[WAR] so let's talk about this mosque in New York

[Fifthfiend]

Link for general reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_House)

To recap:

- Moderate muslims decide to build community center in New York, named for era of peace and tolerance among people of many faiths, hoping to promote such peace and tolerance

- Bigots decide that this building is too close to Ground Zero, because all muslims everywhere bear collective responsibility for the actions of terrorists, and also the World Trade Center was actually a consecrated church of Christianity. And also the community center is a mosque, and also they hate the name, because who even knows.

- Various cowardly and/or closeted-bigot politicians say that yes America totally does have religious freedom or whatever they guess, but muslims shouldn't build their community center anyway, because the important thing about religious freedom is that we should throw ours away in order to appease bigots.

- I headdesk over and over again

Actually there's one good thing about this story which is that it lays bare the stark anti-Muslim bigotry that's simmered beneath the surface of society for a long time underneath a condescending veneer of how we're bombing Muslim countries out of sincere concern for their freedom that previously only came out in weird, inexplicable ways like the whole "OBAMA IS A SECRET MUSLIM" thing.

[Ryanderman]

Something also of interest that's been brought to the surface, just how difficult it is to get a mosque built anywhere in the USA. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/hottopics/detail?entry_id=70689)

It's not about Ground Zero. That fronted reason for protest just happens to be more politically acceptable. If it was just about Ground Zero, it wouldn't be happeneing all over the country. It's
...the stark anti-Muslim bigotry that's simmered beneath the surface of society for a long time...

I've been guilty of it in the past. And it bothers me that I have.

[Kim]

IIRC you can't even see the community center from Ground Zero, nor Ground Zero from the community center. There's buildings in the way or some shit. But yeah, this is pretty bogus what-the-fuckery.

Glenn Beck compared it to building a Timothy McVeigh memorial across from where he bombed, or if Rihanna payed for karate lessons for her abusive ex. I tried to strangle Beck with my mind, but it didn't work. I am still trying.

EDIT: It might have been one of the other two Fox douchebags, actually. Angry Fox News jackasses all sound the same to me.

[Viridis]

The building is neither a mosque nor at Ground Zero. End of story.

Also, this is a good take on it. (http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/)

Also (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2010/08/unsanctioned.html).
- Bigots decide that this building is too close to Ground Zero, because all muslims everywhere bear collective responsibility for the actions of terrorists, and also the World Trade Center was actually a consecrated church of Christianity. And also the community center is a mosque, and also they hate the name, because who even knows.

Also also (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2010/08/please-forgive-me-for-the-actions-of-extremists-i-have-never-met-who-commit-acts-of-violence-that-i-.html).

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It's 2 blocks awayfrom Ground Zero. Someone should totally take a map and ask them to draw acceptable places for mosques on the map.

[krogothwolf]

That's because the dude, Feisal Abdul Rauf, that is backing/building it is totally being portrayed as an American hating jerk cause ya know, he won't call Hamas Terrorists because he didn't want to become their enemy so he pretty much said he wasn't gonna answer the question and then he pointed out that American Policies in the Middle East is why the terrorists attacked them. The saying the best way to prevent more terrorist actions against the US is to change their policy in the Middle East to one that doesn't help full the Anti-American hatred there isn't right! Wanting Peace is A BAD THING YO!

I mean, look at how bad this guy is he is totally such an evil man because of this. He's so evil he condemned 9/11 and called it Un-Islamic! What a bad person!!! He clearly has ulterior motives for building this Mosque! Like, probably creating some American grown Muslim extremists! Why, that's what one columnist said like 4 days ago in a paper so it must be true!!!

Seriously though, I really think people need to get over this Muslim hating thing because only a small portion of em are the crazy extremists. I for one support Park51 and hope it helps with peace and tolerance to all! It also looks pretty cool from the outside.

You know, the more I read over the crazy part of my post, the more I come to realize how insane people are to actually think that way.

[Nique]

1) There is a Shinto temple near Pearl Harbor
2) There is a Mosque inside the Pentagon (also a target of the 9/11 attacks is I remember correctly)
3) Freak out about those too
4) ???
5) Profit

[Liquid Snake]

Man, you know what I actually want to happen right now?

I want the Muslims to build a Mosque on Ground Zero.

Two Mosques actually. Shi'ite and Sunni.

And I want a Catholic church, Protestant church, an Orthodox church, a Jewish temple, a Buddhist temple, a Hindu temple, and some Darwinian atheist monument showing the evolution of man up there, too. Toss in a behemoth statue of the spaghetti monster. I want Ground Zero itself to be transformed into one gigantic clusterfuck of every imaginable faith and no faith at all, with the exception of Scientologists who I want to stay the fuck away.

Because what would be more quintessentially American than us giving Osama bin Laden the middle finger by showing him what America's really all about? Complete religious freedom, absolute freedom of speech, people from all different faiths and ethnicities and worldviews coming together for one awesome party. It's too bad it won't happen.

[McTahr]

Notice that this is an election year (Not a major one, but the House and one third of the Senate), and the Republicans are the ones who possibly stand to gain anything from a campaign based on fear and bigotry, especially given their history.

2 + 2 = Godawful bid for Republican majority congress.

Effectively, this is taking attention away from any major events that could serve to increase faith in the left, such as the general in charge of Afghanistan's military troops stating that we are actually vaguely achieving things, the withdrawal of combat troops from Iraq, etc.

