Dissidia Duodecim Final Fantasy continues Squeenix's tradition of stupid titles

[Regulus Tera]

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/09/08/dissidia_ff_sequel/

One of Square Enix's most demanded sequels is becoming a reality. Dissidia Final Fantasy is getting a followup, Weekly Shonen Jump reveals this week.

The new game is titled Dissidia Duodecim Final Fantasy. In develpoment for PSP, the game will see release in 2011.

The magazine confirms Final Fantasy XIII's Lightning and Final Fantasy IV's Kain as playable characters. Aside from that, nothing is known at present.

This is very likely the mystery game Tetsuya Nomura said earlier today would be playable at the Tokyo Game Show, so we should be hearing a whole lot more shortly.

In other Jump reveal news, the magazine also mentions that Lighting will be appearing in The 3rd Birthday in some capacity. We'll have to wait for further details on this little bit.

Will post scans as soon as I find some.

edit: vworp vworp

http://i54.tinypic.com/10xee4h.jpg

[POS Industries]

Dissidia Final Fantasy is getting a followup
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/facepalm/haruhi.gif

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

Goddammt I want Sabin in the game.

[bluestarultor]

I sincerely hope they try to mix up the cast some. Or at least add more from every game. Yuna was going to be the FFX representative if Seymore had been the villain, but they went with Jecht, instead. I think playable Yuna would be awesome.

Also, maybe they'll include Celes in this one. Every time I think about it, I think of CJ's edit to the Terra art and how awesome it was. :D

[Liquid Snake]

Blues.
Blues.
Blues.

Erase everything you just typed and replace it with the following:

"If there's a playable Red XIII, I am totally buying a PSP and Dissidia 2, and I will PWN ALL those humanoid losers while mocking their lack of etiquette or their ludicrous hairdos."

[Regulus Tera]

Solid, is that you?

[Kim]

I want FFXII's Cid, but we'll most likely be getting Balthier instead. Oh well. Here's hoping Vivi makes it in.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

I wouldn't mind Seeing General Leo and General Beatrix in the next game as well.

[Regulus Tera]

Why would General Leo or Beatrix appear when there are far more important characters to each entry that would make better additions?

[Krylo]

I want FFXII's Cid, but we'll most likely be getting Balthier instead.

Well they do tend to put in the leading man. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YnLfe8KdDU&p=9C3AEEC3A5727260&playnext=1&index=7)

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

Because I said I would like to see them. Considering there are not any other main antagonist in FF9, Beatrix is the best choice as a third FF9 character.

Leo cause I always liked Leo.

[bluestarultor]

Blues.
Blues.
Blues.

Erase everything you just typed and replace it with the following:

"If there's a playable Red XIII, I am totally buying a PSP and Dissidia 2, and I will PWN ALL those humanoid losers while mocking their lack of etiquette or their ludicrous hairdos."

Being realistic. If they add anyone, it's probably going to be Vincent because of DoC. As much as I like Red (one of the most powerful characters in his game, takes the cake outright for a while after Cosmo Canyon, and I felt much more strongly for his story than anyone else's), the honest truth is that his fan base, while dedicated, is small. Vincent is almost as popular as Sephy, which is why he got his own game in the first place. I see him going in first to avoid the complications Zack poses (although I love Zack to death and it would be great if they found a way to make him workable), and if not Vincent then probably Barret or Tifa (although as I said the last time around, I'd also love to have the chance to make Aerith beat the stupid out of Sephy with her staff). Red ranks rock bottom of people liable to make it in from that game.



Edit: Actually, my burning question is who will make it in from FF9 aside from Zidane. Vivi is the most popular character from that game, in fact one of the most popular of all of FF, but the problem is he doesn't really have anyone to oppose him. Minus maybe Kuja. Aside from that, he doesn't really have a unique skill set. But then neither does anyone but Zidane. Garnet seems like an obvious choice because of Brahne except that she's a Summoner/White Mage. My shot in the dark would be Steiner and Beatrix, if it weren't for the fact that half of Steiner's skills depend on Vivi. Maybe they could just cheat, but it doesn't seem right.

[Regulus Tera]

Once you hax Shock into your party, you get to see that Leo was really kind of lame.

[POS Industries]

Once you hax Shock into your party, you get to see that Leo was really kind of lame.
It's less about the abilities and more about the man himself.

[Regulus Tera]

Galuf > Leo if that's the case

[BitVyper]

Eh, Galuf was okay. Mostly he just had a kickass death scene. Leo was awesome in every scene he was in.

I'd prefer Tellah to Galuf to fill the old man quota. And I'd prefer Strago to both of them.

[Regulus Tera]

Edit: Actually, my burning question is who will make it in from FF9 aside from Zidane. Vivi is the most popular character from that game, in fact one of the most popular of all of FF, but the problem is he doesn't really have anyone to oppose him. Minus maybe Kuja. Aside from that, he doesn't really have a unique skill set. But then neither does anyone but Zidane. Garnet seems like an obvious choice because of Brahne except that she's a Summoner/White Mage. My shot in the dark would be Steiner and Beatrix, if it weren't for the fact that half of Steiner's skills depend on Vivi. Maybe they could just cheat, but it doesn't seem right.

I doubt they are going to go with the "opposing rivals" idea once again, now that the premise has turned out to be successful. If anything, this is the perfect chance to go all Marvel vs. Capcom on it and choose a wider range of characters regardless of their animosity with each other.

[Roland]

Oh gods, Kain Highwind. I mean, I'm as big a fan of him as anyone else, but really, guys. Making Kain Highwind the new FF4 representative is like...

I don't know how to say it beyond "Shadow the Hedgehog". As in, the game "Shadow the Hedgehog".

Anywho... here's hoping Celes makes it in this time.

[Regulus Tera]

Who's to say he's gonna be the only new FFIV dude?

Cid Pollendina 4 lyfe

[Nique]

This needs to be an expansion of Dissidia to really be worth it. Like, I want to be able to play my level 100 Squall against some of these new characters, but I don't know that the made the original game to accommodate that.

[McTahr]

Yes to expansionating. I need to Jecht combo some new squishies into oblivion.

And either way they do it, I can't really see them following the same "Two from each game, one evil, one good" format just because of FFI anyway. Who else are they going to pull out? Without spoofing off 8-bit, it's not like there were any other significant characters to draw upon. (Warmech?!)

[mudah.swf]

Needs infrastructure play. Dissidia got boring real fast with nobody to play with, and I'm locked out of AdHoc Party for the foreseeable future. I'm also hoping for some real gameplay tweaks as well, not just new stuff.

[bluestarultor]

Yes to expansionating. I need to Jecht combo some new squishies into oblivion.

And either way they do it, I can't really see them following the same "Two from each game, one evil, one good" format just because of FFI anyway. Who else are they going to pull out? Without spoofing off 8-bit, it's not like there were any other significant characters to draw upon. (Warmech?!)

Technically, WoL isn't even a "character" from FF1. Well, sort of. He's basically a Fighter stand-in.

Remember, FF1 simply had the classes, not characters. Chances are if they bring in another one, it'll be either the Red Mage (which would be awesome for pimpingness) or Thief.

The only other "major" villain that comes to mind is Astos. Bikke doesn't really count, since you only fight his crew and they go down too easily to be considered a boss, anyway.

[DarkDrgon]

I would like to see Cid. all of them, fighting at the same time.

Winner becomes the villain in the sequel

[krogothwolf]

They should have Ramza and Delita!

[bluestarultor]

They should have Ramza and Delita!

While we're on non-main-line titles, who's hoping for Noctis and Stella?

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

They should have Ramza and Delita!

Or Ramza and Ultima

If we are going with FFtactics,

Ritz vs Marche

[krogothwolf]

Garbage

First, Ultima would be silly as a character, Delita would be much more awesome.

Second, the characters from FFTA are garbage characters.

[Kim]

I'm guessing we'll probably end up with a Kingdom Hearts character or two this time around, what with Birth by Sleep being out, plus they're probably announcing KH3 at TGS, soooo....

[Regulus Tera]

They won't be announcing any KHIII until they are about to finish VersusXIII.

And I doubt they'll put any KH characters. This is still a Final Fantasy celebration, not a Square Enix All-Stars Brawl.

[Roland]

Okay, since we're dream teamin' now...

http://th06.deviantart.net/fs20/150/i/2007/257/9/f/Another_mystic_quest_by_Crayonne.jpg

I am personally rooting for Benjamin now.

[mudah.swf]

FFTA rep should be Marche vs his brother. In the wheelchair.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

FFTA rep should be Marche vs his brother. In the wheelchair.

As long as Marche is the villain!

[Nique]

I'd take some KH characters in this mess. Sora would actually be great in a fighter/ brawler. Hell, put him in the next Smash Brothers.

[POS Industries]

Needs infrastructure play. Dissidia got boring real fast with nobody to play with
Seconded. I know it's asking S-E a lot to give even half a shit about the market outside Japan, but even there I have to imagine that being able to play online from any wifi location rather than be married to a PS3 would be a pretty popular move. Plus it seems S-E's been getting sick of Sony's shit lately (releasing FF13 on 360, no Birth by Sleep for PSPGo, etc.) so maybe they'll be less interested in playing along with Sony's misguided efforts to drive PS3 sales.

As for characters, if I had to guess it looks like they're aiming for three from each game, probably all the way up to FF13, with maybe a bonus character each from VersusXIII (Noctis, natch) and FF14 (any one of the major story characters. I'd go with the ditzy pugilist chick from the Gridania opening, myself) or something.

Most of the new characters are going to be pretty obvious. Seifer, Yuna, Vaan, and Prishe are highly likely to get in.

[bluestarultor]

Why Seifer? Really, he uses the same weapon as Squall and his ultimate Limit Break is cutting Odin in half, which really doesn't translate well.

I think Rinoa might be a much more interesting and workable character to add. Her weapon is unique, her Limits are unlike anyone else's in the whole series, and her EX can just as easily be Angel Wing.

[Kim]

Because Seifer is more popular.

[Nique]

I think Rinoa might be a much more interesting and workable character to add. Her weapon is unique, her Limits are unlike anyone else's in the whole series, and her EX can just as easily be Angel Wing.


Blues, you and I are of a kind. Like, everytime you talk about games you seem to know exactly what I'm looking for. Hurry up and start workin' for a game company so I can buy your games.

Because Seifer is more popular.

Is he? I mean, he was essentially a bully in the game and somehow an even greater douche than, say, Irvine.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I would say yes seeing as how I ain't played FF8 and I know who Seifer is but no clue who Rinoa is.

[Nique]

You don't know who the main love interest is? Damn, 11 years later and I'm still discovering how much apathy people have towards FF8.

[Kim]

Also, Seifer and crew were popular enough to show up in KH2. Rinoa wasn't.

[Donomni]

The chances of any new characters from XI not being Prishe or Lilisette is sadly high, especially when you have awesome characters like Tenzen or Zazarg.

Still waiting for the inclusion of Absolute Virtue as an impossible boss, or if SE really feels like trolling, make him beatable in a game that's totally not FF XI.

I swear to god, though, if Jecht and Sazh are not ON A TEAM in this game, I'ma cut something.

[bluestarultor]

Because Seifer is more popular.

Popularity means nothing if the character doesn't translate well. It's the same reason Zack won't be in. He'd play too much like Cloud. Seifer would probably play a lot like Squall and he doesn't have a workable ability set outside of that due to only being a temporary party member with very few special skills as a boss.

It's like how Vivi likely won't make it in. Vivi, despite ranking third in IGN's favorite FF character poll (after Cloud and Sephy, naturally), does not have a workable ability set. He's a Black Mage with no skills that would set him apart, since his Trance is simply Double Black. It works in the context of his game, and he made it into KH, but he wouldn't have much to offer Dissidia because it's a skill-based setup.


Also, Barrel, for Chissakes, Rinoa is on the box. Dead center. She's also in the logo. She's the female love interest in a game with a romantic plot! HOW COULD ANYONE MISS THAT?! :wtf:

[Nique]

He's a Black Mage with no skills that would set him apart, since his Trance is simply Double Black.

Counter Point: Terra.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Popularity means nothing if the character doesn't translate well.

Popularity=sales.


Also as I said I haven't played FF8, I haven't looked at the box. I'm saying that in popular culture around the game Seifer is bigger. And the fact that I've heard of Seifer and not someone who is apparentely central to the plot- that should tell you something.

[Kim]

Popularity means nothing if the character doesn't translate well.

Your naivete is adorable. I mean this from the bottom of my heart.

Seifer will be in because he's popular. That's how it works. Their first priority will be filling the roster with popular characters. They're second priority will be making the characters they've chosen play differently.

Besides, it's not like characters being more or less the same has ever affected the character roster for other popular fighting games.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

They should totally take Ken out of the next street fighter because he's basically the same as Ryu.

[Kim]

There are at least five Ryu clones in Street Fighter anymore. And the only worthwhile one is Dan Hibiki.

[bluestarultor]

Counter Point: Terra.

Terra has her Esper form and Riot Blade(?) to set her apart. Vivi gets a better hat and the ability to cast the same spells twice as much. You can argue the form change, but Double Black wouldn't make a very interesting special move, IMO.

I mean if they found some way to make it as awesome as the Black Waltz sequence, then sure, but that had a lot to do with camera angles and composition, not to mention music. Heck, all he did was cast Fire and they made it awesome, but I don't think they'd have as much leeway without the same setup, i.e. a cutscene.

Popularity=sales.


Also as I said I haven't played FF8, I haven't looked at the box. I'm saying that in popular culture around the game Seifer is bigger. And the fact that I've heard of Seifer and not someone who is apparentely central to the plot- that should tell you something.

Fair enough, but then this isn't exactly being marketed to the public at large. Dissidia is Final Fantasy's love letter to itself, so buying it is like watching it make sexy poses in the mirror and call itself a stud. The people most likely to do it are the ones who already have their eye on the series.

The people who will buy this one are going to mostly be the people who bought the first one, who are also the people who probably already own a large chunk of the series.

Including Seifer would be pointless and difficult from a gameplay perspective because of his abilities, and he wouldn't be winning any more sales from the undecided.





And just stumbled upon trying to look up the names of his attacks:
Several references to Seifer exist in Dissidia Final Fantasy. Squall fights with a faster, one-handed style similar to Seifer, and begins his EX Burst by striking his opponent in an upside down cross, similar to Seifer's Bloodfest Limit Break. In the Museum's summon files, Seifer's reversal of Odin's Zantetsuken is mentioned under Odin's entry. Seifer also appears as the name of a Ghost card, a Level 100 Ultimecia bearing the Green Gem and GF Eden Battlegen items. Tetsuya Nomura has stated that Seifer was considered as a candidate to appear in Dissidia, but was scrapped in favor of Ultimecia as they thought he would be too similar to Squall in fighting style, as both use a Gunblade.
Source: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Seifer#Trivia

So I guess that answers that.





Edit: I know I already posted, but need to reply to this:
Your naivete is adorable. I mean this from the bottom of my heart.

Seifer will be in because he's popular. That's how it works. Their first priority will be filling the roster with popular characters. They're second priority will be making the characters they've chosen play differently.

Besides, it's not like characters being more or less the same has ever affected the character roster for other popular fighting games.

It's not be being naive. It's me having a clue about game design. I know the logic behind these kinds of decisions because I've had to make them with my own projects since 2006. Four years of practice, albeit self-taught, is really nothing to sneeze at. Game design is not "figure out how to make it work later." You have to have things planned beforehand.

You could argue that they'll toss him in anyway because it's never hurt anyone else to have clones, but Dissidia is made with a different mindset. NONE of the characters play alike. They were very thorough in doing that. Changing it for the sequel is possible, but it's easier to take a character who already has a better starting point than it is to go changing things to take one away from an established base.

[mudah.swf]

None of the shotoclones in SF games really play like each other. Except maybe early SF2s

[Nique]

Including Seifer would be pointless and difficult from a gameplay perspective because of his abilities, and he wouldn't be winning any more sales from the undecided.

Also Dissidia lacked the kind of fan service that only including female characters - Tifa, Aerith, Quistis, Rinoa, Yuna, etc - could provide. I mean, really? ONE female character? And the midget thing from XI? Come on.

Plus Tifa would have been an awesome character to play with in this game.

[Kim]

None of the shotoclones in SF games really play like each other. Except maybe early SF2s

From what I've seen, they all have very similar movesets, and the only difference is the emphasis on moves. Best example I can think of is Ryu seems more Hadoken focused, and Ken is more Shoryuken focused.

It's not be being naive. It's me having a clue about game design. I know the logic behind these kinds of decisions because I've had to make them with my own projects since 2006. Four years of practice, albeit self-taught, is really nothing to sneeze at.

I will sneeze at it. I will sneeze at it like crazy.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

None of the shotoclones in SF games really play like each other. Except maybe early SF2s

They all have pretty much the same moves though, which is what the complaint is with Seifer- that he would have the same moves as Squall.

It's a fair point that it not being marketed to the audience at large- I don't relaly know- but they probably could do itand I'm surprised if they don't. And fill it with female characters- that would help sales a lot.

[Squall Leonhart]

This is the best birthday ever.

Unless this game gets released this same day next year. Then that would be the best birthday ever.

Anyway, I've found some nice stuff about the game confirmed via a translated scan.

http://www.schala-kitty.net/emperor/dissidia012-scan.png

Since I had the day off, I went through and translated the entire thing (other than the tiny blurb at the the bottom about Aya being able to wear Lightning's costume in Parasite Eve: 3rd Birthday). For those of you who want the summary version -


This is a sequel to Dissidia and will cover a new war between Light and Dark

Cecil and Garland are confirmed to be returning

Kain has the HP attack "Gungnir" and is a strong aerial character

Lightning has the EX-Burst Zantetsuken and will wield both her sword and magic

There is a new double-gauge at the bottom of the HUD, no idea what this will be used for but that confirms at least one new element to the battle system. However, (and this is just my theory) it looks like a two-level EX-Gauge.


With TGS next week, we can hope for more news about additional characters and features!


Source: http://community.livejournal.com/ffchaoticcosmos/253861.html

[bluestarultor]

I will sneeze at it. I will sneeze at it like crazy.

Well, that's your right. I'm just trying to provide a design perspective, as always. A designer's perspective will never fully mesh with a consumer's perspective. Normal people just don't have the technical knowledge to understand what goes into design decisions.

