Wonder Woman to undergo massive overhaul. And puts on some damn pants already.

[POS Industries]

So comics' first lady is being revamped for the '90s 21st Century. (http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/06/29/new-wonder-woman-costume/)

The Gods, for reasons of their own but which may have something to with their survival and perhaps the survival of Earth itself, have changed the timeline. In the new timeline, years ago the Gods removed their protection from Paradise Island, and left it vulnerable to attack. And attacked it was. Led by a dark figure, a veritable army descended upon the Island, equipped with weapons that could kill even the Amazons. Outgunned, doomed, Hippolyta gave over her three-year-old daughter to a handful of guardians who spirited her away as Hippolyta led one last desperate battle against the forces that had come to destroy all she had created. In that final battle, she and most of the Amazons were killed, though some managed to escape.

It's now nearly twenty years later. Diana has been raised in an urban setting, but with a foot in both worlds. She has little or no memory of the other timeline. She knows only what she's been told by those who raised her On the run, hunted, she must try to survive, help the other refugee Amazons escape the army that is still after them, discover who destroyed Paradise Island and why...and if the timeline can be corrected or not. She also does not yet have access to her full powers, but will be gaining them as she goes.

On the one hand, I actually really dig the new look. On the other, this gigantic retcon sounds a bit on the awful side, and makes Marvel's One More Day fiasco look like the best executive decision since the Louisiana Purchase. Not to say I don't approve of Themyscira gettings its shit wrecked or Wondy not dressing like a two-dollar whore, but with a healthy dose of actually not terrible writing, this could have all been accomplished easily enough through events in the present-day DCU rather than having to completely change the course of its history for something so altogether minor.

[Bells]

Now, why the hell would the Amazon Princess wear a freaking short Jeans Jacker?

She looks just like Black Canary now.....

Oh.. wait.... it's "Urb" Wonder Woman

[Premmy]

I was always fond of the "armored" version of Wonder-Woman's uniform, since it had the same basic structure, which I think is important for iconic characters, but it made some damn sense, as well as visually connecting her to her Amazon background.
http://www.geekshow.us/wp/wp-content/uploads/image/NewFrontier_06.jpg
The new look?
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2010/06/newwwcostumefull.jpg
I like this costume from a design standpoint, particularly the pants, as I feel they are a great update of the Division of the body that the Underwear-over-tights thing did, particularly how the Pants don't go JUNK!CROTCH!PUNANNY!DON'TLOOKATIT! and insead just divide up the form in two easy parts.

I don't like it for Wonder Woman specifically, as it's just such a far departure from the iconic imagery, similar to Superman Blue/Red

Also, that retcon shit? dumb dumb dumb.

[Lumenskir]

So this was never really answered in the other thread: Why is the overall continuity so important to comics? Because really, every story about comics continuity I read is just some variation on how a continuity shattering event is finally going to clean up that pesky ol' continuity.

As for the actual change...I dunno, I've never read anything with WW as the main focus, and I've never really gotten a good handle on what her hook was. I do think they could have toned down the blatant Superman origin ripoff, and her new costume reminds a little of Rogue from the X-Men cartoon, but I think it's because of that weird jacket thing she has going on.

[Kim]

Don't read the comics, so this doesn't really effect me, but the new design is pretty nice.

[Premmy]

So this was never really answered in the other thread: Why is the overall continuity so important to comics? Because really, every story about comics continuity I read is just some variation on how a continuity shattering event is finally going to clean up that pesky ol' continuity.
general nerdery, that's the deal with Comics Continuity

As for the actual change...I dunno, I've never read anything with WW as the main focus, and I've never really gotten a good handle on what her hook was.
She's DC's Thor, but with the Greek Pantheon and Boobs.

[Archbio]

Not to say I don't approve of Themyscira gettings its shit wrecked or Wondy not dressing like a two-dollar whore, but with a healthy dose of actually not terrible writing, this could have all been accomplished easily enough through events in the present-day DCU rather than having to completely change the course of its history for something so altogether minor.

I approve of the new costume (altough I don't know that many whores wear bathing suits, honestly,) but I really like Themyscira, I don't really see what's good about it getting wrecked, and it seemed to me that it's been continually getting its shit wrecked for a while now.

The retcon itself seem ludicrously irrelevant.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I see nothing wrong with the costume (though it is a bit too similar to Black Canary's costume). The story needs some work but I've grown up knowing that nearly everything DC and Marvel do usually ends up sucking in the end. They have there good moments but there usually ruined and destroyed eventually.

