We will now discuss Naruto is a spoilery manner.

[Donomni]

It's either that or we continue wondering about butterflies and NOBEL SOULS.

So yeah Naruto(the manga) is seriously stepping up it's game in the not-awful department, what with the past few chapters being Minato being awesome(Like I'll-teleport-this-city-nuking-blast-no-problem awesome).

And now we have Kisame popping outta his shark-sword that eats chakra like candy and he gets smacked by Onimusha!Naruto and also Might Guy because anything gets goddamn better with Might Guy.

And you know, Killer Bee. Who I would still want to be voiced by Samuel L. Jackson if the dub ever gets that far but who knows.

[Art of Hilt]

It's either that or we continue wondering about butterflies and NOBEL SOULS.

Or we can talk about One Piece and how it manages not to be completely awful almost pretty consistently.
That's an option too.


Although wait what Might Guy is actually being a character that shows up and does stuff again?
The whole series is one thing but Might Guy is another, and that other thing is the shit.

[Lithp]

See, here's how I interpreted that stuff:

So yeah Naruto(the manga) is seriously stepping up it's game in the not-awful department, what with the past few chapters being Minato being awesome(Like I'll-teleport-this-city-nuking-blast-no-problem awesome).

You ask me, this was character derailment. Madara had every reason to know that attack was coming. He only got hit because the plot demands that Minato is even MORE ridiculous.

And now we have Kisame popping outta his shark-sword that eats chakra like candy and he gets smacked by Onimusha!Naruto and also Might Guy because anything gets goddamn better with Might Guy.

Another way Naruto's been making with the sucking lately. The Akatsukis' plan is...retarded. Seriously, what the Hell has Kisame been waiting for? His mission was to capture the 8-Tails. He's had him alone many times now, including a time on the high seas, when no one else would have been able to interrupt them. This chapter also confirms that the switch occurred in the bubble, which means that Kisame would have won that fight.

So...Kisame deliberately threw a fight he was WINNING, to wait for who the Hell knows what, only to have his cover blown, & now he's getting his ass handed to him.

And you know, Killer Bee. Who I would still want to be voiced by Samuel L. Jackson if the dub ever gets that far but who knows.

Killer Bee is cool, mostly for making Sasuke & Madara look like the morons they are for a change. But other than that, I tend to think that Pain took what was left of the plot with him when he died. Maybe Orochimaru will eventually come back & resurrect the story with him, but I'm doubting that increasingly.

[Sithdarth]

Ok so lets tabulate now. Naruto has:

1) Significantly more personal chakra then anyone else. Even Kakashi was impressed at the shear level of his natural chakra.

2) He has the ability to store and use an immense amount of nature chakra which among other insane things allows him to be better at chakra sensing then pretty much all sensory types.

3) Access to half of the 9 tails chakra which supposedly dwarfs both of is other immense chakra sources and gives him sensory abilities greater than sensory type ninja.

4) He now apparently has access to spacetime warping techniques like his father meaning he can teleport in addition to the massive speed increases from both nature chakra and the 9 tails chakra.

5) He can throw a chakra ball that can slice through anything and that if it hits will cut you apart on a cellular level. Which with practice he could probably teleport right into your gut.

So not only can he turn himself into a walking ball of chakra big enough to destroy the entire world he can find pretty much anyone and he can teleport instantly from place to place. He's getting into SSJ 4 territory. Seriously how do you compete with someone with better nature chakra than Jiraiya, more tailed beast chakra than Killer Bee, the teleportation abilities of the 4th hokage, better tracking senses then essentially anyone else, and a chakra attack that is simultaneously the pinnacle of both shape and nature manipulation which no one else can possibly do?

[Lithp]

Ok so lets tabulate now. Naruto has:

1) Significantly more personal chakra then anyone else. Even Kakashi was impressed at the shear level of his natural chakra.

2) He has the ability to store and use an immense amount of nature chakra which among other insane things allows him to be better at chakra sensing then pretty much all sensory types.

3) Access to half of the 9 tails chakra which supposedly dwarfs both of is other immense chakra sources and gives him sensory abilities greater than sensory type ninja.

4) He now apparently has access to spacetime warping techniques like his father meaning he can teleport in addition to the massive speed increases from both nature chakra and the 9 tails chakra.

5) He can throw a chakra ball that can slice through anything and that if it hits will cut you apart on a cellular level. Which with practice he could probably teleport right into your gut.

So not only can he turn himself into a walking ball of chakra big enough to destroy the entire world he can find pretty much anyone and he can teleport instantly from place to place. He's getting into SSJ 4 territory. Seriously how do you compete with someone with better nature chakra than Jiraiya, more tailed beast chakra than Killer Bee, the teleportation abilities of the 4th hokage, better tracking senses then essentially anyone else, and a chakra attack that is simultaneously the pinnacle of both shape and nature manipulation which no one else can possibly do?

By having a Sharingan. Let's look at Sasuke & Madara.

Sasuke has:

1. Mastered the Chidori to the point that he can surround his body with it, make weapons out of it, & do things that no one else can. Although these must be much more taxing than the original Chidori, he can do them repeatedly.

2. Amaterasu & Tsukiyomi. His skill with illusions has apparently surpassed Itachi's for no apparent reason, to the point that he didn't even need a Mantekyou to outdo him. And NOW he has an Eternal Mangekyou, which means that these skills will no longer do such intense damage to his eyes.

3. The Invincible Plot Armor that is Susanoo which has an attack that is apparently so fast that you need to warp reality to dodge it. Not only is he the only known Susanoo user in the series right now, who knows whether or not he gets anything ELSE from his Mangekyou?

4. As evident by all of these things, he must have truly massive chakra reserves, if he can keep using Mangekyou-level abilities with near impunity.

5. The ability to control goddamn lightning.

...While Madara is KNOWN to have:

1. An eternal Mangekyou Sharingan that grants him immortality, at least in the sense that he has no natural lifespan. This means that his natural abilities will never diminish due to age.

2. A space/time ninjutsu better than any other in the series so far.

3. It was hinted that, at his old power, he could single-handedly defeat all of the Kages.

4. Undoubtedly more secret reveals & power ups to come.

5. The ability to control the Nine Tailed Fox.

[Aerozord]

The sharigan was always stupid and cheap. No one should ever have a power thats BASIC form is being able to copy just about every technique you could ever possibly learn

Or we can talk about One Piece and how it manages not to be completely awful almost pretty consistently.
That's an option too.
[/I]

I tried that remember? It didn't last too long.

[Premmy]

I tried that remember? It didn't last too long.
These dorks just don't get it.
Anyway, Might Guy? any rock-lee? might be coolsies

[Fifthfiend]

I want to hate Naruto's last few chapters because it drives home harder than ever that all that shit about working hard to overcome your destiny or whatever was shit because Naruto Is Jesus And You're Not but getting past that it's got a decently satisfying story, some nice shit about Naruto's mom, who's a rad as fuck character and it's a damn shame she dead and they should totally keep having her come back, like fucking Obi-Wan, and then some characters throwing the fuck down and kicking ass and not being all boring as hell about it. And the shark dude is among many villains that I fucking hate and absolutely love to fucking hate, he's sneaky and has totally cheater bullshit "hide in mah sword" powers and fuck I don't even hate him I love that dude, he's the best.

[Lithp]

Kisame & Zetsu are the 2 rays of sunshine that keep me from hating the remaining villainous cast of Naruto entirely. They're so fucking awesome. Cracking snark while being decapitated? Emerging in the middle of the soap opera 5 Kage Summit to start a brawl for no apparent reason? I love those guys.

But I liked the old Sharingan. Copying jutsu that you were physically able to perform wasn't a bad ability. The way its sharper vision was incorporated was actually pretty clever.

Mangekyou wasn't bad either. It came at quite a price & gave a powerful unique ability.

But it started getting more & more shit out of nowhere. When Sasuke pulled that "I can see Chakra" shit, for example, there went the entire point of the Byakugan. And Susanoo was such bullshit that it leads me to believe that Orochimaru didn't die, but quit when he read about that nonsense in the script.

[EVILNess]

The Naruto/BLEACH relationship is pretty interesting. At least the way I see it, when one starts to get awesome the other starts to drag ass and not get anywhere.

[Lithp]

The Naruto/BLEACH relationship is pretty interesting. At least the way I see it, when one starts to get awesome the other starts to drag ass and not get anywhere.

I've been speculating that Kubo & Kishimoto have some kind of pattern, because they seem to alternate between when they reveal their big shit.

[EVILNess]

Maybe they are actually secret warring deities who thrive on the fan energies put out by their followers and then they build giant stages and then go to war and the winner gets the cooler comic for the month.

[Lithp]

You need many years of therapy. Many, many years of therapy.

[Aerozord]

Maybe they are actually secret warring deities who thrive on the fan energies put out by their followers and then they build giant stages and then go to war and the winner gets the cooler comic for the month.

that in and of itself sounds like an awesome comic

[Steel Shadow]

Nah, Naruto's plot's just folding in on itself now. Which is nice, I don't have to think about it anymore. Naruto has become Super-Naruto.

Guy showing up was awesome. and then it got awesomer. That is all.

[batgirl]

For me it's come to the point that I've read it for so long that I feel like I may as well just hang on for the ride. I liked it better when the story featured more than just Naruto and how awesome Naruto is but how Naruto must overcome his Naruto stigma and become the greatest Naruto in the world. I mean, yeah the show is titled with his name and he is the main focal point, but jeez where's everyone else? Remember back in the day when we had actual character development? Remember Shino? Tenten? Neiji? Kiba? Naruto hasn't even addressed the whole Hinata confessing her love for him thing. It was just thrown aside in favor of more training and the new "Deathscythe Hell" Naruto.

[Grimpond]

Might Guy makes everything better. I really can't think of anything else to say on this matter

[Lithp]

Might Guy makes everything worse.

Fixed.

Honestly, I'm not so torn up about the other characters getting shafted. They were boring anyway.

[Tev]

Neiji?Wait, there's no Neiji? But he's the reason I even bothered to watch Naruto a little bit in the first place. Well, I guess there's really no reason for me to read the manga to see what I've been missing then.

[Donomni]

Although wait what Might Guy is actually being a character that shows up and does stuff again?
The whole series is one thing but Might Guy is another, and that other thing is the shit.

Best part is that there's a 300% chance Killer Bee is gonna fight with Guy.

MIGHT GUY

KILLER BEE

THEY ARE ON A TEAM

You ask me, this was character derailment. Madara had every reason to know that attack was coming. He only got hit because the plot demands that Minato is even MORE ridiculous.

He got hit because it has to at least be possible to fight Madara. Once Naruto stops teleporting himself into a wall, he'll be able to actually fight Madara instead of never landing a goddamn hit.

Another way Naruto's been making with the sucking lately. The Akatsukis' plan is...retarded. Seriously, what the Hell has Kisame been waiting for? His mission was to capture the 8-Tails. He's had him alone many times now, including a time on the high seas, when no one else would have been able to interrupt them. This chapter also confirms that the switch occurred in the bubble, which means that Kisame would have won that fight.

So...Kisame deliberately threw a fight he was WINNING, to wait for who the Hell knows what, only to have his cover blown, & now he's getting his ass handed to him.

Now, maybe it's just me, but aren't Naruto and Bee on a secret island? You know, to hide out? Madara likely wanted Kisame to find where it is so when Sasuke has his new super-dee-duper-eyes they can just pop in and wham, bam, thank you, ma'am, and they have the last two tailed beasts.

Granted, if this is found to be total bunk, then yeah that is pretty nonsensical.

Killer Bee is cool, mostly for making Sasuke & Madara look like the morons they are for a change. But other than that, I tend to think that Pain took what was left of the plot with him when he died. Maybe Orochimaru will eventually come back & resurrect the story with him, but I'm doubting that increasingly.

Well, in regards to Orochimaru, Kabuto has basically taken up his work, but I wouldn't be surprised if later on Orochimaru takes over Kabuto's body and yeah that would be effing sweet huh?

General God Mode Naruto comments

I won't refute these, because they are totally true, but as Lithp said Naruto's dealing with some of the most broken villians ever in the manga.

Also, Kabuto is involved now, and he's shown Orochimaru's Make-Dead-Guys-Uber-Zombie-Slaves-Jutsu to Madara, with one of said Uber Zombies(although unseen) freaking the shit out of him.

