Protoman Shrugged

[01d55]

So if you actually read all the lyrics and notes for The Protomen's rock opera, and then think about them, it turns out that it's an Objectivist tragedy.

There are exactly 5 individuals who amount to anything: Dr. Wily, Dr. Light, Joe, Protoman, Megaman. Dr. Wily represents the evil of the state, which manipulates first Dr. Light and then the world through altruism. Because he is not himself infected with altruism, Wily gets to win all the time despite ripping off Dr. Light's work and using violence to coerce others: Light allows this because he has allowed himself to be blinded by altruism.

Dr. Light represents the folly of an otherwise productive individual trying to help others rather than himself: Every time he tries to do anything for others, the whole world gets fucked.

Joe comes off better than anyone because he comes closest to the Randian hero archetype: When he realizes what Wily's robot communist "Utopia" is, his instinct is to get himself out and leave the sheeple to rot. At the moment of his escape, he is intercepted by the two great evils of Objectivism: state violence in the form of Wily's assassin, and altruism in the form of Dr. Light. The former fails to stop Joe, the latter succeeds - and we are also reminded that Wily's assassin is Light's Monster.

Protoman & Megaman are both born into Light's altruism, but in the course of their struggle they recognize the sheeple for the unworthy parasites they are and fall into despair, having been denied an opportunity to live for themselves. "The Stand" is the Big Objectivist Speech of the opera.

I didn't care for it myself but, like Ayn Rand's own works, they're still pretty popular.

[Viridis]

Well thanks for ruining that band for me.

[Amake]

I'm not that familiar with Ayn Rand or the Protomen, but I guess I'll have to keep rocking without actually listening to the words. >_>

Heck, I occasionally rock to a band who've worked with the very face of Swedish white supremacism. The trick is to separate the artists from their work.

I'm glad you took my command for the thread name by the way.

[Kim]

It's certainly more obvious in Act 1 than in Act 2, but it's always been one of those things that irk me and I try not to think about too much.

[Bard The 5th LW]

The whole thing was obviously a ploy meant for them to push their Satanist Agenda down our throats.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I can't wait to see how Randian the third album will be.
I don't have the feeling the albums try to convey a Randian message rather than telling a story I enjoy.

EDIT: By that first line I mean that it's probably better to see how the story ends before we assume to know what it tries to do. With the second line I mean to say what it says.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Whelp so much for that band. It was a fun ride up till now. Though really are we sure that it's an Objectivist Tragedy? what made it this anyway? (so I know what to avoid with my works).

Meh I might still listen to Act 3 despite this. I want to see if Mega comes back.

[Kim]

Though really are we sure that it's an Objectivist Tragedy? what made it this anyway?

Anyone acting altruistically suffers for doing so. Anyone who acts selfishly benefits. Act 1 ends with Mega turning his back on the people he saved to let them get killed by the robots.

[Magus]

Wait, you guys weren't aware that the plot was dealing with Objectivism? I'll repost a topic I put on the Protomen's forum a long time ago (I'm Baramos) (http://www.protomen.com/comm/viewtopic.php?t=1651&highlight=):

"Certain characters seem to line up with various philosophies. Here's what I've been thinking about so far:

Dr. Light = Humanist

Dr. Light believes in working for the betterment of humanity, and has dedicated his life to that ideal ("No son would ever have to say, my father worked into his grave."). He also holds out hope for decades that humanity will overcome its collective fear and overcome Wily and the robots through mass action ("Even now, there is still hope for man." "You underestimate the character of man" etc.). He believes in humanity's inherent goodness and ability to achieve great things ("We will build cities in a day, standing high above the city, etc."). Dr. Light clearly represents a humanist figure who believes in mankind, even if he expresses doubt and anger at times.

