Shitty teachers fired, Obama approves; people are surprised

[Mirai Gen]

This just in - not doing your job means you get fired. Who knew? (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/education/07educ.html?pagewanted=1&ref=politics)
To get a share of the $3.5 billion in what are known as School Improvement Grants, school officials can choose to transform the learning environments in failing schools by extending instructional hours and making other changes, converting them to charter schools, closing them entirely or replacing the principal and at least half the staff.

The Central Falls superintendent, Frances Gallo, initially chose the first option this year, but after a dispute arose with the union over extra pay for adding 25 minutes to the school day, she broke off negotiations. Backed by the local school board, she announced the firings on Feb. 23. Last Monday, Mr. Obama supported the board’s action in a speech to a dropout prevention group.

“If a school continues to fail its students year after year after year, if it doesn’t show signs of improvement, then there’s got to be a sense of accountability,” Mr. Obama said. “And that’s what happened in Rhode Island last week.”

[Funka Genocide]

Dude, thats what the fuck I'm talkin' 'bout.

I knew you was my boy Obama.

I have always felt the unspoken opinion that teachers were in some way sacrosanct or beyond reproach was a terrible concept. They are doing a job, it's not as hard as some jobs and its harder than others, it doesn't pay as much as some jobs and it pays more than others. The only thing truly important about it is the impact it has on the next generation of people, which to me doesn't suggest that they should have a protected status, but rather that they should be held to high standards.

Its always been my opinion that poor school districts attract poor teachers. Poor in the sense that they don't do their jobs properly. They can get in because the school is desperate for teachers and all they have to do is go through the motions and collect a paycheck, all the while enjoying the status of "teacher" and acting as though they're making some great sacrifice for the greater good of humanity. Fuck that, put up or shut up.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The article doesn't go into detail but what I gather from that is the school wanted the teachers to work an extra 25 minutes every day without increasing their pay so they got fired. Which is bullshit.
Like if your boss told you you now have to work longer than your contracted hours without any increase in pay and if you raise a stink you are fired I think you would be pissed off too

[Funka Genocide]

Its possible, but I think the emphasis was more that they sucked and then started pitching a bitch about getting more money for sucking.

[Mirai Gen]

I think it might have been a dispute about getting overtime pay instead of just regular pay. Article is very ambiguous.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Yeah we also can't conclude that they are horrible teachers either. But mass firings tend to not be performance related because that doesn't make much sense. This seems far more about pay than performance.

[Mirai Gen]

I wouldn't say that - the school is horrendously under performing. They wouldn't have entered negotiations about extending school hours if they actually were upset about the teachers being paid too much.

If there was anything money related it'd be a school desperate for funding trying to make a big change to get the fund from the school Grant.

[MasterOfMagic]

[...]only 7 percent of 11th graders passed state math tests last fall.
Sounds like a performance issue to me.

[Premmy]

Plus, I mean, Dude, 25 minutes? C'mon. If my boss asked me to say another half hour, I'd probably not bitch, and I HATE that place.

[BitVyper]

Wait, where does it say the teachers are shitty? I mean yeah, shitty teachers will have a negative impact on their students, but there's certainly more factors involved than that. Chances are, if every single class has gone to complete shit, there's a broader problem. The article doesn't say the teachers were fired for being shitty, it says they were fired because of hangups with union action preventing the administration from diving into grant money. It also says that more than just teachers were fired, so people who probably aren't even directly involved with teaching or grades are getting axed too. Ironically, the guys who are more likely responsible for allowing the system to go to shit are probably still in their offices.

I'm not entirely sure why the firings are being endorsed by the government since all it basically says is that it's okay to fire your entire staff in order to circumvent union negotiation when you try to extend regular working hours.


Plus, I mean, Dude, 25 minutes? C'mon. If my boss asked me to say another half hour, I'd probably not bitch, and I HATE that place.

This isn't your boss asking you to stay half an hour late. Teachers do that on a pretty regular basis. This is your boss coming up to you and saying "by the way, your shift is now half an hour longer (probably at regular pay, but I didn't look it up) and if you don't like it fuck you you're fired. Also I'm still going to ask you to stay later than that on a regular basis, and next year probably extend it another half hour."

