Fullmetal Alchemist

[Lithp]

I'm not sure what's with translation companies irritating the crap out of me recently, but since Viz Media can't do in several months what a bunch of random nerds on the internet can do in about a week, I decided to start watching subbed episodes of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood again.

I can't believe what I've been missing out on! Al's battle with Pride was absolutely awesome. Envy's death was surprisingly gut-wrenching. And I hear that it gets even crazier pretty soon.

I'm already at least a whole volume past what I was at before. My only concern is that this might dampen my excitement to get the volumes when they finally DO come out.

In any case, is anyone else a fan of this awesome series? Personally, I prefer the 1st anime (I'm just weird like that), but the manga definitely has its strengths.

[Kim]

I'm liking Brotherhood more than the original, just because I feel it's drawing to a close much better. The original anime handled the beginning much better, but I just don't feel the ending was nearly as strong.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I'm not sure what's with translation companies irritating the crap out of me recently, but since Viz Media can't do in several months what a bunch of random nerds on the internet can do in about a week, I decided to start watching subbed episodes of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood again.

I can't believe what I've been missing out on! Al's battle with Pride was absolutely awesome. Envy's death was surprisingly gut-wrenching. And I hear that it gets even crazier pretty soon.

I'm already at least a whole volume past what I was at before. My only concern is that this might dampen my excitement to get the volumes when they finally DO come out.

In any case, is anyone else a fan of this awesome series? Personally, I prefer the 1st anime (I'm just weird like that), but the manga definitely has its strengths.

It should be noted that Viz's problem regarding bleach may be more aimed at the Japanese animation studio in charge of bleach. Since they seem to have issues with Viz personally.

FMA BH dub is safe though since Funimation has a pretty good rep now. And AS is in love with it.

I'm up to the most recent chapter of the manga. Watched every dub Episode for both FMA and FMA BH. But I haven't watched the subs yet (despite it being one of the few legal free stream subs thanks to funimation).

[Lithp]

I can kind of see that, NonCon. I think that the 1st anime was anticlimactic to an extent, because the focus was never meant to be on the fighting. And a lot of people didn't like the plot device regarding the Gate.

To me, that kinda made sense. I mean, Gates traditionally GO somewhere.

In any case, I consider the manga's biggest strength to be the fact that it goes far more in-depth, while the anime gave us more development with the Homunculi.

As to the actual 2nd anime itself, it's been irritating me for some time, because I've felt that the animators were being cheap &/or lazy. Envy's true form, for example, is SO much more detailed in the manga, & it's hinted that it moves a lot more. Now that I've seen the recent episodes, though, I suspect that they've been saving up for the end, so I'm cool.

Except that Envy's mouth reminds me of Teeth.

Kyanbu: My problem with FMA's translation is actually the mangas, not the dub. I was told recently that Vol. 23 would be out on April 20th. I went to Barnes & Noble on that day & was told that the release date was actually JUNE 20th. I don't know whether the clerk made an error or if the date was pushed back, but either way, that's ridiculous. It's ALREADY behind schedule. From what I've seen, other series are about the same story.

I kinda tried putting myself in their shoes, but every single argument I could come up with to explain this was undermined by the fact that fanslation sites can actually stick to a schedule, so a whole company should be able to do it, too.

[Naqel]

The original anime handled the beginning much better, but I just don't feel the ending was nearly as strong.

That's probably cause the second anime tried to avoid repeating something their target audience has already seen, they just rushed through it for those who might actually have their first contact with FMA in this series.

[Kim]

I'm pretty sure episode 55 is The Best Thing Ever. Armstrong brofist!

[Premmy]

That's probably cause the second anime tried to avoid repeating something their target audience has already seen, they just rushed through it for those who might actually have their first contact with FMA in this series.

Doesn't make it Good writing.

[Magus]

I quit buying the American translated manga after I read that they translated Xerxes as "Cselkciss" in later volumes, cause I can't take that level of ineptitude. Confirm or deny this tidbit for me.

If you're going to go ahead and watch subbed versions of FMA BH you might as well read scanlations of the manga online, you can always buy the American volumes when they come out. I don't think the FBI is going to rappel through your windows for viewing open websites that don't even require you to download anything. OR WILL THEY?

Yes, the second anime's beginning is rushed. Maybe some kind of omni-version will eventually be released that intersperses episodes from the first anime into the series, while avoiding episodes involving, say, Majhal. Battle on the Train, for example.

[Pip Boy]

I liked brotherhood up until just recently when There was that cheesy cliche scene where Mustang was all raging at Envy and they did the whole "revenge intervention" thing with like one episode of buildup to it in such a way that it seemed totally forced in there and made no sense. If Colonel Mustang's hunt for whoever killed Hughes and rage about the whole incident had been made more apparent in previous episodes, it would have been more believable, but the whole thing seemed like a totally random and pointless way to shove a sappy moral into the story.

[Magus]

The manga did a better job of it, yeah. There are few anime that do everything from the manga right...I think Death Note was the only one I saw (and they even changed the ending slightly, ever so slightly...and added in some lame scene where Light and L get wet and dry each other off, what was up with that one?)

[Lithp]

Xerxes was translated as Cselkcess at one point, yes. It was very confusing.

I kind of don't want to read the chapters online because I feel it will ruin it when I go to buy the volumes, but I'm starting to think I might have to.

Every other series I read I read online. I ain't buyin' hundreds of volumes of every manga I'm slightly interested in. FMA is special in that regard.

[Eltargrim]

As to the actual 2nd anime itself, it's been irritating me for some time, because I've felt that the animators were being cheap &/or lazy. Envy's true form, for example, is SO much more detailed in the manga, & it's hinted that it moves a lot more. Now that I've seen the recent episodes, though, I suspect that they've been saving up for the end, so I'm cool.

I'm pretty astounded with the animation in Brotherhood; Bones is pushing out some of the most fluid animation we've seen in, well, ever.

I mean, feel free to criticize the content, but the animation has been bang-on since day 1.

As for translation delays; editors are duuuumb, and publishing a .png is easier than publishing a book. That one mistranslation, though; that's wacky. I mean, lolwut?

[Magus]

There are a few episodes where the animation takes a noticeable dive but the fluidity during major fight scenes is pretty great, yeah. I think they save all their budget for particular episodes where a lack of quality would ruin the experience.

As for Cselkcess, maybe that's exactly how a Japanese person would say Xerxes? Like they have a the Japanese text and they have a guy who speaks Japanese and he says, "This is pronounced 'Cselkcess' in Japanese" and then having absolutely no background in the actual historical stuff Arakawa is referring to (Xerxes was the rule of the Persian Empire and Amestris was his wife or one of his wives if I remember correctly), they just went with a direct translation since they were unaware of the theme behind character and place names.

That's why Huey was translated as Fury in the English version, after all. Fury is just cooler so no one had a problem with it. :P

[Lithp]

Elta: Dude, what? Compare anime Envy to manga Envy. There's no way you can tell me that they're the same. In the manga, the skin texture on some of his legs are totally different, he has scales on some parts of his body, & the body parts move way more. He's probably not green, either. It's not the most critical example, but for a quick comparison, it gets the job done.

Also, the artwork of the first anime was just plain better.

Magus: I only recently found out that FMA is a monthly serialization, causing me to feel like a complete dumbass. But still! In any case, whether you're reading online or the official translation, you're going to find stupid mistranslations & phrasings you don't like occasionally. As for Fury, I heard that his name, along with Mustang & the rest of his subordinates, referenced planes.

[Magus]

Yeah, but I think some of the people doing translations don't know that, because they went with "Fury" instead of Huey (a type of plane), without asking themselves "Hmm, all the other military people have vehicle names, but this guy doesn't, maybe something is wrong here", which showed a fundamental lack of understanding of the naming structure which may have aided them in the translation. Like if you didn't know Van Hohenheim was the name of an actual alchemist and they just HEARD the name said as a Japanese person said it they probably would've screwed up the spelling pretty easily, because European words and names are harder to pronounce for the average Japanese person.

Years ago, I watched a fan translation of Record of Lodoss War which starred "Pan" and "Diedrit" and "Vagnaard" and so on, because that's how the names Parn, Deedlit, and Wagnaard were pronounced by the characters in the show or how they would be pronounced by a Japanese person, rather than what was intended by the creator. These were just fan translators and that's all they had to work with, and if the translators of the manga had only had a speaking part to use for their translation it would also be understandable. But they had access to the actual written out manga with all the little word balloons and stuff, so it's less understandable...still not a big deal but then again I'm not sure why Envy being green (I seriously thought he was green in the comic, though, so I actually fundamentally disagree with you there) when maybe he was some other color which can't be known because it's in black and white, is a big deal either. They're just minor complaints...

Envy is rendered in that cheap 3D, though, they should've hand animated him.

[Kim]

Yeah, the cheap 3D for envy bugs the hell out of me. Feels so out of place. At least we don't need to see any more of it! :D

[Lithp]

Magus: Some of Envy isn't even shaded. As well, he's supposed to be "compositionally human." Both of those lead me to believe he's a fleshy color. As you said, it's a minor complaint, possibly even an improvement. But solid green he is not, either way.

By far my biggest irritation with fanslation was in Trinity Blood. They used that -sama honoriffic thing. I find those kind of annoying under ordinary circumstances, but when the character is a priest of the Catholic Church, it's time to stop overdoing the "original is best" elitism & just translate it as "Father Nightroad."

But no, what I was saying was that I was of the understanding that the name "Fury" was a reference to a military vehicle.

Edit: On that certain someone's death, I actually felt that it was surprisingly sad. "Bye, bye...Edward Elric...."

[Magus]

I didn't really feel sympathetic towards him like I did in the manga, in spite of the cute voice (or maybe because of it?). I don't think they did the dramatic aspect of it very well there. Actually I think it failed in the manga, too, I just wasn't feeling it.

Anyway, I'm too lazy to look it up but I'm pretty sure there was at least one color frame of Envy's true form that showed he was green, like one of the title pages. While I'm too lazy to look up the image as I mentioned, I will post this sculpture someone made way back in 2008 as proof:

http://rodentruler.deviantart.com/art/Envy-s-True-Form-Sculpt-91408402 (http://rodentruler.deviantart.com/art/Envy-s-True-Form-Sculpt-91408402)

You are partially correct, though, the human heads are definitely flesh colored, and the back legs.

[Aerozord]

worst fan translations are when you can tell they didn't even actually watch it.

Was from bleach filler. subtitle said, Daruku, when the VA clearly said Dark. The VA gets it perfectly and they still screw it up

[Kim]

Two main characters died? This is crazy.

EDIT: OHSHIT

[Lithp]

Which characters are we talking about?

[Kim]

Fu and... whatsisface. The Briggs dude with the robot arm. Stabbed through Fu to hit Bradley.

Oh and I guess the characters who just got ate by the gate but we know they're fine so whatevs.

[Lithp]

Alright. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

[Corel]

Manga prediction:

Ed somehow acquires the god dude's powers which would allow him to do a whole bunch of crazy stuff he's always wanted but instead he's going to sacrifice it (along with his use of Alchemy?) to get Al back; maybe a pair of eyes and reproductive organs too.

Well, I hope it doesn't work out like this exactly; FMA tends to keep the reader guessing on what's going to happen next which is nice.

[Magus]

Actually I thought FMA's greatest strength is that a person can fairly logically predict what is going to happen based on foreshadowing and what characters say, perhaps with a slight twist but nothing approaching a "stupid" plot twist that only seems like a twist based on the fact that it comes totally out of left field. Like the opposite of what M. Night Shymalayn or Square-Enix does.

