Pokemon Umbral Discussion 38: Shenanigans At Dawn, Sir!

[Astral Harmony]

Bringing back our favorite fanservice...

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http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a469/PokemonUmbral/PokemonUmbral30.jpg

I think the best way to make it happen is to reserve it only for PCs who...oh, have five ranks in both Trainer and Slayer. We'll start off from that and work our way to a better suggestion.

Did you twits even read the second sentence? If you don't think it's a good idea, then come up with a better suggestion! Son of a bitch, you guys don't thoroughly read anything I put out, do you?

At any rate, I'm on duty today and hopefully I'll be more or less unsupervised so that I can do Pokemon Umbral related stuff.

[Dracorion]

Hey Drac, if you pay me $5 I'll help you cheat.

Done.

Except no payment until proof of completion.

Did you twits even read the second sentence? If you don't think it's a good idea, then come up with a better suggestion! Son of a bitch, you guys don't thoroughly read anything I put out, do you?

So we did to you what you always do to us?

Anyway, we did read. And if you read thoroughly, you'd know that we asked for clarification.

Anyway, assuming we're right about what we think that change would do, I would propose making it so that it only takes ten ranks in either of the classes that make up the dual-class.

So one could get, say... Trainer level 9 and Slayer level 1 and be able to attack without using Geminex's support system. Or Slayer 8 and Trainer 2, and so on. Basically just ten ranks in either class.

And then I would propose lowering it so it only takes 8 ranks.

[Astral Harmony]

Good. That's a decent suggestion.

I don't know why anyone needed clarification. I figured it was pretty clear what I said right from the get-go. I put things out as clear as I can make it. If I have to elaborate even further than that, then I end up feeling like an ass because I think I'm insulting your intelligence.

[Dracorion]

Why would you ever feel bad about insulting us?

We're not nice people.

[Menarker]

While I was at work, my mind was thinking up Pokemon Umbral related stuff as normal.

First thing that came to mind was my overall confusion about whether Trainer Attacks had given us when we used it or not (I thought it was not since that was what the upgrade page said). Then it struck me... If you guys (Pierce and Charlotte) were getting rage from trainer attacking all this time, then I was never getting rage during those times (since Renny doesn't use Trainer Attack). And if that is the case, then I wonder how/why the hell you guys were ragging on me with Togekiss's rage gathering item since you guys were getting free rage every turn!

On another note, I thought of what Renny's new Trainer Action would be like. I thought of something like this.

Cheerful Back-up: Renny has trained his pokemons to fight effectively in other people's names in their defense, although their spirits remain highest when they fight for him.
Effect: Upon use, when Renny would gain rage for one or both pokemons attacking, that rage can be given to someone else. If neither pokemon does this, Renny gains one additional attack's worth of base rage for himself.

So basically, let's say I have Swampert and Togekiss attack and they both hit their targets. I could have the 5 rage Swampert get goes to the team medic and the 5 rage Togekiss would get could go to Impact or Pierce or so. Or the 10 rage total could go to one person (other than Renny). If no one else is selected for either pokemon, Renny gets 5 free rage. I say "base rage" because that number might rise upon upgrades like Breeder 1. It has utility, but also has a downside that Renny won't get rage from his pokemon attacking if the rage is dedicated to someone else.


Which brings me up to something that came to mind. How will rage generation boosts work from multiple classes? Let's use my my upgrade plan where I plan to go Breeder 1 and Overdrive 3 as an example. (Please try not to be spiteful. I'm being honest and upfront with you.) As a slayer, Renny would gain 10 rage when attacking. When his pokemons attack, he should supposably be getting 7 rage per pokemon if he has Breeder 1. As an Overblade 1, his base rage generation multiplies by 1.5 times. Does this multiplication work for all rage from attacking or being attacked gained by Renny or only for Overblade related rage?
Mind you, once the character becomes a Battle-Master, their rage generation improves because a slayer practically counts as 2 pokemons when he attacks. Let's say the Battle Master using Pierce's system is Trainer 4 and Slayer 4 (no rage generation boost from upgrades). Since he's fighting alongside one other pokemon at least instead of by himself like Impact has done so far, that's an extra 5 rage. 10 for himself and 5 from the pokemon fighting alongside him. If AB intended that we could fight with both pokemons (3 attackers), then that's an extra 10 rage instead, 10 for the pokemons and 10 for the slayer.


Drac's suggestion regarding the dual-classing into "effective" Battle Masters sounds good.


One thing that I do want to bring up and ask about, for the sake of honesty and such is about what I'd hope for pokebrid.

EDIT: I already mentioned before that I was thinking of doing much like what Gem suggested and having Pokebrid and Slayer "blend" power somewhat. Basically, that Renny once he gets slayer and pokebrid would use attacking pokemon moves with proportionally the same power as slayers. Such like Aerial Ace or Knock Off having the same effect as normal but the same power as a slayer weapon. I was/am willing to forgo slayer weapons as a sort of balance as well as a roleplaying quirk, since Renny would probably not want to use weapons... although fighting as a pokemon technically isn't much better... but people use funny logic justifying why some weapons are more or less moral than others!

One thing that people might bring up is that Renny might have more elements to attack with in general since his move list determines the elements he has. Hence why I thought giving up slayer weapons was a bit of a fair trade. I mean, some slayer weapons are incredibly awesome. I mean, 50% freeze chance with the ice weapon? Absurd! Most attacking pokemon moves don't have status effects nearly as powerful as slayer weapons!

[Dracorion]

First thing that came to mind was my overall confusion about whether Trainer Attacks had given us when we used it or not (I thought it was not since that was what the upgrade page said). Then it struck me... If you guys (Pierce and Charlotte) were getting rage from trainer attacking all this time, then I was never getting rage during those times (since Renny doesn't use Trainer Attack). And if that is the case, then I wonder how/why the hell you guys were ragging on me with Togekiss's rage gathering item since you guys were getting free rage every turn!

We can't spam Trainer Attack to get 30 Rage in one turn.

Renny, on the other hand, can have Togekiss use Follow Me. Sure, you'll say Renny would never do that, but it's entirely possibly to come up with some bullshit justification like "oh, Renny doesn't think Togekiss will get knocked out" or "but Togekiss is really really durable" or some shit.

Basically, Menarker =/= Renny.

On another note, I thought of what Renny's new Trainer Action would be like. I thought of something like this.

Cheerful Back-up: Renny has trained his pokemons to fight effectively in other people's names in their defense, although their spirits remain highest when they fight for him.
Effect: Upon use, when Renny would gain rage for one or both pokemons attacking, that rage can be given to someone else. If neither pokemon does this, Renny gains one additional attack's worth of base rage for himself.

So basically, let's say I have Swampert and Togekiss attack and they both hit their targets. I could have the 5 rage Swampert get goes to the team medic and the 5 rage Togekiss would get could go to Impact or Pierce or so. Or the 10 rage total could go to one person (other than Renny). If no one else is selected for either pokemon, Renny gets 5 free rage. I say "base rage" because that number might rise upon upgrades like Breeder 1. It has utility, but also has a downside that Renny won't get rage from his pokemon attacking if the rage is dedicated to someone else.

Oh, I'm going to let someone else tackle this one.

My preliminary opinion is "sure, why not?"

I'm still thinkin' about Pierce's. I dunno, maybe I'll just have Chizuru do something.

Which brings me up to something that came to mind. How will rage generation boosts work from multiple classes? Let's use my my upgrade plan where I plan to go Breeder 1 and Overdrive 3 as an example. (Please try not to be spiteful. I'm being honest and upfront with you.) As a slayer, Renny would gain 10 rage when attacking. When his pokemons attack, he should supposably be getting 7 rage per pokemon if he has Breeder 1. As an Overblade 1, his base rage generation multiplies by 1.5 times. Does this multiplication work for all rage from attacking or being attacked gained by Renny or only for Overblade related rage?
Mind you, once the character becomes a Battle-Master, their rage generation improves because a slayer practically counts as 2 pokemons when he attacks. Let's say the Battle Master using Pierce's system is Trainer 4 and Slayer 4 (no rage generation boost from upgrades). Since he's fighting alongside one other pokemon at least instead of by himself like Impact has done so far, that's an extra 5 rage. 10 for himself and 5 from the pokemon fighting alongside him. If AB intended that we could fight with both pokemons (3 attackers), then that's an extra 10 rage instead, 10 for the pokemons and 10 for the slayer.

I imagine the extra 7 Rage from Breeder would only apply to Pokemon attacks. I don't know if the x1.5 multiplier would apply only to the Overblade, but I'm thinking it should.

Also, Impact gets exclusive access to Full Demonship. He doesn't get to complain.

EDIT: I already mentioned before that I was thinking of doing much like what Gem suggested and having Pokebrid and Slayer "blend" power somewhat. Basically, that Renny once he gets slayer and pokebrid would use attacking pokemon moves with proportionally the same power as slayers. Such like Aerial Ace or Knock Off having the same effect as normal but the same power as a slayer weapon. I was/am willing to forgo slayer weapons as a sort of balance as well as a roleplaying quirk, since Renny would probably not want to use weapons... although fighting as a pokemon technically isn't much better... but people use funny logic justifying why some weapons are more or less moral than others!

One thing that people might bring up is that Renny might have more elements to attack with in general since his move list determines the elements he has. Hence why I thought giving up slayer weapons was a bit of a fair trade. I mean, some slayer weapons are incredibly awesome. I mean, 50% freeze chance with the ice weapon? Absurd! Most attacking pokemon moves don't have status effects nearly as powerful as slayer weapons!

Meh. If Pierce gets a custom Dragon/Ghost Slave, I don't see why Renny can't forgo Slayer weapons for a power boost to his Pokebrid moves.

[Menarker]

Well, Renny doesn't have Togekiss out all the time.
Anyhow, the crux of the realization is that you guys were thinking that the rage that Renny DID get while using the item didn't seem excessive at first glance and that it should be ok to keep observing. Now, we realize that all this time, Pierce and Charlotte were effectively 15+ rage (3 turns worth of trainer attack) ahead of him. So his item effectively only served to break even if not a little more since he himself didn't use Trainer Attack, otherwise, he'd have more rage.

Also, Follow Me doesn't work with Togekiss's item. The item works when the ally is hit. Preventing said ally from getting hit such as with Follow Me doesn't trigger the item. The fact that Renny would get rage from that only stems from the basic rule that the owner of the pokemon that is hit get rage.


Basically, I would see the boost to pokebrid moves being more along the line of...

Renny wants to become stronger so he can help others aside from using his pokemons. However, he feels that his young age and relatively lithe size limits him as a slayer in terms of combat strength. He goes Pokebrid and gets a pokemon form which presumably can fight on its own merit. Then he goes Slayer. He uses the slayers tactics and strength training to boost his pokebrid fighting ability, just as how being a pokebrid gives him the strength to feasibly become strong enough to handle it in the first place. Forgoing weapons naturally means he has to work on using his pokemon's natural form and any hands-on combat techniques that being a Slayer can teach him to boost his ability to fight.

Mind you, I only say forgoing Slayer Weapons. I still intend to use the armors, the accessories and the RDPA.

I asked AB about this before, and he said that was A-OK.



Also, Impact gets exclusive access to Full Demonship. He doesn't get to complain.


Well, I dunno if Dante or Bard wants to attempt to try Full Demonship. However, I won't even touch a single level of Half-Demon, so you can be sure that I won't challenge him.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Do we get rage from trainer attacks? I don't think we should.

I never complained about Togekiss's special item.

As shocking as it may seem, Charlotte probably won't go for any form of Demon classes. Full or otherwise. She will likely continue to take ranks in Breeder and maybe a few in Snagger if applicable. She simply doesn't trust the Demon shit, no matter how appealing it may seem.

[Menarker]

That's what I thought too. I thought and Gem thought that Trainer Attacks weren't supposed to give rage, but Drac said that you and he have been getting rage as if they were normal pokemon attacks.

Anyhow, that's why I'm a slight bit iffy on my new Trainer Action. Normally, all it does is alter who gets the rage that would be given to Renny when his pokemons attacks. However, I added that little bonus of gaining minimal rage if he doesn't give rage to anyone to prevent it from being useless in the off-chance there is no one really worth giving it to in the meantime. (Or if Renny can't spare giving it to anyone else.)

AB said that Breeders and Snaggers don't mesh together. That he wouldn't bother trying to fix it so the two could mix properly in the first place. Kinda a shame. If the snagger class offered something like "get two more pokemons", I'd probably give up Pokemon Breeder 1, so I could recruit Snorlax and Latias to my team. ^^


I do recall you saying you were thinking of going Pokebrid though. Spiritomb being one of the ones you thought of.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Yeah but the Pokebrid thing was meant for the 2nd PC on the botched secondary RP. The concept may be reused on the sidequest, but if Charlotte doesn't trust the Magatam demon thing, she probably wouldn't trust any sort of Pokebrid surgery.

[Menarker]

>_> I would be iffy about anyone whose first choice for pokebrid is to merge with a pokemon that is effectively a slab of stone with 108 souls, (all of them malevolent) for the biggest Dissociative Identity Disorder crisis of the century!

[Bard The 5th LW]

The whole concept behind him was that he would choose to be merged with Pokemon types that would have the most random or dangerous effects on a human.

Actually, 'choose' is a subjective term. The point is that he has some really odd combinations in the name of Science.

[Menarker]

In other word, he's someone unwilling science experiment.

Hehe, How about Missingno? =P

[Bard The 5th LW]

If it existed in Umbral, then that would probably be one of them.

[Menarker]

Hehe. That or the stronger H Glitch.

Anyhow, we REALLY gotten sidetracked. ^^;

Ok, let's assume I go along with Defog duties...

AB: You didn't answer Drac's previous question.
"Hey AB, how exactly would Psyshade Renny's Phantom Blessing work? I mean, would it activate before our attacks this turn, so we wouldn't know who's protected until it's too late, or would it work next turn, so the enemies will be protected then?"