Edit: Also it was the administration that was unwilling to negotiate here. The union was in negotiations with them, but they were stalled, then the administration just said "fuck it, you're all fired."

[Funka Genocide]

My sister has to take a 2 hour break in the middle of the day because the company she works for are a bunch of cock suckers.

I know a lot of people that have mandatory 1 hour lunch breaks even if they don't actually take a lunch break.

[Hetsurin]

"Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!"

This is a good move in my eyes, if the teachers can't teach then they gotta go; it's about the kids, man, if they're not learning anything then a school needs to reevaluate what the problem is.

Good on you Obama, + 10 Coolness Points.

[Premmy]

This isn't your boss asking you to stay half an hour late. Teachers do that on a pretty regular basis. This is your boss coming up to you and saying "by the way, your shift is now half an hour longer (probably at regular pay, but I didn't look it up) and if you don't like it fuck you you're fired. Also I'm still going to ask you to stay later than that on a regular basis, and next year probably extend it another half hour."

Edit: Also it was the administration that was unwilling to negotiate here. The union was in negotiations with them, but they were stalled, then the administration just said "fuck it, you're all fired."

Good point, But I think it's true that the problem is Equal parts bad teachers, bad parents, and bad environments.

[Oron]

I'm worried about who the board will replace those teachers with. I mean, if the school's doing that poorly, I doubt some experienced teacher would decide to work there. The best they'll probably get is young teachers just out of college that burn out in a few years from dealing with crummy students all the time.

[Hetsurin]

I'm worried about who the board will replace those teachers with. I mean, if the school's doing that poorly, I doubt some experienced teacher would decide to work there. The best they'll probably get is young teachers just out of college that burn out in a few years from dealing with crummy students all the time.

And thus the cycle begins anew.

[Premmy]

You know, Teaching REALLY should be a government job at this point(barring private schools) so that the State can TELL you where you're working when you move to a new place.

[bluestarultor]

I'm really split on this, because my aunt is a teacher, and if she's to be believed, they're in unions for a reason, because they tend to get fucked with.

On the other hand, in many cases, they have WAY too much power, and I've had the misfortune of having one teacher who simply did not give a damn and had been there forever. Also, one who threw a double-legged, metal music stand at his students and saw absolutely nothing for it. I'm inclined to think that if a school really IS a failure that something has to change.

I guess I agree with bad teachers getting fired, but that it needs to be more selective than this. There's bound to be a few good teachers in even the worst school who really deserve to be kept around.

[Mirai Gen]

Yeah if the title didn't make my bias clear from the beginning I'm very very okay with the teachers getting fired.

I do have second thoughts about my opinion but honestly the teachers can only be the common denominator so many times before you realize that something is seriously not working.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

So what we have is either
A) Every single teacher at this school is drastically underperforming
or
B) They are not getting the resources they need as a whole.
The second is far more likely and common than the first. And if it was a performance issue why was it not dealt with before now and on an individual basis.
Wherver you work and imagine your boss coming in and saying "We missed target this month so I can conclude you are all incompetent and I'm firing all of you." This is pretty clear scapegoating.

[Mirai Gen]

B) They are not getting the resources they need as a whole. The second is far more likely and common than the first.
Central Falls is pretty much a shithole of poverty and low paying jobs, I will admit. But if they really did turn over control of the schools to the state I'm iffy if resources are really what's the problem here. Digging into it deeper makes it pretty obvious that the school is on the marker for immigration so much of the students have English as a second language, which is probably a cause behind some of the awful scores.

After looking around a bit more I'm seeing some statements from students that have claimed the teachers actually are putting in the effort, so consider me back on the fence on this one. I'm starting to think Central Falls could have been a perfectly fine high school caught in the crossfire of trying to spurn some changes in lower-performing schools.

EDIT: Some of the statements are equally supportive from within the school. Gah this is confusing.
Wherver you work and imagine your boss coming in and saying "We missed target this month so I can conclude you are all incompetent and I'm firing all of you." This is pretty clear scapegoating.
That's a terrible example.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

See it's accurate that problems with the performance of individuals would never lead to a mass sacking.

[Funka Genocide]

Teachers should be a new branch of the armed forces, they would all be commissioned as of course, they would all have degrees. They'd be placed where they were most needed depending on specialization, be it algebra, engineering or close quarters combat. This way it'd be a federally governed institution and people could just be jostled around the country as needed like they do with active duty military.

problem solved.