That, and Madara still has 7 of the Tailed Beasts sealed. It's unlikely he can't utilize all that chakra.

Anyway, Might Guy? any rock-lee? might be coolsies

No Rock Lee, sadly. Mostly a result of the SEKRET ISLAND thing, meant to keep Naruto and Killer Bee safe.

The Naruto/BLEACH relationship is pretty interesting. At least the way I see it, when one starts to get awesome the other starts to drag ass and not get anywhere.

I think they have a general spoken rule that they can't have LOLAizen and LOLSasuke at the same time, due to the fact such insanity would cause a case of the dead-authors-by-fans-syndrome.

Also, someone's been playing Brütal Legend. :3:

Naruto hasn't even addressed the whole Hinata confessing her love for him thing.

AHHHHHHHH don't get me started on that bullshit. It's been, like, a fucking year. And even now Naruto didn't comment on his mom's advice for romance. On the one hand, it's shonen so I don't expect much, but on the other hand it's keyboard smashy-rage-time.

Wait, there's no Neiji? But he's the reason I even bothered to watch Naruto a little bit in the first place. Well, I guess there's really no reason for me to read the manga to see what I've been missing then.

Neji has been outta focus for awhile... I think since the Gaara arc at the start of Shippuden/Part 2. It's kinda sad: In Naruto, main characters are in the focus, but in Bleach it's the exact opposite.

[Lithp]

He got hit because it has to at least be possible to fight Madara. Once Naruto stops teleporting himself into a wall, he'll be able to actually fight Madara instead of never landing a goddamn hit.

I might be fine with that if it weren't for (A) a monkey could have seen through that strategy & (B) this little exchange:

Yamato: He has to solidify before attacking. That's when he can be hit.
Madara: You think so?

Or something like that. I don't remember the exact wording. The fact is that Madara hinted that there was an entirely different trick to his ability, making that come across as a massive anticlimax.

Granted, if this is found to be total bunk, then yeah that is pretty nonsensical.

I don't really remember, but regardless, I still say it's pretty nonsensical. Madara is supposed to be some kind of super genius who created the Akatsuki just to make himself disappear. If he was at all consistent in his character--which is pretty much a pipe dream--he'd realize that by far the simplest solution that exposes HIM to the fewest risks is to continue his "Capture the Tailed Beasts One By One" strategy while it's WORKING. What possible tactical benefit is there in trying to deal with both of the most powerful Tailed Beasts on their OWN terms?

Neji has been outta focus for awhile... I think since the Gaara arc at the start of Shippuden/Part 2. It's kinda sad: In Naruto, main characters are in the focus, but in Bleach it's the exact opposite.

But Bleach actually has interesting supporting characters! Granted, there are exceptions. Shikamaru was pretty badass. But I can't tell you how much I've come to loathe the majority of them. The filler arcs do more for their development than Shippuden does.

So...much...derailment....

"I am Sasuke! I want revenge on my brother! But then I found out he was a good guy! Who wanted to protect the village! Now I want revenge on them!"

"I am Sakura! I'm a cunning genjutsu specialist! Now I've got myself a teacher, so screw that shit, I'mma beat people up & practice medicine! But now that I've gotten my chance to save the day, I'mma go back to crying while Naruto does all of the work!"

"I am Hinata! I became more confident as of the end of Part I. But I'm now so bad that I literally faint around Naruto! But now I've revealed my love for him &...was forgotten...for months...."

Oh, but I DO go on.

Well, in regards to Orochimaru, Kabuto has basically taken up his work, but I wouldn't be surprised if later on Orochimaru takes over Kabuto's body and yeah that would be effing sweet huh?

I hope so, but Kishimoto seems to love cramming him onto long bus trips for no conceivable reason. Herp derp! Magic sword! Wut?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

This whole tread cements my belief that any story involving a god like character even 1, will suck in the end. Even more so if said character is a villain because then he can't be stopped without half of nearly everyone complaining about it. No matter how it's handled

So much for Naruto, Bleach, and possibly One Piece.

The only exceptions being the "So Bad it's Good" shows like TTGL that run on "Rule of Cool", "Rule of Funny",and or "Rule of Heart Warming".

[Art of Hilt]

So much for Naruto, Bleach, and possibly One Piece.

Does One Piece even have any unbeatable god-like characters though?
I mean, the latest arc just seems to confirm that, even if the characters are mind bogglingly powerful, they almost always have some sort of counter keeping the whole world in balance. If you go to war, regardless of which side you're on, the best you can hope for is a pyhrric victory.

[Arcanum]

Now this is just off the top of my head, and I'm too lazy to look back and try and find where this was mentioned, but wasn't it said that the Sage of Six Paths gave the power of his eyes to one bloodline and the power of his body to another? (Or something like that). And yeah, now that Naruto gained control of the Kyuubi, he's unlocked the Sage of Six Paths power that was deep in his blood or whatever, as evidence of his new appearance, and I think the Kyuubi even said "the sage of six paths?" when Naruto first changed appearances (but once again, too lazy to look back). So yeah, in addition to everything else Naruto has going for him, he's also the descendant (or has some of the power) of the one who created all ninjutsu.

Also, that thing you mentioned where Madara hinted that he didn't have to solidify to attack, I'm pretty sure that was just Madara trying to mess with them. I mean, I know it's standard for people in Shonen manga to explain how their powers work and what their weaknesses are, but I think Madara is evil/mysterious enough to try and get people second guessing what his power really is.

Oh and I think it has still yet to be revealed what Itachi gave to Naruto that one time wayy back in the forest when they were hunting for Sasuke, but if I had to guess based on recent events, it's probably gonna be a way for Itachi to talk to Sasuke during a climactic part his fight with Naruto, and he'll convince Sasuke to team up with Naruto to fight Madara, because that was his plan all along.

[Aerozord]

This whole tread cements my belief that any story involving a god like character even 1, will suck in the end. Even more so if said character is a villain because then he can't be stopped without half of nearly everyone complaining about it. No matter how it's handled


I dont know, Shaman King had a character that was actually God (as in the all powerful all knowing one) and it was pretty rad

[krogothwolf]

Now this is just off the top of my head, and I'm too lazy to look back and try and find where this was mentioned, but wasn't it said that the Sage of Six Paths gave the power of his eyes to one bloodline and the power of his body to another? (Or something like that). And yeah, now that Naruto gained control of the Kyuubi, he's unlocked the Sage of Six Paths power that was deep in his blood or whatever, as evidence of his new appearance, and I think the Kyuubi even said "the sage of six paths?" when Naruto first changed appearances (but once again, too lazy to look back). So yeah, in addition to everything else Naruto has going for him, he's also the descendant (or has some of the power) of the one who created all ninjutsu.


Yeah he did, it was in Chapter 499 I think.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I dont know, Shaman King had a character that was actually God (as in the all powerful all knowing one) and it was pretty rad

That was understandable

Considering that they in the end only won by trying the their last plan to stop him. Reason with him.

I was leaning more towards a rag tag group of heroes actually smacking down a god.

One Piece has had a few ridiculously powerful characters, but the Straw Hats always manage to somehow come out on top. It's only half way done though so only time will tell with it goes down hill or not.

[Lithp]

Also, that thing you mentioned where Madara hinted that he didn't have to solidify to attack, I'm pretty sure that was just Madara trying to mess with them.

Yes, but look at it from an out-of-context viewpoint: It's a big buildup to no payoff & you don't find out until like a MONTH later that they were right to begin with. Lame.

This whole tread cements my belief that any story involving a god like character even 1, will suck in the end. Even more so if said character is a villain because then he can't be stopped without half of nearly everyone complaining about it. No matter how it's handled.

Fullmetal Alchemist has Father. He gets even worse near the end. Still, relatively few people actually complain about him. Or even his Homumculi, some of which are quite ridiculous themselves.

The main problem with godlike characters is when no one can catch up. Think about if Orochimaru does come back, for instance. Are we going to be able to at all take him seriously without a Sharingan? Around characters who can warp reality? Hell, even looking at his original immortality shtick, it's a real wall-banger that several Akatsuki have much more efficient methods of beating death than he did.

[Sithdarth]

So apparently Guy can punch so damned hard it causes what amounts to tiny nuclear explosions. I for one am not surprised. It was only a matter of time really as Guy is just that awesome.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

So apparently Guy can punch so damned hard it causes what amounts to tiny nuclear explosions. I for one am not surprised. It was only a matter of time really as Guy is just that awesome.
Agreed.

Arguably might be one of the best fights in shippudon so far. (Or at least one of my favorites)

[Lithp]

Really? I hated it. I was okay with what he actually did, considering the whole 8 Inner Gates thing...then I remembered that the proposed explanation for the Gates is that they release the restrictions on your muscles. Now I'm calling bullshit. And the whole thing was basically just a short-lived pissing contest. Bunch of sharks! Bunch of fireballs! Giant shark blast! Giant tiger blast!

Also annoying was the ridiculous ways that the far more relevant Naruto & Bee were written out of that chapter. Granted, it's annoying that Kishimoto forgets his supporting cast, but it's even more annoying when the main character, after basically becoming a super powered badass, is promptly shoved to the side because he basically stubbed his toe at hypersonic speed.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Given the amount of attention Naruto has gotten during shippuden. It's nice to actually know other characters exist other then him. Not saying that the flash back arc and traning chapters were a lot but it's nice to not have him show up and pretty much beat shark boy in seconds.

Let his next opponent be Madara or Sasuke. For now it's everyone elses turn to be useful.

[Lithp]

Okay, then how about Sakura? She's the female lead. It's about time Kishimoto portrayed her as not only being competent, but staying that way.

Token Guy fight that lasts all of one chapter? Man, most of the filler arcs in the anime are more interesting than that.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Both work just as fine. Sakura could use some action.

[Lithp]

I'm kind of hoping that the "power" Itachi gave Naruto is actually intended for Sakura. I mean, he bested Kurenai, so he's pretty much the only illusionist capable of teaching someone to go up against the Akatsuki. Sakura's primary skill in Part 1 was Genjutsu. It just seems to make sense.

I am, however, predicting that it's just something that will bring Naruto's power level over 9000.

[Sithdarth]

Really? I hated it. I was okay with what he actually did, considering the whole 8 Inner Gates thing...then I remembered that the proposed explanation for the Gates is that they release the restrictions on your muscles. Now I'm calling bullshit.

There are a couple things you have to remember:

1) Guy does muscle training that would kill even Rock Lee. His naturally available strength is already stupidly large.

2) The Inner Gates actually restrict chakra flow in the body. The amount of chakra flowing determines your strength. You get stronger through training your muscles and increasing the natural limit of the amount of chakra your body can handle flowing. Releasing the Inner Gates releases the built in restrictions on chakra flow allowing you to use much more than your body can withstand. This works even for Rock Lee because from what I gather everyone ninja or not uses chakra reflexively to move around. Ninja just have more and have better non-reflexive control. Rock Lee on the other hand can't seem to do any non-reflexive chakra control but that doesn't matter because of his insane muscle strength and his ability to open the Inner Gates which increases your reflexive chakra flow. A normal Ninja would build up a tolerance to chakra by using chakra thereby raising the natural limits of their gates.

Essentially opening the gates unlocks all of your physical restrictions. Those placed on your muscles and those placed on your utilization of reflexive chakra.

[Donomni]

I gotta say, even if it was only two chapters, punching the air so hard it bursts into flames and firing a massive exploding tiger made this fight pretty damn sweet.

Of course, if Kisame doesn't actually die next chapter, hey we might actually get some more.

[Fifthfiend]

Shark guy: "I EAT MAGIC"

Guy guy: "I use no magic, I just PUNCH THE AIR TO MAKE IT EXPLODE. Also my sweat is on fire or some shit. Look I don't know how this crap works, I just know I'm gonna wreck your shit with it."

Me: "Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssss"

PS Thread should be titled "Naruto, better comic than Bleach"

[Art of Hilt]

"AFTERNOON TIGER"
Holy shit this is the best attack in this entire manga
"That's kind of a weak name"
fuck you Naruto you're the worst protagonist

[Sithdarth]

Not to be forgotten is the latter sequence:

Guy: "Sit there and don't move while I explain to you just how superior I am."

Shark guy: *twitch*

Guy: *punch hard enough to make the water under shark guy react like shark guy just skydived out of a plane doing a back flop into said water* "I said don't move bitch."

It takes some serious power to punch someone and make the water under them react like a semisolid.

