't look too much into the relationship side of things as I hate romance stories) common imagery of white Men "taming" black women.

How is this a common imagery when interracial relationships in the first place are not?

The far more common imagery is white men "taming" white women. In fact there's a pretty famous play that has that right in the title. That's less a racist thing and more a sexist thing that has to do with women/men of any color/mix of colors than it has to do with white men and black women--especially considering the relative rarity of the latter.

[Premmy]

Eh, extreme example, and, as I said, I'm just speculating.
Plus, negative imagery CAN compound.
Like.
If a story about spouse abuse takes place in the South, that hits the southerners beat their wives Sterotype. If the guy's Irish, and drinks, you just hit about four stereotypes at once.
*shrug*

[Krylo]

Though yeah, I don't think he really comes off as white, or at least not fully white, in the first place.

And I honestly probably won't see this movie.

I just felt like pointing out the silliness of shouting racism as soon as there's an interracial couple, considering the inherent racism in being against interracial couples.

[Premmy]

I'll do what I usually do, See it at home, then watch it in the movies with some folks if it's good.

[Aerozord]

Is superman made of crystal here?

no only the vampires

[Magus]

I too thought it being an interracial couple was groundbreaking as opposed to racist. What gets me is it's apparently not an interracial couple unless it's a white guy and a black woman, it can't be like, a black woman marrying a guy who is part French, part African American, part Spanish, whatever. It has to be straight-up white guy from New England and a black woman, and then it's still racist because it's demeaning to black women to define them by their ability to marry white men. But it's also racist to have the black woman marry a black man because then you are obviously implying that people shouldn't marry across color lines.

Basically, you're screwed if you're Disney. Not that it's not their own fault based on their past works of the past decades, but at some point we could maybe cut them some slack for trying hard.

[Regulus Tera]

That was a beautiful movie. My only real complaint was how Facilier didn't have nearly enough screentime.

[Tev]

Yeah, him and his minions. I wanted more dancing Voodoo dolls!

[Premmy]

I too thought it being an interracial couple was groundbreaking as opposed to racist. What gets me is it's apparently not an interracial couple unless it's a white guy and a black woman, it can't be like, a black woman marrying a guy who is part French, part African American, part Spanish, whatever. It has to be straight-up white guy from New England and a black woman, and then it's still racist because it's demeaning to black women to define them by their ability to marry white men. But it's also racist to have the black woman marry a black man because then you are obviously implying that people shouldn't marry across color lines.

Basically, you're screwed if you're Disney. Not that it's not their own fault based on their past works of the past decades, but at some point we could maybe cut them some slack for trying hard.
He's apparently from a Made-up South American Country.

Eh, there's this whole "issue" with the "positive black family"

but MOVING ON!

A discussion on the film. (http://www.racialicious.com/2009/12/23/a-racialicious-dialogue-on-%e2%80%9cthe-princess-and-the-frog%e2%80%9d/)
AWWWWW (http://blog.superhussy.com/2009/12/the-princess-and-the-frog-ths-2-cents/)

[Nique]

I just felt like pointing out the silliness of shouting racism as soon as there's an interracial couple, considering the inherent racism in being against interracial couples.

This is sort of akin to parts of the disscussion that was had in the Avatar thread. There's so many layers to this mess (the *ahem* "dialog" about racisim) that it has basically made itself completly irrelevant to people who are not racist. As far as I'm concerned, even if a movie has a white hero becuase there is some sort of racist undercurrent amoung white people with money in the real world, if the message of the film is decidedly not about white supremacy (by which I mean it condems any form of racism) then I have no problem with the film.

Esspecially in a movie like this - I mean, this is an interpretation of an existing story. They changed the settings so the characters are "black" becuase it makes sense, but that's only a superficial feature. In reality the characters can be represented by anyone who is a person. Even if the setting isn't changed it doesn't really matter - That's why Denzel Washington can be in a movie like Much Ado About Nothing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Ado_About_Nothing_(film)), and why it doesn't matter what color the prince is in this movie.

[Premmy]

Right, fine, really wanted to just chillax here, but okay.

