Pokemon Umbral Theatre 6: Player Conspiracies [Archive]

Geminex

09-14-2010, 01:32 AM

No, I'm just getting into this again! Let's finish it quickly, sure. But let's, y'know, at least do that killing ourselves. At least another two turns or so.

Gem, I thought you were going to put your character's speech in red in your RP posts? Your edited placeholder seemed to be missing that.
...
What?
First, Impact's speech is orange. Second, I never use that anyway. Red is the color that you guys use if you want to say something to me. I don't use colors, cause I trust that you read everything I write in minute detail.

Also, re: infinity crushes.
Fair enough. Really, a plot-device-cum-signature-technique? Sure. Might be fun.

But if it's ever, EVER used in a PVP environment (or, for that matter, in the sequel, when the two PC sides aren't allied), I keel you. Seriously.

Actually, Charlotte's also going to get one in relatively short order, compliments of her having the blood of Phantomere.

Also, what the fuck? I spent at least a dozen posts hyping up the Scythetip that Impact dramatically took from Phantomere (seriously, just look at Renny's sidequest), only to be told by Mika that it won't really do very much unless I fuse it with a weapon, whereas Charlotte scoops up some slime, never mentions it again, and now it justifies an uber technique for her? There's some elementary unfairness here.

Edit:
Oh, and Menarker?
Regarding this:
"Shaymin, use Psychic on Impact! Focus on purging the mental assaults! Bloodsoul, Bloody Rose, do the same with Wormadam and Unownaut!"
I'm pretty sure we agreed that Renny wasn't giving orders this turn. No, I don't care that he's barely saying anything. He gives no orders, period. Shaymin is fine. The rest, not so much. Edit it now and we won't mention it again. :)

Dracorion

09-14-2010, 01:39 AM

Charlotte doesn't really get Love-Techs, though.

Menarker

09-14-2010, 01:40 AM

Fine fine. I edited it. Seriously, you made it seem like it would be ok, since you roleplayed Impact being too concerned with his head to directly order anyone specifically to help him.

And by color, I meant your character's color when speaking. Like how Renny speaks in lime green in the RP. Your last post was all one color, so it was hard to see where Impact was actually giving orders or yelling or so.

Geminex

09-14-2010, 01:49 AM

Fine fine. I edited it. Seriously, you made it seem like it would be ok, since you roleplayed Impact being too concerned with his head to directly order anyone specifically to help him.
The edit is fine. And yeah, Impact would have had no problem with it. I would. But anyway, thanks.

And by color, I meant your character's color when speaking. Like how Renny speaks in lime green in the RP. Your last post was all one color, so it was hard to see where Impact was actually giving orders or yelling or so.
Yah. Like I said, Impact's color is orange, but I rarely use it. Usually it's enough to paragraph. In fact, let me get right on that.

Charlotte doesn't really get Love-Techs, though.
I think she will once we reach her sidequest. Though I see your point. I'm not asking for Charlotte to not get her technique, or for Impact to get his before. But the whole "Hyping up the scythetip" thing I did was mostly because I wanted to use the Scythetip's influence to justify some of Impact's character development. When Mika told him "Well, it might improve your weapon", that hope got dashed, sadly, but I didn't argue. Until now. Cause if Charlotte can get an uber technique out of something that was merely mentioned in the passing, I'd hope that I can get some character development out of a minor plot device that I actually put effort into.

And regarding mission length: Would you guys be ok with going another few turns, or do you really insist on ending this now?

Dracorion

09-14-2010, 01:53 AM

Nope.

You get Dinner, and you get to rule the world.

And I don't think we should ban Infinity Crushes from the sequel, either. They're rare enough that they won't be a tide-turner in the overall war. And you realize with your mind-control, you could probably influence your troops to make Infinity Crushes more likely to happen on your side?

Why do you want to keep this mission going, Gem, other than "you just got back into it"?

Maybe you just don't want to pass leadership over to Charlotte.

Geminex

09-14-2010, 03:01 AM

And I don't think we should ban Infinity Crushes from the sequel, either. They're rare enough that they won't be a tide-turner in the overall war. And you realize with your mind-control, you could probably influence your troops to make Infinity Crushes more likely to happen on your side?
Well, I don't wanna ban them. Just make sure that, since there's nothing regulating this other that DM will, nobody benefits unfairly. This isn't a problem as long as we're on the same side. But if we're actually playing against each other, the existence of these crushes can give one side a really unfair advantage, since, like I said, they're more-or-less arbitrary. Even if the tactical situation is similar, strategically, one crush can make a huge difference where a similar crush would make little. And crushes can make a huge difference. If this were an actual war, no. Wouldn't matter. Ten guys more or less, a skirmish won or lost. Who cares? But as it is, it's an RP. Meaning it comes down to characters and drama. So we need to either find some, probably quite complex, way of controlling when one happens. Or we can just make them out of the question during PvP. I prefer the latter, particularly since we hopefully won't be PvPing too much, even in the sequel.

Why do you want to keep this mission going, Gem, other than "you just got back into it"?

Maybe you just don't want to pass leadership over to Charlotte.
Well, first, I'd like to actually kill my opponents, instead of watch them be killed.

Secondly, yes, this is probably gonna be Impact's last mission in charge. If it was initially supposed to go longer, I don't wanna cut it short beforehand.

As for that last bit...
Why...
It almost sounds as if you're questioning my honesty! Somehow implying that I wouldn't abide by our deal!
Almost, mind you. Because I cannot believe that you'd insult me so. That would not be kind...
Not to mention that calling my motivations into question casts your own in a very unfavorable light.

Astral Harmony

09-14-2010, 05:43 AM

No, I'm just getting into this again! Let's finish it quickly, sure. But let's, y'know, at least do that killing ourselves. At least another two turns or so.

As the leader wishes.

Fair enough. Really, a plot-device-cum-signature-technique? Sure. Might be fun.

But if it's ever, EVER used in a PVP environment (or, for that matter, in the sequel, when the two PC sides aren't allied), I keel you. Seriously.

It could happen in a PvP environment. I have said, and will continue to say that the Infinity Crush is a fickle beast and is accessible only through the plot.

Also, what the fuck? I spent at least a dozen posts hyping up the Scythetip that Impact dramatically took from Phantomere (seriously, just look at Renny's sidequest), only to be told by Mika that it won't really do very much unless I fuse it with a weapon, whereas Charlotte scoops up some slime, never mentions it again, and now it justifies an uber technique for her? There's some elementary unfairness here.

What can I say? It's a rinky dink scythetip from a weapon that wasn't really all that magical in the first place.

Tell ya what. Use the scythetip to cut a deep gash in both of your wrists. I promise it'll make you powerful.

*covers mouth so Impact doesn't see me grinning evilly*

I'm not asking for Charlotte to not get her technique, or for Impact to get his before. But the whole "Hyping up the scythetip" thing I did was mostly because I wanted to use the Scythetip's influence to justify some of Impact's character development. When Mika told him "Well, it might improve your weapon", that hope got dashed, sadly, but I didn't argue. Until now. Cause if Charlotte can get an uber technique out of something that was merely mentioned in the passing, I'd hope that I can get some character development out of a minor plot device that I actually put effort into.

Justify how, exactly? Did you bother to send me a PM about what you wanted the scythetip to even do? All this time I thought you drilled a little hole into it and wore it as a pendant.

Your scythetip is as silly and ineffectual as Pierce's staff that...y'know, came from the same goddamned weapon? Not much to justify there.

No, wait. I got it. Impact was going to use the scythetip to slice open the throats of all his comrades in a bid to gain great power. Honestly, I dunno why you continue to claim that Impact's not evil. The fact that Impact wanted to murder Renny just because he got handpicked to be the leader, without even thinking about why, spells villain with a capital V in my book.

And let me just say that killing your friends with the scythetip does not make it or you more powerful. I'd rather you didn't entertain that thought because I'd rather I didn't find a way to kill your character in order to save everyone else.

Geminex

09-14-2010, 05:58 AM

Edit: In fact, a lot of that came out wrong. I was feeling sorta down. Lemme rephrase.

It could happen in a PvP environment. I have said, and will continue to say that the Infinity Crush is a fickle beast and is accessible only through the plot.

Eh. I can't stop you. But, when it happens, do try to keep things fair? I would be annoyed if I had set up some gambit to ensnare the other team, only to have them escape through not luck, or skill, but deus ex machina. Cause that's what this threatens to become, and being beaten because of it? Yeah, not fun. For either side, by the way, if they outsmart me, they deserve to win. Impact pulling a super move out of his ass would be bullshit.

Justify how, exactly? Did you bother to send me a PM about what you wanted the scythetip to even do? All this time I thought you drilled a little hole into it and wore it as a pendant.
Well, I had sorta hoped that all the stuff I wrote in-character about the tip would sorta tip you off, but fair enough. The entire point was that some of Phantomere's influence would linger in the scythetip and... encourage Impact's evil side. This'd, for one, justify his becoming an asshole CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, and, for another, give me the freedom to make a few other decisions, should they become necessary.
And hell, it's only a "rinky dink scythetip" because you say it is. If you say "It is affecting Impact's mind and making him more evil than he would be otherwise", then bam. It does that instead. If you say "It's a spaceship", it's a spaceship. Y'get my point.
In fact, screw character development. Make it a spaceship.

Honestly, I dunno why you continue to claim that Impact's not evil. The fact that Impact wanted to murder Renny just because he got handpicked to be the leader, without even thinking about why, spells villain with a capital V in my book.
Look, there's a difference between "rational thought" and "massive rage". He was possessed by the latter. Temporary insanity and all that jazz. And he probably wouldn't have shot Renny, even if it had been practical. I don't know (I was pretty angry myself when I made that post), but that wasn't his Very Evil Moment.

And let me just say that killing your friends with the scythetip does not make it or you more powerful. I'd rather you didn't entertain that thought because I'd rather I didn't find a way to kill your character in order to save everyone else.
Oh come on. This is from a Ruin General. Make it a source of character development, yes. Make it a source of power? Fuck no. Seriously, what gives you these ideas?

And why the threat? You can't honestly think that that was my plan. For that matter, you can't honestly think that any other character would die without your and that player's approval. Seriously, what do you take me for? Outside of PvP, no. Almost certainly not, unless, like I said, I get permission. In PvP, depends. If we play a real Free-for-all, no deals, no rules, then I'd be pissed if you stopped Impact from inflicting permanent damage.
But hell, if we make deals, if we agree on rules, if we ally, why'd I want to kill?

And even if I did, there'd be no need to threaten me with the death of my character. Like I said, if another character dies, only with your permission. I feel mildly insulted that you'd even think it necessary to warn me. Do I really seem that power-mad?

Menarker

09-14-2010, 10:06 AM

I know Gem doesn't want the mission to end prematurely, but I'm personally getting tired of fighting Moera with all her delays and her respawning minions that take away all my hopes.

Would be nice if Irene infinity crushed the rest of the minions, and we're just left with fighting against Moera and Mio (packing several tons of cinderblocks to prevent being ejected again). Fight against two bosses and whatever personal power they can muster (and no minions). I mean even by himself, Phantomere was a threat. And it was exciting to deal with a threat that we couldn't analyse and only knew it was a menace even by itself. At least it would be more exciting to me than having to slog through all the minions and being disappointed when even more comes. Also means less time wasted trying to plan who attacks what. ^^;

I mean, fighting minions is to be expected for a genre like this, but when it comes to this extreme, I feel runned ragged a bit. At the very least, I want to be able to attack the boss when they send out their minions, even if it means some extended risk as the minions attack you for leaving them alive. This "she summons minions and hides behind a shield" just screams "extended minion fight" since the boss isn't actively partipicating and we can't attack it back.

At least with Cerulean Wildfire, we could attack her, even when she came with minions. That and she came packing power that was deserving of her status. Moera? Hides behind a shield and her minions and otherwise lashes out randomly with her uncontrolled emotions via a totally random weather effect? Not quite that exciting personally... but that's me.

TLDR: Bosses with minions are fine. But I don't want bosses that can't do anything but hide behind minions, especially to the point where it is basically a boosted "random battle" that we can't run from. I want bosses to be able to fight with their own ability. If we finish off their minions, they should not come back, or they should only come by trickles. That should force the boss into getting serious and fighting with his or her unique powers. (Possible exception is if we delay or take way too long and the minions come in delayed waves)

^^; And that's my little rant. Sorry.

On a side-note, for cowards or evasive foes (or something incredibly large that only have a small number of tiny weak-points that are constantly moving) it would be AWESOME if we had some sort of bitching chase-scene or multi simtanleous multi-scene battle! Trying to outmaneuver the foe, Renny riding Togekiss by air, Pierce chasing underground alongside Adamitatar, Charlotte and her Hounds of War while riding Hammond or Buck, Matthias flying under his own power with Venomoth form as he scouts the area/boss for weakpoints or stragetic locations. Impact probably working with the other NPCs giving orders like postioning the destroyer or the sniper in key ambush locations. Plus, he can probably contribute a bit too by riding Latios!

^_^

Geminex

09-14-2010, 10:20 AM

I don't actually mind the slogging through minions and getting "run ragged". Mostly because, even if they're just psytellites. We're killing them. By god, we're doing damage, massive damage!

Same thing with Renny's sidequest: Sure, our side was getting hit by wave upon wave of Ruin types, and we were taking one hell of a lot of damage. But we were dealing way, way more.

And if there's one thing more satisfying that knowing you killed about 200 enemies that last battle, it's knowing that you did all the damage you could, cause you're exhausted as well.

But eh, that's just me. I don't think the minions will survive much longer anyway... if anything, Moera should be getting infinity crushed, since fighting against her will be pretty much nothing but piling attack upon attack.

