Crimson Echoes

[Jagos]

Yep. Another game was shut down by Square that coulda been a contendah in the modding world. I'm actually checking it out and it looks pretty good. It was supposed to be between Trigger and Cross. I'm checking out the game and liking it so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abUSev5e2Is&feature=PlayList&p=E952926C2A6E7039&index=0&playnext=1

I'll get back to you all when I finish. But damnit Square, LET these people continue Crono Trigger! You aren't doing ANYTHING with the franchise save squandering chances to let us see a great game. We see Toriyama RIGHT FRIGGIN THERE! Use him and give use a (Crono) Break!

[Dracorion]

Didn't this happen, like, forever ago?

[Kim]

Didn't this happen, like, forever ago?

Yes, it did, and I am still abso-fucking-lutely delighted that it got shut down. The fewer people convinced that they can become famous video game programmers by writing fanfiction instead of their own damn game, the better.

EDIT: Square is already doing a terrible job trying to tie CT to CC we don't need the fans doing an even worse job.

Now, I am pretty much completely opposed to fan games. When Chrono Trigger: Crimson Whatever-the-Fuck got canned because Squeenix sent the makers a cease and desist letter, I was actually happy. Making a game, movie, or book that uses somebody else’s characters to tell your own story is the work of a hack. I don’t care who you are or how long you’ve been working on your Final Fantasy VIII prequel. The moment you decided that you were going to use an established universe and characters to tell whatever fan story you decided would be super duper cool, your game was less for it. Is it possible your game won’t suck? Yes, but it’s about as likely as a game critic getting laid. (For those of you who aren’t game critics, that’s not very damn likely)

[Jagos]

I just found out about it. It happened in May. I just find it odd that they did so much work on it but Square shut it down when it was so near to completion.

The fewer people convinced that they can become famous video game programmers by writing fanfiction instead of their own damn game, the better.

Hmmm... They made a game with an original story... They used music from all over the place (OCRemix), they were fans that were nonprofit with their only mistake being that they hacked the game, used (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/247277) the sprites (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/208746), and basically used this to continue something that Square has barely touched save for a remake which isn't all that original but put together to link a bad sequel.

Yeah. Big improvement.

-Edit- I'll pass judgement on how CE did with what it had after I watch the entire series. Right now, it seems too much bias against something that still took time to complete.

[Mirai Gen]

Yeah this was a big thing back when it first happened.

I'm kind of in between Noncon's angle and the typical fan reaction, as both sides have equally right points but I honestly don't see the harm in fanwork (or fanwank amirite?), especially since Square Enix seems utterly convinced that making games with either Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts in the name is their only profit.

[Kim]

I'm being kind of a dick about it, and for that I apologize. I'm just extremely irritated at this whole thing, and others like it. Reasons:

1. Fanfiction is almost universally terrible. There are exceptions, but they are rare, and so when fans get all excited for a fan game, it's a tad annoying that they're getting all pumped up over fanfiction.

2. They aren't asking money, but they're expecting to profit from their fanfiction in some form, generally in the "Oh hey the guys who made Crimson Echoes are making something else it's gonna be SO COOL AMIRITE?" way. The whole concept of trying to profit off of something someone else did just irks me.

3. If they actually could make a decent CT fan game, with a plot that isn't balls-ass stupid, and I doubt that it wouldn't be since it's trying to tie CT to CC, I am certain that they could make something far better if they weren't so focused on it being a fan game.

[Mirai Gen]

Nothing wrong with having strong feelings about it, and I totally get your perspective.

The only reason I'm on the fan creator's side slightly is because some good things have come out of the fan community, and usually developers are extremely laid-back about it. Square Enix's "Because We Can" shut down with absolutely no plans of their own was really backhanded both with Crimson Echoes and with Chrono Ressurection.

Yeah they're more than fine doing what they want, but it's been in my experience that C+Ds are usually sent out when they're already planning on doing something of their own, see Halo Wars/Halogen. It's all the more asinine when you tack on SE's dogged insistence that one of the greatest jRPGs of all time with a high-selling, high-scoring (by websites anyway) sequel and a very respectably-selling port to two different systems just doesn't deserve their attention.

EDIT: Basically this is much much lower than the usual developer C+D fare, and it sticks out.

[bluestarultor]

I'm actually with Noncon on this. It's Square's IP, with the emphasis on P, as in "property." It's Square's stuff to do with as it pleases. Doing otherwise would be like a guy going and digging up a person's dead pet under the presumption that the owner wasn't using it. Maybe the owner doesn't WANT to use it, hmm?

People feel so entitled these days it's almost nauseating. They feel they "deserve" a game, or "deserve" their fan game, or "deserve" to be able to make a fan game, when the only thing they "deserve" is a whack upside the head and a "what the fuck."

And of course it's bad press for the company as people wave the "stomping on the little guy" flag over it.




Frankly, as a game designer, myself, I can give the honest personal opinion that people who make fan games are misguided at best and at worst are entitled, opportunistic, lazy, and/or just plain sticky-fingered (in the sense they're thieves, not wankers). There's a real stigma against things like decompiling code in the programming industry because it's simply not your work, and I feel the same way about using someone else's other resources, such as graphics, sound, or setting. It's plagiarism, is what it is, only instead of stealing their words, you're stealing their art.

[Jagos]

Non, I think it's a little harsh to say that fanfiction is outright stupid (even if it is). First, these people understand that what they were making was more of an homage as well as an interpretation that they put time into because they liked the stories of Trigger and Break to such an extent that they wanted to expand on it.

None of this was supposed to be taken as canon. They worked on it on their own time. Also, what they were doing was far more complicated than merely using the established characters in words (which is what I'm assuming by your use of "fanfiction"). They made the quests, they made Crono talk, they even listened to feedback and made improvements on trying to keep some of the humor and lighthearted tone of the game they're emulating. Hell, on the first part, they're wanting their fans to continue to support Chrono Trigger through buying the DS game.

2) Granted, they get a little fanfare. They can be accepted and perhaps, PERHAPS, Square picks up the story and says "how'd you like to help us with Break?" or some other spinoff in the Trigger mythos. It worked well for Valve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Half-Life_mods) back in the day, works well now.

3) I have yet to play Cross. I get the sentiment that it's an average game tied by some tenuous links to Trigger but I can't say I like to dismiss something when I feel it should be judged more on merits, than a plot device that for all intents and purposes, this group may have worked out.

Blues, play more TF2 (http://swamp.tf2maps.net/).

[Mirai Gen]

Frankly, as a game designer, myself, I can give the honest personal opinion that people who make fan games are misguided at best and at worst are entitled, opportunistic, lazy, and/or just plain sticky-fingered (in the sense they're thieves, not wankers).
I'm going to chalk this up to Bluespeak and just let this go.

[Kim]

Also, what they were doing was far more complicated than merely using the established characters in words (which is what I'm assuming by your use of "fanfiction"). They made the quests, they made Crono talk, they even listened to feedback and made improvements on trying to keep some of the humor and lighthearted tone of the game they're emulating.

Oh they put quests in a RPG and listened to the fans. Obviously the writing couldn't be terrible now. Obviously. In fact, I'm pretty sure this was going to be the best game of all time because they really cared about the source material so hard.

EDIT: And if they think that Squeenix is going to hire them because they hacked a billion year old SNES rom they are fucking kidding themselves.

[Nikose Tyris]

I'm going to chalk this up to Bluespeak and just let this go.

Funny enough, I can't.



Frankly, as a game designer, myself, I can give the honest personal opinion that people who make fan games are misguided at best and at worst are entitled, opportunistic, lazy, and/or just plain sticky-fingered (in the sense they're thieves, not wankers).

You're not actually a game designer. You know next to nothing about how designing games actually works, and the legitimate designers of games are usually overworked code junkies on teams of 14-25 that have to deal with supervisors that see half-thought ideas online and demand to have them put into a game. People who make fan-games are idealists. People who make Fan-anything usually have a story to tell, and despite being fanfiction, can occasionally be good. [See: Nukleapower.com] I'm going to pretend that your post up there about "Fan games" didn't include Fanfiction of all types, such as the work of Brian Clevinger.

There's a real stigma against things like decompiling code in the programming industry because it's simply not your work, and I feel the same way about using someone else's other resources, such as graphics, sound, or setting. It's plagiarism, is what it is, only instead of stealing their words, you're stealing their art.

If by "Stigma" you mean "Standard practice that pretty much everyone does" then you need to look up what Stigma means. Companies recycle code like motherfuckers. Spore, for example? Recycled Harry Potter. I'm not joking at all. It is the exact same engine.



So, if we take it from the angle you brought it in, The Spore Team stole from the Harry Potter team, since they were different devs inside the same company, but didn't write unique code.

[Jagos]

Oh they put quests in a RPG and listened to the fans. Obviously the writing couldn't be terrible now. Obviously. In fact, I'm pretty sure this was going to be the best game of all time because they really cared about the source material so hard.

EDIT: And if they think that Squeenix is going to hire them because they hacked a billion year old SNES rom they are fucking kidding themselves.

Sarcasm aside, what I'm saying is more to do with the fact that they're putting more work into it than most other outright hacks which do nothing but reinterpret the CT story by adding a Lucca and Crono love story and call it a day.

It's a game that they were doing in their free time. Fairly similar to me using 4th edition rules and the Greyhawk campaign to come up with a character. It has a basis in one world but it's their interpretation. If their story is fairly good, great. If it isn't, no sweat it's not a game to interfere with Square's main business. A few people like the game, maybe Square could use it and make their own.

As I see it, Square isn't doing squat diddly but sitting on a franchise that they have little if any intention of using to its full advantage. Great if it's their IP, but if they're not going to use it in a commercial game, why should they care what their fans do?

[bluestarultor]

Mirai, there's a wee problem with a "tribute" when it comes to games. You can make a tribute to a movie with an AMV, or a tribute to a book by recording a few scenes with some friends acting, but you don't remake the movie or rewrite the book.

The problem here is the media. They were specifically using a media, in fact the SAME media, to create a story. Nobody cares if it was canon. They were using Square's resources. They were creating a product using items that were not theirs to use in the same format as the originals and had a pretty darn high profile. That would be the difference between writing Twilight fanfiction and writing Twilight fanfiction, getting it published, and then distributing copies of it for free in a paperback. The fact of the matter is that so long as it stays on some blog somewhere, nobody cares, because it's not in the same format. It doesn't matter if you give it away for free or not.




If they had chosen to write it as a story, or make a small movie, or do ANYTHING but make it a game, it would have been a non-issue. They didn't, and they knew the risks. I'd personally put that team under the misguided category of my previous statement. They wanted to bridge the gap in the most honest way possible. On the other hand, they realized what might happen and accepted it, which was the most honorable thing they could have done. I really do look up to their honesty and wish them well in future projects. Hopefully, the work they put into that project reflects what they'd be capable of doing an original one, because from what I saw, it was a good product.








