What is the greatest film of all time/

[Professor Smarmiarty]

As per the thread title, let's fin the greatest movie of all time.
I've done the hard part and narrowed it to the two best films of al ltime:
Rocky 4
vs
Over the top

At first glance, this is simple. Rocky 4 throws in some quick labs to the head before astriding the fallen corpse of it's rival, on mountain high. But I've been thiking and it's not so simple, OtT can sneak up, humble, deceptive, before dropping the ultimate finisher- the thumb clencher.
Let's break it down

Rocky 4: Pro: The Ultimate Rival, the Ultimate Fight, the Ultimate Revenge.Perfection of the montage. 20% montage by length. The summation of the human spirit, the human fight,the human drive to be king of the animals- the biological urge to suceeed, Rocky 4 sums up the human condition, the meaning of life.
Incisive political commentary.
Con: That fucking piece o shit robot.

Over the top: Pro: A humbler, gentler more personal story than R4. While R4 examines the big picture, OtT comes in with sights lowered, seeking to simply tell a story and tell it well. This is does remarkably. Whereas R4 is a deep philosophical tract for cerebral processing, OtT is an emotional screwdriver to the face. While humans are generally rational beings, our primal urges preceed this and thus OtT can be enjoyed by everyone on every level, no matter if they ready to dissect the movie scene by scene or just kicing it with mates.
Con: Lacks the tension of R4- it never really feels like Hawk is going to lose. Also not enough montages.

What are your candidates?

[Carade]

Pulp Fiction

VS

... I got nothing.

Pulp Fiction is the best film ever.

[Loki, The Fallen]

I offer for nomination "The Princess Bride."

It has it all! Fencing, fighting, torture, revenge, giants, monsters, chases, escapes, true love, miracles. The whole package.

[Seil]

Car and Loki took my votes, so I'll just say "Fight Club" and be done with this.

[EVILNess]

I'm gonna have to throw The Blues Brothers or Ghostbusters out there for comedy, since I don't think that you can really say BEST MOVIE EVER when there are such radically different genres.

[Wigmund]

The Expendables (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6RU5y2fU6s), it's not even out in theaters yet and it's obviously gonna be the greatest movie EVER!

I mean, that's an all-star cast assembled, if it had Al Leong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Leong) the movie would be illegal to show because of the amount of awesome on the screen.

[Magus]

You are all wrong.

The best movie is Miller's Crossing.

Although like EvilNess said there is probably a best film for each genre (mob movie, boxing movie, comedy, horror movie, etc.)

[Optimis Prime]

Jurassic Park vs. any other film that falls short of being my all time favorite due to a lack of dinosaurs.

[Magus]

The problem with Jurassic Park is it took them two movies to get all the set pieces from the book in there (Jurassic Park 3 was just set pieces from Jurassic Park the novel they left out of the first movie), and the main character was completely different (he liked kids in the novel), AND they reversed the sexes of the kid characters for some reason (younger kid was a girl and sporty and the older one was the male and nerdy, that's why he like dinosaurs, duh).

Besides which The Lost World was a superior film to the first one, it had more Jeff Goldblum!

[Azisien]

The Expendables (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6RU5y2fU6s), it's not even out in theaters yet and it's obviously gonna be the greatest movie EVER!

Seconded.


Kick-Ass is also surprisingly high on my list, wow. Terminator 2, Kill Bill, Gladiator, Wall-E.

[Magus]

"Over the Top is a 1987 dramatic film starring Sylvester Stallone, and produced and directed by Menahem Golan about a long haul truck driver who tries to win back his alienated son while becoming a champion arm wrestler."

WHY HAVEN'T I SEEN THIS?

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Aliens vs Terminator 2.

The Battle of the Sequels BEGINS!

[Julford Hajime]

Aliens vs Terminator 2.

Man, at first I thought you were saying that was a movie.

Now if it WERE a movie, it really would be the best film ever.

[DFM]

The Garbage Pail Kids because it taught me people can be ugly on the inside, too.

[Amake]

People Shooting Each Other With Guns: The Movie (http://girlyyy.com/go/158) shoots all your infirm little movies. With guns.

Okay, I can't really decide. I like Fight Club as much as Forrest Gump and Grave of the Fireflies and on some days Cannibal Holocaust. How do you compare any of those with each other? And why would you?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Pulp Fiction

VS

... I got nothing.

Pulp Fiction is the best film ever.
Pulp Fiction is the worst bits of a lot of good movies mashed together. Not a good movie.

I offer for nomination "The Princess Bride."

It has it all! Fencing, fighting, torture, revenge, giants, monsters, chases, escapes, true love, miracles. The whole package.
Ewwww, kissing.

so I'll just say "Fight Club" and be done with this.[/color]
I said Best movie of all time, not worst movie of all time. You may think I'm jokign with some of this (I'm not) butI'm fully dead serious when I say Fight Club is actually the worst movie ever made. I can't sit through it and I can sit through Manos, I can sit through Freddy got Fingered, but not that.
I'm gonna have to throw The Blues Brothers or Ghostbusters out there for comedy, since I don't think that you can really say BEST MOVIE EVER when there are such radically different genres.
Blues Brothers is iffy, Ghostbusters is ok but if it had been the original concept where they are time travelling wizards it would have been better.
Also my two movies transcend gender, comedy, drama, action, arthouse- they have them all.
The Expendables (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6RU5y2fU6s), it's not even out in theaters yet and it's obviously gonna be the greatest movie EVER! I mean, that's an all-star cast assembled, if it had Al Leong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Leong) the movie would be illegal to show because of the amount of awesome on the screen.
You have the Stallone, why would you ruin your movie by casting him alongside a whole lot of shitty lesser people.