[MasterOfMagic]

Man, the teacher's union would have a collective heart-attack just reading that.

[Tev]

Man, the teacher's union would have a collective heart-attack just reading that.
It's for the best. That's actually a pretty good idea.

[Wigmund]

Apparently the mass firing was the last action the school's superintendent wanted to take.
Oh, and the teachers were going to receive raises for the additional time they spent in training and with students.
From The Providence (Rhode Island) Journal (http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_trustees_vote_02-24-10_EOHI83C_v59.3c21342.html):
Gallo wanted teachers to agree to a set of six conditions she said were crucial to improving the school. Teachers would have to spend more time with students in and out of the classroom and commit to training sessions after school with other teachers.

But Gallo said she could pay teachers for only some of the extra duties. Union leaders said they wanted teachers to be paid for more of the additional work and at a higher pay rate — $90 per hour rather than the $30 per hour offered by Gallo.

[Azisien]

The only thing truly important about it is the impact it has on the next generation of people, which to me doesn't suggest that they should have a protected status, but rather that they should be held to high standards.

I don't know the status of teachers in the US, but they are held to pretty high standards here. Teachers are ridiculously accountable for what they do, provided the parents give a damn.

There's still lots of crappy teachers of course, and there's lots of reasons, I'm too lazy to get into it.

[MasterOfMagic]

It's for the best. That's actually a pretty good idea.
Oh, I know, I'm just sayin'.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Teachers should be a new branch of the armed forces, they would all be commissioned as of course, they would all have degrees. They'd be placed where they were most needed depending on specialization, be it algebra, engineering or close quarters combat. This way it'd be a federally governed institution and people could just be jostled around the country as needed like they do with active duty military.

problem solved.

About a million new problems created.

[Tev]

About a million new problems created.Like?

[Sifright]

well firstly BOOM no more teachers I don't think any one is going to want to be a teacher the extra caveat that whenever the fuck the government wants bam you have to up roots and move your entire fucking family half way around the country.

[bluestarultor]

I don't know the status of teachers in the US, but they are held to pretty high standards here. Teachers are ridiculously accountable for what they do, provided the parents give a damn.

There's still lots of crappy teachers of course, and there's lots of reasons, I'm too lazy to get into it.

To give you an idea of just how accountable teachers are over here, the year I finally got out of band, the band teacher took one of those giant, twenty-pound, two-legged stands and threw it into the ranks of students as they sat in their seats. Absolutely nothing came of it.

Teachers have ridiculous protections in the US in part because people are otherwise ridiculously rotten toward them, but they're also ridiculously abusable.

[Funka Genocide]

well firstly BOOM no more teachers I don't think any one is going to want to be a teacher the extra caveat that whenever the fuck the government wants bam you have to up roots and move your entire fucking family half way around the country.


Oh boo fucking hoo, at least you wouldn't have to deal with getting shot at quite so much.

At least you'd get people who are actually motivated to teach, much like people who are actually motivated to kill join the marines.

[Julford Hajime]

Oh boo fucking hoo, at least you wouldn't have to deal with getting shot at quite so much.

At least you'd get people who are actually motivated to teach, much like people who are actually motivated to kill join the marines.

...

That's...

My god, man. That's all kinds of stupid.

[Funka Genocide]

I swear to christ you motherfuckers wouldn't know tongue in cheek if it was your god damn cheek.

[Julford Hajime]

I swear to christ you motherfuckers wouldn't know tongue in cheek if it was your god damn cheek.

I bite my cheek all the time. It hurts when I do it.

Also, you're terrible at sarcasm.

[Tev]

I'd just like to point out that if the Education system was funded an run just like our Military system it would be one of the best in the world.

[Funka Genocide]

It'd be interesting to compare the total number of teachers to the total number of active duty military. I assume there's a lot more teachers which would likely make a federally ran educations system a bit more difficult.

But it would appear that using local funding for schools is a bad idea, considering the effects of poverty on an area sort of have an endless feedback loop. Low income areas cause property values to lower, causing more low income families to move in, causing property values to go lower, making property taxes lower (which are generally the lion's share of school funding) which in turn lowers the quality of the school, which makes the school less attractive to good teachers which makes the students less successful, which helps them grow up poor etc. etc.