Edit: Nik: No, "stigma" is an appropriate word. There's a real disdain for people who decompile code from other programs to use in their own. An engine can be legitimately purchased, and I have NO idea what I said to indicate that programmers didn't recycle code as much as humanly possible. On the other hand, they recycle code they have the legal rights to, or else they'd get sued.

And no, maybe I'm not a "real" game designer, but I'm in the process of designing my own games and can say, personally, that if someone went about mucking around with the resources I've spent the past three years creating, I'd be a wee bit pissed, ESPECIALLY if they used it to create another game. Maybe it's because I'm a small time schmuck, but those resources are mine; I made them. It would be a real kick in the balls if someone just up and stole all my tiles to make another game from. Every last one of them was hand done by me for my own purposes. If I wanted other people to use them, I'd have posted them as a sprite sheet somewhere and been done with it by now.




Edit: And to be specific, no, I have absolutely nothing against fanfiction so long as it's not in the same format. 8-Bit is by no means a video game, so there's no problem with Brian doing it. Conversely, I think Brian would be pretty flattered if someone whipped up a decent Atomic Robo game, as it wouldn't be competing with his market. On the other hand, if someone started up a competing site called 16-Bit Theater and started copying his 8BT comics with 16-bit sprites, I think he'd be rightfully pissed.

[Nikose Tyris]

@Jagos:

Oh, I somewhat agree with you. I'm not seeing it worthwhile to get my panties in a bunch, but fangames? I'm all for them. I play the pokemon hacks myself and have a great time. There was one that replaced pokemon with Pokegirls and each girl had a description. It was terribly sexist and sexualized, but besides being perverted, was amazingly well done. Every pokedex entry was changed. It was built on FireRed, if I remember correctly.

On the other hand, If someone creates a game, it's their creation. They have the right to limit recreations and fan-made projects to their hearts content. the Pokemon Team doesn't seem to care to stop hacks being made; the Chrono Team does. While it might suck to see good ideas wasted, it's just how it is. Would it be prefferable for all things to belong to a central idea government where any idea you have can have a sequel made by anyone else?

I understand it's hard to see my viewpoint here, and I'm not doing great explaining it, but picture this:

I invent a game in 1995. I call it "Canada: The Mystery of the haunted mansion." It's a PS1 Game, and on the playstation store. Fans want to play the game on the 360, so they make a reskinned port for the 360 arcade. I haven't done anything with it except re-release it on the PS3 store, and the fans have made it a free download on the 360 Arcade.

Would I be cool with this? Maybe I would be! Maybe I just didn't have any 360 programmers, or couldn't graphic design for 360. More likely, I'd be pissed because while people on the PS3 were downloading my game for $2.99 cause it's cheap and fun to play, I'm losing money on a 360 port.


It's -NOT- the exact same scenario, but I feel it's similar enough of an analogy. "Why would I buy the Chrono Remake when I can download the Crimson Echoes Fan Sequel for free?"

[Kim]

Jagos, if you'd pay attention you'd see that the main cause of my annoyance is that they are trying to benefit from a fan work, that even if it wasn't terrible they could easily make something better if they weren't focused on it being a fan work, and that for some bizarre reason whenever it comes to fan games everyone seems to go all a flutter with how awesome it's going to be when no, it probably isn't.

If people applied the same scrutiny that they do to normal video games to these fan works, I probably wouldn't care.

If I actually believed the makers were doing it just for fun instead of acting under some delusion that it would make them popular or that Squeenix would hire them, I probably wouldn't care.

If any of these people had previous original works under their belt that said "Yes, I can actually write something without ripping off somebody else," I probably wouldn't care.

Instead it's just a big annoyance, and every time that someone says, "Hey, check out this Youtube video of this awesome fan game that is gonna be so fucking cool!" it wears on my nerves just a tad bit more.

[CelesJessa]

Man, and all of these artists who draw all of this fanart. All haaaacks.

I guess I just have the completely opposite opinion of some people. I think fanmade stuff is awesome. Opposed to NPF's popular opinion, not all fanfiction is shit. There is a good portion of shit, but I have read a lot of well done fanfictions as well . And well done fan art, etc (P.S. a good portion of original work is shit too).

What I'm more interested in is that they're actually creating instead of just ingesting what other people give them all the time. Fandom, original, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Some of the most fantastic artists/writers who have made amazing original stories make amazing fan-stories as well. And hey, not everyone wants to grow up and publish their own original best-seller book/game/etc. Some people like to just imagine and create within an inspiring world they've found.

Or maybe, as someone who has done all of this horrible fan..... dom creating stuff (that's right, I've written fanfiction, with Mary Sues to boot, AND I've helped with fangames(that never finished but HEY) and I'm totally okay with it because I was just *gasp* having fun with something recreational that I enjoy.) I read other people who want to make fan works more positively.

[Kim]

The vast majority of fan art is terrible. There is some really good fan art, but most is terrible. There are really good fanfics (probably) but most of it is terrible. However, I'm generally nicer to those and don't go out of my way to diss on them because that stuff doesn't really have a hype period. You are experiencing it now.

Fan games, apart from being much easier to fuck up, always have to release a lot of hype building stuff, like the Youtube video of the "totally awesome fan game" I mentioned before. When you see art or a story, you are able to judge it then and there, and it is more readily apparent whether it is good or bad. Fan games you can't always tell based on a Youtube vid, and yet people get pulled into the hype of how wonderfully splendiforous it's going to be simply because it's based on something they liked. They have no way of knowing if it'll be any good, like they would with fan art or a fanfic someone posted online, but without any reason other than the source material they jump to the conclusion that it will be. This is why I said I would care less if people were more critical of fan games prior to release or if the people making them had released something original beforehand for me to judge.

Also also, with fan art or a fan story you're using less of someone else's work than you are with a romhack.

[Mike McC]

The vast majority of fan art is terrible. There is some really good fan art, but most is terrible. There are really good fanfics (probably) but most of it is terrible.This can be applied to pretty much everything.

In fact, let's do that right now. Establish a good baseline.

Eh-hem.

99% of everything is shitty!

There we go, you may now continue.Fan games, apart from being much easier to fuck up, always have to release a lot of hype building stuff, like the Youtube video of the "totally awesome fan game" I mentioned before. When you see art or a story, you are able to judge it then and there, and it is more readily apparent whether it is good or bad. Fan games you can't always tell based on a Youtube vid, and yet people get pulled into the hype of how wonderfully splendiforous it's going to be simply because it's based on something they liked. They have no way of knowing if it'll be any good, like they would with fan art or a fanfic someone posted online, but without any reason other than the source material they jump to the conclusion that it will be. This is why I said I would care less if people were more critical of fan games prior to release or if the people making them had released something original beforehand for me to judge.You know, I could literally say the almost exact same thing about, for example, Bayonetta, and still be entirely accurate. Just replace 'YouTube' with 'trailer' and 'based on something' with 'made by a creator'.

[CelesJessa]

Fair enough, I just never got why... hate it I guess. I mean, so what people are getting into the hype. If it's good it will be good, if it's bad it will be bad and burn in the hype it generated.

But hey! I was just showing some love for the fandom community. If you want to hate it, then, by all means, be my guest. I really don't mind.

[Kim]

Fair enough, I just never got why... hate it I guess.

In truth I'm probably a little harsh on them and need to cut back. Part of it, I think, is just being annoyed at all the bitching I heard when Crimson Echoes was actually canceled, when I couldn't really understand why people were so excited for it in the first place. More specifically some of the really really stupid bitching. I'm sorry that a game people were looking forward to got C&D'd, but being able to hack a twenty year old rom does not qualify someone for a gig at Squeenix. I'm fairly sure you never made that argument, but that was one that got on my nerves a bit back then, and stands out in my memory.

[Kroze Gamegod]

The problem here is the media. They were specifically using a media, in fact the SAME media, to create a story. Nobody cares if it was canon. They were using Square's resources. They were creating a product using items that were not theirs to use in the same format as the originals and had a pretty darn high profile. That would be the difference between writing Twilight fanfiction and writing Twilight fanfiction, getting it published, and then distributing copies of it for free in a paperback. The fact of the matter is that so long as it stays on some blog somewhere, nobody cares, because it's not in the same format. It doesn't matter if you give it away for free or not.

Oh god I totally hate it when people do shit like that, especially when they keep their tribute in the same stupid medium because thats just asking for trouble. And it even angers me more when I see people get insanely popular over it and they don't have anything else under their belt so that just means all they can do is steal stuff and just are dirty thieves who's reinterpretation on said project should be immedately discounted and stupid and they should burn in hell for all eternity! The only thing I hate MORE than that is people who are British! God, I would hate to ever be involved with something like that. ANGER!!!! (http://yugiohtheabridgedseries.com)

[Kim]

Game /= Episodic thing on Youtube

And I still think he could probably make something better if he was doing an original project.

[Kroze Gamegod]

Game /= Episodic thing on Youtube

Then where is the line drawn?
So its okay to be done with tv shows and movies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000) but not with video games?
I thought people have been fighting for awhile to get the two on the same level playing field and looked at and viewed the same exact way.

I was mainly just fighting Blue's point about its wrong doing a tribute or a fan work within the same medium as the original material...

Also, last I checked wasn't Twilight just Anne Rice fanfiction? Cuz I am pretty sure it was...

[Kim]

Then where is the line drawn?

However, I'm generally nicer to those and don't go out of my way to diss on them because that stuff doesn't really have a hype period. You are experiencing it now.

Fan games, apart from being much easier to fuck up, always have to release a lot of hype building stuff, like the Youtube video of the "totally awesome fan game" I mentioned before. When you see art or a story, you are able to judge it then and there, and it is more readily apparent whether it is good or bad. Fan games you can't always tell based on a Youtube vid, and yet people get pulled into the hype of how wonderfully splendiforous it's going to be simply because it's based on something they liked. They have no way of knowing if it'll be any good, like they would with fan art or a fanfic someone posted online, but without any reason other than the source material they jump to the conclusion that it will be. This is why I said I would care less if people were more critical of fan games prior to release or if the people making them had released something original beforehand for me to judge.

I was mainly just fighting Blue's point...

While also referring to my posts in your angry exaggerated rant.

Also, last I checked wasn't Twilight just Anne Rice fanfiction? Cuz I am pretty sure it was...

Proving my point that most fanfiction is terrible.

[Mike McC]

Actually, I've hear everythign from Anne Rice fanfic to Buffy and Angel fanfic for Twilight. I think it's just something snarky internet jerks say to further (and, frankly, unnecesarily) sleight Twilight.

I mean, just because Bella is a major Mary Sue does not a fanfiction make.

[Kroze Gamegod]

Fan games, apart from being much easier to fuck up, always have to release a lot of hype building stuff, like the Youtube video of the "totally awesome fan game" I mentioned before. When you see art or a story, you are able to judge it then and there, and it is more readily apparent whether it is good or bad. Fan games you can't always tell based on a Youtube vid, and yet people get pulled into the hype of how wonderfully splendiforous it's going to be simply because it's based on something they liked. They have no way of knowing if it'll be any good, like they would with fan art or a fanfic someone posted online, but without any reason other than the source material they jump to the conclusion that it will be. This is why I said I would care less if people were more critical of fan games prior to release or if the people making them had released something original beforehand for me to judge.