You are all wrong.

The best movie is Miller's Crossing.

Although like EvilNess said there is probably a best film for each genre (mob movie, boxing movie, comedy, horror movie, etc.)
Pretty much all Coen brothers films have the same problem- they competent in every category without attempted greatness in any. They trying to please everybody all the time, which is not what a great movie should do- it should piss some people off, it should inspire emotion, it should inspire something other that "Hmmmm, that was a competently put together film".

Jurassic Park vs. any other film that falls short of being my all time favorite due to a lack of dinosaurs.
Transformers 1985 movie is better because it has dinosaurs who are also robots.



Terminator 2, Kill Bill, Gladiator, Wall-E.
Terminator 2 was alright but it should have had Arnie in a training montage before punching the shit out of the T1000- others all unsavable

"Over the Top is a 1987 dramatic film starring Sylvester Stallone, and produced and directed by Menahem Golan about a long haul truck driver who tries to win back his alienated son while becoming a champion arm wrestler."

WHY HAVEN'T I SEEN THIS?
Because you are a primitive savage.
Aliens vs Terminator 2.

The Battle of the Sequels BEGINS!
Terminators are pretty slow- the aliens would tear them apart. I don't know how they got two movies out of this.
Man, at first I thought you were saying that was a movie.

Now if it WERE a movie, it really would be the best film ever.
Ohhohho, he totallytricked me!
The Garbage Pail Kids because it taught me people can be ugly on the inside, too.
Ah, a contender I did not consider. While the message is strong and beautifully told, I fear it will go over the heads of some people without a dramatic action sequence and final speech at the end to rub it in.

People Shooting Each Other With Guns: The Movie (http://girlyyy.com/go/158) shoots all your infirm little movies. With guns.

Okay, I can't really decide. I like Fight Club as much as Forrest Gump and Grave of the Fireflies and on some days Cannibal Holocaust. How do you compare any of those with each other? And why would you?
First movie is cheating.
And it's simple.
I'll do it for you.
So bad it doesn't deserve a rank: Fight Club
3: Forrest Gump
2: Cannibal Holocaust
1: Grave of the fireflies.
It easy if you try.

[Viridis]

Generic Movie Based on the Movie They've Been Releasing Every Single Week Since the 1980s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFicqklGuB0)

[Green Spanner]

Big Lebowski anybody?

[Hanuman]

I want the old smartie back, the one my thread about penning traps is still waiting for =(

TBH I'd rather watch:
-Pulp Fiction
-Princess Bride
-Ghostbusters
-Fight Club

than rocky.

Pulp fiction had a nice tongue and cheek sense of brutal honesty and honest brutality, it worked with a large amount of stories and put a HUGE amount of content into a single short movie, had action, real romance, drama, philosophy, make-shift EMT, cross-plots and comedy. It dealt with flat out matter of fact issues just to set a trend of charm towards how the movie was styled, and it did it wonderfully. It's one of the BEST examples of a movie with such clear and unwavering direction from it's dreamer.

Princess Bride was such a good movie, ESPECIALLY for anyone who's into fantasy or dnd, it presented all of the generic elements of every good campaign or story and worked them in so classically that you absolutely have to see the movie, the brilliant character was actually brilliant unlike most movies where the brilliant character is autistic or an idiot savant in some degree because they never seem to figure out that things are just so much easier than they make it.

Ghostbusters: Bill Murray

Fight Club, in my opinion, is a MUCH better look at the modern human condition than rocky ever will be. Sure, a timeless and inspirit film as rocky may be, showing the nature of how humans adapt and survive, we live in social darwinism now, not physical, so I have to side with fightclub as it was as much a psycho-action movie as it was a physical action movie.... I think when it comes right down to it you walk away with a lot more honest wisdom through fight club than you do with rocky, but you feel a bigger connection to motivation through rocky where as fight club tends to villainize violence and humanity as a whole for embracing it so much.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I want the old smartie back, the one my thread about penning traps is still waiting for =(

TBH I'd rather watch:
-Pulp Fiction
-Princess Bride
-Ghostbusters
-Fight Club

than rocky.
I think the raw brutal truth of Rocky 4 is too much for you.

Pulp fiction had a nice tongue and cheek sense of brutal honesty and honest brutality, it worked with a large amount of stories and put a HUGE amount of content into a single short movie, had action, real romance, drama, philosophy, make-shift EMT, cross-plots and comedy. It dealt with flat out matter of fact issues just to set a trend of charm towards how the movie was styled, and it did it wonderfully. It's one of the BEST examples of a movie with such clear and unwavering direction from it's dreamer.
Clear and unwavering direction? It's a mishmash of pop culture and homages to scenes from better movies.

Princess Bride was such a good movie, ESPECIALLY for anyone who's into fantasy or dnd, it presented all of the generic elements of every good campaign or story and worked them in so classically that you absolutely have to see the movie, the brilliant character was actually brilliant unlike most movies where the brilliant character is autistic or an idiot savant in some degree because they never seem to figure out that things are just so much easier than they make it.
EwwwwwWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwWWWWWWw kissing.

