Pokemon Umbral Discussion 36: Questions Are Overrated [Archive]

Geminex

08-11-2010, 03:15 PM

Mind you, the entire "your standard thing" sets off mental alarms, but if your standards are more like guidelines rather than strict regulations, I'd be a bit more open to it.

They will be guidelines, but you'll (hopefully) be honor-bound to treat them at strict regulations. That's the entire point of the deal. I'm not giving up leadership for a chance to expound on my ideas of balance, which will then be treated as helpful suggestions but otherwise ignored. I want a guarantee that, even if I kept devoting as much time as I have to this RP, and read every post, considered every suggestion minutely, I would find nothing balance-wise to complain about.

Mind you, that'd be rather machiavellian and impossible to actually organize. So, once again, the idea is this:

I post a few rules regarding what's overpowered and what isn't. Not sure how I'll phrase it yet, but I'll probably use three main principles: How strongly it potentially changes Gameplay, How greatly it strengthens the character in quesition, compared to the rest (that is to say, how 'fair' it is), and finally, if it's an element that was already present in the games, how much the usage in the RP differs from usage in the games.

We'll discuss these rules before they're finalized, though obviously my willingness to compromise will be limited. Though of course, rules won't be set in stone. We can modify them if we need to.

Once everything's finalized, we all agree to abide by them, both passively (don't suggest overpowered shit) and actively (speak up against anyone else suggesting overpowered shit)

And finally, like I said. I won't have any way of binding you to these rules. You can interpret them in many different ways, twist my words howevermuch you like. But I'm hoping that even if you could get around the letter ("don't do this, don't do that)"you'll respect their spirit ("don't let people's desire to power up their characters screw this RP over").

You're a real ass, you know that? =P
Yes. Yes I do. And y'know what? Unless this deal goes through, this ass will remain firmly planted on the 'leader' chair. And, whelp, will you look at that, not only am I more than capable of tactically justifying a faceful of laser directed at Togekiss, I'd also be extremely enthusiastic about that sort of idea!

Seriously, if this falls flat because of you, I'll still be leader, and for a while I swear, I'd be chanelling motherfucking Charlotte all up in this bitch. ALL ABOARD THE FRUSTRATED MALICE EXPRESS! NEXT STOP: PAIN AND HUMILIATION!

Just tell me how he'll change emotionally. More cynical? More self-doubt? Tortured by his past? More of a chip on his shoulder? Less thereof? Wiser? More impulsive? Something along those lines, I don't need to know what happens. Though if you wanna/need to tell me, PM, I guess.

So? You're not Impact! If Rayleen decides that someone else is better suited than Impact for leadership, what's he gonna do, throw a tantrum?

No. He will go "Why are you choosing to limit our autonomy and reduce our effectiveness? I am the team's chosen leader! I have the support of Charlotte, Renny and Pierce!"
And y'know what? He totally would. Because, once again, unless this deal goes through, all our other deals remain active. Including the ones where Pierce and Renny prefer Impact as leader over anyone else.

So, will you have Impact put up with an idealist leader in exchange for balance?
The way you phrase it (in that the choice is either between Pierce being the leader or the status quo of Impact's leadership and an inbalanced RP)? Maybe.
The way it actually is (in that Charlotte is a perfectly viable option for leader, so the choice is between Pierce, the Status Quo, or that one character whose leadership is incidentally supported by myself and the fucking DM)? No. Fuck no.

Not to mention that there's other ways to bring back balance into this RP. Hesitate much longer and hey, perhaps I'll find a way. And then Impact remains leader and I'll have achieved my aims, and did I mention? This is a once-in-a-lifetime offer. You said it yourself, there's really not that much you can offer me. If I find another way (and hell, I can think of two off the top of my head), then this great opportunity to limit mine and Impact's Control over this RP? Gone. So your only chance would be a coup, and if you've reached that point you might as well resign yourselves.

And fair enough. Charlotte's smarter than she looks...
But hell, that just makes it more fun.
And she's still neutral ground, so to speak. More so than Pierce, Renny or Impact, anyway. Indifference to non-murderous things pretty much means neutrality.
Also, and I didn't want to say this, but whatever: One of the conditions for this deal was that Impact's leadership isn't plot-necessary. It isn't as such. But there will be things going on, sidequest- and sequel- related things, and considering that Pierce is already to some degree suspicious of Impact, I do not think that these things would be as sucessful as if, say, Charlotte were leader. And these things aren't even nefarious. Well, ok, they are, but they're for a good cause. Trust me, limit Impact's success this RP? You'll be kicking yourself in the sequel. Kicking yourself.

Dracorion

08-11-2010, 04:45 PM

Just tell me how he'll change emotionally. More cynical? More self-doubt? Tortured by his past? More of a chip on his shoulder? Less thereof? Wiser? More impulsive? Something along those lines, I don't need to know what happens. Though if you wanna/need to tell me, PM, I guess.

Wiser. I expect he'll be less cynical, toward teammates at least. Less of a chip on his shoulder, I guess? More self-doubt, but nothing crippling (I'm actually not sure about this one, we'll see how it goes). Pierce is always tortured by his past. He just doesn't usually let it get to him, y'know?

He'll also be a lot more stressed out. I mean, you try juggling dealing with your sister being kidnapped, an evil soul-eating mastermind manipulating you without your knowledge and pretending to actually be an ally, Elizabeth's wacky shenanigans, Aria's wacky shenanigans, herding a pack of kittens wielding nukes (y'know, if he gets the job), and asking a girl out.

But there won't be any outbursts. He just probably won't taunt enemies as much, maybe, and not enjoy fighting as much. That's not to say he'll turn into Grumpy McCrankyPants either.

And then there's the whole "channeling his inner ruthlessness without going completely overboard" balancing act. You can thank Enmakki for that, though hell, maybe you can have Impact give him some advice too, if he gets the job, y'know "in the interest of ensuring the competence of our new leader" or some crap like that. Mind you, he's still not going to kill anyone, but you don't see him glaring at a teammate when they make a kill right now, do you?.

I think that's it. But let's face it, chances are I've forgotten a couple, so I'll edit them into this post or do 'em in another post if you've already seen this post by the time I remember them.

The way you phrase it (in that the choice is either between Pierce being the leader or the status quo of Impact's leadership and an inbalanced RP)? Maybe.

Well I wasn't going to go and say the other option. Good God man, it's the principle of the thing! You don't help your enemies reach any kind of conclusion, even if they're already more than capable of figuring out for themselves in a matter of seconds anyway.

And shut up. I know you're going to say something like "trust me, you don't want me to be your enemy".

The way it actually is (in that Charlotte is a perfectly viable option for leader, so the choice is between Pierce, the Status Quo, or that one character whose leadership is incidentally supported by myself and the fucking DM)? No. Fuck no.

I'm fairly certain AB is at least half-joking about making Charlotte leader. It's not that he wouldn't do it. It's more like when I talk about killing Renny, or torturing Matthias.

Not to mention that there's other ways to bring back balance into this RP. Hesitate much longer and hey, perhaps I'll find a way. And then Impact remains leader and I'll have achieved my aims, and did I mention? This is a once-in-a-lifetime offer. You said it yourself, there's really not that much you can offer me. If I find another way (and hell, I can think of two off the top of my head), then this great opportunity to limit mine and Impact's Control over this RP? Gone. So your only chance would be a coup, and if you've reached that point you might as well resign yourselves.

Hey, some of us are totally into chaos.

Also, and I didn't want to say this, but whatever: One of the conditions for this deal was that Impact's leadership isn't plot-necessary. It isn't as such. But there will be things going on, sidequest- and sequel- related things, and considering that Pierce is already to some degree suspicious of Impact, I do not think that these things would be as sucessful as if, say, Charlotte were leader. And these things aren't even nefarious. Well, ok, they are, but they're for a good cause. Trust me, limit Impact's success this RP? You'll be kicking yourself in the sequel. Kicking yourself.

Oh come on. You can't possibly expect us to take this seriously.

Whether or not you're right is something that will be seen when the time comes. You're not giving us a warning, because that means you'd have to actually give us something concrete. It's more like a cryptic jerk-ass hint.

And the proceedure for cryptic hints is keep on going as you normally would. Except you'll be keeping your eyes open for signs, of course, but not actively looking for them.

Menarker

08-11-2010, 07:23 PM

Well, I just arrived safely, no thanks to Drac trying to jinx me. (Almost got stranded in a totally different location! Only sheer utter luck saved me!)

Looks like since AB oked the idea, my plan to eject Togekiss and focus the laser on Mio thus maximizing damage on bosses and minions alike is the best option.

Dracorion

08-11-2010, 07:29 PM

...

You do realize AB said Devil's Drift would work on Miyo too, right?

We could laser her AND knock her the fuck out of the field, and we'd find out what happens to the Betas when they don't get their lullaby.

Menarker

08-11-2010, 08:15 PM

Why laser her and then knock her out of the field? We wouldn't be able to capitalize on the high damage that she would get until she came back.

>_> Plus, you're still trying to knock out Togekiss with the damn laser...

Dracorion

08-11-2010, 08:19 PM

Why yes, yes I am.

We wouldn't need to capitalize on the damage yet. It's not like she's going to heal herself while she's pulling herself out of the dilapidated remains of the building Lexhur knocked her into that she brought down.

And it's not like the enemies can heal her while she's ejected, either.

Menarker

08-11-2010, 08:31 PM

Geez, at least if AB chose Impact or Pierce or someone else to dominate, at least there might be discussions or people actively trying to protest harming a team-mate... but NOO, he had to choose someone whom everyone else seems to want to knock out despite it being practically a saint with Serene Blessing and all. How twisted.

How about we try to decide how everyone else is going to attack what moves they have, since we're volleying back and forth here?

We did seem to accept Wilhelmina finishing off Toxicroak with Flying type bullet and Shannon and Moon doing Moonlight Disco on the 3 betas and on Moera...

BTW, pretty much off for the night since I got a big day tomorrow checking out the sights.

Astral Harmony

08-11-2010, 09:04 PM

You know me, Goshujin-sama. You know that I like to bend over backwards on occasion just to keep the players happy. Why else would you get Lola? Why else could Pierce lay Shizuka and still have the possibility of hooking up with Chizuru? Why else would Impact be able to conquer the world? Why else would I let Charlotte get away with shooting someone? Why else would I give Matthias the ability to hack mechanical foes?

Well, maybe I should've asked if he was okay with it before I made it Porygon Z's Synchronicity Technique? To me, it just made sense. I mean, Porygon is made out of data like a Digimon or something, right? What's the best way to use electronic data in an awesome way?

Matthias could have all kinds of fun with that even between missions. Like if Impact was using a computer or something, in goes eMatthias and when someone walks by, up comes a bunch of popups for gay porn sites with high volume.

If Matthias was like that at all, he'd out-douche Pierce and Charlotte.