I think that was the reason why none of us decided to talk about battle tactics. ^^:

[Geminex]

Actually, Adrenaline Surges don't stack.
They do, ever since we came up with the whole "reuse accessories for 50 rage" thing. I'm pretty sure AB said so somewhere along the line.

"If anything, you could say that as Renny is growing up, he is hiding behind his pokemons less and less (out of actually having the ability to contribute on his own merits) but still trust them to defend him and his loved ones. And no, I'm not having him go Half-Demon at all. I'll leave that to Pierce/Impact and anyone else."
Yeah. Just... no.
First, that could just as easily be accomplished by going pokebrid, as I assumed you would. Instead, you're going Slayer. So I really don't think that's much of a justification.

And secondly, there's one hell of a difference between "Developing Independence" (which would warrant a few levels, even of Slayer) and "Becoming, Primarily, A Soldier". And seriously, to make that happen plausibly, you'd have to turn Renny's character development around quite a bit. And by "turn" I mean "gratingly wrench" and by "quite a bit" I mean "by a complete 180 degrees". There's just such a major difference between what he's like now, and what a level 3 Overblade should be like.

Mind you, if you can pull it off, sure. Great! If you have plans how to engineer Renny's disillusionment with pokemon, build up his cynicism, make him so much more Brutal that he can go from Purest Form Of Trainer to Heavy Front Line Soldier, excellent!
It'll be refreshing to see him develop that strongly, let go of his pokemon, his Perfect Idealism. It'll be hard, of course, because it'd represent a pretty drastic shift, but if that's your intention, sure. Go ahead. You have my support, I'll do what I can to help.

But see, I don't think that's your intention. I think your intention is to have his development continue going the way it's always been going, with a few changes towards independence and Growing-Up. Changes that wouldn't be utterly insignificant, and that, like I said, would certainly warrant a few levels of pokebrid or even Slayer. But I'm pretty sure that there will be a very significant discrepancy between the amount of development you're gonna bring, and what'd be necessary to justify the fact that, once again, the majority of his levels will be in the class that was originally introduced as the one whose job it is to kill pokemon.

I can't tell you what to do here. But if your intention is to play a believable, fun character, you should probably reallocate some of those levels. Because I think what you're planning to do is less "good role-playing" and more "min-maxing your character and giving character development the finger". And that's bullshit.

Mind you, in the interest of balance that Gem is promoting which I agreed to, you do realize that Demons just means more customization in their abilities and that demonhood doesn't automatically mean that you are improportionally stronger with equal or less ranks than someone who has more ranks as a strictly fighting class. As things stand, Renny would technically be the better fighter 1 on 1 (although you'd have powerful single hitting techniques with that Aura Blade and so).
As for this...
Demonhood pretty much stands for pure and utter customization, here. If Drac decides to go full frontal assaulter with his demon levels then there's a good chance that he'd be as strong as Renny, if not stronger in one-on-one combat (since those demon levels he takes would effectively be "fighting levels"). Impact, on the other hand, would be much more of a tactical supporter, cause that's what I'm doing with my levels. Demonhood levels aren't disproportionately stronger than standard levels, of course. It's just a bit easier to specialize with them.

At this point I'm also gonna recommend that the bonuses for getting Slayer 8 (Overblade 3) get reevaluated. Two attacks per turn does seem a bit wonky. I still maintain that, compared to Trainers, Slayers are just a bit underpowered. But getting two attacks per turn would do more than just overcompensate for that. And since none of the other classes get anything comparable... Maybe try to find another way to finally even the odds?

Anyway, assuming we're right about what we think that change would do, I would propose making it so that it only takes ten ranks in either of the classes that make up the dual-class.

...
What, seriously? I'd be fine with it taking 4 ranks in both classes. But I think that 4 should be the minimum for either class.
And is the support system even still on the table? Cause maybe we could combine some of this.

Cheerful Back-up: Renny has trained his pokemons to fight effectively in other people's names in their defense, although their spirits remain highest when they fight for him.
Effect: Upon use, when Renny would gain rage for one or both pokemons attacking, that rage can be given to someone else. If neither pokemon does this, Renny gains one additional attack's worth of base rage for himself.
This is allright, I guess. Except for that last bit. Why should he gain rage from this? Especially for not using it?
And besides, 5 rage per turn is, I feel, stronger than this is supposed to be. The way I see it, this is supposed to be the ability to get a minor advantage, in exchange for some minor rage. Not give you rage for free. The ability to transfer 5 or even 10 rage to an ally? Sure. Get 5 rage yourself? Eeeeeh. It's what trainer attacks have apparently been doing all along, and which I don't think they should do.

In regards to the Slayer weapons, that might be feasible. Which weapons were you thinking of replacing with which attacks? Cause I think that even if you forsake weapons for attacks, you should be limited to one Slayer-strength attack per element, for a total of... 17 attacks? And of course only have an inventory of 3/6 at any time.

[Menarker]

Regarding Renny's Motivation for Slayer: Being a slayer doesn't mean hating pokemon and it doesn't REQUIRE slaying! Look at all the Battle Masters! Rayleen, Irene, Bretton, Hariette, the Kimonos! And that's not counting the slayers who don't have pokemons but respect them like Kurika or Misha. They all wield pokemons, and most of them moderately if not happily so! Hell, you can see it from how I/Renny intended to forgo slayer weapons that he's adopting a different manner of fighting as a Slayer. A slayer has the tools and the training that ENABLES a person to fight on par with pokemons. It doesn't mean that the mindset is set down into killing and bloodshed. A character class is NOT a restrictive straitjacket in how a character behaves. Keeps that in mind.
And I keep telling you that Renny's idealism is NOT perfect, as I keep pointing back over and over. It's just more forgiving and more optimistic compared to all the other character's philosophies. It already has small shades of jadedness, but it is still easily the most pure of everyone else.

Regarding Demon upgrades: Yes, customization does mean that Drac can go out out offensive if he wanted to and thus be stronger potentially then Renny. But then that would be all that he is for the most part. Plus, Slayer is supposed to be one of the highest single character offense class of the RP normally. If demons take that away by having all the advantages of slayers and little to none of the drawbacks of them, (since you claim that slayers are underpowered) then what purpose do they have? Which ties in with my next comment...

Regarding Slayer's Double Attack: I think you need to clarify why you think slayers are underpowered compared to other classes (or why you think the other classes are overpowered) or why you think Double Attack is too useful. Cause I think it's powerful but not overly so. I think it should stay exactly how it is since it gives a good reason why someone would choose Slayer/Overblade as opposed to going Half/Full Demon like Impact or Drac and choosing a powerful custom offense build as mentioned above. (And make it so Demons can't get that particular upgrade)

Regarding Cheerful Back-Up and Trainer Actions: Well, keep in mind Trainer attacks weren't supposed to give rage in the first place. And they did so as an additional bonus of doing damage to the foe. The proposed technique getting Renny rage would only occur if neither pokemon gives rage to someone else. I mean, they are his pokemon, naturally they are more spirited with him. If they don't support someone else, they'll support him! It wouldn't come with anything else like damage like apparently it was before...

Regarding Pokebrid/Slayer Blending: I think limiting number of attacks is kinda defeating the entire point of pokebrid which includes diversity. I'd be willing to put a further limit that it only works on physical attack based attacks (the attack stat), since Slayer training can't train humans who won't use weapons how to use energy based attacks. Also, you're forgetting that most pokemons DON'T have the ability to attack with all 17 elements (18 with Ruin type which Slayers normally have access to). So there would actually be elements that Renny wouldn't be able to cover without the RDPA armor, another drawback.

[Geminex]

Slayer motivations: Oh, I'm not saying that Slaying requires pokemon hating. Nor am I saying that it has to be a straightjacket. But there's a certain Slayer Mindset that pretty much every Slayer so far has shown, a sort of combination between confidence, arrogance and a constant sort of fight-or-flight reflex. Plus the willingness to kill at a moment's notice. Renny? Really not showing any of that. Mind you, I'm not saying that he's not gonna be able to develop that sort of mindset. But it's not going to become central to his character, as it should.

Demon upgrades: When did we ever say that Slayer should be the strongest offensive class? I don't think it is at the moment, and I certainly don't think that anyone's claimed that it has a future monopoly on offensive strength. Besides, what would demons be taking away? And how would they have "little to no drawbacks"? What the fuck are you talking about?

Back-Up: Again, I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe you can justify it in-character that they should gain rage, but I still think that trainer actions shouldn't be quite that strong. Or Pokebrids and Slayers should get something similar, I'd be on board with that.

Double attack: I'm gonna quote this one, more fun that way.
Regarding Slayer's Double Attack: I think you need to clarify why you think slayers are underpowered compared to other classes (or why you think the other classes are overpowered) or why you think Double Attack is too useful. Cause I think it's powerful but not overly so.
Ok, first, are you actually saying that you don't think Slayers are underpowered and saying in the same breath that Double attack isn't over powered?

I think it should stay exactly how it is since it gives a good reason why someone would choose Slayer/Overblade as opposed to going Half/Full Demon like Impact or Drac and choosing a powerful custom offense build as mentioned above. (And make it so Demons can't get that particular upgrade)
Second... what? Seriously, what? The role of the upgrade system is to reward players for beating challenges, and make our characters stronger, while hopefully keeping their power equal. It is not to make sure no class is neglected by overpowering some classes. What we are trying to do is make sure no class is overpowered. Motivating people to take a certain class does not come into it.
What are you even trying to say? Why does there need to be a "good reason to choose Slayer/Overblade"? There is, already! It's called "personal preference". All the classes are of equal strength (or should be, double attack isn't, which is why it should be eliminated!). Which one you choose depends on the kind of specialization and character development you want. Saying that double attack motivates people to go Slayer is a) stupid (since they should not be motivated to do so by class power!) and b) actually an admission that it's more powerful than it should be, since why else would it be a motivation?

And did you want to actually blend the classes? I thought you just wanted to replace Slayer attacks with Pokemon attacks. I'm not letting you have a full repertoire of Pokebrid attacks at Slayer attack power! Or at least I wouldn't if I could. Decision's not up to me, of course.
But honestly... Drac is getting at least 5 demon (i.e. custom) levels, I'm getting 10 custom levels, apparently you're intent on getting a custom mish-mash of Slayer and pokebrid levels...
I might hate myself for saying this, but...
I have a suggestion to make.
This is what could happen:

1: We finalize all the Balance Regulations (BR) and balance all the classes up to level 5
2: We write up the basic ruleset for the battle system (I'm talking about stuff like actions here. Not entirely necessary, but I want it down on paper. I'll do it if no-one else wants to)
3: We reach level 5
4: Our level progression from 5 onwards... is self-customized. We'll write something up for ourselves. It'll probably take us a while, especially considering that ultimately, the players' power has to be equal, but we'll manage. The stuff that AB wrote up could definitely be used as a template, a source for ideas. And I'm thinking that even while we're customizing, we should assign each level-up a class. So even if Pierce is getting something that's not usually in the Slayer repertoire, if it's Slayer-ish it counts as a Slayer level.
Basically, we use the stuff that AB's already posted as a sort of template, we each write up our own upgrade "schedule", which then gets balanced by everyone else until we're equal (though one the BR are finalized, there shouldn't be too much balancing necessary, since you'll be self-balancing. Hopefully).
Sooo...
What do you think?

If you accept that suggestion, that really makes most of the above points moot...
Though please reply to the Double Attack one. I'd really like to know what the fuck you were thinking.

[Menarker]

Regarding motivation: Well, what you said above is better now, but some characters still "lack" some of what you said or substitute it with other traits. Kurika doesn't seem to have that arrogance and she applied justice and comradeship with it. (She's pretty much the role model of what Renny would be imitating). The willingness to kill so far has less to do with Slayers and more to do with the fact that they are working in PATCA in a situation that has escalated beyond the possibility of feasibly arresting dissident. And Renny doesn't have confidence or fight-flight response as a slayer because he doesn't have levels in one yet! Plus, if he's fighting alongside his pokemons like most Battle Masters, fight-flight response becomes less of a biggie because he has someone he can count on to watch his back.

Regarding Cheerful Backup: Well, if I REALLY have to, I can remove the rage generation. But I thought it would be a suitable way to ensure that it is never useless. As it is, it has utility in the ability to pass on rage that would have been gained through attacking to someone else, especially someone who normally doesn't gain rage fast like a medic. However, in the off-chance that...
A: The situation is desperate enough that Renny can't spare to give away his rage because he needs to power up his support skills.
B: The situation is such that giving away his rage wouldn't help anything. (Everyone's rage is too low to benefit from getting a mere 5 or 10 rage or their technique is wrong for the situation)

In either of those two cases, Renny could opt for a minor gain since it helps out both of those and he isn't doing anything special aside from his pokemons being particularly trained/motivated to help him out.


Regarding Demon Upgrades and their effects on Slayers: I said Slayers is at base one of the strongest "single character" classes. (Solo. Not Pokemon or Snagger). At the very level of design (empowering the one character), it only competes with Demon and possibly Pokebrid for single character strength.

The thing that bugs me about Demon-hood is the possibility that with that customization, they could pick and choose upgrades that effectively belong to Overblades that makes them special while ignoring the ones that the player doesn't want or think is weak. Let's say that someone wanted to build an offense build. They take the Overblade's double attack, the increased rage generation, an immunity to a pokemon type or status, OH and let's say they invented a technique to mimic that of the RDPA's Overdrive among loads of other things. Because of that customization, they effectively min-maxed as their ideal "slayer" (Because they took upgrades which were all mostly Overblade exclusive) without becoming Slayer of that level. The "little to no drawback" is that demonhood allows the player to "min-max" by choosing all the abilities they want to a drastically large extent while ignoring everything they didn't want. Players wanting Double Attack or type immunity pretty much have no choice normally but to accept the other rewards that come with it even if it is not particularly valued by the player. Demon-class seems to promise a shortcut that offers those powers and more.