Ghostbusters: Bill Murray
Bill Murray is pretty sweet but wizard bill murray is super sweet.

Fight Club, in my opinion, is a MUCH better look at the modern human condition than rocky ever will be. Sure, a timeless and inspirit film as rocky may be, showing the nature of how humans adapt and survive, we live in social darwinism now, not physical, so I have to side with fightclub as it was as much a psycho-action movie as it was a physical action movie.... I think when it comes right down to it you walk away with a lot more honest wisdom through fight club than you do with rocky, but you feel a bigger connection to motivation through rocky where as fight club tends to villainize violence and humanity as a whole for embracing it so much.
Fight Club is about as deep as one of those jokes you get on chip packets.
I can visualise pretty much exactly how fight club was made:
Writer: Let's make a deep arthousey film about humanity
Producer: That won't make money- remove any thing resembling original thought, creative story telling ,good direction, or challenging themes.
Writer: But then my movie doesn't make sense
Producer: It's ok- but in some action scenes and a few monologues which hel[pfully explain everything and that can be repeated by everyone who has seen the film ad nauseum.
Writer: Done and done
Producer: I love money.
Take a film like Last Year at Marienbad and compare it to Fight Club. They are pretty much aspiring to similar messages but one of them just does it so much more competentely than the other because it doesn't dumb it down for its audience, it has the courage to actually stand by its convictions.
And Rocky 4 is an even stronger example of this. It doesn't really have a plot, it's doesn't have characterisation, it just has the message it wants to tell.

[Hanuman]

I understand your position Smartie, but you hold yourself to a different standard than the rest of the audience.
Yes, you didn't get much out of these movies, I agree.

Do other people? Yes, very yes.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Are you suggesting I take into account other people in my assessments? Cause that seems pretty ludicrous to me.

[BloodyMage]

I offer Yo-Yo Girl Cop.

This is the back of the box summary:

Recruited by a clandestine police organisation, "K", must stop a plot by student radicals to create anarchy in Japan. Armed with a hi-tech steel yo-yo, and a new name, she must infiltrate an elite high school to find the terrorists. However, she finds an even more sinister plan is about to unfold...

The line in bold is the only reason I bought this movie, and it is 99 minutes of ridiculous fun. Maybe there's a message in there, but I don't care, and I don't think the movie cares either, and it's all the better for it.

[Krylo]

Lev, Smarty has terrible taste.

We've all gotten used to it.

Also, I'd rather watch a dog shit in the park than any Stallone movie.

[Carade]

Pulp Fiction is the worst bits of a lot of good movies mashed together. Not a good movie.




Were you watching the same movie as me?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Lev, Smarty has terrible taste.

We've all gotten used to it.

Also, I'd rather watch a dog shit in the park than any Stallone movie.

Rocky 4 isn't a stallone movie. Over the top isn't a stallone movie. They are humanity movies, though it is humanity represented by Stallone. Your focus on the actors in the movie limits your ability to see the wider message, the universal truth, contained in these movies.
Stallone doesn't play a character, he barely even has any dialogue. I'm thinking back to say Permanent Vacation- there is a main character, yes, but that's not really the point. But while Permanent Vacation was packaged in a cultish sound track and disconcerting editing, Rocky 4 was packaged as a riproarious good time.


Were you watching the same movie as me?

Totally. Pulp Fiction really is just a mish-mash of the ideas of others. There is nothing new, there is nothing original, just repackaging. It's an ok repackaging but nothing beyond that.
Also it totally bored me.

Edit: New contender: Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It says in the title that it is good!

[Hanuman]

than any Stallone movie.
Depends who you watch em with, if you have the right friends any movie is watchable really.

Totally. Pulp Fiction really is just a mish-mash of the ideas of others. There is nothing new, there is nothing original, just repackaging. It's an ok repackaging but nothing beyond that.
Well clearly if you can see through this apparently flimsy facade, please list the ideas/scenes/movies that it steals from but apparently doesn't do justice to?

[Julford Hajime]

Depends who you watch em with, if you have the right friends any movie is watchable really.

The Star Wars Christmas Special. That FUCKING SPECIAL. It's like, the single worst thing I've ever seen. It can't even get a joke nomnination in this thread, because it's so terrible.

We were having a Star Wars movie marathon because fuck we're nerds it what we do. Somebody brought the Christmas special. I don't remember how far we got exactly, but I remember a long tutorial on how to put something together. In the middle of the movie. We actually stopped watching it and put in Episode 2 because we needed to cleanse our minds.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well clearly if you can see through this apparently flimsy facade, please list the ideas/scenes/movies that it steals from but apparently doesn't do justice to?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110912/movieconnections Here's some. But it was kind of the point of the film, in that the whole thing is made up of other films. The response to it is not whether you deny it or not but whether you think it works or not.

Man the Holiday special. Even I'm not going to try and defend that one. Did manage to sit through it though, more than I can say for some.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

District B13: the most amazing action and chase scenes that have ever been put on film are to be found in this action movie brought to us by our good friends, the French.

28 Days Later: "In a heart-beat."

[Professor Smarmiarty]

District B13: the most amazing action and chase scenes that have ever been put on film are to be found in this action movie brought to us by our good friends, the French.

28 Days Later: "In a heart-beat."

Haven't seen either of these films but most French films I've seen have been terrible as have films with numbers in the title so using these I can conclude 28 Days Later is bad, District B13 is doubly bad.