[Arcanum]

It takes some serious power to punch someone and make the water under them react like a semisolid.

Probably why Kisame was unconscious in the next scene. But yeah, awesome chapter was awesome.

[Julford Hajime]

punching the air so hard it bursts into flames and firing a massive exploding tiger
http://www.thedigi-zone.com/images74Leo/CardScans/Bo-221.jpg

[Funka Genocide]

I mean they're obviously working with what works here. Pure-hearted protagonist with the power of a walking sun. I mean, we all knew Naruto was the second coming of whoever the fuck from day one right? What I've always appreciated about the series is how he gets there, not so much all the "arduous training" stuff but the emotional aspects, the friends and revelations and whatnot.

I mean come on, Naruto is pretty much the best, most lovable ninja ever.

When he bitch slaps Sasuke so hard he creates a time paradox sending emo-mckilledmybrother back in time to realize how awesome he's not I will be a happy camper.

Also, Might Guy does not care if you're some kind of weird fish man thing, he will punch your shit the fuck out and then relate a wholesome parable of justice to the next generation whilst smiling into the setting sun on a beach filled with the honest passion of youth fuck god damn shit flaming tigers.

[Lithp]

There are a couple things you have to remember:

Trust me, I haven't forgot.

1) Guy does muscle training that would kill even Rock Lee. His naturally available strength is already stupidly large.

It was said, way back in the beginning, that "no matter how hard you train, you can't strengthen your internal organs." The implication being that physical limits were still limits, training notwithstanding. That was just thrown right out the window.


PS Thread should be titled "Naruto, better comic than Bleach"

In Bizarro World.

It takes some serious power to punch someone and make the water under them react like a semisolid.

When did this happen?

[Donomni]

PS Thread should be titled "Naruto, better comic than Bleach"

Could some mod get all uppin's on that?

I totally would, but the last time I tried that the title was all "Fuuuuuck YOOOOOUUUU" and so forth.

[Fifthfiend]

In Bizarro World.

I admire your commitment to your wrong viewpoint!

[Sithdarth]

It was said, way back in the beginning, that "no matter how hard you train, you can't strengthen your internal organs." The implication being that physical limits were still limits, training notwithstanding. That was just thrown right out the window.

Since when are chakra gates internal organs? Aside from that if the chakra gates were some form of biological system they'd be more like muscles and which are easily strengthened through training. Even ones like your heart. Further, what does Guy's training increase muscle strength and thereby latent muscle strength have to do with internal organs anyway. Latent muscle potential is a percentage of normally applicable muscle strength. If you only have normally applicable muscle strength equal to 100 lbs of force and your latent potential is say 300% of that then with that all released that is 100 lbs + 300 lbs or 400 lbs. If instead you trained that muscle to have 200 lbs of normally applicable muscle strength your full released normal plus potential strength would be 800 lbs. The percentage change is the same but the overall magnitude is much greater. The more strength you start with the more potential strength you have to work with. So if we assume that the gates at least in part release latent muscle strength increasing your muscle strength through training is a very good way to make releasing the gates much more effective. If opening the gates makes a normal person superhuman than it'll do unbelievable things to someone that is already superhuman. Putting it another way if opening all the gates gives a relatively normal ninja power greater than a Kage then imagine what it would do to someone that already has the power of a Kage.

Further the passage you are referring two says a couple of other things. The first is that it separates the chakra system from the organs. It says they are closely related but clearly treats them as separate things. The second is that it says you can't harden them against straight up damage. That doesn't mean you can't harden them against the effects of your own chakra which is in general not intended to do damage. Such training is going to be useless against the gentle fist since that chakra is essentially concentrated damage and fundamentally different than normal chakra.

On top of that in general even if you couldn't harden yourself against your own chakra (which you must be able to do otherwise Naruto would still have chakra burns on his hands from some of this techniques and no one's chakra control would ever increase) that wouldn't limit you from increasing your potential unused chakra. It would just make using the Inner Gates more and more dangerous as your strength increased causing more and more damage to your body.

When did this happen?

Page 6. It might just be a case of the artist not fully understanding the physics of the situation though. Generally speaking if you put pressure on someone floating on water they both fold up and sink at the same time. Judging from how it was drawn the folding up happened but instead of sinking into the water it was simply pushed away like when you create a splash by diving. This effect happens because water is largely incompressible and when you hit it that hard for a second it behaves in some ways like a solid.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Trust me, I haven't forgot.


It was said, way back in the beginning, that "no matter how hard you train, you can't strengthen your internal organs." The implication being that physical limits were still limits, training notwithstanding. That was just thrown right out the window.


Except that the hidden lotus can damage the muscles not the internal organs, second this is a fictional comic. That argument doesn't hold, other wise you might as well ask how can a ninja walk on water or how can you run at speeds past 20 miles per hour, or how can anyone do most of the stuff seen in this comic.

Plus Might Guy has already been mentioned to be beyond normal in terms of physical abilities.

NEVER try to bring logic into a fantasy comic. It is by far the stupidest thing you could EVER do in a discussion about said fantasy comic.

[Lithp]

That argument doesn't hold, other wise you might as well ask how can a ninja walk on water.

They use chakra to cause the molecules to act more like a solid.

NEVER try to bring logic into a fantasy comic. It is by far the stupidest thing you could EVER do in a discussion about said fantasy comic.

No, THIS is the dumbest thing you could say in a discussion about a fantasy comic. Every genre has rules, as was demonstrated above. If there was absolutely 0 logic in a story, it would be impossible to follow. Not difficult, straight up impossible. Because at any given moment anything could happen with no justification whatsoever. Itachi could simply appear in a sealed room at random with no explanation ever given for how he got there, let alone came back to life.

Even something as batshit insane as FLCL has an inherent structure that you can follow. Things come out of Naota's head because he's transporting them with his N.O. He can do this because it was opened by Haruko when she hit his head, & she in turn can do that because she is an alien, & therefore has abilities & knowledge that normal humans do not. The REASON she did that was because she wanted to use him in a bid to obtain the power of Atomos, some badass space phoenix with N.O. that can steal entire solar systems.

FLCL, by the way, is a story that focuses on random humor & the entire premise is things appearing out of some kid's head. But, as ridiculous as it sounds, there MUST be some logic in the story for the sequence of events to make sense. I really rather doubt that you could even begin to understand a plotline that had absolutely no causality whatsoever.

In short, fantasy stories have in-universe rules, & when those rules are broken, it strains the audience's suspension of disbelief.

Since when are chakra gates internal organs?

That is not what I said. What I said was, "Physical limits cannot be bypassed just from training." The 8 Inner Gates just release muscles to their fullest potential. Muscles can't do that kind of shit, period.

Generally speaking if you put pressure on someone floating on water they both fold up and sink at the same time. Judging from how it was drawn the folding up happened but instead of sinking into the water it was simply pushed away like when you create a splash by diving. This effect happens because water is largely incompressible and when you hit it that hard for a second it behaves in some ways like a solid.

I'm still not understanding what you're getting at.

[Sithdarth]

Reread what you said here:

That is not what I said. What I said was, "Physical limits cannot be bypassed just from training." The 8 Inner Gates just release muscles to their fullest potential. Muscles can't do that kind of shit, period.

Then reread what you said here:

Every genre has rules, as was demonstrated above.

here:

Even something as batshit insane as FLCL has an inherent structure that you can follow. Things come out of Naota's head because he's transporting them with his N.O. He can do this because it was opened by Haruko when she hit his head, & she in turn can do that because she is an alien, & therefore has abilities & knowledge that normal humans do not.

here:

They use chakra to cause the molecules to act more like a solid.


and here:
In short, fantasy stories have in-universe rules,

Now stop and think to yourself what does this all mean put together. You might also want to consider if there exists a chakra system that doesn't exist in our world what other biological changes could exists. You might also consider that chakra can directly interact with muscles making them stronger. In Naruto muscle strength both does not follow normal human restrictions nor does it depend solely on physical muscle fiber like in our reality.

Oh and you could also compare this:

That is not what I said. What I said was, "Physical limits cannot be bypassed just from training."

With this:

It was said, way back in the beginning, that "no matter how hard you train, you can't strengthen your internal organs."

Which does absolutely nothing to support that point which is explains why I was confused.

This specifically:

The implication being that physical limits were still limits, training notwithstanding. That was just thrown right out the window.

Is constantly contradicted. Rock Lee is running around at super human speed with absolutely no direct chakra help on pure muscle with what seemed to be hundreds of pounds on his legs. Clearly realistic limits on physical strength do not exist. Guy being another prime example with his miles upon miles of hand walking and other physical exercises.

On top of all that what isn't explicitly clear about the fact that the gates specifically allow you to ignore your physical limits whatever they might be. Generally speaking in any fantasy genre abilities that specifically state you can ignore a rule trump that rule. As the saying goes there is an exception to every rule.

Of course beyond all that the Gates are supposedly doing a lot more to your body then just unlocking muscle strength. Everything from increasing your digestive ability to eliminating all your waste.

when those rules are broken, it strains the audience's suspension of disbelief.

None of Naruto's internal logic was broken. Mostly what was broken was your notion of what muscles should be really capable of which is absurd since that was long ago surpassed.

I'm still not understanding what you're getting at.

When you press on a liquid it usually moves out of the way and allows you to sink with very little resistance i.e. liquids can not support weight unless there is no where for it to go. When you create a splash and don't sink it is because the liquid supported your weight. Essentially for a time period the liquid behaved as a solid. If you hit any liquid so hard that it can't get out of the way in time it will behave very similarly to a non-Newtonian fluid. That is why belly flops hurt and skydiving from a plane a mile up into water without a parachute is still deadly. Guy hit him so hard the water somewhat supported his weight thus the semisolid comment.

[Funka Genocide]

Do you even know the requisite force necessary to rupture vital human organs?

Here's a hint, its less than the force required to send someone spiraling several dozen yards into the air.

Point being: organs don't work like they should in the Naruto-verse, and this is well established by the massive beatings many characters manage to survive.

You're nitpicking a minor facet of fantastical physiology in an attempt to be too cool for school, so to speak. It's a fucking shonen manga, if you were that cool you wouldn't know how to pronounce the title.

[Lithp]

Now stop and think to yourself what does this all mean put together.

That stories don't lack logic, they just may have slightly different variables. So?

On top of all that what isn't explicitly clear about the fact that the gates specifically allow you to ignore your physical limits whatever they might be.

There certainly is the possibility that the dub fucked up, yes.

None of Naruto's internal logic was broken.

Naruto's internal logic was broken when Kishimoto decided that the Sharingan could suddenly see Chakra & cast Genjutsu.

Guy hit him so hard the water somewhat supported his weight thus the semisolid comment.

I see. It was my impression that the water wasn't that deep. Or maybe it's an effect of the technique used to stand on it. But yeah, I see where you're going with that.

Point being: organs don't work like they should in the Naruto-verse, and this is well established by the massive beatings many characters manage to survive.

My argument was only made to dispel the notion that there is no logic in a story just because it's fiction. This point proves nothing because, for starters, I never said that I was okay with that to begin with. Therefore, there is no demonstrated contradiction in what I'm saying.

Yes, some things are certainly stretched. How much stretching a person can handle is his or her suspension of disbelief.

You're nitpicking a minor facet of fantastical physiology in an attempt to be too cool for school, so to speak. It's a fucking shonen manga, if you were that cool you wouldn't know how to pronounce the title.

What you're doing is attributing motives to me that are not there.

Let me ask you something: If the claim that there "is no logic in a fantasy story" is true, & that invalidates my complaints about Naruto, then what is the justification for the Bleach thread? Or the old thread about the Avatar movie.

According to that line of logic, there is nothing wrong with those stories. They are fantasy, so they do not need to be held to logic, which means there can't be any such thing as a bad plot device in either of them.

[Funka Genocide]

The coolest people on the internet are always the people who explain simplistic ideas ad-nauseum in a manner suggesting the general audience doesn't quite understand their complexity.

Everyone understands the concept of suspension of disbelief, we can move on now I think.

You seem to be contradicting yourself in a roundabout manner by emphasizing an internally consistent logic to fantasy fiction while pointing out the erroneous (from a realistic perspective) nature of certain physiological foibles present in this particular fantasy. It kind of feels like a classic strawman where you hold up such statements as "muscles can't do that shit, period" against these rather unnecessary dissertations on the primacy of suspension of disbelief.

In short I think you're just going around in smug little circles to no apparent end.