Honestly no one could really complain about them ditching the half naked look without coming off the wrong way.

[Premmy]

Some Stuff about Superhero Fashion
Fashion One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGsquQJeP9U)
Fashion Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pre59AhUNDk)
And One About Wonder Woman! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pre59AhUNDk)

[MuMu]

Really like the redesign, they even managed to make a jacket that doesn't look horribly out of place with the costume. Only the 'urban' environment that worries me, unless that's just a setup for future mythical stories. Overall, this sounds like a small arc that's getting retconned away very soon, unless it gets a good reception.

Probably the first Wonder Woman related story that I might read.

[bluestarultor]

Really like the redesign, they even managed to make a jacket that doesn't look horribly out of place with the costume. Only the 'urban' environment that worries me, unless that's just a setup for future mythical stories. Overall, this sounds like a small arc that's getting retconned away very soon, unless it gets a good reception.

Probably the first Wonder Woman related story that I might read.

Who wants to bet the costume stays regardless if there's a decent reaction to it. "Just because she likes it" or something.

[Aerozord]

why even retcon it if you are doing it to such an extreme degree, just do a new continuity. Or atleast give a freakin reason for it beyond "a wizard did it"

[Premmy]

I just want to say the title of this thread clashes HORRIBLY with POS's avatar.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

why even retcon it if you are doing it to such an extreme degree, just do a new continuity. Or atleast give a freakin reason for it beyond "a wizard did it"
The new changes may be experimental. They likely want to see how people react to it.

[Amake]

Continuity is the single worst thing about comics. There's what, five hundred of them published every month in the US? And that's been going on for like eighty years. ALL of that needs to fit in with every decision you make as a writer or you get bad continuity. No lasting change can ever happen because it could never be coordinated over even one comics universe. And the average vocal comic book nerd hates bad continuity with the special fury of the borderline Autistic whose psyche breaks down when confronted with the world's inconsistencies.

Funny story, I read a Brian Michael Bendis mail column where a reader complained, at great length, about how in a Halo comic Master Chief's gloves had a different number of knuckle nubs on them when drawn by a different artist.

Anyway, I love the costume change. For the first time ever I can look at Wonder Woman and not go "hmm why does none of the boys show their arms, their shoulders, their back, their legs, their hips OR their cleavage?" Depending on if the jacket stays on, it's about 80-98% less sexist. Also no fucking high heels. It's practical, it's sane, it's everything that superheroes should be doing since they no longer live in 1940s cartoon worlds. Not iconic enough? Wonder Woman is the icon of Truth no matter how she looks and she'll give you a good kicking if you argue.

Also I'm shamelessly attracted to short eighties jackets.

(Oh damn it's by J Michael Straczynski, this is going to be retconned back so hard it'll make her boobs fall out.)

[Archbio]

No lasting change can ever happen because it could never be coordinated over even one comics universe.

In every other medium, continuity would mean changes adding themselves to other changes until what you get is different than what you had.

The problem isn't continuity, it's the reverse, it's the necessity the comic book companies have of preserving their best selling icons in as static a state as they can while simulating change.

[POS Industries]

I approve of the new costume (altough I don't know that many whores wear bathing suits, honestly,) but I really like Themyscira, I don't really see what's good about it getting wrecked, and it seemed to me that it's been continually getting its shit wrecked for a while now.

The retcon itself seem ludicrously irrelevant.
Yeah, I guess this is mainly what I mean. There's not really much reason for time-traveling shenanigans to be involved in something that happens fairly often enough already without it.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing DC move away from ripping off Superman's backstory in the general "home of superpowered people is destroyed and now (insert superhero here) is the last of his kind" when they want to revamp a classic IP. They largely did the same thing when they brought in Kyle Raynor too, as I recall.

Though the second they stop borrowing from Supes, they'll probably just start having everyone's parents gunned down by muggers so I guess it could be worse.

And the average vocal comic book nerd hates bad continuity with the special fury of the borderline Autistic whose psyche breaks down when confronted with the world's inconsistencies.
I don't know who should be more offended by this statement: Comic fans or people with autism.

Either way don't do that thing you just did anymore, okay?

[Premmy]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing DC move away from ripping off Superman's backstory in the general "home of superpowered people is destroyed and now (insert superhero here) is the last of his kind" when they want to revamp a classic IP. They largely did the same thing when they brought in Kyle Raynor too, as I recall.