[Art of Hilt]

What the, we're four pages in and nobody mentioned Citizen Kane? No love for its innovative cinematography?
Dang, people.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Citizen Kane is not even Orson Welle's best film ( That would be The Trial) let alone the best of all time.

[Art of Hilt]

First I'm going to disagree with you based on principle.
Then I'm going to go watch The Trial because um I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

First I'm going to disagree with you based on principle.
Then I'm going to go watch The Trial because um I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Orson Welles agreed with me that the Trial was his best, for however much its worth. And do so because it's fucking amazing.

[Amake]

Look at it this way, The Illiad is one of the first books ever written. Literally every word of it is sublimely innovative. Does that make it good?

Also, it's only one page yet.

And Smarty, everyone knows the only reason you don't like Fight Club is because it's popular. "It's annoying when people quote it" isn't an argument against a movie. :I

Can't a story be clever without being obscurely clever? You seem to disdain it basically for having an interesting message that is accessible to the vast, uneducated masses. Maybe you don't want anyone to think you're one of those dumb people huh? Nudge nudge.

[Art of Hilt]

Look at it this way, The Illiad is one of the first books ever written. Literally every word of it is sublimely innovative. Does that make it good?

The way Citizen Kane used camera techniques was already fantastic, with the techniques contributing to the story just as much as the characters themselves. The fact that it created them just makes it better.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Can't a story be clever without being obscurely clever? You seem to disdain it basically for having an interesting message that is accessible to the vast, uneducated masses. Maybe you don't want anyone to think you're one of those dumb people huh? Nudge nudge.

The problem is that it doesn't have an interesting message. It could have had an interesting message- it seems like it started with one- but then it lost it in translation. It is no more deep than any other standard blockbuster though people seem to think it is. It's shallow, it sets up some ideas but never explores them instead resorting to catch phrases and meaningless drivel.
And it's not an elitist thing- anyone can understand complex messages, complex films, jsut film companies don't let them, they don't take risks- they are afraid. Like take my fight club analogy "Last year at Marienbad"- it's a much more complx film than fight club, it is a lot more obscure but everyone could understand it, everyone would "get" it. Really if the average person doesn't understand your film it's pretty shitty.
Fight club insults its audience, for all its talk about individualism it treats its audience like mindless idiots.
And the message is all fight club has. Aside from this its an unremarkable film. The narrative is standard, the storytelling is standard, everything is fairly standard. And the message is weak and unexplored.
I don't hate Fight Club because its popular, it aggravates me because its popular.

Also Kane was and is pretty good, it still stands up today. Illiad sucks massive balls though.

[Kim]

It has an interesting twist, that I'd argue is only predictable because of how overdone it is nowadays, subtly lures you into liking Tyler Durden and his philosophy before making it increasingly obvious that he's actually a very terrible guy, and is just plain well put together. It's enjoyable, funny, and clever. Is it the best movie ever? No, but not being HOSHITJESUSAMAZING doesn't make a movie bad.

[Hanuman]

Well smartie you got me there, no way in hell am I sorting through that 6 mile high wall of easter eggs without actual cites on what movies pulp fiction ruins, if any.

[Seil]

Lev, Smarty has terrible taste.

We've all gotten used to it.

Also, I'd rather watch a dog shit in the park than any Stallone movie.

Even I have less terrible taste than Smarty!

[bluestarultor]

I'm going to nominate Troll 2 for best worst movie. Is it a really bad horror movie, or one of the best comedies ever? You decide!

Seriously, though, I do recommend watching it. It may not be good, but it's certainly great entertainment.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well smartie you got me there, no way in hell am I sorting through that 6 mile high wall of easter eggs without actual cites on what movies pulp fiction ruins, if any.

Actual cites? What are they supposed to reference- the films themselves? Cause thats what they are doing. And I've seen most of the films listed there and iti s accurate. And the reason it's so massive is because that is what Pulp fiction is- a higgledy piggeldy of other films.
Let's look at first lines of the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_Fiction_%28film%29
Pulp Fiction (1994) is an American crime film directed by Quentin Tarantino, who cowrote its screenplay with Roger Avary. The film is known for its rich, eclectic dialogue, ironic mix of humor and violence, nonlinear storyline, and host of cinematic allusions and pop culture references.
I mean it's pretty much most of the point of the film.

[EVILNess]

Okay Smarty, you are seriously wrong about one thing. The original premise of Ghostbusters had nothing to do with wizards.

In Dan Aykroyd's original rough draft of the movie, the story was going to take place in the future and that there would be teams of Ghostbusters like there are paramedics and firefighters (thus explaining basing the Ghostbusters HQ in a firehouse). It was deemed too expensive to shoot so Harold Ramis was brought in to rewrite the script with Aykroyd to kinda make it more feasible.

Also, the role of Venkman was for John Belushi and Winston was originally written for Eddie Murphy.

Also, they wanted Peewee Herman to play Gozer.

Seriously, I sometimes stay up at night wondering what Ghostbusters would have been like with Belushi, Murphy, and Ruebens.

[P-Sleazy]

Clash of the Titans...

What? SMB will go to town on this!