Menarker

09-14-2010, 10:26 AM

>_> Then maybe I'm just annoyed that I was slated to Defog duty and nothing else for the last several rounds? I mean, really, I might as well have left for a month and no one would miss my character.

Basically, you're (you and everyone else attacking) Legolas on top of the walls of Helm's Deep with your bow and arrow, shooting all the orcs and having fun with that. I'm Gimli, stuck on the wall with my melee weapon unable to make any sort of meaningful contribution until the situation changes to the point (wall blown up degree of change) where I can contribute without being called to sit on the sidelines again.

I mean, really, I'm being held hostage by the system and unable to join in the fighting because not doing so would screw up everyone else.

I mean, if it only happened once or twice and no one knew when it was going to happen, I can see the character being appreciated for utility. But as long as the source of the fog is constantly renewing every turn, the character is being locked down to prevent a fog that is known to come next turn if the required action is not done. And that takes away a lot of the enjoyment from that player (which has been me for the longest time because no one wants to do it, and everyone votes for me to do it).

As for the psytellites, I don't like them suddenly respawning all like that. I mean, why couldn't Moera have summoned all those in the first place and cause more trouble? It's all sorts of false hopes and expectations taken to the extreme. I would prefer if they had more health, but when they went down, they STAYED down. THAT would be more statisfying, and the remaining foes left would be the goal-line that I can look forward to. But with them respawning, I'm feeling adrift because it's like we're repeating the same round over again because it wasn't good enough the first time. The difficulty could have been raised by other means like the psyshades going berserk, the storm getting worse, Moera directly attacking someone. But repeating the previous round with one or two little changes takes out a lot of the excitement.

Minion fights are fine, but bosses are bosses for reasons. They should be able to summon attacks that far exceed their frame or what level of power any of us can do individually (never mind 2 or 3 of us combined). Even if we're piling attacks on her, she would probably have a myriad of attacks that would keep us on our toes. Maybe have counterattacks, or weak points that need to be unlocked like in your battle with Lexhur.

Dracorion

09-14-2010, 11:30 AM

As the leader wishes.

Goddamnit fuck you Geminex.

No, seriously, Gem should not be able to pull this bullshit. His character is leader in-RP? Sure. Geminex himself is in charge of balancing? Okay. Geminex can decide when we end battles, without consideration for the rest of our opinions? No fuck you.

Menarker

09-14-2010, 11:58 AM

Language aside, I agree. Geminex is a player just like Drac, me, Bard or Dante. Despite the fact that he has been granted privileges of balancing and leadership IN THE RP, that doesn't take away that he is still a player of equal standing. His words should not have any more weight than anyone else when it comes to any particular matters. The only exception we have allowed was the LITTLE extra power he has for balancing purposes, since that was agreed on by everyone else. But that should not spill into unrelated issues.

Astral Harmony

09-14-2010, 01:12 PM

Understood. I'll go ahead and end the battle tonight.

I'll also think very hard about what I can do about that scythetip. The thing that happens to Charlotte's jar of ectoplasm leaves me with very little to think about in terms of any great things for the scythetip and the staff except as weapon components.

I have a good idea as to how Impact does acquire his Infinity Crush. I just need to think it through a little. Find a way to flesh it out.

Bard The 5th LW

09-14-2010, 02:41 PM

Also, what the fuck? I spent at least a dozen posts hyping up the Scythetip that Impact dramatically took from Phantomere (seriously, just look at Renny's sidequest), only to be told by Mika that it won't really do very much unless I fuse it with a weapon, whereas Charlotte scoops up some slime, never mentions it again, and now it justifies an uber technique for her? There's some elementary unfairness awesomeness here.

Fix'd it for you.

Don't blame me for having the proper foresight to grab the seemingly insignificant item.

Dracorion

09-14-2010, 03:21 PM

And Pierce at least had the sense to grab the one that was of practical use.

Face it, Gem, you fail at genre savvy.

Menarker

09-14-2010, 03:34 PM

>_> Why do I get the awful feeling that once the battle is over and Moera is dead, a bunch of you guys are going to loot the contents of her underage corpse in the hope of getting trace bonuses of mystical psychic powers from her parts?

Hell, for that matter, I'm kinda glad none of you guys were on Renny's side during my sidequest, or you'd all probably loot the remains of the Dark and Light too. (That and Lexhur surrendered and remained alive) >_<

Dracorion

09-14-2010, 03:42 PM

Moera doesn't have any cool weapons, so I don't think Pierce or Impact would go near her.

Anything goes for Charlotte, though.

Bard The 5th LW

09-14-2010, 04:40 PM

I was actually hoping to make trophy claiming a recurring theme of Charlotte.

She plans to go back and cut a leg or two off crown-legs. Maybe an eye and a pincer or something.

Dracorion

09-14-2010, 04:58 PM

A pincer would be cooler.

Geminex

09-14-2010, 07:13 PM

The thing that happens to Charlotte's jar of ectoplasm leaves me with very little to think about in terms of any great things for the scythetip and the staff except as weapon components.
Oh come on. We can't just go "Why yes, it does retain some of Phantomere's influence, which is corrupting Impact!"?

And no, fuck you guys.
I'm fine with the whole "Geminex doesn't lead us OOC" thing, I probably should have corrected AB on that one myself.
But it does piss me off that we're cutting the mission short like this. We certainly haven't reached any sort of conclusion IC, and, like I said, Impact's had an opportunity to give orders once, since I started posting frequently again. That annoys me, and don't give me any of your "Oh, well, I guess you shouldn't be moving across continents and starting uni and visiting your parents in Shanghai then BLUH BLUH", cause that's just a douchebag thing to say.

Look, if you really, really want to end it early (though Menarker, if the defog thing is your only problem, shouldn't you be taking it out on Drac, rather than me? I wasn't responsible), fine. But if we do this, then I'm missing out on giving orders, so I'm gonna ask for compensation. Three opportunities to give orders in the final boss battle next mission. It's what I'm missing out this mission.

Dracorion

09-14-2010, 08:20 PM

But it does piss me off that we're cutting the mission short like this. We certainly haven't reached any sort of conclusion IC, and, like I said, Impact's had an opportunity to give orders once, since I started posting frequently again.

Technically we outvote you.

That annoys me, and don't give me any of your "Oh, well, I guess you shouldn't be moving across continents and starting uni and visiting your parents in Shanghai then BLUH BLUH", cause that's just a douchebag thing to say.

But I am a douchebag.

Look, if you really, really want to end it early (though Menarker, if the defog thing is your only problem, shouldn't you be taking it out on Drac, rather than me? I wasn't responsible), fine.

Renny's only attack that's super-effective against the Psytellites and Psyshades is Umbreon's Assurance.

In fact, the only reason he's not on Defog duty now is because Shaymin has Psychic to depossess Impact and Matthias and, while it doesn't have STAB, it does get boosted by Moon's Amplifier.

But if we do this, then I'm missing out on giving orders, so I'm gonna ask for compensation. Three opportunities to give orders in the final boss battle next mission. It's what I'm missing out this mission.

Hmmmm...

If we do this, and I'm not agreeing yet, we do this by the letter. Impact only gets to give orders for three turns during the final boss battle.

The reason I'm not sure about this? AB said Impact would get to lead a team for Pierce's sidequest, while Charlotte leads the other. Except it doesn't have to be that way. Since Impact will presumably recieve the same rank as Renny (tactician) once he hands leadership to Charlotte, it would be perfectly justifiable in-RP for Renny to lead the second team instead of Impact.

Astral Harmony

09-15-2010, 01:05 AM

Honey, I'm home.

Now to post so that maybe I have some time to play CoH/V. I never knew Electricity Dominators were so badass.

EDIT: Forgive the post. A lot of information had to be put out and I kinda jumbled it all trying to get it all done before I forgot any of it.

Geminex

09-15-2010, 06:03 AM

Technically we outvote you.
Last time we put something to a vote I ended up with four out of five characters supporting me, bossed you guys around a bit, then traded that in for a balanced RP. And I'm not even done yet. You really want to put this to a vote?

Besides, should it be a vote? This affects me more than it does you.

Personally, I'm thinking it shouldn't have been. Cause this? This is exactly what I'm talking about! I worked on that plan! I wanted to see it play out! I did not fucking want it to be handwaved by AB going "the bad guys die". Not that I blame him, you guys asked him to do this. And, like I said, it's fucking bullshit that it played out like this.

But I am a douchebag.
http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad317/geminex/drac3.jpg
Glad we agree on something at least.

Lemme take that last bit apart.

If we do this, and I'm not agreeing yet, we do this by the letter. Impact only gets to give orders for three turns during the final boss battle.

The reason I'm not sure about this? AB said Impact would get to lead a team for Pierce's sidequest, while Charlotte leads the other.
Sooo...
Basically you're saying that I get to give orders three times during the final battle, and in return I give up my chance to lead one of our two parties during that mission? And you call this "adequate compensation"?
...
Yeah, I'm gonna go with "Fuck you in that rubber tube thing that the salt water usually comes out of".

Since Impact will presumably recieve the same rank as Renny (tactician) once he hands leadership to Charlotte, it would be perfectly justifiable in-RP for Renny to lead the second team instead of Impact.
As for this bit... Huh. Hadn't we agreed on that? I thought we were just doing it as normal, with special provisions for the guy whose sidequest it is. Meaning that while Pierce is capable of giving orders to us, I'm fine with him leader. If he isn't, we default to Charlotte.

And when it comes to the second group, isn't it up to Charlotte to appoint a deputy? You're right, all the tacticians are of the same rank. It's up to the officer to decide which subordinate is best suited to a particular task. Isn't it?

Edit:
And, y'know what? Screw that suggestion I've made before. You've pretty much fucked this mission over, the next one's your sidequest, the one after that's... an arena mission? The beach? Either way sucks.
Yeah, how about something else.
First, I'd like us to all agree that we won't ask AB to cut missions short. If he gets bored of them and wants to end them early, fine. But if we start a mission, then for the love of god, let's just finish it! It'll help prevent stuff like this from happening, and it'll actually feel like we achieved something, instead of entering a cheat code to "end mission early".
Second, I mentioned in that agreement we made that I retained the right to negotiate Impact's leadership during the final mission. I'm willing to forget about the way you guys screwed me over this mission, no compensation of any sort necessary. That'll count towards the final mission thing. Won't reach it, I agree that I need more than that. But it counts towards it. How much exactly... we'll see. But I'm thinking 10% at least, 15 if you consider that for quite a few turns I did nothing.

Menarker

09-15-2010, 10:16 AM

Lemme take that last bit apart.

Sooo...
Basically you're saying that I get to give orders three times during the final battle, and in return I give up my chance to lead one of our two parties during that mission? And you call this "adequate compensation"?
...
Yeah, I'm gonna go with "Fuck you in that rubber tube thing that the salt water usually comes out of".

As for this bit... Huh. Hadn't we agreed on that? I thought we were just doing it as normal, with special provisions for the guy whose sidequest it is. Meaning that while Pierce is capable of giving orders to us, I'm fine with him leader. If he isn't, we default to Charlotte.

And when it comes to the second group, isn't it up to Charlotte to appoint a deputy? You're right, all the tacticians are of the same rank. It's up to the officer to decide which subordinate is best suited to a particular task. Isn't it?

If it's any reassurance, Renny likely won't be leading during the mission, so you won't have to give up leadership for the mission, assuming it gets split up into two groups. The only thing I would want is for Whitney and Lola to be in one of the groups.

So... Renny got richer from bringing his Mollesk for a check-up. Guess Pierce and later on, Charlotte should bring their pokemons in too for some quick cash. :3

AB: If I recall correctly, isn't this intermission phase the one you said where the pokebrids are probably going into heat? Or you saving that until later?

Also, do we have a time frame for how long the intermission is before the next mission?

Geminex

09-15-2010, 11:15 AM

So... Renny got richer from bringing his Mollesk for a check-up. Guess Pierce and later on, Charlotte should bring their pokemons in too for some quick cash. :3

Which is even more bullshit. I mean, if he sold it, yes. But getting a huge some of money for just having this pokemon through pure dumb luck and coincidence, that just shows how decadent this society is. I mean, consider what could have been done with this money. The hungry could have been fed. Children could have been educated. It could have gone into actual useful research. Nope, instead it goes to trainers who haven't done much to deserve it, and whose contribution, however minimal really does nothing to advance humanity. At all. How does Mollesk being discovered help anyone? How is it progress? How is it science? Why do people care enough about a trainer finding a new pokemon that it justifies this story being of the front page?

Not to mention, whose money is it anyway? Is that state funding? Are those fucking tax dollars that the trainers of as-of-yet unknown pokemon are getting? Seriously, what is this?

I mean goddammit. There's "We live in a pokemon world", and then there's this. Decadence.
Seriously, the world should be thankful that Impact's gonna take it over. He could hardly do a worse job at ruling it than is currently being done.

Menarker

09-15-2010, 11:30 AM

Well, Renny brought it over for a check-up. Ricewood probably analyzed Mollesk and got a tons of data on it that could be used for scientific purposes. In a society like Honmyrr where wild pokemon run rampant, knowing a pokemon's specific abilities helps law enforcement teams be able to control/counter them. Also, since Ricewood makes equipments and accessories for slayers, you can say that any discoveries that she makes from the contributions of trainers showing newly discovered pokemons help law enforcement and thus society. And that's before taking anything else in consideration like medicine and such... (She probably analyzed the Mollesk wine instead of drinking it... >_<)

In fact, you could probably say that it was Mollesk that inspired Ricewood to make the Crit accessory since Crits helps bypass the huge defenses that would come from it buffing itself. (If the crit is a massive one instead of a standard one).