Though the second they stop borrowing from Supes, they'll probably just start having everyone's parents gunned down by muggers so I guess it could be worse.
There's always Door Number Three
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/93/Dr_arthur_light.jpg/250px-Dr_arthur_light.jpg

[Archbio]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing DC move away from ripping off Superman's backstory in the general "home of superpowered people is destroyed and now (insert superhero here) is the last of his kind" when they want to revamp a classic IP.

They already pushed hard for the "secret identity" thing a while ago, didn't they? With the Diana Prince angle. Which was triggered, in story, by Superman lecturing Wonder Woman if I recall.

It's the exact reason why I loved the whole Amazon Princess/Ambassador to the wider world angle. It was her own shtick.

[Aerozord]

I think its not even the belief in continuing every change, or in having static characters, but their unwillingness to let a series die. Know whats the only american comics I own? Marvel Zombies. Mostly because, since its considered for the most part a throw away series, and takes place in its own continuity they dont worry about long term effects. Its self contained and after the last one went full circle giving nice concrete ending. honestly while I love it I hope they never make another.

My point is if they didn't have to make a series span decades, follow the same timeline, and try and keep it set in our own world this would be alot better. Even ignoring all problems you cant escape the fact that they try to keep it all in continuity, which would mean these characters are well into their 80's

[Magus]

Outfit looks dumb and looks just like Black Canary and a few other characters in other works to boot.

If they don't want to show off her cleavage they should opt for some kind of full-body armor that has more to do with being an Amazon, or if they just have to go "urban" they should at least attempt to come up with something more original than the jacket-and-jeans look. Boring and unoriginal as hell. I have a hard time even finding the "costume" in this look. Next they'll urbanize the Green Arrow to wearing green flannel and jeans.

[bluestarultor]

I think its not even the belief in continuing every change, or in having static characters, but their unwillingness to let a series die. Know whats the only american comics I own? Marvel Zombies. Mostly because, since its considered for the most part a throw away series, and takes place in its own continuity they dont worry about long term effects. Its self contained and after the last one went full circle giving nice concrete ending. honestly while I love it I hope they never make another.

My point is if they didn't have to make a series span decades, follow the same timeline, and try and keep it set in our own world this would be alot better. Even ignoring all problems you cant escape the fact that they try to keep it all in continuity, which would mean these characters are well into their 80's

Well, maybe not, depending on how much time actually passes in the comics. You could reason that the only time that passes is what's explicitly shown or stated, which I'm sure would cut down on that a lot. Then you're just left with a world where fashion changes every month or so. XD



Edit: On the costume, it kind of reminds me of some cross between Jubilee and Superboy.

[Aerozord]

Well, maybe not, depending on how much time actually passes in the comics. You could reason that the only time that passes is what's explicitly shown or stated, which I'm sure would cut down on that a lot. Then you're just left with a world where fashion changes every month or so. XD


not just fashion, also technology, culture, politics. Besides even if they did do that, they dont, you are still talking about atleast a few decades for the older series

[Funka Genocide]

I don't understand why super heroes still maintain iconic costumes at all. The entire premise is juvenile and so intrinsically intertwined with military ethos and "the establishment" that its amazing such a simplistic convention has survived into the modern era of pop culture.

Honestly, Superman is like 90% costume.

Fuck costumes. Unless they are a practical necessity (a-la Ironman) they're useless and only serve to tie character development to simplistic visual cues.

Then again I advocate the unilateral destrucion of all gold and silver age comic characters, for the good of mankind.

[Kurosen]

On the one hand, I actually really dig the new look. On the other, this gigantic retcon sounds a bit on the awful side, and makes Marvel's One More Day fiasco look like the best executive decision since the Louisiana Purchase. Not to say I don't approve of Themyscira gettings its shit wrecked or Wondy not dressing like a two-dollar whore, but with a healthy dose of actually not terrible writing, this could have all been accomplished easily enough through events in the present-day DCU rather than having to completely change the course of its history for something so altogether minor that will be undone entirely within three years.
There we go.

[bluestarultor]

not just fashion, also technology, culture, politics. Besides even if they did do that, they dont, you are still talking about atleast a few decades for the older series

True. I was just making a point that what the reader sees accounts for very little of the goings-on in most comics.


Really, though, it all boils down to convenience. People only get older when it's convenient to do so, and then they age very slowly. Adult characters often show no visible signs of aging alongside child characters who slowly grow up over the years. Bruce Wayne's had how many kids grow up as Robin and he's still, what, no more than forty? Jubes is pushing, what, twenty now?