Like, I knew what Father's ultimate goal was going to be, maybe some of the things he did to get it to happen I couldn't predict but the overall thing seemed fairly obvious. But I like it that way because then the plot makes sense logically (within its own fairy tale universe and rules, I mean).

Anyway, the death of Fu and Buccaneer was definitely a surprise at the time but it wasn't earthshaking due to the fact that they are ancillary characters, not main characters. Their means of wounding Bradley was a "twist", but entirely logical, since his greatest strength is also his greatest weakness, his sight which allows him to predict the future but his dependency on which ultimately allows him to be defeated when it is taken away by a bright light or made powerless by the introduction of an object between him and the weapon that is attacking him.

So, yeah, twists are fun but they always need to be logical and in hindsight you should always go "Huh, wonder why I didn't see that coming!", 'cause if you thought hard enough it probably would have occurred to you. FMA is like that in most cases, though sometimes even it throws a curveball.

[phil_]

Actually I thought FMA's greatest strength is that a person can fairly logically predict what is going to happen based on foreshadowing and what characters say, perhaps with a slight twist but nothing approaching a "stupid" plot twist that only seems like a twist based on the fact that it comes totally out of left field. Like the opposite of what M. Night Shymalayn or Square-Enix does.But... Monthly Shounen Gangan is owned by Square-Enix...

What a twist!

[Magus]

Producing an anthology of comics which would be picked up by another company if they didn't exist doesn't really count...

I'm sure the FMA games that were made by Squarenix are full of plot twists that make no sense, though I haven't played them.

[Lithp]

I've played 2 of the FMA games. They seem to be fairly straightforward, except the revelation that Camilla, the antagonist from Game 1, is 100+ years old & still in her prime. The thing is, this was revealed at the end of the game, so it felt more like a sequel hook than a plot twist. They never went anywhere with it.

As for FMA, in regards to predictability, there are 2 main plot points that bug me: 1. Pride. Seriously, wtf? He pretty much goes against the pseudoscientific backing to this series. There isn't even an attempt made to explain how his power works. Related, but not nearly as bad, is how can Al see, but not hear, taste, touch, etc.? 2. Father's plan was...too predictable. I mean, the way Envy said, "There's much more to it than that" made it sound like...well, there was much more to it than that. I'm happy with the result, but we were really sent on a wild goose chase there: There really wasn't that much more to it.

Also, what plot twists does SE do that make no sense?

[Magus]

For plot twists that make no sense, I could cite FF8 and Chrono Cross, but we've done that a billion times here already and it really has nothing to do with it, so just forget I said anything. You could do a quick search of the forums up above for many topics made for both games with discussions from both sides as to whether or not they are confusing and unneededly complex.

Also, I'm not sure how Pride's ability is any weirder than say, Gluttony's real ability. I suppose time could have been taken to explain it but the author could have done that for a lot of stuff...anyway, Gluttony is Father's attempt to recreate the gate, and Pride seems to be like the stuff inside the gate, so maybe that stuff has those properties.

More could be explained but I don't think we'll get it in the main comic book series. They might eventually release some kind of compendium that explains more of the background elements of FMA. Like, Sloth's ability appeared to be some kind of ability to not take damage from one type of attack more than once, during his first appearance at Briggs, but then Armstrong does just that, attacking him with the same attack several times, and he's also super speedy, so his first appearance is kind of weird and possibly contradictory. I'm assuming his powers at that time have been retconned or else Armstrong is just so powerful he goes right through that defense.

[Lithp]

I was actually looking for a game I'd be familiar with.

As you said, Gluttony is an experimental attempt at recreating the Gate. This makes him basically a wormhole. It makes sense, insofar as we accept that some of this is pseudoscientific.

Pride's ability appears to be manifesting his shadow as physical matter. As we all know that shadows are just objects blocking light & therfore completely immaterial, this cannot be explained with alchemy. That's why I personally choose to view him as some type of plant-like lifeform, but I'm not entirely certain how well that viewpoint holds up under criticism.

As for Sloth, I don't think his original power was actually changed. He's immensely strong & was later revealed to be immensely fast. As for how Armstrong can hurt him, I suppose his alchemy is just that forceful. We know he can't be impenetrable, because that's Greed's schtick. Sloth's added speed probably didn't help much either. Don't get me wrong, that was an anticlimactic end, but I think you can extrapolate what happened without any new information being added.

[Kim]

Actually, I thought of Pride as another Dwarf in the Flask, and didn't really think his abilities were hard to believe with that in mind. That's just me though.

[Lithp]

Yes, he basically is. But you're missing the point. This guy's abilities contradict the series's entire premise: That alchemy works with basic natural laws.

[Premmy]

Every Homunculus has regenerative abilities as a baseline power, their special powers are dependant on the nature of their creation.

At Briggs, sloth was just too lazy to actually DO anything but plod ahead, he wasn't exhibiting any special powers.
as for Pride, I distinctly recall several moments where father and company were all "Naw, alchemy doesn't work like that, we were totally lying, as per our big conspiracy" so Pride's powers don't irk me as much, especially if you consider the fact that ALL of central is technically the inside of his body

[Magus]

I was under the impression that Pride doesn't really use shadows to attack, he uses his shadow, which isn't actually a shadow but some kind of other material with the properties we know of (slicing) and which is housed inside his "body", which is just a shell to house it. It functions like a shadow in that it needs light to be cast to form but it's not actually a shadow, it's some unknown material that he is made of or is at least attached to him in some way, and appears to be the same material Father is truly made of.

There was clearly a scene when Sloth plods through Briggs where they shoot him with a tank, it causes damage, he heals, they shoot him again with another shell, and it bounces off and they go "It doesn't work now!" or something to that effect. Most people thought this meant he had some muscle memory power that prevented the same attack from hurting him twice. Obviously the added momentum from his speediness may have overwhelmed this, as you pointed out, and that's probably what Arakawa was going for.

[Lithp]

Sloth-I honestly don't remember any damage being done to him at all before the big showdown.

Pride-That's kind of how I view him, Magus, but there is a lot of focus on portraying the shadow aspect. On the other hand, Premonitions, Central is definitely not inside of him. He's confined to certain places, not the other way around. As for alchemy in general, this was finally revealed to just be that Father can control alchemy for Amestrians using his Philosophers Stone. Which doesn't entirely make sense, but hey, it more-or-less worked.

[ZAKtheGeek]

My problem's with Ed's Greed-like northern automail. Yeah, okay, I understand you can make carbon "really hard," but "really hard" doesn't equal impenetrable. In the end, it only makes sense that the "ultimate shield" is made possible by carbon but necessarily backed by the alchemic power of a stone.

As for the latest attack on Ed, Mustang, etc, jeez, come on. Oh yeah, we got bred super-soldiers who've been preparing their whole lives, but that's alright, fuckin' Hawkeye's on the job! Who is also wounded, but who cares about wounds, unless you're a red shirt, in which case they're crippling if not fatal. Oh, and by the way, at least one of them seems to be able to dodge bullets. But yeah, it's cool, we got Hawkeye.

[Magus]

Well, that fight was a while ago (in the manga, maybe you're referring to the newest episode I haven't watched yet) but FMA barely kills off side characters, I'm surprised you'd think that any of the main characters are going to get killed.

I was under the impression that they made the carbon into some kind of diamond configuration, and you have to remember that while the arm has carbon in it it also has steel. There is more strength there. Also, Greed's shield didn't run off of his stone, I'm pretty sure, it's some kind of innate ability he had. It was pointed out that his body was technically human, he could just reconstitute the carbon in his skin into a diamond shield. It was just a "natural" (created by Father) ability that ran off of his body's own mechanisms, not the stone, which was used to regenerate damage to his body but not run the shield. Any abilities outside regeneration is more like Father "gene-splicing" human-like bodies to have weird powers, using his knowledge of alchemy. Like the homunculi's powers would be like if a mutant had superpowers (to use comic book terminology), except for regenerating damage. Father could technically create humans who have weird powers without having them be homunculi with regenerating powers from philosopher's stones inside of them (in fact the chimera are a good example, sure he didn't start from scratch but they clearly have powers that are not running off of the power of a philosopher's stone).

As for Father/Amestrian alchemy: the way I took it is that the reason that Father can shut off Amestrian alchemy is it is entirely run on his philosopher's stone juice that runs all throughout the country via those tubes that he attaches to himself. The true power source of Amestrian alchemy is his philosopher's stone fueled by the people of Xerxes, whereas foreign alchemy runs off of natural stuff...I think. It may run off of souls exuded from Hohenheim's philosopher's stone. I think it's clear that the circle that reversed Father's soul-stealing circle was running off of souls Hohenheim had let leech into Amestrian soil.

My only question is whether or not Alcahestry really runs off of the geothermal movements of the earth like was the myth for Alchemy or if it, too, runs off of soul power, possibly from and controlled by Hohenheim who appears to be the Golden Sage who taught all the Eastern people how to use Alcahestry...if so there doesn't appear to be any alchemy that is not "evil" in that it uses dead people's souls for fuel.

[ZAKtheGeek]

I was under the impression that they made the carbon into some kind of diamond configuration, and you have to remember that while the arm has carbon in it it also has steel. There is more strength there. Also, Greed's shield didn't run off of his stone, I'm pretty sure, it's some kind of innate ability he had. It was pointed out that his body was technically human, he could just reconstitute the carbon in his skin into a diamond shield. It was just a "natural" (created by Father) ability that ran off of his body's own mechanisms, not the stone, which was used to regenerate damage to his body but not run the shield.
It's not that I don't get it, but I think it's kind of stupid, and would make more sense if alchemy was involved. What I'm pointing out is that its stupidity is compounded, or thoroughly demonstrated, at least, when Ed starts doing it too.

He has two indestructible limbs. Come on. Fuck that.

Well, that fight was a while ago (in the manga, maybe you're referring to the newest episode I haven't watched yet) but FMA barely kills off side characters, I'm surprised you'd think that any of the main characters are going to get killed.
Again, I'm not surprised, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't make sense. I like it when protagonists die. It usually makes a lot of sense within the context of the story. It doesn't, however, usually make much sense in terms of the author's narrative, and that disconnect eternally irks me. In short, go bad guys.

[Lithp]

Alchemy: That's what a lot of people thought, myself included, but it was revealed to be exactly the same thing, just "dampened." This would actually make the Amestrian definition of alchemy the more technical explanation of the "Dragon's Pulse," which I think is pretty cool.

Pride: I know it's not really relevent anymore, but the reason I said "plant like being" is because, if his power isn't manipulating his shadow & it really IS based off of his body, then plant like characteristics explain that pretty well: It can only grow around light, but it's sensitive to too much light.

Characters dying: Well, how are we defining "main character"? I mean, we've lost some pretty big names & came very close to losing others. Unless you're expecting Ed & Al to drop dead at random, I think FMA has established itself as an Anyone Can Die type series.

Ed's Limbs: Most likely, he can't change the elemental configuration of his automail limbs without running the risk of damaging them. I'm not sure about the manga, but that was stated in the anime. Also, FMA has been pretty consistent with its portrayl of automail modifications as a double-edged sword.

Wrath: I've been trying to figure out for some time, what exactly are the limits of his eye? So far, we seem to have bright lights & significantly opaque objects, so he obviously can't see behind him. Can he actually slash bullets in the manga, or was that just the anime Taking It Up To 11?