This issue doesn't apply with Pokemon Trainer or Snagger because Demonhood doesn't grant you new pokemons or help train them. It also doesn't apply with Pokebrid because Demonhood doesn't grant a pokemon's biology and their related skills. It also doesn't seem to apply to low level slayers because just about everything about Slayers comes from equipment like armor, accessories and RDPA. However, the higher level rewards for Overblade are the stuff that CAN be imitated and taken by Demons... and perhaps at a lower level too! Yes, some of the stuff like RDPA and accessories can't be imitated, but that's all the low level stuff. The real reasons to go Overblade can possibly be taken by Demon upgrades, with less investment while at the same time getting other stuff the player wants. From a perspective of balance, what unique reason does Overblade offer to reward a player from spending levels in that class as opposed to taking Demon?

So, if the Demon class can get all the higher level upgrades of Overblade without having to spend 5+ levels of slayer to do so AND get other stuff they'd rather want instead of RDPA or accessories or Sweep, then why does Overblade exist aside from a roleplaying perspective?

Funny how the person who is effectively the biggest min-maxer in the group is not taking a single level of the class that would enable min-maxing to a larger degree?


Regarding "Blending": That's a misnomer. I said blending because of the notion of taking Slayer-ish power and blending it to apply to pokebrid attacks. That said, I kinda wanna keep to the diversity and uniqueness of pokebrids somewhat.

How about this?
1: Unlimited Slayer empowered moves belonging to the respective pokemon's type/s.
2: Unlimited Slayer empowered moves to moves learned by level-up. (Doesn't apply to moves that can only be gained by breeding, tutoring or so)
3: Extra moves for 3 other types (Let's say 3 moves of each). All other element types only get 1 attack.
4: All the moves that fit the above count as Slayer attacks and thus qualify for any upgrades or factors that influence them such as slayer armor STAB bonus and rage generation and anything else Slayer Related.
5: All the above only applies to moves with Attack subtype, not Special Attack. (Status moves don't need buffing anyhow)


Keep in mind that Renny wouldn't have access to some elements until much later, and even then only with the RDPA.

Regarding Double Attack:

Second... what? Seriously, what? The role of the upgrade system is to reward players for beating challenges, and make our characters stronger, while hopefully keeping their power equal. It is not to make sure no class is neglected by overpowering some classes. What we are trying to do is make sure no class is overpowered. Motivating people to take a certain class does not come into it.
What are you even trying to say? Why does there need to be a "good reason to choose Slayer/Overblade"? There is, already! It's called "personal preference". All the classes are of equal strength (or should be, double attack isn't, which is why it should be eliminated!). Which one you choose depends on the kind of specialization and character development you want. Saying that double attack motivates people to go Slayer is a) stupid (since they should not be motivated to do so by class power!) and b) actually an admission that it's more powerful than it should be, since why else would it be a motivation?

The above argument only works so much if the upgrade chart is equal in power. Personal Preferance does have a hand into it, but if a class is weaker or stronger than others, that has an influence into personal preference (see above with potential demon customization problems). Also, powers and abilities are inherent in people's interests in a class. "I want to be this class because it allows me to heal and ressurect people which fits in with my idea of a support guy." "I want this class's double attack because it fits with my lust for power, to bash bad guys in and the rush and thrill of combat!" Later on, branching out has options but so does specialization. So a class's ability that motivates others to take it is natural and ok. What matters is that other classes also have motivating features that make other players consider it "equally" as much as personal preference would allow. "I want to support but also have a chance of kicking butt and taking names in between heals!"

Anyhow...
Let's see what Double Attack offers when compared to a trainer/snagger. Because basically, it seems to me like it's mainly getting unlimited use of an ability an accessory already offers you.

1: Ability to attack a second target. That second target need not be right beside the first like Sweep. Thus an upgrade to Sweep in a way.
2: Ability to attack the same target twice. More focus power.
3: Boost rage generation due to having an extra attack.
4: Extra utility due to Slayer Weapons having more chances of triggering status on more targets.

Very potent ability that comes very late in the upgrade tree and rightly an end-game ability (For those who didn't start as Slayer, they won't get it until 12th level at the earliest and that's assuming the character goes Slayer as soon as they are able, which is not true in Renny's case who might not get Double Attack until level 14.)

If we compare this to other classes...
Pokemon Trainers/Snaggers have all these already due to Pokemon classes practically being designed to deal with multiple foes. They can attack a second target regardless of where. (1) They can attack the same target twice. (2) Their status moves can inflict status (4). Rage generation is not quite as potent offensively, but because of their numbers, they can gather more rage when being attacked because there are more slots to recieve the damage from.

Basically, Pokemon trainers and Snaggers is what you get when you have Double Attack, but not the power of a Slayer. They are Slayers in reverse order! When a trainer gains levels, their pokemons grow more powerful getting closer to that of a Slayer. Slayers gain double attack as they level which makes them closer to a Trainer's ability to fend off multiple foes.
But the pokemon trainers also have numbers on their side which helps with defense. Slayers play by themselves for the most part. Although their higher stats help out, statuses still causes problems (until later) where pokemons can usually be switched out.

Now, let's check out the other upgrades alongside it! Listed in order in which you get them.

Slayers/Overblade:
6 Items slots. (Start)
Always have normal type armor and attack. (Start)
3 armors and weapons types. (Start)
Increased Power (2)
Accessories (2)
Ruin type armor and weapon (3)
Sweep Ability (3)
Three more weapons (4)
Increased STAB on armors. (4)
RDPA. (5)
Overdrive *Part of RDPA* (5)
Improved Rage Generation (6)
Overpower *Status Cure* (6)
Stat gain (7)
Immunity to a physical Status affliction (7)
Stat gain (8)
Double Attack (8)
Immunity to one of nine offered pokemon types (8)
Increased RDPA time (9)
Immunity to a mental Status affliction (9)
Stat gain (10)
Improved Rage Generation (10)
Immunity to one of any pokemon element type (10)


Pokemon Trainer/Breeder/:
3 Items belt (Start)
4 Pokemons (Start)
One of the pokemons Leader tagged (Start)
Legendary Pokemons can use Testament Drive (Start)
Fifth Pokemon (2)
Focus Skill (2)
Leader Tag on another pokemon (3)
Trainer Action (3)
Divide (3)
Sixth Pokemon (4)
2 Custom Items (4)
One pokemon becomes Veteran/Xth stage tagged. (5)
Custom Move on a pokemon (5)
Improved Rage Generation (6)
1 Custom Item (6)
1st Ability Shift (6)
Defend Ability (7)
2nd pokemon becomes Veteran/Xth stage tagged. (7)
Another Custom item (8)
2nd Ability Shift (8)
3rd pokemon becomes Veteran/Xth stage tagged. (9)
An additional action granted for the purpose of using items only (9)
Improved Rage Generation (10)
3rd Ability Shift (10)


ALRIGHT, now let's see how much they got in common and if anything stands out...

1: They both have diversity in attacking and defensive elements as well as immunities to some pokemon types or statuses. Overblade are more diverse/custom with immunities and more resistances. Breeders get advantage of numbers which can be revived during combat. Slayers are reliant on others to revive them if they get knocked out. ^^;
2: Overdrives and Breeders both get improved Rage generation at level 6 and 10.
3: They both get an extra action of sort. Slayers get Double Attack, while Breeders get "Quicken Item". (I'd propose moving this down to upgrade 8 or lower so it's at the same level or lower as Double Attack. Maybe increase Item storage by 3 items too to make it more worthwhile.)
4: Breeders get more strength faster than Overblades do. (Level 5 and 7 for Veteran/Xth Staged pokemon as opposed to Overblades at level 8 for Double Attack and stat gains at 7, 8 and 10.) Pokemon Custom Items or Ability Shifts will likely contribute to their strength boost too.
5: Both have "rage sinks". Slayers have Sweep, Overpower and the accessories. Trainers have Divide, Focus, Defend and Testament Drive.


As far as I see it, I think that things are more or less balanced as they are, minor changes I suggested aside. Slayers


I didn't include Demons or Devas because...
A: Demons are fully custom and it's feasiable they might try to get Double Attack too if they reach the respective level for it.
B: I find it hard to compare it with Devas, because Devas not only specialize in single class diversity as opposed to power, but they are also incredibly rage hungry and I feel Devas could use lots of buffing up in the first place. Devas can spam Sync Techs when under a paradigm shift which COULD be godly, but the circumstances under which they can do so is very limited.

Also didn't list Snaggers because it doesn't combine well with Trainer which almost everyone is, and the ones who don't have it probably don't want it. Similar to trainer anyhow.

Now that I think about it, I should talk a bit more about Devas... Dante could use some boosting!

1: They don't have the number advantage of trainers.
2: They don't have all the armors of Slayers. Heck, they got weaknesses unless they pay rage.
3: Their special techs cost rage which can only be activated once they are in a special stage which... *SHOCK* also costs rage too.
4: They only attack once normally since they don't have numbers, they don't have double attack, and their only means of spamming techniques require so much rage and attention, it's not practical.
5: Yes, they got diversity but only when they can shift forms which brings a new set of weaknesses and strengths. That diversity needs to come with power and it should come much easier than it currently does (probably should be easier than for other classes too).

This class is sadly the red-headed stepchild, right next to Snagger... which might have been good if it didn't start off by having less pokemons than trainers first and then working up so they had more later on, giving false impressions.

AB: One question that seemed odd to me. The PCs are all humans. Doesn't that mean that technically Slayers have a weakpoint to fire and poison too like the other humans we fought so far? Or does being trained in slayer mean that they worked out that particular weakpoint and made it neutral through endurance?

Also, forgive me for forgetting, but what sort of damage does Ruin type attacks do on Ruin type pokemons. Like if the Ruin element was selected as an attack type with the RDPA and said slayer attacked a Ruin type. Is it not effective like with fire against fire? Super effective like Dragon against Dragon? No damage? Quad Damage? Neutral like Fighting against Fighting?

Also, can you provide a sample Overdrive technique so we can see what the power level of that should be like? Because the implication of a name like "Overdrive" sounds incredibly potent, especially since it can only be used one time per battle.




ANYHOW, I'm finally done! God, that took so long.
Anyhow, I apologize if I said something odd here. I'm tired. Anyhow, looking forward to what you guys think.

Overall though, it looks promising, since we got a nice mix of classes. Demons (Half and Full), an Overblade, and Breeders (Especially if Charlotte wants to focus on that). I think Devas could use some buffing up though. But overall, we got a nice mix.

[DanteFalcon]

Really when it comes to devas I can see where it might be underpowered. However I think it largely depends on the way its built. As a pokebrid, pre-deva Slayers tend to kind of one us up with raw damage and stats and trainers easily have us in durability. I honestly find (and part of the reason 2 of Matthias's forms aren't the strongest) that the purpose of a pokebrid/deva in a team is as you said versatility. Really right now two of his three forms can change their element for the battle at hand. Their stronger at shutting down particular enemy combos and always having an answer for a situation as opposed to the other classes. Snagger kinda overlaps them in that manner.

However!

I honestly see our biggest weakness in our versatility. Yes I have an inhumanly huge move pool. A very large number of those attacks are nigh on useless. Seriously. I have very little purpose to use psybeam when I have psychic. Or tackle. or probably 60% of my moves because they become invalidated by the moves that the pokemon gets later in levels.

[Menarker]

I still say you deserve a buff in terms of how you gain rage or attack. :3

[DanteFalcon]

I won't complain if one happens to come my way

[Menarker]

Well, I honestly think you need it.

1) Multiple aspects of your class require rage. Paradigm Shifts cost 60 rage and then there are Sync Techs which REQUIRE you to be in Paradigm shift in the first place to activate. You need a whopping 100 rage in order to do any of your sync techs in the same turn that you activate a technique. And that's before stuff like Divide and Focus. Some changes are required to make this less of a hurdle.

2) You don't have any manner of gaining rage fast. You only attack once, and not as powerfully as a Slayer (and with less resistance and you even have weaknesses). You are by yourself so every attack that hits you is usually a big concern. You only can carry 3 items (if I recall correct), so it's not like you can spam Rage Rockets if you want to carry healing items.

3) Yes, you can shift into different forms, so you got a bit of diversity, but that's part of the problem. Basically, only one of those forms are helping you at any time in combat. When you're using any one form, the others are sitting there uselessly while the form you ARE using is less effective than if you were a slayer or even two pokemons sometimes. Multiform transformation classes works best when you are effective in almost everything but stand out with one or two particular strengths and one or two particular weakness/defiency.


What I propose!

1) Change Paradigm Shift so it costs 20 rage each use and you start with three uses, instead of you having to pay the 60 rage up front when you just want to use one turn's worth to cast a technique. That'll make the rage cost to you more mangagable (Thus the Deva 4 upgrade of making Paradigm shift last 5 turns instead gives you 2 extra uses.) Also allow rage gain to be possible when attacking or being attacked. (Level 1)

2) Increased Item storage so you can carry more Rage rockets or healing items. (Level 2-3 upgrade?)

3) Pokebrids can equip pokemon items much like real pokemons can. Let's allow a custom item for you at level 4 (now) or 5 if you intend to go Pokebrid next level too. You can probably come up with an item that gives you rage or helps protect you or alter your moves to something damn useful.

4) Change Sync Techs so you don't NEED to be in Paradigm shift to use it, but that it gains an immense boost of some sort if you are in them, like an additional valuable effect or just plain more power. I'd be iffy about lowering costs because I still think spamming techniques should really should only be done in more ideal situations. With the above changes, you could enter Paradigm Shift and cast two Sync Tech if you had the maximum of 100 rage.

5) Maybe an extra action specifically for status moves like buffing or status ailments or something like that at higher levels. (Kinda like a Double Attack, but not quite) Of course, I'd suggest that Protect/Detect be left out of the picture. Otherwise, you could feasibly cast Protect every turn or two while still being able to attack.