It's great when you have a character you need to market for them to not have to grow old, retire, and quietly die. It's just not terribly realistic when people only age relative to their peers, which pretty much hits a brick wall at whatever time before middle age serves the character(s) best.



Edit:

I don't understand why super heroes still maintain iconic costumes at all. The entire premise is juvenile and so intrinsically intertwined with military ethos and "the establishment" that its amazing such a simplistic convention has survived into the modern era of pop culture.

Honestly, Superman is like 90% costume.

Fuck costumes. Unless they are a practical necessity (a-la Ironman) they're useless and only serve to tie character development to simplistic visual cues.

Then again I advocate the unilateral destrucion of all gold and silver age comic characters, for the good of mankind.

It has to do with making them iconic. There are only so many faces you can draw reliably, so clothing and hair and coloration all are very important. Keeping them in something resembling an iconic costume keeps a consistency between artists and even between issues, which is why they tend to keep them for a while. Plus, you have the benefit of concealing your identity, assumedly because the masses all get too star-struck to realize you're that guy from the newspaper without his glasses or because you actually have the sense to wear a proper mask.

Basically, yes, they are simplistic visual cues. On the other hand, they're needed simplistic visual cues. I gave up on watching the Batman and Superman cartoon because when they were both in their civvies, I had trouble telling them apart. There need to be ways to easily distinguish characters, and, yes, to reflect their characterization visually.

[Lithp]

I was always fond of the "armored" version of Wonder-Woman's uniform, since it had the same basic structure, which I think is important for iconic characters, but it made some damn sense, as well as visually connecting her to her Amazon background.

From someone who's not a big Wonder Woman fan, here are the problems I have with that statement:

1. Her armor does not "make sense." See that whole area from her clavicle to her cleavage? The shit that's uncovered? Yeah, that's a pretty vulnerable area. If it were a male hero, the armor would be protecting that.

2. The Amazonians are a society in Greek myth. Greeko-Roman that armor ain't.

As for continuity, maybe I'm just ignorant of the demographic, but my impression of comic book fans is that they don't really respond well to alternate continuity stories.

[Funka Genocide]

I think manufacturing an icon is unimportant. I want a story, a connection, something to think about or emotionally react to. I don't care if that story contains Batman or Herbert J. Motherfucker esq.

That's what comics are and have been since the inception of the serial strip though, a marketing ploy that sells itself. The story is secondary at best to the iconography.

I am a very disillusioned little boy. T_T

[Premmy]

I was always fond of the "armored" version of Wonder-Woman's uniform, since it had the same basic structure, which I think is important for iconic characters, but it made some damn sense, as well as visually connecting her to her Amazon background.

From someone who's not a big Wonder Woman fan, here are the problems I have with that statement:

1. Her armor does not "make sense." See that whole area from her clavicle to her cleavage? The shit that's uncovered? Yeah, that's a pretty vulnerable area. If it were a male hero, the armor would be protecting that.
It makes at least more sense than the wonder-thong, and in my world, this revamp would also come with a modified version of the "armored" look, point is: Armor>Jeans-and-Jacket in my mind


2. The Amazonians are a society in Greek myth. Greeko-Roman that armor ain't.
So? better than Star-spangled panties

As for continuity, maybe I'm just ignorant of the demographic, but my impression of comic book fans is that they don't really respond well to alternate continuity stories.

Sure they do, as long as it stays Alternate, and is Good, Everyone loves Kingdom Come, Red Son, Ultimate Marvel( well, Spider-man at least) Superman Birthright, all that stuff.

[Archbio]

Fuck costumes. Unless they are a practical necessity (a-la Ironman) they're useless and only serve to tie character development to simplistic visual cues.

I really don't think "visual cues" equates with "useless" in a visual medium.

I'm betting on less than three years.

[Funka Genocide]

I really don't think "visual cues" equates with "useless" in a visual medium.

I'm betting on less than three years.

I always found dynamic visuals to be far more important than static. The uniform is a static element.

What is more important? The fact that wonder woman just punched out some dude, sending him flying through a wall, or that she was wearing a Freedom Thong when she did it?

Like take a relatively recent Super Hero story, Kill Bill, and look at the dynamism inherent to the main character.

She was the same character throughout, driven by rage and coldly calculating, her important psychological features were made apparent and kept consistent. Her outfit, however, constantly changed. There were some iconic outfits sure (the yellow biker suit really stands out as one) but they were iconic because she wore them WHILE DOING SOMETHING important. They didn't need to be repeated for emphasis.

It cheapens the character to leash it to a costume.

[Archbio]

The super-cool-outfit is equal in importance to the super punch.