Yes because downloading a FREE fan made game and then playing it for a couple minutes won't give you a good feel on how good the game actually is and plays.
Just like looking at a picture for a few seconds on deviant art and being able to tell if it sucks ass or not... or reading the first paragraph of a fanfiction written on fanfiction.net.
Why can't people judge for themselves if something is good or not?

You don't have to get pulled into the hype and really these fan made game projects take an awful lot longer to make then just drawing up a picture or writing a few paragraphs of dialog and releasing your first chapter. Some youtube videos aren't there for hype at all, its to show ACTUAL progress is happening on the game itself and to show its not dead to all the people who are waiting for it.

I honestly wonder if we'd be having the same conversation here if the game wasn't a rom hack and instead made by itself... which Squenix has shown with Chrono Resurrection that they would STILL shut it down either way if they did all the programming or did not.

While there are a LOT of bad fan games out there, there are also a shitload of GREAT fangames out there that top even the actual companies attempts at making games...

Sonic Robo Blast 2 (http://srb2.org) is possibly the greatest example of this... Hey! Its a Sonic game that actually plays AMAZINGLY WELL in 3D and plays just like the classics and its made in FREAKIN DOOM LEGACY.

And how about stuff like the Left 4 Dead demake that Valve themselves loved (http://sites.google.com/site/ericdavidruth/game-left4dead)?

Finally, yes... lets be more critical of a game before its released and that we haven't played or experienced yet.
Judge a book by its cover much?

[Kim]

Yes because downloading a FREE fan made game and then playing it for a couple minutes won't give you a good feel on how good the game actually is and plays.

Not until it's released it won't. Which was why I said hype period. You know, the period in which they hype up a game. Because it is an extended duration of time, that being what I meant by period, during which the game is not being actually experienced in any tangible way, but instead only enough that people might get excited for it, which is what hype is. As opposed to choosing the words in my posts completely at random.

Some youtube videos aren't there for hype at all, its to show ACTUAL progress is happening on the game itself and to show its not dead to all the people who are waiting for it.

Fans can be just as responsible for hype as the creators. When someone sends me a Youtube link talking about how awesome something looks, they are trying to build hype just the same as the creators are by putting that video up.

I honestly wonder if we'd be having the same conversation here if the game wasn't a rom hack and instead made by itself... which Squenix has shown with Chrono Resurrection that they would STILL shut it down either way if they did all the programming or did not.

I'd probably still assume that the story would be complete and utter ass, but I'd think that the game creators were less lazy with the game itself, so there is that in their favor.


Sonic Robo Blast 2 (http://srb2.org) is possibly the greatest example of this... Hey! Its a Sonic game that actually plays AMAZINGLY WELL in 3D and plays just like the classics and its made in FREAKIN DOOM LEGACY.

I've played this and it's nowhere near as good as you build it up to be. Part of the reason is that Sonic feels like he's out of control in a bad way.

And how about stuff like the Left 4 Dead demake that Valve themselves loved (http://sites.google.com/site/ericdavidruth/game-left4dead)?

You'll note the inclusion of such key words as "majority" and "most" in all my posts. It allows for outliers such as these. Not to say I've played this though. I'm not really interested in it.

Finally, yes... lets be more critical of a game before its released and that we haven't played or experienced yet.
Judge a book by its cover much?

Yes, because when you watch a trailer of a game before it's released and think it looks awesome, regardless of whether it's a fan game or not, you totally aren't judging a book on its cover. Totally.

[Kroze Gamegod]

Fans can be just as responsible for hype as the creators. When someone sends me a Youtube link talking about how awesome something looks, they are trying to build hype just the same as the creators are by putting that video up.

It seems to me you are confusing hype with people having a genuine interest in something that has not been released yet. I don't understand how you can view something like that as bad. Without word being spread, Firefly would have NEVER become as big a hit as it did become.

I've played this and it's nowhere near as good as you build it up to be. Part of the reason is that Sonic feels like he's out of control in a bad way.

I was comparing it to every single 3D Sonic game made my Sega thus far and compared to those, this is leaps and bounds ahead of anything from the official games and what those have given us...

Rest of NonCon's post

So far everything you have said can easily be said and applied to actual video games in development.
The problems you are referring to aren't just confined to fan made games.
Hell, at the rate of how many fan made games go under the radar till they are actually released and stay under the radar is way WAAAAAAYYYY less then the actual video game industry itself.
And we all know that's not gonna be changing any time soon.

[Kim]

It seems to me you are confusing hype with people having a genuine interest in something that has not been released yet. I don't understand how you can view something like that as bad. Without word being spread, Firefly would have NEVER become as big a hit as it did become.

And we all know how that story ended. My problem is less with the hype itself, and more that the hype is based entirely around "Guys fans are making a fan game based on Chrono Trigger and you know it's gonna be good because they're fans so they'll give the fans what the fans want."

So far everything you have said can easily be said and applied to actual video games in development.
The problems you are referring to aren't just confined to fan made games.
Hell, at the rate of how many fan made games go under the radar till they are actually released and stay under the radar is way WAAAAAAYYYY less then the actual video game industry itself.
And we all know that's not gonna be changing any time soon.

Yes, except, more often then not, hype for other video games is based around features of the game, like Fable's hype is about all you can do, or they've enjoyed other works by the same people, so they have faith that those people will put out a product of similar quality to that which they previously released. Hype for fan games is based almost entirely on the "fan" part and not enough on the game.

[EVILNess]

Then where is the line drawn?


Something like DBZ Abridged or YuGiOh Abridged falls squarely under parody in copyright law. Since it's, you know, a parody.

Something like this is quite honestly no contest.

On the one hand SE could argue that it might damage their ability to use the IP in the future and it very well could if in the unlikely event that they show up SE with their own IP like with the whole 3d remake thing they had going before. It would have theoretically trumped the original in graphics, gameplay, etc.

On the other hand, it is fan-fiction and honestly, probably, harmless.

However, douche move or not fanfiction kinda violates three tenants of copyright, Reproduction, Adaptation (i.e. creation of derivative work i.e. to the i.e FANFICTION), and Distribution to the public.

In short, they have a right to protect their characters like rabid dogs fighting over a bone. They aren't wrong, no matter what the internet's culture of self entitlement says.

I might also add that if these guys are such hotshot game makers then why are they hacking a SNES rpg and not making the next proverbial Chrono Trigger.

[Mirai Gen]

I've said my part herein and don't have much more to add, but I'm going to throw this out here --
You know, I could literally say the almost exact same thing about, for example, Bayonetta, and still be entirely accurate. Just replace 'YouTube' with 'trailer' and 'based on something' with 'made by a creator'.
That is an ridiculous, absurd exaggeration and you know it.

[Mike McC]

I've said my part herein and don't have much more to add, but I'm going to throw this out here --You know, I could literally say the almost exact same thing about, for example, Bayonetta, and still be entirely accurate. Just replace 'YouTube' with 'trailer' and 'based on something' with 'made by a creator'.That is an ridiculous, absurd exaggeration and you know it.No, it really is not. The paragraph works EXACTLY the same way. It says nothing of why fangames are bad; it says everything of why hype for any game in general is bad. It is not a well constructed argument.

[Jagos]

Yes, because hype (http://cardgallery.tales-tra.com/main.htm) for a game doesn't get us excited nor tell us about something that might be great if it never finishes.

[CelesJessa]

However, douche move or not fanfiction kinda violates three tenants of copyright, Reproduction, Adaptation (i.e. creation of derivative work i.e. to the i.e FANFICTION), and Distribution to the public.

In short, they have a right to protect their characters like rabid dogs fighting over a bone. They aren't wrong, no matter what the internet's culture of self entitlement says.

Well, technically you can still think they're wrong. Yes, they legally have the right to protect their work but if you don't agree with those copyright laws then you can still think the whole system is wrong. Being legal doesn't automatically make it not wrong.

Man, I am such a hippy.

[Token]

Well, technically you can still think they're wrong. Yes, they legally have the right to protect their work but if you don't agree with those copyright laws then you can still think the whole system is wrong. Being legal doesn't automatically make it not wrong.

Man, I am such a hippy.

As nice as that sounds, the problem is that copyright laws are meant to help the creators, who (in the case of a rom hack at least I'm being hypocritical here, there's nothing I love more than a good Pokemon hack :sweatdrop) out much more effort into making a game than a few fans who sat back and tweaked the code a bit. I can understand why people would think that's not right, but from the point of view of the original creators, it is right.

Hopefully that made sense, I just woke up. If it didn't, sorry. :/

[CelesJessa]

As nice as that sounds, the problem is that copyright laws are meant to help the creators, who (in the case of a rom hack at least I'm being hypocritical here, there's nothing I love more than a good Pokemon hack :sweatdrop) out much more effort into making a game than a few fans who sat back and tweaked the code a bit. I can understand why people would think that's not right, but from the point of view of the original creators, it is right.

Hopefully that made sense, I just woke up. If it didn't, sorry. :/

I understand, I was just saying that there are people, both creators and people who enjoy creations, that don't agree with copyright laws (it's not just an "internet culture" thing. My computer art/video art professor rants about this all the time and there are lots of fights about appropriation and copyright laws.) therefor, in their eyes, they can still think the the whole thing is wrong.

EDIT: clarification: It's totally okay for Square to think it's right, but it's also okay for people to think it's wrong too.

[Locke cole]

Something like DBZ Abridged or YuGiOh Abridged falls squarely under parody in copyright law. Since it's, you know, a parody.

Something like this is quite honestly no contest.

On the one hand SE could argue that it might damage their ability to use the IP in the future and it very well could if in the unlikely event that they show up SE with their own IP like with the whole 3d remake thing they had going before. It would have theoretically trumped the original in graphics, gameplay, etc.

On the other hand, it is fan-fiction and honestly, probably, harmless.

However, douche move or not fanfiction kinda violates three tenants of copyright, Reproduction, Adaptation (i.e. creation of derivative work i.e. to the i.e FANFICTION), and Distribution to the public.

In short, they have a right to protect their characters like rabid dogs fighting over a bone. They aren't wrong, no matter what the internet's culture of self entitlement says.

I might also add that if these guys are such hotshot game makers then why are they hacking a SNES rpg and not making the next proverbial Chrono Trigger.
...yeah, gonna have to agree with this guy.

[Nikose Tyris]

Edit: Nik: No, "stigma" is an appropriate word. There's a real disdain for people who decompile code from other programs to use in their own. An engine can be legitimately purchased, and I have NO idea what I said to indicate that programmers didn't recycle code as much as humanly possible. On the other hand, they recycle code they have the legal rights to, or else they'd get sued.

See I was hoping you wouldn't continue this argument and just drop it. Now look what you've done. EvilNESS covered one angle, I'll cover the other.

