Let's Start A Riot!

[Seil]

Thread title from here, but please, don't actually riot. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XncuY4wLaA8)

People are doing enough of that already. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32OW6cu4Ypk)

So, people in Toronto are setting fire to police cars. Why? 'Cause they're pissed, that's why.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/3207701.bin (http://www.theprovince.com/news/protest+turns+violent/3207700/story.html)

What is G20? Well, essentially it's this: (http://www.g20.org/about_what_is_g20.aspx)

What is the G-20

The Group of Twenty (G-20) Finance Ministers and Central Bank Governors was established in 1999 to bring together systemically important industrialized and developing economies to discuss key issues in the global economy. The inaugural meeting of the G-20 took place in Berlin, on December 15-16, 1999, hosted by German and Canadian finance ministers.
Mandate

The G-20 is the premier forum for our international economic development that promotes open and constructive discussion between industrial and emerging-market countries on key issues related to global economic stability. By contributing to the strengthening of the international financial architecture and providing opportunities for dialogue on national policies, international co-operation, and international financial institutions, the G-20 helps to support growth and development across the globe.

What are they doing that's worth protesting? I can't really tell. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/protest-groups-say-the-g20-leaders-should-be-focus-of-public-scrutiny/article1576372/) Did they think this would happen when they spent so much on security for the event? Probably not. (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/829515--call-inquiry-on-g20-mayhem)

Anyone know what's going on? Becuase I can't find any info on why people are protesting the most recent G-20 event, or really even what the G-20 people are doing. All I can find is news about the riot. About how people are urged to stay in their homes. About property damage. About rioting in the streets.

[Archbio]

Did they think this would happen when they spent so much on security for the event?

They really should (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27th_G8_summit#Citizens.27_responses_and_authoriti es.27_counter-responses) by now.

[Jagos]

Check my ACTA thread. Canada does have their own as well.

[Melfice]

Anyone know what's going on? Becuase I can't find any info on why people are protesting the most recent G-20 event, or really even what the G-20 people are doing. All I can find is news about the riot. About how people are urged to stay in their homes. About property damage. About rioting in the streets.

The G20 top is a conference that is currently trying to determine how to best recover from the recent world-wide financial situation.
From what I understand, the protesters are rioting because they don't want the 20 most wealthy industrial nations determining the fate of the world (they're against globalization, or something).

Basically, they want nations to deal with their own problems.
They fail to see, of course, is that almost all countries (and certainly the G20) are dependant of each other due to the massive loans they all have with each other.

Imagine all the nations agreeing to no globalization. "Okay, US. Sure. We'll stop dealing with you guys. Now give back the 20 billion in loans you owe to the rest of the world." Repeat that for the rest of the world. CHAOS.

[Funka Genocide]

Drugs, sex and bad canadian rock and roll just aren't enough some times, some times you need to punch a cop.

[pochercoaster]

I believe one of the reasons there's protesters at G20 is because Stephen Harper didn't want to provide funding in the Congo for safe abortion clinics, among some other things having to do with women's rights groups. (This is of course only one of many reasons.) I haven't really done any research on it besides my daily skim of the Toronto Star that we receive at work. Some people say nothing is really accomplished at G20 summits, except spending 80,000 a minute on security, and arresting people who refuse to identify themselves to police if they're within 5 metres of the concrete barrier.

I don't think smashing windows is going to accomplish much. The only opinion I really have on the whole thing is I'm glad to live near Toronto but not in it. >_>

[bluestarultor]

Imagine all the nations agreeing to no globalization. "Okay, US. Sure. We'll stop dealing with you guys. Now give back the 20 billion in loans you owe to the rest of the world." Repeat that for the rest of the world. CHAOS.

That always really blew my mind. People complain about the national debt, but nobody seems to the the idea of "hey, we owe France a few trillion, they owe us a few trillion, so why not just write it all off based on the current exchange rate?"

If everyone wrote off their debts to each other, wouldn't that mean less debt and people could actually figure out what's going on? It's only going to get worse the longer we wait.

[Seil]

My brother lives in Toronto and I'm kinda worried. I haven't heard from him since this whole thing started, but knowing him, he's probably in a basement somewhere, oblivious to everything.