Dr. Wily = Corrupted Objectivist, Fascist

Dr. Wily has worked with Light on projects to supposedly help humanity, but it seems clear that he considers the mass of humanity to be less than gifted people like him and Light. He believes that gifted people are superior to the average person and that the average person cannot achieve greatness ("We will build cities in a day/Men would cower at the sight/We will build towers to the heavens/Man was not built for such a height"). In fact he implies that "heroes" will have to be built, men can't achieve such status ("Oh, they are weaker than you think.""We will build heroes.") Wily also has a sense of personal entitlement, that he deserves more than other people. ("We've spent our whole lives working to make a better world/giving everything to them, asking nothing in return/well, here it is, our chance to take back everything we've earned.") Wily's gifts aren't for the betterment of mankind but for his own betterment. His corruption comes from the fact that he steals from others and kills to gain his power, material wealth, and control, which is a corruption of true Objectivism. He ends up ruling oppressively over humanity, taking other men's freedom. True objectivism says that one man shouldn't have to give up anything for another men, nor should another have to give up anything for him. Thus it is clear that Wily is corrupt and selfish. He exerts rigid authoritarian control over society, kills to maintain his power with a secret assassin, uses propaganda and nationalism to assert control, secretly kills "unwanted" people like criminals and homeless people, and asserts government control over industry.

Emily = ? (Probably Humanist)

While Emily isn't given much dialogue, if she's dating/engaged to Light she probably believes in what he's doing and is probably a generally Humanist type of person.

Joe = ?

He's a rebellious adolescent, he probably hasn't put as much thought into a philosophy as an adult. He obviously agrees with Light about freedom and so forth, but he never gets the chance to build up a philosophy about the whole thing.

Protoman = Corrupted Objectivist OR Corrupted Idealist?

Protoman comes to see humanity as worthless, and willingly joins Wily's side in order to rule over them. Unlike Wily this isn't so much out of selfishness as deep hatred and loss of idealism, however. The fact that unlike Megaman instead of simply walking away from the entire situation he chooses to join Wily puts him more in to the corrupted Objectivist camp, however. It's implied that he secretly wishes and hopes mankind will overcome its apathy and cowardice, but it doesn't come true within his lifetime.

Megaman = Objectivist

Megaman originally believes in Light's hope in mankind, but comes to consider them weak and worthless by the end of Act I. However, unlike Protoman, he walks away from the entire situation, choosing not to die for mankind but not to willingly cause them harm, either. His feeling that the mass of humanity is not worth saving pegs him as an Objectivist, but since he does not actively help their oppression he does not become corrupted.

Any thoughts on any of this stuff? Also looking for more philosophies, or clarification on some of it (such as Objectivism, since my only real knowledge of that is Atlas Shrugged type of stuff)."

Now, just because the Protomen are dealing partially with Objectivism, does not actually mean they are an Objectivist band. Light, for example, represents something approaching a "True Altruist"--Randian philosophy doesn't actually allow for this. Instead, the Altruists of society are more like Wily--they supposedly want to help people but this is only sheep's wool for their true nefarious natures and need for control over other people. Also, even though Megaman represents the only true "Objectivist" in the entire opera, the end of Act I does have him turning back to look at the city when he hears the people chanting "We are the dead", so Act III will probably deal with whether or not he decides to help them even though they are unwilling to stand up for themselves.

Plus, the opera deals with lots of other influences, such as 1984, dystopia, willingness to die for cause being more important than living, etc. To say that it is just Objectivist dogma is pretty untrue, since they aren't very good at actually following Objectivism. It's more like Objectivism for people who don't really get what Objectivism is all about, since Light is actually a cool guy and all, whereas in Randian philosophy he would be the true villain, even more-so than Wily. In Randian philosophy the altruists aren't tricked by the evil fascists, they are the fascists. Sure, Light unknowingly ruins everything by attempting to help everybody, but there is actual genuine feeling behind it, that even Protoman realizes, even if he considers him a fool. The fact that it is genuine makes it exceed Objectivism and changes it to being completely the opposite of an Objectivist opera, in my opinion.

In any case, even though Randian philosophy probably holds within it existence for "True Altruists" (who are nevertheless the actual cause of all society's ills, the path to hell being paved with good intentions in Randian philosophy), the Protomen ask us to sympathize with this True Altruist, Light, making him the protagonist and tragic hero, something Rand certainly never did and would never do. So to say that the Protomen are Objectivist is wrong, the plot just involves Objectivism and causes us to think about it, especially in light of Act II and what would be in store for Act III (which must involve some form of reconciliation between Megaman and humanity, otherwise there wouldn't be much fodder for plot).