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 11:56 AM

Sooo...
Basically you're saying that I get to give orders three times during the final battle, and in return I give up my chance to lead one of our two parties during that mission? And you call this "adequate compensation"?
...
Yeah, I'm gonna go with "Fuck you in that rubber tube thing that the salt water usually comes out of".

Actually, it was gonna be more of an either-or kinda thing.

...
Yeah, see that picture you drew.

Anyway, it was just an argument. I wasn't threatening or saying that it would be that way.

Edit:
And, y'know what? Screw that suggestion I've made before. You've pretty much fucked this mission over, the next one's your sidequest, the one after that's... an arena mission? The beach? Either way sucks.

Actually, the one after Pierce's is the beach mission.

We don't technically know when the arena mission will be, but I'm pretty sure it won't happen at least until after we've gone to the Netherworld.

Yeah, how about something else.
First, I'd like us to all agree that we won't ask AB to cut missions short. If he gets bored of them and wants to end them early, fine. But if we start a mission, then for the love of god, let's just finish it! It'll help prevent stuff like this from happening, and it'll actually feel like we achieved something, instead of entering a cheat code to "end mission early".

Sure.

Second, I mentioned in that agreement we made that I retained the right to negotiate Impact's leadership during the final mission. I'm willing to forget about the way you guys screwed me over this mission, no compensation of any sort necessary. That'll count towards the final mission thing. Won't reach it, I agree that I need more than that. But it counts towards it. How much exactly... we'll see. But I'm thinking 10% at least, 15 if you consider that for quite a few turns I did nothing.

Huh, did you?

And yeah, Renny getting some nice cash for providing detailed and potentially important information about a newly discovered pokemon doesn't really scream decadence all that much to me.

Astral Harmony

09-15-2010, 01:50 PM

AB: If I recall correctly, isn't this intermission phase the one you said where the pokebrids are probably going into heat? Or you saving that until later?

Thank you reminding me. If some posts have already been made, then I'll go ahead and kick off the Pokebrid shenanigans.

Also, do we have a time frame for how long the intermission is before the next mission?

The length of the intermission depends mostly on Dracorian. I think the best time to move things along is when he's already at Millenium House by himself. Then we'll find out about it.

Today's my duty day, and I intend to use that day to put all the new characters (Marionata, Twiloch, Mio, Sakuya, Silk, and Laurith) into the document so you can decide who to have in your respective DSS setups.

There will essentially three teams. Pierce, by himself, is the first team, so he doesn't make any DSS choices. He'll pick up and drop off characters throughout his little solo campaign.

That leaves a Main Entrance squad and a Maintenance Entrance squad. Certain characters won't be available. Lexhur's big ass is too big to participate, so he's gonna be sided with a fourth squad whose purpose is to wait outside and keep the bastards we want to kill from escaping. Rayleen and Sakuya will also not be available for mysterious reasons. I'll have to look at those PMs from Dracorian, but I think Chizuru also won't be available.

And don't be complaining about Renny getting money. I mean, it's just money. You guys make a lot of it on your own through your paychecks. All it really does is allow you to tell certain parts of your story in different ways.

Menarker

09-15-2010, 02:09 PM

What I meant in terms of time frame for the intermission was more like the length of time in character that passes before Pierce kicks things off. I doubt he'll wait several months, knowing that Sam is in Faynoc's clutches. But he'll probably be waiting for a little bit, hoping that PATCA acts fast enough or using that time to sneak enough info from looking up documents and asking innocuous questions until he feels he has enough info to dive in by himself. Which might be about 2-3 weeks. Then again, you said that Pokebrid mating season tends to last 3 straight months.

Unless you intend for the pokebrids to be entering the mission while still feeling hot and bothered! That would be interesting in some regards! :3:

And I get the feeling that Laurith would be paired up with Aster because her muteness would be mostly negated if Aster had free reign to read her mind and act as her middle-man translator.

Astral Harmony

09-15-2010, 02:14 PM

Time frame? Perhaps a week. I think Dracorian probably wanted it to be kicked of that very night, but there could be a few days before he actually gets the information he needs. Judging from his PMs, his old buddies like to toy with him.

I didn't even mention them in the post, but Lucian and Discord will also be available (the Pokemon they lost will be replaced by something a little less legendary).

Menarker

09-15-2010, 02:20 PM

Ah, so the pokebrids are still going to be under the influence of lust during this mission (and perhaps the next one, the beach mission)

Including Matthias. ^,^

And Renny too since he's getting Pokebrid, unless you need to have been a pokebrid for a while before it takes effect or something like that.

Astral Harmony

09-15-2010, 02:44 PM

I'm not sure, yet. I need to think about it. Actually, yes. It's gonna be pretty weird...

Renny: "So, how did the operation go?"
Jeanette: "It was a complete success. How do you feel?"
Renny: "...Wanna fuck?"
Jeanette: "Yeah, I think you need to get back to your mission."
Renny: "Oh, right, the mission!"
Jeanette: "..."
Renny: "..."
Jeanette: "So..."
Renny: "Just a quickie, then?"
Jeanette: "Go away!"

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 03:43 PM

Time frame? Perhaps a week. I think Dracorian probably wanted it to be kicked of that very night, but there could be a few days before he actually gets the information he needs. Judging from his PMs, his old buddies like to toy with him.

Yeah, a week sounds about right. It's just about enough time for Pierce to deal with Tyranitar going through puberty.

You and me need to actually get together and write that shit up, huh?

... Or we could just procrastinate, that'd work too.

Yes, Pierce's old buddies are bastards.

Bard The 5th LW

09-15-2010, 04:56 PM

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 05:00 PM

Well, she seems to be handling it pretty well, you know.

Bard The 5th LW

09-15-2010, 05:04 PM

I don't think that really helps my view of it.

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 05:06 PM

How does "AB is a sick bastard" grab ya?

Bard The 5th LW

09-15-2010, 05:15 PM

Very much. Still bugs me.

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 05:35 PM

Come on, you know AB's going to say Mio's operation is irreversible.

As for recruiting her, some bullshit like "but she's really really mature!"

Bard The 5th LW

09-15-2010, 06:04 PM

Yeah I'm aware, but I just felt like I had, I don't know, say something about it. Make it feel like I tried.

edit: By the way, I totally call dibs on having Charlotte say "Why don't you take a seat? (http://candyglam.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/hansen2.jpg)" to Bretton.

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 08:15 PM

I call dibs on being the one that actually kills Moera.

Bard The 5th LW

09-15-2010, 09:16 PM

Charlotte will fight you.

Speaking of Moera, I had this thought. We have been abusing her pretty much more and more each mission. I envision that by the end, she will be so messed up that her head is completely wired to all sorts of machines and she can't really move from one spot.

That thought lead to this doodle in Muro.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/258/0/e/_____by_harlequincultist-d2yt7a6.png

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 09:18 PM

I have no idea what that is.

But I think it's more likely that Moera will just end up being one big blob of floating consciousness that's constantly a pain in our asses.

... Is that what's on that drawing?

Bard The 5th LW

09-15-2010, 09:26 PM

Sorta.

I see it as Moera's head stuck onto some machine with a bunch of wires jutting out or something. All sorts of sketchy lines of psychic vagueness are there to. Really, it isn't necessarily Moera, I just sort of doodled it with that concept in mind. Sort of reminds me of Giyaga from Earthbound.

Its whatever you interpret it as.

Geminex

09-15-2010, 09:31 PM

Huh, did you?

I did. Look it up.

And yeah, Renny getting some nice cash for providing detailed and potentially important information about a newly discovered pokemon doesn't really scream decadence all that much to me.
How did Renny provide this information, though? I mean, yeah. Mollesk belongs to him. He brought it in. But that's pretty much the extent of his contribution. He didn't really do any work.

Ricewood probably analyzed Mollesk and got a tons of data on it that could be used for scientific purposes
Huh. Really. "Tons of Data".
Yeah, gonna call bullshit on that one. Unless she dissected it, and analyzed the processes going on in its body, I don't think she could get anything useful from it.

An external examination might give her some info on how to best kill it, which would admittedly help law enforcement. But this pokemon's unique, so unless Renny's planning to go rogue, that wouldn't help.
And once again, I really don't think she can learn enough by studying it from the outside to gain much scientific knowlege. Certainly not make any new discoveries that could be integrated into Slayer weapons or accessories.

And even if Renny let her dissect it, I think what she could get would be very, very limited indeed. Biological knowlege is good for solving biological problems. Dissecting Mollesk would get Ricewood some very detailed anatomical knowlege. She'd understand what vulnerabilities to disease it has, how its metabolism works. She'd be able to cure one much more easily if it got sick, maybe gain some understanding about similar mechanisms present in other animals. But that's pretty much it. And I very much doubt she'd gain any information pertaining to other branches of science.

Certainly very few, if any, theoretical discoveries in physics or chemistry. I mean, maybe she'd discover a chemical process or two and then go "Huh. I didn't know this could happen", but that'd be pretty much it.

One point which I may have to concede is Bionics. That's the practice of looking to nature in order to find solutions to engineering problems. You want a really strong, yet elastic rope? Look towards spider silk, find a way to replicate it. Want better hydrodynamics for your ships? Penguins or Dolphins might be your salvation.

But see, I don't think it applies to pokemon. Because I'm pretty sure that whatever pokemon gain their power from, it ain't science. Mollesk's armor isn't as strong as it is because of its chemical makeup, and it isn't capable of exerting pretty huge physcial force because its tentacles are so well-muscled. I don't think any of the biological mechanisms Mollesk uses can be replicated by science, or would be of any help to engineers.

I'm not even arguing about the money here, mind you. Let Renny have his 100 000, make if 500 000 if you want to! Just sayin' that pokemon research has absolutely no scientific value, outside from better understanding pokemon.

I call dibs on being the one that actually kills Moera.
First come first served. :3:

Also, I assumed the whole "Using Mio" thing is just another way of showing the fact that PATCA, and Hommnyran society in general will embrace incredibly immoral actions if they are necessary in times of crisis.

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 09:57 PM

No fuck you I'm not going to muddle through that clusterfuck again just to see if Impact does or doesn't get to lead in the final mission.

I WILL say that I don't remember anything even remotely like that ever coming up.

How did Renny provide this information, though? I mean, yeah. Mollesk belongs to him. He brought it in. But that's pretty much the extent of his contribution. He didn't really do any work.

Yep.

He could've chosen not to bring it in, though. It would provide a tactical advantage if his one-of-a-kind pokemon wasn't plastered all over the newspapers for all the enemies to see, after all.

Yeah, let him keep his hundred thousand dollars.

Huh. Really. "Tons of Data".
Yeah, gonna call bullshit on that one. Unless she dissected it, and analyzed the processes going on in its body, I don't think she could get anything useful from it.

Oh come on man, this is fantasy, and this is Ricewood.

You think she wouldn't have some fancy scanner thing that she'd just zap over Mollesk and BING! Everything you ever wanted to know?

And once again, I really don't think she can learn enough by studying it from the outside to gain much scientific knowlege. Certainly not make any new discoveries that could be integrated into Slayer weapons or accessories.

You wouldn't know!

For all we know Mollesk's wine could have some very special properties (okay, so it doesn't do anything harmful because we drank it, but maybe it has a lot of vitamins or whatever).

Also, they could gain some insight into tougher armor by looking at Mollesk's shell.

But see, I don't think it applies to pokemon. Because I'm pretty sure that whatever pokemon gain their power from, it ain't science. Mollesk's armor isn't as strong as it is because of its chemical makeup, and it isn't capable of exerting pretty huge physcial force because its tentacles are so well-muscled. I don't think any of the biological mechanisms Mollesk uses can be replicated by science, or would be of any help to engineers.

Well, I also don't know where pokemon get their powers from that lets them execute moves.

BUT! If I understand correctly, some of their more innate abilities really are just biological processes. Like, Pikachu isn't an annoying walking battery because OMGMAGIC or whatever, it's biology lets it absorb and generate large amounts of electricity.

Plus, you say those biological mechanisms can't be replicated by science, and yet look at Slayer weapons and armor.

I'm not even arguing about the money here, mind you. Let Renny have his 100 000, make if 500 000 if you want to! Just sayin' that pokemon research has absolutely no scientific value, outside from better understanding pokemon.

That's a problem?

Pokemon are a huge part of the world, you know (and that's an understatement). They have a whole branch of science dedicated to them, probably.

And perhaps the Umbral world does place a little too much importance on them, but the fact is any contribution like discovering a whole new pokemon is going to have a huge impact.

And it's not like other brances of science are getting shafted either. Look at Ricewood, for Chrissakes! And apparently the world has airships, too. And probably all kinds of cool shit we don't know.

That said, I call dibs on having Pierce be the one to encourage humanity to actually perfect space travel and colonize other planets. Because then, with the overpopulation issue solved, he can bring in a bunch of Magatama, breed 'em, feed 'em to everyone and effectively rid humanity of Death.

Also, I assumed the whole "Using Mio" thing is just another way of showing the fact that PATCA, and Hommnyran society in general will embrace incredibly immoral actions if they are necessary in times of crisis.

AB doesn't think that deep.

Geminex

09-15-2010, 10:34 PM

BUT! If I understand correctly, some of their more innate abilities really are just biological processes. Like, Pikachu isn't an annoying walking battery because OMGMAGIC or whatever, it's biology lets it absorb and generate large amounts of electricity.
No, Just... no. Whatever pokemon do, it isn't science. Everything from the fact that they have to learn moves, to the fact that the have types at all, to the whole "weaknesses and resistances" thing, over stats, even on to pokeballs, that'd all be complete and utter bullshit.

