Parasite Eve: 3rd Birthday OR Squeenix are a bunch of fucking idiots

[Kim]

So, having recently played Parasite Eve, I rather enjoyed both the game and the lead female protagonist. She could have been fleshed out more, but she was a strong character, and the game didn't treat her like walking fanservice.

BUT FUCK THAT 3RD BIRTHDAY HAS MOTOMU TORIYAMA ON THE TEAM, AND HE'LL BE DAMNED IF THERE ISN'T UNNECESSARY FANSERVICE IN ONE OF HIS GAMES!

So, in 3rd Birthday, Aya's clothes will come off as she takes damage (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/103261-The-3rd-Birthday-Doesnt-Mean-to-Turn-You-On-Says-Square-Enix). The members of NPF are at least somewhat intelligent, so I don't think I need to tell you that that is a fucking stupid thing.

And, of course, they try to cover their asses...

"But we didn't do that because we wanted to show her in a very sexy light. It's more like that's reality," he added. "If you keep fighting obviously you'll get ripped and damaged and injured and wounded. So we just wanted to make it plausible and realistic. That's all."

They're not even trying to come up with a plausible excuse. This is hilarious. Would this be happening if it were a male character? Would his clothes become tattered all the way down to his boxers because that's "realistic"?

Mostly I just wanted to vent, because Parasite Eve was awesome, and not only do they have the guy who absolutely should not be writing any video games in charge of writing it, but they're pulling this shit, too.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Depends on how far they take it. There are games that have done this and pulled it off decently. Soul Calibur 4, Virtual-On Otario Tangram, ect. Even quite a few of the DBZ games do it.

So it's a bit soon to rip it apart just yet. Despite Motomu working on it.

And to assume it's a bad thing when a character's clothing gets damaged during a battle simply because said character is a female is a bit necessary despite your reasons.

[Kim]

http://i56.tinypic.com/34g3j7m.jpg
I do not think this is pulling it off decently.

[EVILNess]

I've gotten to the point where I go "Hmm, fanservice." and then pretty much pay it no mind. I can thank Kenichi for that.

I've been waiting for 10 years for a third Parasite Eve game and your Nerd Rage will not stop my enjoyment of the game!

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Okay maybe there's a good reason for her being nearly naked... No, no there probably isn't one.

Well no since in letting that ruin your fun.

[greed]

Yeah there kinda is. It's just annoying sexist bullshit in a series which previously didn't have that leve(if any, haven't played Parasite Eve).

Plus in NonCon's case he isn't even getting any enjoyment from the fanservice. Though honestly, serious horror RPG isn't where I want fanservice either, it's just gratuitous, annoying and kinda offensive.


I've gotten to the point where I go "Hmm, fanservice." and then pretty much pay it no mind. I can thank Kenichi for that.

I've been waiting for 10 years for a third Parasite Eve game and your Nerd Rage will not stop my enjoyment of the game!

But Motomu Toriyama's writing and overall total incompetence will!

[Shyria Dracnoir]

"They don't even know what panties are and yet they feel compelled to raid"

"Every male of every species has the biological urge to panty raid"

Just as a counterpoint, all of my games will feature full frontal male nudity in the damage system. It'd be a great way to motivate players not to suck if every hit gets them one step closer to a face full of hairy man-junk.

[Jagos]

"They don't even know what panties are and yet they feel compelled to raid"

"Every male of every species has the biological urge to panty raid"

Just as a counterpoint, all of my games will feature full frontal male nudity in the damage system. It'd be a great way to motivate players not to suck if every hit gets them one step closer to a face full of hairy man-junk.


I can see the inspiration... (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/7983-Critical-Miss-26)

But, no... Just NO.

[PyrosNine]

Wasn't the entire premise of Parasite Eve kinda sexist? To the point that in the original book, the woman's evil mitochondria end up being defeated by male mitochondria? Which is why in the game, she seeks to obtain a sample of non-male mitochrondria sperm?