I don't understand why we don't just switch the whole industry over to federal funding and start doleing out cash based on student population. Understandably there is federal funding for schools, but its so piecemeal and obviously inadequate that it sort of beggars the question "can't we do this better?"

(Also such funding could come with a commensurate Federal Overseer who would stalk the halls and kick the shit out of unruly students and faculty. He/She could tap all the classrooms and break in through the windows when a teacher made a mistake, removing them forcibly from the classroom never to be seen again.)

[Azisien]

I don't understand why we don't just switch the whole industry over to federal funding and start doleing out cash based on student population. Understandably there is federal funding for schools, but its so piecemeal and obviously inadequate that it sort of beggars the question "can't we do this better?"

Well this plan doesn't HAVE to be federal. This same transition is happening in Ontario right now, which is provincial funding for education. It used to be the case that there were rich school boards around rich neighbourhoods and poor school boards around inner cities.

Ontario started funding based on per student, and it's having dramatic effects on the poorer schools. Of course, the rich areas are complaining because "funding keeps getting cut, those darn liberals/conservatives/anarchists!" Funding for education has been increasing though, the money is just shifting around more equitably, and that does mean some of the overcompensated school boards lose money, but boo fucking hoo.

[Magus]

This is a union and pay issue. It was made into a performance issue by the media, who regularly support merit pay for teachers, along with your average Republican senator, who is of course just looking to cut educational funding.

The point is this: the teachers were fired because they didn't want to work longer without being paid for the time. They were then fired by the district. The media then said they deserved to be fired because the district is performing poorly, and they should have accepted the extra hours without pay.

If the teachers are bad, they should be fired, not hired back at less pay. If they are good, they should be paid for this time. Who thinks that someone who is incompetent should be hired for less money? Would you go to a doctor with a record of incompetency for heart surgery if he was cheaper than the other guy? Would you go to a dentist whose patients' fillings regularly break and fall out if he was charging bargain bin prices? Would you hire a plumber to install plumbing in your house if you knew it was going to leak and ruin things as long as he was 50% cheaper than a quality worker?

People can't have their cake and eat it too, or their kids will suffer. Who wants bad teachers at less pay? You'll have a generation of poorly educated children. Either pay quality teachers for their time or expect union issues like this to continue.

Besides all of that, NCLB testing has not been improved or drastically changed since Obama took office. It's basically exactly the same as it was during the Bush years. Obama has not delivered on his promise to revolutionize NCLB, and Arne Duncan is Margaret Spellings with a different name and gender. You can't base an assessment of childrens' learning on a standardized test given once a year. Ignoring the weaknesses of a standardized test that everyone, including special needs and ESL students are expected to take (yes, that's right, people who don't know English are taking the English NCLB tests. People reading at a third grade level are taking the 9th grade NCLB tests), I'm pretty sure one test given every 365 days is not particularly valid as an assessment tool.

Before you guys go off and start attacking teachers, I'd like you to think about this particular situation logically (i.e. they were fired after negotiating for a pay raise, not after the test scores came back) and also look at all the other factors coming into play involving NCLB and the total lack of change under Obama, whose opinion on this frankly puts my judgment of him in question. He has a habit of saying things without thinking them through and looking at all the angles once in a while, and this is one of the times, in my opinion. He should quit rendering judgments on local level issues and events that he doesn't have all the information on, just a CNN blurb from Connecticut prep school principal Steve Perry. I'm glad Perry was able to turn around an Hartford, Connecticut inner city magnet school but maybe there are other factors in a Rhode Island inner city school he's not taking into account, either.

The only good thing to come out of pre-judged media blurbs is maybe it might make someone somewhere think about the real causes of poor performance in inner city schools, including socio-economic status and the fact that it's difficult to attract good teachers when there are low property taxes to fund attractive pay, creating an endless cycle of poor performance. But that probably won't happen. Instead, people will just assume that 93 people were to blame and that there isn't any larger problem with our education system, and we can just fix all this by firing all of them and hiring whoever was on the local substitute lists, probably recent college graduates, as a quick fix at low pay that surely will deliver wonderful results, no doubt.