[Magus]

I'm not sure about the bullet slashing but that scene was close enough to the manga, he does take on that many soldiers, so in the wake of my being too lazy too look it up and my not being able to post the site where I read it, I'll just go with, "it would not be improbable that the manga showed exactly that."

I think the "coming very close to losing others (many times)" is precisely what Zak is talking about, kind of like in American comics where no one ever dies either. Coming close to dying isn't the same as actually killing them off, it's exactly the thing that annoys him. However, FMA is still ahead of your average American comics franchise at killing characters off.

While it would be difficult to define "main characters", I'd say it's the Elric family, Roy and his troop, and like ten other characters, so it does have a large cast of...maybe not necessarily main characters but secondary characters who at this point are pretty unlikely to be killed.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

It's not that I don't get it, but I think it's kind of stupid, and would make more sense if alchemy was involved. What I'm pointing out is that its stupidity is compounded, or thoroughly demonstrated, at least, when Ed starts doing it too.

He has two indestructible limbs. Come on. Fuck that.


Again, I'm not surprised, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't make sense. I like it when protagonists die. It usually makes a lot of sense within the context of the story. It doesn't, however, usually make much sense in terms of the author's narrative, and that disconnect eternally irks me. In short, go bad guys.

How does it not make sense if you don't mind me asking? I have yet to see any error with characters surviving in believable ways for that universe's rules. And I'm up to Chapter 107.

[Lithp]

Here's what I don't get about the "main character dying just makes sense" argument: It seems to forget that people DO survive events like wars. It's not "unbelievable" if they survive even improbable events. We might not be satisfied with minor characters, but really, applying context, they don't KNOW they're major or minor characters. Granted, the 50 million Amestrians was a stretch, but how would you come back from that?

That being said, coming close to dying demonstrates that it can & will happen, especially in a series that has killed off some main names. Hell, just going by your definition, Hughes totally counts.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Hughes was partially main character by the time of his death.

[Lithp]

You guys are ball-busters.

[Magus]

You should probably put a spoiler tag over that, Kyanbu, someone may still be unaware of that if they are starting the series now.

Hughes' death was basically required for Roy's character to have a catalyst for action/dynamism. I don't want to say that Hughes existed solely to be killed as a plot device to logically drive Roy's motivations...but well, yeah, he was. Obviously the author fleshed him out so he wasn't just a lame stock character but probably from before she started drawing it she had that character in mind and knew she was going to kill him off to make the other character do things. On the flip side we know that several main characters were decided from the beginning to survive the series the whole way to the end and whose story arcs were highly planned.

Whereas characters like Fu or Buccaneer were probably developed much later and their fates were more malleable from the beginning. I'm not even sure if any of the Xingese or Briggs' folk were thought up ahead of the first issue or if they were thought up later, as they're all pretty ancillary and the plot could have been done without them. Not done in the same way with all the same events, but the major arc of the plot never required their presence.

[Lithp]

The problem, as I see it, is that these conditions are completely impossible to meet. Even if Ed, Al, & Roy themselves died, no matter what, you could still find some way to make this argument work. If the series ended, it wouldn't matter. If the series went on, they were only fleshed-out plot devices. In that case, I guess this is right: No main character has ever died. In anything. And they never will.

[Magus]

I'd say if they didn't die involved somehow in the finale of series, I'd say they weren't a main character. Obviously there are lots of things where the main character dies right at the end but if they died a fourth of the way in you probably wouldn't ascribe them main character status, they'd pretty much have to be secondary.

So if they die somewhere near the climax of the series and had some other attributes of a "main" character (like the main conflict is deeply intertwined with that character), then they were a main character, yeah.

[Lithp]

Which is exactly why this argument is self-defeating. By those very standards, you can't have a main character that just dies halfway through. It's completely contradictory to your definition of what makes a main character!

I don't know if this is what the originator of the debate feels, but I'm sure that it's similar enough to have highlighted at least a few problems with his complaint.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I haven't read it all the way through but. There is a manga called PLUTO which was basically a very dark astro boy with a different grown lead named Gesicht, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Pluto) who died more then 11 chapters before the story even ended. (the manga isn't all that long). despite this he's still treated as the main even though he died a good ways before the end. Mostly because his death had a great deal of an effect on the remainder of the story.

The point to this being that it is possible to kill off the lead[ and still finish the story with out it feeling random/sloppy so long as its done during the last/second to last arc and/or has an impact on the story's ending. Though I have no idea if this was even worth mentioning given the self-defeating argument.

[Kim]

Which is exactly why this argument is self-defeating. By those very standards, you can't have a main character that just dies halfway through. It's completely contradictory to your definition of what makes a main character!

I'm writing a story where that very thing happens in the beginning of the second book. It totally works.

[ZAKtheGeek]

How does it not make sense if you don't mind me asking? I have yet to see any error with characters surviving in believable ways for that universe's rules. And I'm up to Chapter 107.
Well, I sarcastically implied my reasoning already. Basically, I don't believe Hawkeye is talented enough to defend herself from such an attack, not to mention she's got a big bloody wound that now seems to be completely ignored. Bullet-dodging has been shown to be possible, to boot, though it seems like that shouldn't even matter much, given that no one even has time to get any alchemy off.

Here's what I don't get about the "main character dying just makes sense" argument: It seems to forget that people DO survive events like wars. It's not "unbelievable" if they survive even improbable events. We might not be satisfied with minor characters, but really, applying context, they don't KNOW they're major or minor characters. Granted, the 50 million Amestrians was a stretch, but how would you come back from that?

That being said, coming close to dying demonstrates that it can & will happen, especially in a series that has killed off some main names. Hell, just going by your definition, Hughes totally counts.
Sure, that counts. But that's, like, the only example.

I don't discount them dying at the end of the story as "not counting," either.

I see what you mean with the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of scenario. Let's just take the stereotypical example of a tyrannical empire and the story of some scrappy rebel. This rebel gets pretty far in his attack on the empire but then he's overwhelmed by its massive power and killed. Well, that's a pretty crappy story. Alternatively, he doesn't die, and eventually completes his rebellion and brings down the empire. But he's just a lone rebel, and the empire's so powerful! Well, it had to happen, or else the story was pointless.

Maybe, but that's the author's fault. If you make a villain overly powerful, it doesn't give license for the plot to ignore that power for the sake of the hero's victory. They're clearly just winning because they're the "force of good" and the one you're supposed to be rooting for; I know the whole time they'll win, but the reason I stay aboard is precisely because the villain is so powerful and I'd like to know how they could possibly lose. Contradicting their earlier depictions of power basically means the whole hook of the story was a big lie; its only appeal then is the thematic element, which I personally rarely give a shit about, especially if it's something as boring as "tyranny is bad" (and it might not be, I'm just saying). In fact, even the "good lesson" being taught is watered down, because the conclusion is powered by sheer illogic. You can't take down a powerful evil solely by virtue of being good. It just doesn't work that way. That's a lousy lesson.

tl;dr oftentimes the "message" overpowers and sort of logic and I think that's bullshit because the logical parts are the primary appeal for me.

[Lithp]

That's why I liked Ichigo vs. Ulquiorra in Bleach. Ichigo was clearly outmatched. He couldn't even hurt Ulquiorra, but he kept on fighting. Ulquiorra tried to convince him that this was futile & to give up, even blowing away the majority of his reitsu in a single blast. Despite this, Ichigo kept fighting, until he was eventually beaten to a pulp by Ulquiorra & killed. Even knowing what happened afterwards, that's still a pretty powerful scene. It's like the ultimate ragtag resistance goes wrong type scenario.

But see, I tend to think that whether or not you can kill off the main character depends on how you set it up. If you do it in a way that still has an emotionally satisfying ending, it should be fine. However, like I said, I think that's something you have to be preparing for basically the entire story. For example, there would have to be some significant instances of pessimism in Bleach or FMA for you to accept Aizen & Father winning, even at the expense of such well-developed characters.

So no, I am by no means saying that you can't kill a main character off earlier & make it work. I'm just saying, where do you draw the line? What measure is a main character? How many do you have to kill off? Et cetera.

[ZAKtheGeek]

"Main character" aren't even my words. I wrote "protagonist," and even there it was a slightly reckless shorthand, because a protagonist is usually the character with the thematically inevitably victory as well as the logically probable loss. All I'm's sayin' is, it should make sense who wins at stuff.

[Lithp]

Protagonists are main characters.

Anywho, I again have to note that improbable victories don't "not make sense," as they happen IRL as well.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Well, a freak accident doesn't tend to make for a compelling resolution. And, if it happens repeatedly, then it just becomes a contrivance.

And it's not always just "unlikely." Like there's this ability but for some unexplained reason it doesn't get used. I don't want to call that "impossible," so what I say is just that it doesn't make sense. Or, at least, that it's unsatisfying, because I was looking forward to seeing it be circumvented somehow, not just conveniently ignored.

[Lithp]

I think I can see what you're saying. Would these count as examples?

FMA: Father can transmute without moving, does not have human composition, is a big-ass Philosophers Stone, & recently ate God. The question on everyone's mind was, "How are they going to beat him?" To be fair, we did get some interesting strategies from Hohenheim & Scar, but ultimately, they seem to be relying on Phlebotinum Overload, just letting him absorb too much power & explode.

FFVI: Kefka, upon acheiving godhood, was shown to be able to negate magic. At the end of the game, he never uses any such ability.

FFVII: Sephiroth keeps losing to Cloud, despite being much stronger. This is explained as being mostly a fluke.

[ZAKtheGeek]

I think I can see what you're saying. Would these count as examples?

FMA: Father can transmute without moving, does not have human composition, is a big-ass Philosophers Stone, & recently ate God. The question on everyone's mind was, "How are they going to beat him?" To be fair, we did get some interesting strategies from Hohenheim & Scar, but ultimately, they seem to be relying on Phlebotinum Overload, just letting him absorb too much power & explode.

FFVI: Kefka, upon acheiving godhood, was shown to be able to negate magic. At the end of the game, he never uses any such ability.

FFVII: Sephiroth keeps losing to Cloud, despite being much stronger. This is explained as being mostly a fluke.
Sure. The first is actually the worst example, I'd say. I mean, Van Hohenheim is composed of almost as much bullshit as Homunculus himself, so in my eyes, they pretty much have free reign to make either of them do whatever they want and I can't really complain about it. If they invoked Hohenheim's powers more on the "good guy side," I'd really have a lot less to say, I think.

[Lithp]

Well, like I said, they did neutralize his alchemy blocking ability & come up with a countermeasure for the national transmutation circle, but on the other hand, I was actually looking for them to find some kind of weakness(es) of Father's & take advantage of it/them. On the plus side, at least it wasn't "he dissolves in light," like I thought she was going to do. So, yeah, the other 2 would be better examples, this one's just kind of half-&-half.

On a slight tangent, though, I think that Father's Stone is probably much bigger than Hohenheim's at this point, since he keeps making them.

(That's so hilariously innuendo-ish. Also, I wish there was a spoiler tag button.)

[ZAKtheGeek]

On a slight tangent, though, I think that Father's Stone is probably much bigger than Hohenheim's at this point, since he keeps making them.

(That's so hilariously innuendo-ish. Also, I wish there was a spoiler tag button.)
Well, he keeps using them, too. I can only imagine how much was wasted on that useless mannequin army. And the homunculus brigade too, I suppose, although at least that one seems like a good investment.