Pikachu, for instance. First, it'd be an eating machine. Generating that much electricity takes one hell of a lot of energy, and that energy has to be metabolised. It'd eat more than a Snorlax, and I don't even think its digestive system could accommodate all of that. Secondly, the whole "shoot lightning" thing? Yeah, that doesn't actually work. If it eats enough and its metabolism can accommodate it, sure. It can generate charge within its body. But it can't control how this discharges. It'd have to find a way to modify its targets charge as well, and that's more-or-less impossible, by any standards. And even if that weren't the case, it would be dead. It channels lightning through its body regularly. Even if its organs don't get horribly damaged by that, whatever its nervous systems consist of, it'd be long-gone, unless it uses some kind of system that's purely chemical-based. In which case it'd take the thing at least 10-20 seconds to react to outside stimuli.
And that's just pikachu. Most of the pokemon mechanics (see all the stuff I mentioned above) suddenly stop making sense if you try to apply science to them, and that's not because I'm mis-applying science. Considering that humans on Hommnyr exist the same way we do here, we can be fairly sure that the same physical laws apply. And under those physical laws, pokemon are pretty much impossible.
So yeah, pokemon and science? No. Just... no.
Elemental spirits, fine.
Animals that have been modified by a godlike being to magically defy the laws of physics, fine. I like this one.
But real animals, that obey laws of nature? Fuck no. That shit... it doesn't even dream of flight, this time. It lives in a narrow, dark, dusty mineshaft, 2 miles underground, in which it can barely stand up as it mines for coal in return for some watery gruel every day. It has lived there all its life and even knowing what the sky looks like would kill it from the sheer beauty and freedom. It cannot even comprehend the concept of flight without going insane. Sometimes, it dreams of having enough room to stretch.

For all we know Mollesk's wine could have some very special properties (okay, so it doesn't do anything harmful because we drank it, but maybe it has a lot of vitamins or whatever).

Also, they could gain some insight into tougher armor by looking at Mollesk's shell.

Anyway, above rant, that's why I don't think either of those two work. What pokemon do isn't science, and can't be replicated by science. And even if it was, bionics is still limited. It takes a lot of research to find out exactly why a natural construct works the way it does, and even more to find a way to replicate this in the necessary situation.
Often, it's cheaper and quicker to just start from scratch. There's easier ways to find engineering solutions to problems than to tame and analyze the superpowered god-animals which walk among us.

Plus, you say those biological mechanisms can't be replicated by science, and yet look at Slayer weapons and armor.
That's science with the same function as pokemon stuff. It doesn't replicate pokemon stuff. The Flamethrower doesn't use the same mechanism that Charizard uses, I'd imagine.
I'd have to concede stuff like psychic and ghost rifles, but there's ways to justify those. The easiest way would be to assume that "psychic" power (in this case, I'd define it as "the ability of beings to influence reality through force of will") is in the realm of science, and goon from there.

Mind you, I'm not standing here and going "THIS RP MUST BE SCIENTIFICALLY LOGICAL AND REALISTIC". That's the last thing I'd do. I'm saying, however, that, in this RP, there are things that can be explained by science, however tenuously, and things that, quite simply, can't. The former should be said to remain within the realm of science, and said to be governed by the laws of science. It'd be a waste of time and effort, however, to attempt to justify the latter through science, which is why we should concede that it, in fact, is not science. Hand-wave it, save us all a lot of effort.

Edit: As for this:
And it's not like other branches of science are getting shafted either. Look at Ricewood, for Chrissakes! And apparently the world has airships, too. And probably all kinds of cool shit we don't know.
True. But I'm saying that research in other branches would be even more advanced if people weren't obsessed with pokemon.

That said, I call dibs on having Pierce be the one to encourage humanity to actually perfect space travel and colonize other planets. Because then, with the overpopulation issue solved, he can bring in a bunch of Magatama, breed 'em, feed 'em to everyone and effectively rid humanity of Death.
Wow. Ambitious, huh? Nice. Good luck with that. Though how're you gonna do it? I mean, it's not like Pierce is gonna be EMPEROR OF THE WORLD or anything. :3:
Seriously, leave the plans to save humanity to the guy who can actually implement them IC.

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 10:42 PM

Fair enough, I see your point.

We'd have a better time making sense of it if we knew how some of the Slayer weapons like the Dragon Slave worked.

But that's not going to happen.

As for Psychics, really? Whose force of will are you exerting when you blast the psychic rifle, then?

Also, Pierce has a hell of a lot of willpower (misused on stubborness, I guess you could say), yet you don't see him bending any spoons.

Edit: As for this:

True. But I'm saying that research in other branches would be even more advanced if people weren't obsessed with pokemon.

Not while pokemon are still incredibly useful to society on their own.

Society's become a little to dependent on them? Sure. But that does not mean pokemon should get shafted. Pokemon research 'n shit should get to see it's fair share of development. And by fair share I mean a lot.

Wow. Ambitious, huh? Nice. Good luck with that. Though how're you gonna do it? I mean, it's not like Pierce is gonna be EMPEROR OF THE WORLD or anything. :3:
Seriously, leave the plans to save humanity to the guy who can actually implement them IC.

Who needs to rule the world?

A) Elizabeth is rich, and B) what, the world is just going to say no to Immortality for free, even if you do have to go through a little bit of pain to get it?

Geminex

09-15-2010, 11:31 PM

As for Psychics, really? Whose force of will are you exerting when you blast the psychic rifle, then?
I'm going to tie this into quantum mechanics. One of the main stipulates thereof is that being observed changes the state of particles. A photon travelling through space is really just a cloud of probability, of potential photons. The photon doesn't actually have a position until it's observed.
But I'm sure you knew all that.
I'd assume that psychic power would simply involve using that effect on a far larger scale, along with changing the user's perception of that which is observed. Humans would be capable of the process to a small degree, the psychic rifle strongly replicates that process through technology, psychic pokemon replicate the process through the power that Exist gave them.

Not while pokemon are still incredibly useful to society on their own.
hahahahahaha OH WOW
Seriously. How're they useful. All they do is limit humanity's progress by making most, if not all, kinds of industry impossible.

Who needs to rule the world?

A) Elizabeth is rich, and B) what, the world is just going to say no to Immortality for free, even if you do have to go through a little bit of pain to get it?
Ok, are you seriously talking about Pierce starting a space program while rebelling against Impact? Seriously?
Also, I really don't think that "immortality for free" is practical. Or, y'know, that you've even come close to considering the conditions. I mean what's gonna happen, Pierce is going to get 6 billion magatama from the kimonos, give the entire world immortality and demonic powers and then everything will be perfect forever? It'd be fucking anarchy. Seriously, are you trying to make Pierce some sort of terrorist?

Menarker

09-15-2010, 11:36 PM

How did Renny provide this information, though? I mean, yeah. Mollesk belongs to him. He brought it in. But that's pretty much the extent of his contribution. He didn't really do any work.

Only thing I want to add is that Renny brought up the possibility that evolution stones could react in ways other than simple contact. (Mollesk came as a result of a Moon Stone being dissolved in strong acidic juices and consumed) This could mean a big difference to those focusing on the studies of evolution or the studies of the stones themselves (such as its possibilities for Evoliths). Mind you, it's entirely homebrewed stuff, but all the same it's not much stranger than some of the other bug pokemons which have weird evolutions like Shedninja.

Also, a lot of pokemons are hinted to have powers that aren't related to combat. Muk is famous for having such horrible sludge that any land it travels on becomes useless for agriculture. Snorlax on the other hand makes any land it walks on fertile for the sake of producing enough food to support its massive appetite. These researches may have more implications in society than what can be gleaned for combat specific moves and abilities. That's all roleplaying stuff though.

Dracorion

09-15-2010, 11:44 PM

hahahahahaha OH WOW
Seriously. How're they useful. All they do is limit humanity's progress by making most, if not all, kinds of industry impossible.

Electrode power for every city!

Obviously not all of them, but yeah a bunch of them.

And even if they didn't, pokemon can be used to protect humans from, y'know, wild pokemon. Because I'm sure Metal Hell and Miasma Mountain Range aren't there only places with pokemon that want to eat your intestines.

You could, of course, train everyone to defend themselves, but what are you going to do with the people that just can't, because they're too frail or whatever? "Sorry Timmy, you can't go out ever again because you can't lift a sword."

No, your best bet would be to drive all pokemon extinct, which is slightly impossible. I suppose you could close off every city forever, but then no one would ever be able to travel from city to city unless they're a grizzled warrior.

Ok, are you seriously talking about Pierce starting a space program while rebelling against Impact? Seriously?

Nah, he'd start a space program after Impact is defeated.

Also, I really don't think that "immortality for free" is practical. Or, y'know, that you've even come close to considering the conditions. I mean what's gonna happen, Pierce is going to get 6 billion magatama from the kimonos, give the entire world immortality and demonic powers and then everything will be perfect forever? It'd be fucking anarchy. Seriously, are you trying to make Pierce some sort of terrorist?

More like get a bunch, and then breed six billion from that bunch.

Also, I have no doubt that Impact's going to label Pierce a terrorist anyway.

So, let's see. Magatama give powers according to a person's personality or whatever, correct? So everyone would be special in their own way, which means no one would be special.

Hmmm, how is that different from how things are now? Oh right, people can't die from disease or old age.

EDIT: So, if Menarker's right, Muk are Weapons of Mass Destruction and Snorlax could single-handedly solve world hunger.

Geminex

09-15-2010, 11:44 PM

These researches may have more implications in society than what can be gleaned for combat specific moves and abilities.
Well, like I said: I'm saying that nothing can be gained from researching pokemon's attributes, because said attributes can't be scientifically replicated. This is because pokemon don't use science, they use whatever magic Exist gave them. They have to be, cause what they're doing sure ain't science. And for all intents and purposes, I really don't think science can replicate magic. Copy its effects, yes, but what works for pokemon won't work for humans.

It'd be pretty retarded if it did. Cause Exist specifically gave pokemon those powers because humans with their technology were screwing over nature. If humans were capable of copying those powers, all exist would have done was delay them for a few centuries, and in the process given them the means to advance technology far, far further than it would have gone had Exist not interfered. So yeah, it'd be pretty stupid.

Oh, and I just saw this:
No fuck you I'm not going to muddle through that clusterfuck again just to see if Impact does or doesn't get to lead in the final mission.

I WILL say that I don't remember anything even remotely like that ever coming up.
It was in the final fucking deal. If you make me look it up for you, that'll make another 2%.

Edit:
Only just realized that Drac actually posted before me.
Electrode power for every city!
If not for electrode, humans would have had to look for alternate sources. Wind, solar maybe, both of which would have created lots of jobs for electrical engineers, which then would have further benefited electronical development in general. Or even nuclear, which would've motivated research into theoretical physics, and could have been used for a huge variety of other tasks, from power spaceships, to powering airships.

As for the wild pokemon, fair enough. But that's pretty much the only way I can think of that they've benefited society, instead of held it back. And if the only way something benefits society is by killing other things, there has to be a way to replace it.

Nah, he'd start a space program after Impact is defeated.
Allright, how about "No". Just... "No".

So, let's see. Magatama give powers according to a person's personality or whatever, correct? So everyone would be special in their own way, which means no one would be special.
Yes, only at the moment people's "special"-ness stems from their mental ability, their physical ability and their personality. Add "supernatural powers" to that equation and you've got one hell of a clustfuck. Seriously, even if everyone has them, it'd be horrible.

Menarker

09-15-2010, 11:57 PM

Gem, is there any particular reason why you're so upset about the mission ending aside from what you said before?

Because if you recall, MY SIDEQUEST was ended prematurely just as I revealed Mollesk and was going to fight using him, when the battle was still uncertain who was going to win or lose. His debut battle was ended before he could use a single attack! Talk about tragic timing. >_< And while it was disappointing, I certainly didn't raise a huge fuss all about it. Not just any ordinary mission. MY CHARACTER SPECIFIC SIDEQUEST. And that one didn't even last as long as this current one.

I don't mind you getting to issue orders some time in the future, but I do think you're being more upset about it than the situation really calls for, when taking in consideration that my situation was comparably worse.

Geminex

09-16-2010, 12:05 AM

Gem, is there any particular reason why you're so upset about the mission ending aside from what you said before?
Not really. I wanted to have Impact give more orders, I didn't get to, plus the plan that I thought up was pretty much hand-waved. This annoyed me.

And I do think out situations are different. None of us called for your sidequest to end prematurely, AB did that himself. If you had wanted it to go on for longer, you could have, should have, said, and I probably would even have supported you.

And if AB had decided to end this one early by himself, I probably wouldn't have put up too much of a protest either.

But see, you were directly responsible for it ending early. You asked him to repeatedly, despite my protest. I didn't really get much of a chance to object (the one objection I did make was ignored), so I do feel quite screwed over. And I did lose out on at least three or four turns' worth of orders through your direct action. So yeah, I feel compensation is appropriate.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 12:09 AM

Well, like I said: I'm saying that nothing can be gained from researching pokemon's attributes, because said attributes can't be scientifically replicated.

Still useful. Because, you know, you might just find out a use for Snorlax's fertility aura that no one's ever thought of before.

Like it can cure cancer or something.

Oh, and I just saw this:

It was in the final fucking deal. If you make me look it up for you, that'll make another 2%.

Eh, I'll get around to it sometime when it's not the middle of the night.

Edit:
Only just realized that Drac actually posted before me.

If not for electrode, humans would have had to look for alternate sources. Wind, solar maybe, both of which would have created lots of jobs for electrical engineers, which then would have further benefited electronical development in general. Or even nuclear, which would've motivated research into theoretical physics, and could have been used for a huge variety of other tasks, from power spaceships, to powering airships.