They all have pretty much the same moves though, which is what the complaint is with Seifer- that he would have the same moves as Squall.

It's a fair point that it not being marketed to the audience at large- I don't relaly know- but they probably could do itand I'm surprised if they don't. And fill it with female characters- that would help sales a lot.

What I'm seeing is that they're already adding Cain because of his involvement in The After Years and as FF4's resident badass. FF4 currently has greater market presence than FF8 because of the recent releases. Cain holds the additional benefit of offering a different style of play to work with.

Seifer, on the other hand, isn't as important right now because of lack of visibility minus a rather quiet PSN release. He also has already been rejected once and had references to his moves rolled into Squall's move set, which means they'd have to put in work to take them out, rather than recycling the resources. I'm going to guess that with Lightning being in that they won't want a third gunblade-user anyway. Lightning was almost in the last time around, but she has her own unique abilities from FF13, so they still have more to work with than they do with Seifer.



Edit: Squall, could you [SWAP] tag that image?

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

Why are they announcing Kain? He was already in Dissidia.

[McTahr]

Why are they announcing Kain? He was already in Dissidia.

What? IV's cast was Cecil and Golbez in Dissidia, unless he made a cameo that I missed.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

What? IV's cast was Cecil and Golbez in Dissidia, unless he made a cameo that I missed.

Goddammit That was not Cecil! Cecil is a Paladn. Paladins do not jump around like a goddamn mexican jumping beans. Also, contrary to what WoW says, Paladins do not use Spears!

[Nique]

Normal people just don't have the technical knowledge to understand what goes into design decisions.

Arrgh. Blues! No! You're teetering dangerously close to having a 'relevant degree' here.

Really I think they're just coming from the 'Square is gonna do anythang to make a buck here' perspective. Though really I have to agree with you - I just don't see Seifer as being a character anyone would want to play. But then again pickings are slim for good or just consistent villains from FF8.

I'm going to guess that with Lightning being in that they won't want a third gunblade-user anyway. Lightning was almost in the last time around, but she has her own unique abilities from FF13, so they still have more to work with than they do with Seifer.


Actually I see Lightning as a Dissidia character being way too similar to Squall as he ended up with a fair amount of magic attacks himself. But, I mean, maybe she will be his replacement and this game will be like, a bunch of the other A-list they left out from the first one.

[Kim]

Arrgh. Blues! No! You're teetering dangerously close to having a 'relevant degree' here.

This is why I continuously sneeze at his relevant gaming knowledge. Sneeze like a motherfucker.

Really I think they're just coming from the 'Square is gonna do anythang to make a buck here' perspective.Partially that. Partially the fact that fanservice is pretty much the entire point of Dissidia, unless I missed something. I mean, when you make a game about "What if characters from every Final Fantasy beat the shit out of each other?" and don't make an effort to include as many popular characters as possible, something is wrong.

Though really I have to agree with you - I just don't see Seifer as being a character anyone would want to play. But then again pickings are slim for good or just consistent villains from FF8.This too. If you're going to bring in other characters from VIII Seifer is the most logical choice. Rinoa might make it in, but Seifer just seems like a sure bet, especially if they're going for a different roster rather than expanded.

[bluestarultor]

Arrgh. Blues! No! You're teetering dangerously close to having a 'relevant degree' here.

Really I think they're just coming from the 'Square is gonna do anythang to make a buck here' perspective. Though really I have to agree with you - I just don't see Seifer as being a character anyone would want to play. But then again pickings are slim for good or just consistent villains from FF8.

Not my intention. It's just that you don't know what goes into a game until you start trying to make one. I sure as hell didn't, or else I never would have tried it solo. I currently have a full folder system of technical notes and have done graphics, music, sound effects, GUI design, technical research, test projects, idea generation, culls, writing, world design, paper-based balancing, character design, class design, lots of being too fed up to even look at any of it, weapon design and equipment unification, and a whole lot of wondering how I managed to get myself attached to the whole masochistic mess. And I still can't find my own ass with two hands and a flashlight.

As I said, all I have are my own projects, but making a game is like pulling teeth and will have roughly the same effect if you have a habit of grinding them when stressed. There's a lot of stuff I've cut and a lot I've added and a lot I've overhauled to make it all coherent again.

I don't have anything formal in games proper, but I do have personal experience that says making games is a radically different mindset to playing or marketing them and formal experience in what that mindset is. Simply put, a lot of guys take their first programming class thinking playing games qualifies them to make them. They quickly learn how wrong that notion is and drop out of it. It's one of the first things most teachers will tell you on entry. Making games takes all-around design skills, which is why most are made in teams.

In short, I'm a professional programmer. I DO have a relevant degree. I've been writing programs for years now. The same skills apply to both game design and design for business applications. Games just take an extension of the basics.

I just really, really hate to drag it out in these cases.


Actually I see Lightning as a Dissidia character being way too similar to Squall as he ended up with a fair amount of magic attacks himself. But, I mean, maybe she will be his replacement and this game will be like, a bunch of the other A-list they left out from the first one.

That would have been interesting, but a couple of returners are already confirmed. I heard on FFWiki the guy who did Kefka said he's reprising his role, and obviously Cecil is back in from that screen, so I don't think they're removing anyone.

Lightning obviously has her summoning stuff intact with Odin, so they'll likely do something with that to differentiate her. Heck, they may even include a limited form of Paradigm Shift.

[mudah.swf]

From what I've seen, they all have very similar movesets, and the only difference is the emphasis on moves. Best example I can think of is Ryu seems more Hadoken focused, and Ken is more Shoryuken focused.

Generally Ryu is tougher, has a better fireball, stronger dragon punch and is more "solid" than Ken. Ken is more focused on mobility and aggressiveness, generally with one more mobility option, less knockdown moves and more hits on everything, but has a worse dragon punch and a worse fireball.

Taking all this into account, it's entirely possible for Square to make Squall and Seifer both unique from each other, it's just a question of how much they give a shit, and how freely they're prepared to play around and invent moves for him.

[Doc ock rokc]

I hope to god they didn't cut golbez! He is too much of a Badass to not be in the sequel!

[Krylo]

I do have personal experience that says making games is a radically different mindset to playing or marketing them and formal experience in what that mindset is.

I don't really want to get involved in this ridiculous argument over speculation, but, Blues, I don't think you know how game design works out in the corporate (read: real) world. Marketing can often control game design decisions, because management knows that marketing is going to be able to make them more money. Especially in fan service games like Dissidia... or basically any fighting game ever. Marketing is usually involved in decisions on who to put on the roster, and it's the bosses, not the code monkeys, who have final decision after hearing both sides of an argument.

Edit: Personally I'm hoping for Mayor Dobe.

Pacifism style.

Edit Edit: His Ex-Burst would make you feel really bad about playing games that glorify violence.

Edit Edit Edit: All his other moves would involve staggering around and bleeding.

Edit to the power of four: And summoning his wife Flo to holler at you for hitting her husband.

[bluestarultor]

I don't really want to get involved in this ridiculous argument over speculation, but, Blues, I don't think you know how game design works out in the corporate (read: real) world. Marketing can often control game design decisions, because management knows that marketing is going to be able to make them more money. Especially in fan service games like Dissidia... or basically any fighting game ever. Marketing is usually involved in decisions on who to put on the roster, and it's the bosses, not the code monkeys, who have final decision after hearing both sides of an argument.

I know that. But in this case, Seifer doesn't represent a net gain. There's no reason the marketing department would push for him when the last time he mattered was two console generations and more than a decade ago unless fan feedback from the first game demanded it, which I didn't personally see happening. Even then, it says something that the team had enough control the first time around to not include him even after he was in KH. Maybe that's just because nobody was expecting much out of Dissidia, but a look at a lot of design decisions lead back to technical concerns, such as both Sephy and Ultimecia not having carbon copies of their final boss forms to prevent loading mid-battle.

As I said, it's not impossible for Seifer to be in. I'm just saying from a design standpoint Rinoa makes more sense. She has a different set of mechanics to offer and with the assumption that Ultimecia isn't going anywhere, Rinoa can provide a more believable dynamic. After all, Seifer was attached to Edea, not Ultimecia. Rinoa was actually possessed by Ultimecia at one point and therefore has a stronger connection to both her and Squall. Rinoa could very well fall on the side of Chaos in this installation and have a better reason for it than Seifer ever could.

[Krylo]

On the other hand, no one likes Rinoa.

Edit: Pretty much any character who isn't Rinoa is more likely to be put in. It's not like this is a 'IT'S EITHER SEIFER OR RINOA'. It's, 'Either Seifer, or Rinoa, or Zell, or Quistis, or Irving, or Laguna, or Ward, or Kir...' well you get the point.

[Kim]

'Zell, or Quistis, or Irving, or Laguna, or Ward, or Kir...'

People actually care about these characters?

[Krylo]

More than Rinoa.

Edit: Which wouldn't take much. Pretty much everywhere I've seen the game discussed Rinoa is usually seen as an incredibly annoying person. Zell is also seen as annoying, but in a comic relief way. Quistis is the games hot teacher fan service. Selphie is the 'spunky young female character' that is popular with japanese audiences. Etc.

[Kim]

I mean, the reason I'm so convinced Seifer is in is because I honestly can't think of a single other FFVIII character I'd actually believe has a fanbase. Maybe Quistis, but just because of all the porn.

EDIT: TBH, I completely forgot Selphie even existed. VIII didn't have a very memorable cast...

[Krylo]

I could see Zell being a possibility if Tifa wasn't such a better candidate for 'unarmed brawler' from FF7. He wasn't super popular, but a lot of people ended up liking him just because he's so amazing in combat.

But really my point was that if Blues is going to make an argument about Seifer not being put in because he's too similar to Squall, he'd be better served by making that argument and leaving it open who might go in instead, as opposed to choosing one of the least popular characters in the game.

Edit: Still hoping for Mayor Dobe, though.

[Kim]

Tifa's probably going to make it in. Vincent seems an obvious secondary choice, too, though that honestly depends on how many characters per game they're adding.

EDIT: I want Cid to be in the game, and his special ability is changing what Cid he is.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

A Decent FFVIII chaarcter could be Laguna because of his Machine Gun.

I would enjoy seeing Seymour in battle because he could represent a different fighting style.

Oh also, I want the ability to put in my own music without Homebrewing my console please and thankyou.

[Nique]

Kiros = Voldo from soul caliber. Meaning that would be totally awesome.

On the other hand, no one likes Rinoa.

:argh: You're such a hater!

I want Cid to be in the game, and his special ability is changing what Cid he is.

This. Like, so much this. Thread over.

[bluestarultor]

I could see Zell being a possibility if Tifa wasn't such a better candidate for 'unarmed brawler' from FF7. He wasn't super popular, but a lot of people ended up liking him just because he's so amazing in combat.

But really my point was that if Blues is going to make an argument about Seifer not being put in because he's too similar to Squall, he'd be better served by making that argument and leaving it open who might go in instead, as opposed to choosing one of the least popular characters in the game.

To answer your question, Krylo, the debate was between Seifer and Rinoa because they're two of the three main characters. Zell would work just fine on a technical level, but he doesn't carry the same importance as those two. Neither does, well, anyone else, minus Edea, but I doubt they'd choose her.

Really, pretty much anyone BUT Seifer would work well from that game just because they all worked differently. Seifer's really the only one nothing's to be gained from on a diversity level.

Seriously, take your pick. They all have a mechanic that would probably be workable. Some better than others (Quistis obviously has less to offer, but her Blue Magic would definitely be factored in [EDIT:] actually, on second thought, her whip is an asset all on its own), but any of them could work.

Also, just as a side note, but Rinoa was written very differently in the Japanese version. Our benchmark over here doesn't really apply over there. I have no idea how popular she is in Japan.


Edit:
Tifa's probably going to make it in. Vincent seems an obvious secondary choice, too, though that honestly depends on how many characters per game they're adding.

EDIT: I want Cid to be in the game, and his special ability is changing what Cid he is.

I'd say Vincent before Tifa because of DoC. Even in Advent Children/AC Complete, they made sure he had Cerberus, even when the rest of the cast had their default weapons in the flashback and it should have been Quicksilver. Not that there's anything wrong with that. They obviously want him defined by that gun the same way Cloud is defined by the Buster Sword. That's "his" gun. I can't say I'd disagree with his inclusion, either, since, again, he offers a unique play style with not only gun combat, but his various transformations. He seems to have gotten a better handle on them by the time DoC rolls around, so it's not like they'd even have to take control away from the player. Galian Beast could have its fire element and be the speedy one, Death Gigas could keep it's thunder affinity and be a tank, and Hellmasker could be sheer, unbridled melee attack power. Chaos, of course, would be his EX.

[POS Industries]

Tifa's probably going to make it in. Vincent seems an obvious secondary choice, too, though that honestly depends on how many characters per game they're adding.
The only thing that really stands a chance of putting Vincent in the game is Nomura's hard on for belts and zippers, since that's what got him his own game in the first place. Unfortunately, it was a terrible game that everyone hated. Tifa brings more to the table insofar as unique playstyle and fanbase, seeing as she's the franchise's most popular monk and most popular pair of tits, and between Squall, Lightning, the high probability of a FFX-2 styled Yuna, potentially Seifer, and maybe (hopefully) Sazh, we're pretty good for gun users.

And the reason Zack wouldn't get in isn't because his fighting style is exactly like Cloud's. It's because he's dead.

[Kim]

The only thing that really stands a chance of putting Vincent in the game is Nomura's hard on for belts and zippers, since that's what got him his own game in the first place.

I always figured that Vincent was just one of those Squeenix characters who is inexplicably vastly more popular than he deserves. Sorta like... well... Everyone in Kingdom Hearts... It's like, Vincent isn't a very good character, and he's a pedophile, but high schoolers can't get enough of mopey vampires with guns so he's in.

And the reason Zack wouldn't get in isn't because his fighting style is exactly like Cloud's. It's because he's dead.

Honestly, this is all the more reason for him to show up. Cloud's going along being mopey and shit, and then Zach is there for no reason and we get the most awkward reunion ever.

[Flarecobra]

maybe (hopefully) Sazh, we're pretty good for gun users.

Though since Lightning is already covering the FF13 hero side... it'd be some long odds you're betting on there.

And I can't beleve no one's suggested EDGAR from FF6.... he's got the verity of machines at his disposal... He could be the hero's regal counter to the Emperor too.

[POS Industries]

I always figured that Vincent was just one of those Squeenix characters who is inexplicably vastly more popular than he deserves. Sorta like... well... Everyone in Kingdom Hearts... It's like, Vincent isn't a very good character, and he's a pedophile, but high schoolers can't get enough of mopey vampires with guns so he's in.
But you know what high schoolers like even more? Short skirts and bigass titties! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifa_Lockhart)

Anyway, the main reason in favor of Seifer is that he's a popular antagonist that wasn't already in Dissidia, and they're going to want to keep the Chaos and Cosmos rosters even.

Though since Lightning is already covering the FF13 hero side... it'd be some long odds you're betting on there.
Oh, totally. Though I'm guessing that 13 will have the same amount of characters as the other games, which means at least three. One of them will be a villain, and the third could be just about anyone, but it'll probably be Snow. I want Sazh because just look at this magnificent son of a bitch. (http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/4681/sazh.jpg)

And I can't beleve no one's suggested EDGAR from FF6.... he's got the verity of machines at his disposal... He could be the hero's regal counter to the Emperor too.
I've been at work all day, so I haven't gotten a chance to run through the likely FF6 candidates. Edgar would be my first choice for playstyle, but the reality is that Nomura's likely to choose one of the two characters from it he originally designed: Shadow and Setzer, and we already know he loves him some Setzer.

[Kim]

I know. That's why I said he was a likely secondary choice depending on the number of characters per game. Like, they'll put in Tifa, but if they add another FF7 character besides her, it will probably be Vincent.

[POS Industries]

I know. That's why I said he was a likely secondary choice depending on the number of characters per game. Like, they'll put in Tifa, but if they add another FF7 character besides her, it will probably be Vincent.
Yeah, I agree with that. I'm just concerned as to how many more characters from each game they can feasibly add to a PSP UMD.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

As stupid as this sounds, I don't see why they don't simply make this a Ps3 Title on the PSN, then use DLC to add new characters.

[Kim]

@POS: Fair point. We probably won't end up with that many more characters in this game than we had in the first Dissidia. It'll be a different roster, but not much larger in terms of numbers.

[POS Industries]

Fair point. We probably won't end up with that many more characters in this game than we had in the first Dissidia. It'll be a different roster, but not much larger in terms of numbers.
Well, I don't necessarily see them removing any characters, either.

As stupid as this sounds, I don't see why they don't simply make this a Ps3 Title on the PSN, then use DLC to add new characters.
Probably because it's a lot easier to render all the character models for the PSP than PS3.

[Kim]

Well, I don't necessarily see them removing any characters, either.

I think they probably will. At the very least, I doubt Shantotto and Gabranth are going to be in.

[POS Industries]

I think they probably will. At the very least, I doubt Shantotto and Gabranth are going to be in.
No Shantotto == No buy for me.

No Gabranth == No buy for a lot of others.

[Kim]

The "No Gabranth == No buy" group has a lot of cross-over with the "Balthier == Buy" group, I'd expect.

[POS Industries]

Maybe, maybe not. For such a niche series with modest sales, I wouldn't recommend they find out.

Plus, from what I've heard, there's room enough for a reasonable amount of more characters, but there was only so much the developers could make without pushing the release date back forever. It's not like Smash Bros where they had to basically remake the game entirely each time due to it being on a different system each time. It's a PSP sequel to a PSP game, so it stands to reason that they really don't have that much reason to drop character model data that they don't even have to change.

[Liquid Snake]

Wait, wait.

I don't understand this recent logic.

Why not just include all the characters from Dissidia 1, and simply add new characters to the roster?
It's not like we're going to see vastly upgraded graphics in the sequel, as it's also a PSP release. And given the choice between "an entirely new and improved game engine but the same number of different characters" and "the same exact game engine but the size of the cast is doubled", I know which option I'd choose.

[Kim]

Part of the reason I'm thinking we might lose a couple characters is because otherwise the roster might become too unwieldy, especially since the first Dissidia had you play through with every good character to unlock a couple. The idea of a Dissidia story mode that is twice as bloated as the first game's worries me.

[Flarecobra]

Wait, wait.

I don't understand this recent logic.