Menarker

08-11-2010, 09:11 PM

Matt's Porygon's Sync Tech is A-OK in my book. Although, why stop there? He could replace all the assigned sound bits with some fake orgasm sound. Every time he double-click. Every time there is an pop-up or a prompt, everything he resets, load a file or anything like that, it'll cue that sound!

What I meant was that out of all the characters that could have been chosen for Domination, you chose the one that everyone WANTS to knock out, out of character wise. As if you disliked Togekiss for some reason too! Crazy, uh?

Anyhow, at best, I'll probably try to have Renny use both actions to try to convert Togekiss before Lexhur uses the laser and Devil's Drift on Mio... If it works, great. If not... well, the chances of the worst case happening is 25%... >_>

Dracorion

08-11-2010, 10:23 PM

Dante, Dante.

You must make Matthias that much of a douche-bag. There is simply no other option.

Although, on top of doing everything Menarker and AB said, you should also take Impact's voice, paste it over one or both of the males so that it sounds like he's the one saying "oh yeah ffuuuuuccckk meeeee" while getting assraped, and then play it all over the PATCA building's PA.

DanteFalcon

08-12-2010, 12:30 AM

So basically what your saying is.

Step A) Matthias becomes addicted to Rage Rockets.

Step B) Fuck with everyone's computers and their reputations.

Step C) Somehow not get brutally murdered

Step D) ?????

Step E) Profit!

Astral Harmony

08-12-2010, 12:37 AM

Hell, why stop there? You could probably hack bank accounts 'n' shit. Hack an online game, hack a max level character with the best weapons and armor right off the bat and then hack the game so you can kill anyone and laugh at their Livejournals.

Ye gods, what evil hath my heretical hands wrought?

Dracorion

08-12-2010, 05:32 PM

Something beautiful.

Anyway, plan:

Rachel: Spend 50 Rage and use four Rage Rockets on Lexhur.
Impact: Max Revive on Shaymin. Swarm Bow on Moera.
Renny: Deploy Swampert. Shaymin to use Air Slash on the Fog and Swampert to Mimic Air Slash.
Charlotte: Arceus to use Judgment on Asura Beta A. Sol-Leks to use Fire Blast on Asura Beta A.
Wilhelmina: Piercing Shot on Toxicroak Pokemerc.
Pierce: Max Revive on Tyranitar. Tyranitar to use Earthquake on Toxicroak and Asura Beta D (backlash on Shaymin). If Toxicroak is dead, Crunch on Moera. Palkia to use Spacial Rend on Miyo.
Matthias: Hyper Beam on Moera.
Moon: Lanturn to use Signal Beam on Moera. Split Rage with Shannon to use Moonbeam Disco on Moera and Asura Betas D, E and F.
Harliette: Wormadam to use Bug Bite on Moera. Illumise to use Bug Buzz on Moera. Aqua Shot on Moera.
Lexhur: Lexhur Laser centered on Millenium Battlebot. Devil's Drift on Miyo.
Trainer Attack: On Asura Beta A, or if it's dead, on Moera.

[Evolith/Device Space 1] [Matthias] [Sol-Leks] [Arceus] [Bastiodon] [Wormadam] [Harliette] [Illumise] [Swampert] [Shaymin] [Tyranitar] [Palkia] [Lanturn] [Kingdra] [Impact] [Evolith/Device Space 2]

Geminex

08-12-2010, 05:47 PM

Not gonna quote, just gonna write.
Drac:

New Pierce sounds... interesting, I guess. Should be fun. Though not as fun as Charlotte.

Cryptic jerk-ass hints are all you're getting. You don't have to react to them. But come on. Would I waste my breath on cryptic hints if there wasn't a significant chance that I'd get to say 'I told you so' in several years time? Has any of my frustratingly vague information ever not been right on the mark?

And I'm sorry. Since when did 'Impact being leader and controlling the team with an IRON FIST' ever count as 'chaos'? That is the exact opposite of chaos. It is anti-chaos. It is the exact opposite of anarchy. It is Control, motherfuckers. And the only chance you guys have to prevent it is graaaadually slipping away from you. And another cryptic hint? If you do so, you better buy a new pair of kicking-yourself boots, because OH MAN YOU COULD CERTAINLY USE AN EXTRA PAIR OF THOSE.

Because, see, you're arguing. You're refusing to listen. You're too caught-up in the heroism of your own character that you have to, HAVE TO take this chance to make him leader. You're not being... reasonable.
Let's talk about our literary preferences for a moment.
In the past, for me, mostly fantasy and sci-fi. I read those by the dozen.
But now time is short... I don't bulk-read anymore, I've become more of a conniseur... I read eagerly, but only books of great quality. The latest was a fascinating book called 'Special Topics in Calamity Physics'. A mystery, I guess, but in a really interesting context, and told from the point of view of a fascinating-incredibly-acute-but-slightly-insane young woman.
Right now? I'm reading "The Godfather". Just as fascinating, though in another way. I'm sure you know it. Don Corleone really interests me. In a PM to you I once mentioned something called 'tactical diplomacy', just something I came up with off the top of my head to describe what I was doing at the time. And Corleone? He's fucking mastered it. Seriously, on the 'magnificent bastard' scale, he comes just under Vetinari, and certainly above Artemis Fowl. Way above Impact, for now. Above me, even!
Above me as well, for that matter. He just has more... style, I guess. He's better in the long term. His personal philosophy is far more effective, as well. He really knows how to compromise. How to be reasonable. How to make sure that everyone gets a little, that everyone's happy, but that he's happiest. He rarely has to use force. Barely ever threatens!
The only time you really have to worry for yourself when you're negotiating with him is when he despairs. When he throws up his hands in frustration and walks away and calls you... unreasonable. Because that means that you've resisted his best attempts at persuading you to see things his way, it means that there's literally no way but force, through which he can get his way. It means he made you an offer you can't refuse, and you refused it anyway. Unreasonable.

But I'm not like him, sadly. I'm not as strict as him, not as competent. I propose a lot of ultimatums, every time one gets rejected, a new one pops up. I get more likely to employ force each time, but it's nothing final. Nothing so very consequent. It's a slippery slope. And though it's getting quite slippery now... And hey, I certainly aspire to be like him. In these negotiations, anyway. But until then... here we go again.

You owe me a favor. Moderate, I believe. Now, there's a variety of ways to interpret that. But I'm not even going to call it in right now, as such. Instead... I'll make an offer. Not necessarily one you can't refuse, but an offer. If this deal goes through, with Charlotte as leader, with unanimous agreement from everyone, that favor will be forgotten. That is fair?

And finally, I'm not your enemy! It would be unpleasant for both of us if I was. So consider, eh? Consider carefully. Slippery slope and all that. ^^

Menarker: I assume that your lack of reply is to be interpreted as agreement.

Dante:
...
Do me a favor. Go on youtube, look up 'g-mod idiot box hax'. That will give you my opinion on all of the unorthodox uses thereof. Especially those involving Impact.

Dracorion

08-12-2010, 06:09 PM

New Pierce sounds... interesting, I guess. Should be fun. Though not as fun as Charlotte.

Oh for the love of God.

Cryptic jerk-ass hints are all you're getting. You don't have to react to them. But come on. Would I waste my breath on cryptic hints if there wasn't a significant chance that I'd get to say 'I told you so' in several years time? Has any of my frustratingly vague information ever not been right on the mark?

Yeah, I'm not saying it won't be right. I'm saying we're not going to act on it. Or at least, we shouldn't.

And I'm sorry. Since when did 'Impact being leader and controlling the team with an IRON FIST' ever count as 'chaos'? That is the exact opposite of chaos. It is anti-chaos. It is the exact opposite of anarchy. It is Control, motherfuckers. And the only chance you guys have to prevent it is graaaadually slipping away from you. And another cryptic hint? If you do so, you better buy a new pair of kicking-yourself boots, because OH MAN YOU COULD CERTAINLY USE AN EXTRA PAIR OF THOSE.

I meant about us being forced to depose Impact via coup.

Because, see, you're arguing. You're refusing to listen. You're too caught-up in the heroism of your own character that you have to, HAVE TO take this chance to make him leader. You're not being... reasonable.

Hey man, I already said I agree to the overall deal.

For the most part, I'm just arguing with you on some comments you make for the sake of arguing.

The only parts I'm seriously arguing about are the ones directly related to Pierce being leader. Riddle me this: how would Charlotte be a better leader than Pierce? Not fun, better.

The Godfather stuff

Hey man, just because I'm generally unreasonable doesn't mean I'm always unreasonable, and it certainly doesn't mean you should assume I'm being unreasonable.

You owe me a favor. Moderate, I believe. Now, there's a variety of ways to interpret that. But I'm not even going to call it in right now, as such. Instead... I'll make an offer. Not necessarily one you can't refuse, but an offer. If this deal goes through, with Charlotte as leader, with unanimous agreement from everyone, that favor will be forgotten. That is fair?

If you can convince me why Charlotte would be a better leader than Pierce, sure.

And finally, I'm not your enemy! It would be unpleasant for both of us if I was. So consider, eh? Consider carefully. Slippery slope and all that. ^^

I said you'd say that.

Bard The 5th LW

08-12-2010, 06:15 PM

There would likely be less internal conflict with Charlotte as leader.

She would tell all y'all to shut the fuck up and just clear house. No room for inner conflict until after the mission, and it is not important by then.

And also just wanna say the Godfather was a pretty awesome book. I could never get into the sequel though.

Dracorion

08-12-2010, 06:17 PM

Oh come on! Pierce is more than capable of telling Impact that "you're wrong now shut the fuck up".

Bard The 5th LW

08-12-2010, 07:09 PM

Would he take it seriously if it came from Pierce?

Dracorion

08-12-2010, 07:10 PM

More seriously than if it came from Charlotte.

Bard The 5th LW

08-12-2010, 07:20 PM

Charlotte shot Moon in the first mission. She has also expressed a willingness to kill even children several times.

Keep in mind, she shot at Shannon because she didn't get taken seriously. Impact saw it.

And I'm sure if it came down to it, she could retaliate with something besides violence.

Dracorion

08-12-2010, 07:48 PM

The gun in question came from Impact in the first place.

But I'm pretty sure Impact is sneaky enough to steal the gun away from Charlotte, not to mention the shotgun, prior to a mission so she can't just shoot him.

And this is Impact. You can't possibly come up with a cunning enough plot for vengeance that he couldn't figure out.

Bard The 5th LW

08-12-2010, 07:52 PM

Since when did you respect Impact?

Dracorion

08-12-2010, 07:55 PM

Since it gets me to prove Pierce is a better leader than Charlotte.

Geminex

08-13-2010, 06:31 AM

Oh SNAP.
...
Wait a minute...

Also, dude. This isn't about better leader, worse leader. If this was about having the best leader, I never would have made this deal and Impact would keep his position. So hard. You wouldn't believe how hard he'd keep it.