Central Falls is pretty much a shithole of poverty and low paying jobs, I will admit. But if they really did turn over control of the schools to the state I'm iffy if resources are really what's the problem here. Digging into it deeper makes it pretty obvious that the school is on the marker for immigration so much of the students have English as a second language, which is probably a cause behind some of the awful scores.

After looking around a bit more I'm seeing some statements from students that have claimed the teachers actually are putting in the effort, so consider me back on the fence on this one. I'm starting to think Central Falls could have been a perfectly fine high school caught in the crossfire of trying to spurn some changes in lower-performing schools.

EDIT: Some of the statements are equally supportive from within the school. Gah this is confusing.

Still trying to figure out how someone who doesn't know English is supposed to do well on an English test, but I'm sure Obama can explain it all for us. :)

[Mirai Gen]

The point is this: the teachers were fired because they didn't want to work longer without being paid for the time. They were then fired by the district.
But Gallo said she could pay teachers for only some of the extra duties. Union leaders said they wanted teachers to be paid for more of the additional work and at a higher pay rate — $90 per hour rather than the $30 per hour offered by Gallo.
They wanted to be paid more for working more.

As I understand it, this is the equivalent of, "We want you to work some overtime." "Okay, then I want a raise."
Still trying to figure out how someone who doesn't know English is supposed to do well on an English test, but I'm sure Obama can explain it all for us.
The 11th grade failed math scores are what are being held up as the real crux of the problem, not the English ones.

They even have an entire primary course for English as a Second Language, as detailed in the articles posted.

[Tev]

On top of that.....who the hell askes for a 300% pay raise and expects to get it?

[Magus]

Okay, fine, that's a huge pay raise they were asking for (actually it would come out to, what, 45 dollars a day or so if they're only getting it for an extra 25 minutes). That's what negotiating is for. The district didn't want to negotiate the pay down, they just wanted to fire ALL the teachers and hire cheaper substitutes. It's a cost-saving measure.

Also trying to see why you would fire ALL the teachers for bad math test scores. Pretty sure an English teacher shouldn't be held responsible for poor math test scores. Same goes for social studies and science (I think they are going to add those in this coming year, but who knows).

I just really want to know where they're going to find 93 highly qualified teachers willing to work with a poorly performing school in a low SES area, knowing that they will be fired out right if they go on strike or ask for a raise, in...a week or two so they can finish up this school year, maybe?

They even have an entire primary course for English as a Second Language, as detailed in the articles posted.

The tests are still given in English. Schools are required by law to have ESL classes, it doesn't mean that the students are going to then be able to take tests that are written in English because they've had ESL classes. It can take years to fully acquire another language. And don't tell me there aren't word problems on math tests that require quite the grasp of the English language.

NCLB tests should be given in the students' native language. Start doing that and then if the scores are still low, we can at least remove the language barrier as one of the causes.

[Mirai Gen]

Okay, fine, that's a huge pay raise they were asking for (actually it would come out to, what, 45 dollars a day or so if they're only getting it for an extra 25 minutes). That's what negotiating is for. The district didn't want to negotiate the pay down, they just wanted to fire ALL the teachers and hire cheaper substitutes. It's a cost-saving measure.

They did negotiate. Gallo suggested getting 30$ dollars for the alloted time, they wanted more than that (triple that). A settlement couldn't be reached so they abandoned the idea. That's exactly what negotiation is.

I will admit that there's a lot here we don't know but it really strikes me as frustratingly ignorant for the teachers to demand more money to do the exact same job but for slightly longer, especially when the testing scores are so low.

Having said thus I've leaned to the side that this isn't the right decision and there were far better ones to pick, if only because it sounds like the problem is overcrowded classes with language barriers.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Testing scores being low is pretty much not at all the teachers fault and they get paid shit all for all the qualifications they have to do- they deserve a raise.
And did it perhaps occur to anyone that the reason teachers are terrible is that any good ones just get fired when they ask for a raise and replaced by cheaper alternatives.

Like?
Good luck teaching schools when there is like 1 teacher in the entire country.

[Tev]

Good luck teaching schools when there is like 1 teacher in the entire country.
Yes because we have such a hard time fighting wars and defending things with only one soldier in our entire country as well.