You were saying that "the entire premise [of costumes] is juvenile and so intrinsically intertwined with military ethos and the establishment," but it really seems like that's even more of a problem with the "solving some (some) problems (selectively picked as important) through punching" element than the distinctive costumes that are being worn.

Not that the use of costumes aren't problematic, including in the sense that they can serve as substitute for having an actual character, but none of these things can't be salvaged, deepened.

[Funka Genocide]

Ok I can see what you're getting at.

I just think the negatives outweigh the positives. On one hand you have the impact a striking visual makes, the immediate and visceral connection between a heroic persona and it's most basic visual trademark, however on the other hand you have the creative stagnation a recurring costume brings, the reliance on that impact which breeds a laziness in characterization, and a sort of crippling of the character brought on by the need for the costume.

The concept of the mask is similar. I'd rather see a departure from costumes and masks and an emphasis on characterization and drama.

what I mean is John Fucking Constantine.

[bluestarultor]

The super-cool-outfit is equal in importance to the super punch.

You were saying that "the entire premise [of costumes] is juvenile and so intrinsically intertwined with military ethos and the establishment," but it really seems like that's even more of a problem with the "solving some (some) problems (selectively picked as important) through punching" element than the distinctive costumes that are being worn.

Not that the use of costumes aren't problematic, including in the sense that they can serve as substitute for having an actual character, but none of these things can't be salvaged, deepened.

A good costume reflects the character. It's only in really lazy cases where it's the other way around.



Edit:

Ok I can see what you're getting at.

I just think the negatives outweigh the positives. On one hand you have the impact a striking visual makes, the immediate and visceral connection between a heroic persona and it's most basic visual trademark, however on the other hand you have the creative stagnation a recurring costume brings, the reliance on that impact which breeds a laziness in characterization, and a sort of crippling of the character brought on by the need for the costume.

The concept of the mask is similar. I'd rather see a departure from costumes and masks and an emphasis on characterization and drama.

what I mean is John Fucking Constantine.

What you mean is Dazzler. If you never knew she had her own comic series before she was stuck with the X-Men, well, there's a good reason for it. Turns out nobody cares about people's everyday lives and struggles. Flashy outfits and explosions sell better.

[Premmy]

Like take a relatively recent Super Hero story, Kill Bill, and look at the dynamism inherent to the main character.
Kill Bill was a Super Hero story?

She was the same character throughout, driven by rage and coldly calculating, her important psychological features were made apparent and kept consistent. Her outfit, however, constantly changed. There were some iconic outfits sure (the yellow biker suit really stands out as one) but they were iconic because she wore them WHILE DOING SOMETHING important. They didn't need to be repeated for emphasis.

It cheapens the character to leash it to a costume.
You DO realize that's why superheroes have secret identities, no? Most super hero flicks are
"Drama out of costume drama out of costume ACTION IN TIGHTS!"

[Funka Genocide]

Don't get me started on the whole secret identity circle jerk.

Also yes, of course Kill Bill was a super hero movie. How else does Uma Thurman kill like 50 Japanese dudes with swords and punch her way out of a coffin?

You've seen the movie right?

Edit: @Blues: No, what I mean is John Motherfucking Constantine

[Archbio]

On one hand you have the impact a striking visual makes, the immediate and visceral connection between a heroic persona and it's most basic visual trademark, however on the other hand you have the creative stagnation a recurring costume brings, the reliance on that impact which breeds a laziness in characterization, and a sort of crippling of the character brought on by the need for the costume.

I really think that the costumes and visuals are being stagnated intentionally for marketing (through icons) purposes.

I'd rather see a departure from costumes and masks and an emphasis on characterization and drama.

They're really not mutually exclusive things.

what I mean is John Fucking Constantine.

Your problem might be that you're reading a narrow subgenre* you don't like?

*A subgenre with overinflated visbility compared to the rest of the comic book medium.

[Donomni]

On the other, this gigantic retcon sounds a bit on the awful side, and makes Marvel's One More Day fiasco look like the best executive decision since the Louisiana Purchase.

Oh, now you're just being crazy.

[Premmy]

Don't get me started on the whole secret identity circle jerk.
That's, like, a central element of being a super hero

Also yes, of course Kill Bill was a super hero movie. How else does Uma Thurman kill like 50 Japanese dudes with swords and punch her way out of a coffin?
I call that a kung-fu flick

You've seen the movie right?
Yes, and I understand the difference between a super-hero and a story with fighting
Your problem might be that you're reading a narrow subgenre* you don't like?
Pretty much this
V
I hate Superheroes!