I want Charlotte for a leader. It is part of the concession you have to make to me in return for concessions I will make to you. That is what is called a compromise. Of course, I've made arguments for why Charlotte would be a good leader, even tried to argue that she'd be better (and I think she is best suited, for the purposes of this deal, since, like I said, neutral ground). But I did so less because I have any duty to prove, but to persuade you to agree to this deal.

Saying that I do have a duty to provide sufficient proof that Charlotte would be a better leader than Pierce, and you'll refuse the deal otherwise...

Well, perhaps you're right in saying that you haven't been unreasonable so far. Probably, in fact. But refusing on those grounds? I'm not so sure about that. I have made you a fair offer. Modify it, if you will. I might be willing to make a few smaller compromises. Depends on what else you want. So make me an offer. But please, cease this unimaginative rejection of my every attempt at finally bringing this infernal business to an end.

Dracorion

08-13-2010, 10:39 AM

Also, dude. This isn't about better leader, worse leader. If this was about having the best leader, I never would have made this deal and Impact would keep his position. So hard. You wouldn't believe how hard he'd keep it.

I don't need to know about the state of Impact's penis, thanks.

Technically it should be about who can be the better leader if we shaft Impact out of the position.

I want Charlotte for a leader. It is part of the concession you have to make to me in return for concessions I will make to you. That is what is called a compromise. Of course, I've made arguments for why Charlotte would be a good leader, even tried to argue that she'd be better (and I think she is best suited, for the purposes of this deal, since, like I said, neutral ground). But I did so less because I have any duty to prove, but to persuade you to agree to this deal.

This deal doesn't encompass every possible thing that might happen in the future. Even if Charlotte is best suited "for the purposes of this deal" or whatever, there are likely to be several other occurrences in the future that she's not best suited for.

And I thought you said you would sweeten up the deal more if I told you how Pierce is going to change after his sidequest? You can talk about concessions all you want after you do that.

Saying that I do have a duty to provide sufficient proof that Charlotte would be a better leader than Pierce, and you'll refuse the deal otherwise...

I've already agreed to the overall deal, whether the leader is Charlotte or Pierce.

First I asked you to tell me why Charlotte was a better leader. Then you proposed your little mini-deal where you eliminate my moderate favor if I vote for Charlotte, to which I demanded that you prove Charlotte's suitability.

You could still not prove Charlotte's suitability and I'd still owe you a moderate favor, of course. Though you'd still have to come up with some other argument to convince me to vote for her.

Well, perhaps you're right in saying that you haven't been unreasonable so far. Probably, in fact. But refusing on those grounds? I'm not so sure about that. I have made you a fair offer. Modify it, if you will. I might be willing to make a few smaller compromises. Depends on what else you want. So make me an offer. But please, cease this unimaginative rejection of my every attempt at finally bringing this infernal business to an end.

Oh come on. We're almost done with it anyway, we're just ironing out one last annoying detail.

As for how to end it... well, you could just concede that Pierce should be leader.

But on to serious suggestions now... umm, you could declare an ultimatum. Though of course, that would probably push me to reject. This whole thing is already one big ultimatum anyway; you practically forced a choice that wasn't really a choice down our throats.

I'm not saying I'm going to reject, of course. I'm saying I don't like it, and I am allowed to so don't you dare do that thing where you get all pissy and write up a huge-assed threatening post. I am not rejecting the deal.

Anyway, another alternative: I'm asking, and only asking this time, that you prove to me that Charlotte is a better leader.

You could also make a brilliant, heavily detailed argument that perfectly outlines how I'm only doing this to put Pierce in a leadership position, rather than it being about who the best leader is in the absence of Impact like I've been telling myself. Then I'd have no choice but to concede.

Or you could just call the deal off forever. I'd be left kicking myself, not to mention everyobe else would be kicking me for depriving them of a sweet deal.

Man, I'm trying to be reasonable here. I have a certain opinion and I believe I'm right in that opinion. I'm asking you to prove me wrong if you can. We both have stances and we both believe we're right. That's the way discussions go, man.

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 01:51 AM

Well I have a Vriska Avatar so Nyeh!

I am superior to all of you.

Astral Harmony

08-14-2010, 07:00 AM

I plan to have the RP post finished Monday night. Tomorrow's my duty day and I'll more or less spend the day working on the sprite comic if I can get a good idea by then. Not sure what it'll be about, but I think it'll be an interview of the PCs.

I expect a beautifully witty flame war of how I misinterpreted your character's personalities almost immediately after I post it.

Menarker

08-14-2010, 09:18 AM

Menarker: I assume that your lack of reply is to be interpreted as agreement.

No, it should be interpreted as the fact that since I'm still on vacation, I might have been terribly busy.

I'll however more or less hold to the agreement. I wasn't in total disagreement as more on concerned on the "fine print" that one player (You) would be more or less deciding the standards of power of techniques.

Keep in mind however, since from what I'm grasping of this deal, it's freeing me from my obligation of supporting Impact as leader (and are you still obligated to the agreements you made to me, since you got leadership support during the duration of the agreement?)... and a good thing too since in-RP Renny will not be forgiving Impact for directing the laser in Togekiss's direction. That's going to send his trust rating into a tailspin.

Anyhow, hoping everyone is doing well. Be back in a few days.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 09:58 AM

Anyhow, hoping everyone is doing well. Be back in a few days.

Well, I was hoping you'd comment on the plan I posted.

But since you're not going to, I'm just going to go ahead and modify it a little bit so that Renny's pokemon all die, and then Renny tries to attack Toxicroak with his righteous fists of fury. Then Toxicroak's counter attack ability kicks in. And everyone lives happily ever after.

I'll get around to posting soon.

Oh, and something else: I propose that we rename Renny's Signature Technique "Valiant Rush" to "The Little Engine That Could".

All in favor say aye.

Menarker

08-14-2010, 10:56 AM

What is there to talk about? We keep going back and forth on the laser thing. On a tactical side, it seems "decent" since you apparently still want fog dispelling judging from the looks of Renny's pokemons actions. From an RP perspective, the orders might be given sequentially, so that everything looks good until that last order which is "WTF, YOU CAN'T DO THAT!" "I CAN AND I WILL!"

On a side note, your formation is incorrect if you want Tyranitar to use its Earthquake in such a way so it backlashes uselessly on Shaymin. Shaymin and Tyranitar are both on the opposite side of the formations!

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 11:02 AM

Well you could just admit I'm right.

Anyway, I forgot to change Tyranitar's and Shaymin's positions. Oh well, it's fixed now.

Actually, I was hoping you'd modify it to show who gets STAB and whatnot so I wouldn't have to do it.

Geminex

08-14-2010, 12:34 PM

Ok. Fuck this shit. I had a nice, big-ass post all written out, forum swallowed it, I'm pissed.

Buuut here we go again...

Bard:
Well I have a Vriska Avatar so Nyeh!

I am superior to all of you
3XCUUUUUS3 M3? (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004157)

Menarker: Renny shouldn't suffer any loss of confidence, cause Impact neither gave that order, or is likely to give that order. If the deal falls flat, I'll find more subtle ways to get venegance, and, as you've noticed, I haven't been very active in the RP thread. I certainly haven't made any post implying that Togekiss should get lasered.

Regardless of that, yes, you'd be released of your obligation to support Impact. Though I'd like to retain the relationships between our characters. That is to say, Pierce and Renny no longer have to vote Impact for leader. But going straight to massive misturst would annoy me. Not that you intend to, but I just wanted to... throw that out there.

Anyway, business.

Drac...
This isn't a discussion. If it were, I'd be debating vehemently. Making arguments. But it isn't. It's a negotiation. I'm not trying to change your mind, prove to you that I'm right. Hell, I don't even hold the view that Charlotte is more qualified than Pierce (though neither is Pierce more qualified than Charlotte)!
I can try to persuade you that you're wrong, of course. And I'm sort of doing that. But not out of belief that I'm right. Cause see, negotiation. We both have certain motivations and views. We are acting based on these. I'm not trying to persuade you that your motivations are fallacies. I'm trying to persuade you that it is in your interest to ignore some of your motivations (Pierce's leadership), while prioritizing others (Not Impact's leadership, The Favor, which, by the way, was the sweetener I talked about).

And I think that is certainly the case.
Mind you, that's not to imply that I don't think Charlotte would be as competent (and if not, then at least not much less competent than) Pierce. Certainly not less succesful. She'd have tacticians advising her. And I have a hunch that once she has power, Bard won't throw it away by acting murderous-impulsively. Unless it's for something really hilarious.

But that's just on the side. I think the ultimatum idea is pretty good. I am W34RY!
Three options:
You insist that Pierce be leader. Deal falls flat.
You give in. Deal works out.
You make me an offer, whereby you either make concessions in return for Pierce's leadership, or I make concessions in return for Charlotte's leadership. Preferrably both. Then I'll make you one, count it, one, counteroffer. Then you either accept or decline, and we're done.

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 12:45 PM

So apparently I was supposed to make an illustration of Drac.

http://i38.tinypic.com/33w7028.jpg

Not sure why it was requested.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 12:52 PM

Menarker: Renny shouldn't suffer any loss of confidence, cause Impact neither gave that order, or is likely to give that order. If the deal falls flat, I'll find more subtle ways to get venegance, and, as you've noticed, I haven't been very active in the RP thread. I certainly haven't made any post implying that Togekiss should get lasered.

Yes, you did:

Also, CENTER THE LASER ON TOGEKISS.
IT IS OUR ONLY HOPE.

And also:

Yes. Yes I do. And y'know what? Unless this deal goes through, this ass will remain firmly planted on the 'leader' chair. And, whelp, will you look at that, not only am I more than capable of tactically justifying a faceful of laser directed at Togekiss, I'd also be extremely enthusiastic about that sort of idea!

Drac...
This isn't a discussion. If it were, I'd be debating vehemently. Making arguments. But it isn't. It's a negotiation. I'm not trying to change your mind, prove to you that I'm right. Hell, I don't even hold the view that Charlotte is more qualified than Pierce (though neither is Pierce more qualified than Charlotte)!

Oh, come on. (about the bolded part)

Fair enough, this is a negotiation. See below to see what parts of the deal you have yet to hold up to and then I'll make my concessions.

I can try to persuade you that you're wrong, of course. And I'm sort of doing that. But not out of belief that I'm right. Cause see, negotiation. We both have certain motivations and views. We are acting based on these. I'm not trying to persuade you that your motivations are fallacies. I'm trying to persuade you that it is in your interest to ignore some of your motivations (Pierce's leadership), while prioritizing others (Not Impact's leadership, The Favor, which, by the way, was the sweetener I talked about).

Impact not being leader was not the sweetener. For fuck's sake, Impact stepping down is the main reason we're making this deal anyway! Not a sweetener. Let me outline that you've promised a couple of times to make the deal better:

Mind you, this is a suggestion. I'm not yet sure if the plot allows me to part with Impact's leadership, stuff is still very vague. And the deal would be refined.