(Also, it's really throwing a wrench in General Petraeus' plan for Afghanistan considering they were trying to, you know, not severely piss everyone off and here we went and showed how we're still all moronic bigots.)

[Kim]

Notice that this is an election year (Not a major one, but the House and one third of the Senate), and the Republicans are the ones who possibly stand to gain anything from a campaign based on fear and bigotry, especially given their history.

2 + 2 = Godawful bid for Republican majority congress.

Exactly.

[Julford Hajime]

Man, I was watching the news today while they showed clips from protests outside the proposed area, and there was a chant going on that they kept repeating.* The chant was something like "We're sick of all this racism and bigotry, MUSLIMS DON'T DESERVE TO BE HERE!"

I laughed, and then cried. Laughed because of the absolutely hilarious hypocricy of the words, then cried because they actually believe this is a reasonable thought process.

*: Yes, it was on Fox. I was watching my local Fox studio because I hate the other local channels and I at least KNOW that Fox is biased as all fucked.

[Bob The Mercenary]

I listened to some radio show Saturday while I was on break from work. Every single caller referenced Muslims as "those people" and how "they want to kill us".

I don't...I don't even know anymore. And the best part, the part that I love, is the best argument anyone can come up with against this psuedo-mosque/prayer room is "but it's just wrong."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EgPcrnOHcjA/TEemwUsnlnI/AAAAAAAAA7c/DrCiAbkuyCM/s400/rageguy.jpg

[Magus]

Doesn't really matter, there's no legal way to prevent this Islamic community cent--OMG MOSQUE from being built, as it's a privately-owned property that used to be a Burlington Coat Factory. They'll build it, world won't end, people will quit talking about it.

[POS Industries]

It's been 26 years and Republicans still don't know what "Born in the USA" is about. (http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/08/23/born-in-the-u-s-a-mosque-protestors-ironic-anthem/)

Me? I'm looking forward to playing basketball at Park51 as soon as it's built.

[Tev]

Doesn't really matter, there's no legal way to prevent this Islamic community cent--OMG MOSQUE from being built, as it's a privately-owned property that used to be a Burlington Coat Factory. They'll build it, world won't end, people will quit talking about it.Actually that's not completely true. Two words: Eminent domain.

I mean, yeah this little blogy thing from the Salon (http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/19/heroes_villains_ground_zero_mosque/index.html) is not the greatest source of info...

I might need to invent a separate "I think he actually means well but what the hell" category for Gov. David Paterson, who is, I think, trying very hard to be a peacemaker, as part of his "fuck it, I'm out of office soon anyway" tour '10. But his claims that he will give state land to the developers (which would be constitutionally iffy) and his repeated insistence that he's meeting with Cordoba Initiative representatives about moving the site (which they keep disputing) are just serving to support the idea that there's some compelling reason why they should move.

....but that highlighted part there sound like the beginning of those kinds of talks. They'd start with "But we gave you state land to build somewhere else." And then when the builders still refuse they'd follow it up with "Well you know how we assumed control of some state land for you to build on? Yeah, well we're doing that again. This time we're assuming control of your land and giving it to someone else."

[RobinStarwing]

First off, I am no racist or bigot.

I am both for and against this community center.

I am for it and not just that...lets setup so much land around Ground Zero with temples to every religion. Kind of like Liquid Snake's suggestion.

But I am also against because some of what you see as bigotry is actually still the fresh wounds of 9/11 that are bleeding and open. This is making us face them and yet I am reminded of something I heard said and it is the most logical and concise argument I've heard against the Park51 project.



Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should.



So yes, I do support the project going forward if it does because it would be un-american not too due to this place will hopefully be used to promote peace and tolerance. At the same time though, I am against it because the wounds are still too fresh.

Freedom is a balancing act between knowing when you can do or say something and when it would be better not to do it or open your mouth.

[Kim]

So, they shouldn't build a community center with basketball court and culinary school on land they bought where you can't even really see Ground Zero because some people will be offended that Muslims will be able to pray inside and by offended I mean Fox News will tell them to be offended?

That's... that's definitely... huh...

[POS Industries]

The problem is that it's not really about the wounds. It's about fear. It's about this whole idea that there's an enemy at the gates united by an ideology of hatred toward our freedom and fealty to a heathen god that wants to burn down our women and rape our churches. It's a fear borne by an attack on our people but nurtured by our leaders telling us for the past decade that they will protect us from the bad men but we must be ever wary because the bad men could be walking among us as we speak!

But we know what to look for! They'll be darker skinned, have funny names, and irregular shaving habits! BE EVER VIGILANT OF THE TRAITORS IN OUR MIDST!

But this is what the bad men want as they sit in their hideouts on the other side of the globe. They want us to turn against each other and wage war on our own people, to submit to the terror they've sewn and disregard every ideal we claim to hold dear as we tear ourselves apart from within. That's why they're fucking called terrorists.

So here we are. It's very easy to go on about our Constitution and Bill of Rights and how America is the best, freest, kindest, smartest, shiniest, most springtime fresh country in the world gosh darn it and how we are a nation based on principles and ideals to which we would never dare waver when there's nothing to threaten it. But it only means something if we stick to those principles and ideals when it's hard to, and right now it's very hard for us to do that.

Which means we absolutely have to, now more than ever. Either we prove that we're more than just talk, or we let the terrorists win.