[Hanuman]

Actual cites? What are they supposed to reference- the films themselves? Cause thats what they are doing. And I've seen most of the films listed there and iti s accurate. And the reason it's so massive is because that is what Pulp fiction is- a higgledy piggeldy of other films.
Let's look at first lines of the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_Fiction_%28film%29
Pulp Fiction (1994) is an American crime film directed by Quentin Tarantino, who cowrote its screenplay with Roger Avary. The film is known for its rich, eclectic dialogue, ironic mix of humor and violence, nonlinear storyline, and host of cinematic allusions and pop culture references.
I mean it's pretty much most of the point of the film.And what about that exactly diminishes the film in any way as an experience?
I got about 15% way through that list you gave me, and all I could see were easter eggs.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Okay Smarty, you are seriously wrong about one thing. The original premise of Ghostbusters had nothing to do with wizards.

In Dan Aykroyd's original rough draft of the movie, the story was going to take place in the future and that there would be teams of Ghostbusters like there are paramedics and firefighters (thus explaining basing the Ghostbusters HQ in a firehouse). It was deemed too expensive to shoot so Harold Ramis was brought in to rewrite the script with Aykroyd to kinda make it more feasible.

Also, the role of Venkman was for John Belushi and Winston was originally written for Eddie Murphy.

Also, they wanted Peewee Herman to play Gozer.

Seriously, I sometimes stay up at night wondering what Ghostbusters would have been like with Belushi, Murphy, and Ruebens.

From Wikipedia:
he original story, as written by Aykroyd, was very different from what was eventually filmed. In that early version, a group of Ghostbusters travelled through time, space and other dimensions taking on huge ghosts (of which the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man was just one of many). Also, the Ghostbusters wore S.W.A.T.-like outfits and used wands instead of Proton Packs to fight the ghosts. Ghostbusters storyboards show them wearing riotsquad-type helmets with movable transparent visors.[6]
Sounds like a wizard to me.

And what about that exactly diminishes the film in any way as an experience?
I got about 15% way through that list you gave me, and all I could see were easter eggs.
A lot of them aare easter eggs but if you read closely you'll start seeing all the scene by scene reconstructions. Pretty much every major scene is a reconstruction of a scene from a different film. All the iconic scenes are recreations of earlier movies. And that idea could work but it doesn't for me, the film just feels creatively void,there is no thought or pattern to the homages, they thrown in at random and I'm reminded of waht films I could be watching. I think it was helped that the films are mostly from the 50s and 60s so a lot of people watching pulp fiction haven't seen them so it does appear fresh and good which I'll grant you could make the film better.

[Kim]

I like how you ignore the time travel, space travel, SWAT outfits, riot helmets, and go straight for the single detail amongst all that that supports your statement. Because honestly, wands or not, I hear all that, and I am not thinking wizards.

EDIT: I don't think I have a movie I'd consider the greatest, but Spirited Away was pretty damn fantastic. Very enjoyable film, and very interesting characters.

OHSHIT Black Dynamite. That's the best movie ever. Watched it three times and it's still good.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Whose going to carry a wand but some kind of badass wizard?

[Fenris]

People from the future, obviously.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

But what if in the future we've all evolved to become wizards?

[Kim]

Whose going to carry a wand but some kind of badass wizard?

LARPers.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

They are pretending to be wizards. What do you need to pretend to be a wizard? A motherfucking wand!

[Kim]

What do you need to pretend to be a wizard? A motherfucking wand!

All wizards have wands, but not everyone with a wand is a wizard.

Which is my point. That and I'm disinclined to consider anyone from the future a wizard.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

They either a wizard or pretending to be a wizard. And if we presuppose the existence of wizards then I reckon a wizard cabal would go around murdering dudes who pretended to be wiards without being them- for causing wizard bad names and all that.
That is a big presumption but we've got time travel, we've got dimensional travel, we've got massive ghosts- as in not just human sied ghosts- I reckon there are some wizards running around somewhere causing some shit.

[Meister]

That and I'm disinclined to consider anyone from the future a wizard.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. :knowledge:

[Nique]

I hate questions like this. I mean, what are the criteria? I could say, well, this action movie is the best of it's genre, but I mean, would it be the best of it's genre if it was a romantic comedy? It's impossible to gauge.

... Until, that is, you examine Jurassic Park. It DOES have everything. Great Action and Special FX (Obvious), Drama (Rich naive park owner VS Smarmy mathematician. Sparks will fly!) Romance (The dinosaurs are overcoming their personal and literal boundaries to find true love all over the island) Comedy (Newman getting eaten by a dinosaur? Classic) Horror (I still have nightmares about Raptors). It truly encompasses and masters all genres.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Ooh, ooh!! I have another suggestion, cos it was on tv last night.

The Breakfast Club.

BAM!

Oh yeah, this thread is over.

[Revising Ocelot]

Obligatory mention of Dollars trilogy.

And Smarty's tastes are just plain weird. And far too wizardy. Don't let him near any robes and/or wizard hats.

[Geminex]

Re: The wizard discussion: You're all wrong. The best way to tell if someone is a wizard is to see if they have "WIZZARD" on their hat. That is the only true wizard. Coincidentally, it is also the only true hero. So shut up about your sticks, and get yourself some hats.

As for movies? I have little experience. Though Star Wars: Episode 1 was pretty good. I just loooooved Jar-jar.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Obligatory mention of Dollars trilogy.

And Smarty's tastes are just plain weird. And far too wizardy. Don't let him near any robes and/or wizard hats.