What you guys think?

[Dracorion]

AB, I propose that we ban Menarker and Geminex from interacting directly ever again.

Anyway, my response to your guys' little clusterfuck, and a couple of questions for AB and Geminex, will come soon, when I have time to sit down and write a proper post.

[Menarker]

:( Awww, but I thought we were having a rather civilized conversation.

Or is it just that the two of us write so damn much?

[Dracorion]

Yeah, you bastard.

In thirty-seven threads of insanity that we've gone through, this is the first time I've had to struggle to catch up.

You made me stop and reread!



...
What, seriously? I'd be fine with it taking 4 ranks in both classes. But I think that 4 should be the minimum for either class.
And is the support system even still on the table? Cause maybe we could combine some of this.

Oh come on!

I mean, I get where you're coming from. You think that Battle Masters and such should only be able to show off their mastery of both classes by fighting at the same time as my pokemon only when they've advanced enough in both.

BUT! I think that it should be less a matter of expertise and more experience. Basically, the Battle Master should be able to fight at the same time as their pokemon once they've spent enough time getting used to both classes, regardless of how much they've advanced in either. Which would be when they have eight ranks in either one.

About Demonshippynessing: Menarker, I'm fairly certain we would shut each other down so hard if we tried to get all the best upgrades of any given class with no drawbacks in our Demon upgrades. That fact is so set in stone that no one would think about trying it.

About Slayer motivation: Actually, Pierce doesn't have a fight-or-flight response. Or if he does, he's pretty much always stuck in "fight". When the going gets tough, he gets tougher, y'know? This will lessen a bit after his sidequest. But let's face it, there's no way to beat the defiance out of him.

And you already know he has about as much intent to kill as a bowl of wet grapes.

I might hate myself for saying this, but...
I have a suggestion to make.
This is what could happen:

1: We finalize all the Balance Regulations (BR) and balance all the classes up to level 5
2: We write up the basic ruleset for the battle system (I'm talking about stuff like actions here. Not entirely necessary, but I want it down on paper. I'll do it if no-one else wants to)
3: We reach level 5
4: Our level progression from 5 onwards... is self-customized. We'll write something up for ourselves. It'll probably take us a while, especially considering that ultimately, the players' power has to be equal, but we'll manage. The stuff that AB wrote up could definitely be used as a template, a source for ideas. And I'm thinking that even while we're customizing, we should assign each level-up a class. So even if Pierce is getting something that's not usually in the Slayer repertoire, if it's Slayer-ish it counts as a Slayer level.
Basically, we use the stuff that AB's already posted as a sort of template, we each write up our own upgrade "schedule", which then gets balanced by everyone else until we're equal (though one the BR are finalized, there shouldn't be too much balancing necessary, since you'll be self-balancing. Hopefully).
Sooo...
What do you think?

Absolutely not.

If we each get to customize our own advanced classes, Menarker is going to min-max his shit so hard, and AB will aprove it, and then we will have to go through this little trainwreck between the two of you again and I won't have it.

What I propose is that we should finish all the Balance Regulations. Then someone writes up some changes to the advanced classes, based on the current ones. We discuss them, reach a unanimous decision (or a majority vote), and those are the upgrades that go for everyone.

I'll start:

Right, so, I thought about the changes I would make to the upgrades for every class, following Geminex's suggestion for only changing the advanced classes (except for Pokebrid, because I agree with Menarker that they could use a little buff).

Overblade (Level 3)

- All stats gain 15 points.
- Overblades can use Sweep on any two targets, not necessarily adjacent to one another.
- Overblades gain an immunity to one of the following Pokemon types (Bug, Dark, Fighting, Flying, Grass, Ground, Normal, Rock, Steel)

Basically, instead of Double Attack I'm proposing Overblades get to use Sweep on any two targets. I worry, however, that this is too much of a nerf, since Double Attack would mean getting Rage from the extra attack, and Sweep produces no Rage. Also, Double Attack means the Overblade could attack the same target twice.

So maybe we can do something like, I dunno, reduce the Rage cost for Sweep and Focus in one of the Overblade upgrades?

Pokemon Breeder (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated goes from 5 to 7.
- Can create a new custom hold item.
- Breeders can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for one of their leader pokemon.

-----
Pokemon Breeder (Level 3)

- Can create a new custom hold item.
- Breeders can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for their second leader pokemon.

-----
Pokemon Breeder (Level 5)

- Base Rage generated goes from 7 to 10.
- 2nd custom move availability.

Basically, the problem with Ability Shift is that the ability the pokemon would get would either be overpowered and not thematic, or thematic and useless (except for the rare cases where a pokemon would actually benefit from a different ability).

So I'm proposing that we let Breeders give a second ability to one of their leader pokemon (like how Pokemercs get three abilities at once). And then for the second upgrade of this they'd be able to choose a second ability for their other leader pokemon (not the one that already got the last upgrade). This ability would have to be proposed by the person who wants it and discussed between all of us PCs until we all agree that it would not be overpowered.

The other side of that particular upgrade is that Breeders would have the choice of giving one of their leader pokemon a second hold item instead. I came up with this when Geminex and I were exchanging PMs over the usual subject, y'know, plotting Renny's murder, and I thought "hey, why isn't there an upgrade for this?". The Breeder could choose to give their other leader pokemon (the one that didn't get the first upgrade) a second hold item slot for the second upgrade.

And for Breeder level 5, I decided to give them a second custom move in exchange for the 3rd Ability Shift.

Pokebrid (Level 1)

- Can use any and all moves of the chosen Pokemon form.
- Can use Paradigm Shift (transform into that Pokemon). Costs 20 RP and lasts until the end of the turn it is used. Can only be used three times per battle. Type weaknesses no longer apply while Paradigm Shifted and Pokemon statistics are added to inherent statistics for a stat boost during those turns.

-----
Pokebrid (Level 5)

- Pokeform types have status and statistic defenses depending on the type they are. A Poison type Pokemon is immune to Poison and Bad Poison status effects, for example. The best way to know what does what is to look at the special defenses of Slayer armor.
- 1st custom hold item availability.

-----
Deva (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated is increased by 1.5 times.
- 2nd custom hold item availability.

-----
Deva (Level 4)

- Paradigm Shift can now be used five times.
- Devas become immune to the types of moves that their current form is.

Basically, Menarker's suggestion for Paradigm Shifts. Except for that one where the Deva would get an extra action. I took that one away from Overblades, too.

Discuss.

Pokemon Tuner (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated goes from 5 to 7.
- Tuners can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for one of their leader pokemon.

-----
Pokemon Tuner (Level 3)

- Can create a new custom hold item.
- Snagballs can now inflict Instant Death now.
- Tuners can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for their second leader pokemon.

-----
Pokemon Tuner (Level 5)

- Base Rage generated goes from 7 to 10.
- Snagballs can now inflict Apathy and Exhaustion.
- Tuners can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for one of their pokemon.

Basically the same deal that Breeders got, except for the last upgrade Tuners can choose a second ability or a second hold item for any of their pokemon, because I kinda feel they got shafted when it came to upgrades.



Oh, and AB, about Trainer Actions... I dunno, did you actually intend for Trainers to have access to more than one Trainer Action? Because I kinda got that impression. Then one turn we could choose to, I dunno, give small buff to our pokemon and the other turn we could use a regular old Trainer Attack. Then the next we could buff one of our pokemon's attack.

Of course, you probably just wanted to limit it to one. It makes sense that way too.

[Menarker]

Well, I'm happy enough with the proposed changes to Breeder. Except, does the ability or item limit have to apply only to my Leaders? Because I was hoping that I could use Ability Shift on my Swampert or my Shaymin... Unless you want my Mollesk to have yet another ability or be able to hold yet another item. >_> I'd doubt you'd want that.

I think Pokebrid could still use the extra items, similar to that of a Slayer at level 1.

Basically, instead of Double Attack I'm proposing Overblades get to use Sweep on any two targets. I worry, however, that this is too much of a nerf, since Double Attack would mean getting Rage from the extra attack, and Sweep produces no Rage. Also, Double Attack means the Overblade could attack the same target twice.

So maybe we can do something like, I dunno, reduce the Rage cost for Sweep and Focus in one of the Overblade upgrades?

First of all, they don't have focus. Breeders have that.

Second of all, the class is pretty rage hungry, with accessories costing 50 to reuse, hence why I thought to leave it in...

Hey, maybe reduce the cost of reusing accessories to like 25 or so? That way those wanting to use the double attack accessory can still do so (at a reduced cost) and that gets rid of the "gaining rage" factor from the second attack. It could also boost the other accessories in the process, leading to a bit more customization, based on which accessories people like.

Although reducing the cost of Sweep would be a nice addition too indeed.

And you guys plottin' my murder makes me sad. *Tear*

[Dracorion]

Well, I'm happy enough with the proposed changes to Breeder. Except, does the ability or item limit have to apply only to my Leaders? Because I was hoping that I could use Ability Shift on my Swampert or my Shaymin... Unless you want my Mollesk to have yet another ability or be able to hold yet another item. >_> I'd doubt you'd want that.

That was one thing I wasn't sure about.

On the one hand, limiting that kind of upgrade just to leaders seemed prudent. On the other, leader pokemon already get six moves 'n shit.

I dunno, I'll wait for Geminex to give his opinion.

I think Pokebrid could still use the extra items, similar to that of a Slayer at level 1.

Oh, right. I meant to add that but I forgot.

First of all, they don't have focus. Breeders have that.

My bad. I dunno, for some reason I thought Slayers had some equivalent to focus. I forgot that they don't actually have multi-target attacks.

Second of all, the class is pretty rage hungry, with accessories costing 50 to reuse, hence why I thought to leave it in...

Hey, maybe reduce the cost of reusing accessories to like 25 or so? That way those wanting to use the double attack accessory can still do so (at a reduced cost) and that gets rid of the "gaining rage" factor from the second attack. It could also boost the other accessories in the process, leading to a bit more customization, based on which accessories people like.

Maybe not 25. I'd say more like 30 or 35.

[Menarker]

It's already a huge nerf as is, going from gaining having a free attack every turn that gains you 15 rage (or 20 if Overblade is maxed) to actually having to have the accessory and spending 25 rage to use it and not being able to use it every turn unless you have rage to burn.

[Dracorion]

Point.

But Double Attack was already pretty overpowered. Making accessories cost 35 Rage might not be that big a leap if Double Attack was already way off the balanced end of the spectrum.

If we do make them cost 25 Rage, I would probably put it as a separate upgrade anywhere from Overblade 1 to 3.

[Menarker]

I beg your pardon? I didn't grasp that. Seperate upgrade from what exactly?

Let's say that I did agree to make it a seperate upgrade for 25 rage... What would the end result be like?

And how exactly would you perceive a Overblade's power compared to a Breeder of equal level before and after the nerf? Because the idea of 2 Xth Stage or Veterans pokemons attacking at the same time strikes me as pretty damn powerful in its own right, easily rivaling Slayers before taking Focus or even Divide (maybe twice!) for a possible 4 attacks or two empowered attacks. (Which could easily be focused on the same target)

[Geminex]

Oh good lord what the hell is this crap.
If we devoted all this time to actually doing something productive, like, say, taking over the world, we'd at the very least be in charge of Africa and a few parts of Asia by now. I mean dammit, guys.
...
Anyway, back to what I do best...

So, if the Demon class can get all the higher level upgrades of Overblade without having to spend 5+ levels of slayer to do so AND get other stuff they'd rather want instead of RDPA or accessories or Sweep, then why does Overblade exist aside from a roleplaying perspective?

Well, from what I've observed so far, the higher your level in a certain class gets, the better your upgrades are. More or less. Since you only get demon after level 5, you'd need to invest all of the levels you get after 5 (all of them) into demon to get the good stuff. That sorta makes up for the customization aspect, even if, I think, the power increases that come later are fairly minor (since, after all, equal power.)

If we each get to customize our own advanced classes, Menarker is going to min-max his shit so hard, and AB will aprove it, and then we will have to go through this little trainwreck between the two of you again and I won't have it.

Ok, what if Menarker promises not to do that? Menarker, in the interest of ending this discussion, will you promise not to do that? Or would you agree to a clause in the Regulations that says if you do that, everyone else gets to go medieval on your ass?

The rest of the stuff...
Eeeh.
While there should be some stuff done in regards to the pokebrids, (though probably different from what you're suggesting, that just seems rather awkward) and I like the idea of making Slayers more accessory-focused, I feel that a lot of the other discussion could be avoided if we just finish discussing the "total customization" point. And agree on it.

And just a preview of what my stance will be if that gets thrown out the window: Second hold items: Extremely iffy. I'm sure there's another way to solve Drac's dilemma.

Ability shift: I made a suggestion for that before, whereby trainers picked a pool of 3-5 abilities that're thematic and about equal in power, and then got to switch between those for a minor rage cost (maybe depending on the strength of the ability?) whenever it suited them. I'm not sure whether this was gonna be just for leaders or for every pokemon. I'd say, if it's limited to leaders, the ability pool is 5, if everyone gets it, it's limited to 3. What d'you guys think of that?

Battle Masters deploying both pokemon: Again, eeeh. I'd reallly have to think about it. It is rather strong, after all. Hell, you could take a few levels in trainer, 8 in Slayer and go out into the field with the equivalent of 6 pokemon attacks! If we decided to self-customize, this'd probably be the "ultimate upgrade", the really strong one you get near the very end.

Edit:
And how are xth stage pokemon so powerful? I thought they just got a minor stats boost and a slightly stronger ability.

[Dracorion]

I beg your pardon? I didn't grasp that. Seperate upgrade from what exactly?

Erm...

I mean, just lump it inside one of the upgrades.

Let's say that I did agree to make it a seperate upgrade for 25 rage... What would the end result be like?