[Nique]

I'm totally all about sympathy for people hurt by something awful. I'm more about not using that hurt to forward a political agenda.

It's about fear. It's about this whole idea that there's an enemy at the gates united by an ideology of hatred toward our freedom and fealty to a heathen god that wants to burn down our women and rape our churches. It's a fear borne by an attack on our people but nurtured by our leaders telling us for the past decade that they will protect us from the bad men but we must be ever wary because the bad men could be walking among us as we speak!


This.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

These people had nothing to do with 9/11. Sayin they shouldn't be any Islamic buildings due to 9/11 is kind of like sayin Germans shouldn't be able to move to the states because of World War 2, despite all the Germans alive beitoo old to have any part in it.

[Fifthfiend]

irregular shaving habits!

In fairness, I think we all hate the Amish.

[Fifthfiend]

and Barrelpants.

[Osterbaum]

Also, this is a good take on it (http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/).
That article is disgusting. I mean, I agree with the points he makes in general and it's great someone speaks out for, or atleast neutrally about, the not-mosque. And I'm sorry, but all the AMERICA GREATEST this and AMERICA SUPERFREELIBERTIESSS references make me want to throw up. So much so that I wanted to make a separate thread just to talk about that way before this thread.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You won't be allowed to though Oster. Us non-Americans live under super-dictators who watch our every move and threads about America would be forbidden so we all don't want to suddenly flee there.

and Barrelpants.
Right, I'm going to build some kind of stupid pretentious as fuck movie cinema/art gallery/cigar den right next to Wall St. That'll show you fuckers.

[Bob The Mercenary]

What makes this issue even more difficult is that it can't be very easily narrowed down to fringe right wing hysteria. Something like 70-75% of NYC residents are against it, and that city is heavily liberal. 65% of the entire country is against it's construction.

This is disgusting. Seriously, I don't think I've ever been so ashamedWell, except for that one time...

[krogothwolf]

That article is disgusting. I mean, I agree with the points he makes in general and it's great someone speaks out for, or atleast neutrally about, the not-mosque. And I'm sorry, but all the AMERICA GREATEST this and AMERICA SUPERFREELIBERTIESSS references make me want to throw up. So much so that I wanted to make a separate thread just to talk about that way before this thread.

You do know Cracked is a joke site right?

[pochercoaster]

First off, I am no racist or bigot.

I am both for and against this community center.

I am for it and not just that...lets setup so much land around Ground Zero with temples to every religion. Kind of like Liquid Snake's suggestion.

But I am also against because some of what you see as bigotry is actually still the fresh wounds of 9/11 that are bleeding and open. This is making us face them and yet I am reminded of something I heard said and it is the most logical and concise argument I've heard against the Park51 project.

So yes, I do support the project going forward if it does because it would be un-american not too due to this place will hopefully be used to promote peace and tolerance. At the same time though, I am against it because the wounds are still too fresh.

Freedom is a balancing act between knowing when you can do or say something and when it would be better not to do it or open your mouth.

Because showing that Americans can accept other religions won't help those wounds heal or anything. Because keeping people from practicing their religion is not divisive nor does it reinforce the whole "Americans are bigots and hate the middle east" stereotype that extremists want people to believe in order to engender conflict.

Edit: In case anyone missed it, that was sarcasm.

[krogothwolf]

The problem is to many American's think any Muslim is out to destroy America. They don't realize that the vast majority of Muslim's aren't the crazy extremists.

[pochercoaster]

My boss is muslim. My paycheques must be laced with anthrax!

[Ryanderman]

The guy sitting at the desk next to mine is Muslim. Care to guess what he talks about all day?

His kids! And how cute they are!

Also, the cruel irony of him getting voted employee of the month, and recieving the free lunch coupons from the cafeteria that go with it during Ramadan.

Dastardly!

[POS Industries]

That article is disgusting. I mean, I agree with the points he makes in general and it's great someone speaks out for, or atleast neutrally about, the not-mosque. And I'm sorry, but all the AMERICA GREATEST this and AMERICA SUPERFREELIBERTIESSS references make me want to throw up. So much so that I wanted to make a separate thread just to talk about that way before this thread.
The thing is, though, that if we as a people are going to continue the whole smug nationalistic deal we've been doing for the past couple centuries about how our country is the best country EVARS and everyone else can suck it--and we are. Forever. Because it's pretty much our thing--then we need to put our money where our mouth is. Anything less is hypocritical.

Being American is all about having a ginormous fucking ego. It's a part of our cultural heritage. Deal with it.

[CABAL49]

I can't find a real percentage, but what bugs me is that Muslims are classified as Arabs when there is a huge percentage who are Black/African-American/colored/coloured.

[krogothwolf]

The only percentage that matters is roughly 23% of the people in the world are Muslims! It's second only to Christianity.

[rawredy]

The only percentage that matters is roughly 23% of the people in the world are Muslims! It's second only to Christianity.

Which both religions have A LOT of similarities. They're founded on basically the same system.
Judaism, too.

[Osterbaum]

You do know Cracked is a joke site right?
I do, I read the site regularily. But this article wasn't a joke article. And those parts I was complaining about seemed genuine.

Being American is all about having a ginormous fucking ego. It's a part of our cultural heritage. Deal with it.
I am dealing with it. By complaining and getting disgusted.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I am dealing with it. By complaining and getting disgusted.

THe proper response is to get all smug and snooty!