If everyone wrote off their debts to each other, wouldn't that mean less debt and people could actually figure out what's going on? It's only going to get worse the longer we wait.

A person is smart. People are dumb... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkCwFkOZoOY)

[Funka Genocide]

Drugs, sex and bad canadian rock and roll just aren't enough some times, some times you need to punch a cop. mountie

Thought that needed some revision. You know since the RCMP is the federal law enforcement force of Canada, which is responsible for responding to acts of terrorism, which might ensue due to the current tensions.

(Although I think that Ontario maintains its own provincial force for such matters now that I think about it, due to its population of more than 12 people and/or polar bears.)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

That always really blew my mind. People complain about the national debt, but nobody seems to the the idea of "hey, we owe France a few trillion, they owe us a few trillion, so why not just write it all off based on the current exchange rate?"

If everyone wrote off their debts to each other, wouldn't that mean less debt and people could actually figure out what's going on? It's only going to get worse the longer we wait.

See the problem is not that much of the debt is owned by foreign governments themselves- like only 25% of US debt is owned by foreign governments.

[Osterbaum]

The G-20 is a forum for basically the 20 richest countries in the world coming together to discuss and make decisions based on what is mostly important to themselves. I can pretty much see why that concept in itself is something to oppose.

[Funka Genocide]

Its a bunch of self righteous and bored sons and daughters of canadian yuppies running around trying to feel as though they're making a difference. They don't want to be America, but the only thing stopping them from such an attrocity is that they're 1/10th the size.

Seriously, Canadian hypocrisy is ridiculous.

[Osterbaum]

I haven't paid any attention to these particular riots, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of the people protesting/rioting are against globalization and/or capitalism on some levels.

[Eldezar]

http://www.infowars.com/peaceful-protesters-attacked-arrested-while-cop-car-arsonists-left-alone/

Or, you know, maybe these summits are run by some pretty bad people.

Peaceful Protesters Attacked, Arrested While Cop-Car Arsonists Left Alone


Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Monday, June 28, 2010



An eyebrow-raising photograph of one of the anarchists who set fire to a Toronto police car during anti-G20 protests this past weekend shows him wearing Nike clothing, a potential indication that provocateurs dressed up as black-bloc “anarchists” were again employed by authorities to cause mayhem in order to justify a brutal police crackdown and crush free speech, as peaceful protesters were attacked and arrested while the anarchists who torched the cars were left alone.

The picture shows the two culprits who set fire to the police car congratulating each other and looking remarkably relaxed about potentially being caught by police considering what they had just done. One of the men is wearing Nike pants – the distinctive logo of the company can be seen above his left pocket.

Why would a hardcore anarchists so dedicated to his cause that he is willing to torch a police car be wearing clothing made by a company that anarchists universally abhor, and one that has routinely been targeted by anarchists for well over a decade?

The authorities certainly wasted no time in responding to the mayhem the anarchists helpfully generated for them with brute force. After anarchists torched four police cars, reporters and other peaceful protesters were targeted with rubber bullets, with another Guardian journalist being repeatedly punched and elbowed by cops.

“A newspaper photographer was shot with a plastic bullet in the backside, while another had an officer point a gun in his face despite identifying himself as a member of the media,” reported the Canadian Press news agency.

Journalist Steve Paikin of public broadcaster TV Ontario described the brutal beating of the Guardian reporter.

“As I was escorted away from the demonstration, I saw two officers hold a journalist. The journalist identified himself as working for ‘the Guardian.’ He talked too much and pissed the police off. Two officers held him a third punched him in the stomach. Totally unnecessary. The man collapsed. Then the third officer drove his elbow into the man’s back. No cameras recorded the assault. And it was an assault.”

A d v e r t i s e m e n t
Paikin noted how middle class, peaceful demonstrators were being attacked and arrested by police, while the anarchists who provided them with the pretext to do so were nowhere to be seen.

“The police just started arresting people. I stress, this was a peaceful, middle class, diverse crowd. No anarchists. Literally more than 100 officers with guns pointing at the crowd. Rubber bullets and smoke bombs ready to be fired. Rubber bullets fired.”