Basically? Once a Slayer reaches level 2 they have to pay 50 Rage to reuse accessories. Once they reach level 1-3, the cost gets reduced to 25.

And how exactly would you perceive a Overblade's power compared to a Breeder of equal level before and after the nerf? Because the idea of 2 Xth Stage or Veterans pokemons attacking at the same time strikes me as pretty damn powerful in its own right, easily rivaling Slayers before taking Focus or even Divide (maybe twice!) for a possible 4 attacks or two empowered attacks. (Which could easily be focused on the same target)

Compared to an Overblade with Double Attack?

Let's see... If Overblades get 20 Rage per attack, that's 40 Rage in one turn. As opposed to a Breeder, who would have to pay 25 Rage just to replicate the effect an Overblade would get for free.

Raw damage? Yeah, two Xth-level pokemon using Focus could do more damage than an Overblade using Double Attack.


EDIT: Well look who decided to wake up.

Oh good lord what the hell is this crap.
If we devoted all this time to actually doing something productive, like, say, taking over the world, we'd at the very least be in charge of Africa and a few parts of Asia by now. I mean dammit, guys.
...

Conquering the world doesn't feel nearly as rewarding as being proven right in an internet argument.

Hence: why we're here.

The rest of the stuff...
Eeeh.
While there should be some stuff done in regards to the pokebrids, (though probably different from what you're suggesting, that just seems rather awkward) and I like the idea of making Slayers more accessory-focused, I feel that a lot of the other discussion could be avoided if we just finish discussing the "total customization" point. And agree on it.

Be nice if you could give us some suggestions on Pokebrids.

I mean, level 6 is right around the corner! If we're going to go the total customization route, we need to give slowpokes like Dante and Bard time to come up with their shit.

And just a preview of what my stance will be if that gets thrown out the window: Second hold items: Extremely iffy. I'm sure there's another way to solve Drac's dilemma.

For what it's worth, while it did come as a result of me thinking about my dilemma, I would've proposed it even if I wasn't in a dilemma. I mean, it seems like kind of an obvious thing.

Ability shift: I made a suggestion for that before, whereby trainers picked a pool of 3-5 abilities that're thematic and about equal in power, and then got to switch between those for a minor rage cost (maybe depending on the strength of the ability?) whenever it suited them. I'm not sure whether this was gonna be just for leaders or for every pokemon. I'd say, if it's limited to leaders, the ability pool is 5, if everyone gets it, it's limited to 3. What d'you guys think of that?

Meh, same problem with current ability shift: the abilities would be useless.

With my suggestion, we'd get to pick one that compliments a pokemon's exisiting ability, even if the secondary ability is by itself completely worthless.

Battle Masters deploying both pokemon: Again, eeeh. I'd reallly have to think about it. It is rather strong, after all. Hell, you could take a few levels in trainer, 8 in Slayer and go out into the field with the equivalent of 6 pokemon attacks! If we decided to self-customize, this'd probably be the "ultimate upgrade", the really strong one you get near the very end.

Okay, yeah, I'm fairly certain PC Battle Masters would only get two combatants.

And if they don't I insist that we make it so.

[Geminex]

Raw damage? Yeah, two Xth-level pokemon using Focus could do more damage than an Overblade using Double Attack.
Oh come on. The Slayer's gonna have at least 1.5 times the attack stat of the x-th levels. He's gonna have stronger attacks (cause of better weapons and stab), better status effects (50% friggin' chance!), and he's gonna get more rage for those attacks. If the x-th levels both use focus, the damage they deal might be equal, but then the discrepancy between rage received by the two is even greater, since the trainers are spending, the Slayers are just raking it in. Honestly, it's nowhere near balanced, by any standards.

Edit: Oh, wait. You said that bit with the rage. Nevermind then. ^^

[Menarker]

Well, Gem, part of the thing is that this upgrade chart was created by AB to make the process easier for him to keep in mind who has which ability. Customization process sounds all fun and such, but that really should be run through by him, because free-range customization is hell for a GM.

As for my part, I'm seriously trying hard to stay within the rules while still being competitive. I'm keeping very much to the standard that AB set with few deviations, and even then I'm trying to be open with negotiations even more since I agreed to the deal you hoped out of everyone.

Also, several of the NPCs are battle masters and they don't seem to be all really high level. I can hardly imagine justifying denying Battle Master class until the very end. Mid-range, sure. But utter end-game? Not so much.

[Geminex]

Well, Gem, part of the thing is that this upgrade chart was created by AB to make the process easier for him to keep in mind who has which ability. Customization process sounds all fun and such, but that really should be run through by him, because free-range customization is hell for a GM.
Hence the deal I made. Free-range customization shouldn't be too much of a problem, since none of us would be asshole enough to break the tems of that deal and try to abuse it.

As for my part, I'm seriously trying hard to stay within the rules while still being competitive. I'm keeping very much to the standard that AB set with few deviations, and even then I'm trying to be open with negotiations even more since I agreed to the deal you hoped out of everyone.
The bit I bolded. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU BEING COMPETITIVE? WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE STRONGER THAN US? THERE IS NO MOTHERFUCKING POINT! THE ENEMIES' POWER SCALES WITH OURS! THE ONLY THING YOU'RE ACCOMPLISHING IS INCREASING YOUR CHARACTER'S RELATIVE STRENGTH TO OUR CHARACTERS, MEANING RELATIVE TO YOU, YOU'RE WEAKENING OUR CHARACTERS. AND HOWEVERMUCH YOU WANT TO FEEL IMPORTANT AND IN THE CENTRE OF ATTENTION, THAT ISN'T JUSTIFIED. SO STOP WASTING MY TIME, STOP SCREWING THIS RP OVER BY WANTING TO BE THE MOST IMPORTANT, STOP TRYING TO BREAK THE SYSTEM, STOP TRYING TO BE THE STRONGEST AND JUST FUCKING TRY TO HAVE FUN.

Seriously, gah.

[Menarker]

I'm not saying I want to be more powerful than everyone else. Just powerful, period. We all want to be powerful to an extent. I want others to be powerful too, hence one of the reasons why I advocated that Pokebrids get a overall boost for Dante's sake since they were built pretty sub-par. Drac's Love Tech seemed quite overly powerful sometimes and my Support Techs are incredibly valuable but that doesn't really take away from the game. Mind you, I'm trying to work within the game and within the agreement to respect other people's power levels even though that currently means that the class I was hoping to go into is getting nerfed. But I'm not going to willingly sell my character short of power he earns or let him go far below other characters. Yes, I'm agreeing to try to work things out for balance, but being interested in the mechanics is part of the key to maintaining interest in the game.

[Geminex]

Ok, once again and not in caps this time: There is no "short of power" in this RP. Our enemies' strength depends on ours. It is a dependent variable. The only independent variables are the strengths of the other characters. When you make your character stronger, you are not making him better at combat, because his enemies will become stronger as well. The only thing you are doing is making him stronger than his allies.

Mind you, if this were a competitive RP, things would be different. I'd be acknowledging your attempts as more or less fair. I'd be probably doing a lot of that myself. But see, we're not competitive. Not supposed to be, anyway. But you are. You're competing against, harming, your allies. By weakening them.

We all want to be powerful to an extent, of course. But "power growth" only serves as a reward for completing missions, and to give the battle system a bit more depth, a bit more tactical structure. And while sure, it's fine to want to grow stronger relative to the past, if we conciously attempt to be stronger than our teammates, we're harming them. And that is, like I said, bullshit. I'm not sure if you understood this before, or even understand it now, but it's been the entire reason I've been having these fucking debates with you. And as you can maybe tell, I'm sick of it.

So once again, stop it. Stop it please. Stop it or else. Just stop it. Cause what has to be way more important than make-believe power is actual fun. And this? This hasn't been fun for the last 15 discussion threads.

[Dracorion]

You two better not be starting this up again.

I swear to God, if I have to read through eight long-assed gigantic bullshit posts I will cut you.

[Krylo]

Someone doesn't understand Mern very well.

I've seen the guy try to min-max free-form RPGs. It seems to be what he considers fun. He's probably the guy who sets his primary skills in Oblivion to Lock picking, Repair, etc. so that he can go about and get JUST enough skill gains in everything else to max out his stat gains at level up so that he's stronger in the long haul. He's probably the guy who grinds up all of his units in FFT to Samurai to get blade grasp and then boosts their brave to 100 to get nigh-immunity to physical attacks, and then drops their faith as close to 0 for nigh-immunity to magical ones (except that black mage he has with maxed out calculator for its secondary skill). And instead of finding it annoying, he enjoys it because he knows he's breaking the system.

What I'm trying to say here is that I am like 900% sure that a large part of the enjoyment that Mern gets out of any given RP system is figuring out and working the system like a cheap taiwanese whore, so telling him to stop working the system and have fun is kind of like telling someone to gouge out their ear drums and enjoy the damn music.

ANYWAY, I'm not in this RP so I'll let you people have your fun. I just found telling Mern to stop min-maxing and have fun hilarious.

[Dracorion]

Oh shit, people!

Scatter!

[Geminex]

Did we just get a Krylo cameo?

...

Ok, who ELSE lurks in this RP?

And thing is, he gains nothing from working the system. His enemies grow stronger proportionally to him, the only units who don't are his allies. And this is discussion thread 38 (that's 3800 posts, about half of which stem from discussions between me and him), I do understand how he works. I'm just hoping I have at least a limited ability to tell him what to do. Hell, I've made him agree to a few constraints already. This is more of an ideological argument if anything.

[Menarker]

Well, I saw Steel Shadow lurking here this morning. ^^;

[Krylo]

Hey, there's usually trainer tits in the first post and your bickering is kind of amusing sometimes.

[Geminex]

Oh good lord. Is that...
Is that us, now? Menarker, Dracorion, Geminex, Bard: "Those guys who argue about pokemon and supply the forums with soft porn"?

HEY! YOU! ALL OF YOU!
I!
REGRET!
NOTHING!

EDIT: ALSO, YOU ALL SMELL! AND YOUR MOMMA'S FAT.
Thanks, Drac.

[Dracorion]

I regret not insulting the readers more often.

I mean seriously, who gets their jollies from softcore pokeporn and five losers bickering pointlessly about Pokemon who has the biggest penis? (I do.)

Oh man seriously Gem, you need to start using Impact font all the time. Forget about the harm it'll do to us, think about the harm it'll do to those lurking sons of bitches.

[Krylo]

People who are really bored and pissed off at March of the Black Queen because goddamnit that asshole snuck past my defenses because I thought he was going to zig and he zagged, and fucked up two of my liberated cities and destroyed my carefully cultivated rep in one turn and arrrrgh!

Edit: And my mother is fat, but she has health issues and has been trying to lose weight, you insensitive lout.

[Dracorion]

Maybe you just suck at March of the Black Queen life in general.

It's okay though! You just have to practice really hard! really, it'll be better for all of us if you just run a red light and taunt the cop till he shoots you.

[Geminex]

I mean seriously, who gets their jollies from softcore pokeporn and five losers bickering pointlessly about Pokemon who has the biggest penis? (I do.)

Well, Krylo apparently. And Steel Shadow.

Y'know, we could always put on a show for them.

Ooh, Drac. You're so impudent. My anger with you knows no bounds.
With Bard standing alongside me, your resistance is futile. It would be a far better choice to...
yield.

And then I threw up.

Ok, but seriously, I propose that we rename the threads from "Pokemon Umbral Disucission #xx" to "Umbral Theatre #xx". Just because.

Edit:
because goddamnit that asshole snuck past my defenses because I thought he was going to zig and he zagged, and fucked up two of my liberated cities and destroyed my carefully cultivated rep in one turn and arrrrgh!
Totally wouldn't have happened to me.

[Krylo]

=[

/wrists

[Dracorion]

It appears we've become...
*puts on sunglasses*
... the butt of all the jokes.

*slow motion walk away, EXPLOSIONS*



I don't know why I did that.

Anyway, the last thing I want is to have to fail utterly at everything, Gem! Sometimes, I want to actually get something done by annoying someone into doing it for me!

[Menarker]

Wasn't Fifthfiend also one of the audience way back in discussion 12 or so? Pretended to ask to join and claimed he had "concept arts" and all that ready for us?

Hehe, quite a while ago.

Makes you wonder who else read our stuff.

[Dracorion]

To be fair, that could just have been Fifthfiend being Fifthfiend.

[Geminex]

Yah. I really wasn't sure if he was just trolling of if he was just trolling HARDER.
I think it was both.

Anyway, this intermission's over, let's get back to business.
And by business, I mean pokemon.

Menarker, what say you?

[Dracorion]

SCREW YOU GUYS, I'M TAKING MY TOYS AND GOING HOME.

[Menarker]

>_> What the heck do you mean "what say me"? I said that it's really up to AB if he would allow such a system in the first place before I say yay or nay. It was then you got up in my grill about competiveness and then all Krylo broke the fourth wall and everything trolled down to hell!

We're still waiting for AB to respond to multiple questions, least of all being the question asked twice regarding Psy-Renny's Phantom Blessing Protection thing so we can proceed with the RP itself.

[Astral Harmony]

About Cheerful Backup: I don't have any issue with this.

About Renny's Pokebrid Attack Buffs: It's a workable idea, I suppose. I can't for the life of me find a reason to make an issue of it, whether you forsake Slayer weapons or not. 'Cause if you're Pokebrid attacks increase in power just because you don't use Slayer weapons and thus become comparable in power to the Slayer weapons you forsook (SP?), then why have Slayer weapons at all?

About Trainer Attack Rage Generation: There is no Rage generated for Trainer Attacks.

AB: You didn't answer Drac's previous question.
"Hey AB, how exactly would Psyshade Renny's Phantom Blessing work? I mean, would it activate before our attacks this turn, so we wouldn't know who's protected until it's too late, or would it work next turn, so the enemies will be protected then?"

Actually, I did answer this question...mostly by wondering out loud who the hell came up with the idea of Phantom Blessing. Because I did not, and I do not intend to use it. More than likely, Psyshade Renny would sooner use its own version of Valiant Rush.