[Osterbaum]

I know, but I usually reserve that for when there aren't any americans around.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Which both religions have A LOT of similarities. They're founded on basically the same system.
Judaism, too.

:wtf:

The thing is, though, that if we as a people are going to continue the whole smug nationalistic deal we've been doing for the past couple centuries about how our country is the best country EVARS and everyone else can suck it--and we are. Forever. Because it's pretty much our thing--then we need to put our money where our mouth is. Anything less is hypocritical.
But you have to remember, the snooty American will respond with "but we don't need to do that. We've already done that with such-and-such and so-and-so."

[krogothwolf]

I know, but I usually reserve that for when there aren't any americans around.

real men do it around the Americans!

[Osterbaum]

I'm not going to do it. You know why? Because I'm not a real man. Only American men are REAL men and I'm not AMERICAN.

[RobinStarwing]

I think you all missed my point. I am not against or for this center. I support the right for someone to build it for the reasons it is built. I am just saying that the man behind it should of thought a bit more about the possible public response to the building.

Taking words out of context is half the reason we end up with arguments like the one over this building project in this country.

For New York City, 9/11 is still a fresh wound as many of them can remember days of seeing the WTC Towers and now they can't and that is a stark reminder to them of not just the loss, but of who was behind it. For many there, I can imagine this is like putting salt in that wound.

Fear is part of that wound and they need to get it out and deal with it on their own terms. Judging them for their response as Un-American is very Un-American. They have the right to their feelings. The only ones who I am concerned about are the Fearmongers using this to fuel the propoganda that keeps the hate on both sides going.

[Kim]

Fox News is either evil or stupid (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap)

TL;DR: One of the people they're talking about being the evil guy funding all this who is un-American blah blah blah is their parent company's largest shareholder or some such.

[CABAL49]

I thought Colbert's take was pretty apt. (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/351553/august-23-2010/the-word---losing-his-religion?xrs=share_copy)

[POS Industries]

I am dealing with it. By complaining and getting disgusted.
Well gosh, I'm sooooooooooo sorry that your gentle sensibilities are offended by our having people who actually want us to live up to the standards preached by our commercialized nationalism.

And I'm even more sorry to be one of them.

[RobinStarwing]

Fox has always been both Stupid and Evil.

[BitVyper]

But is it stupidly evil or evilly stupid?

[Wigmund]

Depends on when you watch the channel. Fox & Friends and the general news they have on in the morning is evilly stupid while Glenn Beck and the other commentators who are on later in the day are stupidly evil.

[Marc v4.0]

Fox News is either evil or stupid (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap)

TL;DR: One of the people they're talking about being the evil guy funding all this who is un-American blah blah blah is their parent company's largest shareholder or some such.

This couldn't possibly bite them in the ass!

Insulting your bosses bosses bosses boss is so the way to get ahead!

[Nique]

TL;DR: One of the people they're talking about being the evil guy funding all this who is un-American blah blah blah is their parent company's largest shareholder or some such.

Follow the money!!! *Flails Arms in the air like he just dont care*

[rawredy]

:wtf:


My comment was actually kind of stupid. Words just seem to happen that make sense in my head at first and then just don't sound right once out, so what I said isn't entirely what I actually meant. I'm stupid.
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have a bit in common. Not (nearly) the same system by any means, really, but yeah. I'm not sure what word I'm looking for.

[Osterbaum]

Well gosh, I'm sooooooooooo sorry that your gentle sensibilities are offended by our having people who actually want us to live up to the standards preached by our commercialized nationalism.

And I'm even more sorry to be one of them.
Yes, I am very sorry aswell.

[POS Industries]

But no seriously when did the United States piss in your cornflakes?

[Archbio]

When did they not?

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have a bit in common.

Abraham does get around.

[Osterbaum]

While there is a huge list about atrocities etc. committed by the US goverment I could point out here, while very much valid points, I wont metion them further. Because the US isn't the only country to have done stupid/evil shit and you propably wont be the last. That's not specifically what's bothering me here. What gets to me is the attitude of Greatest Country in the World. It's so ultranationalistic, so arrogant and it's such bullshit. There is more, but I find it suprisingly hard to explain. For instance, if my country displayed the same level of nationalism-craze, flags everywhere, people always quoting Freedom and Liberty as something only we truly have etc, I would fucking hate it here (even more than I already do). I would be embarrassed.

[POS Industries]

When did they not?
I swear, officer, we never touched Finland! Neither dorsal nor ventral!

What gets to me is the attitude of Greatest Country in the World. It's so ultranationalistic, so arrogant and it's such bullshit. There is more, but I find it suprisingly hard to explain. For instance, if my country displayed the same level of nationalism-craze, flags everywhere, people always quoting Freedom and Liberty as something only we truly have etc, I would fucking hate it here (even more than I already do). I would be embarrassed.
Yeah, I don't like Republicans, either. But thanks for characterizing an entire nation by a caricature you pieced together from news reports from a quarter of the globe away. Thanks for putting us alone with the whole "Greatest Country in the World™" shtick despite it being a hallmark of every country--Finland included--since the dawn of time. That's pretty damn cool.

I mean, of course America isn't the best country in the world. Hell, Canada's way better than us at the moment, and have you seen those guys? I've watched "Corner Gas," I know what it's like up there! But sometimes it's nice to get together and rally around the home team, you know? It's not like you guys don't do it, either. From what I've read, Finland's had the classic "nationalism through cultural homogeneity" deal going since the 19th century, at the latest, which hasn't made it easy for any number of Sami, Roma, Chileans, Vietnamese, or Somalis that have tried to make a life for themselves within your borders.