Anyway, that was a really good discussion we had on the Protomen's forums (even if everyone else ended up knowing more than me!) and if you guys were really hardcore you would've been in on it.

[Magus]

Also I would like to say that understanding the Protomen comes down to this basic symbolism I have written about in the past:

Also I posted this once before but it was in a thread that was going to hell, so I'll talk about it again: Light's beard represents his desire for freedom and outlook on life, since it is unruly and untamed, whereas Wily's cleanshavenness (or mustache, depending on if you go with the cover art of Act II or Wily in the games) represents his need for militaristic order. Or something like that.

Truly this is all you need to know about the Protomen and its symbolic underpinnings!

[Viridis]

See, now I need to listen to The Good Doctor again because you reminded me how awesome that song was.

Now, just because the Protomen are dealing partially with Objectivism, does not actually mean they are an Objectivist band.
So it's Objectivist in the same sense that Bioshock is, I'd say. Which is not very.

[Magus]

Yeah, as I mentioned to you in PM, the Protomen, dealing with a dystopia in the albums, seem way too pessimistic to think that the Randian utopic commune would've been anything but an abject failure, especially when attempted by human meatbags incapable of standing up to robots with a basic EMP bomb from pretty much any sci-fi movie.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

That clears things up quite a bit. Thank you for the info Magus. Roll hasn't appeared in the Protomen yet right? If they use her, I wonder if she'll be the one to convince Mega to give mankind a second chance.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I almost had to whip out a facepalm pic. Not because of the interpretation, which is a perfectly valid one to make. But because some people are so easily influenced by someone else's opinion on the internet, seemingly without questioning it for a second, (nope, not gonna listen to the band anymore, I'm afraid it might poison my mind with their evil philosophy they try to inject into my brain.) some of those would even go as far as butchering their own works so no one objects with them. Maybe it's just me, but it's what I consider a bullet to the head.

Some people seem to take underlying themes in stories, intentional or not, way too seriously too and they always assume it must be the author's intention, no matter what. If I'd do that I probably couldn't watch any movie, or listen to any album or read a book, because somewhere, there's always a way to interpret something in a way that'd make me not like it. Often it's the most obvious one.

If I were to write a story I'd have better goals than trying to put my views in your brain, but maybe it's just because I hate missionaries of any kind.

No offense, by the way, I'm just posting this anyway.

[Viridis]

nope, not gonna listen to the band anymore, I'm afraid it might poison my mind with their evil philosophy they try to inject into my brain.You know I was joking, right?

And yeah, if you don't like the meaning behind a song, you could always go all Death Of The Author (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor)*TVTROPES LINK

Edit: Dammit, I just saw the tag you gave the post.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, although, at times, I may get a bit (perhaps too) specific.
I'd also like to point out that my post might seem a bit more energetic than it's meant to be. Just imagine it to be read out loud in a really monotonous voice, because that's really how I talk, for realz. If you want I can record it with an over the top accent and upload it yootoob.

[Magus]

I'm an English major, doing a close reading of a work for thematic references, examining connotations of words, and interpreting it any which way we can selectively using evidence to back up our position is what it's all about. We can B.S. all day about it! And we do!

[01d55]

I'm an English major, doing a close reading of a work for thematic references, examining connotations of words, and interpreting it any which way we can selectively using evidence to back up our position is what it's all about. We can B.S. all day about it! And we do!
Indeed, the true purpose of all academic study of culture is to ruin things you like by thinking about them.

Speaking of which, has anyone noticed that the human chorus is male before "How The World Fell Into Darkness" and female thereafter? (Chronologically, so female throughout act 1. Possible exception in "Hope Rides Alone;" the chorus is nigh inaudible.) It's particularly striking when Protoman directly addresses them as "Man." Also, the only woman with a name is Light's girlfriend, and she dies in the second song (third track) so her boyfriend can have a personal grudge against the villain.