Why not just include all the characters from Dissidia 1, and simply add new characters to the roster?
It's not like we're going to see vastly upgraded graphics in the sequel, as it's also a PSP release. And given the choice between "an entirely new and improved game engine but the same number of different characters" and "the same exact game engine but the size of the cast is doubled", I know which option I'd choose.

I don't think they'll be dumping any of the main cast, if you ask me.

Though they'd better have more arenas.

[POS Industries]

The game engine doesn't really even need upgraded all that much. Maybe a couple new features, reworking the movesets in favor of linked attack combos instead of, say, chase sequence triggers, allow the capability to break out of said combos other than hitting EX-mode, that sort of stuff. The engine itself is fine, the game just needs some tweaks to deepen the combat.

Part of the reason I'm thinking we might lose a couple characters is because otherwise the roster might become too unwieldy, especially since the first Dissidia had you play through with every good character to unlock a couple. The idea of a Dissidia story mode that is twice as bloated as the first game's worries me.
I would overhaul the story mode entirely, personally. Shit sucked.

[Kim]

I would overhaul the story mode entirely, personally. Shit sucked.

Yes. Yes, it did.

[Liquid Snake]

Part of the reason I'm thinking we might lose a couple characters is because otherwise the roster might become too unwieldy, especially since the first Dissidia had you play through with every good character to unlock a couple. The idea of a Dissidia story mode that is twice as bloated as the first game's worries me.

I don't mind the concept of Dissidia jettisoning some of the original game's characters, but I think the creators would be foolish to get rid of characters like Cloud, Sephiroth (due to their extreme popularity among fanboys) and Kefka (due to his extreme popularity among old-school SNES-era RPG enthusiasts.) Squall's a fair bet to stick around too, even though I fucking hate Squall. (Sorry Nique.)

I could see jettisoning Cecil for Kain (although I would have chosen Rydia), or Terra for another FFVI character, or Zidane for Vivi, or Tidus for Auron (or maybe Rikku, though I think Yuna would be difficult to effectively convert to Dissidia's style.)

My guess is you'll see the series start to play favorites with the FFs, with more popular FFs like FFVII getting more characters in the cast than less popular FFs like FFV. The respective sides will be still be equal in total numbers, and I think every FF still has at least one representative, but you might see only one FFV hero or villain and I think it's a fair bet to assume we'll have at least three and possibly four FFVII characters.

[POS Industries]

Terra for another FFVI character
Considering that she was one of the more popular characters from a pure gameplay perspective (No, seriously, she was pretty heavily maligned by the fanbase for her personality but godDAMN could she blow ship up like a motherfucker) I don't see her getting dropped.

My guess is you'll see the series start to play favorites with the FFs, with more popular FFs like FFVII getting more characters in the cast than less popular FFs like FFV. The respective sides will be still be equal in total numbers, and I think every FF still has at least one representative, but you might see only one FFV hero or villain and I think it's a fair bet to assume we'll have at least three and possibly four FFVII characters.
I doubt it. Equal representation was always a key focus with the first game and it's unlikely they'll change it for the second. 11 and 12 only got one character each because they weren't involved in the story and were officially deemed "bonus characters" as a result.

This isn't like switching Mewtwo for Lucario or something. Ain't no shitstorm like a FF shitstorm.

[Liquid Snake]

I doubt it. Equal representation was always a key focus with the first game and it's unlikely they'll change it for the second.

Still, I won't be shocked if Dissidia 2, at the very least, keeps at least one hero and one villain for every FF installment but gives you a bonus of an additional FFVII hero and an additional FFVII villain. They'd be failing to capitalize on some intense FFVII fanboyism if they didn't.
To a lesser extent, I'd also anticipate a probability of increased FFVI and FFX representation, but I'm basing that largely on the popularity of respective FFs in America and I'm now actually legitimately curious to learn which FFs are more or less popular in Japan.

EDIT: Furthermore, in order to really expand upon the size of the original Dissidia's cast in a substantive way, unless new FFXIII characters are tossed in and that's all, you're probably going to have to add new characters to a few FFs. And since it's unlikely that the roster would be increased to two heroes and two villains for all thirteen Final Fantasies, the more likely outcome is that some FFs will get the ol' favorite treatment.

[Kim]

FFX seems to be one of the most popular FF's in Japan, from what I can tell.

[Archbio]

No votes for Sorceress Adel being added to the roster?

For shame.

[POS Industries]

Furthermore, in order to really expand upon the size of the original Dissidia's cast in a substantive way, unless new FFXIII characters are tossed in and that's all, you're probably going to have to add new characters to a few FFs. And since it's unlikely that the roster would be increased to two heroes and two villains for all thirteen Final Fantasies, the more likely outcome is that some FFs will get the ol' favorite treatment.
That's why I'm guessing 3 for each. One hero, one villain, and then one wild card. Maybe a couple bonus characters from games other than the first 13 like they had with Shantotto and Gabranth in the first, though that might not even be necessary this time around. If they're using roughly the same combat mechanics and stages, and hopefully streamlining the story mode to something far less unwieldy than the original, most of the work they're going to put into it is in implementing the new characters, and with 3 per game it's not even going to be the same number of new characters they had to make the first time around.

Also, they already showed that both Kain and Cecil are in it, and I really doubt that they're going to remove Golbez soooooooooo yeah.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

No votes for Sorceress Adel being added to the roster?

For shame.

That would be the equivalent of putting Necron in the game.

I wouldn't mind seeing Gilgamesh as a player character in the game

[Archbio]

That would be the equivalent of putting Necron in the game.

Equivalently awesome.

[bluestarultor]

The only thing that really stands a chance of putting Vincent in the game is Nomura's hard on for belts and zippers, since that's what got him his own game in the first place. Unfortunately, it was a terrible game that everyone hated. Tifa brings more to the table insofar as unique playstyle and fanbase, seeing as she's the franchise's most popular monk and most popular pair of tits, and between Squall, Lightning, the high probability of a FFX-2 styled Yuna, potentially Seifer, and maybe (hopefully) Sazh, we're pretty good for gun users.

Only half of those actually use guns. Squall and Seifer's gunblades don't actually fire bullets. Unless they changed it when I wasn't looking. I'll be honest and admit my brother is the one with the PSP and the first game and a deathgrip on both, so I've never had the chance to play, but the info on FFWiki indicates that all his ranged skills are magic.

Although I have to admit I didn't consider Yuna being pulled from X-2. That would make a lot more sense, but I guess I was stuck on Seymore not being in there and just assumed they'd find a way for her to be a practical choice as a summoner.


I always figured that Vincent was just one of those Squeenix characters who is inexplicably vastly more popular than he deserves. Sorta like... well... Everyone in Kingdom Hearts... It's like, Vincent isn't a very good character, and he's a pedophile, but high schoolers can't get enough of mopey vampires with guns so he's in.

Vincent is one of those cases of "popularity by mystery." He's totally optional, so he doesn't have much focus in FF7, but he's got a mysterious past that had people asking questions and was given a game so they could be answered. It also helps that he's a vampire and transforms and such and he's bishie enough to catch some of that demographic and cool-looking enough to appeal elsewhere, but looking at his popularity, it's basically because he's Sephy Lite.


Oh, totally. Though I'm guessing that 13 will have the same amount of characters as the other games, which means at least three. One of them will be a villain, and the third could be just about anyone, but it'll probably be Snow. I want Sazh because just look at this magnificent son of a bitch. (http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/4681/sazh.jpg)

I think FF13's members are more up in the air than we're giving them credit for. Snow seems like an obvious choice at first because of his relationship with Lightning and Serah, but he and Light would be constantly at odds, which FF13 takes a chunk of the game to skillfully avoid by taking him out of the equation until both of them can come to terms with things a bit more. Without Serah as a common goal, there's a snowball's chance they'll stick together and aside from that, without Serah two feet away from him at all times, Snow has no motivation and would probably just shut down. Sazh might actually be more likely because they have him playing off Light early on, but he'd still able to manage on his own and is actively questing, i.e. not paralyzed in his search for, Dajh. He'd have the drive to fight to get back home. Fang is another one that might work well. Even though she comes in late, she's already moving around to look for Vanille and gets along with Light as well as anyone could hope.

Basically, half the party is out because they'd just break down and mope (Snow, Hope, Vanille), while the others (Sazh, Light, Fang) are strong enough to handle themselves, and Light is already in.


I've been at work all day, so I haven't gotten a chance to run through the likely FF6 candidates. Edgar would be my first choice for playstyle, but the reality is that Nomura's likely to choose one of the two characters from it he originally designed: Shadow and Setzer, and we already know he loves him some Setzer.

I honestly would have no problem with Setzer. I have a soft spot for cards as a weapon and it would be an interesting way of giving him range while allowing a limit to be imposed before they just fluttered to the ground or returned. Cards DO return if you throw them right, so you'd essentially have a boomerang and could even play with the circuit of fire to increase the effective breadth they could hit within.

Granted, this all hinges on him being played like in FF6 instead of KH, but I still hold onto the hope that the sim-Setzer was non-canon.


Still, I won't be shocked if Dissidia 2, at the very least, keeps at least one hero and one villain for every FF installment but gives you a bonus of an additional FFVII hero and an additional FFVII villain. They'd be failing to capitalize on some intense FFVII fanboyism if they didn't.
To a lesser extent, I'd also anticipate a probability of increased FFVI and FFX representation, but I'm basing that largely on the popularity of respective FFs in America and I'm now actually legitimately curious to learn which FFs are more or less popular in Japan.

EDIT: Furthermore, in order to really expand upon the size of the original Dissidia's cast in a substantive way, unless new FFXIII characters are tossed in and that's all, you're probably going to have to add new characters to a few FFs. And since it's unlikely that the roster would be increased to two heroes and two villains for all thirteen Final Fantasies, the more likely outcome is that some FFs will get the ol' favorite treatment.

I don't think they'll do bonus characters like that. For one, I agree with POS on equal representation. Favoring one game or a couple games will incite the fanbase. Keep in mind that the fanbase is still arguing with the fire of a thousand suns over whether Cloud should be with Aerith or Tifa. Seriously, when FF13 was getting info released, they were arguing over Light vs. Fang and even Light vs. her own original design.

It's not like you could even reasonably get much out of things that way because of how few classes there are that are applied to practically everyone in the series, even if not in name. Once you start counting all of, say, the Monks (Yang, Sabin, Tifa, Zell, Amarant, Snow at a stretch), you start realizing how much overlap there is. Choosing a roster is going to be a balance between who's popular and who has something to offer to gameplay. Tifa and Zell are not liable to end up in the same game, and even less so for Zell and Sabin.



Damn, I'm behind!

[Liquid Snake]

That's why I'm guessing 3 for each. One hero, one villain, and then one wild card. Maybe a couple bonus characters from games other than the first 13 like they had with Shantotto and Gabranth in the first, though that might not even be necessary this time around. If they're using roughly the same combat mechanics and stages, and hopefully streamlining the story mode to something far less unwieldy than the original, most of the work they're going to put into it is in implementing the new characters, and with 3 per game it's not even going to be the same number of new characters they had to make the first time around.

If you're right, I'd wager on:

FFVI: Terra, Kefka, Locke (or Edgar, or reflecting on Nomura's involvement, probably Shadow)
FFVII: Cloud, Sephiroth, Vincent (would be 100% confident with those three, despite the fact that Vincent doesn't deserve it)
FFVIII: Squall, Seifer, and someone random (I'd wager either Rinoa or Laguna, assuming Rinoa might actually be substantially more popular in Japan than she is here.)
FFIX: Zidane, Vivi, Kuja
FFX: Tidus, Jecht, Rikku (I'd prefer Auron, but I think Rikku's the more likely choice for a Japanese audience.)
FFXII: Balthier, Gabranth, Fran (not because Fran is legitimately worthwhile, moreso because Fran's half-bunny and unique compared to Ashe or Penelo.)

Only problem is all my choices add up to two heroes and one villain, but it's not my fault Square Enix has created more memorable protagonists than antagonists.

[Kim]

I'd say Auron is more likely than Rikku, as Auron was in KH2. Don't think Fran would make it in, though she would be an interesting playstyle.

[POS Industries]

Only half of those actually use guns. Squall and Seifer's gunblades don't actually fire bullets. Unless they changed it when I wasn't looking. I'll be honest and admit my brother is the one with the PSP and the first game and a deathgrip on both, so I've never had the chance to play, but the info on FFWiki indicates that all his ranged skills are magic.
He had Fire/Lightning/Ice bullets in Dissidia, at least. They weren't particularly useful for anything more than a ranged poke but they were there.

Although I have to admit I didn't consider Yuna being pulled from X-2. That would make a lot more sense, but I guess I was stuck on Seymore not being in there and just assumed they'd find a way for her to be a practical choice as a summoner.
I figured it was obvious. Fanservice from a fanservice game winding up in another fanservice game the second the developers got the opportunity.


I think FF13's members are more up in the air than we're giving them credit for. Snow seems like an obvious choice at first because of his relationship with Lightning and Serah, but he and Light would be constantly at odds, which FF13 takes a chunk of the game to skillfully avoid by taking him out of the equation until both of them can come to terms with things a bit more. Without Serah as a common goal, there's a snowball's chance they'll stick together and aside from that, without Serah two feet away from him at all times, Snow has no motivation and would probably just shut down. Sazh might actually be more likely because they have him playing off Light early on, but he'd still able to manage on his own and is actively questing, i.e. not paralyzed in his search for, Dajh. He'd have the drive to fight to get back home. Fang is another one that might work well. Even though she comes in late, she's already moving around to look for Vanille and gets along with Light as well as anyone could hope.

Basically, half the party is out because they'd just break down and mope (Snow, Hope, Vanille), while the others (Sazh, Light, Fang) are strong enough to handle themselves, and Light is already in.
I wouldn't at all be opposed to Fang, myself, but she's got a lot of overlap with Kain in more than a couple ways, I'd imagine. Also, apparently Nomura was on record as considering Sazh a strong candidate for a FF13 representative even all the way back during Dissidia 1's production, so he's got that going for him.

Though apparently Locke was, as well, but they'd really have to design him from the ground up since his abilities in FF6 didn't really leave a lot to work with, and anything he could conceivably do, Zidane can probably do better.

I honestly would have no problem with Setzer. I have a soft spot for cards as a weapon and it would be an interesting way of giving him range while allowing a limit to be imposed before they just fluttered to the ground or returned. Cards DO return if you throw them right, so you'd essentially have a boomerang and could even play with the circuit of fire to increase the effective breadth they could hit within.

Granted, this all hinges on him being played like in FF6 instead of KH, but I still hold onto the hope that the sim-Setzer was non-canon.
Well, Dissidia was pretty good about keeping any of the KH nonsense out, so I think he could be done pretty well, and gambler mechanics would be a really swanky addition to the game.

FFVIII: Squall, Seifer, and someone random (I'd wager either Rinoa or Laguna, assuming Rinoa might actually be substantially more popular in Japan than she is here.)
Ultimecia's already grandfathered in from the first game, bro.

[bluestarultor]

If you're right, I'd wager on:

FFVI: Terra, Kefka, Locke (or Edgar)
FFVII: Cloud, Sephiroth, Vincent (would be 100% confident with those three, despite the fact that Vincent doesn't deserve it)
FFVIII: Squall, Seifer, and someone random (I'd wager either Rinoa or Laguna, assuming Rinoa might actually be substantially more popular in Japan than she is here.)
FFIX: Zidane, Vivi, Kuja
FFX: Tidus, Jecht, Rikku (I'd prefer Auron, but I think Rikku's the more likely choice for a Japanese audience.)
FFXII: Balthier, Gabranth, Fran (not because Fran is legitimately worthwhile, moreso because Fran's half-bunny and unique compared to Ashe or Penelo.)

Only problem is all my choices add up to two heroes and one villain, but it's not my fault Square Enix has created more memorable protagonists than antagonists.

See, I think it would be more interesting to try to include swing characters. To demonstrate:

FFVI: Terra, Kefka, Celes - Celes is on both sides during the game and might switch over in Dissidia.

FFVII: Cloud, Sephiroth, Vincent - no argument here, as there is no swing character (minus Cait Sith, but AHAHAHAHA!).

FFVIII: Squall, Ultimecia, Rinoa/Seifer - Ultimecia was in last time, Rinoa was possessed by her and may be a source of conflict for Squall if she is in here. Seifer has no loyalty to Ultimecia and is Squall's rival, but not above joining him.

FFIX: Zidane, Vivi, Kuja - this one makes sense, but I have concerns over Vivi's abilities. FF9's swing would be Amarant, but I doubt they'd choose him over Vivi. Vivi and Zidane have a strong dynamic anyway.

FFX: Tidus, Jecht, ??? - this assumes Jecht isn't replaced, but if they add Yuna, they might switch him for Seymore. Jecht would be the obvious swing, but he's got nobody to oppose and I don't know if just fighting alongside his son for the sake of it would work well. Yuna has a beef with Seymore, though, and Tidus would join her against him in a heartbeat.

FFXII: Vaan, Gabranth, Vayne - we all know their hands are going to be tied to use Vaan. They were tied in the game itself. Gabranth would act as a swing and switch sides given the right reasons/motivation/push and Vayne is the main antagonist, so he'd be in. If we're being optimistic, replace Vaan with Ashe or Basch, since they have actual reasons to fight Vayne and Basch has the bonus of maybe turning his brother.

[Liquid Snake]

See, I think it would be more interesting to try to include swing characters. To demonstrate:

FFVII: Cloud, Sephiroth, Vincent - no argument here, as there is no swing character (minus Cait Sith, but AHAHAHAHA!).


Actually, by your logic there Cloud, Sephiroth and Tifa might make more sense with Cloud as the "swing character." (Possessed and/or manipulated by Sephiroth.)

[POS Industries]

He's got you there, Bluesy!

EDIT: Oh man, I just remembered bonus days! Yeah, turn that shit off in PvP battles, plox.

[RobinStarwing]

First off...I never played Dissidia BUT I am a long time FF fan since FF6 (played it as 3 on the SNES) and I own Revenant Wings.

If I was going to do the list, this is how I would do it...I am only listing the games I'VE personally played...matched as well as possible by hero-villian counterparts.