Except, y'know, nuclear is dangerous.

Also, I'm fairly certain those jobs are replaced by some other profession in the pokemon world.

As for the wild pokemon, fair enough. But that's pretty much the only way I can think of that they've benefited society, instead of held it back. And if the only way something benefits society is by killing other things, there has to be a way to replace it.

No one ever said killing! Whatever happened to just "fainting"?

Allright, how about "No". Just... "No".

Also, he probably wouldn't start his own space program.

Probably just back up one or some or all of the existing ones.

Yes, only at the moment people's "special"-ness stems from their mental ability, their physical ability and their personality. Add "supernatural powers" to that equation and you've got one hell of a clustfuck. Seriously, even if everyone has them, it'd be horrible.

Actually, aside from the occassional blasts of demonic power and elemental manipulation and shit, most Magatama powers would fall under mental and physical abilities, wouldn't they?

And everyone would probably have the increased toughness and regenerative abilities.

Geminex

09-16-2010, 12:26 AM

Actually, aside from the occassional blasts of demonic power and elemental manipulation and shit, most Magatama powers would fall under mental and physical abilities, wouldn't they?

And everyone would probably have the increased toughness and regenerative abilities.
Well, currently "Mental abilities" is "different people are better at thinking about and understanding different things, but mostly everyone's equal". With Magatama "mental abilities" would be "different people are massively, supernaturally skilled at different mental activities". And the same for physical, currently the difference in ability is token at most. If magatama come it, it could become massive.
People would just specialize and differentiate one hell of a lot more. Everyone's skills would be more or less unique. Everyone would be objectively special. And I'm thinking that kind of society would result in a lot of "people using their special talent in a way that screws up other people who can't really defend against it because they never considered that it was possible and were too busy screwing other people over with their special talent".
Not to mention that the people who, for some strange reason don't want immortality, would be utterly screwed.
Also, he probably wouldn't start his own space program.

Probably just back up one or some or all of the existing ones.
Ooooh, I see. That's perfectly allright then.

No one ever said killing! Whatever happened to just "fainting"?
Fair enough. Still, gotta be a better way.

Except, y'know, nuclear is dangerous.
And electrode, which are notorious for exploding without warning, aren't? At least with nuclear fusion you can control it.

Also, I'm fairly certain those jobs are replaced by some other profession in the pokemon world.
Huh. What d'you mean?

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 12:36 AM

Well, currently "Mental abilities" is "different people are better at thinking about and understanding different things, but mostly everyone's equal". With Magatama "mental abilities" would be "different people are massively, supernaturally skilled at different mental activities". And the same for physical, currently the difference in ability is token at most. If magatama come it, it could become massive.
People would just specialize and differentiate one hell of a lot more. Everyone's skills would be more or less unique. Everyone would be objectively special. And I'm thinking that kind of society would result in a lot of "people using their special talent in a way that screws up other people who can't really defend against it because they never considered that it was possible and were too busy screwing other people over with their special talent".
Not to mention that the people who, for some strange reason don't want immortality, would be utterly screwed.

... Why the hell wouldn't they want immortality?

Even if they didn't, immortality is just a convenient word. Fact is, Magatamas don't grant immortality. They just grant eternal youth.

Half-demons can still die from, y'know, being beheaded or whatever. So if someone didn't want to live forever, they could just kill themselves when they got bored. Admittedly, suicide would be a lot harder for Half-demons.

Maybe we could set up Euthanasia centers or something.

Also, this:

And I'm thinking that kind of society would result in a lot of "people using their special talent in a way that screws up other people who can't really defend against it because they never considered that it was possible and were too busy screwing other people over with their special talent".

... How is that any different from what goes on now?

Also, like I said, Magatama powers mold themselves to the person. People can't actually pick the powers they want.

So while, yes, there would be cases where someone gets a power that screws up other people, they would be few.

Ooooh, I see. That's perfectly allright then.

Hey! Sarcasm is my shindig! Getchurown.

Fair enough. Still, gotta be a better way.

Well, I'll start brainstorming. You tell me when you come up with something better.

... How about spraying a mind-control powder that only works on pokemon all over the world?

And electrode, which are notorious for exploding without warning, aren't? At least with nuclear fusion you can control it.

Electrode was just a random electric pokemon I picked.

Admittedly, it was a bad choice.

Huh. What d'you mean?

Sure, you get less electrical engineers, but you get more Nurse Joys, Pokemon Professors, Contest Judges and whatnot.

Menarker

09-16-2010, 12:46 AM

Sure, you get less electrical engineers, but you get more Nurse Joys, Pokemon Professors, Contest Judges and whatnot.

>_> I'm pretty certain that if Team Rocket can use teleporters in their hide-outs ingames, or everyday trainers with connections to a pokemon professer to teleport pokemons past the 6th pokemon they capture to a PC (AND STORE ITEMS IN SAID PCs IN A MANNER SIMILAR TO HYPER-DIMENSIONAL SPACE), that engineers are not as rare or unvalued as you guys make them think they are.

Yes, pokemon specific professions exist. But professions that don't focus on pokemons still exist and could even benefit from pokemons. Fire types, steel, fighting, ground/rock and other types for mining. Water for fishing or underwater exploration or mobile fire-fighting. Hell, Alakazam could be used in a library or any place where the impossible IQ of 5000 can be used. (Ignoring the fact that IQ is not a measure of intelligence but the ratio of your intellect when compared to the age of your peers) Technology still has room to grow, but having intelligent creatures that can use their brand of magic can help professions out in a variety of ways.

Geminex

09-16-2010, 12:51 AM

... How is that any different from what goes on now?
Well, at the moment, people are still... similar. For all their uniqueness, the means at their disposal are still more or less the same. The way they'd use to harm someone else will be the same way someone else will harm them. They can... expect it. Sure, technology and an increasingly complex society cause quite a bit of deviation. But ultimately, people are still similar enough that it's more or less of a fair fight. They can defend themselves.

With demonic powers on the other hand... There'd be so much variety. So many different powers, so many abilities that others simply can't comprehend, that nobody than the guy using them would expect! It'd be difficult to defend yourself against someone whose power you didn't even know existed until he turned it on you.

So if someone didn't want to live forever, they could just kill themselves when they got bored.
Look, are you sure Impact is gonna be the bad guy? Cause man, you have potential!

Well, I'll start brainstorming. You tell me when you come up with something better.
Find a way to live in peace with the wild ones. They aren't mindless killing machines, and they're mildly intelligent. It should be possible to communicate with them. And if you can communicate, you can make deals. Even if these deals involve the threat of force.

Sure, you get less electrical engineers, but you get more Nurse Joys, Pokemon Professors, Contest Judges and whatnot.
True, but what do they do? They don't participate in any useful research. They aren't very productive. The Professor and the Nurse might help us interact with pokemon a little better. But I think the potential of pokemon is nothing compared to the potential that technology has.

Edit: And that's pretty much my response to Menarker's post as well. Technology has no limits. Replacing it with something that has limitations (which pokemon do) will only harm you in the long run. And sure, engineers aren't rare, or undervalued. Hommnyran society has progressed. But I'm saying it would have progressed one hell of a lot more if not for all those pokemon everyone's using.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 12:53 AM

I believe Geminex's point is that an electrical engineer wouldn't need to develop better and more ingenious ways to provide electricity because pokemon are already there.

And any insight that could be gained into other fields from those potential developments also wouldn't happen.

>_> I'm pretty certain that if Team Rocket can use teleporters in their hide-outs ingames, or everyday trainers with connections to a pokemon professer to teleport pokemons past the 6th pokemon they capture to a PC (AND STORE ITEMS IN SAID PCs IN A MANNER SIMILAR TO HYPER-DIMENSIONAL SPACE), that engineers are not as rare or unvalued as you guys make them think they are.

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told AB about pokeballs:

Shrinking ray.

As for teleporters? Yeah, that's worth exploring further. Though who's to say it isn't being done already?

Same with space travel, really.

With demonic powers on the other hand... There'd be so much variety. So many different powers, so many abilities that others simply can't comprehend, that nobody than the guy using them would expect! It'd be difficult to defend yourself against someone whose power you didn't even know existed until he turned it on you.

I'm fairly certain most of the powers would be generic and unvaried.

Except, like, I said, for the occassional wild card that gets bitchin' powers for plot purposes.

Look, are you sure Impact is gonna be the bad guy? Cause man, you have potential!

Well, obviously I do.

Anyway, come on. You see it all the time. Sometimes when people reach a certain age they're perfectly comfortable with dying. That's just a fact.

The difference is that if they're half-demon they have to kill themselves instead of just lying down and waiting. And the people who want to die are more than capable of killing themselves one way or another.

Find a way to live in peace with the wild ones. They aren't mindless killing machines, and they're mildly intelligent. It should be possible to communicate with them. And if you can communicate, you can make deals. Even if these deals involve the threat of force.

You're gonna make a deal with every single pokemon herd in the world?

Also, some of these fuckers are proud. You can threaten them with force all you like, but they're going to fight tooth and nail until you wipe them out. Which kinda is against the whole point, don't you think?

And when I say "some" I mean "a lot".

And before you know it, you're like the europeans wiping out the indians.

True, but what do they do? They don't participate in any useful research. They aren't very productive. The Professor and the Nurse might help us interact with pokemon a little better. But I think the potential of pokemon is nothing compared to the potential that technology has.

Edit: And that's pretty much my response to Menarker's post as well. Technology has no limits. Replacing it with something that has limitations (which pokemon do) will only harm you in the long run. And sure, engineers aren't rare, or undervalued. Hommnyran society has progressed. But I'm saying it would have progressed one hell of a lot more if not for all those pokemon everyone's using.

Okay man, technology does have a limit.

That's what physical laws do. They're fuckers like that.

Sure, technology can certainly reach farther than pokemon. BUT, unbridled technological advancement? That can get pretty messy.

I mean, it starts out innocent. One cure for cancer here and one anti-AIDS pill there, and before you know it the future is fucked up because someone went and made a bomb that can eat an entire country.

And with Honmyr? That for all it's technological advancement is incredibly fucked up (and I'm sure one could make the argument that it's because of the technological advancement that it's fucked up)? That's what would happen.

Geminex

09-16-2010, 01:18 AM

You're gonna make a deal with every single pokemon herd in the world?
We'll see how it all plays out. But there's better ways to protect yourselves from wild pokemon than devoting the resources of your society to training them.

I mean, it starts out innocent. One cure for cancer here and one anti-AIDS pill there, and before you know it the future is fucked up because someone went and made a bomb that can eat an entire country.
Hah. True, with greater technology come increasingly more terrible ways to kill other people. But I'm thinking that the harm caused by technological progress very rarely outweighs the benefits.
Besides, d'you really think Impact's gonna authorize the creation of some sort of super-bomb?

I believe Geminex's point is that an electrical engineer wouldn't need to develop better and more ingenious ways to provide electricity because pokemon are already there.

And any insight that could be gained into other fields from those potential developments also wouldn't happen.
That's pretty much what I meant.

I'm fairly certain most of the powers would be generic and unvaried.

Except, like, I said, for the occassional wild card that gets bitchin' powers for plot purposes.
If the power you get depends on personality, then everyone would be getting something different, I'd imagine.

Anyway, come on. You see it all the time. Sometimes when people reach a certain age they're perfectly comfortable with dying. That's just a fact.
There's a difference between "being ok with dying if it's inevitable" and "knowing that you don't have to die but consciously deciding to". Seriously. One hell of a difference.
In fact, this part of the discussion is over. We're on ethically shaky ground already and who knows where we'll arrive if this keeps going.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 01:27 AM

We'll see how it all plays out. But there's better ways to protect yourselves from wild pokemon than devoting the resources of your society to training them.

Not much.

Seriously, just one pokeball. Well, maybe more depending on the catch rate. Are you sure you weakened it right?

Maybe try putting it to sleep.

Hah. True, with greater technology come increasingly more terrible ways to kill other people. But I'm thinking that the harm caused by technological progress very rarely outweighs the benefits.
Besides, d'you really think Impact's gonna authorize the creation of some sort of super-bomb?

...
Apparently I was the only person in this discussion THAT WAS NOT ASSUMING THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IMPACT-LAND'S FUTURE.

No seriously fuck you.

Especially when I said that Pierce would only get started on it after Impact was dethroned.

If the power you get depends on personality, then everyone would be getting something different, I'd imagine.

Do you wanna be the one to make up individual powers for 6 billion NPCs?

I'm fairly certain Magatamas have a limited pool to give powers from.

More specifically, you won't see anyone time travelling to six seconds ago just to kick you in the balls.

Also, people aren't that different. Well, they are, but they're also very much alike. So while most people would get a different combination of powers, you'd pretty much have a bunch of people running around with super strength, super speed, breathing fire and so on.

There's a difference between "being ok with dying if it's inevitable" and "knowing that you don't have to die but consciously deciding to". Seriously. One hell of a difference.
In fact, this part of the discussion is over. We're on ethically shaky ground already and who knows where we'll arrive if this keeps going.

SHUT UP FUCK YOU I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE A STINKY DOODYFACE.

Geminex

09-16-2010, 01:37 AM

Especially when I said that Pierce would only get started on it after Impact was dethroned.
...
What?
We're talking about how pokemon are slowing down society's technological progress. That is all. I was making a point that the harm done by technology can be regulated by responsible government authority. Your fantasy space program is really not of relevance here. Or, for that matter, ever. Cause you seem remarkably sure about the whole "Impact is going to get dethroned" thing.