At this point I'm also gonna recommend that the bonuses for getting Slayer 8 (Overblade 3) get reevaluated. Two attacks per turn does seem a bit wonky. I still maintain that, compared to Trainers, Slayers are just a bit underpowered. But getting two attacks per turn would do more than just overcompensate for that. And since none of the other classes get anything comparable... Maybe try to find another way to finally even the odds?

I have an idea. Not exactly the perfect solution, but I think it hits the mark damn close. I'll explain it at the end of the rest of the questions.

AB: One question that seemed odd to me. The PCs are all humans. Doesn't that mean that technically Slayers have a weakpoint to fire and poison too like the other humans we fought so far? Or does being trained in slayer mean that they worked out that particular weakpoint and made it neutral through endurance?

Also, forgive me for forgetting, but what sort of damage does Ruin type attacks do on Ruin type pokemons. Like if the Ruin element was selected as an attack type with the RDPA and said slayer attacked a Ruin type. Is it not effective like with fire against fire? Super effective like Dragon against Dragon? No damage? Quad Damage? Neutral like Fighting against Fighting?

Also, can you provide a sample Overdrive technique so we can see what the power level of that should be like? Because the implication of a name like "Overdrive" sounds incredibly potent, especially since it can only be used one time per battle.

Humans characters on the Watchman side don't fall prey to Fire and Poison like enemy humans.

Ruin type damage does x1 damage to other Ruin types.

I'd say, put on the spot like I am, that it'd be somewhere from 1.5x that of a Testament Drive to maybe even 2x. And it doesn't actually have to be offensive. Not even the Testament Drives have to be. Actually, let me get my thinking straight and, at the bottom of this, I'll explain in detail everything I've been thinking about on duty.

AB, I propose that we ban Menarker and Geminex from interacting directly ever again.

Can't do that. So long as they're brainstorming for the betterment of everything else, RP including, and are not at each other's throats with thread-long arguements about balance (which seem to always include you as well, Dracorian), I have open ears (well, eyes) to the words they have to type.

I just wished they didn't type so much.

Oh, and AB, about Trainer Actions... I dunno, did you actually intend for Trainers to have access to more than one Trainer Action? Because I kinda got that impression. Then one turn we could choose to, I dunno, give small buff to our pokemon and the other turn we could use a regular old Trainer Attack. Then the next we could buff one of our pokemon's attack.

Of course, you probably just wanted to limit it to one. It makes sense that way too.

Actually, if you feel like it, go ahead and create up to five of them. And remember, if you feel that Pierce himself wouldn't be able to accomplish these Trainer Actions in-character, you can always involve the love interest, yours being Chizuru, of course.

-----

If I missed questions, I'm sorry. I know I missed some orange shit from Geminex. And probably some other questions that slipped through my speed-reading episode to catch up.

Anyways, while I was on duty, I had an idea that would afford us some balance, hopefully.

Ability Points.

That's right. Y'see, I've been playing Arc Rise Fantasia for the past several days (not a terrible RP, but the voice acting is shit) and I thought about that AP system they've got. Granted, I'm not going to do something wacky like make everyone share the same AP pool, but I will make it so that you all have your own AP meters.

Here's how I'm thinking it's going to work, and if it's a good idea, I'd like to implement it starting with Pierce's sidequest:

1. Each character has a maximum of 10 AP. Each character generates...oh, 6 AP every turn. Following me so far, everyone?

2. Now, various actions will cost AP. I'll imagine up a list right now that will be at the bottom of this post for reviews and suggestions. We're flowing, right?

3. So long as you have the AP to use an action, you can use it during your phase or right after the enemy's phase.

I think that's about it. Here, lemme do a list:

- Begin Watchmen Phase (standard morale): +6 AP
- Begin Watchmen Phase (low morale): +6 AP
- Begin Watchmen Phase (Overwhelming Tide): +4 AP
- Slayer / Pokebrid Attack: -4 AP (both in and out of RDPA and Paradigm Shift modes respectively)
- Pokemon Move: -3 AP
- Use an Item: -2 AP (Medics max out at 2 items per turn and everyone else at 1 item per turn)
- Rapid Deployable Powered Suit Summon: -6 AP (once per battle)
- Paradigm Shift: -8 AP (once per Paradigm Shift)
- Signature / Synchronicity Technique: -8 AP
- RDPA Overdrive: 0 AP (once per battle and only in RDPA)
- Love Technique: -4 AP for Both Characters (cannot divide it up like Rage.)
- Engineer Construction: -4 AP
- Exhaustion Status: Cuts AP Generation at start of turn by 3 AP.
- Paralysis Status: Cuts AP Generation at start of turn by 3 AP.
- AP Generated for Units in PC Support (your Enforcers) Per Turn: +2 AP (they still start the battle with the 6 AP, they just generate it slower when in the rearguard, same as you when you switch out to the rearguard)

By the way, I should mention that this doesn't replace the Rage system. Rage is still there.

That's all I can think of right at this moment. Things that affect attacks, like Divide and Focus, do not require additional AP to use.

I don't want to create an item or allow for the creation of skills or SignTechs or whatever that increase AP generation or make it not deplete when you use actions, so let's not suggest anything like that until we've gotten the system together and test-driven it.

Destroyer Specialists like Lexhur are not in any way affected by the AP system. Their Rage is pretty much their AP, to be honest.

And that's my wacky idea. Let's get some constructive criticism. I haven't reviewed all the class ideas you guys have scattered across this thread. I intend to do so tonight when I also post the possibly insulting sprite comic (I need to edit a few expressions, nothing more).

EDIT 1: Right, I said something strange about Testament Drives before, didn't I? I was thinking of letting you, the PCs, recreate them to your liking. I mean, they're your Legendary Pokemon. Their Testament Drives should reflect your personality, I'd say. So I'd like to let you guys create your own Testament Drives for your own Legendary Pokemon, especially the ones you've created.

[Menarker]

Ah, kinda like Xenosaga a bit, the proposed AP system.

Anyhow, I'll check it out in more detail in a bit. Late here.

[Geminex]

That... huh.
It's interesting. But see, I think there's one fairly large flaw.

That sort of AP-based system works fairly well, from experience. It's versatile, and emphasizes quick, tactical actions, which get progressively more frequent more than heavy, powerful strategic stuff. It has good potential for fun, I might even prefer it to our current system!

But see...
What we're playing right now, hinges on pokemon. It's getting progressively further removed from it, but it still hinges on it. And pokemon wasn't designed to work with this system.
It'd be possible, of course!
But it'd involve so much rethinking, so much rearranging, so much balancing. We'd have to more or less rewrite and rebalance the entire rulebook, it seems. Assigning an AP cost to every possible action, balancing those, rooting out all the pokemon attacks that'd break the system, balancing those...

I dunno, maybe I'm being pessimistic. But I feel it might not be such a good idea, here and now.

Though mind you, if we do decide to go through with it, I'd recommend that we really go for broke and add a Tactical Combat System. I've been thinking that we could totally treat this like a tabletop combat RPG, and include terrain and ranges in our battles.

[Astral Harmony]

I thought about it, but my head hurt at the prospect of terrain and elevation and moving people around on a grid. I guess it's asking for the impossible, but I kind of want a system that's quick, easy to fall right into despite not understanding it completely, and subject to change without coming out with a brand new rulebook.

Half my kingdom for a genie to grant that wish...and for her to be hot, slutty, a foxgirl, and willing to grant a different kind of wish.

[Geminex]

You have a kingdom?

And I don't think it'd be too bad. I can calculate the vectors in my head, all we need to do is consider what distance an individual can move for every AP, that'd be fine. We can divide attacks into melee and ranged, nerf the ranged ones a little, and plop a hill down every now and then. Bam. Terrain system.
That's, like I said, not the problem.
The big problem I see is that, with AP, we'd have to rearrange and rethink so much stuff.

And I don't think that's possible to get much simpler at this level. Compared to other RPs, we're still pretty simple, even with the system we're using now. AP wouldn't necessarily improve that.

[Astral Harmony]

Well, regardless of my thoughts, it's time to post what you've waited too long for. This time, I didn't include those little things that indicate who said what. You can pretty much tell who said what lines in each panel, considering how simple my comics tend to be.

All I can ask is...please don't kill my face.

http://a.imageshack.us/img836/1500/anticsintheagency2thepc.png

You'll have to forgive me, Dante. I didn't have a whole lot of appearance data on your character and I discovered that I have no talent for spriting Venomoth wings.

[Geminex]

Can you rehost that, please? I'm in China, and apparently they don't allow imageshack here. You have photobucket, right?

Edit:
Also, have you read the bit where I suggested that we could all customize our own upgrades from level 5 on?

[Dracorion]

Can't do that. So long as they're brainstorming for the betterment of everything else, RP including, and are not at each other's throats with thread-long arguements about balance (which seem to always include you as well, Dracorian), I have open ears (well, eyes) to the words they have to type.

I just wished they didn't type so much.

Hey, you know me.

I never miss an opportunity to troll those two.

Actually, if you feel like it, go ahead and create up to five of them. And remember, if you feel that Pierce himself wouldn't be able to accomplish these Trainer Actions in-character, you can always involve the love interest, yours being Chizuru, of course.

I will not have Chizuru blow Tyranitar.
I will not have Chizuru blow Tyranitar.
I will not have Chizuru blow Tyranitar.
I will not have Chizuru blow Tyranitar.
I will not have Chizuru blow Tyranitar.
I will not have Chizuru blow Tyranitar.


...
Ahem-hem.

-----

If I missed questions, I'm sorry. I know I missed some orange shit from Geminex. And probably some other questions that slipped through my speed-reading episode to catch up.

Oh, Geminex was only proposing balancing the upgrades up to level 5 for every class, and then suggested that all of us PCs get to customize our own advanced classes.

Yeah, I know.

Half my kingdom for a genie to grant that wish...and for her to be hot, slutty, a foxgirl, and willing to grant a different kind of wish.

You're going to invite Teal into the RP?

sprite comic

A) Pierce totally would've asked AB for more bitches instead of more RP posts. Fortunately, the two are related enough for it to count as part of the running gag. B) Impact was, like, three steps away. I would've made up something like "yeah, I wish Impact would shut up too" or something, even if what AB said before that was completely unrelated, just so Impact could hear it.

[Geminex]

WOW, I SUUURE AM GLAD NOBODY REHOSTED THAT COMIC. I'D TOTALLY HATE, TO Y'KNOW, BE ABLE TO READ IT OR ANYTHING. MAN, THANKS GUYS.

Who's teal?

And what do you mean "yeah, I know". You and Menarker are busily doing the former without my participation, and I can handle the latter as long as Menarker plays fair (which he's sort of assured me he will).

[Dracorion]

WOW, I SUUURE AM GLAD NOBODY REHOSTED THAT COMIC. I'D TOTALLY HATE, TO Y'KNOW, BE ABLE TO READ IT OR ANYTHING. MAN, THANKS GUYS.

FINE DUDE HERE IT IS. (http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/fjgca17/anticsintheagency2thepc.png)

BLOW IT OUT YOUR ASS.

WHAT, IT'S TOO SMALL? ASK ME IF I GIVE A RAT'S ASS. GO BITCH AT PHOTOBUCKET.

Who's teal?

Teal Mage.

It was pretty obvious dude, way to fail.

Anyway, we wouldn't even have to catch him up! I know for a fact he's one of the assholes lurking this RP.

And what do you mean "yeah, I know". You and Menarker are busily doing the former without my participation, and I can handle the latter as long as Menarker plays fair (which he's sort of assured me he will).

If you don't get it I'm not allowed to tell you.

[DanteFalcon]

Ok I laughed. That was pretty awesome.

[Menarker]

Well, I'm up again now.

As for the AP system, my major "grief" with it is that it doesn't work well at all with techniques that don't have a set cost (IE: All of Renny's moves which grows more powerful incrementally). It also doesn't help that not all of our techniques are equal in power/cost, so the costs wouldn't be so simple that we could set them in stone.

So while I appreciate that it was a decent idea, I'd probably not support it the way it is now.

Also, if for some reason, we DID use the AP system, we'd probably be best using a max AP of 20 and changing the costs and gains (More AP per turn), which would make it easier to intergrate it with our current rage system. Since rage tends to be given in set of 5, it would make for easier conversion if we pretended that every block of AP is 5 rage, which would make us end up with the conversion of 100 Rage.

Hehe, ^^ Renny looks appropriate in the sprite comic, although I admit I didn't think he'd actually be portrayed as THAT single minded. :3


EDIT: Oh, I just realized I missed this part. Still tired a bit...

By the way, I should mention that this doesn't replace the Rage system. Rage is still there.

I wonder what role rage will play then and what AP will replace...

[Dracorion]

Question: what's to stop a Battle Master or just a Trainer from spending 9 AP for three pokemon attacks? Three pokemon attacks would, I think, be more powerful than two Slayer attacks. And then you'd at least have 1 extra RP to start with, than if you, say, used one Slayer attack and two pokemon attacks.

Basically? Would make Slayers useless.

[Menarker]

I was under the impression that
1) The same pokemon can't attack twice per turn?
2) That we could only send out 2 pokemons normally in the first place in a combat situation.

[Dracorion]

Sure, that's how it used to be.

Except with the AP system, I don't see any reason why Slayers or Pokebrids couldn't attack twice, or Trainers could attack three times. They still have to decide whether they want to use their AP to attack or if they want to use a Love Tech or a Signature Technique or an item and shit.

In fact, the only actions in the system that specify how many times they can be used are items, Paradigm Shift, RPDAs and Overdrives.

[Menarker]

Testament Drive doesn't seem to have been given an AP cost. Or is that meant to be rage specific?

I'd imagine we'd all get the "Stall Action" so we can opt to save our AP for the next turn.