[Funka Genocide]

I think that conceptually characterization and costumes are not mutually exclusive, yes.

However, in practice I find that the converse is true.

What really matters is that there's no way in hell anyone should still be reading Wonder Woman in 2010. There should be something new to take its place.

@Prems: The central elements to being a super hero are A: Superhuman capability(ies) and B: Heroic disposition. Everything else is fluff. Also, A can be ignored if you have enough money.

[Lumenskir]

That's, like, a central element of being a super hero
I dunno about that. There are a lot of super heroes who have secret identities, but what about the ones who live in public?
I call that a kung-fu flick
I think he's taking Bill's whole Superman/Clark Kent speech as a thesis statement or something.

[Archbio]

The Bride didn't have a heroic disposition!

What really matters is that there's no way in hell anyone should still be reading Wonder Woman in 2010. There should be something new to take its place.

Or Wonder Woman should have gotten into a wholly different place (and I mean through the organic flow of several stories, and not through this kind of crackerjack publicity stunt) by now.

[Funka Genocide]

I don't see the disconnect here. When Batman punches out the Joker, its a superhero movie, when The Bride does the 5-point palm exploding heart technique on Bill, it's not?

edit: also, point B can be ignored if you are a big enough badass.

[Premmy]

@Prems: The central elements to being a super hero are A: Superhuman capability(ies) and B: Heroic disposition. Everything else is fluff. Also, A can be ignored if you have enough money.

No, that's the characteristics needed for a Clasical hero, There are plenty of super Heroes without both of those things, Rorshach lacks both a heroic disposition and Super Human Ability(as that's his POINT) the Super-Hero concept is very specific.

These are COMMON things (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhero#Common_traits), but not central elements.

I dunno about that. There are a lot of super heroes who have secret identities, but what about the ones who live in public?
Well, Yeah, most definitely the Fantastic Four for istance, But they still have lives not related to punching bad guys, whereas Hercules and the Bride pretty much ONLY punch badguys.
Edit:
I don't see the disconnect here. When Batman punches out the Joker, its a superhero movie, when The Bride does the 5-point palm exploding heart technique on Bill, it's not?

Some Central(to me) elements that are distinctive to the Super-hero genre
1: Dual Identity seperated into mundane and Hero
2: Modern Setting
3: Unique Appearance adopted while heroing
4: The Regular Averting of Disasters(Kittens in trees, breaking dams)
5: Fighting of evil( basically Averting Disasters, but with punching)

[Archbio]

Doesn't that make Carrie a superhero?

Superhuman abilities + badass!

[Funka Genocide]

Heroism is defined by context. Also, Watchmen was a deconstruction of the classical super hero archetype, you can't use it as source material to define the thing that its destroying.

Also yes, Carrie is a super hero, mainly because I don't want to admit my definition is incorrect.

[Premmy]

Heroism is defined by context.
But not SUPER-heroism, because that's a subgenre

Also, Watchmen was a deconstruction of the classical super hero archetype, you can't use it as source material to define the thing that its destroying.

Um... yes I can? because that's how deconstructions work?

[Art of Hilt]

I don't see the disconnect here. When Batman punches out the Joker, its a superhero movie, when The Bride does the 5-point palm exploding heart technique on Bill, it's not?

That's cause the 5-point palm exploding heart technique is a kung-fu move made by a kung-fu master taught to his kung-fu pupil who pretty much uses kung-fu in every second of her existence from her shtick in using kung-fu as an assassin to her bloody revenge-driven kung-fu hunt of specific individuals who are all stylistically distinct from one another in how they use their kung-fu*.

Because it's a kung-fu movie.

*- With exception to Budd who's more of a cowboy anyway.

[Funka Genocide]

Either I'm using too broad a definition for super heroism, or you guys are using too narrow a definition, I'm willing to assume the former.

However, its all art, and art is by its nature organic. I don't think you can tell me that what constitutes a super hero is the same recipe as it was 50, 30 or even 10 years ago. You have to leave some leeway when defining art, assuming you can define it at all.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

It's the latter. Kill bill was more of a standard action movie not a hero flick. There was no elements that are even meant to be token as acts of heroism. Heck I doubt the film was even suppose to be token seriously to begin with. It was just an over the top kong fu movie.

To say that's a super hero movie is to say that every action movie ever made is a super hero movie because it did something that can't be done in real life.

This thread's about a page away from becoming a flame war ground from the looks of it.