But that might just be a caricature pieced together from news reports from a quarter of the globe away and not a fair assessment of Finland as a whole.

[Archbio]

I am just saying that the man behind it should of thought a bit more about the possible public response to the building.

It seems to me that you're saying a little more than that: you're saying that he should have thought a bit more about it, and then decided against the community center idea.

Because after all maybe they did think about the public response a lot. All you have to go on regarding how much they thought about it is the fact that they went ahead with the project.

Hey, maybe they just didn't factor in the politicos who've created an issue out of this.

Thanks for putting us alone with the whole "Greatest Country in the World™" shtick despite it being a hallmark of every country--Finland included--since the dawn of time.

Maybe it's more of a question of a the "Only Great Country in the World" vibe, rather than of the "Greatest Country in the World."

This seems to be something that you feel strongly about, but I don't there's any reason to take it as something that's attributed to every single citizen of the United States. It's a peculiar tone of political discourse.

"Some of my best friends are from the United States."

Edit: Jean Chrétien did once say (in French, but this is an accurate translated paraphrase(!)) : "Canada is the most best [sic] country in the world." Nationalistic boasting is universal, that is true.

[POS Industries]

Maybe it's more of a question of a the "Only Great Country in the World" vibe, rather than of the "Greatest Country in the World."
That's not really one we use, though. Of course, once again, there are Republicans and they totally say stupid shit like that, but they don't count because they're people that are so dumb they say stupid shit like that. You know, like they say Brits and Canadians dying by the hundreds in hospital waiting rooms due to their embracing universal healthcare, etc. despite mostly glowing reports of such systems from the people who actually live in those countries. Or that all muslims are behind 9/11. But everybody has idiots like that.

Like, right now, we apparently have a majority (according to polls) of Americans who are being wrong and dumb about this whole Park51 thing, and that sucks, which pisses off the apparent minority (according to these oh-so-infallible polls) that aren't being wrong and dumb because the same people that like to talk big about how fuckawesome we are for these things our country is supposed to have are all suddenly trying to do the exact opposite of those awesome things.

I just think it's bullshit to make a big giant fuss about how it's so disgusting that a guy used the phrase "greatest country in the world" once in an article where, aside from a throwaway bit of nationalistic rhetoric, he was totally right about why Americans were being fucking wrong and dumb.

This seems to be something that you feel strongly about, but I don't there's any reason to take it as something that's attributed to every single citizen of the United States. It's a peculiar tone of political discourse.
You're right, I'm probably taking it a little more personally than I should. It just struck me as something of a bizarre overreaction to something inconsequential.

[Osterbaum]

Yeah, I don't like Republicans, either. But thanks for characterizing an entire nation by a caricature you pieced together from news reports from a quarter of the globe away.
I am well aware of what the caricature includes and knowledgeable enough to know not all Americans fit any of the common stereotypes about them, the one being discussed included.

Thanks for putting us alone with the whole "Greatest Country in the World™" shtick despite it being a hallmark of every country--Finland included--since the dawn of time. That's pretty damn cool.
Nationalism has been (and often still is) the hallmark of most countries. The whole "Greatest Country in the World" -thing not so much. Don't get me wrong, people who believed their country to be the greatest certainly have existed and still exist, but to my knowledge the US is the only country to turn it in to a national ideology and kept doing that to a certain extent all the way till today. Also it's the little things, like American flags everywhere, pledge of alliegance, God bless America etc. Those you'd never find in Finland, for example. Before you comment on it, it doesn't particularily matter to what extent and by how many people this is done presently, the fact these things are a topic in todays world at all is enough for a foreigner like me to note the difference between the US and my home county(ies).

But sometimes it's nice to get together and rally around the home team, you know?
Hey I can definitely understand nationalism and that feeling you get for example after winning a hugely important sports event etc., I just don't particularily like it.

It's not like you guys don't do it, either. From what I've read, Finland's had the classic "nationalism through cultural homogeneity" deal going since the 19th century, at the latest...
The situation in Finland in the 19th century could be compared to, while stripping it down to it's most simple components, the US' desire to create a national identity and one that is sufficiently opposed (that is, different) to the British. Except in our case replace the British Empire with the Russian Empire. So what you are saying certainly happened. Why it didn't come out as racism then is propably in large part due to the fact that there weren't many foreigners and because Russia was the one enemy everyone could unite against.

...which hasn't made it easy for any number of Sami, Roma, Chileans, Vietnamese, or Somalis that have tried to make a life for themselves within your borders.
Don't even get me started on the problems we have in Finland and why I think this country is largely populated by ignorant assholes. But where I see the difference here to what I was saying about the US, is that this sentiment of racism and the problems we have here doesn't come from über nationalism, atleast not just that. What I mean is, that while we have many of the same problems and are (atleast capable) of being equally stupid and assholish (towards foreigners) as anyone else, but even so I do not encounter the kind of nationalism we're talking about almost at all.