Getting military grade pay (College Diploma = Officer pay-grade by the way) as well as tax incentives and other military benefits would be more than an acceptable draw to bring in fresh teaching recruits. Also it would solve the issues in poor uniformity our teaching curriculums have. The military doesn’t run on faith. It runs on science and proven tactics. It would guarantee that all of our students would be getting nearly identical educations from highly trained teachers.

[Funka Genocide]

Just to kind of add some fuel to the fire here, you do realize that a lot of teachers are ex-military right?

That a lot of Americans are ex-military, in general.

[Magus]

Why only make teachers part of the military, I can think of about a dozen professions that should be part of the military if you're going to make teachers part of the military, like doctors and lawyers and so on. Heck, let's just make politicians part of the military, it can be like Starship Troopers.

EDIT: Actually I wasn't sure if Tev's point was that education would be better if it were funded like the military or run like the military. Maybe both. The whole country would be better if things were funded like the military, holy smokes. Run like the military, eh. I don't think we need to go that far.

[Tev]

To be fair, I really liked Starship Trooper's system of government.

[bluestarultor]

Just to bring this up, and I really don't give a flying eff if people call me terrible, but if you're going to be in an English-speaking country, you damn well better know English. Before you ready the tar and feathers, I'd say the same thing about any other language. If I were to move to Mexico, I'd be expected to learn Spanish, wouldn't I? If I moved to France, shouldn't I damn well know how to speak French? Same thing here. We have a large ESL population in my area, but by God, my old school district has one of the best test score rates in the STATE. If the kids ended up somehow not knowing English, it's either because they got uppity and didn't want to or because the ESL program was a failure.

I'm sorry, but FUCK catering to everyone's native language in schools. It would be an utter failure of the educational system to fail to educate kids in what by all means should be the national language, and the one they're going to need to know to survive here.

I'm not saying they should toss out their other languages, but there's a time and place for them, and stupidly resisting learning English in the US is not getting anyone anywhere. Be bilingual. Hell, be HECTA-lingual for all I care. But if you're in the US, one of them should be English, the same way it should be German in Germany or Mandarin in China or Tagalog in the Philippines.



On NCLB, give Obama a break. Bush had eight years to work with and Obama is expected to fix it all in a fraction of that with a Congress too busy tearing at each other to help him? He's only one guy heading only one branch of government and needs help he's not getting to get shit done. If it were as easy as him just doing it, I'm sure there's all SORTS of stuff he'd be doing, but he's essentially a fly trying to shout over several warring swarms of bees here. NCLB is admittedly FUBAR, but it's a bit more complicated than Obama waving a magic wand to get it done.

[Magus]

Well, there's a difference between waving a magic wand and doing...anything? The educational system and NCLB haven't been addressed except to start adding in social studies and science high-stakes standardized tests, as if that was a good step in the right direction.

Also, I'd say the entire point of ESL classes is to move them into knowing English. It just may take more time than is normally allotted. I think some kids are basically taken out of ESL classes in one or two years and basically put into a sink or swim situation, when they would probably benefit from being in ESL classes a lot longer.

[bluestarultor]

Well, there's a difference between waving a magic wand and doing...anything? The educational system and NCLB haven't been addressed except to start adding in social studies and science high-stakes standardized tests, as if that was a good step in the right direction.

Also, I'd say the entire point of ESL classes is to move them into knowing English. It just may take more time than is normally allotted. I think some kids are basically taken out of ESL classes in one or two years and basically put into a sink or swim situation, when they would probably benefit from being in ESL classes a lot longer.

That's really not how ESL works, from my understanding. They're supposed to get kids up to speed and then normal English classes can take over. If they're not doing that, they're not doing their job.

[Magus]

"Getting up to speed" can vary from child to child. And you have to keep in mind that getting them up to speed is teaching them a new language, which can take a long time. I think it's difficult to just put a child into a situation where you know they will not do well because they don't know the language well enough yet, and it's going to play hell with the supposed validity of the NCLB test as well.

Basically, if you tell a teacher that "doing their job" is getting a student who only speaks Spanish to know English 100% (or, heck, 90%) in one year and then punish the teacher when they don't accomplish it, you're being unreasonable. It can take years to master a language well enough to take a test in it and do well. A lot of the time they aren't giving these students long enough in ESL classes because the district only wants to hire a certain amount of ESL teachers and can only have a maximum class size of so many students, so they move the student out of ESL before they're ready. Not to mention whether or not they've been in ESL for one year or three, they have to take the NCLB tests written in English. If you'd just gotten into this country nine months ago, not speaking a bit of English, do you think you'd be ready to take an 11th grade level reading test nine months later?