And by "refining" I meant "make them better for you". Everyone, I guess. But Drac in particular. Trust me. This is the chance of a lifetime I talked about.
Just need oooone little PM to AB...

Mind you, I don't wanna do this unless it's unanimous. Neither do I want to wait until after Pierce's sidequest. So what to do...
If I've accurately summarized Menarker's position, and everyone agrees to the basic deal, there are two steps:
1: You outline roughly how Pierce is gonna change after his sidequest, without revealing what'll happen.
2: I sweeten the deal one time.
Then you accept or decline.

And no, you voting Charlotte for leader doesn't count as a sweetener either. We always would've had to choose a new leader. Charlotte being a candidate is just specifying.

Unless you're pulling this (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1063149&postcount=29) off. In which case you can't, because I totally called dibs on it right after Charlotte posted it.

Oh wait, heh, you already did:

Regardless of who you want for leader, lemme just clarify, you'd all agree to help this RP remain balanced (like I said, by my standards), continously, in return for Impact stepping down? No matter who steps up? This is primarily Menarker and Drac, but everyone, really, except for AB.

And now you're saying:

But that's just on the side. I think the ultimatum idea is pretty good. I am W34RY!
Three options:
You insist that Pierce be leader. Deal falls flat.

So first you said it didn't matter who we picked as leader as long as we agreed to keep balance. Now you're saying if I don't pick Charlotte as leader the deal goes to hell.

You give in. Deal works out.

You haven't quite pushed me there yet. I'm weary too. The question is, can you wear me out before I wear you out? Because I'm not going to be losing any sleep if this deal doesn't go through.

Anyway, yeah, if you can somehow keep pushing me I just might cave.

You make me an offer, whereby you either make concessions in return for Pierce's leadership, or I make concessions in return for Charlotte's leadership. Preferrably both. Then I'll make you one, count it, one, counteroffer. Then you either accept or decline, and we're done.

Fair enough. I'm going to propose something, but before we go through with anything, for the love of God, I need to know if you're going to do the stuff you said you'd do that I quoted above or not.

So here it is:

Impact steps down and becomes Pierce's lieutenant. Or some other sideways-shift to another position that establishes Pierce and Impact as equals, except Pierce can overrule Impact only when they're out on the field. Like, I dunno, Pierce being team leader and Impact becoming Head of Intelligence or some such. Alternatively: Impact becoming Head of the Watchmen and Pierce being promoted to Field Commander, as long as it's clarified in-game that both positions are equal.

In exchange, I myself will be less of a nuisance toward you fine people. Generally nicer, less whiny, and whatnot. It can be a drastic change that would last for a specific amount of time, and once that time is up I still wouldn't be quite as obnoxious as I am now. Alternatively, it can be a permanent change but of a much lesser order of magnitude.

There's my offer. Feel free to specify whatever parts you want when/if you make your counteroffer. Though I'd suggest against making a counteroffer I can't refuse, because I might just refuse it.

So apparently I was supposed to make an illustration of Drac.

http://i38.tinypic.com/33w7028.jpg

Not sure why it was requested.

This portrayal is entirely accurate.

Normally, I suppose I should be crapping in my pants because Geminex and Bard are plotting against me. But hell, there's a rather defiant part of me that wants to scream "Bring it on, mothafuggas!" And it's a really big part.

Though, you know, if you two feel I've crossed a line somewhere with my obnoxiousness, all you have to do is tell me

EDIT: Oh you've got to be shitting me. They finally fix the forum clock just in time to make this post not make any sense? I mean, shit.

I'm just going to wait until the clock catches up, delete this post and post it again so it'll show up after Bard's.

Astral Harmony

08-14-2010, 02:21 PM

The details in the beer bottle are incredible. I wish I could sprite like that.

Anyways, about time for duty. I woke up this morning refreshed and ready to do a sprite comic with much of the dialog in my head. Especially Matthias. That's gonna be the best one.

So, Bard, you changed your title to Geminex? I don't get it at all, but I find it damn hilarious regardless.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 02:25 PM

It's something to do with an avatar someone made for Geminex (because no one in NPF knows who you are if you don't have an avatar) that Bard stole.

Also, those two have been like this for a while now, so it was the next logical step in their relationship.

Astral Harmony

08-14-2010, 02:26 PM

I didn't know Geminex made avatars. I wish I could do that.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 02:27 PM

Nah, Gem didn't make it. Someone made it for him. In this thread (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=38524), page 6.

And now they are truly inside one another.

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 02:29 PM

Blues made it for him, I just took it for fun. Its a 'Gem' in an 'X'! Get it?!

Astral Harmony

08-14-2010, 02:41 PM

Well, stop that. It makes me think you submitted yourself to become his mindslave and the seizure inducing avatar is his branding on you.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 02:44 PM

... What do you think I've been saying in my last two posts?

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 02:44 PM

I'll change it back to Vriska or Konata after I see his reaction.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 02:45 PM

You do realize that now his reaction is going to be the opposite of what you want?

Astral Harmony

08-14-2010, 02:59 PM

In hindsight, I will say this for a surety: Geminex, when Impact gets his world-conquering army, they will wear that avatar on their uniforms to show their alliance to you. I don't know if you're happy or sad about it, but it's final and so no amount of Tobasco Slim Jims will get me to decide otherwise.

Now I'm off to work. Have fun, pimps.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 03:04 PM

No, no, I have a better idea.

Brand it on their arms.

Pledge your allegiance to High Overlord Impact or Death!

Geminex

08-14-2010, 04:18 PM

Ok, first: The Laser Togekiss bit was OOC only. Nothing Renny knows about.

Yes. Impact being leader was not the sweetener. My offering to forget the favor, on the other hand, was. I was gonna make it something else, but I didn't have the proper authority to do so. Pity, that. Trust me, you would've been falling over yourself to declare Charlotte leader and polish my shoes and whatever else I wanted. Mind you, I'm not going to tell you what it is, but that the time of writing, I was pretty sure it was gonna work. So yeah, all those promises? I've pretty much fullfilled them as much as I'm going to.

Now you're saying if I don't pick Charlotte as leader the deal goes to hell. Nnnooo. I'm saying that I'm unwilling to continue ngotiations if your responses just consist of declining, and asking for proof that Charlotte's better than Pierce. I am fully willing to consider Pierce as a leader, if the price is right. And y'know what? That price? It ain't right.

I mean honestly. You want me to take you seriously (... sometimes, anyway. I guess. Right?), but you make that kind of offer? 'I won't be an asshole'? Really? That only works when I do it. And even then, not well. And only supported by threats.
But I am going to wait with the counteroffer, because you have not yet made any kind of offer in regards to Charlotte. I would like to hear what compromise I'd have to make for her to be leader. Name your price. The favor is not sufficient?

And no lines have yet been crossed. You're just standard-annoying, not hyper-annoying. And besides, we're not conspiring! Much.
Though if we were, you would not want us to bring it on. You would not see the light of day ever again.

And AB, screw that. I'd have to get blue to make it more badass before that would be acceptable? And besides, what world-conquering army?

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 04:20 PM

G3M1N3X, OUR 4VV4T4RS MUST B4TTL3 TO TH3 D34TH.

TH3R3 C4N ONLY B3 ON3!

Geminex

08-14-2010, 04:33 PM

M4Y 1 SUGG3ST B4CKGROUND MUS1C? (http://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/the-lemonsnout-turnabout)

NOW W3 H4V3 4 SHOWDOWN. M4N1PUL4T3-OFF COMM3NC1NG!

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 04:38 PM

YOU S33, YOU H4V3 F4LL3N R1GHT 1NTO MY TR4P.

1 KN3W YOU W3R3 GO1NG TO DO TH4T.

Geminex

08-14-2010, 04:56 PM

1 SHUDD3R 1N F34R.

1F YOU H4D 4CTU4LLY PR3P4RED FOR SUCH 4 S1TU4T1ON 1N 4 W4Y TH4T WOULD L3T YOU TURN 1T TO YOUR 4DV4NT4GE, TH3 4BOV3 ST4T3M3NT WOULD H4V3 COM3 1NF3ST1M4LLY CLOS3R TO B31NG TRU3.

YOUR3 NOT V3RY GOOD 4T TH1S 4R3 YOU.
W4NT M3 TO T34CH YOU?

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 04:59 PM

OK TH3N, WHY NOT.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 07:21 PM

You two make me want to kill myself.

Ok, first: The Laser Togekiss bit was OOC only. Nothing Renny knows about.

Umm... You might wanna check out my latest post in the RP thread. Read it carefully. And you should know that actually happened before you posted that Impact didn't support lasering Togekiss.

Yes. Impact being leader was not the sweetener. My offering to forget the favor, on the other hand, was. I was gonna make it something else, but I didn't have the proper authority to do so. Pity, that. Trust me, you would've been falling over yourself to declare Charlotte leader and polish my shoes and whatever else I wanted. Mind you, I'm not going to tell you what it is, but that the time of writing, I was pretty sure it was gonna work. So yeah, all those promises? I've pretty much fullfilled them as much as I'm going to.

That's not sweetener! That's not sweetener at all! You're just cashing in a favor. Sweetener would've been Pierce being made Charlotte's second in command or something and the favor being forgotten. Basically, I'd have to get something on top of the favor being paid in order for it to be sweetener. Otherwise, like I said, you're just collecting on a debt.

Unless you were actually planning of calling in the favor at another time to make me do something that would prove detrimental toward myself. In which case you should've made it clear. But I doubt that's the case, since there's not really anything I can do for you, is there?

In the future, we might want to specify that favor means "binding contract that you will fulfill when it is called upon". Oh well.

Also, allow me to reiterate this:

And by "refining" I meant "make them better for you". Everyone, I guess. But Drac in particular. Trust me. This is the chance of a lifetime I talked about.
Just need oooone little PM to AB...

I don't recall you making anything better for me in particular. Of course, I could be wrong.

Nnnooo. I'm saying that I'm unwilling to continue ngotiations if your responses just consist of declining, and asking for proof that Charlotte's better than Pierce. I am fully willing to consider Pierce as a leader, if the price is right. And y'know what? That price? It ain't right.

Hey, I haven't asked for proof of Charlotte over Pierce again. And I'm not going to anymore, now that we've determined this is a negotation and not a discussion.

Also, I don't want to decline, but you keep making offers that just aren't worth it.

But you know what? The hell with it.

I mean honestly. You want me to take you seriously (... sometimes, anyway. I guess. Right?), but you make that kind of offer? 'I won't be an asshole'? Really? That only works when I do it. And even then, not well. And only supported by threats.

I can't really make threats. No one ever really takes me seriously and then I have to go through with them and then we're all unhappy.

But I am going to wait with the counteroffer, because you have not yet made any kind of offer in regards to Charlotte. I would like to hear what compromise I'd have to make for her to be leader. Name your price. The favor is not sufficient?