[Lithp]

To be fair, the army was experimental. I'm sure they would be much more of a threat if they were like the similar concept of zombie soldiers that was used in Conqueror of Shamballa.

[phil_]

I wish there was a spoiler tag button.You could just type [ss] instead of [spoiler]. It's not quite the same, but it'll help.

Full! Metal! Alchemist!

Fullmetal Alchemist.

[bluestarultor]

Also, I wish there was a spoiler tag button.

There is. ;)

-> http://i28.tinypic.com/s4ys5x.gif

Unless you're using the Quick Reply at the bottom of the page.

[Lithp]

I am using the quick reply at the bottom of the page. Also, I don't entirely like the direction the manga chose to go for its final battle.

[Kim]

Latest ep was good. Didn't feel like as much was accomplished in this episode as in much of the other recent ones, but it was still quite enjoyable. We've got six episodes or so left? Not sure if they can conclude the plot in that amount of time but I wish them luck.

[Magus]

On protagonists: if you kill your "main character" off at the beginning of the second book, I am going to come out and say that he is not the protagonist of that particular book. I'm sure he was the protagonist of the first one but he is not going to be the protagonist of the second by dint of the fact that he's barely in it. Unless it's a cool plot device where some seemingly insignificant thing that he did in the first few chapters before dying ends up saving the day at the end, that is always cool. Not sure if he'd still be the "main character" but he'd definitely be one of the most important secondary characters. Unfortunately this usually leads to people saying it was Deus Ex Machina because you remove the ending of the conflict from the hands of the protagonist.

Killing off the main character at the beginning of the second book brings up interesting questions, though, such as "who is the main character of the series?" At this point, I guess we'd have to say there is more than one. It still seems like the category of "main character" or "protagonist" should be kept to as few characters as possible for the sake of organization and relevance.

On FMA:

Father's stone is less than Hohenheim's at this point, due to all the stuff he's been doing, that is why Father looked older than Hohenheim. It doesn't really make sense that that is the fact, of course, but that's my reasoning for why Father had a more wrinkled face.

The impression given however is that 500,000 souls is a ridiculously large amount and you can basically do infinite amounts of things over the course of several centuries and you'll still only use up like 10,000 of them, though.

In any case, the current strategy of wearing down Father's shell by making him use power in worthless attacks made much more realistic sense than tackling him head on. Huge epic battle where they traded blows wouldn't have made more sense. Obviously there are very good "coincidences" where they survive Father's fruitless attacks (everyone surviving the energy beam at the end of Chapter 106, for example), but the overall strategy makes way more sense than an actual fight.

Would an actual fight be more satisfying? Probably. I don't think you can say what the author is doing is less realistic though.

Also Kefka never negated magic. He stood in the center of the balanced statues when Gestahl attacked him and supposedly they absorbed the magic directed at Kefka. It didn't really have anything to do with Kefka's later achievement of god power from putting them out of balance and absorbing the energy.

[Lithp]

Father: I think people look way too deeply into the fact that he looks older. The fact is that the main difference between Hohenheim's face & Father's is that Father is always scowling. If you're doing that all of the time, of course you're going to look a bit different. Greed does say he's gotten older, but that was probably just a taunt &, technically, he is older, regardless of whether or not he physically ages. But, anyway, we haven't been told that his stone is smaller since he keeps making more, I'd say it's probably bigger. Although really, it's anyone's guess.

Strategy: Except for the question of why Father doesn't just disintegrate them, it does make sense. I have 2 basic problems with it, though. 1. Phlebotinum Overload is a really lame way to take down a villain. Imagine if Kefka had just plain died at the Floating Continent because of his absorbtion of the Warring Triad. It would make sense, but it would be anticlimactic as Hell. 2. It feels really messy & disorganized. As for the energy beam, that did kind of bother me. I mean, seriously, it ripped through Central HQ like butter. I find it a stretch that Al's body could have survived & how in the world did Ed not die?

Kefka: If the statues can absorb magic, then it logically follows that someone with their power can also absorb magic. Either way, I was looking for examples of how a heroic victory doesn't altogether make sense. And you have to admit that, compared to other villains in the series, there is absolutely no attempt to explain how they could have defeated something that powerful. CoD-Had to be weakened by the self-sacrifice of the Dark Warriors. Zeromus-Had to be weakened by a crystal. Exdeath-The previous Light Warriors had to hold back his Void power & then he was consumed by the Void. Sephiroth-Doesn't take fights seriously due to his own arrogance. Sin-Had its shell blasted through, then was weakened by having Yu Yevon possess the summons.

[Magus]

There were like 14 of them and even within the plot I think you're supposed to see their leveling as them gaining pretty massively in magical power through the acquiring of Espers and so forth, not just as a gameplay device. It's actually somewhat more satisfying than "Kefka is weakened by such and such plot device to allow him to be destroyed" if you think about it as the characters actually building up their strength enough that their power combined can take him down (which plays into the them of love and friendship and perseverance conquering evil or whatever).

I think you misinterpreted some of the other ones (Sin for example is simply an armored shell for Yu Yevon, who is so weak he has to parasitically attach himself to summons. Since you destroy the current summon and then turn all the other summons in the world to stone, he no longer has anything to attach himself to and dies) but I think it's less satisfying when some deus ex machina shows up and saves the day. Unfortunately, if you've overpowered the foe of the heroes, it becomes less realistic for them to accomplish the feat of defeating the foe themselves.

Is Father being unable to hold in the power of God being his downfall not satisfying? Not really. The alchemical circle they discovered and set off is what subtracted the souls from him, making him too weak to hold it in. They are directly responsible for his weakness...although it might be less satisfying because the people responsible (Scar, Hohenheim, Marcoh) are not the two main protagonists (Ed and Al), so I guess you could argue the weakening of the foe is from an outside force (kind of like FFV), allowing him to be defeated, instead of from the main characters, so it can be less satisfying. It just seems like a direct fight would be unrealistic at this point, since unlike in say FF there is no plot basis for someone's alchemy becoming more powerful and overwhelming or something, outside of using souls for greater feats of strength which the protagonists want to avoid.

[Lithp]

Kefka: Excuse the bluntness, but that is a massive cop-out & I hate it when people use it. It is not a neat or interesting plot device, nor does it make sense. Kefka is the God of Magic. Literally, he is the God of All Magic. And people expect me to believe that he can be defeated by just gaining enough magic? The Gods he absorbed CREATED the Espers, I cannot believe that they would be enough to realistically destroy him.

Which is why I theorize that the final battle is Suicide By Cop, but that's another matter entirely.

Sin I didn't "misinterpret" at all....

Father: It is unsatisfying, but not because of the characters who do it. I think Sarda said it best:

"No way. I am Sarda. I am omnipotent. I am older than the universe. I will not be outdone by some amateur hour horseshit like absorbing too much power & exploding. I am Sarda. My will be done."

Phlebotinum Overload is a really lame way to take down a villain. It would be much more satisfying if they, in steps, figured out how to remove his god powers from the equation, how to weaken him, & then how to destroy him using alchemy. I find it odd that you complain about Deus Ex Machina in other areas when that's basically what this is. Now, it was alright with Sarda because the fight was already over when he bit the big one.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Kefka: Excuse the bluntness, but that is a massive cop-out & I hate it when people use it. It is not a neat or interesting plot device, nor does it make sense. Kefka is the God of Magic. Literally, he is the God of All Magic. And people expect me to believe that he can be defeated by just gaining enough magic? The Gods he absorbed CREATED the Espers, I cannot believe that they would be enough to realistically destroy him.

Which is why I theorize that the final battle is Suicide By Cop, but that's another matter entirely.

Sin I didn't "misinterpret" at all....

Father: It is unsatisfying, but not because of the characters who do it. I think Sarda said it best:

"No way. I am Sarda. I am omnipotent. I am older than the universe. I will not be outdone by some amateur hour horseshit like absorbing too much power & exploding. I am Sarda. My will be done."

Phlebotinum Overload is a really lame way to take down a villain. It would be much more satisfying if they, in steps, figured out how to remove his god powers from the equation, how to weaken him, & then how to destroy him using alchemy. I find it odd that you complain about Deus Ex Machina in other areas when that's basically what this is. Now, it was alright with Sarda because the fight was already over when he bit the big one.

The problem I have with writing a God villain is that unless the heroes them selves are gods. There is no way for the villain to lose that won't still be a Dues Ex Machina in the end. Him being able to be de-powered is a Duex Ex Machina because it wouldn't make sense for him to be able to be weaken as he would have known about and dealt with said weakness.

I've written my self into a corner that way before and no amount of help could change the fact that I screwed my self over doing that with a one shot villain. Theres no way for the protagonists to even survive let alone win with out applying a form of Duex Ex Machina.

It's usually unavoidable.

[Lithp]

I don't really mind Deus Ex Machina, I'm just saying that what they're doing to Father totally is one...or 3.

As a side note, ever think of a plot device & then literally be unable to figure out how to beat it? It's a strange moment.

To get off-topic (or perhaps more on-topic), I wonder how Father is going to go out. Is he going to be spared? Is he going to go out in a sad way, like Envy, or sadistic & cruel to the end, like Lust? If any of the homunculi are spared, how would they go about fitting in with the world?

[Kim]

As a side note, ever think of a plot device & then literally be unable to figure out how to beat it? It's a strange moment.

Done that with a character who is sort of villain/ally/something. Makes complete and total sense for him to be as strong as he is, so I'm having trouble thinking of a non-McGuffin way of the hero getting strong enough to beat him. I have one idea but I'm not fond of it, so I might just have the hero stayed allied with the bad guy to the very end.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Oh, so they weren't actually trying to kill anyone. That actually makes sense now!

[Lithp]

Who wasn't trying to kill anyone? What makes sense now?

[ZAKtheGeek]

Who wasn't trying to kill anyone? What makes sense now?
The Wrath rejects. As you may recall, I was being a bitch about their failure to kill Hawkeye, but it turns out they were just trying to subdue her (and everyone else) so now my complaint is rendered moot.

On a related topic, why ain't Wrath healing?

[Lithp]

Wrath only consists of 1 soul.

As to the Wrath rejects, I never really saw your complaint in the first place. Team Mustang was having a decent amount of trouble with them & the one that "dodged bullets" basically just moved out of the way of the gun that was pointed right in his face.

What is confusing me is the latest episode of Brotherhood. Why did the doctor need to use the Wrath rejects to open the Gate? It doesn't make sense that they were a sacrifice, because they reappear right after he's done.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Wrath only consists of 1 soul.
WHY!??! As in, why the shit would they do it that way.

Was his Wrathening any different than the Greedening? I assumed they were pretty much the same thing, and we see Greed healing in this very episode.

As to the Wrath rejects, I never really saw your complaint in the first place. Team Mustang was having a decent amount of trouble with them & the one that "dodged bullets" basically just moved out of the way of the gun that was pointed right in his face.
At the time it seemed like their victory would just take a bit of time. They were making kills while not getting killed back. And, okay, not "dodge bullets" but "avoid being aimed at." Same thing, effectively.

What is confusing me is the latest episode of Brotherhood. Why did the doctor need to use the Wrath rejects to open the Gate? It doesn't make sense that they were a sacrifice, because they reappear right after he's done.
Well maybe they were just supposed to shield him while yeah I have no idea.