[krogothwolf]

I....I mean this would be cool if it was body armour that was getting destroyed as you took damage. But getting her nekkid(almost) before she croaks from to much damage?

That's moronic. Idiotic and how are they going to explain the clothing getting fixed as she recovers? Magical clothing heals her? The potion fixes her clothing? GAH!

[EVILNess]

Look if I let every stupid design choice bog down my suspension of disbelief for video games I would never enjoy any game ever.

I mean, in most FPSes you don't have legs.

[Arlia Janet]

I tried this game 10 years ago, but I didn't pique my interest... I think because I felt the actual gameplay was clumsy.

However, does anyone else remember the art book/strategy guide came with the first game? This retrospective (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN2IECkIV18) has images of it. The series has at least always been marketed using this pseudo-nudity regardless of the actual game content.

[Donomni]

Obviously, the only counter to this would be a next gen Ghosts N' Goblins or Maximo.

Oddly enough, cartoony dudes in heart-print boxers can counter a lot of things.

[Specterbane]

This whole topic reminds me of the Extra Credits video about holding video games to a higher standard and letting developers know what we do and don't like. Cause, seriously this:

http://i56.tinypic.com/34g3j7m.jpg
I do not think this is pulling it off decently.

Is just ridiculous and shameless. We really should find a way to get developers to stop treating everyone like hormone crazed teeny-boppers.

[BitVyper]

how are they going to explain the clothing getting fixed as she recovers?

Hopefully it doesn't.

I kid. Although keeping the superficial wounds and clothing damage would actually make more sense than the alternative. Maybe add a tangible benefit to being clothed (there probably is in the form of armour, at least), and force the player to actually get new stuff occasionally, although that could just turn into an annoying weapon degradation system if you weren't careful, but having some kind of longer term penalty to letting yourself get set on fire could make it more immersive if done right.

In all honesty though, I don't really have a huge problem with it. Not the most tasteful design decision, but not completely senseless either. Hell, Soul Calibur's already done it. I wouldn't mind if this lead to a trend where we started to actually see the wounds and bandages on more heroes. It is kind of nice in a way, to see the current gen's graphical power being put to use for details like this, even if it is being done in a fanservicey way.

Edit: I kinda figure it's probably the sort of thing someone's wanted to do for awhile, and just wasn't going to be given the time/budget until it seemed to add a clear selling point to the game.

Edit 2: Of course I boycott everything Square makes by default these days, so I doubt I'll be trying it anyway.

[Kim]

Wasn't the entire premise of Parasite Eve kinda sexist? To the point that in the original book, the woman's evil mitochondria end up being defeated by male mitochondria? Which is why in the game, she seeks to obtain a sample of non-male mitochrondria sperm?

Mitochondria are, therefore, in most cases inherited down the female line, known as maternal inheritance.

Possibly, though there seems to be a valid argument for opting to make the female character's mitochondria turn evil, from a storytelling perspective at least.

In the movie, he defeats her by hugging her while on fire!

Also, wasn't aware about the pseudo-nudity in the strategy guide or whatever. I'm very disappointed.

[Azisien]

That's pretty hilarious. So what is it like....you get shot and suddenly you're in a bikini? And then you get a medpack and your clothes regenerate? Or do they have regenerating health/clothes?

The possibility for in-game hilarity is sky high. And yes, it would be equally if not more hilarious for me if this were a man.

[Nique]

I'm having a similar problem with a show I'm watching right now. I thought I could get through 'Star Trek Enterprise' but the fanservice is pretty obscene and this is the least of it's problems.

Yeah I don't need every female lead to be sexed up in order to enjoy the game/ story. There are plenty of succesful examples of this, though they are in the great minority.

[Shyria Dracnoir]

Maybe there's something inherent about television and video game production that naturally attracts the sexually frusterated elements of society.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Why is it that double standard seems to rise up every time a game shows even the slightest bit of fan service be it male or female?