“I have lived in Toronto for 32 years. Have never seen a day like this. Shame on the vandals and shame on those that ordered peaceful protesters attacked and arrested,” added Paikin

Could the two men in the picture be cops dressed up as anarchists? It wouldn’t be the first time that cops had posed as protesters and deliberately staged violence in an effort to justify a heavy-handed police response.

We have documented numerous different occasions where the black bloc anarchists were completely infiltrated by the authorities to provide a pretext for a police state crackdown.

A recent example occurred at last year’s Pittsburgh G20 summit, where footage showed three burly older men who look completely out of place with black bandanas over their face walking alongside young protesters during a march against police brutality in a You Tube clip entitled “G20 Epic Undercover Police Fail”.

The clip would be hilarious if it was not so disturbing. Protesters walking behind what are obviously badly disguised cops claim they broke cameras and acted aggressively towards genuine protesters, as well as carrying gas canisters. During a peaceful demonstration on the same night, riot cops savagely attacked protesters with batons and rubber bullets while also assaulting and arresting students who weren’t even part of the demonstration.



Following the SPP protests in Canada three years ago, Quebec provincial authorities were forced to admit that three rock-wielding black mask-wearing “anarchists” were in fact police infiltrators used to gather information on protesters.

Video shows two of the provocateurs pick up rocks and try to incite violence before they are outed as cops by legitimate demonstrators. The two thugs then tried to slip behind police lines before their fellow officers were forced to stage their arrest. Again, the fact that they were cops in disguise was later admitted by authorities. Interestingly as it applies to the Toronto “anarchists,” one of the primary reasons the men initially aroused suspicion was the fact that they were wearing the same distinctive boots as the uniformed riot police.

Watch the video.



Alex Jones’ film Police State 2: The Takeover exposed how the black bloc anarchists were completely infiltrated and provocateured by the authorities during the violent 1999 WTO protests in Seattle.

The authorities declared a state of emergency, imposed curfews and resorted to nothing short of police state tactics in response to a small minority of hostile black bloc hooligans. Police allowed the black bloc to run riot in downtown Seattle while they concentrated on preventing the movement of peaceful protestors. The film presents clear evidence that the black bloc anarchist group was actually controlled by the state and used to demonize peaceful protesters. Watch the video below.







At the WTO protests in Genoa 2001 a protestor was killed after being shot in the head and run over twice by a police vehicle. The Italian Carabiniere also later beat on peaceful protestors as they slept, and even tortured some, at the Diaz School. It later emerged that the police fabricated evidence against the protesters, claiming they were anarchist rioters, to justify their actions. Some Carabiniere officials have since come forward to say they knew of infiltration of the so called black bloc anarchists, and that fellow officers acted as agent provocateurs.

At the Free Trade Area of Americas protests in Miami in late November 2003, more provocateuring was evident. The United Steelworkers of America calling for a congressional investigation, stated that the police intentionally caused violence and arrested and charged hundreds of peaceful protestors. The USWA suggested that billions of dollars supposedly slated for Iraq reconstruction funds are actually being used to subsidize “homeland repression” in America.

The leadership of the black bloc has been completely usurped by the authorities and anyone who still professes to be a member of the group is either supremely naive or completely stupid. To dress up like terrorists, all in black with ski masks and bandanas (like the police) immediately sends out a negative message to the watching public and demonizes legitimate protesters, as does pointlessly setting fire to a police car. Engaging in such acts only bolsters the rational and reasonable facade of groups like G20 that the anarchists supposedly want to discredit.

Such incidents provide the perfect justification for the authorities to shut down the free speech of legitimate demonstrators who actually have something of substance to say and a means of communicating their message, people like Charlie Veitch, who was arrested, tortured and caged by Toronto police thugs after he used a bullhorn.

[Bells]

The G20 top is a conference that is currently trying to determine how to best recover from the recent world-wide financial situation.
From what I understand, the protesters are rioting because they don't want the 20 most wealthy industrial nations determining the fate of the world (they're against globalization, or something).

Basically, they want nations to deal with their own problems.
They fail to see, of course, is that almost all countries (and certainly the G20) are dependant of each other due to the massive loans they all have with each other.

Imagine all the nations agreeing to no globalization. "Okay, US. Sure. We'll stop dealing with you guys. Now give back the 20 billion in loans you owe to the rest of the world." Repeat that for the rest of the world. CHAOS.