I'm actually pretty surprised no one's killed the doc yet. Haven't they heard? (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/09/21/)

[Lithp]

Wrath: It seems to be some anomaly that is specific to Wrath. His Philosophers Stone originally consisted of more than one & there was also the human soul. However, somehow, when the fight for dominance was over, "only one soul remained" & Wrath himself couldn't even figure out whose it was.

Soldiers: No, they were definitely used in the transmutation. Actually, I think they would have killed the doctor, were they not having so much trouble with the soldiers.

[Premmy]

WHY!??! As in, why the shit would they do it that way.

Was his Wrathening any different than the Greedening? I assumed they were pretty much the same thing, and we see Greed healing in this very episode.
Well, Wrath was created to be the most human, and thus least suspicious, homunculus, So he needed to be able to age. Whatever factor makes Homunculus regenerate pretty obviously also gives them their long life, so it stands to reason that a homunculus that ages also can't heal,it also makes the power he has make a lot of sense, they needed a method to keep him alive, so offensive powers are out, they needed something that wouldn't scream "I'M NOT HUMAN!" so Greed's power wasn't available, and his eye had fallen out during the transformation, so it was an easy choice.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Wrath: It seems to be some anomaly that is specific to Wrath. His Philosophers Stone originally consisted of more than one & there was also the human soul. However, somehow, when the fight for dominance was over, "only one soul remained" & Wrath himself couldn't even figure out whose it was.
Oh. I forgot that.

Soldiers: No, they were definitely used in the transmutation.
That's why I have no idea.

Actually, I think they would have killed the doctor, were they not having so much trouble with the soldiers.
Well, seriously wounded him. They probably wouldn't kill just like that, especially since he has no apparent fighting ability. And it's not like I don't get it, but I'm just saying, I would have found it very believable if they popped a shot off at him in the middle of everything. Especially during the "stop what you're doing and come here" period.

Well, Wrath was created to be the most human, and thus least suspicious, homunculus, So he needed to be able to age. Whatever factor makes Homunculus regenerate pretty obviously also gives them their long life, so it stands to reason that a homunculus that ages also can't heal,it also makes the power he has make a lot of sense, they needed a method to keep him alive, so offensive powers are out, they needed something that wouldn't scream "I'M NOT HUMAN!" so Greed's power wasn't available, and his eye had fallen out during the transformation, so it was an easy choice.
Oh. I guess that makes sense. Really inelegant way to achieve aging, though...

I'm not even sure what his power is exactly. That he can perceive with very high temporal resolution? Critically, he can also react and move just as quickly, and I would think the former ability is a subset of the latter. I don't really get why they play the eye up so much. That'd be a bit like if they had a lot to say about Mustang having the special talent of being able to snap his fingers quickly.

[Lithp]

I'm not entirely sure what the eye's limits are, but you can think of it like the Sharingan from Naruto in the first part, before it got all of those ridiculous powers. Even though Wrath definitely has superhuman fighting abilities, the eye is definitely his main ability. I mean, the guy can literally see bullets to cut them & alchemy in mid-transmutation.

[ZAKtheGeek]

I'm not entirely sure what the eye's limits are, but you can think of it like the Sharingan from Naruto in the first part, before it got all of those ridiculous powers. Even though Wrath definitely has superhuman fighting abilities, the eye is definitely his main ability. I mean, the guy can literally see bullets to cut them & alchemy in mid-transmutation.
I'm just saying, the main ability there seems to be the cutting and not the seeing. In fact, just seeing by itself seems pretty worthless unless you can act on it. Of course, being able to move quickly enough but not perceive at that rate would also be suboptimal, but intuitively (to me at least) action lags behind perception and never the other way around. I'm not sure how they could even demonstrate a character who could act faster than their own perception; basically as far as any second or third party would be concerned, their action resolution would just be capped by their perceptive resolution, and there'd be no way to tell which is the limiting factor.

Oh, unless I'm supposed to believe that it's really not very hard at all to slice bullets in midflight if only they could be seen there? I mean, that would... kinda make sense. Almost. Just barely.

[Lithp]

In my opinion, given the ultimate eye, given that he's a homunculus, & given that his swords could be made of some superior alloy, it makes sense. But, as you said, only just.

But the specific description of the ultimate eye's power is something along the lines of seeing "all possible scenarios of a situation."

As for the main ability factor, I have a comparison:

In the game Final Fantasy Tactics, there are a number of skillsets that require swords to pull off. These are typically ranged magic-style moves, such as bringing down a lightning bolt on the enemy.

Now, even though these skills can't be used without a sword, & so in a way they could be said to be passive, the ability to use the sword is by no means the class's main strength. There are a ton of clases in that game that can use swords.

You see what I'm saying?

[Premmy]

I don't know for sure, But I DO believe homunculi have super-human physical, or at least peak human physical abilities to begin with, similar to how almost(barring the case in point) all homunculi have regeneration and longevity, so it stands to reason that their unique abilities are what allows them to do the things they do, As an example Sloth can't really control himself when moving at super-human speed, simply because he has nothing besides his superior physical abilities and regeneration to facilitate his use of it.

Wrath, being able to see everything, basically(possibly an eye that changes to view whatever he needs to see) then puts into action his standard homunculi physical abilities.

Finally, this is anime, so the bar for what is possible by human standards is already skewed, just Look at Lin yao and company.

[ZAKtheGeek]

But the specific description of the ultimate eye's power is something along the lines of seeing "all possible scenarios of a situation."
Well, now, see, I didn't know that. That, uh, it... I have no idea what to make of that. I guess maybe he can see which things he can and can't pull off, and doesn't even bother to try the impossible stuff. So maybe some people could slice bullets, but it's too risky to try; Wrath, on the other hand, knows which ones he has a chance to slice.

As for the main ability factor, I have a comparison:

In the game Final Fantasy Tactics, there are a number of skillsets that require swords to pull off. These are typically ranged magic-style moves, such as bringing down a lightning bolt on the enemy.

Now, even though these skills can't be used without a sword, & so in a way they could be said to be passive, the ability to use the sword is by no means the class's main strength. There are a ton of clases in that game that can use swords.

You see what I'm saying?
I'm not sure? Is this supposed to be similar to or different from what I said? Because to me it sounds similar.

I don't know for sure, But I DO believe homunculi have super-human physical, or at least peak human physical abilities to begin with, similar to how almost(barring the case in point) all homunculi have regeneration and longevity, so it stands to reason that their unique abilities are what allows them to do the things they do, As an example Sloth can't really control himself when moving at super-human speed, simply because he has nothing besides his superior physical abilities and regeneration to facilitate his use of it.
Alright... I guess.

Finally, this is anime, so the bar for what is possible by human standards is already skewed, just Look at Lin yao and company.
Oh yeah. Like crazy.

[Premmy]

Plus, if you recall, he was trained, conditioned, and possibly even medicated from birth to be an ultimate warrior, so, even if he DIDN'T have super homunculus kung-fu, he'd still have KIIIIIIIINGGGGMUTHAFUCKINBRADLEY kung-fu.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Plus, if you recall, he was trained, conditioned, and possibly even medicated from birth to be an ultimate warrior, so, even if he DIDN'T have super homunculus kung-fu, he'd still have KIIIIIIIINGGGGMUTHAFUCKINBRADLEY kung-fu.
Sure. And recently we've seen what that would be like. But he'd still be human, so I wouldn't get how his power is not this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/ZAKtheGeek/theking.png) but the ability to see some shit. But homunculi are weird by definition, so... yeah.

[Premmy]

Man when I read that It blew my skull out, thankfully the fro caught the brains

I think you need to look at it like this, Gluttony can move in ways that are straight-up impossible for his size and shape, but that's not his "Super Power" that's like a normal human running aroundby homunculus standards, his "power" is his eating and such.

As mentoned before, he has Sliced alchemy and bullets before, so his sight defintely augments his abilities signifigantly enough to make a lot of the things he does possible where just the physical ability alone wouldn't

[Amake]

Protagonists are main characters.
Just a side note, but they're not. A protagonist is a force on the side of the audience while a main character is someone who is central to the story. Apocalypse Now provides a good example of how they can be divided: Kurtz is the main character and the antagonist, while the protagonist Willard rates a far second despite given maybe five times more screen time.

Welp, manga's almost probably over, I don't remember when I last felt so much anticipation. . .does anyone know when ch. 108 is due?

[Lithp]

A protagonist (from the Greek ????????????? protagonistes, "one who plays the first part, chief actor"[1]) is the main character (the central or primary personal figure) of a literary, theatrical, cinematic, video game, or musical narrative, around whom the events of the narrative's plot revolve and with whom the audience is intended to share the most empathy. In the theatre of Ancient Greece, three actors played all of the main dramatic roles in a tragedy; the leading role was played by the protagonist, while the other roles were played by deuteragonist and the tritagonist.

*Cough.*

Anywho, I more-or-less agree with Premonitions. As for my example, think about it like this:

The skillset of the character is analogous to Bradley's Ultimate Eye. The sword is analogous, quite fittingly, to Bradley's swordskills.

The sword is NOT the main power, it merely facilitates the use of the main power.

I'm not sure whether or not this is dissimilar to what you were getting at.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Anywho, I more-or-less agree with Premonitions. As for my example, think about it like this:

The skillset of the character is analogous to Bradley's Ultimate Eye. The sword is analogous, quite fittingly, to Bradley's swordskills.

The sword is NOT the main power, it merely facilitates the use of the main power.

I'm not sure whether or not this is dissimilar to what you were getting at.
Oh, I interpreted it the other way around. You need a sword (the eye) to do the skills (slicing bullets holy shit).

But whatever, I'm really tired of discussing tattooed eyeballs. Just say "homunculus" and then I will say "ok u win" and then we move on.

[Lithp]

Unfortunately, that's pretty much how it works.

I would like to note that I'm still butthurt over Pride's abilities.

[Magus]

I thought he actually literally saw the future of whatever he's looking at up to like a second before it happens, myself. I think that was how they explained his power in something or other (may have been a mistranslation from some fan scanlation, though)...

Seeing all the possible scenarios ahead of time instantaneously would make more sense, though, than bringing seeing the future into it.

Yeah, Chapter 108 should come out next month, pretty sure it's supposed to be the last one (unless she thinks an epilogue wouldn't be breaking the 108 rule). Seems like it's always after the 10th that the scanlations come out, at least on the site I look at.

As for being butthurt over Pride's abilities and their not making any physical sense, remember that for all intents and purposes, as far as who created him, a wizard did, indeed, do it. The author can always fall back on that explanation!

[Lithp]

But he's not a wizard, he's just a mad chemist blood monster thing. >.>

Anywho, I think that, with Wrath, you're safe with "he sees shit really well."

[Magus]

1. Guy wears robes.

2. Does all kinds of necromantic voodoo shit.

3. Alchemy, which is kind of like chemistry but is all mystical and uses magic circles and stuff.

He's pretty wizardly! When he got around to tossing around tornadoes and lightning it kind of went up a step, too, since I wasn't even sure how alchemy came into that (I guess altering the air pressure in the room, and hot and cold fronts? Increasing the electrons in the air?)

I think the future thing that I read really meant to say "sees all possible future actions someone can take" so it's not exactly the same as seeing the future, so yeah, "he sees shit really well" is a good enough description for me.

[Lithp]

Anything that alters the natural world is alchemy. The tornado actually didn't impress me that much, seeing as Al did it in the movie. Granted, his was much smaller, but still.

[Premmy]

Didn't that girl Lyra make tornado/explosions with a little necklace?