Actual companies don't give two damns about code-theft, blues. Most companies don't HAVE unique code, it's just old code assembled in a new way. It's the Havok engine how many times over in every game? You think that every company is going to use the same engine in a unique way every time?

Ever wonder why the character models in Bionic Commando and X-Men Origins: Wolverine move in, essentially, the EXACT same way? Why they look so similar in motion and pose that they could be the identical model, reskinned?

Code is borrowed, recycled, reused over and over. Choice bits of code are given to publishers sometimes to be disseminated, too- I've played the middleman between a company and Nintendo trying to work out a minor motion bug. Even the Consoles have recycled code that's shared between companies.


And no, maybe I'm not a "real" game designer, but I'm in the process of designing my own games and can say, personally, that if someone went about mucking around with the resources I've spent the past three years creating, I'd be a wee bit pissed, ESPECIALLY if they used it to create another game. Maybe it's because I'm a small time schmuck, but those resources are mine; I made them. It would be a real kick in the balls if someone just up and stole all my tiles to make another game from. Every last one of them was hand done by me for my own purposes. If I wanted other people to use them, I'd have posted them as a sprite sheet somewhere and been done with it by now.

Edit: And to be specific, no, I have absolutely nothing against fanfiction so long as it's not in the same format. 8-Bit is by no means a video game, so there's no problem with Brian doing it. Conversely, I think Brian would be pretty flattered if someone whipped up a decent Atomic Robo game, as it wouldn't be competing with his market. On the other hand, if someone started up a competing site called 16-Bit Theater and started copying his 8BT comics with 16-bit sprites, I think he'd be rightfully pissed.

Which relates to this scenario not at all, since you're currently USING your shit and not letting it sit for 8 god damn years.

But IF somebody did it, hey, it's your right to get pissed off if one of your sprites shows up in a game. Now, if you were designing your game in something other then RPGcreator I'm sure that I'd call you a game designer, but right now you're more something more of a... tweaker. Yeah, that's a good word. You're playing a game that's about making games, essentially. [PS It's okay, being a game designer is a really shitty job. Don't aspire to it.]

Edit: And I think he'd be incredibly pissed of someone made an Atomic Robo game without his permission and started profiting off it because that's a stupid example all together. You clearly lack any idea of what 'fanfiction' means and are confusing it with 'ripping off'.

http://fanfiction.net <-- There's fanfiction here.

I don't think "16 Bit Theatre" would be anything but idea theft.

[Locke cole]

I don't think "16 Bit Theatre" would be anything but idea theft.

I'll say!

That Captain SNES guy (http://www.captainsnes.com/2005/07/11/captain-snes-vs-16-bit-theatre-part-1/) worked hard on that crossover parody!

[bluestarultor]

See I was hoping you wouldn't continue this argument and just drop it. Now look what you've done. EvilNESS covered one angle, I'll cover the other.

Actual companies don't give two damns about code-theft, blues. Most companies don't HAVE unique code, it's just old code assembled in a new way. It's the Havok engine how many times over in every game? You think that every company is going to use the same engine in a unique way every time?

Ever wonder why the character models in Bionic Commando and X-Men Origins: Wolverine move in, essentially, the EXACT same way? Why they look so similar in motion and pose that they could be the identical model, reskinned?

Code is borrowed, recycled, reused over and over. Choice bits of code are given to publishers sometimes to be disseminated, too- I've played the middleman between a company and Nintendo trying to work out a minor motion bug. Even the Consoles have recycled code that's shared between companies.

Fair enough. I had that fed to me as an academic discussion, but it would require decompiling code anyway to find your own decompiled code in there, so it's not surprising that it's just academic.

And when I speak of "decompiling," Nik, what I mean is if someone were to take a program written by a competing company, run it through special software to reduce it back to the source code, and then take that source code to use in their own project without permission. NO code is original; that's why it's there. It provides a structure that allows instructions to be performed by the machine. What I'm talking about is if someone wrote a program before you to, say, play music, and you're going to write your own program to do the same thing, so you decompile their code, steal their engine for your own project, and then paint it up a bit differently without giving credit.

Which relates to this scenario not at all, since you're currently USING your shit and not letting it sit for 8 god damn years.

But IF somebody did it, hey, it's your right to get pissed off if one of your sprites shows up in a game. Now, if you were designing your game in something other then RPGcreator I'm sure that I'd call you a game designer, but right now you're more something more of a... tweaker. Yeah, that's a good word. You're playing a game that's about making games, essentially. [PS It's okay, being a game designer is a really shitty job. Don't aspire to it.]

Edit: And I think he'd be incredibly pissed of someone made an Atomic Robo game without his permission and started profiting off it because that's a stupid example all together. You clearly lack any idea of what 'fanfiction' means and are confusing it with 'ripping off'.

http://fanfiction.net <-- There's fanfiction here.

I don't think "16 Bit Theatre" would be anything but idea theft.

Nik, buddy, you're not giving me enough credit. At all. I'm writing my games all from scratch using tools that I've written myself and have developed a version 0.1 of a scripting language of my own design that will be interpreted in code that I will write myself. If I wanted to use RPG Maker or some crap, I could have probably been done with several of my projects by now. I'm not even using XNA.

Putting that aside, unless a Robo game would somehow interfere with Brian's own projects and were not distributed for free, he'd probably be less pissed than if someone started publishing comics using Robo or a thinly-disguised copy. Obviously, it's always better to ask permission before embarking.

I'll continue this later, but I have an appointment I need to get to for my classes.

Okay, I'm home now.

I know the difference between fanfiction and ripping something off, but I think it's just best at this point to point out that I agree with most of what you've said and this entire argument is probably because I'm still crappy at expressing myself. You've actually expressed a lot of my points better than I was able to.




Basically, a lot of my viewpoint boils down to this: there is a lot of untapped talent out there. I'd like to think I'm a part of it. There was a point where I was hoping to do fan-games of my own, and I know the excitement behind it. On the other hand, I realized that it's more trouble than it's worth and that I could express my talent with my own original work. I did dabble a bit in ROM hacking and RPG Maker, but I never got very far with any of it, mostly because it was tedious and restrictive and all sorts of other stuff. I'm sure there are programmers out there who are stunningly brilliant, but as I said, I find that doing fan games is misguided. I find it misguided because I realized I was misguided. Hacking a game is not going to net you a job. All the major work is already done for you. Maybe if you do a piece of original work, it's not going to make you famous, but at the same time, it shows a lot more of your abilities. It shows you can program an engine. It shows you can write an original story. It shows you can write new music. It shows you can design an interface and characters and items and a whole world from nothing. It shows you can do graphics well enough to express all that stuff.

That's why I call these people misguided at best. They really don't understand what employers want to see or what shows their skills. If you can show someone a fully-formed original game, they are going to see what you, or you and your team, are really capable of. It's overall a much better reflection on you to do your own work.

[Mirai Gen]

No, it really is not. The paragraph works EXACTLY the same way. It says nothing of why fangames are bad; it says everything of why hype for any game in general is bad. It is not a well constructed argument.
Oh bull.

Yes you can say 'just cause the original creator made it doesn't mean it's going to be good' but a guy who made three games before that were great is some pretty good legs to stand on compared to, "Some fans nobody's ever heard of are making a game hacking the original game's ROM and writing it themselves and since the first game - by completely different game designers - was good it probably will be!"

[Mike McC]

Oh bull.

Yes you can say 'just cause the original creator made it doesn't mean it's going to be good' but a guy who made three games before that were great is some pretty good legs to stand on compared to, "Some fans nobody's ever heard of are making a game hacking the original game's ROM and writing it themselves and since the first game - by completely different game designers - was good it probably will be!"You have completely missed the point of those statements.

I just used Bayonetta as it was a fresh example in my head. Would you like me to come up with some more examples? I can certainly try.

[Mirai Gen]

Maybe if you hadn't picked an awful example it would have been more clear?

The point was that fangames have no legs to stand on, so they keep going "Hey! Chrono Trigger, wooo, you like CT right? Well then like this!" Since it's made by fans and not by any actual game developer there's nothing there other than the spirit of the old game and the hope the fangame developers know what they're doing. And he's right - I just don't see the harm.

You compared hype built by a fancommunity to hype built by a respected game developer.

[Mike McC]

You compared hype built by a fancommunity to hype built by a respected game developer.Respected developers can still fail spectacularly, and many times do. Fan communities and projects can produce things like "There Will Be Brawl". There is no immutable reason to give one group any more merit, there is only a bias.

[Azisien]

Respected developers can still fail spectacularly, and many times do. Fan communities and projects can produce things like "There Will Be Brawl". There is no immutable reason to give one group any more merit, there is only a bias.

I dunno about that. Respected developers have at least gained some respect for something or another! We're being vague but, these developers tend to be run by professionals that are good at making games. Even if we take the industry as a whole, you'd probably have about 10% of games ever that are playable or better.

Fans and modding communities on the other hand take the Sperm Approach to making games. Which is kind of like how Koei makes games, except there's more fans.

[Sporticus]

Not until it's released it won't. Which was why I said hype period. You know, the period in which they hype up a game. Because it is an extended duration of time, that being what I meant by period, during which the game is not being actually experienced in any tangible way, but instead only enough that people might get excited for it, which is what hype is. As opposed to choosing the words in my posts completely at random.

Fans can be just as responsible for hype as the creators. When someone sends me a Youtube link talking about how awesome something looks, they are trying to build hype just the same as the creators are by putting that video up.

I'd probably still assume that the story would be complete and utter ass, but I'd think that the game creators were less lazy with the game itself, so there is that in their favor.

I've played this and it's nowhere near as good as you build it up to be. Part of the reason is that Sonic feels like he's out of control in a bad way.

You'll note the inclusion of such key words as "majority" and "most" in all my posts. It allows for outliers such as these. Not to say I've played this though. I'm not really interested in it.

Yes, because when you watch a trailer of a game before it's released and think it looks awesome, regardless of whether it's a fan game or not, you totally aren't judging a book on its cover. Totally.

So, what I'm getting is that Noncon just has a bug up his bum about people "having the balls" to make fan games.

Non, you remember when Sarah Palin was tagged as VP? You remember how, in her first speech, she denounced Hilary Clinton for LOOSING THE ELECTION? You're doing the same thing.

[Kim]

So, what I'm getting is that Noncon just has a bug up his bum about people "having the balls" to make fan games.

Non, you remember when Sarah Palin was tagged as VP? You remember how, in her first speech, she denounced Hilary Clinton for LOOSING THE ELECTION? You're doing the same thing.

That... That doesn't make any sense. Please make more sense.

[Yumil]

If you want to make a fangame to show how much you love the original, don't try to do a remake, rewrite, or anything like that. If you do any of that, you honestly think too much of yourself to make anything good. Why do you think you can do a better job than the original's creator...it just seems wrong to me.

No, if you want to do a fangame, make something original. Use your own characters, your own art, your own music, and your own story. The gameplay can be similar(gameplay isn't part of the copywrite:o), just as long as everything else is different. Throw in references fans of the original would get, and they'll know it's a homage.