That always bothered me. Its sad that games cannot evolve into full detail because of this. It's like we'll be forever stuck at this level. We might as well not even bother to improve graphics, hell we should decrease them if gamers are going to complain about it.

Almost convinced now that this gen should be the last. At least in till society can get past this fear of partial nudity.

My god we can't even have good looking characters without half the entire gaming community bitching about fan service. Is this really what I'm going to have to deal with when I get into the industry?

[Kim]

I don't have a problem with partial nudity, or even full nudity. I really don't. What I have a problem with is when it is in the game unnecessarily. In Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age it was fine because it was the result of building a relationship with a character and following that to its natural conclusion. In this, it's just the developers making Aya half-naked because they'll sell more copies that way or some other such flimsy reasoning. There's no real justification for it, partially because you know it wouldn't be the case were the character male, because men in speedos tend not to sell as many copies as girls in bikinies. Furthermore, it's especially irritating to me, having recently played the first game and genuinely enjoyed the character, because I can't help but feel that if they're going to use her for blatant fanservice there's probably not a whole lot of respect for the character on their end, and that will effect the way they write her. And yes, it is what you're going to have to deal with if you get into the industry, and it is what you should have to deal with, especially if you decide to treat the clothing of every female character in your story like a scene out of Ikki Tousen.

[Aldurin]

So, having recently played Parasite Eve, I rather enjoyed both the game and the lead female protagonist. She could have been fleshed out more, but she was a strong character, and the game didn't treat her like walking fanservice.

BUT FUCK THAT 3RD BIRTHDAY HAS MOTOMU TORIYAMA ON THE TEAM, AND HE'LL BE DAMNED IF THERE ISN'T UNNECESSARY FANSERVICE IN ONE OF HIS GAMES!

So, in 3rd Birthday, Aya's clothes will come off as she takes damage (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/103261-The-3rd-Birthday-Doesnt-Mean-to-Turn-You-On-Says-Square-Enix). The members of NPF are at least somewhat intelligent, so I don't think I need to tell you that that is a fucking stupid thing.

And, of course, they try to cover their asses...



They're not even trying to come up with a plausible excuse. This is hilarious. Would this be happening if it were a male character? Would his clothes become tattered all the way down to his boxers because that's "realistic"?

Mostly I just wanted to vent, because Parasite Eve was awesome, and not only do they have the guy who absolutely should not be writing any video games in charge of writing it, but they're pulling this shit, too.

http://i56.tinypic.com/34g3j7m.jpg
I do not think this is pulling it off decently.

This could have gone better if they either removed it (the clothes-loss thing, not the clothes) completely or improved it more to the point of calling it an official feature and warn you what kind of weird damage-animation shit you're getting into.

It does seem kinda hokey how a Japanese game company makes a game with a female protagonist that loses her clothes as she takes damage. I could understand this as a realism attempt if it was just rips and tears in the clothes and not a violent striptease.

[Nique]

In this, it's just the developers making Aya half-naked because they'll sell more copies that way or some other such flimsy reasoning. There's no real justification for it, partially because you know it wouldn't be the case were the character male, because men in speedos tend not to sell as many copies as girls in bikinies. Furthermore, it's especially irritating to me, having recently played the first game and genuinely enjoyed the character, because I can't help but feel that if they're going to use her for blatant fanservice there's probably not a whole lot of respect for the character on their end, and that will effect the way they write her. And yes, it is what you're going to have to deal with if you get into the industry, and it is what you should have to deal with, especially if you decide to treat the clothing of every female character in your story like a scene out of Ikki Tousen.


QFT.

It's sexist, guys. Some people don't care for the winking at archaic male-centric domination fantasy fanwanking to be this ever-present 'thing'. I mean, this is worse in some ways than a game where fan-service is the point.