[Arcanum]

Naruto's internal logic was broken when Kishimoto decided that the Sharingan could suddenly see Chakra & cast Genjutsu.

The Sharingan didn't "suddenly" become able to see Chakra and cast Genjutsu. It was revealed that advanced forms of the Sharingan can do that. It was always clear that the Sharingan was an eye technique that could constantly evolve and grow stronger. That it evolves to the point where it starts to encompass other eye techniques' abilities as well is not really surprising, especially since the Byakugan by comparison has always been static in terms of what it does. Also, all eye techniques stem from the same original technique, the Rinnegan, so it is even less surprising that an eye technique that can evolve gains abilities similar to other eye techniques. In fact, the Sharingan's ability to constantly become stronger is one of the reasons (if not the reason) that the higher ups decided the Uchiha were too dangerous to keep around.

So no, Naruto's internal logic has not been broken by this, Naruto is currently better than Bleach, and Sithdarth's arguments continuously beat yours.

But that's just my two cents.

edit -- I also agree with Funka (Ninja bastard). And it's not just in this thread that you do this either, you argue pointlessly in other threads as well. To be honest it's getting tiresome.

[Sithdarth]

Naruto's internal logic was broken when Kishimoto decided that the Sharingan could suddenly see Chakra & cast Genjutsu.


Two rules to any fantasy genre:

1) Great authors never provide perfect information. All expositions should be taken with a grain of salt. When actions contradict an explanation that generally indicates a case of imperfect exposition which contributes to making the work realistic. After all you rarely get perfect information in real life. When a contradiction occurs you should look for foreshadowing of it. If the writer is any good it exists somewhere though sometimes they forget.

2) The author is the final arbiter of the internal logic of the story. A good one will foreshadow rules that seem to apply might not always apply or might not apply to everyone. Beyond that of course there is the fact that there are exceptions to every rule and all fantasy genres are predicated on the fact that heroes defy rules and expectations.

That stories don't lack logic, they just may have slightly different variables. So?

So one of those variables happens to be human physiology.

There certainly is the possibility that the dub fucked up, yes.


Yeah and maybe grass is actually blue we just screwed up when we called it green.

I see. It was my impression that the water wasn't that deep.

Before that both of them sunk fully into it and neither one seemed to move any closer to shore.

Let me ask you something: If the claim that there "is no logic in a fantasy story" is true, & that invalidates my complaints about Naruto, then what is the justification for the Bleach thread? Or the old thread about the Avatar movie.

According to that line of logic, there is nothing wrong with those stories. They are fantasy, so they do not need to be held to logic, which means there can't be any such thing as a bad plot device in either of them.

The only person making the no logic point Kyanbu. As far as I can tell Funka and I are attempting to get you to realize that the underlying axioms that control the Universe could be substantially different. You can't assume things like physiology operating under the same rules as in our reality. Obviously some parts of the physiology carry over but that doesn't mean other portions won't seem entirely illogical to us in terms of our reality but be fully logical in the fantasy because it is a fantasy.

[Lithp]

Alright, let me just see if I can make some sense out of this clusterfuck:

So there are some inconsistencies in my argument. Fine, I'll admit this. How much of Naruto's logic is currently being followed is a difficult thing to determine, if we're going to start with things like whether or not human evolution would have occurred differently.

At the very least, we have shown that logic is applicable to a fantasy story, which is what I wanted to do to begin with. Therefore, if we accept that there is reason to believe that Naruto is violating its own logic, then my complaints are sensible.

If I think that Bleach is maintaining its story's consistency better than Naruto, then it also follows that I would think that Bleach is a better story.

About my "trying to be too cool," frankly, that's just nonsense. I used to like Naruto, only starting to become discontent around the time Pain died. It just built from there. If someone wants to believe that I have an ulterior motive, that's their prerogative, but I certainly can't be expected to disprove it.

[Sithdarth]

if we're going to start with things like whether or not human evolution would have occurred differently.

This is a very big flaw in your logic. In a fantasy setting there is no reason to believe any evolution happened at all. For all we know the Naruto Earth is flat and there is no such thing as space. You can bring nothing to bear on the internal logic of a fantasy setting except the events in the setting and the generic methods of logic. As hard as it is you have to drop all preconceptions about how reality should work and derive the rules of the world from the ground up. Luckily writers tend to have a lot in common and a lot of the most basic elements of fantasy settings translate to basically all other fantasy settings. There are general sort of fuzzy rules that tend to apply to any fantasy setting which are a good place to start when trying to reconstruct the rules of reality for a new setting you have just encountered. There is a reason why the majority of the beginning of any story is setting and exposition. You have to tell your readers at least partially how to construct the rules of your reality and a good writer will keep some hidden for suspense later.

[Lithp]

Alright, then substitute that for the more general "evolution," IE change over time.

That's exactly what I mean, though. Those are a lot of assumptions. So, okay, I will grant that I can't say 100% for certain anything about any of those.

However, the very fact that they are assumptions leaves room for interpretation. That would mean that I at least have some reason to believe that the logic is being violated.

I would think that is a reasonable position, yes?

[Sithdarth]

I would think that is a reasonable position, yes?

Not really. For this reason:


However, the very fact that they are assumptions leaves room for interpretation. That would mean that I at least have some reason to believe that the logic is being violated.

Logic that is not absolute cannot be violated. If you can't be sure of your assumptions you cannot be sure of the logical results derived from those assumptions. Any apparent violation is just as likely (probably more likely) to be your fault. Truly logical and unbiased analysis requires you to with hold any and all conclusions in that situation and wait for more information with which to test your assumptions.

We could also get into Godel and how no logical system can be both complete and consistent. As such any realistically constructed alternate reality should have contradictions and/or unprovable statements or rather their existence doesn't run counter to suspension of belief.

This is neither here nor there though. The more I think about this chapter the more I like it for its shear awesome. I can totally appreciate it for its purely aesthetic awesomeness.

[IHateMakingNames]

Here is where this all went wrong.

It was said, way back in the beginning, that "no matter how hard you train, you can't strengthen your internal organs." The implication being that physical limits were still limits, training notwithstanding. That was just thrown right out the window.
No. This implies that if you punch a ninja's liver directly, it's just like punching a normal person's liver. You can toughen up the body, but skipping that fleshy shield works.

Every other aspect of the manga implies that physical limits are out the window, specifically Rock Lee, and now Guy.

Then you guys started arguing about things that aren't an issue because of that.

[Lithp]

Well, if we're not in agreement, then I'd say that there is also no sense saying that the logic is being followed, if one has to assume such things.

And I hate the chapter for its over-the-top ridiculousness.

[Arcanum]

And I hate the chapter for its over-the-top ridiculousness.

But that's the best part about it!

[Lithp]

But that's the best part about it!

I can partially agree to this. If there's one thing I can say about Guy & Kisame, it's that they're funny as shit.

[Sithdarth]

then I'd say that there is also no sense saying that the logic is being followed, if one has to assume such things.

Uh no logic is a system with very general rules. As long as those rules are adhered to it doesn't matter how outlandish the assumptions and axioms in use are as long as they are backed up by the events of the story. If the story is predicated on magical Elves that make grass green because a cat walked backwards on some past or future Thursday then the statement A cat walked backwards on Thursday therefore grass is green is a perfectly logical statement and the story is following logic or more specifically its internal logic. You can build a system based on seemingly illogical assumptions and still have a completely logical system. Hyperbolic geometry anyone? If you don't like that there is also Quantum Mechanics, Special and General Relativity, and many other examples in physics and math. The key to properly applying logic in the most pure and general sense is stripping away absolutely everything you think you know and judging the validity of your assumptions and axioms based solely on the validity of the logical conclusions they provide as born out by the system you are applying logic to.

The key to enjoying Shonen Manga is to turn your brain off and enjoy it for what it is.

[Lithp]

The problem is that there are plenty of things that are not backed up by reasons given in the story. For example, there is no reasoning for how a humanoid species could exist on a planet with no moon, even though it apparently happened. Assuming that the plot makes sense for no other reason than that it happened that way is circular reasoning.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Who knows, there might of actually been a moon before (and was destroyed by something). Heck the Sages of the six paths could very well be Naruto's version of Gods.

[Lithp]

In which case, that would be a reasonable explanation for the moon bullshit. Still, I may be forced to ragequit the manga if that happens.

But, yeah, I can kind of ignore the moon thing because I was kind of digging this "the most badass Naruto characters are like mythological beings" thing for a while.

[Art of Hilt]

Wait what, the Naruto world has no moon.
Whaat are you guys being serious here.
No wait why is there no moon, why is the existence of the moon and its subsequent erasure even brought up in the first place.

[Lithp]

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, but there was a recent thing about how the Sage of the Six Paths created the moon to house the body of the Ten Tailed Beast. Oh, & Madara wants to use it to hypnotize the world.

That's so dumb when you say it out loud....

[Art of Hilt]

I- okay, so the moon was a recent invention?
And it has a... Ten-Tailed Beast?
I-, I- why am I reading this manga again?

EDIT- oh right because of Gai punching flaming tigers okay.

[Lithp]

That's pretty much my reaction, except switch out Gai punching flaming tigers with "the hope that Orochimaru will come back."

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I- okay, so the moon was a recent invention?
And it has a... Ten-Tailed Beast?
I-, I- why am I reading this manga again?

EDIT- oh right because of Gai punching flaming tigers okay.

Well no, they don't exactly say how long ago it was made. And there might of been a moon before it that may have been destroyed by the ten-tail.

[Sithdarth]

The problem is that there are plenty of things that are not backed up by reasons given in the story. For example, there is no reasoning for how a humanoid species could exist on a planet with no moon, even though it apparently happened.

Irrelevant to a fantasy setting. The laws of physics, chemistry, biology, etc only apply as far as the author says they do and that isn't very far when you've got a chakra circulatory system and people creating water, fire, and lightning out of nowhere and throwing balls of chakra at each other. Not to mention giant talking frogs, snakes, slugs, turtles and who knows what else. What ever is happening it isn't evolution as we know it.

Assuming that the plot makes sense for no other reason than that it happened that way is circular reasoning.

That is no where near what I said. First off I said very clearly that when you find a contradiction you withhold judgment unless/until you've got more information or a review of old information clears it up taking into account that not all information given to you might be correct. At that point the plot makes sense because the author followed a set of rules that follow the rules of logic or in other words the plot makes sense for no other reason than it happened logically. Incidentally this is also how we do science and math especially when it gets counter intuitive. We accept wave particle duality precisely because as illogical as it seems it still follows a set of rules that adhere to logic and the reality it describes is both logically sound and matches what is seen. The same process must be applied to any fantasy setting.

Also, as I said before any system based on logic that perfectly describes everything is totally unrealistic as proven by Godel. Which is a good thing to keep in mind. There has to be some inconsistencies/mysteries to make the world feel real.

That and your still assuming there is such a thing as space in Naruto and that the Naruto Earth is round and that there are no other explanations possible for stable seasons.

At least it isn't like Bleach where even though Aizen's power has been expounded on greatly it is still entirely unclear exactly what it does and what its limits are. That and we know Kubo has a habit of using false exposition in terms of the powers of his characters, I'm looking at you Gin. So there is no real way to conclusively know what Aizen is capable of until he fights seriously and even then the nature of his power might prevent that.

[EVILNess]

LOL @ people over-thinking shonen manga.

[BitVyper]

That was understandable

Considering that they in the end only won by trying the their last plan to stop him. Reason with him.


Um, as far as I know, the Shaman King manga ended with the group trying their damnedest to get to Hao BEFORE he could become God, but while he was weak in his transformation so they could kill him. And unfortunately never went further than that.

Then the anime made a shitty filler ending made of shit that actually managed to be worse than no ending at all. And I don't think they reasoned with Hao in that one either.

[Lithp]

First off I said very clearly that when you find a contradiction you withhold judgment unless/until you've got more information or a review of old information clears it up taking into account that not all information given to you might be correct.

I had said that there was as little sense in saying that the logic is being followed as that it is not being followed. Your response was, "Uh no." In other words, you did not clearly say to withhold judgment.

At that point the plot makes sense because the author followed a set of rules that follow the rules of logic or in other words the plot makes sense for no other reason than it happened logically.

Wait, what is "at that point"? Is "that point" where you are in the story, or after all information has been given?

That and your still assuming there is such a thing as space in Naruto and that the Naruto Earth is round and that there are no other explanations possible for stable seasons.