Okay, I have a counteroffer in mind, I do. It's one you'd love. But I want to see your response to everything else in this post before I tell you it.

And no lines have yet been crossed. You're just standard-annoying, not hyper-annoying. And besides, we're not conspiring! Much.
Though if we were, you would not want us to bring it on. You would not see the light of day ever again.

Don't go there. I will start making threats and then everything goes to hell.

And AB, screw that. I'd have to get blue to make it more badass before that would be acceptable? And besides, what world-conquering army?

But you still have to brand it on their arms.

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 07:42 PM

You two make me want to kill myself.

H3H3H3H3H3H3H3

BUT Y34H, TH4T H4S TO B3 TH3 LOGO FOR 1MP4CT'S 4RMY.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 08:02 PM

Blow it out your ass, Bard.

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 08:22 PM

Ok yeah, that was getting pretty old pretty fast.

I suppose it got a rise out of you though, so it was worth it. And I figure Gem will keep it up so >:).

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 08:25 PM

Well [now it won't work.

Bard The 5th LW

08-14-2010, 08:27 PM

You just keep telling yourself that.

Dracorion

08-14-2010, 08:43 PM

Don't mind if I do!

Geminex

08-15-2010, 03:57 AM

Umm... You might wanna check out my latest post in the RP thread. Read it carefully. And you should know that actually happened before you posted that Impact didn't support lasering Togekiss.

Oh, wow. You're god-moding! Very nicely done. Classy! That's totally a valid counter-argument!
...
Edit your fucking post. Impact never gave any agreement (as you can tell by the fact that I never actually posted him agreeing). Fire Lexhur's laser. But hell, Pierce is gonna be taking the fall on that one and don't you dare try to share responsibility with Impact for that.

And what do you mean, the favor's no sweetener? I'm not calling it in! That's the entire point! I'm offering to forget it if you agree to Charlotte. The deal becomes better for you, since you do not only gain a highly competent, effective leader (:3), but also don't have to do me a favor later. A favor which you most certainly would otherwise have to do at the worst possible moment.

If I were calling it in, the favor would be 'agree to this deal' and our discussion would be whether a moderate favor is sufficient to make that happen. But like I said, that's not what's happening.

But you still have to brand it on their arms.
...
Perhaps.

Also, I don't want to decline, but you keep making offers that just aren't worth it.
I really don't think they're all that 'not worth it'...
But very well. Let's hear your counteroffer.

Dracorion

08-15-2010, 09:50 AM

Oh, wow. You're god-moding! Very nicely done. Classy! That's totally a valid counter-argument!
...
Edit your fucking post. Impact never gave any agreement (as you can tell by the fact that I never actually posted him agreeing). Fire Lexhur's laser. But hell, Pierce is gonna be taking the fall on that one and don't you dare try to share responsibility with Impact for that.

... You do realize that if I had Pierce make these decisions for himself either you or Impact would be getting all pissy about it?

Which is why I decided to have Pierce clear it with Impact, and since you're not posting, yes, a tiny amount of god-moding was necessary. Or are we going by the assumption that Impact simply went mysteriously mute around the time that your posting became scarce?

Like I said, it happened before you posted. I never meant it as a counter-argument. But hey, post edited now.

And what do you mean, the favor's no sweetener? I'm not calling it in! That's the entire point! I'm offering to forget it if you agree to Charlotte. The deal becomes better for you, since you do not only gain a highly competent, effective leader (:3), but also don't have to do me a favor later. A favor which you most certainly would otherwise have to do at the worst possible moment.

See, now that you're saying it I don't believe you.

And, you know, since I don't believe that Charlotte would be a highly competent, effective leader, I think I'd rather have to owe you a favor later.

If I were calling it in, the favor would be 'agree to this deal' and our discussion would be whether a moderate favor is sufficient to make that happen. But like I said, that's not what's happening.

... That is what you did. You worded it in a way that made it seemed like the favor was being forgotten, but goddamn man!

I could've masked my proposal to depose Impact in a way that made it seem like I was doing you a favor, but that wouldn't have changed the fact that I was screwing you over!

You were saying that one moderate favor was worth having Charlotte as leader. And you were trying to get me to agree. However way you want to put it, that is cashing in the favor.

I really don't think they're all that 'not worth it'...
But very well. Let's hear your counteroffer.

And here it is:

I'm going to shoot myself in the foot here. I'll vote for Charlotte. In exchange, you will forget the moderate favor and if for whatever reason Charlotte ever has to step down as leader, Pierce gets the job, no questions asked.

And of course, I promise not to organize Charlotte's downfall or have a hand in it in any way.

And now you've fallen into my trap! You're going to feel so bad about me selling out for such a low price that you're going to sweeten this up for me. Kinda like a kid resignedly giving you his candy.

Geminex

08-15-2010, 10:40 AM

First, thanks for editing. Though...

... You do realize that if I had Pierce make these decisions for himself either you or Impact would be getting all pissy about it?

Sure, we can assume he had some feedback. But hey, he's a soldier in combat, he can't always devote his attention to leading.

Though, conveniently, his breaks from leadership will coicide exactly with mine. ^^
Also, because we're finally done here, apparently (I can hardly believe it), I'm willing to let Renny and Pierce share the credit for the last few turns. Mind you, I have time now, so the amount of credit they get to take ends with the latest plan you posted. Still. There's your candy.

In fact, lemme just resummarize the deal:

- I give up leadership. This means Impact no longer commands the watchmen, in-battle or out. We're gonna need to justify this idea, I favor that Impact would get promoted in a manner that's technically more advantageous to him, but that causes him to lose all authority over the Watchmen. AB, would it be feasible that he gets some sort of military rank, for some reason? Rayleen seemed pretty impressed with him, and there's gonna be a lot of Prideguard prisoners by the time the battle's over. Maybe put him in charge of integrating those prisoners into PATCA? He'd technically get more power, but he'd have no command over the Watchmen. I don't give up all claim to leadership, but unless some really, really drastic change happens, plot-wise or otherwise, I won't attempt to regain it. Impact's imperious, commanding manner will continue, but he won't actually have any authority to back it up, so your characters can retaliate however they please, should he be too much of a dick. One thing I reserve the right to, is to negotiate later to have Impact lead during the last mission. It'd be nicely thematic, and, quite probably, plot-important. I won't negotiate yet, but when I do, I'd discuss this with all of you, and you will probably be compensated.

- Charlotte replaces Impact as leader. This may be because Rayleen gets really, really drunk, or because Impact picks her as his replacement, which I favor. If Charlotte drops out, Pierce replaces her as leader.
...
Charlotte had better not drop out.
Just to clarify, though, Pierce is still a standard tactician, on the same level as Impact or Renny. He's not vice-leader, he's just a guy takes initiative if the actual leader is no longer active.
Also, I'll do my best to ensure Charlotte's competence.

-The moderate favor Drac owed me is forgotten.

- Within the next few days, I'll post several rules and guidelines, regarding which changes in character power, and general modifications to the battle system, are permissible. The goal thereof would be to channel character power, limit excessive growth, make sure all characters have roughly the same strength, and generally stop the battle system from getting screwed by not-thought-out changes. These are still sort of vague, but I've described them before, and they'd be in the vein of the arguing I've done so far. We'd discuss these, but my willingness to compromise would be limited. Yours, I hope, would be less so. Should our discussion of these fail and we be unable to agree on guidelines, the entire deal would have to be reevaluated. Please do not let this happen. Once the guidelines are all worked out, you'd agree to abide by them (meaning you wouldn't make imbalanced suggestions, and argue against all those who do make them). I'd have to trust you not to screw me over by purposefully misinterpreting them. Spirit of the law, people. Not the letter. But you knew that.

That's all, I think. Does everyone agree to this?

Dracorion

08-15-2010, 11:31 AM

Oh wait, no I don't!

That's right! I'm betraying you! Again!

Ha ha!

...
Nah, just kidding. I'm in.

Though, I would like to clarify. When I say "if Charlotte ever steps down as leader" I mean even if it's a temporary stepping down Pierce will be put in charge. When she returns, Pierce will hand leadership back, of course.

And this is just an opinion: I've already expressed my views that Impact's job change should be more of a sideways motion. "Promotion" just has so many connotations to it, and I'd hate for Charlotte's leadership to be impaired by Impact technically being her superior and her having to follow, or thinking she has to follow, his "suggestions".

EDIT: I am going to laugh so hard if it turns out Dante doesn't want Charlotte as leader.

Geminex

08-15-2010, 02:43 PM

EDIT: I am going to laugh so hard if it turns out Dante doesn't want Charlotte as leader.
That wouldn't be nice. I'd have to... have a polite and civilized conversation with him outlining the pros and cons of his unfortunate choice. And besides, didn't he already say yes?

And Impact abandons all rank-based authority. That means, whatever we arrange to remove his leader status, even if he should become the sole remaining legitimate Prideguard general, we'd do it in a way that makes it impossible for Impact to use this authority to get his way during missions, or in any other PATCA-related context. The simplest case would just be for me to agree to avoid doing so, which I do. Impact's no longer leader, people. Once Dante agrees again. I won't try to get around that. In return, I expect that none of you try to get around the rules we'll set up.

And the Charlotte thing, yeah. That's what I meant.

Dracorion

08-15-2010, 03:13 PM

I forget.

To be fair, who of us remembers what Dante does?

Geminex

08-15-2010, 04:50 PM

Oooooooh SNAP.
You just burned Dante. He is ON FIRE OH MAN SOMEBODY PUT HIM OUT HE IS DYING OH NO HE IS DEAD NOW because Drac BURNED HIM.

Do I make myself clear? Now, let's talk about something less inane. Not sure what.

Astral Harmony

08-15-2010, 05:06 PM

Right, I've got a day off and I plan to put a lot of work in today.

Starting off with Geminex. You can't get a military rank because PATCA is not a military organization. Additionally, you are a squadron leader. Stuff like interrogation and integrating units into the squadron is not your responsibility. And no, you cannot make it your responsibility.

There isn't going to be a lot of Prideguard prisoners after the battle. In fact, the only thing PATCA gets that originally belonged to the Prideguard in Grant's Arceus.

Hell, if it comes to that, I'd actually have Matthias do it for interrogation and Rayleen's replacement to work on squadron assignment. With Porygon Z's hacking ability, Matthias is well capable of gathering all kinds of information, especially the kinds of information that even I as GM wouldn't want him to find. He could concievably break the plot in certain places.

Then he could go up to prisoners during interrogation with all of his printed evidence and be all Phoenix Wright on a motherfucker.

Speaking of Dante, I need more details on your character's appearance in order to create a decent sprite of him. All I have are details about what Venomoth characteristics he has. Nothing about hair color or eye color or the clothes he wears.