So I imagine that the new purpose of rage is to enhance or alter how the actions paid for by AP activates? Let's say that I activate Serene Blessing. I wouldn't need to pay the initial cost because that's part of the AP now, but rage can be used to extend the Protect effect to other people. Or if Impact attacks, he has to pay the cost of 25 rage as well to convert that basic attack into a sweep. Am I grasping this correctly AB?

Although technically, Serene Blessing is currently incompatible with the AP system since it also allows the trainer to attack as normal, basically making it a free action.


Although that's going to be tricky to do with Valiant Rush, which part of the entire purpose is to be flexible to the point that if the situation is TRULY DESPERATE, it could even feasibly be paid for free.
However, I guess there will be time to fix that, since I don't plan to get that move until late game anyhow.

[Dracorion]

About Testament Drives, AB. Maybe you should post some sort of guidelines about them? Otherwise, we're just giving trainers 50 Rage Signature Techniques, as many as they have Legendaries.

Anyway. Pierce's Trainer Actions. I want to get you guys' approval before I put them in orange for AB.


Combined Attack: Pick one of Pierce's pokemon from the field. That pokemon's attack move gains the same type as Pierce's other pokemon's primary type, but the power stays the same.

Okay, this one's crappily worded. Basically, say Tyranitar and Blaziken are out. Tyranitar uses Earthquake and Pierce uses Combined Attack. Tyranitar's Earthquake is now Ground/Fire, and the move's power stays the same.

Create Opening: One of Pierce's pokemon can attack one more time, at 50% power.

Five-Star Deluxe Special: Chizuru cooks up a meal for both of Pierce's pokemon on the field. A small regenerative effect is applied to them.

Trainer Attack: Pierce attacks alongside one of his pokemon. That pokemon's attack has 2x chance of being inflicted with the status associated to Pierce's weapon.

Basically, since Pierce's weapons are the Dragon Slave and the Phantom Staff, one pokemon's attack would either have a 100% chance to decrease the target's Special Defense by -1, or a 50% chance of instant death.

Remember Your Training! Both of Pierce's pokemon on the field gain +1 Attack and Special Attack.

Thoughts?

[Menarker]

The problems I'm kinda having with most of these are that most of them are strong enough to be pokemon attacks when I was under the impression that they were supposed to be not quite that powerful. It would especially help if you didn't have all five of them.

I know AB said trainers could have 5 of these, but I think it was meant to be like a point system where you could make up to 5 techniques, but you have to allot points between them so it all balances out.
For example, let's say you had 30 points to divide among. You could max out and have one technique but really strong. (30 points) 5 weak techniques (6 points each), 3 decent techniques (10 points each) a powerful one and a weak one (a 25 and a 5 point)... that sort of thing.


Combined Attack: I'd imagine there would be lots of confusion and arguments over how it would work. If a flying type would be attacked by your proposed example, is it immune because the attack is part ground? And the biggest thing is? There is an easier way to implement the effect you want. Basically, you want to enable the fire typing onto Tyranitar's move while using Tyranitar's stats instead of Blaziken's stats and presumably keep STAB because it is part ground, right?
If that is the case, basically just say:
1) The main attacker attack gets divided into two like Double Hit (dividing power in half respectively for each hit).
2) The first hit being the type of the move the attacking pokemon (Tyranitar in this case) uses. The second hit being the primary type of the second pokemon (Blaziken in this case). Thus, the first hit would be ground and the second one would be fire with your example.
3) The total base power is equal to the move that it is based on.
4) All bonuses such as STAB that apply to the first hit also apply to the second even if it wouldn't normally. Both hits use the attack or special attack stat of the main attacker. (Technically, Tyranitar is a rock/dark type so no STAB with your previous example.)

Is that within reason of what you were hoping to do? If so, I would approve of this since it's basically a conversion of element types. We can all pretend it is one hit if you want, but just proposing something that is easier to work the math out of.


Create Opening: I'm rejecting it, because that's basically a free Helping Hand with more diversity, an extra chance of proccing any special effects the move being used has and that's before considering that that second move could be a status move like Protect or WilloWisp or something that doesn't rely on power.


Five Star Deluxe Special: Honestly seems weak. Regeneration effects like Leftovers are kinda like the old Trainer Attacks where it was difficult to see the effect (so small it is almost non-existant) being useful in this environment with tons of attackers and the likihood of being ganged up on. I wouldn't reject it, but I would advise you to think of something a bit stronger, although I can understand that's tricky to do...


Trainer Attack: Even Slayer weapons didn't have that much chance of proccing the special effects. It was 50% chance of lowering Special Defense and 25% chance of Instant Death. This technically is better than Slayer's weapons, which means it's too strong in my view. Yes, Pierce's attack power isn't that high compared to a Slayer, but Instant Death would make that moot in the first place and with guaranteed debuff, other PCs or pokemons would rush to make short work of the foe. Rejected.


Remember Your Training: Basically an attack version of Cosmic Power that doesn't require an action or a move slot. In a heavy attacking setting as this one, this also sets off alarms of sort. AB's example for Charlotte used the risky Crit stat, damaged her pokemon a tiny bit and only lasted for the turn.

I thought trainer actions are supposed to be very minor effects. Stuff like minor buffs that only last for that turn or a simple conversion, or a desireable boost that only has significant effect over several turns.

[Astral Harmony]

Understood. No AP system. Now that I got enough sleep, I figure it wouldn't really help us anymore than what we've already got.

This afternoon, I'll go through this thread and look at all the suggestions for the various classes.

To finish this post off, if I'm going to let you customize the advanced classes, you might as well customize your own demon classes as well.

But. BUT!! Let me create the demon classes first. That way we all have a guideline where he can alter them while keeping the same general level of power intact.

Anyways, I've gotta get to work soon. I may be able to post one more time, but don't count on it for now.

[Dracorion]

The problems I'm kinda having with most of these are that most of them are strong enough to be pokemon attacks when I was under the impression that they were supposed to be not quite that powerful. It would especially help if you didn't have all five of them.

Okay, clearly I went overboard. I was trying to aim for something different from just pure damage.

Combined Attack: I'd imagine there would be lots of confusion and arguments over how it would work. If a flying type would be attacked by your proposed example, is it immune because the attack is part ground? And the biggest thing is? There is an easier way to implement the effect you want. Basically, you want to enable the fire typing onto Tyranitar's move while using Tyranitar's stats instead of Blaziken's stats and presumably keep STAB because it is part ground, right?
If that is the case, basically just say:
1) The main attacker attack gets divided into two like Double Hit (dividing power in half respectively for each hit).
2) The first hit being the type of the move the attacking pokemon (Tyranitar in this case) uses. The second hit being the primary type of the second pokemon (Blaziken in this case). Thus, the first hit would be ground and the second one would be fire with your example.
3) The total base power is equal to the move that it is based on.
4) All bonuses such as STAB that apply to the first hit also apply to the second even if it wouldn't normally. Both hits use the attack or special attack stat of the main attacker. (Technically, Tyranitar is a rock/dark type so no STAB with your previous example.)

Is that within reason of what you were hoping to do? If so, I would approve of this since it's basically a conversion of element types. We can all pretend it is one hit if you want, but just proposing something that is easier to work the math out of.

Yeah, that works best.

Create Opening: I'm rejecting it, because that's basically a free Helping Hand with more diversity, an extra chance of proccing any special effects the move being used has and that's before considering that that second move could be a status move like Protect or WilloWisp or something that doesn't rely on power.

Crap, I totally forgot about Helping Hand. I suppose I could make it 25%, but that would make it useless, wouldn't it?

Maybe I'll just scrap this one.

Five Star Deluxe Special: Honestly seems weak. Regeneration effects like Leftovers are kinda like the old Trainer Attacks where it was difficult to see the effect (so small it is almost non-existant) being useful in this environment with tons of attackers and the likihood of being ganged up on. I wouldn't reject it, but I would advise you to think of something a bit stronger, although I can understand that's tricky to do...

Buff the regeneration or add status removal/immunity/resistance, do you think?

Trainer Attack: Even Slayer weapons didn't have that much chance of proccing the special effects. It was 50% chance of lowering Special Defense and 25% chance of Instant Death. This technically is better than Slayer's weapons, which means it's too strong in my view. Yes, Pierce's attack power isn't that high compared to a Slayer, but Instant Death would make that moot in the first place and with guaranteed debuff, other PCs or pokemons would rush to make short work of the foe. Rejected.

Actually, Pierce's attack power wouldn't influence the damage at all.

But yeah, I see your point, that isn't saying much. How about if instead it's a normal pokemon move with the same chance to cause one of the statuses, depending on the weapon Pierce uses?

Remember Your Training: Basically an attack version of Cosmic Power that doesn't require an action or a move slot. In a heavy attacking setting as this one, this also sets off alarms of sort. AB's example for Charlotte used the risky Crit stat, damaged her pokemon a tiny bit and only lasted for the turn.

Crap, I forgot to mention when I proposed it: it's only supposed to take effect on the turn it's used.

Does that help a bit?

Though, it occurs to me that for those purposes a straight up damage buff would be simpler.

Understood. No AP system. Now that I got enough sleep, I figure it wouldn't really help us anymore than what we've already got.

Sleep is for the weak!

To finish this post off, if I'm going to let you customize the advanced classes, you might as well customize your own demon classes as well.

Cool!

But. BUT!! Let me create the demon classes first. That way we all have a guideline where he can alter them while keeping the same general level of power intact.

I'M SORRY I DIDN'T HEAR YOU OVER MY WILDLY OVERPOWERED DEMON UPGRADES FOR PIERCE OH WOW THIS STUFF IS SO BROKEN IT PHYSICALLY HURTS.

[Menarker]

Regarding Combined Attack: Glad you approve.

Regarding Create Opening: Yeah, might wanna scrap it.

Regarding Five Star Deluxe: I'd suggest that you choose a single pokemon for that turn and the food nourishes and motivates it so well, it gains the "Filter" ability until the end of turn. (Filter reduces the damage of Super Effective moves by a quarter) It's strong, it's impossible to exploit since all you're doing is mitigating a bad situation (still worse than being hit with neutral attacks), and it may or may not come in handy since the pokemons might be hit with not-effective or neutral attacks or not even attacked at all.

Regarding Trainer Attack: How exactly? Pierce is not a pokemon and I didn't think that the weapons he wields could create a pokemon attack either. And how would you choose the pokemon moves or is there even a list to choose from?

Regarding Remember Your Training: This one I would want to hear Gem's opinion. With Cosmic power, the hard part was that we are in an situation where attacking is king and I only could use it to great effect because I piled it on top of a pokemon with already absurd defense AND have the Simple ability on it. This one actually contributes to attacking. Also, if you recall the Stat modifier charts...

"x1.5, x2.0, x2.5, x3.0, x3.5, and x4.0."

That means your ability is basically a free Helping Hand for BOTH of your pokemons.

So yeah, it might be simpler to do a straight up damage buff or something.

[Astral Harmony]

Sleep is important. It makes both you and all my other headaches go away.

This afternoon I'm going to focus on all the suggestions made in this thread, whether you guys have actually gotten a plan for the RP ready or not. I'll consider everything that's been posted as far as modifying classes and may even have time to do the demon classes for Impact, Pierce, and Sophia. I dunno, depends on what anime I'm watching at the time.

...Maybe Bo-Bobo.

[Menarker]

Right...

Any thoughts for tactics for the RP? I'd probably suggest we get rid of Psy Pierce (Null Turn ability would be a pain) and Psy Renny (Valiant Rush would hurt a lot, especially since we are close to getting them to a lower morale rating.)

Renny on Defog duty with both his pokemons.
Rachel giving rage as normal I think.
Wilhelmina with Dark Bullet on a psychic target
Irene attacks a different Psytarget (PsyImpact?) with Grimslay for Super Effective Ghost damage and 50% base chance of Instant Death. (Doubled to 100% due to Super Effectiveness?) Her Sceptile and Ryhperior use X-Scissor and Megahorn respectively to help attack the Psy-Pierce and Renny.
Melanie uses "Un" (Dark Type Slayer attack) for Super Effective damage. Base 50% chance of flinching which might be 100% flinch due to Super Effectiveness?
Harriette's Vespiquen and Wormadam use Attack Order and Bug Bite (both bug moves) on whichever psychic targets.
Moon's Vaporeon uses Helping Hand on someone. His Lanturn uses Signal Beam, a bug move on a psychic target.
Lexhur uses Drill Gore for strong dark type damage on a target?
Charlotte uses Arceus (Poison typed due to Toxic Plate) and his Poison typed Judgement on one of them Asuras to knock it out with Super Effective Damage. If Buck is available, use him for fire attacks on another of them Asuras.
Matt can either use Venomoth's form for STAB with a bug move (risky due to poison typing) or use some sort of powerful special attack move with Porygon Z. Dark, Ghost or Bug if possible.
Pierce has Tyranitar use Crunch (Dark) on a psychic type and Blaziken use a fire type on an Asura for super effective damage on both?
Dunno what weapons Impact has or if he'd rather use CC&C...
Harriette does Desperado to do four powerful randomly aimed typeless attacks (Hopefully there are fewer targets since she attacks last, so there is less chance of a bad random attack).

So effectively 11 attacks super effective against psychic types (A few with status conditions like Instant Death perhaps), 3 attacks effective against Asuras, a helping hand, Rage Rockets, Defog duties, 4 random damage and whatever Impact does.

What you guys think of this extremely rough draft?


AB: ... Is this a typo? What does the ability Inspiration do? Or did you mean Antipication?
4. Wormadam [Plant Cloak] (Bug/Plant) [Female]
Moves: Leaf Storm / Psychic / Bug Bite / Giga Drain
Ability: Inspiration



EDIT: Hey guys, remember a little while back when I started that entire TVtropes traits among PATCA members?