FFIV> Cecil, Kain, Golbez, Zeromus
FFVI> Terra (SHE'S HOT!!!), Celes, Kefka, Geshtal, Edgar, Cyan
FFX> Tidus, Jecht, Yuna (FFX-2 Gunmage-See Below), Seymour, Auron, Lady Yunalesca
FFX2> Paine, Barralai, Rikku, Gippal, Yuna(again), Leblanc
FF12> Basch, Gabranth, Balthier, Cid, Ba'Gamnan, Fran

Reason for FF6 getting only two villians to four heroes is that I happen to like Edgar and Cyan. ^_^*** That and that one was a tad short on villians.

Reason for Yuna getting two is that she is covered in two games with a villian counterpart in each one so I went with a Main Plot villian and than one that wasn't so important to the plot (in this case...Leblanc. Hated her to hell!)

Oh and yes...I do think Terra Branford is the sexiest Final Fantasy Dame ever created!

http://thumbs2.modthesims.info/img/9/0/5/7/3/1/MTS2_laaaaaaaa_1042333_Terra-ref.jpg

She is sexy! Her Morph Form is Sexy! And give her Atmaweapon, Man-Eater, and the Genji Glove than Morph her and you got a one woman killing machine!:dance::3:

[POS Industries]

From the comments section of one of John D. Cullum's (Kuja's English VA) youtube videos: (http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments=1&v=-oqyA2ebE8Y)

I recorded the sequel about three weeks ago and it went much more smoothly than the original sessions. I hope that I was able to bring a bit more depth to the character. There may still be room for improvement but it felt as if I'd done a better job. The feedback I've gotten from fans (both supportive and critical) encouraged me to pay closer attention to my portrayal...
I would imagine they'd be finished with recording by now.
Well, Kuja confirmed for Brawl Dissidia at least.

[EVILNess]

I would love to see the Blackbelt and one of the Fiends (FIRE) from one, Leon or Minwu and the other Emperor you fight in the side story for Dawn of Souls from two, have Luneth not just be a costume from three, Kain is fine from four although I would rather see Yang or Cid, Faris definitely from five, Celes or Locke from six, Tifa, Red XII, and Rufus from seven, Quitsis from eight, Steiner from nine, Auron and Seymour from ten, and Balthier from 12.

I would love to see Ramza from FFT thrown in there somewhere as well.

[bluestarultor]

Actually, by your logic there Cloud, Sephiroth and Tifa might make more sense with Cloud as the "swing character." (Possessed and/or manipulated by Sephiroth.)

He's got you there, Bluesy!

EDIT: Oh man, I just remembered bonus days! Yeah, turn that shit off in PvP battles, plox.

Nope! Cloud isn't manipulated by Sephy; he's manipulated by Jenova. Jenova isn't in this game. :dance:


In all seriousness, Cloud isn't going to be a swing character because he's supposed to be the hero and has already fought for the good guys. Jenova's control over him is always temporary and could be argued to heavily rely on his already-fractured psyche, which is ambiguous in the context of Dissidia because it never comes up to my knowledge and it's indicated Aerith is already dead at the point in the game he came from.

[POS Industries]

And Jenova's manipulated by Sephiroth!

We're just cutting out the middle-alien! :knowledge:

[bluestarultor]

And Jenova's manipulated by Sephiroth!

We're just cutting out the middle-alien! :knowledge:

Technically, there are some pretty strong indications that it's the other way around, given that Jenova holds control over anything containing her cells. Sephiroth was made with them and thus falls under that category, along with some visual hints in the final battle where it supposedly looks like Jenova's arms are moving like a puppeteer's above Sephy's head, not that I've seen it for myself.

Regardless, see my edit.

[Regulus Tera]

Yeah, I agree with that. I'm just concerned as to how many more characters from each game they can feasibly add to a PSP UMD.

Get rid of the dull overtly long character pieces from the story mode that nobody liked and you get rid of almost twenty hours of voice acting and cutscene data that's ultimately pointless.

That should free enough space for another ten characters or so.

[bluestarultor]

Get rid of the dull overtly long character pieces from the story mode that nobody liked and you get rid of almost twenty hours of voice acting and cutscene data that's ultimately pointless.

That should free enough space for another ten characters or so.

Actually, a better estimate would be that it frees up as much data for characters as would be spread across the average amount of data for move sets and battle lines. Speaking completely out of my ass, I'd guess that all data treated equal, the average character takes roughly 5 minutes worth of data, so the real benefit would be somewhere in the rough ballpark of 240, being generous. Even if it's closer to 10, that's still 120 characters.


*edited*

[Regulus Tera]

I'm wondering if we'll finally get a catgirl, considering this is coming out after FFXIV.

[POS Industries]

They had catgirls in FFXI too, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Regulus Tera]

They had catgirls in FFXI too, so I wouldn't hold your breath.


We didn't get them only because Nomura or whomever had a midget fetish. It's time to serve another audience.

[Nique]

Sheesh thread exploded wile I was away.

Firstly;

Unfortunately, it was a terrible game that everyone hated

I loved DoC. I mean, I'm not saying it wasn't flawed ... Janky camera if i remember... but it was a lot of fun so I don't know where this is coming from.

Now, going back and forth through all the speculation here, I think it's probably going to be pretty hard to predict who else might show up. I mean, for one the game isn't going to worry about specific details from the character's original games so much as attempting to reflect the vague-ass 'spirit' of the original. That means dead characters like Aerith could make an appearance regardless of how much sense it makes, and Sephiroth could manipulate Cloud, etc. Really whatever they wanted to do.

And as far as picking characters it seems that the villain lineup was created to properly motivate the heroes. So Jecht instead of Seymore or Sin, Golbez instead of whoever FFIV's actual villain was. The only one I can't really figure out is Ultimecia over some modified version of Seifer. I might agree with blues about not duplicating Squall's fighting style, but Ultimecia seemed very similar to Cloud of Darkness as a floaty mage-thing so I dunno.

I'd like to see a really comprehensive lineup but here's my picks, assuming they will do another even lineup of hero/villain from each game:

FF
Hero: Red Mage
Villain: Astos

FF II
Hero: Maria
Villain: Leon (probably a swing character like Jecht or Golbez)

FF III
Hero: Possibly Luneth but maybe Refia as a female Onion Knight ala' the DS release.
Villain: Xande (the only other effective main villain)

FFIV
Hero: Kain (Since they already revealed it)
Villain: Zemus

FFV
Hero: Farris becuase she is a badass
Villain: Gilgamesh becuase he makes appearances in other FFs so that could make for interesting reactions from the other heroes

FFVI
Hero: Locke
Villain: Celes

FFVII
Hero: Tifa. I don't think they're going to bother making guns trying to work in this game so Barret and Vincent are out.
Villain: Jenova in one of her more attractive forms, with the tentacle monsters being an EX form

FFVIII
Hero: Rinoa. Fuck you, that's why.
Villain: I'm gonna say Seifer becuase choosing Edea would be stupid

FFIX
Hero: I honestly don't know anyone who doesn't like Vivi
Villain: General Beatrix seems possible but isn't she basically a Celes clone?

FFX
Hero: Auron
Villain: Seymore

FFXII
Hero: Fran. Please oh please let it be Fran.
Villain: Vayne, probably.

Seems like some characters from DoC, X-2, or some of the other spin offs could make an appearance too.

[mudah.swf]

The solution to all the space issues is the port the game to an actual console. Even an XBLA/PSN release will do.

[Nique]

XBLA

Shut. Your. Ugly. Face.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

FFVI
Villain: Celes
.

Huh? I mean she used to work for the empire and there's the whole "is she a traitor for the empire" bit but she pretty much out and out a hero.
Villain should totally be Ultros.

[bluestarultor]

The solution to all the space issues is the port the game to an actual console. Even an XBLA/PSN release will do.

I really don't think space is that much of an issue.



@Nique: Why Auron of all people? He's not even that interesting of a character and furthermore has no real motivations in the game aside from throwing Tidus to the wolves at the start (which is part of why he bores me). The guy is totally just along for the ride.

If they did maybe SIN somehow, he might have a reason, but Auron cares as much about Seymore as he does about Blitzball, which is to say maybe a little, but not at the top of his list by a long shot. He doesn't even properly work with human Jecht, because without the guy already being SIN, he doesn't have anyone to save from being an evil whale.



@Smarty: Ultros was already a summon in the first one. All things considered, Celes could be as good as anyone if they find some way to make her Runic translate well. FF6 is hard because while everyone has their own special abilities, most of them are just unique implementations of tread ground.



Edit:
Actually, looking at it, Celes has a LOT of buffs: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Celes#Spells

That alone might help make her play differently from Terra. She could take on a much more physical role and still have magic to work with.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Again, Auron is gigantically popular.
It probably be Yuna for fanservice/ she's reasonably popular too.

My problem with Celes is not putting her in the game but putting her in as a villain when she isn't one.

[mudah.swf]

I dunno man, Dissidia 1 came pretty close to filling up the UMD I think, and if they don't remove all the fancy cinematics and voice acting I can't se them being able to get much more in. I just think the series as a whole is really limited on a handheld platform, being on a console would give Square so much more room to really make it a great series, and it'll give the game even more appeal outside of Japan, since Square couldn't wriggle out of giving the game real online features and would have way more room for characters, new game mechanics and fancy graphics.

[Nique]

Huh? I mean she used to work for the empire and there's the whole "is she a traitor for the empire" bit but she pretty much out and out a hero.

Like Jecht she isn't truly a villain at any point, just misguided. Could be interesting to have someone so benign on the side of Chaos.

Also I really liked Auron actually and I felt Dissidia lacked a decent Samurai/ sword-wielding heavy-hitter character.

[bluestarultor]

I dunno man, Dissidia 1 came pretty close to filling up the UMD I think, and if they don't remove all the fancy cinematics and voice acting I can't se them being able to get much more in. I just think the series as a whole is really limited on a handheld platform, being on a console would give Square so much more room to really make it a great series, and it'll give the game even more appeal outside of Japan, since Square couldn't wriggle out of giving the game real online features and would have way more room for characters, new game mechanics and fancy graphics.

The issue is that the PSP is the cheapest game system to develop for with the power they wanted right now. Game mechanics aren't really guilty of taking up a lot of space since it's all compiled code. Graphics eat time and money.

Really, a good chunk of the data is probably sound, to be honest. Graphics take up a lot, but I'll bet that with the sheer amount of voice in the first one that the sound took up more, or at least roughly as much.

Pare out the extra lines in just battle and it's maybe less interesting, but it probably also frees up a third of the sound data. A buttload of them are just for random variation. The situational lines can stay if they're really considered key, but even those could be pared down to who has importance in the context of their individual stories.

[mudah.swf]

I was meaning more mechanics in the sense that more buttons = better controls and more room to implement more stuff without forcing players to hold down multiple buttons at once, which isn't comfortable on the PSP. The thing about paring out the voices and lines is that, willl Square want to? They're aiming for an RPG/Action game hybrid with story as a central part of the game, I don't see Square not creating fancy cutscene and recording hours of voice acting and turning the story mode into a slideshow, somehow.

[bluestarultor]

I was meaning more mechanics in the sense that more buttons = better controls and more room to implement more stuff without forcing players to hold down multiple buttons at once, which isn't comfortable on the PSP. The thing about paring out the voices and lines is that, willl Square want to? They're aiming for an RPG/Action game hybrid with story as a central part of the game, I don't see Square not creating fancy cutscene and recording hours of voice acting and turning the story mode into a slideshow, somehow.

I'll disagree and say there's a law of diminishing returns on more buttons being better. For one, I'll come right out and say the fact that we've resorted to using L3 and R3 as standard practice for the PS line is something that never should have been. They're just not very good buttons. If you have an ergonomic controller like the Intec Stormchaser, I'd say you can get away with (but should feel no reason to have) a pair of extra face buttons to bring the total to 6.

That's the absolute maximum. The standard PS controller was designed well in terms of the number of inputs. 4 face buttons is all people can be reasonably expected to handle in a fast-paced setting like Dissidia, and I actually think that fighting games NEED fewer buttons, so removing L/R2-3 serves it BETTER. With the emphasis on combos, forcing developers to work with fewer buttons means less complication. Even if you removed combos from the equation, fewer buttons means less to keep track of in a situation where fractions of a second count. Evil Zone, despite all its flaws, is easily my favorite fighting game because it uses a simple, but deep combo system that offers an adequate breadth of moves, and it does it all on one button for attacks and one to block.

In short, fighting games, in my opinion, are served better by FEWER buttons because it improves reaction time and lowers the learning curve. More is not always better. You reach a point where it becomes bloat.

[Kim]

Like Jecht she isn't truly a villain at any point, just misguided.

Yes, but you actually have an epic boss fight against him, with build-up to it and everything. This is not true of Celes.

Fewer buttons means less to keep track of in a situation where fractions of a second count.Blues, that is not how that works. At all.

[Regulus Tera]

The solution to all the space issues is the port the game to an actual console. Even an XBLA/PSN release will do.


I hope it gets ported to 3DS just to spite you.

[Kim]

3DS cartridges still have more space than a PSP UMD! (Though that would still be a terrible idea)

[Nique]

In short, fighting games, in my opinion, are served better by FEWER buttons because it improves reaction time and lowers the learning curve. More is not always better. You reach a point where it becomes bloat.

Blues, that is not how that works. At all.

Yeah actually I'm not quite following either.

Like 'Press A, B, C, B, B, B, A' for a finishing move is better than 'Press D' for a finishing move'?

Really the number of buttons should only be limited by what the human hand can control, so there's some effective upper limit, sure. But I think a fighting game is served more by good/consistent/simplified internal controls, rather than the gamepad itself.

So like, yeah I mean the SNES controller is pretty much the best IMO but the joysticks on the PS pads are useful too, especially since the usually just replace the D-Pad rather add more necessary functions.

[Regulus Tera]

3DS cartridges still have more space than a PSP UMD! (Though that would still be a terrible idea)

I cast Ultima on your face.

[bluestarultor]

I guess I wasn't really clear. Let me complicate things a bit. XD

Having more buttons is fine. You just have to rely on them being used responsibly. Hadoken is a quarter circle and punch for a reason. Something like D-pad Up, Left Analog Down, Right Stick Full Circle, Triangle, R3, L1+L2, Analog/Home is an irresponsible use of button inputs. Obviously, that example is intentionally atrocious, but you get the idea. Having a button to perform a single simple action is ideal.

It's a matter of balance. Control schemes tend to shine because of their limitations. A PC fighting game that abused the keyboard and assigned a function to every key would have many simple actions. They'd be easy to execute, but it's a lot to keep track of. Limiting to one button like Evil Zone is workable, but limits depth. Adding more moves without resorting to range and timing factors to determine the effects like Evil Zone did would be prohibitively difficult.

So when I say a fighting game needs fewer buttons, I mean that the balance of the average kicker favors close to what the average controller sports, minus a few. All buttons are within easy reach and you have enough to designate simple functions to some of them. Your triggers are generally going to take those roles because combos are easier to execute with the face buttons. Not all inputs need to be used.

In this case, the PSP has a good number of buttons for the game. You have the D-pad and analog slider, 2 triggers, and 4 face buttons, which, if you're being responsible with your move set, is consistent with what you'll need. Putting a fighting game on a console just to take advantage of having more buttons provides only marginal benefit at best with the addition to L/R2, which are best used for single actions. Not having them to work with doesn't hurt much.




Why I said what I did how I did is because of my personal preference. It used to be that developers used only the controls they needed for their idea and a lot of inputs (at least for the PS1) weren't used. They designed the controls around the game and games were simpler. That's fine in its own way, but wastes potential when too much goes unused. With newer games, it's rare to see one that leaves anything but the triggers and L/R3 out of the mix. The face buttons are always used, usually L/R1 are used, and often so are L/R2. I'm not saying that devs are working to fill all the inputs with functions, but it's a normal, sensible practice to design the game around the controller, which implicitly encourages more of the inputs to be used. It's a different way of thinking and it better takes advantage of the hardware. The balance is better up to a certain point.

On the other hand, when games have controls adequate to fly a space shuttle, I get particularly irked. Things like expecting the player to switch between the analog sticks and the D-pad and face buttons can work just fine, but they need to be implemented right. Expecting the player to do rapid, constant switching isn't reasonable because humans only have so much coordination. R-stick for the camera works fine because players can leave the camera alone safely enough to use the face buttons. On the other hand, abusing R3 is a dangerous prospect. If R3 is a prominent control, which I've seen in some games, the time it takes to use it takes away from time that the player can use the face buttons, which are more convenient. It's like DS games that expect you to have a third arm for the stylus. There is only a certain amount of finesse that can be reasonably expected from the player and which developers need to design for.



Control schemes need to be adequately elegant to both provide the desired functions and maintain usability. Different genres need different balances. An MMORPG is better served by more buttons, while a kicker is served by fewer. An RPG can get by on even fewer than that.

Saying "more buttons are better" isn't a true statement. You don't need more buttons; you need the right amount. Too many leads to overload, while too few leads to unnecessary limitations.

[Kim]

I have never seen a fighting game force use of R3 or L3. I doubt Squeenix would be the first to do it. The reason Mudah said he'd prefer the PS3 is because of L2 and R2, because then you'd have fewer instances where you have to hold multiple buttons at a time. Having more buttons, like the PS3 controller provides, is preferable to holding multiple buttons at a time to accomplish something. I've played too many games that would be better on a console because the console controls would be preferable but instead we get it crammed and squeezed onto a portable system. Your talk about how simplicity is best is more an argument in favor of the more buttons solution than against it.

[bluestarultor]

I have never seen a fighting game force use of R3 or L3. I doubt Squeenix would be the first to do it. The reason Mudah said he'd prefer the PS3 is because of L2 and R2, because then you'd have fewer instances where you have to hold multiple buttons at a time. Having more buttons, like the PS3 controller provides, is preferable to holding multiple buttons at a time to accomplish something. I've played too many games that would be better on a console because the console controls would be preferable but instead we get it crammed and squeezed onto a portable system. Your talk about how simplicity is best is more an argument in favor of the more buttons solution than against it.

First off, I never said a fighting game would use L/R3, but other games do, and not always responsibly. Second, if a game suffers because there aren't enough buttons, then we're back to not designing the game around the controller. Thirdly, I specifically said that simplicity is a balance. Trying to argue that a single button press is always better than multiple presses is naive. It depends on what limbs are being used and how many buttons they're responsible for, which is a much higher ratio for the thumbs than for the fingers.