This is sort of akin to parts of the disscussion that was had in the Avatar thread. There's so many layers to this mess (the *ahem* "dialog" about racisim) that it has basically made itself completly irrelevant to people who are not racist.

I'm assuming dialogue used in scare quotes is supposed to be some kind of sarcasm? no idea what you're intent is with that so, moving on.

"Completely irrelevant to people who are not racist?" So, I suppose people who "are not racist" don't care about people other then themselves being marginalized? what exactly is your point, or at least, do you have a point that does'nt give me a headache?

As far as I'm concerned, even if a movie has a white hero because there is some sort of racist undercurrent amoung white people with money in the real world, if the message of the film is decidedly not about white supremacy (by which I mean it condems any form of racism) then I have no problem with the film.

Great, good for you that you don't care that our racist society continues to present the message that White people belong everywhere but everyone else belongs in very few places, and only in EXTREMELY situational circumstances, and then, only when represented in stereotyped or flanderized versions of their ethnicity.

And I'm glad you think that has no effect on people whatsoever.
I actually am, because if you were denying that happens, My head would probably explode.

I am curious as to why you think a movie has to be "Kill Dem Niggers" to be racist, though, and why "I love niggers" is'nt also racist.

Esspecially in a movie like this - I mean, this is an interpretation of an existing story. They changed the settings so the characters are "black" becuase it makes sense, but that's only a superficial feature. In reality the characters can be represented by anyone who is a person. Even if the setting isn't changed it doesn't really matter - That's why Denzel Washington can be in a movie like Much Ado About Nothing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Ado_About_Nothing_(film)), and why it doesn't matter what color the prince is in this movie.
Yeah, cool, Don't hear me arguing, people asked for some reasons, I listed some possible ones. This movie? yeah, they did well(a far as I've heard, not gonna make any personal judgements until I've seen it), Was it unreasonable for people to express concern given Disney's and Hollywood at large's generally terrible history with handling this kind of subject matter? No, not at all. Most of the concern came out before the movie came out. It's pretty much died down after that though, as the film is generally showing itself to not be completely horrible on that front.(The Voodoo is another thing, though)

[Magus]

The only way for Disney to make up for their past of racism, sexism, and unrealistic expectations is to have their two main characters be multiracial hermaphrodites with mild disabilities who succeed through moderately hard work at earning master's degrees and settling into a decidedly middle class job on their own merits, with only the average amount of adversity towards them presented by another multiracial hermaphrodite with mild disabilities who happens to be evil but is presented as mildly sympathetic due to his/her slightly less than ideal upbringing in a moderately dangerous urban center such as Miami or San Francisco, and who eventually redeems him/herself and also settles into a decidedly middle class job, possibly at the same place of work. The lesson to be learned is that even multiracial hermaphrodites with mild disabilities can succeed in achieving an average amount of success with a moderately taxing work ethic even in the face of moderately challenging pitfalls.

[Nique]

I'm assuming dialogue used in scare quotes is supposed to be some kind of sarcasm? no idea what you're intent is with that so, moving on.

That has more to do with reactionary response to the issue of race when it is brought up in any medium even when the piece obviously presents itself as one that encourages positive relationships between people of different races/creeds etc. This seems less like a dialogue and more like a shouting match to me. I don't necessarily think that you're doing this even if I think you are seeing racism where there isn't any. I'm not sure why you're so eager to assume that I'm trying to be rude with you, but I'm truly not.

So, I suppose people who "are not racist" don't care about people other then themselves being marginalized?

Seriously, do we have to do this? There is such a thing as 'crying wolf', and as much as I agree that racism is a serious and present problem, I think it's ridiculous to point at any light-fare entertainment where the issue of race comes up (Avatar, Princess Frog) and say "That's Racist" when it pretty clearly isn't influencing anyone who watches it to think so and is most certainly not intended to do anything of the sort.

Great, good for you that you don't care that our racist society continues to present the message that White people belong everywhere but everyone else belongs in very few places, and only in EXTREMELY situational circumstances, and then, only when represented in stereotyped or flanderized versions of their ethnicity...