Best western is El Topo but of the spaghetti westerns I always found Once upon a time in the west better than The Dollars trilogy. It was much more crafted than the dollars trilogy which were much rougher but that could be part of the appeal I guess


As for movies? I have little experience. Though Star Wars: Episode 1 was pretty good. I just loooooved Jar-jar.

It was better than Episode 2 at least!

[Magus]

The only problem with Once Upon A Time in the West is that the characters weren't as likeable as the good, the bad and the ugly from the eponymous film, nor did it have the badassery of Lee Van Cleef OR Eastwood, or that guy who played the villain in the first two films, but had to settle for Charles Bronson who is certainly THIRD on the list of badassery, but he is third. Plus there was a woman in it, the last thing we need muddling up a good western is a female character! You didn't see Clint Eastwood sticking a woman in Unforgiven, did you? Other than superfluous side characters who act as a plot device to get them to the town, I mean.

The only exception to this might be Two Mules for Sister Sara but in this case the juxtaposition of Eastwood with (what appears to be) a devout nun was the entire point of the movie, plus she's in the title and thus is a main character, and so it is indeed an exception rather than the rule. The addition of women to other westerns has always been awkward, especially Eastwood ones--just look at Joe Kidd. There was a woman in that movie but hell all if I can remember what she did. All I remember is that guy who is sniping people so far away you can't even hear the gun go off until after the bullet has struck, and that other guy who has a Mauser for some reason, what was up with that guy having a Mauser in 1901 did they even invent them yet? There is also a woman in The Outlaw Josey Wales, but once again she didn't do anything.

And I don't think it is that the movies are sexist (possible), but rather there's nothing for them to do in the film, whose themes are about masculine ideals.

Thus the Leone movie, and therefore western, that is best is the one that has no women in it and has Eastwood and Van Cleef in it and this is clearly either For a Few Dollars More or The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

Or maybe Once Upon a Time in America if you want to get into gangster movies but there is a clear lack of Eastwood even in the face of the addition of DeNiro. It was also WAY too long.

[Fungrus]

The best movie of all time is undoubtedly:

Highlander

For those who haven't seen it, the whole movie is a giant metaphor for humanity throwing off the shackles of war, poverty and all our others vices. For example:

The Highlander is an immortal man who represents the whole of humanity working together in unison.
The Kurgan represents all the evil that still lingers inside the human spirit from animalistic beginnings. McLoed is able to beat the Kurgan when all the other immortals have failed because he has the power to love.
Rammierez represents how humanity could have transcended already during the age of the Roman empire, his death representing the plunge of Europe into the dark ages.
McLeod discovers his immortality at a similar time to the beginning of the renaissance.


Clearly it is the deepest and most thoughtful plot to ever be brought to the silver screen.

Also it has the entire soundtrack written by Queen.

[Magus]

Does the Quickening represent Reason leading unto Utopia or does it represent nuclear power as the future cure for our energy problems?

McLoed is able to beat the Kurgan when all the other immortals have failed because he has the power to love.


But who dares to love forever?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

What about El Topo? See it all just rocking along pretty slowly then the woman comes alogn and is like " You must defeat the four greatest gunmen in the land" leading us into a series of ridiculous and progressively spectucular duels.
Or Dead Man where the woman is the key part in Depp getting shot.
Or Quick and the Dead where the woman is important so we can call her names about how shit she is with guns.
Or Calamity Jane!
Hahahahaha females in westerns.

Edit: Re highlander:
Aren't the Immortals aliens who basically invaded our planet to use as their sport ground? Seems an odd humanity metaphor that one.

[Fungrus]

Does the Quickening represent Reason leading unto Utopia or does it represent nuclear power as the future cure for our energy problems?



But who dares to love forever?
Nah, it doesn't represent anything, it's just running really fast.

Edit: Re highlander:
Aren't the Immortals aliens who basically invaded our planet to use as their sport ground? Seems an odd humanity metaphor that one.
Only in the second movie!

[Magus]

They are mostly plot devices there, except of course Calamity Jane who was a real person and therefore not shackled by fictional plots, though I haven't seen enough of Deadwood to see if she is ever given anything effectual to do there.

The Quick and the Dead was pretty terrible so it doesn't count, though this is a good example of a movie where a woman is not just a plot device but an actual character who does stuff. Unfortunately Sharon Stone got cast in The Quick and the Dead instead of a good movie.

EDIT: Yeah it's been long established that the second Highlander movie never happened. In fact none of the sequels happened, except maybe Endgame which was not completely terrible.

[Hanuman]

it doesn't for me
Got it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

They are mostly plot devices there, except of course Calamity Jane who was a real person and therefore not shackled by fictional plots, though I haven't seen enough of Deadwood to see if she is ever given anything effectual to do there.

The Quick and the Dead was pretty terrible so it doesn't count, though this is a good example of a movie where a woman is not just a plot device but an actual character who does stuff. Unfortunately Sharon Stone got cast in The Quick and the Dead instead of a good movie.

EDIT: Yeah it's been long established that the second Highlander movie never happened. In fact none of the sequels happened, except maybe Endgame which was not completely terrible.

Yeah they all plot devices but if you're going to have plot devices they should be pretty to look at. They can serve the same role as the gold hidden by the evil ghost baron but they look better!

Got it.
Also for anyone else who has seen the movies it rips off and plenty of other film critics! Really you have to see the originals to know how badly Pulp Fiction screwed it up. It's not the case of needig to see the originals to make sense of Pulp fiction, but seeing the originals so what Pulp fiction could have been and how shit it became in reality.
And you could post why you think its a good movie cause it's a bad movie but it hard to criticise if people are just like "It's good because ....it's good?"