Also, Chileans and Vietnamese? Maybe that was too much before "my time" for me to realize the extent of any possible problems, but Chileans and Vietnamese don't raise any biggot alarms as far as I know. Sami, Roma and Somalis though, unfortunately, yes. Well the Sami less; with them it's a much more deep rooted and older problem and one that isn't as severe anymore today. But still, fuck my goverment and fuck many of the people who live in this country.

e:
I just think it's bullshit to make a big giant fuss about how it's so disgusting that a guy used the phrase "greatest country in the world" once in an article where, aside from a throwaway bit of nationalistic rhetoric, he was totally right about why Americans were being fucking wrong and dumb.
I would never run in to a phrase describing Finland as "The Greatest Country in the World" in a any fashion anywhere in Finland, except for a FARFARFAR right publication. We're talking racist as fuck, right-wing nutjobs. Even the slightly less nutjob right-wingers don't claim Finland as THE Greatest.

e2: What Smarty said below.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The difference is that the Republicans are a major political party whereas the nationalistic rightwingers are in general more of a minor trend in other countries. And American nationalism has large consequences for the rest of the world when it is used to justify wars to "protect democracy" and the like. Sure other countries have people that would do this but in the US they have both the power within the country to do this and the military force to also achieve it.
And there is certainly unique historical dimensions to American nationalism as a modern country, born in a revolution that fetishised the idea of being a different country, a better country. It is a part of the founding myth of the country in a way that is different to other places.
While all countries have ridiculous nationalism it does seem stronger and more entrenched in America and there are historical reasons for that. It was a big part of the major historical trend of "American exceptionalism" where America was different to other countries and experienced things differentely, due to its age, its unique circumstances of creation, its physical isolation from other major powers and its immense resources.

Also shit dawg, yo dudes have a pledge you say and everything. We'd laugh that shit out sucka. And you loves your flag super freestyles.

[Krylo]

Well, depending on how you define it, the USA kind of IS the greatest country since the Cold War.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/country_profiles/1217752.stm)

Edit: To save time of people going to read that: Only Superpower Left.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well on pretty much all scales of econmic or military or industrial or politcal power they do kick the shit out of everyone. And if I had to say one country was the greatest at the moment it would probably be the USA. But that's not the problem with nationalism is it?

[Krylo]

And if I had to say one country was the greatest at the moment it would probably be the USA. But that's not the problem with nationalism is it?

But is it still a problem with nationalism when it's factual?

[POS Industries]

Wait a minute, why am I being lectured on how to be a proper country from one guy who hails from Gondor and another guy from the Scandinavian country everybody invariably forgets? We invented the A-Bomb, dammit!

USA
USA
USA

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It's only factual because the very nature of the question forces you to ignore the other far more important and critical facts. The answer may be USA but the question is bunk.

We invented the A-Bomb, dammit!


Only by building upon our wizard magicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Ernest_Rutherford)

[Osterbaum]

I'd counter POS with size7 coloured FINLAND text, but I'm way too lazy to do that shit for the fourth time today.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You can't talk Finland. You're only a country because the Russians were too busy shooting each other to put down your revolt.

[POS Industries]

Only by building upon our wizard magicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Ernest_Rutherford)
And we'll forever remember his work by crediting Einstein with building the whole thing with his bare hands after gaining US citizenship. AS GOD INTENDED.

It's only factual because the very nature of the question forces you to ignore the other far more important and critical facts. The answer may be USA but the question is bunk.
I'd counter POS with size7 coloured FINLAND text, but I'm way too lazy to do that shit for the fourth time today.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/FlagEagle.jpg

[Krylo]

To be fair, Gondor is pretty cool.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/krylo/432_2_MPframe210_4k_v01.jpg

I mean look at that architecture. And they had a pretty cool prince, too.

It's only factual because the very nature of the question forces you to ignore the other far more important and critical facts. The answer may be USA but the question is bunk.

I'm sorry, all I'm hearing is 'It's factual' followed by some mumbling and 'you guys are totally the greatest'.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I see your eagle and raise you one:
http://puredanger.com/techfiles/080911/gandalf-the-white.jpg
It's on bitches. When was the last time you motherfuckers took down a Balrog?

[Krylo]

It has been awhile, but they were ALL OVER the video games and MUDs back in the day.

You guys wanna hear about my teenage RP-MUD character? It'll be like that DnD character thread but with more faeries gay.

[POS Industries]

When was the last time you motherfuckers took down a Balrog?
Every time I play Street Fighter.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The best character and canonical winner in street fighter comes from Japan. If the world is taken over by a megalomaniac dictator who can create lightning from his body we can clearly conclude that the US won't be the ones to save us.

[Krylo]

The best character and canonical winner in street fighter comes from Japan. If the world is taken over by a megalomaniac dictator who can create lightning from his body we can clearly conclude that the US won't be the ones to save us.

On the other hand, Ryu trains constantly all the time, while Ken drives around in sports cars and fucks hotties, and Ken is only BARELY worse than Ryu. And can do all the same shit.

Edit: And Guile totally took down Bison in the live action movie starring Van Damme.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

That's cause Ryu was played by a Chinese man. And I think we can all agree, however bad the US is- at least it's not China.

Also Ken has to win a martial arts tournament and defeat a dictator in hand to hand combat before his girlfriend would marry him- which is like the height of being a pussy. In NZ we just hit them with a 2x4 and throw them in the back of our ute to drive down to the local chapel.

[Krylo]

But Ken is pretty much always depicted with some other hot chick on his arm, so it's less him being a pussy and being ordered around by his fiance, but rather that he sees beating the shit out of a crazy dictator with his bare hands as a totally viable engagement present.