[ZAKtheGeek]

Didn't that girl Lyra make tornado/explosions with a little necklace?
HEAT BEAM AIR BLAST!!

[Lithp]

"She liquefied the air around her, reduced its volume, & created a shockwave. The heat & light came from the energy needed to maintain entropy."

Yeah. I know way too many lines from the 1st anime by heart. Disregarding that, though, it is air alchemy, but it's on a much smaller scale & is not a tornado. Actually, in some ways, it's closer to what Roy does.

But basically, it's just a blast of directed, superheated air.

[Amake]

around whom the events of the narrative's plot revolve and with whom the audience is intended to share the most empathy
See, in our modern days writers have trigged there's no rule saying those two things have to be applied to the same character, as Apocalypse Now demonstrates. Unless you're Barney Stinson and empathize with Kurtz. . .

[Lithp]

See, in our modern days writers have trigged there's no rule saying those two things have to be applied to the same character, as Apocalypse Now demonstrates. Unless you're Barney Stinson and empathize with Kurtz. . .

Bottomline: Arguing with something as concrete as the definition & etymology of the word is just beating a dead horse. The protagonist is the main character. Your "correction" was not correct.

[Premmy]

words are about as concrete as science inside Reed Richards's head.

[Amake]

You're saying that the most important character in a story cannot be separate from the character the audience should feel the most for? If not, then what's the words you'd use to separate them?

"Protagonist" for "audience advocate" works pretty well for me, even if it comes from a confusion of Greek and Latin 75 years ago (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=protagonist).

[Kim]

Bottomline: Arguing with something as concrete as the definition & etymology of the word is just beating a dead horse. The protagonist is the main character. Your "correction" was not correct.

Fun fact: the definition of any word is far from concrete.

[Lithp]

Removing the sugary coating from my speech, I'm saying that a protagonist is, by definition, a main character, & that arguing with that without some kind of similar linguistic evidence is pretty much a waste of time.

[Amake]

...some kind of similar linguistic evidence. Kinda like how people have been using a different definition since 1935?

Yeah I guess I edited that part in my last post while you were writing yours, so I don't fault you for missing it. Got a little edit-crazy there. Anyway, you need an argument :)

[Lithp]

The argument is provided by the definitions themselves.

1671, "principal main character in a story, drama, etc.," from Gk. protagonistes "actor who plays the chief or first main part," from protos "first" (see proto-) + agonistes "actor, competitor," from agon "contest" (see act). Meaning "leading main person in any cause or contest" is from 1889. Mistaken sense of "advocate, supporter" (1935) is from misreading of Gk. protos as L. pro- "for."

Emphasized synonyms added by me.

EDIT: Wait, I see what you're going for. Well, that's cool & all, but it doesn't seem to be the main definition anyway. It's not what Wiki is using & Merriam-Websters lists it as the 2nd definition with "principle character" as the 1st.

[Amake]

No, but it's a definition. We need something to distinguish between the two concepts, which I'm noticing you do not disagree with.

We're making up language as needed, here. If you don't like my ideas, let's hear some of yours. We can work something out rather than treading over the same bits of the dictionary over and over.

[Lithp]

See, here's the thing: I just reacted to a claim made against a statement of mine. I don't really focus on theoretical language. I'm in the here & now until someone decides to officially change the word.

Although Wiki talks about "false protagonists," which I think is what you're getting at, if you want a term to use.

[Amake]

I guess we agree the two parts of audience proxy and story driver don't need to be played by the same character then. That's all I cared about. :I

[Lithp]

Yeah, I'd say that's true. And I only cared about the technical definition of "protagonist." Don't you just love it when something works out?

[ZAKtheGeek]

More amazing President Fuhrer action. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/ZAKtheGeek/owned.png)

In terms of actual discussion regarding the latest, what did they physically take? A few nerves? Pfeh. He should have lost his whole face. That'd be cool.

[Lithp]

Logistically, Roy could not have lost a physical body part, at least not in the same way Ed, Al, & Izumi did. I don't understand why she didn't just have his eyes ripped out. Then again, nothing about Truth makes sense. Its ironic punishments don't really apply if you bleed to death & all.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Roy lost his sight. He can never see again.

[ZAKtheGeek]

He's totally faking being blind to hide the loss of his precious genitals. Now there's an ironic punishment. And don't even tell me it's too close to Izumi. IT'S NOT. THE SAME. THING.

[Lithp]

"But...the bloodstain on his pants...."
"Shh! Poor Colonel...& I thought losing my body was bad...."
"On the plus side, I bet he knows more alchemy than Father now."
"IT WASN'T WORTH IT!"

[Magus]

Maybe he lost his optic nerves or something? There could be a body part loss in there somewhere...

Frankly, I never understood (and it was never explained) how they forced him to open the gate at all. Yeah, yeah, it took most of Pride's philosopher stone or whatever but it was never really explained why Pride was able to do it in the first place, make someone transmute.

Also the way Truth assigns body part loss is meant to be ironic, though seemingly only in three of the five cases: Ed is a pun on "I'd give an arm and a leg for...etc.", Izumi lost her reproductive organs trying to transmute her baby (clearest irony), and Roy won't be able to see the new country he is creating (kind of hard to see the irony here, but that's people's best guess). Al and Hohenheim, not really ironic (I'm not even sure what Hohenheim's "loss" is supposed to be at all, though I guess he technically lost his whole body since his current one is a constructed one...)

[ZAKtheGeek]

It's MAGIC! Like in the first anime, where people are sent through the gate by a baby?

Why can't homunculi do alchemy? First anime's got this covered. Or is it going to be revealed later?

[Lithp]

Pride: Since when have rules applied for it?

Gate: The baby thing made perfect sense. "When people are close to birth or death, they have a closer attraction to the Gate."

Homunculi: The 1st anime really didn't have it covered, since it heavily implied that the "no soul" thing was never true to begin with. I say that either the Homunculi don't have a complete enough soul or Father just said, "No alchemy for you."

Sacrifice: Al's was "can no longer feel the warmth he wanted." And my point was that if certain events didn't happen, like Ed being outfitted with automail, these punishments would not work, because the characters would just plain be dead. Which is why Roy couldn't have lost a physical body part. There's no blood & he didn't even feel anything wrong with his eyes. If he did lose one, it had to be in a manner separate from the usual "rip it out of you" thing the Gate typically employs. As for Father/Hohenheim, remember, Truth's a dick. They "sacrificed" plenty of bodies, the bodies just weren't their own. Not sure about Father, but Hohenheim's immortality could be considered something of an ironic punishment. He saw a chance to get freedom & knowledge & he got it in spades.

[phil_]

Frankly, I never understood (and it was never explained) how they forced him to open the gate at all. Yeah, yeah, it took most of Pride's philosopher stone or whatever but it was never really explained why Pride was able to do it in the first place, make someone transmute.Actually, having watched this jank yesterday, the anime actually does explain the how and why of Pride being able to force Roy to do a human transmutation. See, Pride absorbed the wacky doctor guy (who knew how to do human transmutation) similarly to how he absorbed Gluttony. He got Gluttony's nose; he got Dr. Crazy Pants' knowledge of human transmutation. It was then a matter of setting up a circle with his powers where anyone touching is was a participant (like, say, Ed and Al's "Let's bring back Mom" circle), set Crazy Pants as the target, and tell Wrath to get his keister out of it. Bam, Pride and Roy share the cost of a human transmutation, with Roy losing his sight and Pride losing most of his souls.

The short version is "It makes sense to me, now."Why can't homunculi do alchemy? First anime's got this covered. Or is it going to be revealed later?Sorta related to the above spoilers, they probably can. Just, why bother when you already have super-powers? It's either spend years learning how to draw a complicated circle and activate it and then doing so in battle, or turn into a giant monster and get stomping: one has more immediate benefits.

[Lithp]

That kind of works, but the series seems to indicate everywhere else that you have to will an alchemic reaction to take place to be the cause of it. You could still be caught in a rebound, but that's not exactly what the Gate is.

Of course, this could all be justified with "Truth's a dick" again. I feel that's a very multi-purpose logic. In fact, why hasn't the focus of this series been killing that asshole? He's debatably worse than Father.

[ZAKtheGeek]

And my point was that if certain events didn't happen, like Ed being outfitted with automail, these punishments would not work, because the characters would just plain be dead.
Are you trying to talk about Al instead? I doubt Ed needed automail to survive (hell, he lived without it for a while); if anything, the automail pretty much negated his punishment. He can whine all he wants; he's a fucking cyborg.

With indestructible limbs.

Now Al is just fucking dead.

In fact, why hasn't the focus of this series been killing that asshole? He's debatably worse than Father.
Well, the focus hasn't been killing Father, either. Plus Truth seemed fair for a while apparently. All he really is, as far as has been shown so far, is a personification of equivalent exchange. Alchemists can't complain about that.

Although "killing Truth," or "beating the shit out of him," as suggested in an earlier episode, kinda pisses me off. It's Truth. At least symbolically, that's basically fighting logic itself. I guess what I kinda liked about this whole thing is that it starts out with a "no, it doesn't matter how much you want it, some things are just impossible and fuck you. Enjoy your limitations." Rather the opposite of the whole "force of will," "power of friendship" thing. And now we wanna kill Truth because we don't like the way things work. Sigh.

Disclaimer: I don't know crap about Truth. Don't go using spoilers to tell me I'm wrong.

[Lithp]

Al is not dead. As explained earlier in the series, he's just "taken." And Ed would have died had his wounds not been addressed. Technically, the automail comes later, but my memory isn't that great.

I'm pretty sure the focus has been on killing Father ever since he was introduced, really.

As for Truth, I doubt Ed will literally beat the shit out of him. That statement's just Ed being Ed. Either way, it's only "fair" in an extremely contrived sense of the word. Ed & Al were just kids when they did their transmutation & Mustang literally didn't do anything wrong. And why does he seem so sadistic about it, anyway?

On the other hand, something occurred to me: Maybe the reason Hohenheim & Father don't appear to have ironic punishments is because Truth hands them out for trying to revive the dead, not opening the Gate. Or maybe not, who knows?

[phil_]

On the other hand, something occurred to me: Maybe the reason Hohenheim & Father don't appear to have ironic punishments is because Truth hands them out for trying to revive the dead, not opening the Gate. Or maybe not, who knows?This is all spoilers about the last few chapters/the last episode of the anime. Roy's transmutation for which he received an unfair but ironic punishment was on a living human being, so no reviving the dead there. I don't claim to know what that means, but it refutes the "ironic punishments only for reviving the dead" idea.

[Premmy]

I think it's "Human transmuation in general" also, wasn't hawkeye about to die anyway?

[Lithp]

The doctor repeatedly tried to get Roy to revive a dead person. He did not even hint that there was another way to become a Human Sacrifice. Also, the doctor was likely deceased by the time he was transmuted.

On the other hand, people keep opening the Gate without invoking any sort of ironic punishment. Ed did it when he used it to get out of Gluttony's stomach. Father & Hohenheim at least seem to have done it in the flashback. Father did it again when he ate God, but one could argue that he just defeated it. All the same, the doctor did it when he used the Gate to transport the Sacrifices.

[Magus]

They used souls as the passage fee in all those instances. In the absence of souls you get stuff taken from you. Ed used some of Envy's philosopher's stone's souls to do that Gluttony thing. The doctor for example used five of the Not-Bradley's to do that little teleportation trick.