I am curious as to why you think a movie has to be "Kill Dem Niggers" to be racist, though, and why "I love niggers" is'nt also racist.

**(Deleted in the interests of being civil even though you totally deserve it)**

I'm talking about the stories themselves.

no problem with the film.

If I actually have to say this; It DOES bother me that our media tends to bypass non-whites in lead roles, or that there are virtually no interracial couples on TV. I have tons of problems with 'show business'. But I don't know that the actual content of many films or books these days do much to defend those practices. Most of them that address it at all decry it. So I mean, I don't know, what? Should I stop watching tv to protest?

Right, fine, really wanted to just chillax here, but okay.

As I at no point did anything to earn you ire, you really only have yourself to blame here.

[Premmy]

I really should'nt be up this late/early, honestly.

Okay.
Premmy's final word on racism EVAR!:

Racism: Kinda Sucky
Racism: It's everywhere
Racism: NOT A BIG DEAL!

Racism comes from the essential conflict of one "race(an artificial construct in and of itself) being over another in terms of power, numbers, culture, and influence. To the point that one is disadvantaged.
Got it?
OK!

This manifests itself culturally, behaviorally, and philosophically, as bias, discrimination, and prejudice.

What does all this have to do with my little bit of repetition up top?

Kinda Sucky: It's not cool that people have power over each other, it'd be better if we all shared the wealth and such
It's Everywhere: It manifests itself in all aspects of our culture and society
NOT A BIG DEAL!: IT's FUCKING EVERYWHERE! in little things and big things, but since there are disproportionately more little things than big things, it'd be hairpullingly maddening to stress the fuck out about all the little stuff.

"Then Why care at all?"
well it's because of this part

Disproportionately more

There's more small instances and examples and manifestations of racism than big. Most of them are so minor they go unnoticed. The rest are barely noticable.

"Answer the question then, Why care at all?"
Because you can't drown in a drop of water, but you can drown in a lake.

Simply being aware that you are in the lake, and thus should be swimming to shore, or relaxing so you can float, will save your life.

Realizing you're in a lake, freaking out because you're afraid of water, then flailing like an idiot, will help you drown quicker, and if someone tries to save you, they'll be pulled down with you..Denying you're in it and trying to stand up as if you're on land will do the same.

If you decide to actively and calmly fix your problem, you won't drown. If you decide to passively and calmly address your situation, you won't drown. And if anyone tries to save you, you'll both get out unscathed, though you'll also be soaking wet.

If you realize the minor elements of racism in our culture and daily lives you can

Actively Reject it, attempting to eliminate it from your life(though you'll still be wet)
Realize it and passively address it( you'll live, and you'll drift to shore, but, again, you'll still be wet)

Either way, denying it or freaking out will only worsen the situation, for you, and everyone involved.

So, to do away with the Metaphor, Racism is everywhere.
Don't freak out, just deal with it.

As for "Shouting matches" You'll never see Me going "RAAAGH RACISM!" At my height of displeasure you'll see me go "Ugghh... racism" and more often than not you'll see me go "Eh, racism, whatchagonna do?"

I'll discuss it with you, I'll debate it with you, but I don't get pissed about racism. I DO get pissed off about the "LALALALA I'm NOT LISTENING! NO RACISM EVER! lalala" attitude, and I just sat through two threads of that, simply because that's infuriating to hear from anyone about anything..

I'm racist, you're racist.
Our favorite shows and songs are racist, because that's how our culture is designed.
Big Fucking Deal.

[Nique]

Ok... I mean that's a fine metaphor but do you seriously think after what I just posted that all that was needed?

I mean I don't know man you're saying that you don't get pissed about it but you were JUST being a major dick and about 1 step away from calling me a racist. Oh wait...

I'm racist, you're racist.

Ok I see what you're saying about being aware of issues like this but this seems like an impractical way to look at things, mainly becuase it's wrong.

Also;

"LALALALA I'm NOT LISTENING! NO RACISM EVER! lalala" attitude

Since this never happened I think you may want to go ahead and consider the possibility that you are completly overreacting.