Heck, look at Rosenkruez, it's got Mega Mans gameplay, throws references not only to Megaman but other games, and isn't using any Megaman resources(sure, some are close, but for the most part it's an original game). Rosenkruez is a true fan game.

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

You compared hype built by a fancommunity to hype built by a respected game developer.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/KneumaticPnight/Bitchadmikewilson.jpg

[bluestarultor]

So, what I'm getting is that Noncon just has a bug up his bum about people "having the balls" to make fan games.

Non, you remember when Sarah Palin was tagged as VP? You remember how, in her first speech, she denounced Hilary Clinton for LOOSING THE ELECTION? You're doing the same thing.

Sporty! Long time, no see! So let's get down to business.


Nonsie doesn't have a bug in his shorts because people "have the balls" to make a fan game. It's because they DON'T have the balls to make their own. Nonsie's argument is that they're standing on the backs of greater people who came before them, using their predecessors' work and fame to promote their own work where it's really not due. That they're nothing more than coattail-riders.

And to an extent, he's right. See my previous post. They're using the fame of the source material to try to be seen, whether by the source material's fanbase or by potential employers. Regardless of anything else, they are relying on the fame of another person's work to draw attention to their own. It would be like, say, doing an exact reproduction of the Mona Lisa in a larger picture, because everyone would love to see the Mona Lisa and they'll be looking at the rest of your work, too.

The thing is that USING the Mona Lisa just says you had a picture of the Mona Lisa and copied it. All the color and composition of the piece is already done for you, so you, yourself, don't have to figure out how to make the eyes appear to follow you. Just because it's included in your picture doesn't make the rest of your picture special. You could maybe have a person looking at it, but that person is likely to be very mundane and not really be the actual draw of the picture.

To really impress someone, you'd be better off painting your own picture to start with. It's braver, because you don't have an automatic draw, but it also lets your style and talent come through better, if you actually have any to show.

Basically, working without a net always reflects better on you. This applies to anything. It shows you don't have to rely on the work of others to prop you up and your work can then be judged on its own merits and quite possibly become the next standard to aspire to.

[Jagos]

Here's my entire issue in a nutshell. It's as if we have to ask Square for permission to enjoy a game in a different way. Sure, CE is a derivative work, done for free, at the person's expense of time and resources. Sure, Square is a bunch of soulless entities, sitting on the top of the mountain snubbing their noses at us small peasants who even think of having an idea that's close to their work. Sure, I can site the DMCA's lack of give in this regard, copyright law giving Square too much power, as well as the belief that Square isn't doing anything with the property but milking it unfairly.

It's their property, let them do what they want!
That's not the issue here. When can others have a say in what they like about a game? When can these fan boys, those rabid lovers of a game for complexity of story or gameplay, reveal their love to this company that isn't giving them an updated story, merely rehashes with little improvements?

Well, if they have this story, they can make their own!
Yep, they could. No doubt. Using a hack gives them a start. It already has an engine, story, characters, all which can be reinterpreted in a new way. Sure worked well for starmen.net and even getting me to play mother 3. Works well for Valve and having people forget that they flubbed Half Life when the community (http://www.blackmesasource.com/) can do better. Should they look into making a game? Yes. Maybe they can do it commercially. Or maybe the rules could change so derivative works didn't have to be destroyed because it's based off of other works.

If anything, I'd think it actually enriches a mythos surrounding a game, rather than taking away from it.

But if these guys wanted to work on it, they should work for Squeenix!

Whoa, calm down there. Firstly, these guys probably aren't all THAT great. Maybe they just wanted to reinterpret the story and have fun with it. Maybe they had some ideas that might not work with what Squeenix has cooking. If anything, I would have liked to see this game at 100% than someone arbitrarily kill it for a reason such as "HAAACKS". It drives a community apart. Why do I use Valve so much as an example?

Equalizer - Great weapon for soldier in TF2, created by someone outside of working for Valve.

Black Mesa - Not a Valve game, which people are looking forward to. Done out of love by the fans who liked the first game and thought they could do better than the port Valve came out with.

Let's not even start on Counter Strike's success based on modding Half Life back in the day.

Does Squeenix have their cake? Yep. Not gonna lie. Should they share the damn thing with their fans so they can enjoy it instead of their lawyers?

Sounds like a win-win if they did.

[bluestarultor]

Jagos:
I have to say that in a perfect world, every company would work like Valve and Microsoft. Yes, Microsoft ALSO has the good habit of taking on people who do good work with their systems. Sadly, this is not a perfect world.

See, I really feel for the people who have a story to tell. I have LOTS of stories to tell, and not all of them are my own originals. On the other hand, copyright law is a horrible monster at this point, and if you don't defend yours, you can lose it.

The fact of the matter is you DO have to ask Square to enjoy a game in a "different way." And I highly doubt anyone ever asked. If nothing else, you can pitch an idea, or find some way to show a company your collective interest in a new installment to a series. The worst they can say is no. It's a lot better than having things resort to "no, and delete all your hard work, blood, sweat, tears, and time."

Corporations are out to make money. Pure and simple. Some go about it different ways, but it's a universal truth of a corporation. They'd LOVE to make a product people will buy. By that logic, when someone else does it for them and starts handing it out, even for free, it could be seen as a threat.



I know I've argued a lot of angles in this thread, but there are a lot of good reasons these things happen. Ideally, there would be some way to get everyone a game they like, but nobody is working on the same page, here. There probably aren't very open lines of communication to big companies for this kind of thing, but that doesn't mean it's okay to assume the thing is in a bubble and do whatever you want, either. They DO notice stuff in the outside world. And it would be great if these kinds of projects could happen with some form of consent from corporations, but then you have all sorts of legal shit to deal with, and Square isn't even an American company, so God only knows how complicated that could get.

There are problems with the systems in place that need fixing if everyone is going to be happy. You'd need better lines of communication, better laws, etc. Those aren't in place at the moment, so it's harder for fans to be heard than it could be, harder to please the fans than it could be, and a lot of bad blood on both sides when shit hits the fan.




Actually, the people doing this particular project knew it could happen and were very polite about things. One of them even made an account here at the time to explain the situation and how everyone felt. The letter from Square was also very reasonable and polite, not at all threatening to read. It was all very much a "please stop - okay" sort of deal and the fans were really the ones who exploded. I just thought I'd mention that. For all the shit being flung at both sides, it's not like the corporations are evil and going to shoot your mom and eat a baby, and neither are the people doing these projects for the most part. There's just a bad public reaction from the outside when people all start in with the "but I could have had that!" mentality.

[Funka Genocide]

basic point is, if you didn't create something and nobody who did asked you to continue work on it, do something original.

Fan Fiction for profit (or notoriety) is a cop out because the fan base is built in. You didn't define your own audience, you didn't create your own story, you just picked up where someone else left off. You can call it an homage or a tribute or whatever, but if they tell you they don't want a tribute you stop.

Which it seems the dudes who worked on this project did, so I don't really understand the angst.

They're (Squeenix) still making games for tweens, the target audience today doesn't know what the fuck a Chrono Trigger is and doesn't care. More specifcally they're making games for japanese tweens, which I mean... who knows what they like. (apparently an awful lot of androgyny.)

[Mike McC]

You know, I've yet to explicitly state my full opinion on fan-made games in here (though it should be fairly self-explanitory at this point.

I am completely for them.

Yeah, sure, a good portion of them are lackluster or crappy, but, as I stated in an earlier post, so is most of everything. You just gotta be willing to dig to find those gems sometimes. And gems, there are.

I Wanna Be The Guy: The Movie: The Game is an excellent example of a fan game. It is a marvelous love letter to the 8-bit and 16-bit eras, and the the concept of 'Nintendo Hard'. Very well put together with a great sense of humor, if being a tad on the... sadistic side.

For a more traditional Romhack would be Mario Adventure. It's a brilliant Super Mario Bros. 3 hack that not only changes the levels, but significantly changes the game engine. It adds new power ups, changing weather, a modified level select system with the ability to revisit finished lkevels (which you may need to do to find the key), a shop system, even the power-up switching system from Super Mario World is there.

The other side of Romhacks, the full conversion, you have Dragoon X Omega II. This is an utterly fantastic total conversion of the original Final Fantasy with a nice story and challenging gameplay (since you are always a party of just one person). Completely custom graphics, and music too, I believe. It is just built on the Final Fantasy engine.

Hell, even the Moother 3 translation was a ROMhack, as extensive modification of the game code was needed to get the script to work without cataclysmically crashing the game.

Super Metroid: Redesign is fantastic if you want to push your limits and have mastered the original.

La Mulana is a love letter to the MSX.

The list can go on.

Really, some of the reinterpretations som of these creators put into recrafting a game is fantastic, and being able to play these well crafted levels in a setting I know and love is just wonderful.

I'm just willing to sort through the quagmire, as I am with a lot of things.

[Krylo]

Don't we do this like once every couple of months?

I see all the same people are making all the same arguments as last time (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=35445), and the time before (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=34601).

Glad to know we've all still firmly got our lips planted on the ass of Corporate America and their attempts to destroy all semblance of fairness in copyright since Disney died. (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=952927&postcount=24)

I'd hate to see something change.

[bluestarultor]

Don't we do this like once every couple of months?

I see all the same people are making all the same arguments as last time (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=35445), and the time before (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=34601).

Glad to know we've all still firmly got our lips planted on the ass of Corporate America and their attempts to destroy all semblance of fairness in copyright since Disney died. (http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showpost.php?p=952927&postcount=24)

I'd hate to see something change.

Well, it's great to see a ton of people still have their asses on the other side of the fence and don't give a shit about property rights or the entire point of why copyright law was created, i.e. to protect artists from people slavering to cash in on their work. God help us, the little guy's work is actually PROTECTED from giant-ass corporations who'd steal his shit and re-sell it in a heartbeat.

See? Goes both ways.




Now I'm done being nasty and would just like to state that the system is, in fact, horribly broken and in need of reform, but at least it's broken for everyone. If these same people would go and do an original game and have it under copyright, if Square would try to use their stuff, THEY would be in the wrong, and the paperwork would be there to prove it. Maybe Square could be total asshats and use their superior firepower to drag it out, but I really don't think it would be easy to argue the case, and I doubt Square, as a professional company, would do that kind of thing to start with.

[Kim]

Yeah, that's the reason I don't want people ripping off shit. It's because I care about the feelings of Squeenix. Obviously.

[Krylo]

Well, it's great to see a ton of people still have their asses on the other side of the fence and don't give a shit about property rights or the entire point of why copyright law was created, i.e. to protect artists from people slavering to cash in on their work. God help us, the little guy's work is actually PROTECTED from giant-ass corporations who'd steal his shit and re-sell it in a heartbeat.

See? Goes both ways.

Not really.

Don't make me go and repost all the posts I already made in response to you, Blues.

You didn't walk away smelling like roses the LAST two times you made this argument, why would you expect things to change this time?