Do you wanna be the one to make up individual powers for 6 billion NPCs?
You're the one who want 6 billion demons on earth.
And ok, it might work. But, like I said, doubt that it would work, or be ethical.

Seriously, just one pokeball. Well, maybe more depending on the catch rate. Are you sure you weakened it right?

Maybe try putting it to sleep.
Watch and learn motherfucker.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 01:51 AM

...
What?
We're talking about how pokemon are slowing down society's technological progress. That is all. I was making a point that the harm done by technology can be regulated by responsible government authority. Your fantasy space program is really not of relevance here. Or, for that matter, ever. Cause you seem remarkably sure about the whole "Impact is going to get dethroned" thing.

Oh right.

I need to sleep.

But, aside from the last line, the rest applies. We weren't talking about how pokemon are slowing down society's technological process and how Impact's utopia is going to fix it.

Also, you seem pretty sure about the whole "Impact isn't going to get dethroned thing".

Anyway, don't factor in Impactania while we're discussing this, please.

You're the one who want 6 billion demons on earth.
And ok, it might work. But, like I said, doubt that it would work, or be ethical.

What, giving everyone eternal youth? The fact that it's going to hurt at first?

Really, the only part that strikes me as not ethical is the one where people who want to die have to kill themselves.

I know that getting people to do it isn't going to be easy. You're asking them to chow down creepy scorpion things, and worse, you've got all the negative connotations of the word "demon".

Gonna take one hell of a PR campaign.

Watch and learn motherfucker.

Why don't you tell me?

So anyway, I went back through the threads, right? I found this (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1065363&postcount=73) post of yours. So you're right that you did say you could negotiate Impact leading during the final mission.

In my defense, it was one stupid line in a big paragraph. That entire point should've gotten it's own paragraph anyway.

Though I'm paranoid enough to suspect that you did it that way on purpose.

Anyway, how is it thematic or plot-important for Impact to lead for the final mission?

Especially since then, Charlotte would presumably have established herself quite comfortably as team leader.

Geminex

09-16-2010, 02:02 AM

True, that. But come on, this is a fairly major deal you're agreeing to, you didn't double-check it? And I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first time I mentioned it...

Anyway, how is it thematic or plot-important for Impact to lead for the final mission?
You might find out another time.

Why don't you tell me?
I don't know yet. But considering what Impact will be facing, wild pokemon are a very minor problem, at most.

Also, you seem pretty sure about the whole "Impact isn't going to get dethroned thing".
I do, don't I?

Anyway, don't factor in Impactania while we're discussing this, please.
Like I said, I was making a point: Technology's unethical application can be limited through competent government, and even if it isn't, it'll do more good than harm.

Edit: You need sleep, I have other stuff to do. Let's end this here.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 10:20 AM

Wild pokemon are just going to end up being Impact's herpes, at most.

Also, there are some who would argue that Impactania wouldn't be all that competent.

Geminex

09-16-2010, 10:24 AM

Wild pokemon are just going to end up being Impact's herpes, at most.
Nah. Maybe a mild allergy.

How could it not? I have plans for it.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 10:26 AM

Really?

I was under the impression that you were still trying to figure something out.

Did you take my mass mind-control suggestion?

Doesn't have to be all that extreme. Just a little something to make all pokemon more docile.

Geminex

09-16-2010, 08:06 PM

Nah, not plans for the pokemon. I'll see how everything plays out before I decide how to neutralize/use them. What I meant was plans for Impactania. To make, if nothing else, its government body extremely competent.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 08:13 PM

Well, have fun with that.

Astral Harmony

09-16-2010, 09:04 PM

So are wwe just going to like, leave Mio the way Faynoc left her?

Like, wasn't she really 10 years old? Are we just going to leave her looking aged up and recruit her into a law enforcement agency to further worsen the mental scars?

Mio's unbelieveably in control of her own emotions, especially for a girl her age. Her devotion to her mother Sakuya and Sakuya's grand schemes far surpasses the devotion held by the Harbingers of Ascension for Faynoc. Mio has quite possibly never thought for or of herself over the course of her entire life. She literally let her body be used and abused by Faynoc all so that she can achieve great power, all for the sake of her mother's personal vendettas against people like Burkmont, Irene, and the Honmyran President. Don't pity her, though. She isn't asking for any.

I'm not even arguing about the money here, mind you. Let Renny have his 100 000, make if 500 000 if you want to! Just sayin' that pokemon research has absolutely no scientific value, outside from better understanding pokemon.

Try to remember that, in the Pokemon World known in the games and anime, that "Pokemon Professors" are the only scientists that the characters of that world seem to talk about.

Granted, this is Pokemon Umbral, so there's a lot of other different sciences involved. Still, a lot of it links to Pokemon, so research into new types is still extremely valuable. Who knows? One day, Ricewood runs some painless tests on Renny's Mollesk. The next week, there's a Mollesk Pokebrid dining at a Quiznos.

And let's not forget that Pokemon, particularly wild ones, have almost always used their powers for the sake of combat. Utilizing them to other purposes, such as having a Pikachu charge a car battery or some shit, requires an entirely different kind of training. If a Pikachu is insufficient, you have to level it up, or just put more Pikachu on the job. But that's not all of it. You could never get me to believe that a Pokemon like Pikachu can maintain a constant voltage and current at all times until it can no longer maintain it because it's out of PPs. Using Pokemon for these purposes is all well and good, but humans have to be on top of their game as well to actually make it work.

The only Electric type I might actually trust to function as a stable electricity source would be Magnemite and its evolutions because they are manmade Pokemon to begin with. Other Electric types should be carefully monitored as they work and special devices should be employed to make sure that excess voltage and current is grounded. Pokemon are an invaluable source of utility, but I like to think of them as alien technology left behind when the aliens died out or ascended beyond the world or whatever. We discovered them. We know they can be used. We just need to do a lot of shit on our own to make them useful. Sometimes, it's even just more cost effective to not utilize Pokemon at all for various tasks.

I'm just going to say that all this stuff, we're simply labeling as "super science". It's entirely fictional and impossible just like Geminex says.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 09:17 PM

Mio's unbelieveably in control of her own emotions, especially for a girl her age. Her devotion to her mother Sakuya and Sakuya's grand schemes far surpasses the devotion held by the Harbingers of Ascension for Faynoc. Mio has quite possibly never thought for or of herself over the course of her entire life. She literally let her body be used and abused by Faynoc all so that she can achieve great power, all for the sake of her mother's personal vendettas against people like Burkmont, Irene, and the Honmyran President. Don't pity her, though. She isn't asking for any.

I'm going to pity her anyway.

I'm pretty sure total and complete devotion to someone else without anything for yourself is the exact opposite of "in control".

Astral Harmony

09-16-2010, 09:21 PM

Well, I suppose you could. But be careful. God forbid she actually falls in love with you for caring about her, and then even I would have to continue the plot like that because it's too effin' hilarious to stop it.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 09:27 PM

...

And now I have to do it.

Shiiiiiiit.

Menarker

09-16-2010, 09:41 PM

I thought Pierce wasn't going to target 10 year olds? Even ones that look adult. :3 Then again, I could say the same for Bretton flirting with her.

Anyhow, going to work on making a post soonish.

Bard The 5th LW

09-16-2010, 10:03 PM

Remember, Charlotte is going to be the Chris Hanson here.

Don't take that rite away from me. I called dibs.

Dracorion

09-16-2010, 10:09 PM

Hey, you want Charlotte to make a move on the ten-year-old mutant?

Please, go ahead.

Menarker

09-16-2010, 11:20 PM

AB, I don't mean to be a nit-picker, but doesn't Whitney have anything to say about us retrieving Muon? I mean, she's one of her best buddies and we did succeed in saving her. ^^; After all that pleading for us to try to search and rescue her prior to the start of the mission, I would have expected some sort of reunion, perhaps even a "thank you" to the group. =P

Astral Harmony

09-17-2010, 01:25 AM

In due time, ya wacky yank.

Geminex

09-17-2010, 02:52 AM

Edit at the top, because otherwise people won't see this:
Is there anything we should be doing? Will inter-character relationshipping take place at the beginning of next mission, or should we do that now? Cause Impact and Charlotte need to converse, and probably Impact and Renny as well.

------
Initial message below:

Pokemon are an invaluable source of utility, but I like to think of them as alien technology left behind when the aliens died out or ascended beyond the world or whatever. We discovered them. We know they can be used. We just need to do a lot of shit on our own to make them useful. Sometimes, it's even just more cost effective to not utilize Pokemon at all for various tasks.

Eh. I'm pretty sure that if not for pokemon, people would have already discovered technologies that make pokemon obsolete. I've outlined why that is above, but it's fairly simple in that:

Existence of pokemon provides solutions to a large variety of "technical" problems like how to generate energy (electric pokemon), how to do heavy lifting (fighting-type pokemon), how to travel (bird pokemon with fly) etc...
Since all these "basic" problems already have solutions, there's no need to develop technical solutions. You don't need to come up with generators, or hydraulics, or cars and airplanes. There's no demand for that kind of stuff, or for the people that're good at that kind of stuff.

Sure, that might not be a bad thing immediately. After all, who cares if we don't have airplanes? We have bird pokemon, we don't need them!
Yeah.

Thing is, pokemon are fairly limited. However well you train them or use them or equip them, using pokemon is only gonna get you so far. Sure, you can use bird pokemon to travel. But your can't deploy unmanned bird pokemon, or employ them to transport freight, or go faster than the speed of sound with them. You really never will.

Whereas with technology, after a few years, maybe a century or two, you could. Easily! But see, those high-tech aircraft are never gonna be developed. Because there won't be any basic aircraft, because there won't be any engineers, because nobody will bother studying thermodynamics, because it'll seem irrelevant. Nobody will realize the potential of technology, nobody will realize that, if they just built that basic airplane, they could improve it, and improve it some more. Nobody will understand, or bother. Because, hey, we have bird pokemon. Who wants a Wright-Brothers era airplane if you have bird pokemon?

And it's even worse, because technology is interlinked. Even if there's a "basic" task that can't be solved through liberal application of pokemon, and people start looking for a technical solution, without progress in other branches of technology, that'd be incredibly difficult! Because you'd barely have a basis on which to build your development! You'd have to do all the theoretical reasearch yourself, all of the practical research, design your own equipment, make your own tools. So much effort! And since technology doesn't really seem integral to society, there won't be any technology-oriented mindset, there won't be anyone planning to do this. Not to mention that there won't be much of an eduction system. People leave school at 10 to train pokemon. If they're lucky, they'll have learned about linear functions and the law of gravity by then. People will know nothing!

...

Over-eloquent? Maybe. But I'm trying really hard to make this point, because it's the primary reason why Hommnyr under Impact is gonna be superior to every other country on earth: Because he prefers to rely on technology over pokemon. And technology is so very much superior to pokemon if you give it a decade or two.

And I know there's been technological progress in Hommnyr. But imagine how advanced they'd be if they'd never even heard of pokemon!

Anyway, TL;DR: The existence of pokemon will hold technological progress in a society back really badly. It'll discourage any form of science that's not pokemon-related, and, in the process, screw the economy, standard of living and standards of eductation in a country over as well. This is why Impactania will be superior to every other country on earth.

And now I think I've said enough about this. Seriously, this is the third rant I've written in this vein.
Not that that's anyone's fault but my own. Still, if you want clarification, look up all the other stuff I've written.

Dracorion

09-17-2010, 10:02 AM

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are airplanes in the pokemon world.

Or there should be, it's just none of the creators thought about putting them in because of the whole "ten-year-old travelling the world" gig.

But yeah, you know how there are ships in the anime and games, even though there's water pokemon?

Same for airplanes.

Also, I'm pretty sure that, while fighting-types do some of the heavy lifting pretty well, they can't compete with, y'know, A CRANE. Basically, fighting-types are not Superman.

On Electric-types. Like AB said, the only pokemon that could power a generator indefinitely would be Magnemite and it's evolutions. BUT, every single city and town in the freakin' world isn't going to have a big-assed Magnemite generator.

So they'd have regular man-made generators.

Also, there's been no indication that it's a common practice for people to leave school at ten-years-old to train pokemon. I mean, there are schools in the games and anime, with ten-year-old kids in them and shit. Granted, they're school for pokemon.

Even so, I'm fairly certain there'd be a LOT more trainers to fight in the games and anime if every kid started at ten-years-old.

Also, while Renny is young, he certainly isn't ten. I don't think in the Umbral world kids start messing around at ten-years-old. Or at least, not in Honmyr where going outside could get you eaten.

EDIT: Also, Menarker's post seems to imply that Renny may be quitting PATCA. While we all know that's not going to happen, I can't help but imagine if it were true.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCKKKKKKK YEEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!

Menarker

09-17-2010, 10:19 AM

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are airplanes in the pokemon world.

I'm pretty sure there are airplanes... since you know...

LOPUNNISH SHOT ONE DOWN IN OUR FIGHT WITH THE POKEGEDDON WITH ONE BULLET! ONE THAT WAS IMPROVISED AS AN ATTACK!

Also, Renny was pondering quitting eventually ever since his side-quest. The motivation was different and not as urgent but it was on his mind then, but it was there.

If we want another question about society and pokemon... Ask how trainers who don't have a stable job get money for living aside from mooching off their parents? Aside from the fact that trainers seem to GET money from defeating trainers. (In-game at least) So only the good trainers can support themselves long enough to travel far from their hometown, especially when it comes to feeding their pokemons and themselves and all that. At least they have free medicare via pokemon centers.

Dracorion

09-17-2010, 10:23 AM

Lopunnish shot down an airship.

Totally different.