There is space in Naruto. If there wasn't, there couldn't be space/time ninjutsu.

At least it isn't like Bleach where even though Aizen's power has been expounded on greatly it is still entirely unclear exactly what it does and what its limits are.

Madara.
Sasuke.
Probably Naruto.
I'd be willing to bet Zetsu. Speaking of, we're probably never going to get an explanation for why he, Kisami, & Orochimaru are--well, whatever they are.
Hell, Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, & Susanoo were abilities exlusive to Itachi until Kishimoto decided that wasn't true at complete random.

[Kim]

There is space in Naruto. If there wasn't, there couldn't be space/time ninjutsu.

...I'm pretty sure those are two different spaces...

[IHateMakingNames]

Um, as far as I know, the Shaman King manga ended with the group trying their damnedest to get to Hao BEFORE he could become God, but while he was weak in his transformation so they could kill him. And unfortunately never went further than that.
Unrelated to Naruto, but they finished the Shaman King manga. You need to get to googling.

[Lithp]

...I'm pretty sure those are two different spaces...

Okay, then there's space because of the night sky. Yes, there is an infinite number of possible assumptions for pretty much anything.

That's why logic uses razors. Why should I imagine that, say, the sky is an elaborate genjutsu, when the far simpler explanation is just to assume that it's fucking outer space until something to the contrary is said?

Maybe Naruto is secretly 3 large weasels in a boy costume. There is never going to be a statement specifically denying that. In spite of that, I'm gonna go ahead & never factor that possibility into my interpretation of the story ever.

If you want to wait for every single "what if" scenario to be exposed, then you're never going to be able to make any kind of commentary whatsoever, because it isn't going to happen.

[Sithdarth]

I had said that there was as little sense in saying that the logic is being followed as that it is not being followed. Your response was, "Uh no." In other words, you did not clearly say to withhold judgment.


There is more than one conversation going one here. There is the one specifically about if Naruto violates its own internal logic and there is the one about how logic operates in fantasy realms in general. In terms of Naruto and basically any fantasy setting having to make assumptions like there is no such thing as outerspace is not even remotely grounds for saying logic is not being followed. The only way logic is not being followed is if something happens that was never explained nor could potentially be explained. Like if one of the side characters suddenly showed up with a second head growing out of their shoulder and no one noticed or acknowledged something is wrong. That is the only kind of thing that dictates if a fantasy setting is illogical or not. Being forced to assume that every night magic gnomes paint the stairs on the sky because at some point during the plot you meet a star painting gnome does not make the story illogical. Once again assumptions that seem illogical are never a reason to call a story illogical. The story remains logical until you can't connect those assumptions to the events of the story. Like if after meeting the star painting gnome the hero jumps into a rocket and visits Alpha Century that would be illogical.

Wait, what is "at that point"? Is "that point" where you are in the story, or after all information has been given?

I'd say this is an entirely individual thing and any individual reader may never reach this point. Try reading anything by Philip K Dick. His stories have a wonderful internal logic that I know must exist but I can never quite put my finger on.

There is space in Naruto. If there wasn't, there couldn't be space/time ninjutsu.

Yeah outerspace ? space

Madara.
Sasuke.
Probably Naruto.
I'd be willing to bet Zetsu. Speaking of, we're probably never going to get an explanation for why he, Kisami, & Orochimaru are--well, whatever they are.


The difference being that none of these people aren't the sole enemy and we have examples of all of them losing at least once. We know that there is a why to counter them. Aizen had a hole blown into his chest and it didn't even cause him to blink and that was without whatever other power his sword actually has.

Hell, Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, & Susanoo were abilities exlusive to Itachi until Kishimoto decided that wasn't true at complete random.

It doesn't even remotely seem random. We've got a grand total of three examples of users of that particular eye. For a very long time we only had two and only one of them was at that level. Those two were brothers making them closely related and therefore making the genetic expression of their powers likely to be very similar. Further, Itachi straight up implanted powers into his brother and apparently Naruto. That change was about a completely random as having a hole in your foot after shooting yourself in the foot.

That's why logic uses razors. Why should I imagine that, say, the sky is an elaborate genjutsu, when the far simpler explanation is just to assume that it's fucking outer space until something to the contrary is said?

Maybe Naruto is secretly 3 large weasels in a boy costume. There is never going to be a statement specifically denying that. In spite of that, I'm gonna go ahead & never factor that possibility into my interpretation of the story ever.

The point is that you didn't do that at all. You assumed muscle strength limits were somehow the same as in reality. Something to the contrary happened and instead of saying "Oh I made a bad assumption" you said "WTF Naruto has no internal logic!" which is well wrong.

If you want to wait for every single "what if" scenario to be exposed, then you're never going to be able to make any kind of commentary whatsoever, because it isn't going to happen.

There is a difference between doing that and simply allowing for the possibility of your assumptions being proven wrong by the story which you did not do at the beginning of this. You stated Naruto had no logic because it violated an assumption you had made about how muscles in the series work. This was not a problem with the logic of the story it was a problem with your logic i.e. an inability to accept the possibility of your base assumptions being incorrect.

[Grimpond]

YO DAWG I LOVE HOW THESE THREADS ARE SO FUCKING AWESOME WHEN THE FOOLS ARE IGNORED.
IT'S LIKE A GOD DAMN BREATH OF FRESH AIR UP IN THIS SHIT OH MAN I'M BREATHIN AND IT'S JUST SOOOOOOOOO GOOD MY GOD YOU HAVE TO TRY THIS AIR.



EDIT: IT WOULDN'T BE THE COMIC IT IS TODAY WITHOUT WILLFUL IGNORANCE OF PHYSICS SO JUST ENJOY THE RIDE DAWG!

EDITEDIT: Aight, sorry guys, I just got a little fed up with it.

[Fifthfiend]

No, THIS is the dumbest thing you could say in a discussion about a fantasy comic. Every genre has rules, as was demonstrated above. If there was absolutely 0 logic in a story, it would be impossible to follow. Not difficult, straight up impossible. Because at any given moment anything could happen with no justification whatsoever.

So, like Bleach, then?

[BitVyper]

Unrelated to Naruto, but they finished the Shaman King manga. You need to get to googling.

For serious? Is it any good? If so, that's pretty fantastic.

[Arcanum]

Oh man, you guys are still arguing? Can't you take it to the PMs or something instead of clogging this thread up?

For serious? Is it any good? If so, that's pretty fantastic.

I read Shaman King a few months back since I never ever read it or watched the anime, and I was pretty satisfied with how it ended, though it was kind of.... depressing I guess. Not your typical Shonen ending, that's for sure.

[BitVyper]

Honestly, it wasn't your typical shonen series, which is pretty much what made it great.

Edit: The main character has a perfectly happy relationship with his bride-to-be throughout the entire series for chrissakes. That just doesn't happen in shonen.

[POS Industries]

YOU KIDS CALM THE FUCK DOWN ABOUT YOUR ANIMES OR I WILL TURN THIS THREAD AROUND AND GO HOME I SWEAR TO GOD

[Lithp]

Edit: Post replaced with something else.

So, what does everyone suppose is going on with Orochimaru/Kabuto?

[POS Industries]

No no, see, Lith, that means you.

You and Sith can feel free to give this whole stupid argument a rest, since neither of you is going to convince the other of anything. It's a pointless exercise that's apparently getting on everyone else's nerves to the point that Grim up there is being kind of a dick about it.

Also Grim quit being a dick about it.

So you guys just chill out, take a breather, do something else other than continue this argument for the sake of all these innocent weeaboos that want to have fun talking about their weeaboo comics for girls. Thank you.

[Lithp]

No no, see, Lith, that means you.

What? Eh, I'm good with stopping. At the same time, I don't feel any strong incentive to not continue. I'm just kinda going with it.

[POS Industries]

At the same time, I don't feel any strong incentive to not continue.
All I can offer you is coercive incentives.

But thank you for stopping.

[Lithp]

You're welcome, POS.

Now I'm talking about the most interesting plot point in the series right now.

[Premmy]

the most interesting plot point in the series right now.
Naruto died?
:aaa::dance:

[Sithdarth]

Just going to say it kind of sucks that two people that have a slightly different way of enjoying a form of media can't have a mostly polite conversation about it in a place designed for that because other people can't appreciate the media in the same way. Especially when its not that hard to simply look at who posted and then ignore or skim the post. I could see it if we were like yelling and screaming at each other but it wasn't like that. Just seems kind of sad that not everyone gets to calmly discuss this in the manner they like just because it annoys some people.

In other news does anyone remember how apparently Naruto was a super fast healer to begin with and how the normal 9 tails chakra accelerated that? Now that he's got full control over whatever the hell that new Chakra is shouldn't he be healing like instantly? Although he did seem to be chasing after Guy rather well.

[BitVyper]

I haven't kept up with Naruto, but wasn't his super healing greatly shortening his lifespan?

[Sithdarth]

Rereading apparently it's mostly the Ninetails chakra doing the healing. I think the life shortening aspect came into play at 4 tails where the chakra was simultaneously ripping his body apart and healing it at the same time. It certainly seems like all the caustic effects of the Chakra have disappeared though. That could mean the healing aspect was removed or reduced as well but that would be strange.

Of course if the healing is still there and he uses the Ninetails chakra plus the sage chakra, which makes him almost impossible to hurt, he'll be essentially invincible. It'll be almost impossible to cause damage and what little damage you do will be healed almost instantly.

[Fusionman]

Rereading apparently it's mostly the Ninetails chakra doing the healing. I think the life shortening aspect came into play at 4 tails where the chakra was simultaneously ripping his body apart and healing it at the same time. It certainly seems like all the caustic effects of the Chakra have disappeared though. That could mean the healing aspect was removed or reduced as well but that would be strange.

Of course if the healing is still there and he uses the Ninetails chakra plus the sage chakra, which makes him almost impossible to hurt, he'll be essentially invincible. It'll be almost impossible to cause damage and what little damage you do will be healed almost instantly.

Gary Stu off!!! I mean it's like 3 Gary Stus at this point!

[Donomni]

The thing about Naruto's self-healing is that it's like Deadpool's: it depends on the severity of the wound/injury/whathaveyou.

Getting gutted heals a lot faster compared to a sprained ankle, for example.

The main difference, of course, is that Naruto's healing isn't constantly working and driving him insane and aware he's in a comic.

I haven't kept up with Naruto, but wasn't his super healing greatly shortening his lifespan?

Well, yes, but it's been recently said that the Uzumakis have longer lifespans in general, so his lifespan is likely a normal person's. I assume it's Kishimoto's way of not writing hisself into a corner in regards to that.

[Fifthfiend]

Or, writing himself into a corner, and then pulling some bullshit out of a hat.

[Fusionman]

Or, writing himself into a corner, and then pulling some bullshit out of a hat.

Once again Fifthfiend tells it as it is.

[Sithdarth]

Getting gutted heals a lot faster compared to a sprained ankle, for example.

So the moral of the story is that if you want to take down the main character of Naruto cause him to stub his toe.

[Lithp]

The Uzumaki Clan in general was the world's biggest asspull.

The most horrifying thing, to me, is that he still hasn't defined what he means by "special chakra."

[greed]

The Uzumaki Clan in general was the world's biggest asspull.

The most horrifying thing, to me, is that he still hasn't defined what he means by "special chakra."


Honestly I'm kinda happy with this as like 99% of shonen series, the hero's dad is like some super badass from an long line of ancient powers who gives his son a dark but powerful heritage and the mum is just like, some random housewife who either stays at home and has no real part in the story outside of maybe a flashback arc were she's the dad's love interest. Or she's as above, but dead.

Here though the mum's a badass from a long line of ancient and mysterious powers who gave her son a dark but powerful heritage.... and the dad's just some random guy with no special powers who just happens to be ridiculously cool and strong cause he trained and shit. I just thought it was a nice play on the usual thing. I mean think about it, if Naruto's dad was never mentioned or talked about for 400 chapters, other than dropping his name like 200 chapters ago, you'd expect some kind of crazy revelation like this when he finally showed up.

[Lithp]

I tend to think that Kushina is false progressiveness. By which I mean, okay, she's mentioned as being really strong & having superpowered chakra or whatever.

Now let's consider what she provides the story, in terms of practicality:

1. She's the 4th Hokage's wife.
2. She's the mother of Naruto.

And...that's basically it. In spite of her Informed Abilities, she's either being saved by Minato or mothering Naruto in every instance we see her.