In the case of a fighting game, the question really is why you'd desperately need the extra shoulder buttons. First off, it's only 2 buttons. They might be nice to have if they're lying around, but you already have 6 buttons to work with, and the shoulder buttons are easy to operate independently of movement and the face buttons. Counting the shoulder buttons as a separate group, having 2 allows you 3 easy press combinations: one, the other, or both. Having 4 raises that to 4 + top (2) + bottom (2) + left (2) + right (2) + diagonal (2) + all but one (4) + all (1) = 19 possible presses, which is excessive in any context. In a fighting game, probably only single buttons (and possibly the top and/or bottom pairs) will ever be used, meaning the most likely scenario is that with 2 buttons, you're only short one input and sacrifice zero ease of execution because the shoulders are all your index fingers ever do and each finger is only responsible for one button. If you really need the top and/or bottom presses with the 4-trigger setup, you're already delving into unnecessary complexity and need to consider whether or not your systems should be pared down. If you have 5 functions that aren't covered by the face buttons and combinations thereof when the most simple attacks you should ever need in a punch/kick setup is 6 buttons (in which case you'd have only 3 extra functions), you have to ask yourself if you're addressing accessibility. If you're on a handheld, your first question should be whether you really need medium punch/kick even BEFORE you start planning out other systems.


It all boils down to optimization, making the best use of what you have. There is a gradient of marginal benefits that need to be weighed. It's not all black and white.

[POS Industries]

You guys are overcomplicating things. The real reason it can't be put on the PS3 or 360 is because I can't afford that shit so shut the fuck up, assholes.

[bluestarultor]

So, uh, yeah, uhhh... SPOILERS!

Cosmos is alive at the end of Dissidia in the secret ending. Chaos is assumed dead, but bad guys don't always stay that way.

How do you all think they're going to work with this? Will there be two new forces? Who might they be?

[mudah.swf]

Just a polite question: Why on earth are you bringing traditional fighting games into this? Dissidia doesn't control like any of them, it plays differently, it has nothing in common with them except you deplete another guy's health bar. Traditional fighting games have almost always been built around a 3-6 button arcade stick and also tend to include various button combinations, but they're not bad because the layout of the controller makes stuff like that easy to do. It's when they're ported to consoles and thus become playable on pad they get uncomfortable to play.

Dissidia has a whole host of different functions, such as camera control, 360 degree movement, an individual block button, a button for running around on the environment, a button for jumping and two attack buttons, as well as a button combination for EX-Bursting and a button for disabling the lock-on feature. All these use every single button on the PSP already, and if the bars in that one scan are any indication, Square are adding MORE stuff, which would need at least a two-button combination to activate unless Square remove some functions, which I doubt they'll do. Considering that the PSP is a small machine with a somewhat cramped button configuration and one analog slider, I personally think that Square would be better served with a console controller that has real room for what they want to add, rather than making the player put up with another button combination.

But I do see your point, Blue. In fact, thinking about it more I would say that the button layout itself matters a lot too. Fighting games can be played comfortably on a stick, but not so much a controller. It was even worse on early handheld systems, where fighting game ports could only use two, maybe 4 buttons, so had to use a terrible control scheme involving holding buttons (such as the Gameboy SF2 port) or removing normals entirely, thus limiting what a character can do, and in the case of characters with PPP/KKK moves, removing them entirely.

I believe we're getting more than a little bit off topic now. I'll give a list of things I'd like to see changed in Dissidia 2:

-Faster attacks or changed Dodge mechanics, so you can actually hit people or not get massively punished for ANY whiffed attack.
-The total removal of the Chase sequences, they add nothing to the game.
-Faster EX meter growth maybe? Make it rise with hits taken or something.
-More combos! Implement some form of damage scaling to prevent people building up masses of Brave with a single combo and then whacking you with an unavoiable HP attack, which wouldn't be very fun.
-Remove levelling and have some other form of progression, or give players in multiplayer matches an option to boost their characters to equal levels.
-ONLINE PLAY, JESUS CHRIST I CAN'T EXPRESS HOW IMPORTANT THAT IS. SO MUCH SO THAT I'M TYPING IN CAPS.

[POS Industries]

-Faster attacks or changed Dodge mechanics, so you can actually hit people or not get massively punished for ANY whiffed attack.
-The total removal of the Chase sequences, they add nothing to the game.
-Faster EX meter growth maybe? Make it rise with hits taken or something.
-More combos! Implement some form of damage scaling to prevent people building up masses of Brave with a single combo and then whacking you with an unavoiable HP attack, which wouldn't be very fun.
-Remove levelling and have some other form of progression, or give players in multiplayer matches an option to boost their characters to equal levels.
-ONLINE PLAY, JESUS CHRIST I CAN'T EXPRESS HOW IMPORTANT THAT IS. SO MUCH SO THAT I'M TYPING IN CAPS.
Pretty much seconding all of this. I'm okay with not completely removing chase sequences but I would like to see the number of moves that trigger them greatly reduced and replaced with link attack triggers, balanced out by a way to break out of attack links other than hitting EX-mode. Maybe something like a mini EX-guard that drains away some of your EX gauge in the process?

[bluestarultor]

Just a polite question: Why on earth are you bringing traditional fighting games into this? Dissidia doesn't control like any of them, it plays differently, it has nothing in common with them except you deplete another guy's health bar. Traditional fighting games have almost always been built around a 3-6 button arcade stick and also tend to include various button combinations, but they're not bad because the layout of the controller makes stuff like that easy to do. It's when they're ported to consoles and thus become playable on pad they get uncomfortable to play.

Dissidia has a whole host of different functions, such as camera control, 360 degree movement, an individual block button, a button for running around on the environment, a button for jumping and two attack buttons, as well as a button combination for EX-Bursting and a button for disabling the lock-on feature. All these use every single button on the PSP already, and if the bars in that one scan are any indication, Square are adding MORE stuff, which would need at least a two-button combination to activate unless Square remove some functions, which I doubt they'll do. Considering that the PSP is a small machine with a somewhat cramped button configuration and one analog slider, I personally think that Square would be better served with a console controller that has real room for what they want to add, rather than making the player put up with another button combination.

But I do see your point, Blue. In fact, thinking about it more I would say that the button layout itself matters a lot too. Fighting games can be played comfortably on a stick, but not so much a controller. It was even worse on early handheld systems, where fighting game ports could only use two, maybe 4 buttons, so had to use a terrible control scheme involving holding buttons (such as the Gameboy SF2 port) or removing normals entirely, thus limiting what a character can do, and in the case of characters with PPP/KKK moves, removing them entirely.

Well, as (hopefully) the last word on this, my reasons are twofold: 1.) because, as I admitted, I have never had the opportunity to actually play Dissidia despite it having been a fixture in our house since shortly after its release, and 2.) because the same idea applies when considering controls regardless.

Simply put, when you start making a game, you look at the controls you have to work with and cater your design choices to that. If you change platforms, you may need to rework your systems to fit the control scheme. DOS games abused Ctrl, Shift, and Alt because those are the only 3 keys on the keyboard that are able to register alongside other keys by default. You otherwise had to go through the mess of directly accessing the hardware and writing tons of code to allow multiple interrupts and it was just easier to use those in combination with other keys and each other. When you have 6 gameplay buttons, Start, Select, a D-pad, and a stick, you (hopefully) work that into your calculations.

Button combinations don't necessarily have to be painful, either. Slamming both shoulders is a quick and easy action that takes two fingers otherwise not doing anything, for instance.

As for the controls in Dissidia, FFWiki doesn't have them, so I really don't know how they handle. We have zero info on the new bar, so there's no indication if what it does will even need a button press. We'll just have to wait to find out, but I'm sure they'll try to make the command as painless as possible (or as painful as balance requires).

I believe we're getting more than a little bit off topic now. I'll give a list of things I'd like to see changed in Dissidia 2:

-Faster attacks or changed Dodge mechanics, so you can actually hit people or not get massively punished for ANY whiffed attack.
-The total removal of the Chase sequences, they add nothing to the game.
-Faster EX meter growth maybe? Make it rise with hits taken or something.
-More combos! Implement some form of damage scaling to prevent people building up masses of Brave with a single combo and then whacking you with an unavoiable HP attack, which wouldn't be very fun.
-Remove levelling and have some other form of progression, or give players in multiplayer matches an option to boost their characters to equal levels.
-ONLINE PLAY, JESUS CHRIST I CAN'T EXPRESS HOW IMPORTANT THAT IS. SO MUCH SO THAT I'M TYPING IN CAPS.

I think keeping a level system is actually a good idea, to be honest. It just doesn't have to be a grind. Or maybe instead of 99 levels, they could limit it to fewer, like, say, 10. That would let them keep some character growth while also letting them store less data and providing easier points to introduce new skills. They'd need to rework the stats, I'm sure, to keep the disparity down, but if there's anything useful I learned from looking at FFWiki pages, it's that your game calculations don't exactly need to bend reality. A simple, elegant formula will get you much further than all the astrophysics in the world if you want pretty numbers.

[Kim]

Get rid of equipment cuz goddamn son.

[POS Industries]

Get rid of equipment cuz goddamn son.
I disagree. The customization options were one of the best parts of the games in terms of strategy. A better alternative would be to make the good equipment less of a pain to get, or remove the actual hard stat bonuses from equipment pieces in favor of additional effects. Or both, frankly.

Keep the customization, remove the grind and resultant gear divide.

[Kim]

Okay, yeah, I can get behind customization. I just don't like the idea that someone is going to have the game weighted in their favor because they got all the special fusing items to get the super special awesome accessory.

[POS Industries]

True, though it counterbalances out with the artifact equipment feature, which basically rewards you for playing against other people by giving you exact copies of their gear pieces with additional effects. It makes starting out in PvP matches something of a pain, but after enough time spent getting your ass wrecked you'll be running around in the exact same gear as them.

But this becomes problematic for tournaments where you have to accommodate for the fact that not everyone showing up is going to be a hardened online warrior and you have to dump equips entirely anyway. So something that better streamlines the process so that everyone can play the game as intended in a competitive environment would be for the best.

[mudah.swf]

[quote]As for the controls in Dissidia, FFWiki doesn't have them, so I really don't know how they handle. We have zero info on the new bar, so there's no indication if what it does will even need a button press. We'll just have to wait to find out, but I'm sure they'll try to make the command as painless as possible (or as painful as balance requires).

Dissidia had the following scheme:

Square: HP attack
Triangle: General run-around-on-walls button
Circle: Brave attack
Cross: Jump
DPad: Camera
Slider: Movement
L: Something I forget, maybe lock-on.
R: Guard
Select: I forgot what this does.
Start: Pause.
R+X+slider direction: Dodge.
R+Square: EX Burst I think, or maybe it was L+Square
R+Triangle: Dash straight to locked-on object, once you had the skill required.
There was another combination for triggering a Summon but I forget what it was.

A pretty crammed scheme already. Admittedly it worked alright as it was, but anything more I can see becoming a bit unwieldy.


I think keeping a level system is actually a good idea, to be honest. It just doesn't have to be a grind. Or maybe instead of 99 levels, they could limit it to fewer, like, say, 10. That would let them keep some character growth while also letting them store less data and providing easier points to introduce new skills. They'd need to rework the stats, I'm sure, to keep the disparity down, but if there's anything useful I learned from looking at FFWiki pages, it's that your game calculations don't exactly need to bend reality. A simple, elegant formula will get you much further than all the astrophysics in the world if you want pretty numbers.

My argument against levelling is that it has a huge effect on the outcome of matches, regardless of player skill. The single-player Story mode proves this, since you can take on enemies at a far higher level than your character would be during a first run through of their Story mode, and as a result you, the player, has to play pretty much perfectly whereas the AI only has to get one or two lucky hits on you to drain your Brave and put you in a pretty bad position. The Summons help even this out, but most of them only activate once a round and if you mess up while they're on, you're kind of boned. Now imagine this with a skilled human player playing a high-level character vs a low-level one. Being able to even out levels during multiplayer matches will help keep the game fun to play, without making players feel like they have to grind to level 100 to have a hope of winning against people who have gotten several level 100 characters in the first few weeks. But then again, this game won't be taken seriously in a competitive, serious context, at least not among fighting game enthusiasts, so I suppose it hardly matters that there's a levelling system.

As an aside, fighting games had a grand tradition of not altering shit when it comes to ports, especially handheld ones. Street Fighter 2 on the Gameboy made you hold down one of the two buttons to get varying levels of normal, which didn't work out that well. Street Fighter Alpha 3 on the GBA made you press a two-button combination to get a heavy normal, making Gief's Lariat impossible. Some games included easy modes, like the aformented SFA3 port which had easier super motions, and Darkstalkers Chronicles on the PSP which also had an easy mode, but all they amounted to was different button inputs, and you invariably lost some control over the move you wanted to do. Easy modes in fighting games are more common nowadays but they're invariably gimped compared to the "real" controls, and universally hated because they tend to break the balance of the moves a bit.

[bluestarultor]

Not to switch gears again, but I just realized something so obvious I'm kicking myself. If they choose to have Vincent in, HE could be the swing character. He has the Chaos Gene. That means he could come under the influence of Chaos and go ballistic.


While I'm on the subject, I missed this:
I would love to see the Blackbelt and one of the Fiends (FIRE) from one, Leon or Minwu and the other Emperor you fight in the side story for Dawn of Souls from two, have Luneth not just be a costume from three, Kain is fine from four although I would rather see Yang or Cid, Faris definitely from five, Celes or Locke from six, Tifa, Red XII, and Rufus from seven, Quitsis from eight, Steiner from nine, Auron and Seymour from ten, and Balthier from 12.

I would love to see Ramza from FFT thrown in there somewhere as well.

Rufus would be an interesting one to get from FF7. First off because he'd be a blank slate, but second off because he's basically the unsung badass from the Compilation. Also, he's got a great design. Sometimes simple is more awesome than all the bells and whistles you could bury someone under.

I think if they gave him an interesting style of play and didn't mess up his appearance too badly, they could play off his fangirl segment and he wouldn't even be Bishie. Seriously, not that it comes up much, but apparently he's got what it takes to make the ladies swoon, or at least certain ladies (my cousin is a dedicated fan), but he's cool enough that he wouldn't alienate the male audience.

At the very least, he could use Gil Toss. XD


Edit:

Dissidia had the following scheme:

Square: HP attack
Triangle: General run-around-on-walls button
Circle: Brave attack
Cross: Jump
DPad: Camera
Slider: Movement
L: Something I forget, maybe lock-on.
R: Guard
Select: I forgot what this does.
Start: Pause.
R+X+slider direction: Dodge.
R+Square: EX Burst I think, or maybe it was L+Square
R+Triangle: Dash straight to locked-on object, once you had the skill required.
There was another combination for triggering a Summon but I forget what it was.

A pretty crammed scheme already. Admittedly it worked alright as it was, but anything more I can see becoming a bit unwieldy.

That's actually pretty painless, all told. Still leaves room for the double shoulder mash at least.


My argument against levelling is that it has a huge effect on the outcome of matches, regardless of player skill. The single-player Story mode proves this, since you can take on enemies at a far higher level than your character would be during a first run through of their Story mode, and as a result you, the player, has to play pretty much perfectly whereas the AI only has to get one or two lucky hits on you to drain your Brave and put you in a pretty bad position. The Summons help even this out, but most of them only activate once a round and if you mess up while they're on, you're kind of boned. Now imagine this with a skilled human player playing a high-level character vs a low-level one. Being able to even out levels during multiplayer matches will help keep the game fun to play, without making players feel like they have to grind to level 100 to have a hope of winning against people who have gotten several level 100 characters in the first few weeks. But then again, this game won't be taken seriously in a competitive, serious context, at least not among fighting game enthusiasts, so I suppose it hardly matters that there's a levelling system.

Well, yes, that's really why these things should at least have brackets, or at least informed consent. Actually, a temporary level boost, all else held constant, would be the matter of one line of code to perform assuming all the stats automatically cascaded.

Granted, I can understand the perspective of not including any of those (minus informed consent) if they feel it would ruin the balance of the game (meaning they want to force you to grind to extend play time).

Holy shit, shitty ports!
Those would be examples of terrible ports. On the other hand, handhelds were not the primary systems they were designed for, so it's (slightly) less egregious. On the other hand, I know for a fact that Street Fighter works just fine on the original system in all cases, which is, in fact, good design for the planned context.

That's just a matter of them doing things right the first time around and it not working when they made a change much later.

[Eldezar]

Argument: Person X too much like person Y.
Rebuttal: Smash Bros. Brawl.

Argument: Relevent Programming Degree says design is more important.
Rebuttal: Relevent Business/Marketing says popularity is more important. Also, SSBB.

Argument: Popularity does/doesn't matter.
Rebuttal: Sonic (does). Geno (doesn't).

Argument: Roster.
Rebuttal: Brawl.

But seriously, the discussion here reminds me of the Brawl speculation thread(s) from way back, and so many things didn't happen on a design and consumer perspective.

[bluestarultor]

Argument: Person X too much like person Y.
Rebuttal: Smash Bros. Brawl.
Counter-rebuttal: previous design choices.

Argument: Relevent Programming Degree says design is more important.
Rebuttal: Relevent Business/Marketing says popularity is more important. Also, SSBB.
Clarification: no, Relevant Programming Degree says compromises will be made between the project sponsor (marketing team) and the project team (developers) based on technical feasibility, technical desirability, sponsor demand, resources, and relation of technical issues and extrapolation of non-technical input via spokespeople adept in translating between the two.

(Translation: It's up to poor souls like me to sit down with the poor souls from marketing or whoever we're making the program for sent to deliver specifications and determine the specifications they actually want when they have no idea how to express it, whether they're possible, and whether they "really want it" (i.e. are they willing to cover the costs and give adequate time for the features they're demanding). The two of us will then go back to our bosses and tell them "everything," "no," "no, but they think they do," and "shoot me now" and "he took ten tries to rattle off something with big words and I nodded and smiled," "he said no, but computers are magic and he's lying," "they're trying to cheat us," and "throw him in the alligator pits," respectively.)

Argument: Popularity does/doesn't matter.
Rebuttal: Sonic (does). Geno (doesn't).
Okay, I throw up my hands at this one because there is no good answer. There are shades of gray here that need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis.

Argument: Roster.
Rebuttal: Brawl.

Counter-rebuttal: different system, different capabilities; different company, different culture.