You basic Logic is flawless but it actually goes beyond. It's not really just about Loans.

There is no such thing as a "By itself" nation. On Imports, exports, Resources, Training, Job sites, International commercial venues, Tourism, Resource exploration and collecting... all of that is Global.

If you stop right now and look around you, a simple Look around from shoulder to shoulder, you -WILL- find at least one product that is made in another country, or in your country by a company of another country, or in your country by your country owned by several countries.... and so on.

"No Globalization" also means, none of that. It would break the world. Also, there is always someone yelling "The rich are getting richer". Well, no matter how much you want to equalize things, there is always someone who will be the richer one. A lot of the time because they were smarter, faster, more daring or just cause they knew the right people... no matter of rioting changes that. ever.

Also, *looks at picture in first post* if you go to any demonstration in fll black gear, mask and hood... you are not a protester, you are a vandal waiting for a cue to act.

[Archbio]

From what I understand, the protesters are rioting because they don't want the 20 most wealthy industrial nations determining the fate of the world (they're against globalization, or something).


I think that what brings out a lot of anger is the undemocratic character of these institutions and processes, in all senses of undemocratic.

Its a bunch of self righteous and bored sons and daughters of canadian yuppies running around trying to feel as though they're making a difference. They don't want to be America, but the only thing stopping them from such an attrocity is that they're 1/10th the size.

Seriously, Canadian hypocrisy is ridiculous.

So, this is somehow exclusively specifically about America and Canada (mostly about America, though, right?) even though it's about the G-20, and even though other "G" summits in other countries have drawn large protests?

Also, there is always someone yelling "The rich are getting richer". Well, no matter how much you want to equalize things, there is always someone who will be the richer one. A lot of the time because they were smarter, faster, more daring or just cause they knew the right people... no matter of rioting changes that. ever.

I think you're missing the point of "the rich are getting richer," which is usually paired with "the poor are getting poorer." When the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing, there's little based in a "normal order of things" that justifies it.

[Funka Genocide]

I can understand the base impetus behind it, its simply the expression that is meaningless. Lets all jumble together and shout obscenities at civil workers roped in to playing security force for a week.

Harassing people and businesses is antithetical to peace, and the people they wish to protest against could give a tin plated shit what a bunch of rabble rousers think or do.

Canada is a democracy, they can vote and blog and hypothesize and try to get a message out through other means. What they are doing now is simply grandstanding, capitalizing on the rage of youth, most of those kids out there probably don't even understand the intricacies of international finance to a degree necessary to have a cogent conversation on the matter, they're just filled with hormones.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Not that I agree with most of these protesters but writing, blogging about things ain't going to do shit. None of us lives in a democracy and the issues they are complaining about are beyond any individual government.

And as for the "kids don't understand stuff" shoudl we just give control of our affairs to the few smartest men on the planet? People know bullshit and injustice when they see it. You don't need to know the intricacies of how the world/its people are being murdered to know that they are. They not asking for small change- which would be a highly technical argument- but for widespread institutional change.

[Archbio]

I hadn't realized bloggers were that powerful and relevant!

[pochercoaster]

My brother lives in Toronto and I'm kinda worried. I haven't heard from him since this whole thing started, but knowing him, he's probably in a basement somewhere, oblivious to everything.

Also, cell phone service is/was jammed in Toronto and around the airport, so that might have to do with it.

[Funka Genocide]

Widespread change on a timeline that isn't glacial is caused by widespread violence and murder. It's called a war. If you've got some way to arm the concerned masses, by all means enlist the undergrads in your bid for world change.

Riots aren't wars until people start dying. Death is the true currency of international commerce. If they don't want to die for their cause, or the supposed cause of the trampled on and forgotten, they're better off writing witty livejournal posts and tweeting about it.

[Magus]

Frankly since every G# summit turns into a huge bloody riot is there a particular reason they keep having them in the heart of urban centers instead of at some nice resort somewhere? Or fenced in compound? If I was Grand Dragon of the Shadowgovernment of Globalization I would just propose we have our meetings in some back room somewhere and then hit the golf course by 1:00.

Just sayin'.

[bluestarultor]

Widespread change on a timeline that isn't glacial is caused by widespread violence and murder. It's called a war. If you've got some way to arm the concerned masses, by all means enlist the undergrads in your bid for world change.