[Krylo]

And you could post why you think its a good movie.

Because Marsellus Wallace is black, bald, and does not look like a bitch. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNT5zvd3g2M)

[Magus]

Which movie had the part where they accidentally shoot the guy in the face and then Harvey Keitel shows up and helps them clean the brains out of the car? 'Cause I wanna see that movie, too!

Also I thought Kill Bill was the one that accurately recreated scenes from Japanese samurai movies.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Re Krylo: Oh shit, you got me now!
I would say something bad about that bit but then SLJ will come mess me up some.

[Archbio]

And I don't think it is that the movies are sexist (possible), but rather there's nothing for them to do in the film, whose themes are about masculine ideals.

I think that female characters not having anything to do (but there being stuff to be done to them) because they're not the subject of the movie is pretty much the definition of a sexist portrayal in fiction?

See: Fistful of Dynamite (which is barely a Western but is by Leone.)

[Magus]

Oh, well, I probably should have said "probably" there instead of "possibly", but I think there is more at work besides just sexism. It's kind of like how '80s action movies are also sexist but that's part of what makes them '80s action movies, besides themes like "the law has failed us and we need to shoot people ourselves" and "America defeats terrorism/communism/liberalism" and so on. They're male-centric themes, which is sexist, but it's also an element that makes it that thing instead of that thing.

An ideal western doesn't have men doing bad things to helpless women, it has no women in it at all. Not just the complete lack of women, the complete lack of what all women in film entail: logical thinking that may lead to ulterior methods of justice other than bloody vengeance. Why do you think Kill Bill and The Brave One have women who shoot and kill dozens of people with guns and swords? It wasn't to make a non-sexist movie starring a female lead, it was to make a samurai-and-western movie, and a remake of Death Wish, where the male character was simply replaced with a woman who acts in exactly the same fashion despite that making no sense. Oh, and I guess there was a slight plot device in Kill Bill with the daughter but it wasn't really required. Just putting a woman in the film and giving her things to do doesn't make it non-sexist, it just makes it illogical.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

What if the women was also a robot?

Terminator 3 was the best western of all time.

[Magus]

A robot relentlessly hunting people down makes perfect sense in any context, so that's cool.

I'm not sure if Terminator 3 counts as a western, there are cars and robots and stuff in it. The shootout in the cemetery where Ahnuld is carrying around that casket full of guns is very western-ish but that may just be because of that one boss in Red Dead Revolver that I think that.

[Archbio]

Is... is Magus arguing that a movie that sets out to intentionally protray no female characters at all isn't sexist because some sexist premise (that I can't quite grasp) is correct?

[EVILNess]

I've seen the original concept art for the Ghostbusters.

They weren't wands more than dousing rods, and FYI they call the gun parts of the packs Proton Wands, or Throwers if they feel slangy.

I know too much about the Ghostbusters.

[Magus]

Well, I have no idea if Leone did it purposefully. He was probably just sexist like you said since he did have women in some of his films and have male characters do bad things to them. But by sheer accident having no women in some of his movies made more logical sense because (and this may be a sexist premise so I'd like some statistics), women don't hunt down and shoot the people they want vengeance on with guns.

Most murders are committed by men. Men are more violent. I'm not saying some women aren't violent, nor that some women don't want vengeance, nor that some women aren't more than capable of using a gun or a sword to kill a man, nor that some women don't commit murder, I'm saying that most women, already given their penchant for not murdering people, probably wouldn't use a sword or gun if given all the options, but would instead murder someone using some other less violent (and therefore less Western-y) means. So a movie about a woman hunting down a bunch of people and shooting them is less logical than a movie about a man hunting down a bunch of people and shooting them.

Now, a woman hunting down a bunch of peoople and killing them in some other way would make more logical sense, but probably wouldn't work for a western. You could make an illogical western with that premise, and it would probably be fine and dandy and entertaining, but it would be illogical. Unless it starred the character Calamity Jane who I guess fudges up the whole theory. There is also Joan of Arc who I'm pretty sure used a sword, right? I guess it would just have to presented in such a way that it made sense for a woman to be using weaponry in a brutal fashion right out in the open...like it's explained as part of their back story or something. Actually this should apply to male characters but for some reason we as a society let it slide, which is sexist thinking, too, since we already associate weapons with men...

[Archbio]

I think you may be misusing the word "illogical" about as much as Spock. Regardless, Leone pretty much hits any definition of sexist.

To get more on topic, I really have a hard time pinning down what I'd consider the greatest film of all time. I'd feel like a philistine if I were to suggest a recent movies, but really I'm not one for saying "this film has this or that that's less sophisticated than others we've seen, and the production values really fail at some point; but it's old so lets be generous."

Is there any film at all that deserves a perfect score?

[Magus]

I was kidding around originally when I used the fact that they were sexist as a reason that they were great (kind of like how '80s action movies' are overtly dumb and sexist but people like them anyway, sometimes for their dumb and sexist bits), but since you wanted to argue the point I'd figure I'd attempt to come up with arguments! The joke seems to have failed though so never mind.

No movie is perfect, I don't think there's a single movie that hasn't had someone be critical of it for one of its elements. There are some movies with 100% on Rotten Tomatoes but I'm sure someone somewhere didn't like them.