I'm just going to finish this off by saying Dissidia is nothing like Smash in any form and the two should never be compared. Smash is Nintendo wanking off for the enjoyment of everyone born since 1980 with no rhyme or reason in who's included because they're casting a wide net to catch as many people as possible, where Dissidia is Square wanking off its properties for a much narrower audience in celebration of a single series with much more niche appeal.

Oh, and another thing, even the design philosophies are different. Dissidia's roster was carefully considered from the planning phases, where Brawl held a poll and ended up leaving in dead code for several characters, including Mewtwo, Dr. Mario, Roy, and even Plusle and Minun, some of which had model data that was repurposed for trophies.

In short, life's not so simple.

[EVILNess]

Counter-rebuttal: previous design choices.


Counter-Counter-Rebuttal: Every successive Final Fantasy game throws out most of the previous design choices.

[bluestarultor]

Counter-Counter-Rebuttal: Every successive Final Fantasy game throws out most of the previous design choices.

Counter-counter-counter-rebuttal: this is neither a main-line title, nor has the information released so far indicated a shift in spirit as much as a technical shift. Also, design choices not being recycled lends itself to the inclusion of new mechanics or major updates to sufficiently old ones more than recycling them in the context of the next subsequent iteration. ;P

In all seriousness, we have no way of knowing anything for sure right now. I'd prefer to leave that argument alone in part because the more I have to argue about Seifer, the more I have to think about a character that I both dislike and begrudgingly pity. Seifer would be slightly more sympathetic if he were at all likable, but the truth is that the tragedy is mostly lost because he brought it upon himself because of his arrogance, ego, distorted values, outright amorality, Oedipus complex, sociopathy, violent tendencies, and especially distorted self-image which he uses to justify it all even after there's nothing left for him to cling to but his rivalry with Squall, abandoned by even his closest allies for his irrationality and with no more pretense of a higher cause to serve as an excuse for all he's wrought on the path to his own ultimate and inevitable destruction.



...As evidenced by how much I actually ended up writing, I think it's clear I think he's an ass. If he makes it onto the side of Chaos, he'll be the only one who's in it for all the wrong reasons, which says something in the context of villains. Out of all the villains in the series, none of them are nearly as misguided and willfully ignorant of their own wrongdoings and self-destructive behaviors as Seifer. He's the only villain of the series who would toss aside redemption if it were offered, which is the only reason I feel sorry for him, because he's also the only villain who it would be offered to and the only one who could truly appreciate and reap its benefits if he weren't too much of a wad to accept it.

[Kim]

But he has a cool jacket.

[bluestarultor]

But he has a cool jacket.

So does Rufus. (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Rufus) :P

[Kim]

I thought they were the same guy.

[Nique]

Get rid of equipment cuz goddamn son.

I think I've repped you enough lately so I'm raising my expectations. One rep for every 4 posts I find awesome. Blues, that goes for you too now. :/

Anydangways, I agree with this suggestion mostly. Mostly becuase equipping stuff is rad and fun for customization but understanding the whole item store was a bitch.

[bluestarultor]

I thought they were the same guy.

Seifer doesn't have jack on Rufus. Rufus spent his childhood doing things like convincing his father to build him personal escape hatches that he's use decades later and his teen years funding a terrorist cell with the express purpose of destabilizing his father's power so he could take over. Despite never having seen a drop of Mako, he's strong enough to wield a full shotgun in one hand and his reputation of ruthlessness states that even as a child, no one ever saw him bleed his own blood or cry. After nonchalantly taking control of a world-dominating corporation without a whit of concern for his father's bloody demise, in fact, with a speech prepared, he commissions a giant cannon to be not built, but MOVED, from his hometown and military base no less, and it's done in at most a matter of days. He soon after escapes a giant monster's vaporizing beam by using the escape chute he convinced his father to build specifically for him in childhood and after the events of FF7 builds the settlement of Edge out of the ruins of Midgar, subsequently funds yet another new world order, and places a goddamn statue claiming it all in plain sight to get people used to the idea of him ruling it all again. He also personally guards the last remnant of Jenova unbeknownst to all but possibly his closest associates and has the balls to reveal it to a guy who outclasses him hands-down in terms of physical and magical power and then call the guy a bad son for not having figured it out before jumping off one of the upper floors of a ruined office building with full knowledge that his subordinates have been highly trained enough to be prepared for such an occurrence and shoot nets to catch him before he splatters.


Compared to him, Seifer is a sniveling pansy who's not fit to lead a parade. :P

[Kim]

Seifer is a sniveling pansy who's not fit to lead a parade.

But he did!

[POS Industries]

no one ever saw him bleed his own blood
...Whose blood did he bleed, then?

[bluestarultor]

But he did!

No, he sat on a float and thought he was amazing for it. :P

...Whose blood did he bleed, then?

Obviously, he spent much of his childhood covered in the blood of others, probably adults after kicking their asses with nothing but his bare hands in order to make sure he had a counter to any fighting style just in case it ever came up.

[Kim]

No, he sat on a float and thought he was amazing for it. :P

Hey, being in a parade is rad. Don't knock it.

Obviously, he spent much of his childhood covered in the blood of others, probably adults after kicking their asses with nothing but his bare hands in order to make sure he had a counter to any fighting style just in case it ever came up.

What was their blood doing inside him to begin with?

[bluestarultor]

What was their blood doing inside him to begin with?

It got in his pores from constant exposure.


Edit: This is also why he was named Rufus, as it's a Latin word for red. You know, being covered in blood all the time. His father was too afraid to give him a name he didn't like, but he liked Rufus just fine, so it stuck. :p



Okay, but seriously, I'm done now. XD

[Professor Smarmiarty]

(Translation: It's up to poor souls like me to sit down with the poor souls from marketing or whoever we're making the program for sent to deliver specifications and determine the specifications they actually want when they have no idea how to express it, whether they're possible, and whether they "really want it" (i.e. are they willing to cover the costs and give adequate time for the features they're demanding). The two of us will then go back to our bosses and tell them "everything," "no," "no, but they think they do," and "shoot me now" and "he took ten tries to rattle off something with big words and I nodded and smiled," "he said no, but computers are magic and he's lying," "they're trying to cheat us," and "throw him in the alligator pits," respectively.)


I'm just curious when programmers turned into philosopher-god kings who could control our fate with a blink of thier eye but in their magnamous gratitude decide to work under snivelling little money-changers so they will learn the true meaning of humility.

[mudah.swf]

Pretty much seconding all of this. I'm okay with not completely removing chase sequences but I would like to see the number of moves that trigger them greatly reduced and replaced with link attack triggers, balanced out by a way to break out of attack links other than hitting EX-mode. Maybe something like a mini EX-guard that drains away some of your EX gauge in the process?

The thing with that mini-ex guard is that there already IS the ex-guard feature, only it requires a full bar. Having a smaller version of it would be a bit redundant I think. I do think it would be cool for Square to think of other ways to use that ex-meter though, to introduce some meter management into the game or give characters even more variety.

[Donomni]

I think I've repped you enough lately so I'm raising my expectations. One rep for every 4 posts I find awesome. Blues, that goes for you too now. :/

Anydangways, I agree with this suggestion mostly. Mostly becuase equipping stuff is rad and fun for customization but understanding the whole item store was a bitch.

I wouldn't mind the loss of equipment if it meant the computer wasn't so blatantly cheating with showing you its impossible equipment setups before a fight.

Although, considering SE, they'd just sneak in some other cheating.

[bluestarultor]

I'm just curious when programmers turned into philosopher-god kings who could control our fate with a blink of thier eye but in their magnamous gratitude decide to work under snivelling little money-changers so they will learn the true meaning of humility.

Well, to keep it short, the object of the exercise is for me, or whoever is working with the sponsor, to help avoid this:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9643/whatthecustomeractually.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/i/whatthecustomeractually.jpg/)


Edit: It's less that programmers are gods among men as much as we're the ones who need to take a list of amorphous proposals, try to solidify what they mean by coaxing it out of non-technical people, figure out what it'll take to program them, and then try to program them in the allotted time and budget while avoiding scope creep as best as possible.

It really just boils down to being involved with project management. At the very least, programmers are expected to know enough about it to know what's going on, and preferably enough to be able to help in minor ways if it's needed, like with interviews and meetings.

[POS Industries]

*play Dissidia online for the first time in ages*
"Equips or no?"
"BH" (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5736)
"...What the hell did you people do to this game while I was gone?!"

So yeah, rebalance the sequel so that this sort of bullshit doesn't happen, Square. kthxbai!

[Regulus Tera]

*play Dissidia online for the first time in ages*
"Equips or no?"
"BH" (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5736)
"...What the hell did you people do to this game while I was gone?!"

So yeah, rebalance the sequel so that this sort of bullshit doesn't happen, Square. kthxbai!


what the fuck is this

[POS Industries]

what the fuck is this
Apparently a mathematical attempt at dealing with the equips/no equips issue. Since the game is balanced specifically around the stats gained from equipment, no equips matches are inherently plagued by the issue that the players don't have the HP and defense necessary to withstand a great deal of attacks.

But tourney players apparently get their panties in an amazing bunch regarding said equipment since it allows players to rely on pregame strategies that therefore "don't rely on skill," so somebody did the math to figure out how to equip everyone with the same easily obtained shit gear combinations. Throw in some other hoops to jump through regarding abilities and usage of EX modes and bursts and you have yourself this monstrosity.

Also apparently some furry shit. I dunno.

Yeah, if anyone ever might have wondered why I dropped out of the competitive scene with this game, here ya go.

[Flarecobra]

Competitive groups sap the fun out of a lot of games it seems.

[Nique]

Oh man. Competitive gaming is like, one of those things that sounds amazing on paper but in practice is just awful and full of awful people.

[EVILNess]

*play Dissidia online for the first time in ages*
"Equips or no?"
"BH" (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5736)
"...What the hell did you people do to this game while I was gone?!"

So yeah, rebalance the sequel so that this sort of bullshit doesn't happen, Square. kthxbai!

The thing is that people will do this regardless.

[Krylo]

The problem isn't the competitive scene.

It's carebears pretending to be competitive players. Those dudes are carebears.

Actual competitive players are the cut throat tweak the system in whatever way you can to edge out as much of an advantage as possible types. They'd never rule against using gear, because they'd want to be the ones benefiting from pregame strategies.

[mudah.swf]

Dissidia didn't even have a scene outside of that one forum anyway. AFAIK it was never taken seriously by anyone other than the posters on that board. Everyone else messed around with it for laughs and went back to Street Fighter or whatever, most likely because Dissidia was probably really shitty when played like that, and I can see why.

As for gear, traditional fighting game players would argue against ANYTHING other than pure player skill in a competitive fighting game, because the emphasis should be on the player's knowledge of the characters and their opponents rather than how long they've spent grinding out Ryu's hadoken or whatever. Dissidia isn't the most serious business fighting game but it gets played competitively because people will try to play ANYTHING even slightly competitive in a serious business, competitive way, because they can. Shit, there are tournaments for Naruto fighting games. It doesn't matter how boring the game becomes when you strip away the frills like equips and stats and whatnot, people will try having tournaments for it anyway.

As an aside in my limited experience of competitive fighting game IRL i've met nothing BUT cool, non-awful people. It's not all bad.

[Krylo]

Setting up gear is part of 'pure player skill'. It's stupid and carebearish to say otherwise.

It's the equivalent of saying that, "It's totally ok to completely utilize every single trick and exploit in the system, so long as it's only the ones I'M comfortable with."

Which is basically exactly the same thing as saying, "Don't do anything I'm not good enough to handle."

Edit: There's a salient argument about the random items in Brawl or whatever, because they are entirely random. There's no skill based in picking them up. But anyone who has played any kind of RPG and spent even the slightest amount of time and effort toward 'twinking' a character can tell you that setting up gear is, indeed, a skill in and of itself. It's not twitch based, and purely analytical, but that doesn't make it less valid. Any more than analyzing the benefits of a weapons payload for a strike force is any more or less valid than the skill of the members at actually using those firearms.

[mudah.swf]

I think we're coming from different perspectives here. It would be really difficult to argue about this because we both have entirely different views on what constitutes a real "competitive" game and all that entails. I absolutely hate the idea of levelling and stat builds and gear in a multiplayer, competitive game. I don't want to have to invest 40 hours in getting my gear and stats just right before I can actually play the game against other people, and then getting yelled at because I don't have the build that's hot right now. Not coincidentially, if I'm playing an RPG or something I don't play it against other people. Even where something like Pokemon is concerned, I don't bother playing with other people very often because I hate the idea of having to tediously grind my pokermen to an acceptable standard.

Whereas you seem to have an entirely different opinion on the subject so any argument will just be us going around in circles, I'm sure you could throw countless words at me about how stats and gear are a hugely important skill and that I'm just a huge fucking scrub for thinking otherwise.

Also I don't think random items are bad so I don't know why you brought that up. Adapting to situations is a skill in itself, and fighting games themselves have had tons of randomness and bullshit in the past.

[Krylo]

Because the last fighting game people tried to get 'competitive' about and complained about similar mechanics altering the flow of a battle too quickly and removing player skill was the smash brothers games and their random items. I agree with you that dealing with them is, itself, a skill that should be honored, but the argument against that is much more salient than the argument against allowing gear to top tier Dissidia players, or worse forcing them to wear the gear you dictate.

Also: Having games/tournaments in which there is no gear for people who don't want to go through the trouble of getting it is perfectly fine.

What's not fine is pretending like you're balancing the game out by removing that instead of just facilitating people being able to get into a tournament without bothering with that/facilitating people who don't want to do the number crunching to maximize their abilities.

What's even LESS fine is coming up with gear that everyone must have and forcing everyone to be max level at the same time.

That's basically the worst of both worlds, and what's going on if you check the thread POS linked.

To be short about it, I don't care how you like to play, or how you do play. What I do care about is the idea it doesn't take player effort and strategizing to set up a gear build isn't as valid a skill as the twitch portions and its proliferation resulting in ridiculous and confusing tournament rules that no one in their right mind should ever consider abiding by.

Edit: Also, it's not the grinding and getting them that's a skill. It's putting them together in the most effective combination with a summon. It's not like there's just one set of gear at end game and one set of accessories. There's different builds that have to be selected for maximum effectiveness with your character, your personal play style with that character, and effectiveness against your opponent's character and gear set. The very argument these people like to use to justify their ridiculous rule sets proves this. It CAN change the course of a battle, or it CAN give an unfair advantage. It doesn't say it DOES, meaning you need to gear up right and use the right summons at the right times in battle to pull a flip. Compare to the rather famous SF tournament vid of a dude getting beaten down by chun-li only to release his super at just the right time and completely reverse the flow of the battle. Same thing, but you have to equip the summon first. FURTHER, they still expect you to have all this gear (full imp set, drop this, drop that), so it's not like they're worried about the time investment giving you an advantage. They're worried about the build you select giving one.

The grinding and getting shit in the first place is totally a drag and I agree with you there's no skill to it and it's stupid and pointless.

[POS Industries]

You also have to bear in mind that the "grinding for equipment" argument isn't even valid because it takes even longer to grind battles in order to "master" all the abilities that you intend to use for each character, which allows them to cost less skill points to equip therefore allowing you to equip more abilities. So, no matter what, the argument that whoever did the most grinding has the advantage of a more powerful character comes into play no matter what you do.

At the end of the day, the fact is that this is basically Pokemon with twitch combat, and if this the game people want to play competitively, then that's the game they need to fucking play.

Personally, I've always been okay with banning one time use items like incenses and resins, but not because they give an unfair advantage so much as that they are so easily obtained that, if they were allowed, everyone would basically have to equip them to compete. And since you can load up a character with those things and conceivably set yourself up to insta-kill your opponent the moment the match starts, the idea of everyone just one-shotting each other in every match sounds horrendous and kills the game's playability.

[mudah.swf]

I read that thread that POS linked, saw the massive ruleset that the OP had written out and now I'm astounded that people actually play Dissidia competitively. IMO if a game needs that many fucking rules to be competitive, it's a shit competitive game. Bear in mind that I come from a fighting game background and the rules for tournament-played games mostly consist of "no turbo, best of 3, good luck".

I would definitely say this backing has coloured pretty much all of my views in this little argument that I've kicked off. There's no stats, no gear and no levels to worry about, everything is available immediately and there's no need to change any settings to get a fun, deep game out of the experience.

Krylo my personal issue with gear being skilful is that I have difficulty seeing how it's skilful to look up a gear recommendation on a wiki and set yourself up with that. But I admittedly have little experience with MMOs as all the ones I've played have bored me to tears in a few days; I suppose I am totally ignorant on the subject. Please educate me as to why I'm totally wrong and building a proper build requires more effort than looking shit up on a wiki, I'm all ears.

[Krylo]

Because looking shit up on a wiki only gives you a base.

I mean, yeah, to use WoW, ok you want to build a DPS Shaman build you can go to Elitist Jerks and steal one of their builds, but honestly, as good as Elitist Jerks are, it's going to be subpar.

Because you aren't the dude that made it. Statistically speaking it's going to be completely solid, but you're going to have different rotations, be comfortable with different things, and just generally handle your character differently. Maybe you'd be better off splitting off an extra few points in restro for more healing/survivability with the way you play, instead of going full on DPS like they suggest.

And that's in WoW where it's gear >>>>> build >>> play style.

Get to a twitch based game and you have to accommodate your own playstyle even more. What works for someone with an aggressive play style will, emphatically, not work for someone with a defensive play style.

Further, in a tournament setting of 'fight a dude, fight another dude in an hour/the next day/whatever' you have other things to take into consideration.

What's his playstyle? Is he a turtle? Would I be better served fighting his form of turtling by turtling back or by loading up on as much offensive power as I can to break past it? Is he an aggressive player? If he is, can I keep up with him being equally aggressive or should I try for something that will take the edge off his punches?

You can't just grab a cookie cutter build in a game that involves twitch play and expect to do well. Doing so, to use a comparison you yourself used, would be tantamount to tossing out a squirtle every fight, regardless of whether you're up against flame type, rock type, or electric type. It's a poor move at least a good portion of the time, if not all the time.

Hell, you can't even really get away with it in a game that DOESN'T include twitch play and expect to do well unless you put in the time to learn that build as well as the person that created it.

That's not to say wikis and discussion sites aren't as useful as hell, because they'll illuminate a lot of the nuances of how abilities work without you having to go through all that experimentation yourself, but at the end of the day it's up to you to put the numbers together in a way that works for you if you want to be top tier.