Riots aren't wars until people start dying. Death is the true currency of international commerce. If they don't want to die for their cause, or the supposed cause of the trampled on and forgotten, they're better off writing witty livejournal posts and tweeting about it.

War doesn't determine who is right, but who is left.

Widespread change CAN happen without violence. For example, America voted for a Democrat, and now fringe Republicans are trying to use violence to try to fuck it up, as if the Bush administration somehow hadn't been effective enough at leaving a mess.

Also, violence by no means means change. China and Tibet should be all the indication you need of that.

There's a balance that has to be struck. You need to find some way, any way, for a powerful outside force to become sympathetic to your cause. Seeing your people get shot is a good way to do this, but there are other means.

[Kim]

Well this is certainly worth hearing about... (http://ht.ly/250po)

Always gotta love hearing about the police being miserable shitbags who don't deserve their badges...

[Donomni]

A few gems:

Maxwell and a friend were hanging around near Queen and Dufferin Sts. at a convergence centre for protesters on Sunday afternoon when police started making arrests. “My friend was blowing bubbles and I was scribbling peace signs on the sidewalk.”

Within minutes, her friend was grabbed and Lulu was put up against a wall. Her backpack was searched and Lulu says an officer said she could be charged with possession of dangerous weapons “because I had eyewash solution in my backpack.”

Eyewash solution? Really? Pepper spray it ain't.

Wanting a better view of a protest outside Queen’s Park on Saturday, Firth walked to an elevated U of T building. When police told him to leave, he identified himself as a mayoral candidate. He refused and was forced to the ground, his cheek lacerated. He was arrested for obstruction.

“I wasn’t obstructing anyone, I was asking questions,” said Firth, who was taken to the Eastern Ave. detention centre where he needed insulin for his Type 1 diabetes. Sunday morning he was taken to the Finch Ave., courthouse and again needed insulin, so was sent to hospital. He later returned to court and was released on $1,000 bail. He is considering suing the city and police.

Never say the police discriminate based on things like status or political position.

MacIsaac, an independent journalist in town for the G20, took out his video camera to document police search methods and says he was aggressively thrown to the ground. Police began kicking him in the ribs and stunning him with a stun gun. “I have a pacemaker!” he screamed repeatedly, but says they didn’t listen.

MacIsaac was eventually taken to St. Joseph’s Hospital where he was handcuffed to a hospital bed. He says officers harassed him; one repeatedly asked if his pacemaker battery was nuclear. He was later taken to the detention centre and left alone in the back of police cruiser. When police let him go seven hours later, they said they had no idea where his $6000 worth of equipment went. They told him to file a complaint.

What?

Miller, an independent journalist, was on her way to the jail solidarity protest Sunday around noon with fellow journalist Adam MacIsaac. She stopped at Bloor and St. Thomas Sts. where she saw police officers searching a group of young people carrying backpacks. She says police attacked her.

“I was throttled at the neck and held down. Next thing you know I was being cuffed and put in one of the wagons.” She says she was threatened and harassed by police at the Eastern Ave. detention centre. “I was told I was going to be raped, I was told I was going to be gangbanged, I was told that they were going to make sure that I was never going to want to act as a journalist again.”

She also says she spoke to numerous young women who were strip-searched by male officers.

Do Canadian police play FATAL, yet bizarrely like it? This is the only way this even remotely makes sense.

On Sunday, Morrison was talking to a friend on Queen St. when police searched her bag and discovered an air filter mask. She was charged with wearing a mask with intent. “I’m wearing a mask?” she said “It’s a bogus charge.”

Morrison, a graffiti artist, sometimes works on projects with police. As she stood talking to media, an officer came by and said “Good to see you,” not realizing she had been arrested. She was seething after a 19-hour detention. “I’m vegan. I haven’t had anything to eat until three hours ago.”

...I'm not sure if this is dumber than the nuclear pacemaker or not.

[Osterbaum]

And quite frankly if someone did protest "violently" it still wouldn't make the worst of that stuff ok for the police to do; such as personal insults, excessive and unneeded violence, holding people in detention without letting them fulfill even some basic needs...