[POS Industries]

And yet New Zealand doesn't even have a Street Fighter character. Neither does Australia, for that matter, but they barely allow video games in their country anyway so it doesn't matter.

Then again, Brazil's even worse about that shit and they got Blanka.

Then again again, Blanka sucks.

My point is I mainly play the Korean chick at this point.

[Marc v4.0]

I believe my country to be great because I want us to be the Greatest Country in the World. We should aspire to be Technological, Industrial, and Societal leaders in our world while working to improve the quality of life for every living creature on the planet.

But we have no motivation to work, want everything now now and now, we activly crush people lower in status then us to fufill sadistic jollies, we consume a fuck ton more then we produce, what we do produce is mostly shit because we want to do everything as cheaply as possible, people die on the streets because you have to be a fucking millionaire to get medical insurance and actually keep it when you get sick, our two-party system blows horse shit with both sides being exactly the same bull that's just spray painted a different shade of failure, and the vocal majority of the country like to use a Religion of Love, Forgiveness and Understanding to poorly veil the promotion of racism, sexism, homophobia and outright unfiltered HATE of others.

It sucks when you barely even scratch the surface, but I really hope one day we can actually live up to our claims.

EDIT: Dammit, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt the Street Fighter talk

[Professor Smarmiarty]

But Ken is pretty much always depicted with some other hot chick on his arm, so it's less him being a pussy and being ordered around by his fiance, but rather that he sees beating the shit out of a crazy dictator with his bare hands as a totally viable engagement present.

Surely the best engagement present is letting her cook you some eggs.

And yet New Zealand doesn't even have a Street Fighter character. Neither does Australia, for that matter, but they barely allow video games in their country anyway so it doesn't matter.

Then again, Brazil's even worse about that shit and they got Blanka.

Then again again, Blanka sucks.

My point is I mainly play the Korean chick at this point.

There was a NZ character modelled after Jake the Muss who would throw beer crates at people but he was taken out for being too good.

[Krylo]

Surely the best engagement present is letting her cook you some eggs.

Ken is so bad ass that to him there is no difference between watching a woman cook eggs and beating the living piss out of a bunch of dudes.

[Marc v4.0]

Edit: And Guile totally took down Bison in the live action movie starring Van Damme.

Hey! There is no way that funny-talking costumed meathead Van Damme would ever beat the great Raul Julia in mortal combat at streat fighting!!

[Krylo]

He used a SONIC BOOOOM!


Poor Mr. Julia never stood a chance.

[Osterbaum]

I wish you'd stop praising Street Fighter so much. It disgusts me.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well it's a Belgian versus a Puerto Rican. Belgium are basically a neutral ground for Europe's wars but if you leave the Puerto Rican alone for long enough he'll starve so Van Damme takes it easy.

[Fifthfiend]

http://gawker.com/5621653/new-york-cab-driver-has-his-throat-cut-for-saying-hes-a-muslim

I always thought the one thing that would make America better would be turning it into Bosnia.

[Archbio]

That's not really one we use, though.

I did say vibe, and not some consecrated expression that people actually spell out. Moving on!

I see your eagle and raise you one:

It's really suspect that Google can't seem to find an image of the giant eagles from the Lord of the Rings; which are more eagle than than any old, bald eagles, who mostly eat carrion when they're not stealing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleptoparasite#Birds) other birds' stuff, will ever be.

It's probably that there's some tension after the whole "why not just fly the ring into Mordor" scandal.

[RobinStarwing]

Again, taking my words and adding a meaning to them that isn't there. He could of still decided to build it but with the possible reaction in mind. I am not saying he did or didn't. I am just speaking for myself here.

As to the pride and everything with the pics...

I see your Balrog-killing Wizard and raise you...
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/9297/sailorsaturn01xe6.jpg

A planet destroying Sailor Senshi with an awesome weapon that can cut through anything. Sailor Saturn is the definition of Bad-ass.


So what we if we think our country is the greatest? It may not be Mr. Finland but we sure as hell are better off than China or other parts of the world that are developed. Some of us still believe in trying and even if we fail, we still did our best.

Damned if we do and Damned if we don't. Whether we do something or not, someone in the world will bitch so I say damned if we do. So take your broad view of Americans and shove it where the sun don't shine cause your entitled to that opinion and I am entitled to my own opinion that your opinion sucks.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It's probably that there's some tension after the whole "why not just fly the ring into Mordor" scandal.

Man you dudes don't have to deal with this shit but I've met some ofthose flying ring-wraith dudes and they scary as fuck. Eagles be pissing themselves yo.

[Fifthfiend]

If the best thing you can say about any country is that it's better than China, that country objectively sucks.

[RobinStarwing]

If the best thing you can say about any country is that it's better than China, that country objectively sucks.

Dude, I didn't say we were better than China. If you want to see Ultra-Nationalism and Egomaniac pride in your country...go to China. We are better than China because we are willing to concede (well some of us anyways) that we don't get it right all the time.

China...hell! China claims it's owned Tibet all along when history says otherwise. :wtf:

[Professor Smarmiarty]

China has ruled Tibet for some quite significant periods of time which is pretty much what they base their claim on.....

[Archbio]

Again, taking my words and adding a meaning to them that isn't there. He could of still decided to build it but with the possible reaction in mind. I am not saying he did or didn't.