And I don't even care that she's a flashback character. So is Minato. And he's still always been known as the most powerful Hokage, the guy who bitchslapped the Nine Tails, & most recently, 1 of 2 characters who's ever fucked up Madara, in addition to being Naruto's father.

It also isn't really much a revelation, because you expect a revelation to be somehow important. This is just more of the focus shifting from "Naruto works hard" to "Naruto is a destined hero." The only practical use for this plot device I can possibly see is to allow Madara to reach full power & Naruto to still be around to stop him. And even that could have been handled in a number of ways.

Frankly, the only female character Kishimoto is remotely competent with writing for is Tsunade.

[Arcanum]

In spite of her Informed Abilities, she's either being saved by Minato or mothering Naruto in every instance we see her.

Just pointing out that when she was saved, she was kidnapped when she was like 6 years old by a bunch of Jounin ninjas who probably organized the kidnapping so as to do it in a way that wouldn't allow Kushina to fight back in any way whatsoever (especially considering she was a jinchuriki and if they fucked up they would be screwed).

And when she's mothering Naruto and being useless, it's because she just had a freaken kid and had the nine-tails fox ripped out of her, which she survived. (something that no other character has been able to do).

Actually, that fact alone just shows how strong Kushina really is. She survived having the Nine-tails ripped from her body, and still had enough strength to help seal half of the nine-tails chakra into Naruto.

And as for this:
This is just more of the focus shifting from "Naruto works hard" to "Naruto is a destined hero."

I mean... you do realize this is a Shonen manga, with Naruto as the main character... right? Naruto was destined to be the hero ever since the manga's title was his name. But that still doesn't change the fact that Naruto worked his ass off to get to the level he is at now.

[Kim]

This is just more of the focus shifting from "Naruto works hard" to "Naruto is a destined hero."

So what you're saying is it's turning into Bleach.

[Fifthfiend]

In fairness it is less annoying for a comic to just be about its dumb destined hero of heroic dumb destiny than it is to set itself up like it's going to be about a guy working really hard to defy destiny and THEN be like naw ya'llz homes be destined like a motherfucker.

[Aerozord]

I tend to think that Kushina is false progressiveness. By which I mean, okay, she's mentioned as being really strong & having superpowered chakra or whatever.

Now let's consider what she provides the story, in terms of practicality:

1. She's the 4th Hokage's wife.
2. She's the mother of Naruto.

And...that's basically it. In spite of her Informed Abilities, she's either being saved by Minato or mothering Naruto in every instance we see her.

To be fair by Japanese culture not doing this would be degridation not progression. In Japan a good wife and mother supports her husband and child. If she wasn't that then to them she would be a bad mother. If rolls were reversed Minato would be seen as a poor father for not being the head of the house and setting a poor example of responsibilities of a man.

Now I do agree with what you are saying. I am just pointing out, expecting anything else from a Japanese shonen series is expecting too much

[edit]
In fairness it is less annoying for a comic to just be about its dumb destined hero of heroic dumb destiny than it is to set itself up like it's going to be about a guy working really hard to defy destiny and THEN be like naw ya'llz homes be destined like a motherfucker.

if you really want a shonen series that screws conventions go with Kenichi. Whose main character is repeatedly told, "you have absolutely no talent" and unlike Naruto, it to be true

[greed]

To be fair by Japanese culture not doing this would be degridation not progression. In Japan a good wife and mother supports her husband and child. If she wasn't that then to them she would be a bad mother. If rolls were reversed Minato would be seen as a poor father for not being the head of the house and setting a poor example of responsibilities of a man.

Now I do agree with what you are saying. I am just pointing out, expecting anything else from a Japanese shonen series is expecting too much


Well Kekkaishi did it. But it's pretty goddamn atypical for shonen.

[Sithdarth]

if you really want a shonen series that screws conventions go with Kenichi. Whose main character is repeatedly told, "you have absolutely no talent" and unlike Naruto, it to be true

That is somewhat debatable while he wasn't particularly physically talented, until his training nearly killing him everyday toughened him up, he was always talented at absorbing and perfecting what he was taught. At least in the Anime I'm going to have to take a look at the manga. I'm just saying that even if someone works hard they still aren't going to be able to master several different and somewhat conflicting martial arts at the same time. Kenichi's talent was his lack of talent in all martial arts allowing him to progress equally in all the styles he was learning at the same time and preventing habits learned from one style from interfering with the techniques of another style.

But has been stated Japanese Archetypes accounted for what little we see of Naruto's Mom was pretty badass. She was essentially dead when Minato did the sealing and she managed to stick around longer and hold down the Ninetails as nothing but I assume chakra (what else would a spirit be made of?) and there couldn't have been much left in here at the time of the sealing.

[Bard The 5th LW]

But that still doesn't change the fact that Naruto worked his ass off to get to the level he is at now.

When you say 'worked his ass off' you mean 'genetically inherited or asked a demon for power' right?

Because seriously, the hard work idea was put on the shelf during the first fight with Neji.

[Fusionman]

When you say 'worked his ass off' you mean 'genetically inherited or asked a demon for power' right?

Because seriously, the hard work idea was put on the shelf during the first fight with Neji.

So it was put on the shelf during the best fight in Naruto history?

[Lithp]

Compared to Orochimaru vs. the Third Hokage, all of the fights in the Sasuke Retrieval Arc, & the Pain battles, I barely notice Naruto vs. Neji.

So what you're saying is it's turning into Bleach.

Point to me where Ichigo has been called a destined hero even once.

Just pointing out that when she was saved, she was kidnapped when she was like 6 years old by a bunch of Jounin ninjas who probably organized the kidnapping so as to do it in a way that wouldn't allow Kushina to fight back in any way whatsoever (especially considering she was a jinchuriki and if they fucked up they would be screwed).

I'm going to assume that they had all kinds of provisions in place that were conveniently not shown, just because:

Minato is in her age group, as well as not a Jinchuuriki, & therefore the whole damn point is invalid.

And when she's mothering Naruto and being useless, it's because she just had a freaken kid and had the nine-tails fox ripped out of her, which she survived. (something that no other character has been able to do).

It's called giving us glimpses onto other parts of her life. As I already said, being a flashback character doesn't excuse her.

Actually, that fact alone just shows how strong Kushina really is. She survived having the Nine-tails ripped from her body, and still had enough strength to help seal half of the nine-tails chakra into Naruto.

That only proves the fact that she's 1 giant Deus Ex Machina. Hell, it's not even her, it's her "special chakras."

[Arcanum]

Point to me where Ichigo has been called a destined hero even once.


http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j122/arcanum_DF/Untitled.png

Stuff

Just so you are aware, when I wrote that I was pretty tired so most of it is probably rambling, and I feel it would be unfair to continue the train of thought unless I am in the same state of mind that I was in when I wrote it :).

[Lithp]

Okie dokie. But "I planned all of this shit" is not the same as destiny. Naruto is literally foretold by a prophecy to be some kind of great hero.

[Premmy]

Okie dokie. But "I planned all of this shit" is not the same as destiny. Naruto is literally foretold by a prophecy to be some kind of great hero.

Destiny is just replacing
"I planned this shit"
with
"God/precursors/ancient aliens/the spirits/I, but I'm also god so "eh" planned this shit"

[Lithp]

Destiny is when something is foretold by fate, it is not the same thing as being manipulated by someone else.

The fact is that Naruto pulled the destiny card. Bleach has yet to do so.

[Premmy]

Destiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny)
Destiny may be envisaged as fore-ordained by the Divine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny#Different_concepts_of_destiny_and_fate)
=
"God/precursors/ancient aliens/the spirits/I, but I'm also god so "eh" planned this shit"

[krogothwolf]

Yeah, Destiny is just Naruto going the easy way out instead of trying to explain everything like Bleach tried to do with how it was all "planned"

[Kyanbu The Legend]

That only proves the fact that she's 1 giant Deus Ex Machina. Hell, it's not even her, it's her "special chakras."

???
So If she appeared at the start of the story, it wouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina because then we would have known about her all along?

Oh wait, nearly 60% of the fan base knew Minato /4th Hokage was Naruto's Dad during the training ark leading up to "Sasuke Retrieval Arc". 100+ chapters BEFORE it was revealed. So his mom being as powerful as she was made perfect sense. Hell if she couldn't survive that and was piss poor weak then she'd be one big let down that makes Naruto being strong as all holy hell complete bull shit (more so then normal).

[Lithp]

Yeah, Destiny is just Naruto going the easy way out instead of trying to explain everything like Bleach tried to do with how it was all "planned"

I sense sarcasm. Trouble is, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying, "Bleach's plot device is better," I'm saying, "They aren't the same thing." As I recall, there was nothing in Aizen's big fancy speech that stated that Ichigo's actions were controlled by the Hougyokou.

So, by the quick litmus test of "Naruto has a prophecy & Bleach doesn't," we can conclude that Bleach doesn't address destiny, but Naruto does. Now, if the issue is still in question, we could get into branching timelines, fate vs. free will, the nature of God, & all of the shit that tends to go along with the question of foreknowledge, but last I checked, that wasn't appreciated here.

So If she appeared at the start of the story, it wouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina because then we would have known about her all along?

Let me answer your question with another question: Is Chakra a Deus Ex Machina?

Oh wait, nearly 60% of the fan base knew Minato /4th Hokage was Naruto's Dad during the training ark leading up to "Sasuke Retrieval Arc".

Thought=/=knew. There were also a number of fans speculating that Pain was his father.

So his mom being as powerful as she was made perfect sense.

Fans speculating about Naruto's dad somehow proved something about his mom?

Hell if she couldn't survive that and was piss poor weak then she'd be one big let down that makes Naruto being strong as all holy hell complete bull shit (more so then normal).

You're assuming several things:

1. She either has to be what we ended up with or piss poor weak.
2. Naruto couldn't have inherited his abilities from just his father or, in fact, neither of them. Hell, the fact that he inherited anything at all is suspect, since Chakra works a lot like muscles: Some of it is genetically determined, but the vast majority is based on how you train it.

Additionally, I fail to see how we should have expected her to survive the Kyubi's removal. She's the only character to survive a Tailed Beast being ripped out of her on natural abilities alone. Apparently, no one, not even Madara, even speculated that this was possible before.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

My point is that you can't really call something out as Dues ex Machina if it's JUST appeared in the comic. As even if it wasn't explained earlier it can be explained later in the story. We might find out a lot about the Uzumaki clan in later chapters. Hel there might even be an entire flash back arc centered around Naruto's powerful ass mom.

[krogothwolf]

There was no sarcasm.

Naruto's Destiny is a prophecy some old fart made before the story.

Bleach's plan is some old soul started way back when well before Ichigo was even born.

There really is no difference.

[Lithp]

Yes, there is. Aizen is not "an inherent order to the cosmos," as Wiki puts it, that controls Ichigo's actions. No matter how accurate his plots turn out, he is not an agent of destiny.

My point is that you can't really call something out as Dues ex Machina if it's JUST appeared in the comic.

Sure I can. Her powers appeared out of nowhere to save Naruto problems.

We might find out a lot about the Uzumaki clan in later chapters. Hel there might even be an entire flash back arc centered around Naruto's powerful ass mom.

Don't threaten me.

Alright, I see what you're saying, but even if she gets fleshed out later, & even if she turns out to be the best damn character in the series, he can't go back & erase the fact that he pulled all of this "special chakra" stuff completely out of nowhere.

My point?

I'm not really sure.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

For all we know it may have been planned but executed poorly.

[Arcanum]

Yes, there is. Aizen is not "an inherent order to the cosmos," as Wiki puts it, that controls Ichigo's actions. No matter how accurate his plots turn out, he is not an agent of destiny.

It is a concept based on the belief that there is a fixed natural order to the cosmos.

1.something that is to happen or has happened to a particular person or thing; lot or fortune.
2.the predetermined, usually inevitable or irresistible, course of events.

The fact that Aizen planned this all out before Ichigo was born, and then introduced the Hougyoku into Ichigo's life for the express purpose of having everything go as planned is essentially the same as it being destiny since the events in Ichigo's life were predetermined by Aizen's plan, and forced to come to fruition thanks to the Hougyoku. That Aizen isn't "an agent of destiny" is irrelevant.

But I'm gonna stop arguing semantics before this goes on forever... again.