I found the two that basically sets apart Renny and Impact

Renny as "The Fettered" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFettered)

Impact as "The Unfettered" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheUnfettered)


Pretty much sums things up a bit. ^^

[Dracorion]

Regarding Five Star Deluxe: I'd suggest that you choose a single pokemon for that turn and the food nourishes and motivates it so well, it gains the "Filter" ability until the end of turn. (Filter reduces the damage of Super Effective moves by a quarter) It's strong, it's impossible to exploit since all you're doing is mitigating a bad situation (still worse than being hit with neutral attacks), and it may or may not come in handy since the pokemons might be hit with not-effective or neutral attacks or not even attacked at all.

Meh, don't like it.

I'm thinking I'll make it A) regenerate 3/32 of both pokemon's maximum HP (1/16 + 50%), or B) heal 10% of one or both pokemon's max HP.

Regarding Trainer Attack: How exactly? Pierce is not a pokemon and I didn't think that the weapons he wields could create a pokemon attack either. And how would you choose the pokemon moves or is there even a list to choose from?

I mean, something like:

Blaziken uses Fire Blast!
Pierce uses Trainer Attack! Pierce attacks Blaziken's target, except he doesn't actually do damage. In fact, for all intents and purposes, it counts as part of Blaziken's Fire Blast, and adds a chance to cause Instant Death or reduce Special Defense by one stage (depending on which weapon Pierce is using, and based on the chances those weapons normally have of inflicting statuses). No extra damage or anything.

Get it now?

Regarding Remember Your Training: This one I would want to hear Gem's opinion. With Cosmic power, the hard part was that we are in an situation where attacking is king and I only could use it to great effect because I piled it on top of a pokemon with already absurd defense AND have the Simple ability on it. This one actually contributes to attacking. Also, if you recall the Stat modifier charts...

"x1.5, x2.0, x2.5, x3.0, x3.5, and x4.0."

That means your ability is basically a free Helping Hand for BOTH of your pokemons.

So yeah, it might be simpler to do a straight up damage buff or something.

Something like 20 or 25% extra damage for both pokemon?

EDIT: Hey guys, remember a little while back when I started that entire TVtropes traits among PATCA members?

I found the two that basically sets apart Renny and Impact

Renny as "The Fettered" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFettered)

Impact as "The Unfettered" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheUnfettered)


Pretty much sums things up a bit. ^^

Piece is rather Fettered.

[DanteFalcon]

Just to mess with you guys.

Matthias is somewhere between those two.

[Dracorion]

Anyway, the plan. I like mine better, Menarker:

I'm going to assume that, since I haven't run my proposed Trainer Actions by AB, and Menarker only has the one, and Bard hasn't thought up his yet, that we're still going by the old Trainer Attack system, at least for this turn.

Renny: Shaymin and Swampert use Air Slash on the Fog.
Rachel: Two Rage Rockets on Pierce and Impact.
Wilhelmina: STAB Dark Shot on Psytellite A.
Irene: Attacks PsyImpact with Grimslay for STAB Super Effective Ghost damage and 50% base chance of Instant Death. (Doubled to 100% due to Super Effectiveness?) Sceptile uses X-Scissor on PsyPierce. Rhyperior uses Megahorn on PsyMatthias.
Melanie: Uses "Un" (Dark Type Slayer attack) for STAB Super Effective damage on PsyMatthias. Base 50% chance of flinching which might be 100% flinch due to Super Effectiveness?
Harliette: Vespiquen and Wormadam use Attack Order and Bug Bite (both bug moves) on Psytellites B and C.
Moon: Vaporeon uses Helping Hand on Harliette. Lanturn uses Signal Beam, a bug move on PsyPierce.
Lexhur: Uses Grill Gore for strong dark type damage on PsyRenny.
Charlotte: Uses Arceus (Poison typed due to Toxic Plate) and his Poison typed Judgement on one of them Asura Beta A to knock it out with Super Effective Damage. Sol-Leks uses Dark Pulse on PsyImpact. Spends her Trainer Action to use Future Shock, centered on Psytellite E, Asura Beta E and Psytellite F.
Matthias: Porygon Z, Dark Pulse on PsyMatthias.
Pierce: Tyranitar uses Crunch (Dark) on a PsyPierce and Blaziken uses Overheat on Asura Beta D.
Impact: uses Swarm Bow for super-effective damage on PsyImpact. Pays 75 RPs to use C,C&C.
Shannon: Florescense uses X-Scissor on Psytellite B. Roserade uses Poison Jab on Asura Beta D.
Kurika: Uses Below the Belt for STAB Super-effective damage on PsyImpact.
Milsha: Uses Throat Harpoon for STAB Super-effective damage on PsyMatthias.
Cecilia: Splash Bomb on PsyPierce.
Aster: Lucario form, Divide Dark Pulse between Psytellite C and PsyPierce.
Harliette (2nd): does Desperado to do four powerful randomly aimed typeless attacks (Hopefully there are fewer targets since she attacks last, so there is less chance of a bad random attack).
Pierce’s Trainer Attack: on PsyPierce.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I've been thinking of alignements of the character's, and this is what I've gathered. I'll have to find quotes to go with them later. Some quotes that I have applioed didn't actually happen on screen, but they presumably happened at some poiint.

We have at least one character that seems to fit with each though.

Good

Lawful Good: Rayleen

Neutral Good: Renny

Chaotic Good: Pierce


Neutral

Lawful Neutral: Dormond (sort of kind of)

True Neutral: Matthias. Presumably.

Chaotic Neutral: Harliette

Evil

Lawful Evil: Impact

"I propose I become Leader!"

Neutral Evil: Charlotte

"So can I just cap the bitch or what?"

Chaotic Evil: Discordia sounds like this from her name.

[Dracorion]

Pierce sorta skims the line between Neutral Good and Chaotic Good.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Yeah, but I figured Renny fits neutral better than Pierce does, and he seems a bit more chaotic.

Its a bit meta, but the details of his sidequest was sort of the thing that made me decide to put him there.

[Dracorion]

Fair enough.

I dunno about Rayleen being Lawful Good, though. How many protocols has she broken between the first mission and now?

Not to mention, she derives a little too much pleasure from all the kicking ass and taking names.

[DanteFalcon]

Actually I'd like to thank Gem for not revealing my motivations which he asked for in PM way back when. Good show sir.

[Dracorion]

Matthias has motivations?

[DanteFalcon]

Just because he doesn't yell out what he wants doesn't mean he doesn't want things.

[Menarker]

Technically, Renny is closer to Lawful Good, because he tends to behave as per a personal code of conduct of sort and has significant tendencies to follow traditional rules and orders if he thinks it'll benefit himself and his friends. Yes, he's not pure law since codes of conduct also leans towards chaos if it's not in allignment with society and the government. However, his is. He favors the law mainly because that is at the moment the best way to keep people safe and happy. (Mind you, Neutral Good is not a bad fit either.) Renny's allignment axis is way more focused on Good/Evil as opposed to Law/Chaos. Renny becoming neutral or even chaotic is not going to break his character and it might even be plausible as a character development. Renny going neutral or evil would be an jarring shift that is not plausible for his character at this time or any time soon.

Rayleen IS or at least does seem closer to law than Renny though, since she tries to rely on the law and follow protocol when at all possible, and her first instinct and tendency when coming across a situation is to use the law whether it be through protocols or through her extensive contacts. Her political motivation might also be a sign that she cares an awful lot about being lawful. Yes, she done some chaotic actions, but she never stops using the law at every first oppurtunity, even when chaos would just be easier. Yes, she won't shy from chaos if the law won't work at first, but that's part of dealing with lawbreakers and corrupt officials. However, her typical intent is to use and follow the law and her tendencies whenever possible is to use the law. She easily qualifies as lawful to me.

And being good doesn't mean you can't kick ass and take names, especially when the person wrong you first! :3 She won't pretend to be compassionate to those who deliberately obstruct her in accord with a corrupt and decadent scum of the earth. However I won't deny that when compared to Renny, she's closer to being Neutral in terms of Good/Evil, while Renny is closer to being Neutral in regards to Law/Chaos.


For the plan, I didn't intend for my proposed plan to be set in stone as it was since I left a few spots open/ambigious due to lack of information and such. But Drac adopted most of it into a more refined plan so I'm fine with it... mostly. There is an error with the plan...

Aster: Lucario form, Divide STAB Dark Pulse between Psytellite C and PsyPierce.

Lucario is Fighting/Steel type and thus doesn't get STAB for Dark Pulse.

I mean, something like:

Blaziken uses Fire Blast!
Pierce uses Trainer Attack! Pierce attacks Blaziken's target, except he doesn't actually do damage. In fact, for all intents and purposes, it counts as part of Blaziken's Fire Blast, and adds a chance to cause Instant Death or reduce Special Defense by one stage (depending on which weapon Pierce is using, and based on the chances those weapons normally have of inflicting statuses). No extra damage or anything.

Get it now?
So basically you're applying the Slayer effect of the weapon element you use onto a pokekmon move that your affected pokemon uses... But technically, the effect seems like it would be the same if Pierce was just attacking directly, since you aren't applying power to the move and all you're doing is adding the slayer stat affliction of the weapon Pierce is holding.
Is that about right?


EDIT: Anyhow, I'll write my post tomorrow after work.

[Dracorion]

Lucario is Fighting/Steel type and thus doesn't get STAB for Dark Pulse.

Right.

So basically you're applying the Slayer effect of the weapon element you use onto a pokekmon move that your affected pokemon uses... But technically, the effect seems like it would be the same if Pierce was just attacking directly, since you aren't applying power to the move and all you're doing is adding the slayer stat affliction of the weapon Pierce is holding.
Is that about right?

Yep.

What, nothing to say on Five-Star Deluxe Special or Remember Your Training?

Anyway, I thought up a fifth Trainer Action for Pierce.

Willpower: Both of Pierce's pokemon gain 50% resistance to being afflicted with statuses until the end of the turn.

AB, if we're not finalizing the changes to the advanced upgrades before this turn, does that mean Irene has Overblade's Double Attack?

[Menarker]

Well, I approve of 5 Star Deluxe mainly because I still don't think it might have any significant influence, but it's your choice.

Remember your Training I don't really know whether to accept or not, although I'm definately more accepting of it now.

Willpower was one of the ones I was thinking of proposing, so I guess I don't have any particular problems with it.


As for Irene using Double Attack, I'd be very wary about setting precedents. If you let Irene Double Attack this round, I'll expect that she'll be able to do it for all future rounds and thus anyone who reaches her level should be able to do it too.

I just wanted to have a base plan in mind so we weren't wasting time later on.

[Dracorion]

Well, I approve of 5 Star Deluxe mainly because I still don't think it might have any significant influence, but it's your choice.

Specify, man! Do you prefer if it regenerates or just plain heals damage, and on one or both pokemon?

I can't make these decisions on my own! I'M ONLY A MAN FOR GOD'S SAKES.

Remember your Training I don't really know whether to accept or not, although I'm definately more accepting of it now.

I think I'll scrap it.

Tell me what you think of this:

Mock: Pierce taunts one enemy. One enemy's attack is redirected at one of Pierce's pokemon. Multi-target attacks would be centered on Pierce's pokemon. The pokemon targetted does not gain Rage when this Trainer Action is used.

Sorta like follow me, except for one attack. And no Rage gain, so y'know.

As for Irene using Double Attack, I'd be very wary about setting precedents. If you let Irene Double Attack this round, I'll expect that she'll be able to do it for all future rounds and thus anyone who reaches her level should be able to do it too.

I just wanted to have a base plan in mind so we weren't wasting time later on.

Hell, I don't know if we want to put the RP on hold any more than we already have.

[Menarker]

Well... Gem might yell at me, and I apologize if I go overboard... but for Five Star Deluxe I would have it target a single pokemon but regenerate a 20% of max health every turn. Significant enough to be of SOME use during combat, but it won't save you for being ganged up, or at least for long. "Expect no less from Chizuru's cooking"

>_> As for Mock, I'd want to slap you SO badly, because that's the custom move I wanted for my Umbreon...
Well, there are a few significant differences...It could redirect it to any friendly ally and it redirect all attacks targetting an ally it wanted to protect.
Otherwise, I wouldn't reject it yet. (Still thinking whether to approve, but I got to leave for work NOW.)

[Dracorion]

Well hurry up and get back from work, then.

Or make Gem log on sooner, pick your favorite.

[Menarker]

Well, someone offered me a ride, so that gives me a little time left.
One thing that came to mind what Pierce could end up doing with Mock is that one of his pokemons could use Protect and Mock would then end up being effectively a single target Null Turn move (unless the attack used was Almighty Type or Feint or something like that). However, that does mean that one of your pokemons wouldn't be attacking. We'd basically be trading off one attacker on our side for one attacker on their side, although you'd get the bonus that any foes that was going to attack that pokemon in the first place would have wasted their move on a protected pokemon.

[Dracorion]

Well, someone offered me a ride, so that gives me a little time left.
One thing that came to mind what Pierce could end up doing with Mock is that one of his pokemons could use Protect and Mock would then end up being effectively a single target Null Turn move (unless the attack used was Almighty Type or Feint or something like that). However, that does mean that one of your pokemons wouldn't be attacking. We'd basically be trading off one attacker on our side for one attacker on their side, although you'd get the bonus that any foes that was going to attack that pokemon in the first place would have wasted their move on a protected pokemon.

Admittedly, I didn't think of that. What if the pokemon targetted isn't allowed to take an action, but does gain Rage?

[Menarker]

I'd personally be ok with that.

Anyhow, got to get going. Be back in several hours.

[Astral Harmony]

Yes, treat Irene like normal as far as Double Attack is concerned. However, her second attack will not generate any Rage. This isn't the permanent solution to it, but we'll do that for this mission.

I was hoping to address all these class changes, but my Internet crapped itself last night halfway through reviewing them all.

Anyways, I woke up late this morning, so I don't have any time before I have to go to work.

[Dracorion]

That'll teach you to spend all night giving your left arm a workout.