Same for Menarker. All I have for Renny is that he's a cute li'l munchkin with messy blond hair. No eye color or clothes to speak of. Please tell me that he does wear something. I'd hate to think that all this time, Renny as a 16-year old boy has been running around and fighting while stark naked.

As for the sprite comic, I guess it's about...oh, 70% done? The toughest part for me (dialogue) is finished. The sprites for Impact, Pierce, and Charlotte are all done. I just need expanded descriptions on what Renny and Matthias look like so I can create sprites of them. I imagine the comic will be finished probably Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon. All I can say for the sprite comic is, I think you're all going to hate me for taking one dimension of your character and focusing completely on that for the dialogue. But it is funny. At least I'm laughing.

I'll have the RP post finished this afternoon sometime. In my mind, Moera just seems to get more and more badass. I think she's going to end up becoming one powerful villain.

I'm not sure about actually branding the Geminex avatar on the arm. I had an idea where it changes color based on outside stimuli, the blue being all conditions normal, red when enemies are detected, yellow when unsafe environmental conditions are detected, and other crap.

Dracorion

08-15-2010, 05:17 PM

Same for Menarker. All I have for Renny is that he's a cute li'l munchkin with messy blond hair. No eye color or clothes to speak of. Please tell me that he does wear something. I'd hate to think that all this time, Renny as a 16-year old boy has been running around and fighting while stark naked.

YES.

YES FUCK YES THIS IS WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING.

NO SERIOUSLY, THIS IS IT.

CAN YOU IMAGINE IF HE USED VALIANT RUSH? OH WOW.

As for the sprite comic, I guess it's about...oh, 70% done? The toughest part for me (dialogue) is finished. The sprites for Impact, Pierce, and Charlotte are all done. I just need expanded descriptions on what Renny and Matthias look like so I can create sprites of them. I imagine the comic will be finished probably Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon. All I can say for the sprite comic is, I think you're all going to hate me for taking one dimension of your character and focusing completely on that for the dialogue. But it is funny. At least I'm laughing.

Don't worry, I'll probably be laughing. Though, if you do Pierce wrong I'll be protesting in-between laughs.

I'll have the RP post finished this afternoon sometime. In my mind, Moera just seems to get more and more badass. I think she's going to end up becoming one powerful villain.

Fuck no.

I swear to Christ, I will have Pierce go all OOC and behead her, torch her, dip her in acid then nuke the remains if that's what it takes to keep her from coming back.

I'm not sure about actually branding the Geminex avatar on the arm. I had an idea where it changes color based on outside stimuli, the blue being all conditions normal, red when enemies are detected, yellow when unsafe environmental conditions are detected, and other crap.

That'd be cheating, wouldn't it? I'm totally against giving Geminex a way to detect spies.

Also, you can have all sorts of fancy toys for detecting unsafe conditions, so the avatar doesn't need that particular feature.

Geminex

08-15-2010, 05:22 PM

Starting off with Geminex. You can't get a military rank because PATCA is not a military organization. Additionally, you are a squadron leader. Stuff like interrogation and integrating units into the squadron is not your responsibility. And no, you cannot make it your responsibility.

Well, yeah. We're looking for an excuse for Impact to no longer be leader. I don't want him to get demoted though, so what I'm thinking is this:

- For some reason or another, Impact gets rank in the military (my suggestion to justify this would have been military integration, but I'd be happy to make it something else).

- Because, as you said, PATCA is not a military organization, he cannot have both military and PATCA rank. He'd still go on missions because hell, he's still a watchman, he just can't be an officer in PATCA because of some technicality.

- This would justify his no-longer-being-leader without disadvantaging him.

And hell, all the stuff you state as fact is only fact because you say it is. If you change your mind, it's no longer fact. Can I get you to change your mind in order to facilitate this deal?

Edit:
And ok, I'll start taking the tatoo idea seriously. I'm thinking scythe-blades crossed behind a blood ruby. For certain, honored forces. They wear it as a mark of pride.

Dracorion

08-15-2010, 05:33 PM

No, no.

They must all wear it, man.

Okay, maybe they don't have to. I just think it'd be much cooler to have a thousand Marks of Impact marching side-by-side to battle, y'know?

Wherein the Mark of Impact is a literal brand on their arm.

Astral Harmony

08-15-2010, 08:26 PM

The problem is that you claim giving up leadership would, in some way, put Impact at a disadvantage. In my opinion, that's not true. In a way, not being the leader, at least for a time, may prove benefitial to Impact in the future. Kinda help him see how his primary enemies in the sequel lead troops and how they think.

And the idea you have is kinda silly. You basically want me to create this other group or give you an rank so you can be a leader even though you won't be the leader. I can't for the life of me figure out what good that would do for anyone, yourself included.

If you want to be the leader, then stay the leader. Bard and Dracorian can complain about it all they want. Hell, if either of them were leader, they'd just invent something new to complain about. So far as I know, Menarker doesn't give a shit, and I'm certain Dante said he doesn't give a shit.

So here's what I propose: if you're gonna settle this issue, settle it in-character. You'll probably have to wait until the end of Pierce's sidequest because I imagine that the moment Mission 3 ends, Pierce is going to be too preoccupied to deal with you and Charlotte. But when you three get the chance, I wanna see it. Impact's Dragon Slave versus Charlotte's shotgun versus Pierce's Staff of Phantomere with this music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WBzFoYwSVY) in the background.

And actually, all three of you will get to lead in Pierce's sidequest.

Dracorion

08-15-2010, 08:39 PM

Oh AB, you always brighten up my day. Even when I see it coming.

If you want to be the leader, then stay the leader. Bard and Dracorian can complain about it all they want. Hell, if either of them were leader, they'd just invent something new to complain about.

This is entirely true.

So here's what I propose: if you're gonna settle this issue, settle it in-character. You'll probably have to wait until the end of Pierce's sidequest because I imagine that the moment Mission 3 ends, Pierce is going to be too preoccupied to deal with you and Charlotte. But when you three get the chance, I wanna see it. Impact's Dragon Slave versus Charlotte's shotgun versus Pierce's Staff of Phantomere with this music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WBzFoYwSVY) in the background.

That sounds like it'd be hella fun.

And actually, all three of you will get to lead in Pierce's sidequest.

What, you're splitting the main formation even more?

Bard The 5th LW

08-15-2010, 09:28 PM

So what's the ultimatum here? Who is leader?

Cause I got this cool victory dance GIF. and I don't want it to go to waste. It doesn't even have to be me who uses it.

Astral Harmony

08-15-2010, 10:34 PM

You need to be a leader to use a victory dance? You could just use that dance everytime you kill someone who's on your shit list.

Anyways, I figured that we would actually be split in three parties. Pierce is by himself, then we split up the rest of the PCs and NPCs to tackle various obstacles to help divide the incoming threats of which there are many. Faynoc's been a busy little immoral Pokebrid.

Obviously, Impact will lead one group while Charlotte will lead another unless they decide they must be together, which, considering how close Geminex and Bard are getting...*shrugs uncertainly*

With quite a large number of bosses and a good variety of foes even before including Pokemon units, Pierce's sidequest is going to be quite a ruckus.

EDIT: Post won't be finished tonight. I could have it done in another hour, but I'm having doubts about what I've posted. I'm going to think about it real quick and then work the kinks out. It just doesn't feel right.

Geminex

08-16-2010, 05:08 AM

Obviously, Impact will lead one group while Charlotte will lead another unless they decide they must be together, which, considering how close Geminex and Bard are getting...*shrugs uncertainly*
OUR RELATIONSHIP IS ENTIRELY PLATONIC.

So what's the ultimatum here? Who is leader?
Oh for god's sake.
YOU ARE. PROBABLY. THAT'S WHAT I JUST SPENT AGES NEGOTIATING.
...
ENTIRELY PLATONIC.

The problem is that you claim giving up leadership would, in some way, put Impact at a disadvantage. In my opinion, that's not true. In a way, not being the leader, at least for a time, may prove benefitial to Impact in the future. Kinda help him see how his primary enemies in the sequel lead troops and how they think.

And the idea you have is kinda silly. You basically want me to create this other group or give you an rank so you can be a leader even though you won't be the leader. I can't for the life of me figure out what good that would do for anyone, yourself included.

Once again, this isn't about being leader. I never said it was about being leader, never even implied it! I'm merely looking for an excuse for Impact to stop leading the watchmen, without harming him directly. Because, while you're right, him giving up leadership wouldn't be too bad for him, we need to come up with an excuse as to why he's no longer leader, but Charlotte is. Because I don't just want to have him demoted! That'd have to involve him making some mistake, or Rayleen going 'hey, you're not well-suited to leading after all!'. That'd make him look pretty bad. I'm trying to find a way not to make my character look bad, and if that's silly, then call me mister pants-on-head.

The suggestion I made (him being promoted into the military) would give us all three aims: It'd provide a justification why Impact's no longer leader, it'd do so without harming him (since it's less 'YOU'RE NOT GOOD AT LEADING GO AWAY' and more 'We require your skills elsewhere'), and, as a bonus, it'd justify why Charlotte should be leader (since Impact would be allowed to pick a replacement, namely Charlotte). It's an elegant, simple solution, it provides ample justification, and I really don't know why you're unwilling to help us with this. It'd require one or two sentences of explanation at most (I'd do the rest), the changes it makes overall would be nigh-neglegible. And it's not like I'm asking you for a personal favor, for any sort of advantage! Just for a bit of help facilitating a deal without harming my character.

If you can think of a way to do it that agrees with you more, sure! Gladly! And if you really don't want to help, well, ok, whatever you want. I'll find some other way, though without your assistance, it really won't be a very good transition. *shrug*

In any case, I'll stop discussing this now.

Astral Harmony

08-16-2010, 05:30 AM

Well, let's just make this simple, then.

Impact is the current leader.

He can decide to put Charlotte, Pierce, Renny, or Matthias in that position. No NPCs there. That's just a bucket of shenanigans that will overrun with blood. I'd expect Charlotte to pull a Lancer out of an alternate dimension and just go to town on the issue.

He doesn't have to explain why he made this decision to anybody, District Chief included. And he doesn't lose face. In fact, I daresay it would actually be big of him.

Geminex

08-16-2010, 05:33 AM

Oh. Allrighty then. Never mind my prattling.
...
Could he, like, set up a series of challenges? Maybe a Very Lethal Obstacle Course. Or a gladiatorial arena. Or wrestling!
Or a combination of the three, fuck yeah. Renny vs. Charlotte vs. Pierce. First to two points gets leadership.
...
That'd cool, guys? Right?
...
Right?

Astral Harmony

08-16-2010, 05:36 AM

Umm...

Confer with your council?

Just go with the flow and demand sexual favors. I wanna see Charlotte's eyebrows on the ceiling.

Geminex

08-16-2010, 05:41 AM

Well, that'd involve giving Renny The Talk, and I'm not sure whether Impact's qualified to do that.

...

Next comic. Rayleen. Renny. The Talk. MAKE HAPPEN.