I'm just sore, tired, and feel like shit. I don't want to go into it again, so I'm taking the lazy way out.

Edit: You too, Nonsie.

Edit 2: Your argument is even less cohesive than Blues, and relies entirely on us hating fan work because it obviously sucks or something stupid like that, even though the last time you were arguing in defense of shit like Star Fox Adventures and this time you're arguing in defense of shit like Chrono Cross and the CT DS Remake. You might have a point if you were arguing for companies producing GOOD GAMES with their material, but I could shit on a plate, and write Chrono Trigger on the pile of feces and still have produced a better game with the material than Square has done in 15 years.

[bluestarultor]

If I were worried about coming out smelling like a rose, I wouldn't have joined this conversation. Nobody does in these things. Yes, there is abuse of the system, but the drum section you so love to point out happened during a phase of change. It's just like composers didn't used to have their own names on the music they wrote. Just because somebody pulls a fast one and does something nobody has ever done before does not mean the laws do not apply to everyone. Want to fight it? Go copyright yourself some seeds. That's the biggest abuse of the system at the moment and I'm sure the farmers would find some way to repay you for anything you can do against the big businesses there.

As I said, copyright law is broken as shit, but at least its relatively STABLE and broken as shit at the moment, and it could definitely be worse. We can argue about copyright law until we're all blue in the face, but that doesn't change what it actually does, which is to protect the rights of the creators, regardless of who they are, and a bit too well for the comfort of most, myself included.



Edit: You know what, why the hell hasn't this been locked yet? Let's all give it ten minutes for everyone to get in their last words, then I'm finding the nearest online mod. Ten minutes plus however long it takes to lock should be sufficient for closing arguments.

[Kim]

You too, Nonsie.

My primary argument this entire thread, assuming I've read my own posts correctly, is that I have no faith in the fan community nor in fan fiction. That I am annoyed at the built in fanbase that fan games try to take advantage of, without establishing any cause to look forward to the game other than the source material. That I would prefer that someone try and impress me with something that they themselves put together, rather than taking another student's art project and coloring inside the lines. It has nothing to do with the morality of whether using someone else's work is okay, and everything to do with the side effects of confining yourself to the limits of someone else's work. If you don't want to argue the point again, don't step into the argument again. Don't walk in simply to insult people and then bitch that people aren't agreeing with you.

EDIT: Honestly, I'd prefer Square Enix left Chrono Trigger alone, just as much as the fans. The same argument would apply if Nomura decided he wanted to do a sequel to Vagrant Story. Moreso, because Nomura's original work makes me more certain it'd be bad. Vaguely similar though.

[Ryong]

Moreso, because Nomura's original work makes me more certain it'd be bad. Vaguely similar though.

Hey, the first Kingdom Hearts. Hey, TWEWY. I'm not saying I want him to make a sequel to VS, but I'm not saying EVERYTHING he produces is shit.

[Kim]

Hey, the first Kingdom Hearts. Hey, TWEWY. I'm not saying I want him to make a sequel to VT, but I'm not saying EVERYTHING he produces is shit.

The only thing I can find that Nomura had a role of with TWEWY was being one of two character designers. KH is becoming increasingly terrible. I have little faith in the man of late.

[Ryong]

You might have a point if you were arguing for companies producing GOOD GAMES with their material, but I could shit on a plate, and write Chrono Trigger on the pile of feces and still have produced a better game with the material than Square has done in 15 years.

Goddamnit, I know you people hate Chrono Cross but daaaaamn. It's so awesome to be the only person in NPF whose feelings for Chrono Cross aren't that of complete hate. I like the game. I played Chrono Trigger after playing CC and I liked it just as much. I played CTDS and hated how the new quests, while adding some fun flavour to the game rely extensively on backtracking - but the retranslation, "main issue of the game", is by no means bad.

But, seriously, how many of you would attempt murder on the makers if given half the chance?

The only thing I can find that Nomura had a role of with TWEWY was being one of two character designers. KH is becoming increasingly terrible. I have little faith in the man of late.

Ah well. At least the gameplay would be good. He appears to have a tendency to add too many things on sequels and prequels... I guess he could remake VT a la Lufia's remake, but he may find a way to change the plot, somehow.

[Mike McC]

The only thing that can make this thread worse at this point is heaping Chrono Cross on top of it.

So please.

Refrain.

Fo' the chillin's.

[bluestarultor]

The only thing that can make this thread worse at this point is heaping Chrono Cross on top of it.

So please.

Refrain.

Fo' the chillin's.

We already took care of that one recently. ;)

[Ryong]

The only thing that can make this thread worse at this point is heaping Chrono Cross on top of it.

So please.

Refrain.

Fo' the chillin's.

I'm not the one with an unbridled hate towards a company, a community or any of the like.

I'm not sure if this is me and my friends or a Brazilian thing maybe, but we don't care about games so darn much it'd cause riots. MST3K Mantra comes to mind. Sometimes, you don't know everything, sometimes things are not set in stone in a story, sometimes shit happens. Ignore them and have a good time, instead of raging because x made y and y is so atrocious that we should kill all who work at x with fire.

[Mirai Gen]

Just going to throw out there that I'm all in favor of fan games, as well, but frequently the kind of ass-tarded dribble that gets smacked onto the screen of Newgrounds is what makes me believe that a company who actually makes real games with paid employees and designers has a much better chance of making a game than a few men who happened to salute the Epoch flying overhead. I don't agree with Noncon but I can certainly understand where he's coming from.

Just wanted to clear that up.

[Mike McC]

Just going to throw out there that I'm all in favor of fan games, as well, but frequently the kind of ass-tarded dribble that gets smacked onto the screen of Newgrounds is what makes me believe that a company who actually makes real games with paid employees and designers has a much better chance of making a game than a few men who happened to salute the Epoch flying overhead. I don't agree with Noncon but I can certainly understand where he's coming from.

Just wanted to clear that up.Newgrounds is the breeding grounds for the lowest common denominator of flash. Finding anything good out of there is like trying to find the grain of white sand in a truck full of kinda beige-ish sand.

Though, there have been good things (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3226531) to come of them.

But yeah, it's best to not look at all the bad out there, because it can make anything look like a depressing wasteland devoid of talent and intellegence, and instead be an optimist and look for those gems.I'm not the one with an unbridled hate towards a company, a community or any of the like.Well, neither am I! I am Love. We should get along just peachy, you and I.

[Grand Master Kickface]

My view is this: as long as fan work doesn't make any monetary profit and that it clearly makes itself known as a fan work separate from the original, then there isn't any harm. You might think that it hurts the integrity of the original if they do a bad job, but it's only affecting your conceptualization of the property: the original work has always remained the same no matter how much derivative work is produced. Fan work can even make a series more profitable by stimulating interest and keeping it culturally relevant.

The act of creation is simply putting different ideas together. That's it. Everything that is created carries the essence of what came before it filtered through the creator's own vision. Even the most innovative game you can think of owes its existence to something else. The World Ends With You? A combination of the youth culture at the time and putting twists on standard RPG tropes. Dragon Quest? An Ultima recreation within the confines of the NES hardware. Ultima? Motifs from games like Dungeons and Dragons brought into a computer game. Dungeons and Dragons? An adaptation of miniature wargames within a setting meshed together from several older fantasy sources. Dragons themselves? Inspired by real-life animals.

Everyone has a fundamental need to create. As long as the derivative works follow the aforementioned guidelines, it's arrogant for businesses to interrupt this sacred process out of misplaced fear that it will cut into their profits. How large would the fan base of Touhou Project be if it weren't for IOSYS' rearrangements? Even more preposterously, what if the creators of Vocaloid prohibited their users from making any songs with the software? Would their icons like Hatsune Miku still have the same popularity?

Which leads me to another point: it is the exchange of ideas between individuals that sparks the process of creation. Creators can be inspired by the ideas present in fan works and use them to expand upon their original series. MMORPGs almost necessitate feedback to make constant little changes to balance the game. Hacks like Kaizo Mario and Automatic Mario gave us amazing new perspectives about the dynamics present within Mario games. Stamping out any and all fan creations only serves to weaken the longevity of your own creation as you have less sources to draw new, constant inspiration from.

So, to apply this to this specific situation, Square Enix is shooting themselves in the foot with decisions like these. Chrono Trigger may never be as lucrative a franchise as Final Fantasy, but at least some fans out there are keeping the passion for the original creation alive in their own way. Let the fans enjoy the works you create!

[Mirai Gen]

Though, there have been good things (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3226531) to come of them.
I'm surprised this wasn't a link to either Alien Homonid or Castle Crashers.

[Mike McC]

I'm surprised this wasn't a link to either Alien Homonid or Castle Crashers.I think they were brought up in the thread at some point, but the focus was mainly on terrible terrible games/movies. Except Miami Shark. Which is awesome.

[synkr0nized]

A few things:

-- Having an opinion and wishing to express it should not be confused with being an ass.

-- Likewise, disagreeing with someone is not grounds to behave childishly.

-- "I don't want to join this argument but here's my post about it anyway" is pretty lame.


Maybe you guys should stop trying to talk about Chrono Trigger ever.

[Grand Master Kickface]

-- "I don't want to join this argument but here's my post about it anyway" is pretty lame.


Maybe you guys should stop trying to talk about Chrono Trigger ever.

Alright, I guess it was kind of hypocritical. I just didn't want to get dragged into the tug-of-war match. I edited my prior post.

[Krylo]

Just a reminder to keep it civil and a bit more mature.But I dun wannnnnnaaaaaaaa

Fo' srs though.

Maybe you guys should stop trying to talk about Chrono Trigger ever.How about instead of not talking about CT we stop having the same, exact, right down to the posters, argument about fan games every couple of months?

It's pretty tiring.

I apologize for the fact that I pulled the 'I don't want to argue but here's my post anyway' card, though it was really more, 'I'm in ridiculous amounts of pain right now and can't be bothered typing up the exact same thing I've typed up multiple times in recent history again in response to the exact same things that Blues and Nonsie have typed up in recent history, so instead I will link those arguments and let people read the old ones.'

I also didn't mean to start the CC thing all over again.





ALSO, I had this post all ready earlier and then there was an internal server error, that lasted for something like a half hour, and I went to sleep for awhile, due to the whole in pain thing. Here it is.

but the drum section you so love to point out happened during a phase of change. It's just like composers didn't used to have their own names on the music they wrote.No, it is nothing like that at all. It's more like composers used to give up copyright when they died, but now whomever was writing their paycheck gets to hold onto their music until the company goes under centuries from now, which completely strangles the creative process for new artistic endeavors, as that ALL works of art are derivative works.

As I said, copyright law is broken as shit, but at least its relatively STABLE and broken as shit at the moment, and it could definitely be worse.Except it isn't stable and is actively being made worse daily as corporations use their legal teams to fight for longer and longer extensions of copyright protections.