[Funka Genocide]

You really believe anything major changed when America voted for a Democrat?

I don't mean to sound like a cliched pessimist, but I really can't help it when confronted with a statement like that. It's all sound bites and the soothing white noise of public appeasement.

Smart people, like yourself Blues, have this propensity to believe they can change the world. In a manner of speaking they are correct, however it's not in the idealized method one would hope for. For a single person to enact widespread change, they must forsake choice and individual freedom. They must relinquish the larger portion of their humanity in order to become a module of the system they wish to influence. That sort of power is the culmination of the work of a lifetime, the end result of bartering your soul for power.

You can't make it through the process unscathed, there is no purity in power. You must sacrifice and bully. You must tread the lonely path of the tyrant; paved as it is with the corpses of the innocent.

When you arrive at your destination, how much of your original purpose will have survived?

How many children retain their innocence in a war zone?

Each ideal you possessed, each starry eyed dream is like a child. Each one lost to stray bullets, road side IEDs, disease and the inevitable moral decay of an environment suffused with the cheapness of death.

This is the inherent contradiction of the intellectual. Each step you take towards your utopian ideals is another footfall upon the unmourned dead.

And to riot? Ha! To participate in civil unrest is a single step from being a soldier.

Do you know what a soldier is?

A man, bereft of humanity, turned from a sentient being into a weapon. When you become a soldier, you become the tool of someone else. This defeats the entire purpose of rioting. Here you are, screaming to the universe, the beast that shouted "I", but its all a delusion. You cannot assert your ideals as a soldier, you cannot further your dreams, you needs must become the appendage of another's dream, a dream that has been corrupted by the inevitability of power. All your efforts, all your violence, shall serve the ends of another who lost his way long ago.

To attempt to shatter the paradigms of your world is to invite this damnation. It is hubris before the god of entropy.

That is why I say find a humble way to change your world. Talk to your friends and loved ones, invest in your children. The world is a lake filled with water and blood, tears are better than death.

[bluestarultor]

Um... Funka? Really, that's beautiful, but I literally have no words for how far away it is from what I was saying.

Like, really, I voted for Obama and I'm happy with all he's been able to force through a Congress that doesn't support him. He's probably going to go down in history the same way as Bush, Sr., in that he's a good president that ultimately won't accomplish the things he could have because of a lack of support in the other branches of government.

I've always said I don't expect him to fix eight years' worth of what George W. did, but he's doing a pretty good job based on what he has to work with.




People need numbers to be heard, not violence. There are pathways for these things unless there's actual oppression going on. Having talks behind closed doors doesn't count, and protesting in that case causes more harm than it solves. You do not gain transparency by making a fuss. You get it by using the pathways built in for that purpose. If those pathways don't work, you focus on electing better people.

In this case, getting a million people to write letters goes a lot further than taking to the streets.

[Funka Genocide]

As long as one man is smarter and more ambitious than another there will always be oppression. For us it takes the form of fast food and cable television, instead of nerve gas and AK-47s. The outcome is similar.

In other words: The system is self perpetuating. One man can not shatter the chains of causality.

There is no John Galt.

[Kim]

There is no John Galt.

And thank fucking Christ for that.

[Funka Genocide]

And thank fucking Christ for that.

Yeah sure, he's a fictional cock holster, I get that.

But every person who picks up a pen or a rifle or a degree and takes off to save the world is the same basic archetype. You want to be that one voice that shifts humanity towards enlightenment.

It's all nonsense.

A voice heard around the world no longer speaks its own truth. To remain yourself, you are relegated to the whispers of the everyman. Everyone else simply becomes a tool of the human system, like birds in formation flying to the same destination. It's predetermined, no one is steering this thing.

[Kim]

Eh, I can't get too upset. The world is, ever so slowly, improving. You can blame TELEVISION and THE MEDIA for problems all you want, but most people were still stupid back in the day and they had their own equivalents. Anyone who says mankind is on a downward spiral is actively seeking out reasons to be negative. But this is something that people have explained before, and explained better than I have or even really want to.

[Funka Genocide]

Well I never said it was a downward trend, just that it's a trend absent a controlling force.

Everyone who steps up to the plate of world power is just a functionary in a long, drawn out performance.