[mudah.swf]

So it's the same as when it comes to fighting games, where watching videos of others playing and reading combo lists will only get you so far? My personal view of stuff like Wow being played competitively was that it consisted entirely of hitting the level cap and using whatever build is best for your character, relying on your group members to cover up weaknesses, but that's changed my view of it, at least a little.

Just out of interest, what MMOs involve twitch play? As far as I'm aware MMOs tend to stay away from twitch play.

edit: i'm actually watching videos of Dissidia competitive play now and it just looks so... bad. All I'm seeing is a game which consists of everyone being nigh impossible to hit because of how dodging works, so people just resort to doing wacky, random shit in the hopes that they'll catch the opponent out of a dodge, which more often than not doesn't happen. What is the appeal in playing it competively? Where is the fun factor? I'm no stranger to fighting games but Christ that looks tedious to play.

[Krylo]

Space Cowboy comes to mind immediately, but I don't think that's around anymore. It was an MMORPG/Combat flight sim. Was pretty fun. And this is the one I'm really thinking of when I make these arguments. Whether you flew a floating tank or an interceptor and whether you geared it for more speed or more fire power, etc. and how useful that all was really depended on your weaknesses and strengths as a pilot (I went high power and high speed, and relied almost entirely on dodging to not die... helped that PF taught me how to abuse afterburners, too).

AoC kind of does with melee combos... Champions online has some twitchy bits to it as well with a block button and teleporting and what not, but neither of them come close to fighting game levels. It's hard to do so on MMORPGs though, because in general you want your MMORPG to be able to handle a little lag, and the twitchier it is, the worse a half second of lag gets.

WoW is probably as close to being able to just grab a cookie cutter build and run with it as you can get, though.

Edit: THAT you'd have to ask POS.

[Donomni]

What is the appeal in playing it competively? Where is the fun factor? I'm no stranger to fighting games but Christ that looks tedious to play.

Because it's a fighting game with Final Fantasy characters, which is just about the only one in existence besides Eihrgeiz or whatever they called that game on the PS1?

[mudah.swf]

Like seriously I'm watching some videos of it right now and from what I can see competitive Dissidia play literally consists of both players spazzing on the Dodge function and randomly throwing out things in the hope that they'll score a hit? Looking at the rules, the community has banned everything even slightly cool/interesting/hype about the game so it doesn't even LOOK fun. Although I agree with the ex-counter ban, if they kept that in the game would be just unplayable.

[bluestarultor]

Space Cowboy comes to mind immediately, but I don't think that's around anymore. It was an MMORPG/Combat flight sim. Was pretty fun. And this is the one I'm really thinking of when I make these arguments. Whether you flew a floating tank or an interceptor and whether you geared it for more speed or more fire power, etc. and how useful that all was really depended on your weaknesses and strengths as a pilot (I went high power and high speed, and relied almost entirely on dodging to not die... helped that PF taught me how to abuse afterburners, too).

AoC kind of does with melee combos... Champions online has some twitchy bits to it as well with a block button and teleporting and what not, but neither of them come close to fighting game levels. It's hard to do so on MMORPGs though, because in general you want your MMORPG to be able to handle a little lag, and the twitchier it is, the worse a half second of lag gets.

WoW is probably as close to being able to just grab a cookie cutter build and run with it as you can get, though.

Edit: THAT you'd have to ask POS.

DFO also counts. It's a pretty neat setup, actually, being styled as an arcade brawler. PVP is actually important enough that it has its own miniature level system and several modes.

[POS Industries]

Like seriously I'm watching some videos of it right now and from what I can see competitive Dissidia play literally consists of both players spazzing on the Dodge function and randomly throwing out things in the hope that they'll score a hit? Looking at the rules, the community has banned everything even slightly cool/interesting/hype about the game so it doesn't even LOOK fun. Although I agree with the ex-counter ban, if they kept that in the game would be just unplayable.
Yeah, pretty much. That's why there's basically 2 different competitive scenes: What those guys spend their time doing over Ad-Hoc Party and Xlink Kai, and what everybody else does at various anime/gaming/whatever conventions where somebody decides to throw a tournament to have fun with a bunch of other people for prizes that aren't worth dick because it's not about the prizes, it's about finally getting a bunch of people together to play Dissidia.

The real life, face-to-face tournaments tend to have a very basic ruleset for either equips or no equips, everybody's kinda mediocre because they haven't really played against people too much before, and it's mostly just people socializing and duking it out with their favorite FF doodz. You might have one guy from the "real" competitive scene show up, and he'll win the whole thing because he eats, sleeps, and breathes Dissidia, and nobody that plays against him will have any fun because he's "that guy."

The only tournament I ever took part in? I was "that guy." And it sucked. So I pretty much quit playing for several months.

I really like the game for what it is, and I'd like to see some of the most glaring flaws in its implementation fixed for the sequel, but I don't see myself going back and being deeply involved with such an insulated, out of touch community like that ever again.

WoW is probably as close to being able to just grab a cookie cutter build and run with it as you can get, though.

Edit: THAT you'd have to ask POS.
WoW PvP's been shit since TBC came out and arenas were introduced, as far as I'm concerned, and I've only ever occasionally touched it out of the sheerest of boredom since.

[Regulus Tera]

http://www.square-enix.co.jp/dissidia_012/

[Flarecobra]

Looks like the first one's Warrior of Light is coming back...

Link (http://blog.jp.square-enix.com/tgs10/2010/09/13153955.html)

[bluestarultor]

Well, FFWiki finally has info up. Policy is that we have to wait for official confirmation, but this will probably be updated religiously as new info emerges:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dissidia_012_Final_Fantasy

[mudah.swf]

words

So it's as bad as I thought then? And everybody kind of sucks, just some people suck less than others? Watching one of the videos, there were guys doing all sorts of stuff that I wouldn't be caught dead doing if I actually bothered to play it against other people.

I think whether it gets changed or not depends on how much Square give a shit about that aspect of the game. Dissidia 1 indicated that they didn't care much, and I'm almost willing to bet that Dissidia 2 won't change all that much.

[Nique]

New question; Is there a problem with just calling this 'Dissidia 2'? Not sure I understand the fancy name aside from the expected year of release.

[bluestarultor]

New question; Is there a problem with just calling this 'Dissidia 2'? Not sure I understand the fancy name aside from the expected year of release.

Actually, it's scheduled for 2011, not 2012.

The name comes from the basis of Roman Law, apparently. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dissidia_2#Etymology

[Regulus Tera]

New question; Is there a problem with just calling this 'Dissidia 2'? Not sure I understand the fancy name aside from the expected year of release.

This is the company who brought you Birth by Sleep and 358/2 Days. Did you really expect them to call it Dissidia 2?

[Nique]

Ah. So we can look forward to yet another completely obtuse storyline with little relevance to it's titular themes.

Sorry. Birth By Sleep is getting to me.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Historian in me cringes- the twelve tables have a very dodgey status in roman history, as in they tell one story which is quite different from some other stories we know. Calling them the foundation of republic law is a bit of an exaggeration.

[POS Industries]

So it's as bad as I thought then? And everybody kind of sucks, just some people suck less than others? Watching one of the videos, there were guys doing all sorts of stuff that I wouldn't be caught dead doing if I actually bothered to play it against other people.

I think whether it gets changed or not depends on how much Square give a shit about that aspect of the game. Dissidia 1 indicated that they didn't care much, and I'm almost willing to bet that Dissidia 2 won't change all that much.
Well, I can't really say for sure since I don't know what videos you watched. There are lots of good players. It's just that they belong to a community centered around a video game, and all communities centered around video games are filled to the brim with flailing retards.

But no, I'd imagine that S-E probably won't be as interested in making a "serious competitive fighting game" out of it so much as continuing to make a fun little fanwank game like the last one. I just hope they actually bother to market it outside the internet this time so that more people know it exists and go out and buy it, as well as see what they can do to work past the PSP hardware limitations insofar as online infrastructure play so that PvP is a great deal more readily accessible to most of the people who have it.

[Regulus Tera]

People knew about this game, they just didn't care enough to buy it. (http://www.siliconera.com/2010/06/09/dissidia-final-fantasy-downloaded-illegally-over-5-million-times/)

You can blame the platform for that.

[POS Industries]

Then where the hell have these five million people been when I wanted to play against someone?

Also: Downloading still happens from the internet. Clearly, their internet marketing campaign was a raging success. But not everyone lives online like we do. You still have to air actually appealing TV commercials for more than two days if you want to bring in mainstream interest.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that one of the main reasons the downloaded-to-bought ratio is so huge is because all they did was advertise on the internet, where you can easily go and get it for free and whose denizens are more liable to do just that.

[Regulus Tera]

The numbers Dissidia got are GTAIV/FF levels of downloads. I bet you almost the entire FF fanbase devoured the game. Thing is, most of them tend to focus on the single player aspect when playing.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You still have to air actually appealing TV commercials for more than two days if you want to bring in mainstream interest.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that one of the main reasons the downloaded-to-bought ratio is so huge is because all they did was advertise on the internet, where you can easily go and get it for free and whose denizens are more liable to do just that.

Wait, they do television ads for video games? I don't think I've seen one ever.

[Nique]

Wait, they do television ads for video games? I don't think I've seen one ever.

Cable channels - I saw Dissdia ads on G4 and Cartoon Network, possibly a few others. Also like, Wii commercials are all over the place.

[mudah.swf]

Those five million people probably can't work Adhoc Party or Xlink. The videos I watched were videos from some of the tournaments that Dissidiaforum held, from heats to finals matches, and they were all equally boring.

edit: Someone at NeoGAF claims to have had this described to him as Super Dissidia, rather than a real Dissidia 2. If that's the case then I doubt we'll be seeing any huge differences from Dissidia 1.

[POS Industries]

The videos I watched were videos from some of the tournaments that Dissidiaforum held, from heats to finals matches, and they were all equally boring.
So no specific examples in order to support your vague generalization. Awesome.

For what it's worth, I don't find tournament videos particularly interesting, either, largely because of what you were saying about them boiling down to both players trying to fake each other into providing openings for them to capitalize on, then relying on whatever the one objectively best move their character has to win. Non-tourney matchups tend to be a lot more fun just because the players involved are more willing to take risks and mix things up, in my experience.

[mudah.swf]

Oh, you want examples? I've seen a handful of finals matches from Bloody Howling (http://www.dissidiaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=102) and Dissidence (http://www.dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1021) tournaments so far. I intend on watching more to see if those are just outliers and I really am just wrong, but I doubt it somehow. The thing with the whole faking-each-other-out thing is that it happens in all fighters, but most fighters don't have a dodge mechanic that can be done whenever and whereever you want for free and is also invincible almost all the way through.

I don't think it's BAD and WRONG to want to play Dissidia that way, but I do wonder why anyone would subject themselves to it.

[POS Industries]

Oh, you want examples? I've seen a handful of finals matches from Bloody Howling (http://www.dissidiaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=102) and Dissidence (http://www.dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1021) tournaments so far.
I was hoping for links to actual videos but I do remember being bored to tears through the bulk of Dissidence. Of course, I also recall Dissidence being mostly Squalls and holy shit does that guy get dull in a hurry.

I intend on watching more to see if those are just outliers and I really am just wrong, but I doubt it somehow. The thing with the whole faking-each-other-out thing is that it happens in all fighters, but most fighters don't have a dodge mechanic that can be done whenever and whereever you want for free and is also invincible almost all the way through.
Dodging is actually considered fairly unsafe compared to blocking, though, since if you know the timing of the invincibility frames, there's actually a point where they're vulnerable that you can get in an attack, though online lag kinda makes that sort of precision timing hard to land, I'd imagine.

Still, there has already been a great deal of talk among players in regard to possible fixes to the game to allow for a safer offense and making defense less of a primary focus for the game. For instance, I'd like to see more counter mechanics put in to allow players a chance to break out of combos and EX-Bursts, as I feel that the game's biggest flaw is the "player lands one hit, combo is guaranteed success forever" aspect. Yes, it's something that tends to be present in fighting games in general, but I've never seen it be so game-breaking as much as it is in Dissidia.

[mudah.swf]

I'm convinced that the reason combos are so gamebreaking in Dissidia is the Brave system. That's it. Change that or remove it entirely and bam, you have combos that are effective without being insta-wins. That or levels, again. Having more combo breakers is a lazy method of dealing with that issue. More combo breakers make offense even worse and will result in a more boring game for everyone, not just the hardcore set. Trust me.

Dodging's considered unsafe? I haven't see a single block in the videos I've watched so far. I would get that if they're talking about ground dodging, but air dodging? Only way to get hit during that is to fuck up and move towards the opponent's attack or something. There's probably a video out there somewhere with someone getting smacked for dodging, though.

[POS Industries]

I'm convinced that the reason combos are so gamebreaking in Dissidia is the Brave system. That's it. Change that or remove it entirely and bam, you have combos that are effective without being insta-wins. That or levels, again. Having more combo breakers is a lazy method of dealing with that issue. More combo breakers make offense even worse and will result in a more boring game for everyone, not just the hardcore set. Trust me.
But then you're still back at everyone just turtling about and being too terrified to mount an offense because one successfully landed hit guarantees an unbreakable one-button combo. The brave system could use a bit of an overhaul insofar as reducing the reward for a successful break but it's still going to be the same problem if they don't fix the combo system. It's just that it'll make matches take even longer.

A dodge cancel shouldn't be shorter than the stagger the other player experiences during a combo, for one thing. Jecht is the only character that has a proper combo system, but as a result he's much harder to use and therefore less effective than WoL or Zidane. The argument against making everyone's combos like his is "it'll take away from Jecht's uniqueness," but his uniqueness in that regard makes him a midtier character when he's supposed to be how the game should be played to begin with.

Secondly, attack links shouldn't be a special feature for certain characters. Every character should have them, and they should be replacing the litany of chase sequence triggers.

Combo breakers could work to balance things out as well, but they shouldn't be easy to do and should have some sort of cost to execute, be it EX force or brave or maybe something from one of those two new bars that they're apparently implementing in Duodecim. Something limited, but gives the players more to work with than EX-counters.

[mudah.swf]

You'd be turtling about anyway because Dissidia needs a complete design overhaul if it wants to be taken seriously, There, I said it. I actually think about this, man. I've come to the conclusion that if Dissidia wants tp be up there with the likes of SF in terms of popularlity among both the tournament players and casual guys it needs a total overhaul if it wants to remain fun when people are getting serious. Adding more combo breakers would make the game even MORE turtley. Trust me man, I'm not trying to shit on your argument here, but I've played games with several combo-breaker mechanics and none of them were really good, regardless of how I played them. More of those isn't the way.

Uh, believe it or not I respect the effort that Square went to to create something more unique than a standard, 2d style fighting game, I just think it could be better if Square gave half a shit about making the nuts and bolts of the combat great too.

[POS Industries]

By contrast, I've played a number of fighting games over the years myself and find the basic mechanics of Dissidia to be more involving and enjoyable than those of traditional fighting games. It's almost as if it's a subjective opinion or something, you know?

I mean, I'm not trying to shit all over your relevant fighting game degrees here or anything and, uh, believe it or not I respect the work Capcom and the like have done for traditional fighting games, but I don't think completely changing the game into a Street Fighter or Tekken clone in order for traditional fighting game players to be able to wrap their heads around it is the way to go, either.

[mudah.swf]

Square taking some notes from Street Fighter would probably make Dissidia a whole lot more fun :P

[POS Industries]

Or not!

UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINIONS EVERYWHERE ALL UP IN THIS BITCH

[Doc ock rokc]

Square taking some notes from Street Fighter would probably make Dissidia a whole lot more fun :P

personally I enjoy dissida. I know a lot of people that play in turnys around here play in the vs ARCADE MODE where levels and armor don't count and you can't chose what attacks you can use. Which sucks yeah but is also fun. Personaly kinda have a Problem with street fighter where Someone that mashes or does the same move over and over again can beat someone that knows all the combos. In Dissida that isn't possible.

[Regulus Tera]

Copypasta:

Famitsu confirms that Lightning can change between Attacker, Blaster, and Healer using the L/R buttons, and that there is an Assist System where you can call out an ally and have up to 4 characters fighting at one time!

Nomura also confirms that you can carry over your Dissidia save, but he doesn't specify what it carries over. Every single character from the first game will be in the second, and there will be many new characters and "not just 3-4 new characters". The Story Mode details are being kept under wraps for now, suggesting that it's going to be pretty different from the first game.

[Krylo]

Famitsu confirms that Lightning can change between Attacker, Blaster, and Healer using the L/R buttons

And to keep the true FFXIII feeling, those are the only buttons that do anything.

[bluestarultor]

And to keep the true FFXIII feeling, those are the only buttons that do anything.

Maybe if she's locked into only Sazh as an assist, it will be pretty much that. XD

[Donomni]

That's totally not true!

...you have to press X once in awhile! And maybe browse the menu sometimes!

[POS Industries]

there is an Assist System where you can call out an ally and have up to 4 characters fighting at one time!
If you're able to choose your teams "vs. Capcom" style, this is gonna be so rad.

I'm gonna annoy the piss out of people with Kefka/Shantotto, AKA Team "You Can't Spell Slaughter Without Laughter!"

EDIT: Duodecium Details from Nomura Interview (from the translation here (http://community.livejournal.com/ffchaoticcosmos/255471.html)):

Fresh from Japanese gaming blog Remoon (http://remoon.blog15.fc2.com/blog-entry-13628.html), we have the keynotes from the Famitsu Interview with Nomura, including information the entirely new battle element - The Assist System. Here is the bulletin translated -

Kouichi Yamadera will reprise his role as Kain
Sugawara Bunta will reprise his role as Cid
Lightning will be able to use Paradigm Shifts (Optima Changes in the Japanese version), changing between Commando (Attacker), Ravager (Blaster), and Medic (Healer) using L and R.
The new Assist System allows you to call in an ally, allowing for up to four characters to be on the field at once.
Pressing L+O when one bar of the Assist Gauge will summon an ally for one Brave Attack. Pressing L+[] when both bars are full to summon them for an HP Attack.
Assists can break combos.
(Translator's Note: I'm not entirely sure about the next two items, but it sounds like you can't use the Assist System while in EX-Mode.)
Pursuit times have been made shorter.
All the characters from the previous game will return.
Kain and Lightning are not the only new characters. It will be more than just a few.
All characters will have three costumes. (1 Normal and 2 Alternates each)
There will be new summons added.
All the maps from the first game are back and there will be twice as many music tracks.
Communications Mode (AKA 2 Player Mode) has been stregthened.
Save Data from the first game can be transfered over.
The meaning behind "012" is a spoiler.
The details about the Story Mode and the system it will use are a secret.
There will be more retro/original game music tracks.
Release is not too far off.
A secret gameplay element will debut in the TGS Demo.