[Funka Genocide]

You should reread what I wrote and then apply what was actually said to your response.

Also, I wouldn't call Die Hard a super hero movie because, while Detective McClain did some pretty cool stuff and beat up a bunch of bad guys, nothing he did was unrealistic in a physical sense. In a social sense yes, but that's the distinction between an "action" movie and a "super hero" movie.

I don't think cultural emphasis or inspiration is make or break. I think most kung fu movies at least overlap with the super hero genre. If you made a Venn Diagram there'd be a little oval which would constitute their union, for sure.

I think, specifically in Kill Bill, that taking on a bunch of ruthless killers and eventually reuniting with your daughter constitutes at least a bit of heroism. Its not altruistic heroism of course, but it is decidedly positive given the context of the movie, and dangerous for the heroine.

To say that a movie doesn't classify as a super hero movie because its not meant to be "token"(sic) seriously isn't a very good argument. Again, to say that being over the top precludes something from being super-heroic is also, completely ridiculous.

[Premmy]

This thread's about a page away from becoming a flame war ground from the looks of it.
how so?
I don't think cultural emphasis or inspiration is make or break. I think most kung fu movies at least overlap with the super hero genre. If you made a Venn Diagram there'd be a little oval which would constitute their union, for sure.
Yeah, definitely. I think the things they have in common would be more universal to any sort of story wherein physical conflict is central.

Like, take two wildly different superheroes, Batman and Superman, the things they have in common are more unique to them: Costume, secret identity, crime fighting, whereas the fighting, the skills, e.t.c. are more generic. Apparently, Batman types used to be distinguised from Super-human types with the term "mystery men" but, again, the things they had in common with super-humans were more distinct than the things they had in common with everything else.

Like, The Phantom, The Green Hornet, and The Lone Ranger might have more in common with Spider-man than they do with John Mclane, Beatrix Kiddo, Jason Bourne, or Sherlock Holmes, even though the things they do are more in line with the latter than the former.

[Funka Genocide]

how so?


I was planning to insult your lineage in like 5 posts.

[Premmy]

GNUUUUUUU! Not my ancestors! They're very easy to anger! You'll doom us all!

[Funka Genocide]

Luckily Kyanbu saw through my dastardly machinations and saved us all from the ancestral wrath of your predecessors.

Would you call that a heroic action, or a super heroic action?

[Kim]

He didn't solve the problem with violence, so it's obviously only heroic.

[Premmy]

I don't want to imagine him in tights so: heroic.

[Funka Genocide]

Actually I guess he was kind of right, in a self fulfilling prophecy sort of way.

OH WHAT GRATUITOUS IRONY!

But yeah, I'd say that basically I am against the modernization of classical comic book character on principle, as I believe they should just die, their corpses bringing fertility to the soil of the comic book medium.

However, I fucking loved The Dark Knight and Ironman is the tits, so I guess that makes me a hypocrit.

[Premmy]

I think non-superhero comics and Superhero comics can live together in harmony, but I'm a hippy so who cares what I think.
Actually I guess he was kind of right, in a self fulfilling prophecy sort of way.

OH WHAT GRATUITOUS IRONY!
Now I feel like a jerk, Sorry Ky-leg

[Funka Genocide]

Ok Prems, I'm only going to ask this shit one time.

Why do you have so much black space under your posts?

oh... OH...

Empty space, I meant empty space.

[Premmy]

Ok Prems, I'm only going to ask this shit one time.

Why do you have so much black space under your posts.

oh... OH...

Empty space, I meant empty space.

TOO LATE!
RAWRRAWR RACISMS!
Edit: back on Topic, I found this
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc82/spuffpuppy/wonder_woman.jpg

[POS Industries]

Why do you have so much black space under your posts?
It's a result of all the stuff in the sidebar having to take up so much vertical space, which results in a whole lot of empty space next to it if the post isn't very long.

[Tev]

I like the new costume. Feels a little out of place for Wonder Woman.....sorta like seeing Thor in jeans and a hoodie. Didn't we have a "Wonder Girl" offshoot a long while back?

Anyway, like the look. would have liked to maybe see a new face rocking it though. DC/Marvel would have to retcon less shit if they let their world grow old and got some new blood doing things.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I think non-superhero comics and Superhero comics can live together in harmony, but I'm a hippy so who cares what I think.

Now I feel like a jerk, Sorry Ky-leg

It's alright, though to be honest I thought I had jumped the gun for a second there.

Even though we might not see her in that after this arc is over. I still kind of would like to see the outfit designed used again afterwards. On a different character maybe.