[bluestarultor]

"Getting up to speed" can vary from child to child. And you have to keep in mind that getting them up to speed is teaching them a new language, which can take a long time. I think it's difficult to just put a child into a situation where you know they will not do well because they don't know the language well enough yet, and it's going to play hell with the supposed validity of the NCLB test as well.

Basically, if you tell a teacher that "doing their job" is getting a student who only speaks Spanish to know English 100% (or, heck, 90%) in one year and then punish the teacher when they don't accomplish it, you're being unreasonable. It can take years to master a language well enough to take a test in it and do well. A lot of the time they aren't giving these students long enough in ESL classes because the district only wants to hire a certain amount of ESL teachers and can only have a maximum class size of so many students, so they move the student out of ESL before they're ready. Not to mention whether or not they've been in ESL for one year or three, they have to take the NCLB tests written in English. If you'd just gotten into this country nine months ago, not speaking a bit of English, do you think you'd be ready to take an 11th grade level reading test nine months later?

One year? What in all the cosmos gave you THAT idea? These are kids in 11th grade. That's 12 years including kindergarten that are available to teach them English. ESL usually drops out around the end of grade school in my area because it's combined with English vocabulary in normal classes. Put simply, they're given a crash course to start and are given at least double the devotion to learning the language after that.

Man, if ANYONE expects a kid to learn a whole language in one year, they're crazy. It took me FIVE to learn French.

Aside from that, word problems aren't exactly heavy on advanced English in the first place. A senior-level word problem still reads at a sixth-grade reading level at absolute most.

[Mirai Gen]

There's also the fact that language is really really fucking hard to learn if it isn't done at an early age, since people don't think of objects = words.

Having said thus I want to say that if they get into the school relatively early language shouldn't be an issue. I'm not sure if this is always the case but it can't always be the case.

[Magus]

One year? What in all the cosmos gave you THAT idea? These are kids in 11th grade. That's 12 years including kindergarten that are available to teach them English. ESL usually drops out around the end of grade school in my area because it's combined with English vocabulary in normal classes. Put simply, they're given a crash course to start and are given at least double the devotion to learning the language after that.

Man, if ANYONE expects a kid to learn a whole language in one year, they're crazy. It took me FIVE to learn French.

Aside from that, word problems aren't exactly heavy on advanced English in the first place. A senior-level word problem still reads at a sixth-grade reading level at absolute most.

See, you're assuming that all 11th graders came to this country before they started Kindergarten. If they did, they probably wouldn't need ESL classes until they were in 11th grade, they would have a much better advantage at learning English than someone who came to this country at a later age. I'm talking about students who come here at a more advanced age like ten or eleven or even later.

You also have to remember that ESL classes are different from state to state. Some states have horrible ESL class standards and they are not given for extended periods of years.

You also seem to be under the impression that a student would willfully not learn English. I'd basically say that is not the case for any child in public school. Some cantankerous old guy, maybe.

As for word problems, half of your native English-speaking population has had problems with them, I can only assume that it's even harder for someone who has English as their second language. Let's just throw in some people have reading disabilities or reading at lower levels in on top of that and the validity of giving a test in English to someone who speaks English as a second language goes way down.

[Eldezar]

Does anyone have personal experience with Rosetta Stone? I've always wondered, if it is as good as the reviews, then why can't something like that be implemented into any second-language course? Or is it generally accepted that RS is just a scam or not as good as taking a high-school/college language class?

[bluestarultor]

See, you're assuming that all 11th graders came to this country before they started Kindergarten. If they did, they probably wouldn't need ESL classes until they were in 11th grade, they would have a much better advantage at learning English than someone who came to this country at a later age. I'm talking about students who come here at a more advanced age like ten or eleven or even later.

You also have to remember that ESL classes are different from state to state. Some states have horrible ESL class standards and they are not given for extended periods of years.

You also seem to be under the impression that a student would willfully not learn English. I'd basically say that is not the case for any child in public school. Some cantankerous old guy, maybe.