Edit: As for Pierce and Charlotte, well, I think Pierce is committed to Tyranitar, and Charlotte is almost as asexual as Impact, so...

Menarker

08-16-2010, 10:38 AM

Same for Menarker. All I have for Renny is that he's a cute li'l munchkin with messy blond hair. No eye color or clothes to speak of. Please tell me that he does wear something. I'd hate to think that all this time, Renny as a 16-year old boy has been running around and fighting while stark naked.

*STREAKS in front of all the ladies, jumping with excitement and eagerness* >_> That would explain an awful lot why almost everyone was so adamant not to get hugged by Renny in the RP's early stage!

Although now I got the mental image of the beach episode where Renny's trunks are stolen/ripped off (Spitz doing a vicious verson of a Coppertone ad?)or something and he's streaking down trying to find clothing or something. (No invisibility bonus for imitating Elan!)

Although I did post one or twice that he had gotten changed, especially for the party (and the second one)

Anyhow, clear blue eyes bright with passion and light. ^^ As for clothing, he'd wear long shorts that reach a bit past the knees, runners, a light comfortable t-shirt and a light jacket he always wears unzipped during good weather. Wears a belt with pokeballs (Luxury Balls, so they are black, but I won't mind if you have to show normal balls in the sprite comic due to ease or lack of appropriate sprite)

Well, everyone, I'm back safe and sound. Had a good time, saw lots of places and even got a girlfriend more or less. ^^

Well, that'd involve giving Renny The Talk, and I'm not sure whether Impact's qualified to do that.

...

Next comic. Rayleen. Renny. The Talk. MAKE HAPPEN.

Given all the ladies stripping in front of him, sleeping in his bed, catching Moon and Shannon in the act, seeing a bit of Evangaleen's recordings, he probably knows a bit here and there. You know... on top of NOT being a idiot.

However, it WOULD be amusing to have people think he still doesn't know and trying to teach him things in the process. Pierce also seems to have volunteered one of his NPCs in the attempt to corrupt him.

Dracorion

08-16-2010, 12:10 PM

With quite a large number of bosses and a good variety of foes even before including Pokemon units, Pierce's sidequest is going to be quite a ruckus.

And funnily enough, Pierce's part may be the most normal of 'em all.

Oh. Allrighty then. Never mind my prattling.
...
Could he, like, set up a series of challenges? Maybe a Very Lethal Obstacle Course. Or a gladiatorial arena. Or wrestling!
Or a combination of the three, fuck yeah. Renny vs. Charlotte vs. Pierce. First to two points gets leadership.
...
That'd cool, guys? Right?
...
Right?

Either Charlotte would win, or Pierce would win.

See, Impact would get ganged up on from the start. Then it'd be down to Pierce and Charlotte.

Charlotte has a shotgun, which is either going to be her instant win button... or it won't. So it comes down to a coin toss.

Geminex

08-16-2010, 12:19 PM

Impact wouldn't participate, you dolt. He'd be going 'Hey, whoever kills everyone else gets to be leader!'. He'd be the mysterious mastermind, watching your desperate, bloody struggle via armored cctv cameras, the kind of guy who asks you if you would like to play a game, and then does so regardless of your answer.

Also, what the fuck, people? How is there an RP that everyone in this RP has joined, except for me? I feel left-out! It's like you don't like me or something.

Menarker

08-16-2010, 12:26 PM

Gem, I'm reading over the negotiation and the deals therein between you and "everyone" although mainly Drac, and you're saying that everyone benefits out of this. For me, I'm not quite seeing that. From what I'm seeing...

A: Impact stops being leader: I didn't care so much either way, especially since my deal in the first place was to support you initially for leader. It basically just means you're freeing me from something I agreed to in the first place. You also didn't answer my question about whether you/Impact would keep to his promise of helping Renny with Lola and the afforded protection therein... or if that would be null and voided too, which would make that entire thing a negative since you had your chance of being leader which means I did my part with Renny supporting Impact but not getting anything back and thus not holding up your part of the former deal.

B: Charlotte will be leader: Once again, not totally enthuasiatic about it, but no actual complaints roleplaying wise or OOC, since it more or less doesn't involve Renny or myself. Bard seems to benefit lots from this, unless he's secretly wishing that someone else wants to be leader.

C: Drac gets to lose his owing you a favor and is sure to be next leader if Charlotte loses leader status. No issues, but once again not involving me. Overall plus for Drac in my view.

D: Toughening up how we deal with techniques and powers and such, with all standards organized by you. Which was something we have contested with majorly as this gives you an awful lot of power for something that influences all the other players, and for something I feel should be dealt with on an individual basis and on the basis of the characters and the only sole power being the GM. This is basically a big negative for me initially as well as the others if it turns out our worries were justified in the end.

E: Dante seems to have no vocal chords either way. He either finds it beneficial or neutrally acceptable and doesn't care to ask for something that'll suit him.

So as it stands, the deal is unfavorable. The major cruxes of the deal from what I see is the transfer of leadership and the re-organization of rules/powers.
That Charlotte is leader is specifying the end result of a cause and effect of what happens when you leave as leader, since there has to be a new leader or the group ends up being a senate or some other democratic system that is impossible to use feasibly in combat situations. While you do more or less intend to stay in power to some extent in some other way, you have a hand in choosing the leader by choosing Charlotte (which doesn't seem to effect anyone really negatively, but is a bonus for you since you more or less dislike or hate the other candidates for leader)
The toughening of rules and standards using your measuring stick is a risky addition to the deal, but is cruical since this is the major reason why you're willing to depart from being leader in the first place. Of course, giving you this sort of power has set off a lot of alarms. So you had to reassure us by specifying your policy and/or giving deals to make the entire offer seem platable.

Charlotte gets leadership and thus the chance to really run wild. That and Bard doesn't seem to personally object too much. It seems that Bard is fine more or less with the deal then.

Dante as mentioned above doesn't seem to care too much either way, although technically the deal is still disadvantagous for him since you're holding sway over powers and abilities that really belong to his character.

Drac had issues with your agreement, so that's where you went into negotiation phase and basically worked out that he would be next leader and his favor forgotten. This basically is a token of good faith that he'll still benefit and thrive even when giving you a larger role in handling how his character is able to develop.

I however am stuck in negative because the transfer of leadership really does almost nothing for me, so what is left is what you have to say about your policy for how game-balance would be moderated, which is a lot of power to give to someone who is actually an active player and not a GM. It is no secret that I tend to be more liberal in giving myself and other people strong stuff while you seem to have a more conservative history of wanting to balance it out to fit a certain invisible level, normally lowering it in the process (not trying to demonize you since you have made concessions before). Since the two of us are more or less opposites and see character abilities in different ways, both as the individual as well as in a group setting, things are more or less at an impasse. In order for me to more or less accept the proposed deal, you would have to...

A: Be more specific on how this would work so we aren't under any false impression or misunderstandings on what everyone's expections are (have some sort of policy made for us to check out or something?) You said you'll write it up in a bit, so I look forward to seeing the finished result.

B: Offer me something (negotiate) that'll somehow result in making me feel that somehow I can trust that you won't suddenly yank the chain when we propose something critical about our character. Much the same thing you did with Drac, making someone feel easier about trusting you with something quite game-changing.

C: Maybe some sort of leeway involved if character development related things are addressed in advance, so that any percieved character concepts or ability can be worked out smoothly. For example, let's pretend I eventually wanted Renny to be able to send more than 2 pokemons out at a time (maybe taking up slots of other NPC trainers if none of their pokemons are suitable for the situation) as an example of power through friendship, teamwork, numbers and diversity. Let's say that I intend to maximize the potential of such an ability by taking the Snagger class (so I can have a larger size of maximum pokemons I can carry with me and thus a larger diverse pool of elements and techniques to choose from). I would be OUTRAGED if I took the snagger class in antipication of one day getting that ability when I reach the right level, only to have it rejected utterly when proposed and thus making the levels wasted.

Phew, that was a long rant. Excuse me if I poorly explained or misrepresented your position. Still tired from an entire day of flying. (Also forgive me for stating this now, but not only was I busy on vacation, but you were already busy with Drac and I didn't want to complicate things by throwing everything I just said in the middle of it.)

Anyhow, looking forward to what you got to say.

Dracorion

08-16-2010, 12:41 PM

Menarker:

+1 Cool Point.

Astral Harmony

08-16-2010, 02:20 PM

A comic about giving Renny the talk, eh?

...

Pfft ha ha ha ha ha! Right, I'll totally do that. I'm eager to think up how each girl will react to Renny asking her the question?

Bard The 5th LW

08-16-2010, 02:47 PM

Edit: As for Pierce and Charlotte, well, I think Pierce is committed to Tyranitar, and Charlotte is almost as asexual as Impact, so...

She has had some relationship problems over the years. She doesn't talk about it (or her personal life in general) because sees all of you simply as something slightly less than co-workers.

And I am trying to shoot for the leader thing, believe, but I won't be too dissapointed or displeased if it falls through.

Who knows, maybe Charlotte will get sick of it and give the job off to someone else, but that simply depends.

Geminex

08-16-2010, 02:49 PM

Grrraaaargh.
This annoys me.
See, I could have sworn that you showed preliminary agreement to all of this. That it seemed like you would NOT OBJECT.

Buuut very well. A less kind and understanding individual would accuse you of foul play, but your objections are not too large. I will assume good faith.

I won't quote your points, just respond.
Nooo... I'm not benefiting from the transition from Impact to Charlotte. Sure, it's better than some of the alternatives, but I'm still losing power. Certainly I'm losing more effective power than I'm gaining with the ability to set up these rules.

And, once again, these rules are soley to be used to improve this RP. I'll set them up (with, like I repeatedly said, your collective feedback), but afterwards I'll have to abide by them as much as you do. I can argue by them, of course, I can say 'Your ability isn't balanced because it violates rule three', but I can't say 'No, that's overpowered because I SAY SO.' And besides, the point of these rules is that I don't even need to say it. The point is that you go 'Oh, welp, might be a bit overpowered to have 4 pokemon on the field at once. I'd certainly be stronger than most other characters, it violates rule 3! I'd better nerf it, maybe by adding a Rage cost per turn for additional pokemon', and, as such, you yourself only making this suggestion if it seems fair to you. And, like I said also, this would involve all of you really obeying the spirit of the law.

Because I don't have the will or energy to make huge, long paragraphs, or meticulously detailed rules, nor do I want to police this. We'll play this by ear. We'll have to. And, like I said, will trust you to live up to your sides of the deal. Good faith.

Yes, I am going to trust you all with balancing.
...
Y'know, when I think of it that way, this plan seems a lot worse all of a sudden.

Still, would that be acceptable?

Dracorion

08-16-2010, 03:24 PM

I think Menarker's problem is that when you say the rules are solely to be used for balance, you mean your definition of balance. Which he may not believe to be the correct one.