Apparently they figured out how to make more room on the UMD.

[bluestarultor]

Sounds pretty sweet to me. Maybe they made it dual-layer? Either that or the original wasn't as full as people thought.

[Melfice]

# The meaning behind "012" is a spoiler.

... the game is gonna follow the story of FF 12?

[Doc ock rokc]

Apparently they figured out how to make more room on the UMD.

A hell of a lot more room by the looks of things. i am however a bit concerned about their controls.

[bluestarultor]

... the game is gonna follow the story of FF 12?

Oh, god, don't even joke about that! :(

A hell of a lot more room by the looks of things. i am however a bit concerned about their controls.

Controls are going to be the exact same with a couple additions. The assist system is that new bar. If you have half of it full, you can call your ally for a Brave attack, where if it's full, you can call out for an HP attack.

Edit: Or I could have read POS' post.

[POS Industries]

Controls are going to be the exact same with a couple additions.
Basically, the only thing that's getting more complicated is that now the L button is used for more than just target lockons, but it's still not as bad as the clusterfuck of things the R button is already involved with.

[Cloud Strife]

I personally think they did a fantastic job with the control setup when you consider how many different functions they wanted in the game (and how well they ended up being executed, as well).

[mudah.swf]

Personaly kinda have a Problem with street fighter where Someone that mashes or does the same move over and over again can beat someone that knows all the combos. In Dissida that isn't possible.

If you were trying to bait me into making a long, angry post about why you're completely wrong on that front you did a really goddamn good job of it.

To actually be on topic, most of the changes are cool except how assists can break combos, which is literally the WORST FUCKING THING THEY COULD HAVE DONE, EVER. I have slapped on my tinfoil hat here about this, that's how bad it will be unless they're REALLY clever about it. Nice to see them let you use your Dissidia saves though.

[bluestarultor]

If you were trying to bait me into making a long, angry post about why you're completely wrong on that front you did a really goddamn good job of it.

To actually be on topic, most of the changes are cool except how assists can break combos, which is literally the WORST FUCKING THING THEY COULD HAVE DONE, EVER. I have slapped on my tinfoil hat here about this, that's how bad it will be unless they're REALLY clever about it. Nice to see them let you use your Dissidia saves though.

I really don't see how the assists breaking combos is so bad. They limit you to a maximum of two at once, if they even let you choose to not use both bars in your HP assist when you have them. It's a situational aid.

[Kim]

Because it's breaking a combo, something that you need to be at least somewhat skilled to pull off, with the press of a button in a sort of Rock, Paper, Shotgun scenario.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If you were trying to bait me into making a long, angry post about why you're completely wrong on that front you did a really goddamn good job of it.

To actually be on topic, most of the changes are cool except how assists can break combos, which is literally the WORST FUCKING THING THEY COULD HAVE DONE, EVER. I have slapped on my tinfoil hat here about this, that's how bad it will be unless they're REALLY clever about it. Nice to see them let you use your Dissidia saves though.

How you going to hit me when my blanka is all lightning!!?!!?!

[Kim]

Hadoken.

The main people who make the "button mashing works better" complaint are the people who didn't really take time to learn the game. Yes, there is a temporary downward trend in skill when you're first learning the game, because you're still getting used the the controls and learning the combos. However, after you actually get the hang of it, you're have a definite advantage over a button masher and will win more often than not. Once you start to get into the more tricky aspects of the fighting game, which Mudah would be more qualified to talk about than I, a button masher *really* isn't going to be a problem.

[mudah.swf]

The thing with combos breakers is that it sounds like a fucking awesome idea on paper and then you actually play a game where you can break combos whenever the fuck you want and it sucks. One goddamned combo breaker is enough, you don't need too. Naruto UNS let you break combos with assists, and that game was shit for anything except a laugh. It wasn't even good at that either. Having a risk-free combo breaker outright makes the game unfun because you get punished for attacking, even if the opponent makes a mistake. Jump Ultimate Stars let you break combos with assists, which was also the downfall of that game. It doesn't matter if it needs meter, the fact that it's there is more than bad enough.

If I was in charge of this and was told I had to let assists break combos, I would make them cost the entire secondary meter to use and make them blow both players away from each other so that the match is essentially reset. If you can get a combo off of a combo breaker this game is ruined, sorry.

I could even go into a big spergy explanation about why combo breakers for the most part don't result in fun for anyone.

[Squall Leonhart]

[...]
If I was in charge of this and was told I had to let assists break combos, I would make them cost the entire secondary meter to use and make them blow both players away from each other so that the match is essentially reset. If you can get a combo off of a combo breaker this game is ruined, sorry.

I could even go into a big spergy explanation about why combo breakers for the most part don't result in fun for anyone.That's kinda what happens in Tatsunoko vs Capcom though. You use two meters and a part of your life bar, and the other player gets blown away but suffers no damage.

[mudah.swf]

The other player can burst your burst in the corner btw, and bursts put the bursted player in a juggle state so they can be combo'd off of. But still, that system kind of blew because you could build meter fast and still burst whenever. IMO Guilty Gear did it best, putting bursts on a seperate meter that took a while to recover.

[bluestarultor]

The thing with combos breakers is that it sounds like a fucking awesome idea on paper and then you actually play a game where you can break combos whenever the fuck you want and it sucks. One goddamned combo breaker is enough, you don't need too. Naruto UNS let you break combos with assists, and that game was shit for anything except a laugh. It wasn't even good at that either. Having a risk-free combo breaker outright makes the game unfun because you get punished for attacking, even if the opponent makes a mistake. Jump Ultimate Stars let you break combos with assists, which was also the downfall of that game. It doesn't matter if it needs meter, the fact that it's there is more than bad enough.

If I was in charge of this and was told I had to let assists break combos, I would make them cost the entire secondary meter to use and make them blow both players away from each other so that the match is essentially reset. If you can get a combo off of a combo breaker this game is ruined, sorry.

I could even go into a big spergy explanation about why combo breakers for the most part don't result in fun for anyone.

The other player can burst your burst in the corner btw, and bursts put the bursted player in a juggle state so they can be combo'd off of. But still, that system kind of blew because you could build meter fast and still burst whenever. IMO Guilty Gear did it best, putting bursts on a seperate meter that took a while to recover.

I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to accept the "it's evil because it's there" argument. What about the Brave system? You have to pick up little orbs to gain Brave, right? Yeah, you beat them out of the other guy, but it works well enough. It's not like you're going to get a free Assist bar or else there would be little point in having it, much less in two sections. Like any bar in the series, it's probably going to be one you have to build and/or take damage to. I'd imagine they'll be putting in a new orb to collect during battle to build it up, or give you a certain amount per hit you land, or maybe per hit you take. Either way, filling it is either going to be a reward for you already doing well or be a balancing factor to give you a last shot if you're doing poorly. I highly doubt it's going to be so cheap as to just fill over time.

Sometimes things people think are bad ideas have just simply been done poorly previously.

I can see where you'd say that it punishes you for attacking the other player, but that's not even true in all cases. We don't know if you'll be able to combo out of it yet, for one. For two, call me crazy, but from what I've seen of Dissidia, it doesn't even seem to rely that heavily on combos. This isn't a game where it boils down to who gets in the first hit and there isn't even any worry of being cornered. You have a wide, round field and the full volume of three dimensions to work with. Combos are most reliable in either 2 or a line.

[Wizardcat]

What about the Brave system? You have to pick up little orbs to gain Brave, right? Yeah, you beat them out of the other guy, but it works well enough.
That's 'EX Force', not BRV, I think. /hasn't played the game, either.

[Kim]

That's 'EX Force', not BRV, I think. /hasn't played the game, either.

You would be correct.

This isn't a game where it boils down to who gets in the first hitIt can be at times.

Also, Blues, just throwing this out there, but perhaps you're not the most qualified person to talk about Dissidia, seeing as you haven't played it. Your relevant degrees don't really mean much if you haven't played the game you're talking about.

[bluestarultor]

Also, Blues, just throwing this out there, but perhaps you're not the most qualified person to talk about Dissidia, seeing as you haven't played it. You're relevant degrees don't really mean much if you haven't played the game you're talking about.

Did I mention them? I really didn't think I mentioned them. :ohdear:

*looks*

Oh, good, I was worried there for a sec. Don't scare me like that.



My point is there's little reason to think they're not making a workable system out of it. There are means by which it could be good, bad, or neutral. Obviously, if you get a full bar every five seconds, that's bad, but there are other ways to meter the points out that can add to the game. Consider Grandia's HP, MP, and SP system. SP is earned and provides you with powerful assets, but it's not just given to you so easily. If you blow it all, it can be hard to get back. MP doesn't heal at all, but you have items that refill it. Two systems for two important aspects of the series.

Obviously, putting assists as an item-healed stat would be retarded, but as long as it has its own unique and balanced way of refilling, it adds a new layer to combat.

None of us knows how it's going to work yet. I'm just being more optimistic that it won't ruin the whole game.

[Kim]

Yes, but Mudah has more experience with Dissidia than you do, and he has much more experience with the genre than you do. When he has a concern like this, it is safe to say it is because he has seen how other games handle similar mechanics, and how Dissidia has generally handled its mechanics. Your earlier argument about the controls was yet another example of you talking about something you didn't have personal experience with. Mudah has played the game. When he says he'd prefer it with more buttons, it is based in his experience with the game, and that he feels more buttons would fix issues he had with the controls, however slight. You have not played the game.

You cannot speak personally for how well the controls work, and arguing that the game wouldn't benefit from more buttons smacks of you going out of your way to defend the game just for the sake of doing so. If you had played the game, and were able to argue from that personal experience, it would be a different story, but you haven't played the game. You're going out of your way to be contrary, with little basis to back it up other than "Well, you don't know that," which is far from being a strong argument. I understand that you have experience with programming, yet I feel you exaggerate the perspective it gives you, and shortsell the experiences of actual game players. This can be frustrating, both from a spectators point of view, and especially when someone is arguing something with you. Your reasons are generally fairly thought out to a degree, but are missing that important element of personal experience to back them up.

[bluestarultor]

Yes, but Mudah has more experience with Dissidia than you do, and he has much more experience with the genre than you do. When he has a concern like this, it is safe to say it is because he has seen how other games handle similar mechanics, and how Dissidia has generally handled its mechanics. Your earlier argument about the controls was yet another example of you talking about something you didn't have personal experience with. Mudah has played the game. When he says he'd prefer it with more buttons, it is based in his experience with the game, and that he feels more buttons would fix issues he had with the controls, however slight. You have not played the game.

This I will concede.

You cannot speak personally for how well the controls work, and arguing that the game wouldn't benefit from more buttons smacks of you going out of your way to defend the game just for the sake of doing so. If you had played the game, and were able to argue from that personal experience, it would be a different story, but you haven't played the game. You're going out of your way to be contrary, with little basis to back it up other than "Well, you don't know that," which is far from being a strong argument. I understand that you have experience with programming, yet I feel you exaggerate the perspective it gives you, and shortsell the experiences of actual game players. This can be frustrating, both from a spectators point of view, and especially when someone is arguing something with you. Your reasons are generally fairly thought out to a degree, but are missing that important element of personal experience to back them up.

Let me introduce you to second-hand experience. My brother has played the game plenty and I've asked him about these things. In his personal experience, the controls were fine, for one. He actually told me he felt there was plenty of room for more when I asked him specifically when this thread started into that subject. Even though I'm in Green Bay, seriously, one cell phone call away, a nice conversation, and I come out with an actual player's opinion.

I'm not going out of my way to be contrary. I'm offering a different perspective. It's not like I haven't played any games, ever, here, or even never played any fighting games, ever. I just haven't personally ever gotten my hands on Dissidia. I admitted it. It's not like I tried to pretend otherwise.

See, this entire "your opinion is invalid for XYZ reason" stuff? I really take umbrage with that. Your opinion may be different from mine, but there's no need to work so hard to run mine into the ground. I'm providing an opinion with the knowledge I have, which is just weighted in different areas. I'm more on the technical thought process. In this last example, the difference between a good system and a bad system is numbers. There are only so many ways to fill a bar and any one of them could work depending on the numbers used.



I'm going to go cool off now. I can understand disagreeing with my opinion, but I really do prefer if people at least respect it.

[Nikose Tyris]

[Note: sat on this post before throwing it for an hour. Queried internet, Blues said to go ahead, and since this post is 90% against him, I figured I may as well post it.]

Let me introduce you to second-hand experience. My brother has played the game plenty and I've asked him about these things. In his personal experience, the controls were fine, for one. He actually told me he felt there was plenty of room for more when I asked him specifically when this thread started into that subject. Even though I'm in Green Bay, seriously, one cell phone call away, a nice conversation, and I come out with an actual player's opinion.

This entire thing here would imply that Mudah and everyone else who disagrees with your opinion [which is based on whatever your brother tells you] is not an actual player. I would have to say that actual player's opinion first hand trumps your secondhand everything, Blues.

I'm not going out of my way to be contrary. I'm offering a different perspective. It's not like I haven't played any games, ever, here, or even never played any fighting games, ever. I just haven't personally ever gotten my hands on Dissidia. I admitted it. It's not like I tried to pretend otherwise.

You don't have an opinion. Your brother has an opinion.

Related: I tested on Super Street Fighter II: Turbo HD Remix, so I'm clearly totally qualified to give my opinion on why cornerwhoring in these games is wrong, and why dissidia suffers from it horribly. The thing I hate most about it is when I get locked into a corner and I get stunlocked for hours. I'm glad I have such a big health bar that I can be juggled and still, if I'm lucky, get out of it!

I haven't actually played THIS game, but I've played other fighting games and my roommate Shane has a copy of this game and I just asked him if he dislikes cornerwhoring while he was playing it, and he agreed with me.


See, this entire "your opinion is invalid for XYZ reason" stuff? I really take umbrage with that. Your opinion may be different from mine, but there's no need to work so hard to run mine into the ground. I'm providing an opinion with the knowledge I have, which is just weighted in different areas. I'm more on the technical thought process. In this last example, the difference between a good system and a bad system is numbers. There are only so many ways to fill a bar and any one of them could work depending on the numbers used.

This is the reason people rip you apart. You claim knowledge in fields where, regardless of how much 'actual real experience programming and making games omg you guys and junk' you have, it doesn't apply. I didn't walk in and correct Smarty and NonCon by saying that anybody can stop Blanka's roundhouse using a hitbox exploit by getting your frames so that a tiny portion of the foot of your attacker dips into the lightning aura to damage and knock Blanka back when you use crouch+low kick.

Every time you walk in with "I have more experience because X", regardless of if it is valid or not, you end up looking very arrogant, and yeah, people are going to step up and knock you for it.

I'm going to go cool off now. I can understand disagreeing with my opinion, but I really do prefer if people at least respect it.

When you develop your own opinion on the situation from hands on experience, and don't dismiss actual player's valid opinions in favor of your second-hand opinions, people will respect them more.




IN RELATION TO THIS GAME:

This may be game #2 I pick up for my PSP. :/ I really need to get more for it.

[bluestarultor]

That's fair enough. I can respect that reasoning.

I'll be honest and say it'll be a cold day in Hell when I get my brain to stop thinking in design mode. Designing stuff takes up most of my time, up and down both.

On the other hand, now that I've had time to chill, looking at my posts, I see I've been arguing against opinions too hard instead of considering and integrating them, which is wrong of me, especially from a design standpoint. I realize I do that more with online feedback than meatspace feedback on my own work and I guess the same applies here.

So, apologies. Especially to Mudah. It's really not fair that I treated your opinion as less valuable than my brother's just because you're online, especially given your experience with the genre as a whole. Yours should actually be more valuable, or at least worth much better consideration than I gave it, regardless of it being online.

[POS Industries]

Because it's breaking a combo, something that you need to be at least somewhat skilled to pull off
Haha no. Choose two:

Dissidia
Combos
Skill

The only exception is Jecht, but otherwise the characters with combos just require you to mash circle until you get to the part where you have a BP-to-HP link and then you hit square at the end.

There's some amount of taking advantage of some lazy coding in regard to stagger time vs. dodge time during melee combos where you can dodge cancel in the middle of one and, with no resistance whatsoever, engage another combo and THEN link to an HP move, but all that means is that you're inserting R+X in the middle of your circle-mashing, and apparently it's something they largely fixed in the Universal Tuning version (which is the balancing they'll be running on with Duodecim) so you're pretty much back to circle mashing with a square finale for most characters.

[Flarecobra]

The only exception is Jecht, but otherwise the characters with combos just require you to mash circle until you get to the part where you have a BP-to-HP link and then you hit square at the end.


And Cloud of Darkness. Her Brave attacks require combo timing...

[POS Industries]

Yeah, but she doesn't really combo them. It's just initiating a single move, and the only one that one might try to use an assist to try breaking them out of it would just end up getting the partner caught in it or their attack reflected.

[Flarecobra]

Well, the only way to tell for sure is by playing the game when it comes out.

[POS Industries]

Well, I'm just going by how it is now and what happens when a dude dives face-first into CoD's tentacles-o-doom.

They could totally change everything around with Duodecim, of course.

[Regulus Tera]

http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/31431

Looks... like Super Dissidia.

EDIT: Another one: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/tgs-10-dissidia-final/704580

[POS Industries]

Works for me.

Also call me when someone other than what I can assume was the most boring man in Japan gets a turn at playing the demo.

EDIT: Well, Kain's EX burst is insanely rad, at least.

[Flarecobra]

...Now THAT is a Jump attack.

[Regulus Tera]

Holy Dragoon Kain = The After Years confirmed to be canon. :( LAME LAME LAME

[POS Industries]

Holy Dragoon Kain = The After Years confirmed to be canon. :( LAME LAME LAME
Yeah, the possible implications of this revelation are something of a drag. Therefore, I'm not going to think about them!

[Regulus Tera]

Genesis as the new FFVII representative.

One of those Eagle guys from Revenant Wings instead of Balthier.

EDIT: Apparently Ophan's Cradle is confirmed as one of the new stages too.