We can argue about copyright law until we're all blue in the face, but that doesn't change what it actually does, which is to protect the rights of the creators, regardless of who they are, and a bit too well for the comfort of most, myself included.If protect the rights of the creators you mean, protect the rights of the corporation that employs the creators, and treat it as though it, itself, is an individual capable of holding copyright protection.

I think Snake has argued enough all over these forums for us to know why THAT'S a bad thing in more ways than just stifling creativity and artistic endeavors.


And now I shall reply to things since then:


Goddamnit, I know you people hate Chrono Cross but daaaaamn. It's so awesome to be the only person in NPF whose feelings for Chrono Cross aren't that of complete hate. I like the game. I played Chrono Trigger after playing CC and I liked it just as much. I played CTDS and hated how the new quests, while adding some fun flavour to the game rely extensively on backtracking - but the retranslation, "main issue of the game", is by no means bad.


Fine fine, I'll give you ten years in the interest of not arguing over CC. I won't give you CT: DS, though, on the basis that even if you loved it and it was the best port of all time, it was still just a port and not any kind of original creation.

Don't walk in simply to insult people and then bitch that people aren't agreeing with you.I'm not bitching that people don't agree with me.

I'm bitching that the same people are making exactly the same arguments which they had thrown back at them multiple times in the past until they backed off and generally admitted their mistakes, for the third time in a row.

It's like, ok, it wouldn't bother me if in the last few Discussions hadn't ended with Blues continually backpedaling and then he came in here to make the same arguments, but here we are.

I'm getting old and grumpy and losing my ability to repeat myself over and over again.

Though, I guess, at least he's admitting that copyright law needs to be rewritten now, so maybe something DID sink in. That gives me some hope.

Also: is that I have no faith in the fan community nor in fan fiction.

What, exactly, is 8-bit theater if not a giant well produced FF1 fan fiction? Yet here you are on its forums.

As I said to Blues, all art is derivative work. This is a well known fact in the writing/music/art communities. The only difference with 'fan works' is that they are more derivative than usual.

Further, spend any time talking to a half way decent art/writing/music teacher and they will tell you that often your best creativity can come out when working within constraints--whether the constraints of a medium, artificial constraints placed on a work (like you can't use your favorite color), or the constraints of working within an already established universe.

Your argument here just falls apart ALL OVER THE PLACE if you spend five seconds to give it a critical look through the eyes of anything other than knee jerk reactionism over 'zomg fan-fic sucks!'.

[Ryong]

Fine fine, I'll give you ten years in the interest of not arguing over CC. I won't give you CT: DS, though, on the basis that even if you loved it and it was the best port of all time, it was still just a port and not any kind of original creation.

I never said I loved it. It's just that I liked the new quests but they have far too much backtracking after a certain point and that the retranslation which everyone was bitching about isn't bad at all. Also, I never did play the PSX version for more than the first time you find Ayla, so seeing anime cutscenes was pretty great... Specially the one before you fight Magus.

[Kim]

What, exactly, is 8-bit theater if not a giant well produced FF1 fan fiction? Yet here you are on its forums.

Yeah, you're right. It's not like I said that there are examples of fanfiction not sucking, or stated that part of the reason fan games bother me usually isn't replicated by other mediums, and I certainly haven't stated anywhere on NPF forums that 8-Bit is my least favorite of Brian's works. If any of those things had happened, though, gee, that would imply that I think fanfiction can be good, and that so can fan games, but that I generally find them less interesting than original works. Of course, that would be crazy.

[Krylo]

that would imply that I think fanfiction can be good, and that so can fan games

Then, hey, gee, maybe you shouldn't be flipping a nut all over every thread about a fan game about how fan games all must be terrible, and therefore MUST be C&D'd?

[Kim]

Then, hey, gee, maybe you shouldn't be flipping a nut all over every thread about a fan game about how fan games all must be terrible?

Fan projects are more often than not terrible. There are exceptions of really exceptional fan works, but the majority aren't any good. The built in fanbase that will become interested in a fan project for seemingly no other reason than the source material annoys me. The people trying to take advantage of that built in fanbase by not providing any reason to believe the product will be good other than what it's based on annoy me. These two problems are much more prevalent for fan games, because fan games, unlike a comic, picture, or short story, have a hype period. I've stated that if people were more critical of fan games prior to release, I'd probably be less annoyed. I've stated if the creators had put out an original work before hand, giving us a reason to think the fan game would be good (assuming the original work is of course) other than what it's based on, I'd probably be less annoyed. If when these games got C&D'd I didn't have to listen to "Well Valve hired the guys who made Counterstrike! The Crimson Echoes guys hacked a SNES ROM Squeenix should totally hire them!", then I would probably be less annoyed.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with what I've said there.

EDIT: I didn't say must. I said that I'm happy when they are, because I'd like to think that makes them less likely to happen, thereby sparing me the annoyances I've mentioned above.

[Jagos]

Noncon, your entire posts near the beginning read that you abhor any type of fanfiction. It's as if no one can can have a derivative work in any type of game, book, or media because it almost automatically sucks. The other part of your argument is the very fact that if they came up with something original you would respect them more, even as you say it may suck.

-Edit- I still haven't heard word of Card Wars Saga. That's some good hype right there I guess...

If when these games got C&D'd I didn't have to listen to "Well Valve hired the guys who made Counterstrike! The Crimson Echoes guys hacked a SNES ROM Squeenix should totally hire them!", then I would probably be less annoyed.

That's reading my post entirely wrong. It's a scenario that would have been a far better option than "release the hounds" which Square did. The point I believe you're missing is that Square should try ways to get their community involved rather than alienate themselves and get "high and mighty" because they're the developers and only they know best.

[Krylo]

Here's the issue, let's say they make it and it sucks (as it probably will, I agree).

A few people lose like... 20 minutes of time downloading it and playing it for a bit and realizing it sucks.

This is basically of no consequence to anyone, so why care?

If they make it and it's good, against all odds, there's another fun/playable game on the market.


So basically you have two outcomes. One is zero sum, the other is a plus at no cost to anyone.

So why, in the world, would you want to kill it because it will probably be zero sum?


Further: You don't have to listen to the fanbase. God knows I don't.

You don't see me all up all over the forums saying that TTGL/Dr. Who should be killed forevers because nothing with that much hype from that many nerds has ever been that good, do you?

You didn't see me calling for Bayonetta to be cancelled because I thought it would suck and the hype was over the top before it came out, did you? I mean, I said it would probably suck and I wouldn't play it (as I haven't), but that was it.

Just because you hate the hype is absolutely no reason to hope for a game to get C&D'd.

It's just selfish to want something dead in the water just so that you don't have to hear about it.

This is why I said your argument is less cohesive than Blues's. At least Blues had moral outrage--however misplaced--at his side. He's arguing because he thinks the law needs be upheld and these companies have these rights. He's arguing because he wants protection to still be there for the little guys when he tries to release his own games. I don't AGREE with his arguments because of my views on copyright law, but they are an argument I can respect (beyond the whole, third times the charm, thing).

Your argument, however, comes off as little more than throwing a temper tantrum because too many people are enjoying something they SHOULDN'T.

That is what is wrong with what you've said there.

Maybe I'm MISSING something, here. But really, Nonsie, that's what you've been repeating. The hype pisses you off, so you're glad the game got killed.

[EVILNess]

Here's the issue, let's say they make it and it sucks (as it probably will, I agree).

A few people lose like... 20 minutes of time downloading it and playing it for a bit and realizing it sucks.

This is basically of no consequence to anyone, so why care?

There is a consequence here. Remember what I said earlier about damaging the integrity of the IP? Well, if it sucks it could theoretically damage a potential future buyer's image of the characters and series. That's why people get all butthurt about fan depictions of their characters. They rarely jive with the way the comapny wants them perceived.

Therefore, they take action to protect the integrity of their intellectual property.

Not necessarily an attack on you, just pointing out how this whole copyright thing works from a legal view.

[Krylo]

There is a consequence here. Remember what I said earlier about damaging the integrity of the IP? Well, if it sucks it could theoretically damage a potential future buyer's image of the characters and series. That's why people get all butthurt about fan depictions of their characters. They rarely jive with the way the comapny wants them perceived.

Therefore, they take action to protect the integrity of their intellectual property.

Not necessarily an attack on you, just pointing out how this whole copyright thing works from a legal view.

Yeah, which would be valid if the legality of copyright ever entered Noncon's arguments.

To see my arguments on THIS you can look at my discussions with Blues over the last few threads.

Or the cliff notes version: Copyright law has been artificially extended, rewrote, and altered to something that no longer has anything more than a passing resemblance to what it once was. This is, emphatically, a bad thing for any kind of artistic endeavor as that all works are derivative. Ergo, said laws can, frankly, kiss my ass.

Legal isn't the same as ethical, and though copyright laws are perfectly LEGAL they are about as far removed from ethical as one can get at this stage in the game.

This isn't about the 'internet's culture of self entitlement', either. This is about the way the creative process works, the way copyright laws USED to be written, and the ACTUAL reason that copyright laws ever existed in this country. Pro-tip: It was to protect the consumer by ensuring new inventions and artworks were made--it wasn't to protect the intellectual property of corporate monsters.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm very late to this but I'm totally in Krylo's camp here.
See my mom is a professional author- her living comes from selling books. I spent a lot of time growing up with the people copyright laws are supposedly protecting. They all unanimously denounce them because they are bullshit and are designed solely to make companies more money. They destroy creativity and cooperation and do not benefit artiists.
These aren't super-rich mega authors either, they are breadline- need every cent they can get. And copyright laws fuck them up the ass.

[bluestarultor]

I'd just like to point out I largely agree with you on copyright law, Krylo, as I've said a ton in this thread. It's VERY abusable, especially if you're the first to do something, like Trump copyrighting "you're fired." Or if there simply aren't sane provisions for something, like big seed companies copyrighting seeds they find in archives. Frankly, I hold the belief that language and natural resources should be off limits just as a start to the problems with the law. Also all the Mickey Mouse laws. It really shouldn't be so hard to put in a provision that if the creator or designated party is still using something, it should still be protected, plus a small grace period of maybe five years, without extending copyright indefinitely.

I really do dislike these arguments, as well, possibly as much as you do, because people do have very firm opinions on the matter. And I apologize for snapping at you back there.

[EVILNess]

I'm not saying that they are fair or anything, I'm just trying to stay neutral in a discussion on a forum and I saw a question and decided to answer it, but honestly I do wholeheartedly believe that the internet as a culture has gotten to the point where we feel entitled to things we aren't.

[Krylo]

honestly I do wholeheartedly believe that the internet as a culture has gotten to the point where we feel entitled to things we aren't.

You can believe that, but your kids aren't going to know what a mix tape is, unless they're 'music pirates'. Le Gasp.

Your kids will never play Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 or any of the other classics of our era, unless they are 'video game pirates' because they will never fall into public domain.

There IS no public domain anymore. There used to be. Used to be a time when falling into public domain was the norm.

That time is long gone.