As for word problems, half of your native English-speaking population has had problems with them, I can only assume that it's even harder for someone who has English as their second language. Let's just throw in some people have reading disabilities or reading at lower levels in on top of that and the validity of giving a test in English to someone who speaks English as a second language goes way down.

I think you're not understanding me. I'm not saying these kids have all HAD twelve years to learn the language, but I started French in high school and learned it thoroughly in five, and had a working knowledge in three, and could have maybe gotten around in two.

And if ESL standards are really that bad, then there needs to be a LOT more effort put in. You can go above standards, after all, which is what's in question here.

Finally, word problems trip people up not because they're hard to read, but because it's already hard to convert prose into an equation and they more often than not are filled with irrelevant information specifically to trip you up, which your brain has a harder time negating because your language centers aren't as good at cutting out the crap as your logic centers or whatever handles numbers. Word problems are hard for everyone because they're designed to be, but their reading level has jack to do with it.

[Yrcrazypa]

Does anyone have personal experience with Rosetta Stone? I've always wondered, if it is as good as the reviews, then why can't something like that be implemented into any second-language course? Or is it generally accepted that RS is just a scam or not as good as taking a high-school/college language class?

I get it free from being in the military, and although I haven't had time to fully utilize it, it seems like it was a very useful program. You will still need to actually speak the language in an actual conversation with someone, but it starts off teaching you the very, very basics, and then goes from there. In a few hours of using it, I did learn more than I did in a year of French Class, at least as far as time investment versus knowledge gained goes.

[Eldezar]

I get it free from being in the military, and although I haven't had time to fully utilize it, it seems like it was a very useful program. You will still need to actually speak the language in an actual conversation with someone, but it starts off teaching you the very, very basics, and then goes from there. In a few hours of using it, I did learn more than I did in a year of French Class, at least as far as time investment versus knowledge gained goes.

So, hire RS to design the [insert language] curriculum for a school or two and see how it works?

[Jagos]

There's also the fact that language is really really fucking hard to learn if it isn't done at an early age, since people don't think of objects = words.

Having said thus I want to say that if they get into the school relatively early language shouldn't be an issue. I'm not sure if this is always the case but it can't always be the case.

IIRC, until you're six, you can pick up a language fairly quickly. The part of your brain that is speech doesn't necessarily close off, but it becomes more difficult and harder to translate, which slows down comprehension.

I learned Japanese because I was always around it, which is what RS is based upon. I was 16. Even now, I remember a lot of words and grammar, but I have a harder time learning new words because I'm not around it. (Seriously, Texas has NO Asian population when compared to the west coast.)

And if ESL standards are really that bad, then there needs to be a LOT more effort put in. You can go above standards, after all, which is what's in question here.

The problem can be the "one size fits all" approach of ESL. A few places in California have Vietnamese, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese and Haitian populations that could totally mess up how they learn ESL. If you think about the structures needed to teach all of these kids at one time, it could be daunting.

There's nothing wrong with how you do it, but after a few years, these people may only know the basis of the language because it doesn't skew to what they need. For the three Asian languages, they have to learn a new way of writing INCLUDING grammar (verbs are last in all three, after subject) and words! Spanish is a close partner and I'm not familiar with Haitian language but still, what you're saying is that it's their own fault for not learning the language when it could be a different set of barriers.

[Magus]

I just don't understand why it's apparently impossible to put the NCLB test into Spanish or another translation. Sure, the kids need to learn English; but in the meantime, if they opt to take it in Spanish to get a better score, I can't see what the problem with it is. After all, even the reading portion is not testing if they can read English but if they can identify specific facts from passages, determine vocabulary from context, etc. I think only the questions on English grammar/punctuation would be tricky, hmm...

In any case, I can't think of a single reason that a person who speaks Spanish as their first language couldn't take a Spanish-translated NCLB math test. There's simply no reason not to other than "They should learn English faster! Let's purposefully have them fail this test just to prove a point!" or something...

[Mirai Gen]

Especially since the best way to learn foreign languages is to just be around them and have conversations. The more exposure the better.

NCLB needs to be in Spanish, yeah.

[Magus]

It just seems like an easy step to make the test a valid measurement of their knowledge of math or another subject instead of their ability to take tests in another language piled on top of that.