[Lithp]

Too late. I'm officially making this point. If you are ordered by a king to do something, it's not destiny. If you are a general & you use tactics to steer an enemy to a disadvantageous location, it's not destiny. If you're hungry & there's nothing to eat but chips & dip, it's not destiny.

There are all kinds of scenarios when you will be coerced to a certain outcome. Destiny is one of these. They are not all destiny.

The only way it's at all a form of destiny is if the Hougyokou directly controls his actions.

This isn't even just semantics, either. Fatalism is a very specific philosophical concept.

[Fusionman]

Too late. I'm officially making this point. If you are ordered by a king to do something, it's not destiny. If you are a general & you use tactics to steer an enemy to a disadvantageous location, it's not destiny. If you're hungry & there's nothing to eat but chips & dip, it's not destiny.

There are all kinds of scenarios when you will be coerced to a certain outcome. Destiny is one of these. They are not all destiny.

The only way it's at all a form of destiny is if the Hougyokou directly controls his actions.

This isn't even just semantics, either. Fatalism is a very specific philosophical concept.

PHILOSOPHY!!! No really we're arguing philosophy in a thread about a Shonen!!!

[Arcanum]

Too late.

No no no, you don't get it. I said I'm done. You can keep going all you want, feel free. But yeah, I'm done.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Lithp, you usually never concede about being wrong about anything when it comes to shonen. Even when your wrong. Arguing with you is like try to get a wall to talk by punching it. Completely useless, utterly useless.

You were proven to be at the least partially wrong about Ichigo not being destined to help Aizen (the big bad). It's time to just let it go.

[Lithp]

Lithp, you usually never concede about being wrong about anything when it comes to shonen.

No, see, this is why I'm doing this. I'm officially sick of this shit. You seem to want to be right so badly, but can't actually handle the process of proving a point. The second I take the gloves off & start taking anyone seriously, someone cuts in with this shit, & I'm expected to just shut up to appease them.

Well, I'm not backing off this time just because someone cried foul. You're wrong. You handle it. It's not fucking destiny. You didn't "prove" anything. There is a very specific definition for what constitutes a destined scenario. It is not a predicted scenario, it's a preordained one. As in something that cannot occur any other way because it was made so by the fundamental order of the universe. The Hougyokou doesn't do that. If it did, Ichigo wouldn't be able to put up any resistance against Aizen.

[Arcanum]

Too late. I'm officially making this point. If you are ordered by a king to do something, it's not destiny. If you are a general & you use tactics to steer an enemy to a disadvantageous location, it's not destiny. If you're hungry & there's nothing to eat but chips & dip, it's not destiny.

Ok screw it. I know I said I was done but now I actually read your comment and I have one final thing to say (and I swear that I'm not coming back to this thread until the next chapter is out...which will be kinda soon but still).

The worst part about arguing Destiny is that anything can be considered destined to happen. Ordered by a king to do something? It was your destiny to receive those orders. General using tactics blahblahblah? It was your destiny to steer the enemy to that location. Nothing but chips left? You were destined to eat those chips.

You saying that that it is not destiny means you don't believe it is destiny, whereas someone else will believe that it is destiny. And that's when it all boils down to beliefs, which is an argument with no end since nobody likes going back on their beliefs.


And yes I'm aware that what I just said could be used against the very same arguments I made earlier. I don't care.

And with that, I'm done. For reals this time.

[Premmy]

See, now, I was just arguing that it was the same narrative device, one that robs the main characters of their agency by presenting the idea that everything that happens is due to outside influence and whatnot.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

No, see, this is why I'm doing this. I'm officially sick of this shit. You seem to want to be right so badly, but can't actually handle the process of proving a point. The second I take the gloves off & start taking anyone seriously, someone cuts in with this shit, & I'm expected to just shut up to appease them.

Well, I'm not backing off this time just because someone cried foul. You're wrong. You handle it. It's not fucking destiny. You didn't "prove" anything. There is a very specific definition for what constitutes a destined scenario. It is not a predicted scenario, it's a preordained one. As in something that cannot occur any other way because it was made so by the fundamental order of the universe. The Hougyokou doesn't do that. If it did, Ichigo wouldn't be able to put up any resistance against Aizen.

Most of us concede when we're wrong. Even I admit that I'm wrong most of the time. Everyone is, the point is that you're trying to WIN an argument. Besides as Arcanum posted, Destiny falls under belief which is a never ending argument.

So let's keep it dead. In fact let's try to avoid an argument on here since with you and possibly a few others, it goes on forever.

[Lithp]

The worst part about arguing Destiny is that anything can be considered destined to happen.

Well, duh. The chief definition of destiny is that an outside agent makes the choice for you. That's exactly fucking why I've been pointing out that the Hougyokou doesn't do that.

Everyone is, the point is that you're trying to WIN an argument.

No, I'm not. I'm just fucking sick of everyone saying this when I disagree with them. It's a dishonest tactic meant to explain why I'm supposed to back down & they aren't. It's not a simple disagreement, oh no. It's "I'm right, so I get to say what I want, but you have to stop talking because you're obviously just not conceding when you're wrong."

You know what I honestly have to say to that?

Fuck you, that's what. If you want to play the moral high ground, then you back down. I'm sick of appeasing everyone.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

No you didn't "post" that you instead started beating around the bush instead of out right posting it. Something you NEVER do in an argument.

[Lithp]

No you didn't "post" that you instead started beating around the bush instead of out right posting it. Something you NEVER do in an argument.

YES! Because every time I call someone out directly, they accuse me of being a dick!

Edit: You know what? Just because I want to shut this shit down for good, even though I don't have to prove myself innocent of this accusation, here's me standing corrected on something:

http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1069980&postcount=47

[Kyanbu The Legend]

It's the internet, no one I mean NO ONE, is safe from that. It's something you have to deal with when posting on the internet.

Besides everyone's a dick to some extent anyway.

[Lithp]

Bull fucking shit, okay. Where have you seen me accuse someone of having an ulterior motive for disagreeing with me? In spite of putting up with that exact same thing for the longest time, I didn't actually do it for the first time until a page ago.

You know what, though, this is my fault. By backing off all of those times someone started bitching about it, I encouraged people to think that was an acceptable method of making a point. Because for some reason, I was stupid enough to assume that this wouldn't become a thing.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I wouldn't really know. But let's keep that out of here as well. Because this thread doesn't need anymore fires.

[krogothwolf]

Uh Lithp, Destiny isn't controlling Naruto's actions. Destiny is just calling him the chosen hero. He could pick up and run away, he could become the hero in a way that doesn't involve him fighting. All it's calling him is the Chosen One. No one knows what that means.

A good example is Anakin Skywalker as the Chosen One to bring Balance to the force. His Destiny was that. How he went about that was destroy the old Jedi order. That wasn't how everyone viewed it happening. They thought Balance was destroying the Sith but the Balance was destroying the Jedi.

Destiny doesn't fully control your actions it only merely says that you have a path to follow. What that path is up to you. His "hero" action could actually be the destruction of the Ninja nation, not uniting it. You don't know what it'll be just what the outcome is, that he is a Chosen Hero to do something. How that happens ends up to the person that has that destiny.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

This... this isn't going to stay dead is it.

Can we please get back to the topic now. The chapter should be up by morning since Bleach is up now.

[Lithp]

I wouldn't really know. But let's keep that out of here as well. Because this thread doesn't need anymore fires.

If you want to play the moral high ground, you back off.

And nowhere did I say that all actions have to be controlled, just that there has to be some sort of predestination.

[krogothwolf]

No, but you did say predestined means it can't occur any other way because the universe says it has to go this way. That's not it, it can occur any way as long as the outcome is what the universe is driving it to. But if you take out the universe, which doesn't actually need to be involved to be a destiny, just a higher power.

The H?gyoku is a higher power the through it's will did preordain the path that Ichigo and others would follow.

[Arcanum]

This... this isn't going to stay dead is it.

Can we please get back to the topic now. The chapter should be up by morning since Bleach is up now.

Not when everyone keeps trying to get the last word in, no I don't think it is. That's why I tried walking away, although unfortunately I am bored and the chapter still isn't out and I have nothing else to do so here I am again!

In an attempt to get this back on topic:

Prediction time!!! Who thinks Kisame is going to get straight up murdered now?

-----

Edit--- If you guys are going to keep arguing about Bleach stuff can you take it to the Bleach thread? I mean it's bad enough that we (myself included) derailed the thread this much already.

[Lithp]

Edit: You know what? Arcanum has a fair point. If anyone wants to continue this discussion--God, I hope not--send me a private message.

All I know about Kisame is that this backstory doesn't really seem to jive with his cool & unaffected demeanor up until this point.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Oh he's dead, if not he will be by the end of this up coming chapter. No way in hell can he stand up to Naruto if he had survived Guy's all mighty beatdown.

[krogothwolf]

The events around the specific individual materialized around the will of the H?gyoku. They had no actual control over those things because it was the stupid things will. Honestly, I won't be surprised if Kubo makes it that this thing was God that was doing everything for some weird reason.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

That's real cool in all but this is Naruto not Bleach. Please let it die already. It wants to die.

Anyway.

Wonder if Guy's has another beating for Kisame should he get up.

[Arcanum]

Oh he's dead, if not he will be by the end of this up coming chapter. No way in hell can he stand up to Naruto if he had survived Guy's all mighty beatdown.

I just envisioned everyone there holding down Kisame so he couldn't get away while Naruto went crazy Nine-tails--Six-paths--Sage-mode and beat the crap out of him. You know, since he sprained his ankle and all and apparently can't chase him down even though I'm pretty sure Naruto could have caught up to Kisame and then proceeded to beat him while hopping around on one foot (though I'm not complaining since we did get to see Gai fight)

[krogothwolf]

I hope Gai beats the crap out of him some more.

[Lithp]

I tend to think that Gai's only remaining function is to open all 8 Gates.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

He always seemed to be a comedy relief version of the ace to me. his fights are just funny to watch.

[Fusionman]

Epic beatings are all I need. Please Kishi remind me of better days!

[Aerozord]

He always seemed to be a comedy relief version of the ace to me. his fights are just funny to watch.

you know it wasn't until you just said that, that it hit me. He not only punched a shark, not just flying shark, not just a swarm of flying sharks, but he did it with fists of fire. Thats Dr McNinja level of awesome

[greed]

Holy shit Kisame went out like a badass.

And Konan vs Madara. Man I'm so sure this is going to disappointing but the last few months give me this vague hope it won't be.

[Arcanum]

Well... we all expected Kisame to die this chapter... but for him to kill himself was pretty crazy.

Also I found http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j122/arcanum_DF/Untitled2.png to be hilarious. It's probably because of the ellipsis.

And yeah, paper girl versus seemingly immortal man who can phase in and out of space-time (and possibly do other shit too) doesn't sound like it would be a good fight. I'm hoping I'll be proven wrong though.

[Aerozord]

Also I found http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j122/arcanum_DF/Untitled2.png to be hilarious.

more so if you read it left to right

[IHateMakingNames]

My guess is Konan will have something to counter-act the phasing thing, because she worked with him and planned for it. But then Madara just pulls out another power and look even stronger, which is what I assume is the purpose of this fight.

And I actually laughed when I read that panel.

[Aerozord]

you know thinking about it though, hilarious as it was. That whole scene was so incredibly stupid. I mean they pulled this exact trick in the chunin exams, this is a literal rookie mistake in their village

[Arcanum]

What makes it even worse is that Yamato is an ANBU ninja.

[Fusionman]

This is going to be FUN. I haven't seen a real curb stomp battle in ever!

[Lithp]

you know thinking about it though, hilarious as it was. That whole scene was so incredibly stupid. I mean they pulled this exact trick in the chunin exams, this is a literal rookie mistake in their village

I hadn't even realized that.

That might be officially more stupid than the glowing blue sweat that acts like a Tailed Beast's chakra cloak.

[Arcanum]

That might be officially more stupid than the glowing blue sweat that acts like a Tailed Beast's chakra cloak.

I was under the impression the glowing blue sweat didn't do anything. Like it was just a by-product of opening the 7th gate, and served no purpose other than to help Gai look badass. Meanwhile a Tailed Beast's chakra cloak thingy can be manipulated and can interact with its enironment.

[Grimpond]

This is going to be FUN. I haven't seen a real curb stomp battle in ever!

It simply signifies the gate's opening like arcanum said. I'm pretty sure even Gai pointed it out as cosmetic.