Geminex

09-17-2010, 11:43 AM

In regards to Drac's thing:

Well, see, the fact that they eventually managed to develop high-tech doesn't mean that they aren't still being held back by pokemon. I'm guessing a lot of the stuff they have was developed before pokeballs came into use. And like I said, if they're already on a fairly high technological level, imagine what they'd be at without the detrimental influence of pokemon.

And yeah, fighting types can't lift as much as cranes. But they're perfect for "personal" lifting, the sort of stuff you'd need equipment like forklifts for. Or exosuits. The existence of fighting-type pokemon greatly slows the development of personal, strength-amplifying, everyday exosuits. There can be no greater crime.

Water pokemon for personal transport is probably screwing over the advancement of fast, personal naval travel. There's a ton of stuff that can be done with hydrodynamics to make boats really fucking fast, but it takes a while to develop. If people are preferring to hop on pokemon, there's no need for a passenger boat that travels fast (cause pokemon will travel faster, to begin with), and, as such, you're never gonna be developing ships that go just a hair under the speed of sound, cause the prerequisites just aren't there.

Generators... fair enough, pokemon aren't that useful in that area, so they're not holding humanity back too badly. But still, no magnezone would mean better generators in general. Not to mention that pokemon everywhere else means that there really isn't very much of a knowlege base, or engineers, or manufacturing techniques, or materials. If you want generators, you're gonna have to take care of all of that yourself.

More simply, it's pretty much like a tech tree in a strategy game. You need to research basic stuff to get the more advanced stuff. And you need the advanced stuff to get the uber-advanced stuff. And so on.

Pokemon offer free replacements to pretty much all of the basic techs, and quite a few of the advanced ones as well. Free replacements, in that you don't have to research the originals. But if you don't research the originals, you don't have the prerequisites for the advanced tech. And you don't even know that the advanced stuff exists, so why should you research the basic shit? You've got what you need after all. Right. RIGHT?

The only ones who'll try to get the normal tech are the ones who, for some reason, dislike pokemon. The ones who're irrational, and don't use the free replacements that everyone else does.
The Ones... The Ones that are like Impact. The biased, bigoted ones. The ones with irrational hatred, who take the hard path just because they hate the easy path for some reason.
In a stagnating, decadent pokemon world, it won't be the trainers who bring progress. Won't be the Jennys who advance society. Won't be the Joys who heal the world.
It'll be the Impacts. The ones who took the hard way...
That turned out to have been the only right way all along.
They are the Heroes, my friends. They are the champions of humanity, the ones who will pioneer the mysteries of the world, the universe, of nature. They are the Bringers of Light to society's Darkness.
And they are shunned. They are hated for their hatred. They die far, far too often.
But they persevere. And they survive. They succeed. They save the world, save humanity a thousand times over, throughout the decades, the centuries.
They are the Heroes.
And I think we owe them some acknowledgment.
They saved our pokemon world as it burnt them like witches for it.
And I think to truly honor that, we should consciously realize. That they succeeded. That we owe them. That They were right.
And that we should ALL try to be like Impact.
And if you refuse, then...
Well...
Then that's the question, isn't it? Which ones are the true Heroes? And which... are the Villains?

...

There that's my bullshit quota for the day!
I might actually have Impact use that speech sometime, slightly modified.

Edit:
Menarker, why'd Renny quit PATCA? Your post made some hints, of course. You gonna reveal any more?

Dracorion

09-17-2010, 12:07 PM

Well, see, the fact that they eventually managed to develop high-tech doesn't mean that they aren't still being held back by pokemon. I'm guessing a lot of the stuff they have was developed before pokeballs came into use. And like I said, if they're already on a fairly high technological level, imagine what they'd be at without the detrimental influence of pokemon.

Actually, AB said pokeballs were used in some shape or form sixteen-hundred years ago.

But I know what you're going to say now.

And yeah, fighting types can't lift as much as cranes. But they're perfect for "personal" lifting, the sort of stuff you'd need equipment like forklifts for. Or exosuits. The existence of fighting-type pokemon greatly slows the development of personal, strength-amplifying, everyday exosuits. There can be no greater crime.

I'm sorry, have you looked at the RPDAs?

Sure, they're a relatively new invention. BUT, even if pokemon weren't around people wouldn't have built RPDAs just so they could make a building.

Fact is, they would've made exosuits for military use first, then adapted them to everyday use. And the Umbral world, pokemon or no pokemon, isn't quite advanced enough for widespread use of exosuits.

And if they were, it would just be that whole "unbridled scientific advancement" I talked about before. And even if you say that Impact wouldn't let that happen, the fact is that it would happen before Ray Green was even born. And he wouldn't be able to stop it after it's already in use.

Water pokemon for personal transport is probably screwing over the advancement of fast, personal naval travel. There's a ton of stuff that can be done with hydrodynamics to make boats really fucking fast, but it takes a while to develop. If people are preferring to hop on pokemon, there's no need for a passenger boat that travels fast (cause pokemon will travel faster, to begin with), and, as such, you're never gonna be developing ships that go just a hair under the speed of sound, cause the prerequisites just aren't there.

Actually, I'm fairly certain most water pokemon that can be used for sea travel (the ones big enough to carry a human) can't travel faster than a cruise ship.

So there'd still be need for ships that go fast.

Also, it'd be slightly inhumane to subject a pokemon to a long-assed trip across open sea without any land to be seen.

Generators... fair enough, pokemon aren't that useful in that area, so they're not holding humanity back too badly. But still, no magnezone would mean better generators in general. Not to mention that pokemon everywhere else means that there really isn't very much of a knowlege base, or engineers, or manufacturing techniques, or materials. If you want generators, you're gonna have to take care of all of that yourself.

That's...

NO!

People would use Magnezone generators just until they could build better generators!

I know we like to discuss this like pokemon aren't sentient being, just, like AB said, alien technology we can abuse.

But the fact is no society is going to use pokemon like that.

More simply, it's pretty much like a tech tree in a strategy game. You need to research basic stuff to get the more advanced stuff. And you need the advanced stuff to get the uber-advanced stuff. And so on.

Pokemon offer free replacements to pretty much all of the basic techs, and quite a few of the advanced ones as well. Free replacements, in that you don't have to research the originals. But if you don't research the originals, you don't have the prerequisites for the advanced tech. And you don't even know that the advanced stuff exists, so why should you research the basic shit? You've got what you need after all. Right. RIGHT?

Actually, I see pokemon as being just barely below basic tech, or matching basic tech in some cases.

After all, there's no water pokemon (aside from Wailord I guess) that can carry two hundred people across the sea.

And because pokemon can only take you so far, you're still going to need to research the basic tech. And you'd do so at the same time that you're using pokemon, because it'd be stupid to start only after pokemon have outlived their usefulness.

Edit:
Menarker, why'd Renny quit PATCA? Your post made some hints, of course. You gonna reveal any more?

He's not quitting PATCA. Just considering it.

We're not that lucky, dude.

Menarker

09-17-2010, 12:37 PM

Edit:
Menarker, why'd Renny quit PATCA? Your post made some hints, of course. You gonna reveal any more?

He's not quitting PATCA. Just considering it.

We're not that lucky, dude.

Yeah, Renny isn't going to quit. Sorry Drac. :3

As for his motivation? He's scared! Scared for himself and his pokemons. He's barely even could be considered an adult, has no military training of his own, and his personal combat rating is "civilian" or "semi-medic" at best. (which obviously sucks for self defense). In all the previous missions, he basically only fought pokemons (and one guy with a knife). As a trainer, he could fight fire with fire and come out on top. Now he's dealing with snipers and military grade weapons that if targetted his way would be sure to kill his civilian status figure nigh instantly. That and hiding behind his pokemons as they take the full brunt of the attacks makes him feel like shit!

And to make matters worse, the people he work with are not that reassuring either! Pierce opted to have Lexhur blast the shit out of Togekiss instead of fighting around him or giving a chance for Renny to successfully bring him back. Impact threatened to shoot Renny and his pokemons during the pokegeddon fight. When some of your own team-mates are not much better than your enemies, you start wondering why you are on their side in the first place.

Mind you, there is still some room for inspiration with NPCs like Lola, Kurika and such, but even with them, he'll need some drastic change in order to stick with the group, and even then it might take some time to regain his full composure. Firstly being some way to become stronger to allivate his fears. Cue the pokebrid thing in a short while.

Geminex

09-17-2010, 12:40 PM

But I know what you're going to say now.
Good.

I'm sorry, have you looked at the RPDAs?
There's a difference between high-tech combat armor and personal strength amplifiers. Similar shape, drastically different funtion. Also, the former exist (because there was a need for them), the latter don't (because there wasn't), but probably would if not for fighting pokemon.

And if they were, it would just be that whole "unbridled scientific advancement" I talked about before. And even if you say that Impact wouldn't let that happen, the fact is that it would happen before Ray Green was even born. And he wouldn't be able to stop it after it's already in use.
Well, like I said before
a) the benefits that technology brings to people are generally way greater than the destruction caused by misuse of this technology. Even if weapons are made from that incredibly efficient portable energy source, it can be used in so many civillian ways, you wouldn't believe.
b) the only tech that'd be developed is the useful tech. The stuff that benefits you. Country-melting bombs don't really benefit anyone, at all. Not to mention that, in a sane world, WMDs don't really get used. If the world goes insane, you have a problem, but when everyone's thinking with at least some degree of common sense, then there probably won't be any nukes flying around. Much less Countrymelters.
and again,
c) Impact isn't the only guy capable of sane, effective government. Attempts to turn technology to uses that'd destroy the known world would probably be prevented by people in whose interests it is to keep the countries they rule whole.

Yeah, there'd be mistakes, and errors. Disasters would happen, people would die. But on the whole, society would advance.

People would use Magnezone generators just until they could build better generators!
How will they gain the ability to build better generators?

But the fact is no society is going to use pokemon like that.
Fighting battles, risking their lives is a-ok, but a lifetime of being fed and taken care of, in return for producing something that comes naturally to them is somehow inhuman? That's like paying a human to sweat.

He's not quitting PATCA. Just considering it.

We're not that lucky, dude.
Yah, that's what I mean. Gah. Tired.

And because pokemon can only take you so far, you're still going to need to research the basic tech. And you'd do so at the same time that you're using pokemon, because it'd be stupid to start only after pokemon have outlived their usefulness.
Nah. Pokemon have so much variety, so much power, it's way beyond what people would have on the "prerequisite" level. I mean, a society that uses pokemon and just pokemon could pretty much reach our level of technology without actually using any technology. That's not basic. And besides, how will you know that pokemon have "outlived their usefulness"? You'll know that pokemon can only take you so far. How will you know that there's any other way to go further?

Dracorion

09-17-2010, 01:00 PM

There's a difference between high-tech combat armor and personal strength amplifiers. Similar shape, drastically different funtion. Also, the former exist (because there was a need for them), the latter don't (because there wasn't), but probably would if not for fighting pokemon.

Okay.

Do you really want to give people the power to pound another human's skull into a fine dust?

Pokemon at least are docile and can be put into pokeballs.

Also, my point stands. Scientists wouldn't have researched personal strength amplifiers before high-tech combat armor. Or if they did, it would've been for military purposes.

And they're only just happening now. And they would still only be happening now without pokemon around.

Well, like I said before
a) the benefits that technology brings to people are generally way greater than the destruction caused by misuse of this technology. Even if weapons are made from that incredibly efficient portable energy source, it can be used in so many civillian ways, you wouldn't believe.

All it takes is one mistake or one crazy super-resourceful person.

And those happen far too often. Especially in a place like the Umbral world.

Basically, the nuke made nuclear reactors possible. And those are great! Except now all it takes is one fuck-up and the whole world goes straight to hell.

Now give the Umbral world nukes and how much easier it is to fuck it up.

b) the only tech that'd be developed is the useful tech. The stuff that benefits you. Country-melting bombs don't really benefit anyone, at all. Not to mention that, in a sane world, WMDs don't really get used. If the world goes insane, you have a problem, but when everyone's thinking with at least some degree of common sense, then there probably won't be any nukes flying around. Much less Countrymelters.

Nukes didn't exactly benefit anyone either when they were first made. But they were.

Honmyr is far from sane anyway.

and again,
c) Impact isn't the only guy capable of sane, effective government. Attempts to turn technology to uses that'd destroy the known world would probably be prevented by people in whose interests it is to keep the countries they rule whole.

Sorry, there's another country that's so much bigger than us about to wipe us out.

How's that Countrymelter going?

Yeah, there'd be mistakes, and errors. Disasters would happen, people would die. But on the whole, society would advance.

Right up until the world ends. Or at least gets sent back to the stone age.

How will they gain the ability to build better generators?

Same way they'd build generators without pokemon around!

Fighting battles, risking their lives is a-ok, but a lifetime of being fed and taken care of, in return for producing something that comes naturally to them is somehow inhuman? That's like paying a human to sweat.

Fed? I guess. But being stuck in a room constantly with little contact to the outside world?

Also, pokeballs mean their lives aren't really at risk. Besides, it's only some people that actually use their pokemon to fight. Most actually just live peacefully.

And in the case of the ones that do fight, it's not that different from a human participating in Ultimate Fighting.

Nah. Pokemon have so much variety, so much power, it's way beyond what people would have on the "prerequisite" level. I mean, a society that uses pokemon and just pokemon could pretty much reach our level of technology without actually using any technology. That's not basic.

Okay, maybe basic tech was an understatement.

Good thing society had the sense to not just rely on pokemon!

And besides, how will you know that pokemon have "outlived their usefulness"? You'll know that pokemon can only take you so far. How will you know that there's any other way to go further?

Same way you'd know if there weren't any pokemon around?

And it's not like humanity is scraping at the mud while letting the pokemon do all their work for them.