You said that they "should have thought a bit more" about it. As in, in your opinion, they didn't think enough about it. I don't see any other meaning to that than the one that I've articulated.

But really the gist of the thing is that you think that it's justifiable (I'm not saying that you share the reaction) for people to react as though any visible sign of muslims existing on the island of Manhattan (in 2010) has anything to do with the 2001 attacks, and I think it's justifiable to tell them that it's a disgraceful, irrational attitude of intolerance.

I'm going to leave it at that.

I think that what Fifthfiend was saying is that saying that a country is better than China isn't saying much. Unless "better" just means "more powerful."

Man you dudes don't have to deal with this shit but I've met some ofthose flying ring-wraith dudes and they scary as fuck. Eagles be pissing themselves yo.

That's jive talk. Just teach the Eagles how to make fire already.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

They don't have the necessary dexterity for the act of firemaking.

[Archbio]

If you can hit stuff with a rock, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AAftQIro7Y) firemaking is just another rock away.

Alternatively, just give them a torch.

Alt-alternatively, just light them on fire. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/2004_Belgium_10_Euro_60_years_peace_Europe_front.J PG)

[Fifthfiend]

Dude, I didn't say we were better than China... We are better than China

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

[RobinStarwing]

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

No, what we have here is a failure to understand that I speak as I think. I do not spin or pull bullshit. When I say something, I mean what I say.

Like my opinion of the human race. 90% of it is made up of mindless sheep who only bitch about something when it DIRECTLY interferes in their pathetic little lives and will otherwise do nothing as long as all their needs and wants are met.

Or that no matter what a person says, people will always try to read something else into it...whether there is something there or not.

So now I will step out of this debate as anythign else I say will obviously be taken out of context or given meanings that I didn't assign to it.

[Nique]

Like my opinion of the human race. 90% of it is made up of mindless sheep who only bitch about something when it DIRECTLY interferes in their pathetic little lives and will otherwise do nothing as long as all their needs and wants are met.


This (http://xkcd.com/610/)* is the type of opinion one hopes angtsy teens will grow out of.

*Yeah yeah I know it's xkcd but hey there's even an Ayn Rand reference!

[Fifthfiend]

No, what we have here is a failure to understand that I speak as I think. I do not spin or pull bullshit. When I say something, I mean what I say.

Like my opinion of the human race. 90% of it is made up of mindless sheep who only bitch about something when it DIRECTLY interferes in their pathetic little lives and will otherwise do nothing as long as all their needs and wants are met.

Or that no matter what a person says, people will always try to read something else into it...whether there is something there or not.

So now I will step out of this debate as anythign else I say will obviously be taken out of context or given meanings that I didn't assign to it.

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/6402/peggyheaddesk312.gif

[pochercoaster]

According to the human development index (http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/), Norway is the best country in the world, Canada is the 4th, and the United States is the 13th.

Last time I checked, the United States does not have free health care, universal gay marriage, universal abortion rights (I may be wrong- I think one or two states don't allow abortion, but I don't remember for sure...), and the death penalty is still legal. That doesn't seem very forward for the best country in the world. It also seems like the poor in the United States tend to be really fucking poor and the rich tend to be really fucking rich, whereas in other countries the gap isn't so pronounced.

[Osterbaum]

Newsweek just recently chose Finland as the best country in the world.

[POS Industries]

Whew! Good thing nobody reads Newsweek anymore!

[Fifthfiend]

They should do a ranking of best bankrupt magazine that got sold off for a dollar.

[Osterbaum]

I thought it was total bullshit too.

[Archbio]

[...]90% of [...] sheep [...] read [...] this debate.

Sir, it is a well known fact that sheeps can't read at all! Check and mate.

I say [...] I didn't assign [...] it.

I rest my case.

[Azisien]

I can't decide if its better on mute or not. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmyzRVI9PIM&feature=channel)

[Osterbaum]

Why did they make an animation? What's wrong with news footage?

e: I mean, at the same time that whole thing is pretty cool and disturbing as hell.

[Magus]

Did anybody mention the Muslim victims of the 9/11 attacks in all of this hootenanny as one of a hundred reasons for not hatin' on this community center? 'Cause there were like a hundred or something, both in the towers and on the planes (as non-terrorists. I know it's hard to believe that a Muslim would get on a plane and not attempt to hijack it, but it's true!)

BTW, America is totally the best overall, you can't just pick on us for being xenophobic, homophobic Objectivist-driven psychotics, 'cause that's only like 20% of our population, seriously mang.

[Eldezar]

Did anybody mention the Muslim victims of the 9/11 attacks in all of this hootenanny as one of a hundred reasons for not hatin' on this community center? 'Cause there were like a hundred or something, both in the towers and on the planes (as non-terrorists. I know it's hard to believe that a Muslim would get on a plane and not attempt to hijack it, but it's true!)

BTW, America is totally the best overall, you can't just pick on us for being xenophobic, homophobic Objectivist-driven psychotics, 'cause that's only like 20% of our population, seriously mang.

20% of the people cause 80% of the problems.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

That's only because only the rich muslims can afford the guns. The rest of them tried just approaching people and dying of starvation on them but it didn't work very well.

[krogothwolf]

Those Chinese animated New reports are getting even more awesome!

[Magus]

Yeah they did one for that steward guy, right? I never realized that China would lead the way in relating breaking news stories through the medium of story-driven CGI animation. Also, which ideogram up there at the top means "Islamophobia"?