[Lithp]

I was under the impression the glowing blue sweat didn't do anything. Like it was just a by-product of opening the 7th gate, and served no purpose other than to help Gai look badass. Meanwhile a Tailed Beast's chakra cloak thingy can be manipulated and can interact with its enironment.

I had to sit there & think of why Kisame was going "holy shit!" when he thought it was chakra, when he saw it pushing back the water. And then the answer came to me: Visible aura that exerts actual force on its surroundings? The last place I've seen chakra do that was when Naruto fought Sasuke, after Naruto went 1 Tail.

Although, even if it didn't do anything, it's still pretty retarded.

[Fifthfiend]

Holy shit Kisame went out like a badass.

Kisame is so ballin' that nobody but him could be allowed to kill him.

[Arcanum]

I had to sit there & think of why Kisame was going "holy shit!" when he thought it was chakra, when he saw it pushing back the water. And then the answer came to me: Visible aura that exerts actual force on its surroundings? The last place I've seen chakra do that was when Naruto fought Sasuke, after Naruto went 1 Tail.

Although, even if it didn't do anything, it's still pretty retarded.

But it's not the glowing blue aura of sweat that was pushing the water back, it's the same heat that causes the sweat to evaporate in the first place (the heat emanating from Gai's body) that is evaporating the water around him. Kisame just thought it was the aura pushing it back because he thought it was Chakra.

[Lithp]

But it's not the glowing blue aura of sweat that was pushing the water back, it's the same heat that causes the sweat to evaporate in the first place (the heat emanating from Gai's body) that is evaporating the water around him. Kisame just thought it was the aura pushing it back because he thought it was Chakra.

I think what pisses me off most about this is that it makes sense.

[Grimpond]

Hmmm. Not bad. Definitely a clever use of exploding tags. Also, Madara's giving me a weird sense of deja vu with a bit of his face revealed.

[Donomni]

Konan's still alive after this chapter!... sorta.

Also, SEA OF PAPER.

Oh, and some crazy bullshit about the Rinnegan, Akatsuki, and Madara trying to act like Aizen.

[Lithp]

Madara trying to act like Aizen.

So he's doing what he's been doing from the very beginning?

Swallow the explosion that was supposed to destroy him when he swallowed it?

I'm reasonably certain that makes no sense whatsoever.

[Arcanum]

Instead of the the tags blowing up and killing them both (before or after they entered Madara's dimension, doesn't matter) Madara teleported the tags/explosion to his dimension which he immediately left, though he wasn't fast enough to leave before the explosion hit him, hence losing an arm.

[IHateMakingNames]

The explosion was to hit him when he was sucking in the paper girl, while he wasn't physically transparent. Instead he sucked in most of the explosion, so they were only hit by a little bit of explosion.

[Aerozord]

Just to clearify, everyone does know explosions dont work like that right?

[krogothwolf]

These are magical chakra explosions! they can do anything!

[Lithp]

Instead of the the tags blowing up and killing them both (before or after they entered Madara's dimension, doesn't matter) Madara teleported the tags/explosion to his dimension which he immediately left, though he wasn't fast enough to leave before the explosion hit him, hence losing an arm.

Now if only he'd actually said something like that.

[Grimpond]

Just to clearify, everyone does know explosions dont work like that right?

My knowledge of the inner workings of, uh, thermodynamics(?) is poor. Enlighten Me?

[Lithp]

My knowledge of the inner workings of, uh, thermodynamics(?) is poor. Enlighten Me?

I THINK he's referring to the fact that explosions damage things in 2 main ways:

1. Concussive force.
2. Burns.

Neither of which really explains Madara's disarming. If it had enough heat to melt his arm clean off, being that close to it would have covered his body with burns & killed him. If the force just blew his arm off, then it would have crushed his organs &, you guessed it, killed him.

[Aerozord]

My knowledge of the inner workings of, uh, thermodynamics(?) is poor. Enlighten Me?

a few things, most glaring is while using physics warping powers you could suck in all that energy. But that shouldn't help because the focal point is his eye. Its coming from all directions, so that energy would have to go through him to get to it. Maybe the act of absorbing it negates the damage, but then the parts of him that are furthest away would be damaged (his legs) no his arm and especially not his right arm.

Could be that what was closest to the absorption point was what would be the most damaged since, as I said it would have to pass through, then he'd be missing his face or something.

Atleast when Kakashi did it you could hand wave it since the focal point of the absorption isnt point blank from him, nor was the explosion coming in at all sides

[Lithp]

Depends on how much of the area around him actually turns into black hole.

What doesn't make sense to me is how he countered it by doing exactly what Konan wanted him to do.

[Aerozord]

Depends on how much of the area around him actually turns into black hole.


thought about that, but like I said then it would be parts of him that are furthest from the center of his eye, not the entirety of the closest limb and nothing else.

I can say with relative certainty he gave zero thought to it and just went "battle damaged"

[Lithp]

Well, yeah. But you could certainly come up with some bullshit about how it twists space.

Or maybe I just like the mental image of Madara's arm floating independently of the rest of him & then getting blown off because of it.

[Arcanum]

So Madara's bullshit Moon-Eye plan finally makes an inkling of sense now, since once he combines all Six Paths within himself and gains the power of the Sage of Six Paths he'll be able to turn the illusion that he casts on the world into reality, basically allowing him to create whatever he wants wherever he wants, instead of having the limitation of the Sage of Six Paths who could only create whatever he wanted nearby. So Madara plans to turn himself into a god, and will be able to look up at the moon (or however he activates it) and turn an entire country into a giant marshmallow if it so pleases him (or whatever the fuck he plans to do once he gains complete control over everything).

Also, Nagato is an Uzumaki?? Whhaaa?

[Donomni]

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs23/f/2007/349/1/a/IMAGINATION_by_RDCarneiro.jpg

This just about covers my thoughts about Madara this chapter.

But Nagato as an Uzumaki? UGH.

Naruto's gonna get the Rinnegan near the end of the manga, isn't he?

[Aerozord]

ok now for a moment I was thinking on yay, someone has a plan. Someone knows his limitations, finally his cheap power can be overcome. Then of course I remember this is a shonen series and she isn't the star so she fails.

Also, 600 billion? seriously? Even taking one second to make one it would take thousands of years to make that many.

[krogothwolf]

Almost 20,000 years if it takes one second. Fuck she be old!

[Fifthfiend]

Just because ya'll are some lazy motherfuckers doesn't give you the right to denigrate a high-producing Ninja-American who was willing to pull her six hundred billion exploding notecards up by the BOOTSTRAPS.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs23/f/2007/349/1/a/IMAGINATION_by_RDCarneiro.jpg

This just about covers my thoughts about Madara this chapter.

But Nagato as an Uzumaki? UGH.

Naruto's gonna get the Rinnegan near the end of the manga, isn't he?

Well he is suppose to be the jesus of this comic so...

Wait Madara stole it so maybe he won't get it. I mean good god does he realy need another power up? He's already godly as he is now with both the Sage and nine tails chakra.

[Funka Genocide]

Naruto will win by convincing everyone to stop being ninjas.

That's my guess, like he just convinces everyone to use their incredibly mystical powers to make really awesome furniture and ramen noodles.

[IHateMakingNames]

Clearly she made some shadow clone sweatshops to make all those tags.

And I figured this fight was to show off another Madara power.

But what does he need Nagato's eyes for? Didn't he just explain that he already has the thing the super ninja used to have?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Clearly she made some shadow clone sweatshops to make all those tags.

And I figured this fight was to show off another Madara power.

But what does he need Nagato's eyes for? Didn't he just explain that he already has the thing the super ninja used to have?

He probably took it for the hell of it. Or he's simply covering all his bases for when he attempts to mind rape the ten tails beast.

[Aerozord]

Clearly she made some shadow clone sweatshops to make all those tags.


Even with 100 clones that still wouldn't work

[Donomni]

Madara said something at the end about the third of the six paths, one being the Sharingan, another being the first Hokage's Supah Plant Grow bloodline, and the Rinnegan is the third, I guess.

Fuck if I can guess the other three, though.

[Arcanum]

But what does he need Nagato's eyes for? Didn't he just explain that he already has the thing the super ninja used to have?

I think he's getting them either for kicks, or he's gonna give them to Kabuto so he can fully utilize his resurrected Nagato. The way I see it, the Whateveryoucallit Resurrection technique gives an existing corpse all the powers/abilities/etc of another dead person. However, since Nagato didn't naturally have the Rinnegan (since Madara allegedly gave it to him) Kabuto's Resurrection of Nagato won't have the Rinnegan either, unless Madara gives Kabuto the eyes to give to his corpse.

[Aerozord]

Madara said something at the end about the third of the six paths, one being the Sharingan, another being the first Hokage's Supah Plant Grow bloodline, and the Rinnegan is the third, I guess.

Fuck if I can guess the other three, though.

Byakugan maybe? early on they made a big deal about its, better perception then sharigan, thing

[Lithp]

Part of the original setting actually becoming important again? You speak madness!

[Donomni]

I always had a theory that, since the Byakugan was similar looking to the moon, and the moon contains the Jyuubi, the Byakugan has moon-powers, and also had Jyuubi containing-powers.

Would kinda explain Hinata not getting irradiated when Naruto went fucking ballistic against Pain after her confession.

Of course, it's more crazy-talk than anything, but meh.

[krogothwolf]

Well one is gotta be the tailed beasts.

[Sithdarth]

I'm pretty sure Madara sacrificed an eye in order to use that technique. Like the stupid guy with the stupid arm full of eyes was stupidly doing but like better. The problem being that Madara had to sacrifice the ability to see out of one of his eyes to do it and he did it better. Obviously the sage of the six paths could do it without blinding himself. Hence Madara wants the six paths so that he can do it to the world without going blind.

[Aerozord]

I'm pretty sure Madara sacrificed an eye in order to use that technique. Like the stupid guy with the stupid arm full of eyes was stupidly doing but like better. The problem being that Madara had to sacrifice the ability to see out of one of his eyes to do it and he did it better. Obviously the sage of the six paths could do it without blinding himself. Hence Madara wants the six paths so that he can do it to the world without going blind.

no, he can see out of both eyes. Take a look of his now, more broken mask. Two sharigan active eyes

[Lithp]

He means after Madara used the technique, at which point his eye turned black & got covered in shadows for no apparent reason, other than to symbolically communicate the whole "blindness" thing.

But who knows if it's permanent? Madara seems to have a thing for eye transplants, but on the other hand, I can see him being stupid enough not to keep a spare around. Madara fucking Uchiha don't need no backup plans. It's not like he'll end up losing an arm & an eye by walking into obvious traps, or anything.

[Sithdarth]

no, he can see out of both eyes. Take a look of his now, more broken mask. Two sharigan active eyes

Just because an eye is open doesn't mean you can see out of it after all. We know Mr "I have 30 eyes on my arm" wasn't doing it right, at least now we do, and that he wasn't using eyes the belonged to him. So we can't really expect that whole closing thing to happen when someone properly uses the technique. Of course Madara could have found a way to repeatedly use the same eye to do the technique (possibly with a large down time) because he has the eternal version. It would explain why he keeps it covered and only uses the one eye. The other one is blind/needs to recover between uses. Which would also explain why he uncovered it right before using the technique. Of course this is all speculation. Also, he seems ridiculously unfazed by his missing limb.

[Lithp]

Which raises the question of how the 4th Hokage "defeated" him, especially since losing to the 1st was apparently all part of his plan somehow.

[Arcanum]

Which raises the question of how the 4th Hokage "defeated" him, especially since losing to the 1st was apparently all part of his plan somehow.

He got sloppy from his years and years of hiding and not doing anything. So then he joined Akatsuki under the alias Tobi in order to rehabilitate himself with his skills so that he wouldn't get shamed again. (Please note this is based on random guesswork pulled out of my sleep-deprived ass)

[Lithp]

Well, I was also referring to the fact that he shrugs off having an arm blown off, & wasn't really showing any difficulty moving after having a Rasengan slammed into his back.

Actually, recalling that, the blood dribbled down from his arm. How does that make any sense? If you put a roughly fist-sized abrasion in the middle of my back, the blood isn't going down my arm. At least I assume that's what happened, given the lack of spinal damage.

[Donomni]

Most of this latest chapter was... filler. Yeah, filler.

Still, Jiraya in a frog suit. THERE ARE NO WORDS.