I mean, maybe some people don't understand what that means? Well, let me put it this way, then: If Shakespeare had been born into a culture with our copyright laws, none of us would have ever read (or seen) Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet. If Johann Von Goethe had, we'd have no idea what the Damnation of Faust was. Things that don't fall into public domain die.

Works that have derived heavily from each, or even copied them except for updated settings (such as Romeo + Juliet, which was fantastic), could never have existed.

Most modern music couldn't exist if the Amen Beat had been copyrighted and enforced.

Modern copyright laws are killing artistic integrity and the creation of new works--and the 'internet's culture of self entitlement' is, frankly, the only thing that is actively fighting them.

[Mirai Gen]

Hey Noncon, just going to throw out there but this--
In truth I'm probably a little harsh on them and need to cut back.
--is probably true.

Your kids will never play Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 or any of the other classics of our era, unless they are 'video game pirates' because they will never fall into public domain.
This is mostly because in the age of digital distribution companies are feeling more and more entitled to property they own in the pursuit of money. This kind of philosophy doesn't quite hold up nowadays, especially with stuff like re-releases and console ports and VC/Live Arcade.

I'm not saying you're not right about the rest...but saying that pirates are entitled to stealing SNES games is a bit of a stretch.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I don't see why it's a stretch at all

Pretty much all the best pieces of art and literature the world has ever produced were adaptions of something else, many of which would have been shut down today. Artists BENEFIT by being able to use other people's work to enhance their own. Copyright benefits nobody except the shareholders of large companies.

[Krylo]

In addition to what SMB said, as the whole "Art builds on the past" thing has been part of my argument all along:
This is mostly because in the age of digital distribution companies are feeling more and more entitled to property they own in the pursuit of money. This kind of philosophy doesn't quite hold up nowadays, especially with stuff like re-releases and console ports and VC/Live Arcade.

I'm not saying you're not right about the rest...but saying that pirates are entitled to stealing SNES games is a bit of a stretch.

Thing is, will they still be re-releasing Chrono Trigger and Earthbound in 20 years? 40?

If it was public domain you can be certain SOMEONE would be.

As it stands, I can be pretty certain that, no, no they won't be re-releasing these games for the next generation or the generation after.

Edit: I'm not necessarily saying that they are entitled to those titles RIGHT NOW, but they never will be entitled as per current law, and there is a point where they certainly should be.

Edit 2: Though I do have to ask, does the VC have CT without the DS additions to the game? As in the original SNES cart version? 'cause if not, then I'd say the pirates are entitled to it already, as it's the only way they can get the version they want.

[Archbio]

There IS no public domain anymore. There used to be. Used to be a time when falling into public domain was the norm.

Disney is an ingrate.

[bluestarultor]

Disney is an ingrate.

I can't help but feel just replacing all the crap with a "still using it" clause would make things a lot simpler, shorter, and more beneficial to everyone.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

How would that even work? Sounds pretty nonsense to me.

[Mike McC]

Fan projects are more often than not terrible. There are exceptions of really exceptional fan works, but the majority aren't any good.As I've stated before, this is a pretty shoddy reason to hate a whole creative field, because honestly, it can be applied to many things. Let's wander into the realm of example for a bit shall we?

Look at television today. I'm sure you, like so many other disillusioned internet nerds, see very little of worth out there in the wasteland of broadcast and cable television. I know I certainly do. Does this mean that television as a whole is absolutely terrible? Why, heavens no! I mean, for me, I still greatly enjoy things like House, Psych, The Daily Show, The Colbert Report, and The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson. And even if everything switched over to On Demand or Internet Broadcast, you'd still be looking at the same ratios of good to bad. You just need to spend a little time to decide whether or not something is worth further time. You gain nothing by just dismissing an entire umbrella as out of hand, and you may very well be losing good fun times. These two problems are much more prevalent for fan games, because fan games, unlike a comic, picture, or short story, have a hype period.I think you are sadly mistaken here. In fact, if someone popular in a fandom is writing a multi-part story, or someone is making a series of fanarts, or a comic, there may very well be a hype period. It just spreads further with a game. This seems to hold more for professional video games than other media forms as well, at least on the Internet.I've stated that if people were more critical of fan games prior to release, I'd probably be less annoyed.You probably need to be looking in different places for the criticisms. But, they are most probably always there.I've stated if the creators had put out an original work before hand, giving us a reason to think the fan game would be good (assuming the original work is of course) other than what it's based on, I'd probably be less annoyed.As stated before, everything anymore is fairly derivitive. However, many creators, writers, artists often start out doing these fan fictions, fan art, and fan games. It not only gives them something they are fairly confident about where they want to go with it, it also gives them essential practice in building the skills that will help them in future, more original endeavors. Sometimes you just ned to have a little faith in that they may go on to produce an original game. They might just need to take it one step at a time.

Just felt these were a few points that needed addressing. Hopefully I didn't type it out for nothing.

[Jagos]

I can't help but feel just replacing all the crap with a "still using it" clause would make things a lot simpler, shorter, and more beneficial to everyone.

Disney would still be up in arms. You realize how many movies they have in their vault, released at certain intervals to ensure they are the only ones to continue to have a monopoly on their own interpretations of classic stories? Sucks but it's true.

Basically, a lot of my viewpoint boils down to this: there is a lot of untapped talent out there. I'd like to think I'm a part of it. There was a point where I was hoping to do fan-games of my own, and I know the excitement behind it. On the other hand, I realized that it's more trouble than it's worth and that I could express my talent with my own original work. I did dabble a bit in ROM hacking and RPG Maker, but I never got very far with any of it, mostly because it was tedious and restrictive and all sorts of other stuff. I'm sure there are programmers out there who are stunningly brilliant, but as I said, I find that doing fan games is misguided. I find it misguided because I realized I was misguided. Hacking a game is not going to net you a job. All the major work is already done for you. Maybe if you do a piece of original work, it's not going to make you famous, but at the same time, it shows a lot more of your abilities. It shows you can program an engine. It shows you can write an original story. It shows you can write new music. It shows you can design an interface and characters and items and a whole world from nothing. It shows you can do graphics well enough to express all that stuff.

That's why I call these people misguided at best. They really don't understand what employers want to see or what shows their skills. If you can show someone a fully-formed original game, they are going to see what you, or you and your team, are really capable of. It's overall a much better reflection on you to do your own work.
Yeah, I didn't quite get to this as I should have. As I've stated, it's not necessarily about netting a job with a company.

But I don't think anyone has quite understood what it means to be a fan. It means you're showing why you like a certain game. You'll meet the authors, you'll create fan-fiction of some sort, or you'll be more casual about it and enjoy the game as it stands, talking about it on the net. All are valid. Maybe these guys and girls aren't confident enough in their skills to go all out in making their own game. But their devotion is just the same. We've had a lot of different communities that have thrived because of fans and publishers meeting and enjoying success. Capcom with their Street Fighter success (http://ocremix.org/info/OC_ReMix:_Super_Street_Fighter_II_Turbo_HD_Remix_O fficial_Soundtrack) along with TF2.

Just to also say: Oda (One Piece) started out as the assistant of Watsuki (Rurouni Kenshin). Should he be sued by his former mentor for learning pacing or how to draw? Let's not forget that Oda loved Toriyama who made DBZ such a spectacular work, that it inspired a LOT of people to go into manga. We do a lot for our entertainment. We express ourselves in new ways all the time. I just don't believe a company should have so much say in what's right and wrong in a work. It ain't just theirs.

Let's be frank that these guys all need a starting place. Sometimes it's with the engines, processes, and products that came before. If Doom hadn't come along, there may not have been a Quake. If there were no quake, there'd be no Half Life. Seriously, if I think about all the games, engines and such that were based on other products (and you didn't have to pay so much for the damn things...) it is far more prevalent than the games made by fans that aren't as prestigious. It's a foot in the door, which I seriously think would be far more for these hackers than an "OMG, BAN" which some of the big boys are tossing their way.

Modern copyright laws are killing artistic integrity and the creation of new works--and the 'internet's culture of self entitlement' is, frankly, the only thing that is actively fighting them.
See also, the reason we can't get Mother 3 with the mixing of music and Itoi's sheer stubbornness to change one thing of his artistic design (http://cruiseelroy.net/2009/01/mother-3-musical-allusions/). Great game, copyright law destroys any chance of it coming here.

Blues, seriously, the law needs to be changed. Holding up to be an absolute value is defeating the spirit of what the law is supposed to uphold: giving the little guys, like me and you, a fair shot against those that came before. So far, the main people benefitting from the law are the ones with an army of lawyers. It's been close to 10 years since the DMCA was enabled. The consequences of it are endless.

If we had Consumer's rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Media_Consumers'_Rights_Act), maybe I wouldn't be so far against the DMCA. I accept that someone will probably take my work and use it in a way that I might not like. I'll go after that person as need be. Same as Rich Burlew with Order of the Stick or Square. But there's a line to be drawn when it's something that a fan is doing that shows their dedication to something they liked. It's almost as if we're just supposed to give them money, then they say "Thanks suckers, bye!"

[Jagos]

I'm laying the politics down in this post. Whether we agree on fan made game or not, anything after this is not worth arguing. We've had four pages of fighting plus two previous threads. I'm just going to agree to disagree from now on.

Five years. A long time to work at making tilesets, creating stories, working with an engine, and making things work in a particular manner. A lot of work went into this game and the youtube videos showed that a LOT of work went into dealing with loopholes, plotholes, and the few donut holes that came up because of indirect ties with Cross.

As I watched with a critical eye, I literally couldn't stop pressing the next damn video. At 10 minutes apiece and 90 videos, it was a LOT of story for one game. The characters were handled exceptionally well and *gasp* Crono could talk. With so much going on, what concerned me with this project is what this three man group could possibly do that could be so... worthy of a stop.

Guys and Girls, Crono Break could possibly come out tomorrow. But I'm convinced Crimson Echoes is the true segueway into Cross. That's the work of a craftsman. This may have been fan made, but there were very few times the characters were flat. Even Crono had his own big damn heroes moment. The world was expanded on immensely, bordering on insanity (see also the Viper Clan saga ~40 chaps into it) Most of the music in the walkthrough was selected with a great feel for the atmosphere and the minigames as well as the main story were decently paced. Yes, there were times it was too fast or too slow (Marle solo, I &%$(*& hated those times) but most of the big answers needed from both CT, the DS remake, and Cross were answered without convoluting the plot too much.

I now have a reason to get Cross and play it. I have a reason to see Schala and look into the Kid Project. This game/video even has a great theme that I don't think even the original CT touched upon:

Your actions have their own consequences. Even though you feel you're doing the right thing, it can still have effects that are far reaching. It's ironic that this was shut down. It would have been a great game to play.

As it stands as a walkthrough and simply because of the story it entails, this is worthy of a once over at expanding the mythos of Crono Trigger as well as (hopefully) inspiring other writers or gamers to try to tell a similar story.

9.5 out of 10
-.5 because of a few scenes that I didn't agree with.
Also, there's one small missing thread that I've asked about but it's nothing major that probably would have taken away from the enjoyment of this game/movie.