[bluestarultor]

It's alright, though to be honest I thought I had jumped the gun for a second there.

Even though we might not see her in that after this arc is over. I still kind of would like to see the outfit designed used again afterwards. On a different character maybe.

I don't think you get this. It's bad form for a lady to wear an outfit everyone's seen before. ;)


By which I mean if they designed it for Wondy, they're not going to recycle it for someone else. There's just no getting away with that. If it were for a bit character, sure, because most people aren't going to remember it or care, but for a heavy hitter, like, what, some teenager finds it in a trash can, decides it's cool, just happens to have Amazon powers, and decides to fight crime? I realize these are comics, but that's still pushing it.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I never though about it that way.

[Premmy]

They could give it to the current Wonder-girl.

[Lithp]

God damn, this thread progressed a lot while I was gone! Well, looking at the armor, I didn't notice that the design is essentially a USA-all-the-way version of Greek armor. Now that...still makes no goddamn sense, but I admire the retarded cleverness of the whole affair.

As far as practicality goes, the new costume isn't much better, but I rather like the look, overall.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The reason for costumes is that even with a million different artists the character is still easily recognisable.

[Nique]

1) Prems, that is an awesome cosplay pic and also, I mean, wow, overall.

2) It takes the gods shattering the timeline to make Wonder Woman decide to throw on some pants?

EDIT: Huh, actually looks like a photoshop. Still! Impressive concept.

[Premmy]

More Photo-Shoppage, Still, I REALLY would prefer the armor.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/550245/gallery/net/wonder%20woman/wwnew1.jpg

[Kyanbu The Legend]

There's also another that resembles her classic design with a few updates. It might be the final design.

Though either way. They are just screwing with the fans and likely trying to get them to care about WW.

[bluestarultor]

There's also another that resembles her classic design with a few updates. It might be the final design.

Though either way. They are just screwing with the fans and likely trying to get them to care about WW.

This implies that Wonder Woman isn't already one of the, if not THE, most-recognized women in the entire comic industry.

[Ytoabn]

It's always painful when these long established heroes get a reboot of any kind, especially when they try to become more "modern".

Am I wrong in believing that Batman has avoided the worst of this kind of rebooting. Sure he's died once or twice but other than that he seems to be the most consistent.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

This implies that Wonder Woman isn't already one of the, if not THE, most-recognized women in the entire comic industry.

What I meant was build up some free hype and attention for the comic.

[Magus]

She's the most recognizable female superhero but it doesn't mean people are going to be buying copies of a series with just Wonder Woman in it, for very long, either. She'll probably be relegated back to Justice League comics.

Batwoman's design is more visually appealing anyway, it's so damn RED. Plus she's a lesbian so they get to pretend they're being revolutionary in having a gay superhero (because we all know lesbians are incredibly hard to sell to the male teen crowd. It's not because it's hard to sell a gay male superhero. Not at all!)

[bluestarultor]

She's the most recognizable female superhero but it doesn't mean people are going to be buying copies of a series with just Wonder Woman in it, for very long, either. She'll probably be relegated back to Justice League comics.

Batwoman's design is more visually appealing anyway, it's so damn RED. Plus she's a lesbian so they get to pretend they're being revolutionary in having a gay superhero (because we all know lesbians are incredibly hard to sell to the male teen crowd. It's not because it's hard to sell a gay male superhero. Not at all!)

Teenagers don't buy comics as much as you seem to think. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that most of the audience is out in the professional workforce, just because it's the same assumption everyone makes with video games. If teenagers were actually buying comics, they wouldn't have to pull things like Ultimate Marvel to reboot the whole thing to try to capture them as a new audience.

Also, a gay superhero wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if they did it decently. They haven't yet (http://www.cracked.com/article_18502_the-5-most-unintentionally-offensive-comic-book-characters_p1.html), but they could. Actually, Northstar from Alpha Flight is gay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northstar) and they seem to have handled it pretty well, all told. Mostly because explicit homosexuality was censored at first, but he was supposed to be gay from the start and they actually treated him like a character even after the reveal, rather than a stereotype.

[Lithp]

(because we all know lesbians are incredibly hard to sell to the male teen crowd. It's not because it's hard to sell a gay male superhero. Not at all!)

Is hard to sell without being all stereotypical.

[Premmy]

Is hard to sell without being porn.
Cleaned that up for you.
Edit:
Here's something also interesting! (http://www.tencentticker.com/projectrooftop/2007/11/26/wonder-woman-wardrobe-war-winners/)