[Lithp]

They also were all not attempts to revive the dead. I think that's an important pattern to take note of, especially because of the insistence that trying to revive the dead is "stepping into God's territory."

[ZAKtheGeek]

Al is not dead. As explained earlier in the series, he's just "taken."
I actually have no idea how this works. If Ed hadn't bound his soul, would he just be a complete person chilling in the gate? I kind of assumed his soul was just sorta hanging around the "real world" for a bit right after his body disappeared, giving Ed a limited opportunity to capture it. I assumed it would just disappear without anything to attach to.

And Ed would have died had his wounds not been addressed. Technically, the automail comes later, but my memory isn't that great.
Well, yeah. Everyone would die if their wounds aren't treated.

I'm pretty sure the focus has been on killing Father ever since he was introduced, really.
Well... okay. I dunno. It doesn't seem very focused at all. Find out about this, find out about that, save the world, etc. Just whichever way the winds blow.

As for Truth, I doubt Ed will literally beat the shit out of him. That statement's just Ed being Ed.
Again, it's more the symbolic value of it. He wouldn't dare even joke about, "if you ever die I'll rip you out of the past and bring you back," or anything like that.

Either way, it's only "fair" in an extremely contrived sense of the word. Ed & Al were just kids when they did their transmutation & Mustang literally didn't do anything wrong.
Too bad? That's like that thing where "sometimes you work hard and don't get shit" was supposed to be a reasonable refutation of equivalent exchange. That's just thinking about it wrong. The intentions or state of mind of those involved aren't really relevant.

And why does he seem so sadistic about it, anyway?
Cuz he's a dick. :^p No, yeah, attaching a reasoning entity to it took away some of the "physical law" sense of it for me. Especially, I remember, in the first anime, where it seemed like they got to take what they wanted, not strictly that they had to or anything like that. The fact that Ed's limbs continued to exist and even returned as part of Wrath really just seemed to indicate they didn't need to be taken at all. They weren't "used up" for energy or something like that; a thing just took them because it could, under the guise of "equivalence."

Actually, Al has the same problem right now. Damn.

[Terex4]

I actually have no idea how this works. If Ed hadn't bound his soul, would he just be a complete person chilling in the gate? I kind of assumed his soul was just sorta hanging around the "real world" for a bit right after his body disappeared, giving Ed a limited opportunity to capture it. I assumed it would just disappear without anything to attach to.
I believe it was mentioned that Ed eats and sleeps more than normal in order to sustain Al's body even though he doesn't know it due to Al being kept away from the gate by Ed's blood. If it wasn't for the blood seal and Ed's support I think Al would have starved to death at the gate.

[ZAKtheGeek]

I believe it was mentioned that Ed eats and sleeps more than normal in order to sustain Al's body even though he doesn't know it due to Al being kept away from the gate by Ed's blood. If it wasn't for the blood seal and Ed's support I think Al would have starved to death at the gate.
That sounds like some crap he imagined to rationalize his feelings for Ed. But in any case, it doesn't address what would have happened if Al were never bonded to armor. What would have happened to his soul, specifically.

[phil_]

Regarding Al's soul and where it went when his body disappeared: It went into the freak-monster Ed and Al made in their basement. Al remembered being in the thing when he regained his memories of the gate. The reactions went: Ed and Al create a "human" from scratch except for a soul, which is provided by Al. Ed loses a leg. Ed, unaware of what happened to Al, performs another transmutation, moving Al's soul from the thing they created into the armor. This costs him his arm.

Review, people! How are you going to pass the test like this?

[Magus]

I think the question Zak is getting at is "what happens to people in FMA-verse when they die, if there is no intervention to bind their souls to the regular plane of existence?" The answer has been provided by the manga but not the anime (yet), so if you don't want it spoiled, don't read this:

MANGA SPOILERS: 'Truth' or 'God' is really the world's soul. Father ends up absorbing it into him. People when they die probably rejoin back up with this 'world soul' until they are reincarnated into some new life form. It's like, souls are energy or whatever so when people die the 'energy' that is their soul merges back with the world soul until they get reincarnated. It's kind of like the lifestream in FFVII, in my opinion. It creates the circle thing that Izumi is always going on about, how people are the one and the world is the all and life flows from one thing to the next in a cycle or whatever. Vaguely Buddhist.

I think that's it. If someone else has read the manga they could clarify if I'm off a bit.

[ZAKtheGeek]

No, actually, I wanted to know about Al's case specifically. Unless Al's case was that he died, but it wasn't.

Thanks, phil. I intend to cram, personally. When's this test, again?

Of course, that brings up questions about all the other human transmutations which have occurred. Or, just the one, I guess. Uh... one on both counts. Question and transmutation.

[Lithp]

Al's soul rejoined with his body at the Gate. They mention that the shared bodily functions thing is just a theory, but the emaciated form of Al's body seems to have confirmed it.

As for death in the FMA world, I believe the opposite is the case: The anime more-or-less confirmed that souls rejoin with the Gate but the manga hasn't said much on the subject at all, just that dead people can't ever come back. Which raises an interesting question: Is it beyond even God Father's (heh) abilities?

The first anime actually calls the Gate Hand things a rebound, but given Wrath's story, I imagine that the trade is theirs. Either way, in theory, had they not screwed it up, they could have had their mom back, so I don't see why they should bitch.

[ZAKtheGeek]

I wonder why Greed isn't really doing anything, and why May isn't dead. Oh, and why alchemy isn't turned off. I guess they slacked off on trying to deal with that threat so the villain slacked off in return. Not that it seems to matter any, of course.

The unprecedented quality of Pride that makes him hard to fight is that he's small? He doesn't even physically move in fighting like any other personoid ever. Yes, this is a typical little guy tactic... make spikes appear out of the fucking ground. Not headbutt to the balls or anything; magic spikes. And Ed (and most good guys, really) are constantly fighting new evil freaks of nature with all kinds of weirdo tricks up their sleeve, yet they can always adapt with ridiculous ease. So basically nothing about this little scene made any sense. Again, not that it matters.

Because the sky opened up. Shit's gettin' real. It's definitely anime time up in here. And thinking superglobally kinda reminds me of something I wrote (http://www.drunkduck.com/pyroicon/index.php?p=84975)...

[Lithp]

I wonder why Greed isn't really doing anything

What's he going to do? Hit it again?

and why May isn't dead.

I think this is a plausible explanation: Alchemy is supposed to work with scientific laws, correct? Well, one such law is that the effectiveness of a reaction depends on a surface area. Mei exposed very little of her body to Father, so the reaction wasn't as bad as it could have been, allowing her enough time to heal herself.

Or you could just go with the "he didn't really try" route. Either way.

Oh, and why alchemy isn't turned off.

He turns it off later.

I guess they slacked off on trying to deal with that threat so the villain slacked off in return.

It's shown how they deal with it later.

The unprecedented quality of Pride that makes him hard to fight is that he's small? He doesn't even physically move in fighting like any other personoid ever.

That only refers to this specific fight.

Yes, this is a typical little guy tactic... make spikes appear out of the fucking ground. Not headbutt to the balls or anything; magic spikes.

I'll give you this one. They did a piss poor job adapting this scene from the manga. First of all, the pauses for Pride to speak are WAY too long. Second of all, in the manga, it was obvious that Pride ducked under Ed's blow & retaliated. This then allowed Ed to do that headbutt thing.

And Ed (and most good guys, really) are constantly fighting new evil freaks of nature with all kinds of weirdo tricks up their sleeve, yet they can always adapt with ridiculous ease.

To be fair, the premise is that most of the characters are genius scientists.

Because the sky opened up. Shit's gettin' real.

Another scene I was disappointed in. IIRC, in the manga, the Gates actually close before Father can do his thing, but Father punches them back open. It was awesome.

It's definitely anime time up in here. And thinking superglobally kinda reminds me of something I wrote...

That was pretty funny.

[ZAKtheGeek]

What's he going to do? Hit it again?
That's what I expect, yes.

He turns it off later.
Why not immediately? And/or, why bother at all?

It's shown how they deal with it later.
Well, they were supposed to learn Xinchemy, but they never bothered to, it seems. Maybe it will surprise me like the tattoo. That'll be exciting. Mm-hm.

That was pretty funny.
*blush*

[phil_]

That was quite the ending. Everything wrapped up fairly neatly and my only concerns are meta-textual. Namely, are all those blank panels going to be filled in for the volume collection and will they split up this monster chapter into separate episodes of the cartoon or just skip a lot?

[Lithp]

Father didn't turn off the alchemy immediately last time. Why should this time be any different? As for why he does it at all, there's really no good reason. He's just a dick.

Having read the ending, I didn't entirely care for it. For starters, the wrap-up with Father was not only Phlebotinum Overload, his situation doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why is he going into the Gate? Why does he resemble it so much? There were still some good questions left about him & now they're unanswered.

The resolution of the political system was emotionally satisfying, but thinking long-term, the anime got it right. A dictatorship doesn't work because even if you have a great guy who picks another great guy as his successor & so forth, it's going to get screwed up down the road & then there are no checks & balances.

The other thing is the personal relationship aspect. The way the brothers' bond was so emphasized & now they're going to spend years apart. I like the idea of what they're doing, especially that Ed can continue his alchemy carreer even if it's just research, & I guess they could still visit each other, but it doesn't feel right. It's also great ammo for anyone who wants to argue that Winry's portrayl is very sexist. Ed travels the world while Winry sits at home & it's heavily hinted that this is actually going to be a relationship model for them. That...would never work anywhere outside the realm of fiction.

I kinda like what happened with Pride, but where did his personality go? What's up with that? Greed was also satisfying, 'cause he went out like a total badass.

And last but certainly not least, the final chapter once again convinces me that someone should kill that asshole Truth. "I will give you despair." Paraphrased. Who else was it that said that again...?

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/avatarfs/avatar11027_73.gif

So overall, pound for pound, I prefer the anime's story. The manga was still a great story & unbeatable for detail short of a guide book that explains what the manga left out, but in the grand scheme of things, the anime had a better grasp of its plot. The endings are no exception.

But you know what really pisses me off about this ending is?

It's over. There's no more Fullmetal Alchemist. I can finish watching Brotherhood & even catch the episodes in English, but I'll never get anything new from that universe or its characters. It's actually kinda sad....

[Magus]

Regarding the anime, I just saw Episode 61 and they incredibly shortened the fight with Godfather to the point that he didn't even get the chance to toss out some lightning bolts or tornadoes. They must be trying to hurry things now, and it's taking a chunk out of the quality of you ask me, just like it did with the first 12 episodes...

[ZAKtheGeek]

King Bradley drops some good loot.

And main characters can't be possessed or have their "spirits overtaken." They just can't. Is there a trope for that? There should be a trope for that.

[Lithp]

Actually, Kimbley stopped Pride. They very much can be overtaken. It happened to Al.

As to the fight with Godfather, I really don't care if they shorten it. It was 3 chapters of explosions & pointless attacks. Not up to snuff for FMA's usual.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Actually, Kimbley stopped Pride.
That's exactly what I'm talking about!

They very much can be overtaken. It happened to Al.
When? As I recall, his soul was absent?

[Lithp]

I don't remember, but there's also the fact that Father damn near rips their souls out for Phiosophers Stones later on.

And why would you count being stopped by extraneous circumstances?