I think humanity is progressing to a point where, maybe, someday, the individual will be relevant. But its not doing so because of any singular person or ideal, it is simply the nature of the system to do so.

[Osterbaum]

The world is, ever so slowly, improving.
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[Archbio]

Funka.

Funka, you went from "effect change through other means (than protesting/rioting" to "effecting change as individuals is impossible."

At least the protesters/rioters have optimism.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Progress is an upward spiral. Or so I've read in some book on Historical theory I forget.

[Osterbaum]

I'm just saying that we can't just assume things will automatically turn out well in the end. Infact I'm willing to go as far (atleast on a bad day) as to say that there are a lot more indicators that things are going to get fucked up rather than turn out good.

[Funka Genocide]

I'll admit I was overly stark for emphasis. You can affect change as an individual of course, just on a smaller scale. I think that's more important than waving signs around and shouting slogans.

The assumption I am operating under is that those rioting want to "make a difference" in more than just their own lives and communities. I see this as the incorrect choice. The bigger the statement you try to make the easier it is to muddle it.

Volunteering for a youth outreach program, for example, will do so much more than shouting at police officers across barriers.

[Kim]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

No, it really is. At this point the only concern is that we'll run out of resources and die before we can fix our problems. It's a legit concern, but we are constantly making progress on the "be less horrible than we used to be front."

[bluestarultor]

I'll admit I was overly stark for emphasis. You can affect change as an individual of course, just on a smaller scale. I think that's more important than waving signs around and shouting slogans.

The assumption I am operating under is that those rioting want to "make a difference" in more than just their own lives and communities. I see this as the incorrect choice. The bigger the statement you try to make the easier it is to muddle it.

Volunteering for a youth outreach program, for example, will do so much more than shouting at police officers across barriers.

I don't know if you missed this, but most of the people weren't rioting. They were having a peaceful protest. Some people think that cops were planted to riot so they'd have an excuse to crack down, which they seem to have done with gusto on reporters, governmental candidates, and children.

[Funka Genocide]

One could also argue that the general flotsam of indiscretions such a gathering of law enforcement and agitated citizens generates is being over emphasized to support a contrary agenda.

Tomato, tomato.

(Pronounce them differently in your head.)

[Osterbaum]

No, it really is. At this point the only concern is that we'll run out of resources and die before we can fix our problems. It's a legit concern, but we are constantly making progress on the "be less horrible than we used to be front."
A pretty big concern at that, but it wasn't the only thing I was thinking about. I just don't think that this slow progress is bound to last. Why should it?

[Kim]

A pretty big concern at that, but it wasn't the only thing I was thinking about. I just don't think that this slow progress is bound to last. Why should it?

Why shouldn't it? Progress has been pretty consistant for a pretty dang long time, and while there have been setbacks we generally overcome them and improve things to better than they were before. Saying that things are destined to get worse and horrible and awful is a rather pessimistic view, and, from my perspective, without much basis in reality.

[Osterbaum]

What I'm saying is, that just because things have gradually become better, doesn't in itself mean that this will continue so. Not to mention that 'better' and 'worse' are subjective views. It is also very much possible to improve in other areas and worsen in others; not everything moves in the same direction.

Besides, a pessimist isn't easily dissapointed.

[pochercoaster]

One could also argue that the general flotsam of indiscretions such a gathering of law enforcement and agitated citizens generates is being over emphasized to support a contrary agenda.

Tomato, tomato.

(Pronounce them differently in your head.)

Uh, no. There actually was some police brutality going down. Amnesty international is actually involved now. I've been hearing horror stories from fellow Torontonians for a few days, about how practically anyone walking down the street was arrested, and about how it took them 6 hours to get out of the city in what should've been 1 hour, etc.

There were a few screwy protesters, but most people were either just trying to navigate the city (which is seriously enough of a pain in the ass even when there aren't any barriers up along the main streets and cops interrogating you) or protesting peacefully. I'm not saying that a police force wasn't needed, or that some people didn't need to be arrested (some did), but they went beyond what was necessary.

Really, we're dealing with Toronto here. Most Torontonians are too self absorbed to make much of a fuss out of anything. If you want to placate them you just need to hand out some free double-doubles. >_> <_<

[Funka Genocide]

You know, you are much better at arguing on the internet.