There should probably be a paragraph detailing more or less what goes or what doesn't, in as general terms as possible if you want. Basically, we need some sort of guidelines to follow otherwise you know you're going to be bitching and calling foul play every time someone suggests something, Geminex.

And the guidelines would have to be discussed, obviously.

Geminex

08-16-2010, 03:48 PM

What d'you mean? I've alread detailed repeatedly what standards the rules will invoke, and what their aim will be. Just look at my post history.

And what's this?
There should probably be a paragraph detailing more or less what goes or what doesn't, in as general terms as possible if you want. Basically, we need some sort of guidelines to follow otherwise you know you're going to be bitching and calling foul play every time someone suggests something, Geminex.

And the guidelines would have to be discussed, obviously.
Like I said, I've already posted the 'general detail'. And all I said was that I wouldn't write up really meticulous rules; there's probably gonna be several paragraphs' worth of guidelines, at least! Of course there'll be, I won't just make up some magical fantasy rules and keep you guessing as to what they actually are!
God, man, there's a difference between 'play it by the ear and trust you not to purposefully misinterpret the guidelines' and 'COMPLETE ANARCHY!'. I'm going for the former and hope it doesn't devolve into the latter.

So, to recap, I've already given a general description of what the guidelines will entail; of course they'll be detailed further, what do you take me for; hell, I even mentioned that in the actual deal, did you actually read it?; and also, you smell. And also, just so none of you get pissy, I've again detailed the purpose of these guidelines down there.

Because see, even if these rules weren't detailed I wouldn't bitch or call foul play at every chance! Of course not, I have nothing against people having power! The things I wanna prevent are (are here's pretty much your 'outline'):
- One character becoming stronger than the others character. Sure, let them specialize differently, let them focus on a certain task, be more useful in some situations than in others. But let us, to the best of our ability, ensure that, throughout a mission, and, really, the entire RP, all characters are of equal value in combat. In addition to that, though these are more minor, power growth shouldn't be too sudden, and, more importantly, specialization should be an issue. I've explained it before, but just to recap again: Specialization? Fine. Multiple specialization? Great! One or two changes that suddenly make a character perfectly feasible in a role that he previously wasn't feasible in? Nope.
- A few changes drastically modifying the battle system. Back in the day (meaning, like, discussion 12 or so), I'm sure you all remember the Great Battle Of Psych-Up. I protested so heavily against that because I felt that, the way it was used, it'd change combat really, really strongly. And sure, combat should change. But it should become more, rather than less, 'complex', and it should change gradually, rather than with just a few new strategies, or level-ups.

Now... I do hope tH4T YOU 4R3 S4T1SF13D.

Dracorion

08-16-2010, 03:52 PM

Since I no longer have to read back a thousand post to remember the general details that you posted before?

Yes.

And by the way, I can see a part right there at the end of your first guideline that Menarker's going to want to argue.

Geminex

08-16-2010, 03:58 PM

Look, we've already discussed this. Valiant rush will be acceptable, since
a) it's at least somewhat thematic
and
b) it fits in with Renny's general strategy. It makes sense for him to protect and heal his allies as the battle drags on, and getting more and more dangerous as more allies fall. It's a pretty defensive ability, even if it doesn't involve healing directly.

So that wouldn't fail the specialization test. It's also likely, from my perspective, that it wouldn't change combat drastically, since, like I said, it'd simply expand Renny's defensive role in a creative way. I'm right behind that sort of thing!
The only thing I'm not entirely certain about is the 'power' test, but we'd best see that once the ability actually gets chosen. And hell, we can still nerf or buff it if it turns out to be a bit too strong or too weak. Worst-case, we just subtract or add from/to the rage cost.

...

That is what you meant, right?

Dracorion

08-16-2010, 04:10 PM

Riiiight.

I also like how you say you won't be able to police the rules so you'll have to trust us, yet somehow it seems like you have a lot of time now. And I thought your schedule was only going to get even clearer?

Geminex

08-16-2010, 04:23 PM

Last two weeks: I did a math course
Now, and next four weeks: Vacation with family
Next five years after that: College

And I will probably have even less time during college than I did during the math course. Because I won't just be at college from 8:00 till 4:30 - 6:00 (depending on the day), getting home 45 minutes later, no, I will also have to do what we in Germany like to call 'homework'! And considering this is college, it will be more important that the stuff I used to call homework. So I will actually have to do it!

Mind you, I'll only spend half of every year at uni, the other half'll be spent working as an employee of a certain company which I will not name because I don't trust any of you not to try and track me down. It's part of the program I'm doing, college is especially intense and I have barely any holidays, but I get a salary and I actually get to gather practical experience (and not 'making the coffee' experience either, I'll be studying Electrical Engineering, and from what I've seen so far, what I'll be doing during the pracitcal phases will be just that). Anyway, I don't know whether these practical phases are gonna be more or less time-intensive than what I'll be doing at uni, but I think they're about even. So, with all due respect
I thought your schedule was only going to get even clearer?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHANOOOOOO

Dracorion

08-16-2010, 04:34 PM

Well, gee, thanks for clearing that up.

Ass.

Geminex

08-16-2010, 04:38 PM

Anytime. :3:

Ooh, question. Hey, all. I'm not gonna ask what timezones you're in (though I could probably find out with comparable ease), but could we maybe all just post at what times GMT we're gonna be able to get on, usually?? I'll probabyl be 9 PM to 11 PM.

Dracorion

08-16-2010, 04:48 PM

I have... 5:30 PM to 2:30 AM, with some intermittent breaks in-between.

Menarker

08-16-2010, 06:25 PM

- One character becoming stronger than the others character. Sure, let them specialize differently, let them focus on a certain task, be more useful in some situations than in others. But let us, to the best of our ability, ensure that, throughout a mission, and, really, the entire RP, all characters are of equal value in combat. In addition to that, though these are more minor, power growth shouldn't be too sudden, and, more importantly, specialization should be an issue. I've explained it before, but just to recap again: Specialization? Fine. Multiple specialization? Great! One or two changes that suddenly make a character perfectly feasible in a role that he previously wasn't feasible in? Nope.

And by the way, I can see a part right there at the end of your first guideline that Menarker's going to want to argue.

Look, we've already discussed this. Valiant rush will be acceptable, since
a) it's at least somewhat thematic
and
b) it fits in with Renny's general strategy. It makes sense for him to protect and heal his allies as the battle drags on, and getting more and more dangerous as more allies fall. It's a pretty defensive ability, even if it doesn't involve healing directly.

So that wouldn't fail the specialization test. It's also likely, from my perspective, that it wouldn't change combat drastically, since, like I said, it'd simply expand Renny's defensive role in a creative way. I'm right behind that sort of thing!
The only thing I'm not entirely certain about is the 'power' test, but we'd best see that once the ability actually gets chosen. And hell, we can still nerf or buff it if it turns out to be a bit too strong or too weak. Worst-case, we just subtract or add from/to the rage cost.

...

That is what you meant, right?

Somewhat, if I'm guessing what Drac is implying. It's what I already said before and you discussed a bit.
"One or two changes that suddenly make a character perfectly feasible in a role that he previously wasn't feasible in? Nope. "
Basically, the only cavet I would make about that is that characters who dualclass into something with a different focus can be strong in a role he/she wasn't good at before. However, their effectiveness should not be as effective as someone who has the same class but more levels in it.

Also, we should keep in mind that we should not insist that specialization should be unique, but is ultimately up to the player. Just because Impact and Pierce and Charlotte are leaning toward a certain level of aggressive skills doesn't mean that Renny should be strong-armed into only getting medic related skills just because most of his moves are like that. However the skills should be guided by having a certain pre-resequite classes or its basic power is not arrogantly competing with others, especially those who specialize in that field. Anyhow, redundant specialities can be useful if someone get knocked out or seperated or run out of rage or other such things.

As for Valiant Rush in terms of the power test, it's supposed to be incredibly powerful in a losing situation, but not very effective or rather VERY expensive in a winning situation. >_> And look at this mission! Technically, no one at dipped down to lower than 3 pokemons or stayed knocked out for terribly long. Plus, most of Renny's tactics are already impeding Valiant Rush because the more he protects people or revives/heals them, the further back the effectiveness of Valiant Rush becomes. This tug-a-war between healing and attacking helps prevents it from being terribly broken and thus only supremely and utterly useful if in the rare situation when the battle has shifted to such degree that healing is either impossible or the defeat is inevitiable if the foe is to be left alive for long.

Anyhow, as long as there is a level of discussion within making the guidelines, as you say, playing by ears, I'd be more or less open to it. Hence why I made my third suggestion:

Maybe some sort of leeway involved if character development related things are addressed in advance, so that any percieved character concepts or ability can be worked out smoothly. For example, let's pretend I eventually wanted Renny to be able to send more than 2 pokemons out at a time (maybe taking up slots of other NPC trainers if none of their pokemons are suitable for the situation) as an example of power through friendship, teamwork, numbers and diversity. Let's say that I intend to maximize the potential of such an ability by taking the Snagger class (so I can have a larger size of maximum pokemons I can carry with me and thus a larger diverse pool of elements and techniques to choose from). I would be OUTRAGED if I took the snagger class in antipication of one day getting that ability when I reach the right level, only to have it rejected utterly when proposed and thus making the levels wasted.

We can use moves that we don't intend to get immediately but don't mind being a secret as a mean of balancing, comparing how everyone else is measuring up power level and that sort of thing before the story reaches the point where everyone has invested in too many levels and time and thus has gotten too emotionally invested in what they hope the end result would be. Yes, some of us want to keep moves secret lest it becomes spoilers for what development we got planned for our characters. But if a bunch of us propose some of the moves, or make up a bunch of sample moves, then we can analyze what we think is viable and reasonable while being assured that we're getting to as close as possible to what our desired end result would be like.

Anyhow, I am still not fully statisfied for two reasons.
You also didn't answer my question about whether you/Impact would keep to his promise of helping Renny with Lola and the afforded protection therein... or if that would be null and voided too, which would make that entire thing a negative since you had your chance of being leader which means I did my part with Renny supporting Impact but not getting anything back and thus not holding up your part of the former deal.

Would like an answer for this. Renny supported Impact during his short but eventful reign of attaining leadership which otherwise might not have been possible without Renny and Pierce's support (Both in and out of character). Are you going to keep the promise that we made or am I to expect some other compensation?

The other reason is basically that I want something minimally cool too as a token of good faith. :3
I'm not happy because Charlotte gets to be leader as part of the agreement as well as gradually being promised promotion to what could very well be supreme command of THE brute squad of the sequel when/if Impact goes for world domination, Pierce gets out of the favor he owe Impact AND promised to be the next leader after Charlotte initial leadership run. Matt and I on the other hand get nothing offered to us for the purpose of the deal while still being told to hope that the deal would ultimately be for the good of us all!

My schedule is weird a bit with work and school later on, but I live in Pacific Time-Zone.