[Magus]

Only woman in the thing dies horribly, Protomen are obviously misogynist. Except for like the men who die horribly, too, but that's not being selective!

It's kind of like how The Dark Knight is racist because only black people die in it, except for all the people who die in it that aren't black, including the whitest guy in the whole thing getting his face burned off and his neck broken. But that's not being selective! You gotta select only the shit that supports your position, or suddenly Iago doesn't want to have gay sex with Othello and kill Desdemona out of envy. And we know that that was totally what Shakespeare was getting at, obviously!

[01d55]

Only woman in the thing dies horribly, Protomen are obviously misogynist. Except for like the men who die horribly, too, but that's not being selective!

Not being selective: The men actually do things that aint dyin'. Joe defeats Light's Monster and blows up the tower, Protoman goes down in a big brawl and then comes back for another big fight. Emily walks on stage, says Wily nay, gets murdered.

Wily, Light, and Mega Man ain't dead yet, and they all done big deal stuff.

EDIT: There was black people in the dark night???

[Magus]

Pretty sure Emily completely defines Light's conscience, dies for an ideal, and leaves behind a letter which inspires Light to build super fighting robots! She's the driving force behind pretty much everything by sheer existence...actually she's kind of like Ayn Rand's heroines. Shit, it really is Objectivist stuff. Nooooo!

The Dark Knight had black people in ancillary roles (except Morgan Freeman, I guess...) so that would be a better reason to call it racist. The black people who are killed are Gambol in the knife scene, Commissioner Loeb, this one black cop who the Joker shoots with a shotgun, and...man I think there was another one? Anyway, after the movie came out at least one site said it was racist "because the only people who were killed in it were black", which didn't make a lot of sense, they shoulda focused more on the parts that black actors were given, like the fact that Billy Dee Williams still didn't get to play Twoface.

[POS Industries]

It's also worth noting that Emily's an original character to the opera, which is a work adapted from a particularly male-dominated franchise, to the point that "Man" is a part of most the characters' names.

Up until 2008, over twenty years since the series began, the only female character was Roll, a weak, helpless little girl whose only purpose was to clean the house. They only brought in Splash Woman two years ago, and she's noted as the weakest robot master in her game, and the first to die during the average playthrough.

It's hard not to have your adaptation seem misogynistic when the source material you have to work with reeks of it.

[Premmy]

Both ya'lls shut up, I'm trying to have a stupid reactionary response to valid criticisms of my stupid nerdy likes by refusing to acknowledge their valid concerns and disregard them in shallow ways to avoid coming to terms with the flaws in the things I love and their place in the oppression of marginalized groups/ their advocating of ideas that promote that.

[Magus]

Megaman The Animated Series had Roll doing stuff, they should do it like that if they get around to Roll. I never did understand why Light didn't give her a gun. She can take out a robot master with a vacuum cleaner attachment, she'd be unstoppable with a gun.

[PyrosNine]

Whatever, Roll in normal canon rocks harder than well, Rock. The fighting games she's in set up the idea that Roll is just as powerful as Mega Man, she just has been relegated to more peaceful activities. Which is why she rapes me in Vs. Capcom games.

But as to her treatment in a -man dominated series...well, Super Adventure Rockman (http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/SAR/) has her succumbing to global magnetic waves well before any other of the Light/Wilybots because...she's a girl robot.

As to any deeper idea of the ProtoMen cribbing from Ayn Rand objectivism, I say that they wanted to do a Mega Man themed rock opera, and all rock operas tend to be tragedies. The more metal they are, the more crapsacky the world is, so the world of Mega Man gets the "Evil Mirror from the Snow Queen" treatment, trading the reason why only Mega Man can stand up to Wily is because the police don't have the tech to take them down, for that apparently no one cares enough to do anything about evil robots. Also, Light and Wily are the only scientists in the entire planet.

It's less supporting Ayn Rand than making everything in the Mega Man medium especially dystopian for the sake of art. That, and artsy people tend to be real downers. Like Rilke!