For instance, this RT list (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/top/bestofrt_year.php) has way too many "perfect" movies on it, though this may be a good list to narrow down in an attempt to find the perfect film. But just glancing through the list I can at least one problem with lots of the movies (too long, has some slow parts, bad or unsatisfying ending, scenes don't seem to transition well into one another, not a very serious topic of interest for an adult, unrealistic situations or set pieces with an otherwise realistic movie, etc.)

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

The best movie of all time is undoubtedly:

Highlander


For those who haven't seen it, the whole movie is a giant metaphor for humanity throwing off the shackles of war, poverty and all our others vices. For example:
The Highlander is an immortal man who represents the whole of humanity working together in unison.
The Kurgan represents all the evil that still lingers inside the human spirit from animalistic beginnings. McLoed is able to beat the Kurgan when all the other immortals have failed because he has the power to love.
Rammierez represents how humanity could have transcended already during the age of the Roman empire, his death representing the plunge of Europe into the dark ages.
McLeod discovers his immortality at a similar time to the beginning of the renaissance.

Clearly it is the deepest and most thoughtful plot to ever be brought to the silver screen.

Also it has the entire soundtrack written by Queen.

Does the Quickening represent Reason leading unto Utopia or does it represent nuclear power as the future cure for our energy problems?



This just blew my mind.

Also I just noticed SMB didn't say anything bad about my last suggestion. Clearly there is nothing bad to say about it so therefore it must be the best movie ever.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

To be honest any movie that's really great will have a middling score on RT in my opinion. A high score on RT just means everyone likes it to some extent, not necessarily love it.
To get a 100% you have to be a competent film. Any film that is really really great will polarise opinions by its very nature- and some critics will hate it because its innovative, because its different.
Also that 100% list is a truley strange beast.

As for Highlander I actually haven't seen it. Soundtrack is rocking though.

[Magus]

What the--you haven't seen Highlander?! You better quit talking about your foreign films about watching a tray of ice cubes melt over the course of three hours until after you've watched all the trash the rest of us have watched. I mean, awesome movies.

Next you'll say you haven't seen the Stallone movie Stop, or My Mom Will Shoot! which is of course extremely important to understanding the important themes to any Stallone masterpiece, including the ones you referenced.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I have only see the pinnacles of Stallone's work, I skipped over his toils of trying to find his niche. So I haven't see nStop or my mum will shoot.
I have however, seen Escape to Victory and Cliffhang- both often overlooked Stallone masterpiece.
Holy shit- why has no one raised Demolition Man? The three seashells sums up every instance of cultural conflict ever.

I know pretty much the entire plot to the first three Highlanders movie and good chunks of the series without haven't seen them. Surely that counts.

[Magus]

Until you see the Kurgan wiggle his tongue lasciviously at nuns (who represents the darkest parts of the male id in opposition to Connor, who represents the male superego), it doesn't!

Cliffhanger is pretty great, though, it also had John Lithgow. Obviously the mountain represents the insurmountable odds facing humanity as well as Stallone's own desire to make up for the failure that led to his friend's lover's death years before, but I'm still not sure what the helicopter at the end represents, though it does parallel the earlier scene mentioned where Stallone fails, as it too involved a helicopter, incapable of simply landing on the plateau and so a wire rescue must be attempted (representing Stallone's devil-may-care attitude which he learns to temper with caution by the end of the film). Of course, in the latter climactic scene Stallone succeeds, representing his final triumph over his adversity and former failure.

Demolition Man is of course allegory for the American Indian Schools of the early 20th century where Native Americans' culture was stripped away and they were forced to dress in westernized clothing and live in a culture totally unfamiliar to them.

[Krylo]

I take back what I said before about Stallone films.

But only to make an exception for Demolition Man.

All other Stallone movies are still terrible.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Cliffhanger is pretty great, though, it also had John Lithgow. Obviously the mountain represents the insurmountable odds facing humanity as well as Stallone's own desire to make up for the failure that led to his friend's lover's death years before, but I'm still not sure what the helicopter at the end represents, though it does parallel the earlier scene mentioned where Stallone fails, as it too involved a helicopter, incapable of simply landing on the plateau and so a wire rescue must be attempted (representing Stallone's devil-may-care attitude which he learns to temper with caution by the end of the film). Of course, in the latter climactic scene Stallone succeeds, representing his final triumph over his adversity and former failure.
Escape to victory is like this, only replace the mountain with a nazi football team.

I think the rest of this thread should be about how awesome Demolition Man is.
You're going to regret this the rest of your life... all two seconds of it!

[Magus]

Wesley Snipes' character obviously represents the scofflaws of the modern age who laugh at our liberal legal system. The allegory of placing such a criminal in the liberal utopian future who proceeds to destroy due to a lack of gun ownership shows that the conservative plan for America is the only thing preventing its complete collapse. And of course the death penalty as opposed to deep-freeze imprisonment for the rest of eternity would have prevented any problems from occurring at all, thus showing that capital punishment should be made part of the Constitution. Also, flat taxes.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The police systmem has become so emasculated it has resorted to asking people nicely to behave, probably as a result of federal meddlig, onerous PC health and safety requirements- meaning all time is spent filling forms and busting crime.
Big government even fines people for swearing- a clear attempt to control how we think by what language we are allowed to use.
In addition, with the collapse of reasonable society, black people run rampant! And no one can stop them!