They'd have a hell of a head start.

Geminex

09-17-2010, 01:14 PM

Also, my point stands. Scientists wouldn't have researched personal strength amplifiers before high-tech combat armor. Or if they did, it would've been for military purposes.

And they're only just happening now. And they would still only be happening now without pokemon around.
Ok. Why? How do you deduce this? Both of them. The former seems like speculation, and I'm pretty sure that the latter is false.

Sorry, there's another country that's so much bigger than us about to wipe us out.

How's that Countrymelter going?
...
OH LOOK AT THAT LITTLE COUNTRY SO CUTE MAN I AM GOING TO WIPE IT OUT SO HARD AND RAPE ITS POPULATION
...
OHSHIT THEY HAVE COUNTRYMELTERS BETTER STAY AWAY

Except now all it takes is one fuck-up and the whole world goes straight to hell.
That's political though. Not the result of technology. And at the moment, everyone's disarming and agreeing not to use nukes on anyone else. You're saying it's impossible that could have happened in the Umbralverse?

Same way they'd build generators without pokemon around!
No.
Look, researching and building generators takes resources.
There's no reason to invest resources in something if you have something else that does it better. Pokemon do it better.
Seriously, this is basic. And I've explained it half a dozen times. There's no reason for generators to exist at all.

Good thing society had the sense to not just rely on pokemon!
How do you know they didn't? That'd be utterly irrational. And while individual humans aren't always rational, if you give people a way to do something with little effort, and a way to do it with a lot of effort, they will choose the easy way. It's why global warming is currently fucking us over, oil was the easy way.

Same way you'd know if there weren't any pokemon around?
No?
Seriously. No. You're going to know that pokemon aren't suitable for a task. But you're not going to know that there's a better way to complete this task. Because you're going to be missing the infrastructure, the mindset, everything.

Seriously, stop making me repeat myself. Come up with new arguments, I'll respond to those. But in the absence of that, I elaborated on most of this before. Read that.

Menarker

09-17-2010, 01:26 PM

I said it once already but I'll say it again.

Impact is the Umbral-verse's Lex Luthor.

That is all. :3

Dracorion

09-17-2010, 01:36 PM

Ok. Why? How do you deduce this? Both of them. The former seems like speculation, and I'm pretty sure that the latter is false.

The former makes sense. If people were to build super-strength suits, they'd be building them to kill each other.

The latter, well, because like I said, if they could build them before it'd be the whole unbridled technological advacement.

And that's bad, no matter what you say people would do.

Because while there's all sorts of medical advancements and stuff. Like you said all technology is interrelated. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to make a weapon out of something that was intended for regular use.

And even the government would do it, either because they were at war, or Impact told them to do it so they could wipe out the pokemon.

I'm not saying Impact would do it, but not every world conqueror has Geminex controlling them OOC.

...
OH LOOK AT THAT LITTLE COUNTRY SO CUTE MAN I AM GOING TO WIPE IT OUT SO HARD AND RAPE ITS POPULATION

You know it's more complicated than that. But that shit happens.

...
OHSHIT THEY HAVE COUNTRYMELTERS BETTER STAY AWAY

More like "HEY LET'S BUILD OUR OWN COUNTRYMELTERS AND END UP IN A STALEMATE UNTIL SOME CRAZY SON OF A BITCH MAKES US KILL EACH OTHER".

And all it takes is one Faynoc or Burkmont to make it happen. Except it wouldn't be like both countries killing each other. More like one killing the other and the first one only suffers acceptable casualties and hey! Now Faynoc or Burkmont is president!

Or Impact.

That's political though. Not the result of technology. And at the moment, everyone's disarming and agreeing not to use nukes on anyone else. You're saying it's impossible that could have happened in the Umbralverse?

Honmyr could very well be the most advanced country in the world right now. They're just busy actually dealing with their pokemon threats. Take pokemon away from everyone and you'd have one super-advanced country steamrolling everyone else because why not?

No.
Look, researching and building generators takes resources.
There's no reason to invest resources in something if you have something else that does it better. Pokemon do it better.
Seriously, this is basic. And I've explained it half a dozen times. There's no reason for generators to exist at all.

No. Pokemon don't do it better. Like I explained, not every city or town is going to have a Magnezone generator.

Those cities are going to need to their own. In the Umbralverse, this is what happened. Not that it just happened, it happened a while back.

How do you know they didn't? That'd be utterly irrational. And while individual humans aren't always rational, if you give people a way to do something with little effort, and a way to do it with a lot of effort, they will choose the easy way. It's why global warming is currently fucking us over, oil was the easy way.

Are you looking at Honmyr right now? The games and the anime? They have cars and cities and hospitals and hotels and law enforcement and all sorts of shit.

Shit that doesn't run on pokemon.

It's already happened.

No?
Seriously. No. You're going to know that pokemon aren't suitable for a task. But you're not going to know that there's a better way to complete this task. Because you're going to be missing the infrastructure, the mindset, everything.

Again, are you looking at the Umbralverse? They don't. They're doing it.

Seriously, stop making me repeat myself. Come up with new arguments, I'll respond to those. But in the absence of that, I elaborated on most of this before. Read that.

I've had to repeat myself a few times in my last couple of posts.

Geminex

09-17-2010, 02:08 PM

The former makes sense. If people were to build super-strength suits, they'd be building them to kill each other.
What if there's no need to kill each other?

The latter, well, because like I said, if they could build them before it'd be the whole unbridled technological advacement.
What do you mean? Yeah. If people could build exosuits, it'd be a sign of technological advancement. What's the point?

Because while there's all sorts of medical advancements and stuff. Like you said all technology is interrelated. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to make a weapon out of something that was intended for regular use.

And even the government would do it, either because they were at war, or Impact told them to do it so they could wipe out the pokemon.
It's more complex that that, to quote you. The fact that a weapon is powerful doesn't mean it has much potential to cause great harm. Because the greater the harm it can cause, the more hesitation to use it there will be.
And look, people don't need high-tech WMDs to kill each other. They have pokemon that can control the weather and cause natural disasters. Just as an example.

More like "HEY LET'S BUILD OUR OWN COUNTRYMELTERS AND END UP IN A STALEMATE UNTIL SOME CRAZY SON OF A BITCH MAKES US KILL EACH OTHER".
See above. Sure, terrible weapons are gonna become a possibility. But it doesn't take humanity long to realize that super-destructive weapons aren't very practical, since you can't really use them. Since if you have them, so do your foes.

Hell, I'd go as far as to say that, after a few decades of "cold war", no more WMDs would be built, cause it'd be utterly pointless.

Honmyr could very well be the most advanced country in the world right now. They're just busy actually dealing with their pokemon threats. Take pokemon away from everyone and you'd have one super-advanced country steamrolling everyone else because why not?
If Hommnyr's super-advanced, it'd be steamrolling the others regardless of pokemon.

No. Pokemon don't do it better. Like I explained, not every city or town is going to have a Magnezone generator.

Those cities are going to need to their own. In the Umbralverse, this is what happened. Not that it just happened, it happened a while back.
Well... no. Path of least resistance. Even if magnezone generators are a rare thing, settlements would simply have clustered around them. And why would said generators be rare at all? There's plenty of pokemon available.

And ok, assume that people started by using magnemite, then realized that they were limited. What then? By the time the limitations really started showing, they'd have been using them for centuries. You're saying society's gonna respecialize, just like that? The time wasted on learning better ways to use magnemite, plus the time necessary to respecialize and discover some other way of generating electricity. That's how much magnemite would have held scientific development back.

Are you looking at Honmyr right now? The games and the anime? They have cars and cities and hospitals and hotels and law enforcement and all sorts of shit.
Huh. We know they have technology, of course. But how does that prove any point?
I'm not saying they can't have technology. I'm saying they would have had technology one hell of a lot quicker if not for pokemon.

Again, are you looking at the Umbralverse? They don't. They're doing it.
And I don't want to know how long it took them to develop the way they have, and how long it'd take them to develop if not for Impact's intervention.

I've had to repeat myself a few times in my last couple of posts.
If it was something I missed, I blame the fact that I'm tired. But I'm pretty sure it was something that I felt I had adequately countered, but that you felt was still valid. Misunderstanding, in a way.

Y'know what, once again, quick train of thought:

1: Humanity uses resources where it is necessary
2: Assuming that pokemon came into existence before humanity reached 1900s level technology, pokemon training would have provided a better way than technology to do almost anything, making technology unnecessary
3: This would have resulted in little "investment" in technological advancement, also in a degrading in education (because no longer necessary) and economy (because of an individual providing for itself, also lack of tech)
4: This would be a bad thing
5: Without pokemon, technology and with it standards of living would have improved considerably over what they are now
6: Continued technological advancement, while bearing risks, would have been worth it

Those are really my only 6 points. Which are you attacking? 6 and... 2? 3?
Anyway, bye. It's way too late for me.

Dracorion

09-17-2010, 02:51 PM

What if there's no need to kill each other?

Short of mass mind control, how are you going to do that?

A) You're going to need those weapons for your initial takeovers.

B) You're still going to need them for anyone who revolts to the death after your takeover.

Even my proposed "immortality for everyone" idea doesn't fix that.

What do you mean? Yeah. If people could build exosuits, it'd be a sign of technological advancement. What's the point?

It's not just the exosuits. It's everything else that would come along with the exosuits. Humanity would choke itself on new inventions.

It's more complex that that, to quote you. The fact that a weapon is powerful doesn't mean it has much potential to cause great harm. Because the greater the harm it can cause, the more hesitation to use it there will be.
And look, people don't need high-tech WMDs to kill each other. They have pokemon that can control the weather and cause natural disasters. Just as an example.

And all it takes for them is one pokeball. True, pokemon are walking WMDs in and of themselves.

So yeah, my example about Countrymelters was probably too much.

All people need to kill each other is nukes and ballistic missiles, at most.

But anyway, look at Russia and the US. All it takes is a big enough spark. In the Umbralverse, which is ruled by the laws of plot and fantasy, it'd be stupidly easy to get them to kill each other.

Why? I dunno, I'm sure a madman can figure something out.

Hell, I'd go as far as to say that, after a few decades of "cold war", no more WMDs would be built, cause it'd be utterly pointless.

Eh, I'm sure they'd keep a few, just in case.

If Hommnyr's super-advanced, it'd be steamrolling the others regardless of pokemon.

Honmyr's not super-advanced right now. But it would be without the pokemon.

Well... no. Path of least resistance. Even if magnezone generators are a rare thing, settlements would simply have clustered around them. And why would said generators be rare at all? There's plenty of pokemon available.

Because way over there in the south there are no Magnezone. How do you think they're going to get their electricity?

And then the word just spreads. There's no reason people wouldn't want a generator that doesn't involve putting a pokemon through torture.

And ok, assume that people started by using magnemite, then realized that they were limited. What then? By the time the limitations really started showing, they'd have been using them for centuries. You're saying society's gonna respecialize, just like that? The time wasted on learning better ways to use magnemite, plus the time necessary to respecialize and discover some other way of generating electricity. That's how much magnemite would have held scientific development back.

See above. Pokemon of all types don't just run around on all regions and climates.

You don't see ice-types running around in the tropics. Pokemon have their own habitat. So then, people living in a habitat that doesn't contain Magnemite or Magneton? What do you think they'd do?

Huh. We know they have technology, of course. But how does that prove any point?
I'm not saying they can't have technology. I'm saying they would have had technology one hell of a lot quicker if not for pokemon.

Oh, you were implying that people were content to live only on pokemon-tech.

I was just saying they weren't.

And I don't want to know how long it took them to develop the way they have, and how long it'd take them to develop if not for Impact's intervention.

Why not?

All we'd have to do is ask AB.

You know, one could take this as a sign that you already know what AB's answer is going to be.

1: Humanity uses resources where it is necessary

'Kay.

2: Assuming that pokemon came into existence before humanity reached 1900s level technology, pokemon training would have provided a better way than technology to do almost anything, making technology unnecessary

Well, pokemon have been around for more than sixteen hundred years.

It was sixteen hundred years ago that Malcolm Elliot only first captured Primal Exist and make the Ruin pokemon and Ruin Generals. So pokemon would probably have been around for a while before Elliot's time.

Actually, it might help your case to know how Elliot trapped Exist in the first place. I doubt he did it in a bamboo cage, and since the only magic in the Umbralverse is pokemon powers, and there's no way for humans to channel that, then he would've had to use technology, wouldn't he?

So if there was technology to trap a being like Exist sixteen hundred years ago, that would mean one of two things:

1) Technological advancement really has been hindered A LOT by pokemon.

2) Society has been reset (sent back to the stone age by some calamity or another) at least once. I don't know why, but I have wondered why it is that, even though they presumably broke off sixteen hundred years ago, the Rogue Ruin Generals are only acting up now.

But even that explanation doesn't quite fit, does it?

3: This would have resulted in little "investment" in technological advancement, also in a degrading in education (because no longer necessary) and economy (because of an individual providing for itself, also lack of tech)

Nope. People in one region would still have needed to master electrical engineering because they didn't have Magnemite, but yes, they may have been stunted in other fields because pokemon already filled that void.

Then, as society advanced, they all melded together and shafted a good number of pokemon jobs.

4: This would be a bad thing

Would it? With my example above, it may have meant that there were in fact more people to specialize in one field, potentially even advancing it further than if there were no pokemon and everyone had to dedicate themselves to everything.

And then when societies communicated with each other, then they would have access to all the super-especialized fields.

5: Without pokemon, technology and with it standards of living would have improved considerably over what they are now

See the above two trains of thought.

6: Continued technological advancement, while bearing risks, would have been worth it

I disagree and I've already said why.