[ZAKtheGeek]

I'm not sure what you're talking about and I'm not sure you know what I'm talking about. I'm just saying that I notice a pattern where if there's any villainous defeating of spirit in a fairly literal sense (such as suppressing a mind within its own body) then even though faceless shmucks tend to get instapwned by this technique, main and especially "hero" characters get portrayed as being in some big struggle that they usually manage not to ever conclusively lose. See also: Stargate.

And, of course, even more predictably, you get those "interfere at a critical moment" events where the hero screws up the villain right when they don't need it most. Oh no, such an unfortunate weakness! I wonder how it never seemed to matter before.

Really, it's just a subset of the broad hero's advantage that even I'm getting tired of hearing me talk about.

[Lithp]

It's official. TV Tropes ruined your life.

[ZAKtheGeek]

:^(

I think you can end any discussion on NPF with that...

Edit: Also, see Code Geass for a great subversion...

...

:^(

[Lithp]

NPF?

Also, I hate Code Geass. It comes across to me as trying to cram in as many Tropes as humanly possible. >.>

[ZAKtheGeek]

Nuklear Power Forums?

I like to think Code Geass does not screw up intentionally. That makes it so much more amusing.

What the hell are we talking about here? Oh yeah. I think Charles would make a good emperor for Xing.

[Lithp]

Dude, I stopped watching after like 5 episodes, not including individual episodes of R2 I saw in no particular order. The original story was promising, but then it became another Giant Mecha show. To me, at least. I really can't have a discussion with you about that.

[Pip Boy]

Code Geass was like that from the start. Its basically a Gundam <=> Death Note crossover. Megalomaniacal young man gains supernatural power and decides to use it to take over the world. Also, giant robots. Its actually quite a good series. If you're going to slam it, you should go watch it a bit more and you might see that its more than "OMG ROBOTS".

[Kim]

another Giant Mecha show

I don't even like Code Geass and I can tell you that's way off the mark.

[Lithp]

No, it's really not. Big O is a subverted Giant Mecha show. Neon Genesis Evangelion is a subverted giant mecha show. Code Geass is not. The Geass comes across as a hastily tacked-on gimmick later on in the series.

And I'm not going to watch it the whole way through just so every one of its ridiculous number of fans can feel satisfied when I bash it, or try to convert me, or whatever, kapeesh? That makes about as much sense as sticking hot pokers in my eyes so I can bash the act of sticking hot pokers in one's eye in a more informed fashion.

[ZAKtheGeek]

You don't have to watch it or anything but I'm just saying it's more about large hams than large mechas. Then again, I don't know what the typical super mecha show is structured like, so I could be wrong, but based on the above it doesn't seem to be the case.

Seriously why are we talking about this I am so sorry thread transmutation is forbidden *loses signature*

[Kim]

No, it's really not.The Geass thing takes more precedence than the mecha ever do. Having giant robots and politics doesn't automatically make it generic mecha. I mean, I still think the show is terrible, and I'm not telling you to watch it, but you really shouldn't go out of your way to talk shit on something you know absolutely nothing about. That's why people got so pissed off at Ebert, after all.

You don't have to like the show, but going out of your way to bash it just seems needlessly antagonistic.

[Lithp]

I didn't bring it up, so don't go there. I told you I hated Code Geass. It's not my fault no one took that as a cue to avoid the topic because this is exactly where it was going to go.

I already know far more than I want to about the show, trust me. I'm not budging on any of this.

Really, any further discussion on this series is just going to be beating a dead horse.

[Lithp]

On a slightly different note, the new FMAB episode was intense. I think I need a cigarrette.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I've found that quite a lot of people seem to hate Code Geass to a point.

But enough of that.

Where are they up too now in the Anime?

[Satan's Onion]

NonCon, seriously. Lithp said he didn't like something, and the thread moved briefly off-topic. It's not like the conversation was hopelessly ruined by it. The ANGRY BOLDFACED CAPSLOCK BELLOWING you did in reply is about the least appropriate response possible to any of that. Frankly, you're in greater danger of derailing the thread with that post than anyone else ever was with theirs.

If you can't keep your temper in check over things like this, then an infraction and temp-ban is an inevitability for you.

That said, everyone please keep on Fullmetal-ing. Boy, that Frieza sure showed Sailor Moon and Ichigo in the last episode, didn't he? I wonder how the gang'll get out of that one!

[Lithp]

That said, everyone please keep on Fullmetal-ing. Boy, that Frieza sure showed Sailor Moon and Ichigo in the last episode, didn't he? I wonder how the gang'll get out of that one!

Naruto will save them with a Spirit Gun that he got from eating a Cursed Fruit.

There appears to be only one episode left, although the thing I'm watching it on says 2. Ed just punched Father in the face.

Izumi was probably my favorite. Slides down a rock wall Father creates, transmutes 2 swords & goes apeshit on him.

[Magus]

I'm glad they're adding stuff in (or else I don't remember that).

Maybe there is a full episode that is just epilogue-type stuff? I can see them doing that (if only to get a whole 'nother week of viewership), or maybe some sort of cliffhanger mid-chapter 108 ("This is my last act as the Fullmetal Alchemist!" or something).

[Lithp]

Well, Wiki only lists 1 more episode & I can't really see an epilogue episode that long, but who knows, really?

Pretty sure Izumi's sword thing was new, but there are only a few changes. For some strange reason, there's a lot less of the black stuff flying out of him.

Did Greed try to steal God out of Father in the manga? 'Cause either way, that was fucking epic.

[Mesden]

Nope, he basically just said "fuck you" and turned him into charcoal.

[Lithp]

Before that.

[Mesden]

There was nothing before that. He took Greed, pseudo-willingly, out of Lin and then he made a good "fuck you" speech before he messed up Super Dad with his carbonization thing.

[Lithp]

Yes, there was something before that. He tries to absorb Greed's stone twice. The first time is when Greed punches him in the face. The second time is when he jabs his hand into Lin's chest.

At least in Brotherhood, during that 1st attempt, Greed tries to steal the power of God from inside of Father. It's awesome.

[Naqel]

I caught up with the anime, and I must say the next two weeks will be the longest ones in my life...

[Kim]

brb cryin forever

[ZAKtheGeek]

For those keeping score at home, not only is Ed's leg still made of metals, but he will die an early death. Nipaa!

[Lithp]

Yeah, but if you think about it for a bit, you'll realize how cheap that "shortened lifespan" thing really is. For one thing, humans can live up to 100 years or more. How "short" are we talking about? 'Cause 3 years won't be noticed unless you take statistics, which is how we find out that much more mundane things, like cigarrette smoke, can shorten one's lifespan.

Also, the "shortened lifespan" thing has been really done to death in Naruto. It seems like everyone has an attack or skill that does it. Or Naruto, Pain, & Tsunade at least. And no one's dropped dead from it yet.

So, all things considered, Ed got off pretty light.

[ZAKtheGeek]

First of all, WHO ARE YOU CALLING A SHORT LITTLE MICROBE-RIDING LAWN GNOME!??

But yeah. Indeed so. And even in general, he used up his soul. You'd think there would be more consequences. Constant ones. I mean, you just don't do that. He became his own little devil and made a bargain with himself.

Death Note, same thing. Who ever even dies of shinigamivision? Most of them get written off anyway. Souichiro died immediately anyway, and Mikami only gave up in the anime... In the manga, I believe he rot in jail for a while. And Misa is just immortal. Actually, I guess one or more of Mello's goons died naturally...? But they too lasted about a week or something.

[Lithp]

Misa kills herself. But the Shinigami Eye Deal is sorta pointless anyway, because it's implied that people who use the Death Note have short, tragic lives.

Actually, Death Note takes the vagueness of "life span" to the opposite extreme of everything else. If you think about it, Misa really SHOULD be borderline immortal. She got the lifespans of TWO Shinigami, one AFTER her old--& already enhanced--lifespan was halved. But she lives for what, 4-10 years after Rem dies?

[ZAKtheGeek]

That is neither something which definitely happens in the anime nor, do I believe, is there any such implication in the manga.

At the same time, it may be that literally gaining the remaining lifetime of a shinigami is just something the anime made up; I don't recall that wording from the manga. I think the lifetime is just supposed to get extended. It certainly doesn't make any sense.

Hm, how many death note users actually died by death note? About half, I think... It's the only thing that would make sense, if indeed their lives become short. This is because, while most people apparently live under the control of a relentless determinism where their death times are determined long beforehand, the death note seems able to throw all that aside and change things completely. Therefore, it's somewhat contradictory that a death note user's natural life span should somehow take into account such a "non-deterministic" element. Of course, I don't believe the creators thought anywhere near this hard about it.

[Lithp]

I'm not sure if it's actually mentioned or depicted in the main series, but Volume 13 (a guidebook) mentions that Misa killed herself.

As for the anime...she was standing at the edge of a bridge. I'm not sure what else she could have been doing, since she didn't have a fishing rod.

Also, there hasn't been much FMA out of me recently because my computer's being a prick & not letting me watch embedded videos, including FMAB.

[Lithp]

Fucking Hell yes, there's going to be a 2nd FMA movie!

[ZAKtheGeek]

Seems Fuhrers are required by law to have mustaches.

And philosophers' stones fix everything, and of course, are strewn about like candy.

Not a mention of Ed's death. That's already, more wiggle room for my fanfic.

[Lithp]

Marcoh's came from Al's fight with Kimblee &, before that, Kimblee himself.

Lin Yao's was the one Wrath confiscated from the doctor.

That is one thing that the finale kind of skimmed over. Father made so many of those things, so what happened to them? Did he reabsorb the ones he spread all over the country?

Brotherhood's retcon about the doll soldiers fixed those ones. All of Hohenheim's were used up.

Mind you, I still haven't seen the last 2 episodes of Brotherhood, due to my blasted computer problems.

But did you not hear me?! There's going to be a Brotherhood movie! I wonder what it'll be about...?

[phil_]

But did you not hear me?! There's going to be a Brotherhood movie! I wonder what it'll be about...?Hardcore Al x May fucking. For two hours.

[Lithp]

I didn't think it was possible, but Phil has suggested an FMA plotline that I definitely do not want to see.

[Premmy]

You know, if there's one thing I kinda want to see, It's Al finally getting some pussy, just so something cool can happen to him in his woobie life.

[Lithp]

But you don't want to actually SEE it, do you?

[phil_]

Lan Fan joins in, defying the boundaries between clans. It's sorta like Romeo and Juliet, except with two chicks. Everyone's still under eighteen, though.

[Lithp]

BRB, FBI.

Also, I finally got to see the last couple episodes. I'm not ashamed to admit that I got choked up. The little memorial to Hohenheim thing was awesome.

Also, apparently there's a rumor that the movie will be in live action. I fear Shamallama's potential involvement if that's the case.

[Magus]

Please, everybody knows the Brotherhood movie was written by a Fanfiction.net writer and involves a AlxWinryxEd threesome. Duh!

I have no idea what the hell there is a need for a movie for. It's not like with the Conqueror of Whambamshamballam at all. But I guess BONES could always make something up. Although I've heard it's just going to be some kind of condensed version of the plot (whether the whole thing or just the last few episodes, I dunno) with better animation.

[Lithp]

Eh, I don't care if there's a NEED for a movie, so long as it doesn't suck. I don't really like that idea, though.

[Magus]

Maybe the movie will explain why the fuck Yoki was wearing that clown costume in the last episode's credits? I'm presuming he and the chimeras joined a circus or something but why would they want to be in the freakshow? Why haven't we seen a circus up until now? Really this needs answering and the only way to do that is a full 2 hour movie about it.

[Lithp]

I see what you did thar.