My god we can't even have good looking characters without half the entire gaming community bitching about fan service. Is this really what I'm going to have to deal with when I get into the industry?

You're going to be able to make all the naked people in games you want, but you would do well to know a thing or two about sexism so that when you create a ridiculously proportioned female character you can claim you were attempting to create a 'strong female heroine'.

[01d55]

The best way to get someone to do something evil is to convince them that they aren't responsible for their own actions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html). For example, get a bunch of marketing types to convince you that it's the audience (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisLoserIsYou) and even though that's totally bullshit (http://thehathorlegacy.com/nobody-knows-anything-but-dont-tell-the-financiers/), they want to believe it so they can gratify themselves (http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-schools-teach-screenwriters-not-to-pass-the-bechdel-test/).

[Shyria Dracnoir]

QFT.

It's sexist, guys. Some people don't care for the winking at archaic male-centric domination fantasy fanwanking to be this ever-present 'thing'. I mean, this is worse in some ways than a game where fan-service is the point.

Excellent point. At least things like H-games are honest about being fap material. The dishonesty inherent in trying to flimsily sugar-coat your wank fantasies with buzzwords just makes you look ridiculous.

[Kim]

It's sexist, guys.

It's not just sexist in the way it treats its female character, but also in its assumption that the vast majority of gamers are male and that's who they should specifically market to. It's also dismissive of male homosexuals in that way.

[RobinStarwing]

I've played the first and second Parasite Eve (the second wasn't as good at the first thought). The game is Sci-fi horror with a slight erotic bent. This is considering that in the first game, you find Mitochondrial Eve in the New York Museum of Natural History nearly naked and pregnant with the Ultimate Being.

Than there was the shower scene in Parasite Eve 2. Before you fought this huge Neo-Mitochondrial Creature with a Flamethrower for a mouth.

So, in Parasite Eve, there was always Fan-service aimed at the male players of the game. THAT is why the games were ALWAYS rated M outside of the violence and blood.

But in 3rd Birthday? Yeah this is going a bit far in my book but if I had a PSP...I'd still probably buy it.

Just proves that even the best of us are nothing more than pathetic males being led around by our three-piece sets most of the time.

[Jagos]

True, but where's my first two games?

It's also dismissive of male homosexuals in that way.

Didn't Square just come out with an LGBT character?

[RobinStarwing]

Didn't Square just come out with an LGBT character?



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Kpo05xeBhrU/TCy-0Q7LFHI/AAAAAAAAB0E/DWB1I3LDpi4/s1600/Vaan.jpg

Answer your question?

[Kim]

Didn't Square just come out with an LGBT character?

Only thing I can think of along those lines is Kaine, who is biologically a hermaphrodite, which was actually come up with by Cavia. Squeenix just published the game. Aside from that, it wasn't exactly the best treatment we could have hoped, since a canon short story released alongside the game in Japan has her jacking off after killing enemies. Her treatment in the game is good, though she leaves much to be desired, but I still can't get past that.

[EVILNess]

Have you gotten to Parasite Eve 2 yet NonCon? If you do play it be aware it plays much more like Resident Evil, tank controls and all.

[Kim]

So I hear. I usually only have time to play games I intend to review, and I don't like to review multiple games in the same franchise close together, so it'll probably be a couple months at least before I get around to it.

[POS Industries]

Obviously, the only counter to this would be a next gen Ghosts N' Goblins or Maximo.
But you can't white knight a white knight!

We must, as a society, continue to rage over boobs but find male nudity hilarious!

[Kyanbu The Legend]

But you can't white knight a white knight!

We must, as a society, continue to rage over boobs but find male nudity hilarious!

Sadly.

Anyway, this thread is making me want to play that copy of Parasite Eve that's always floating around the house.

[RobinStarwing]

Sadly.

Anyway, this thread is making me want to play that copy of Parasite Eve that's always floating around the house.

Damn...what you smoking? My games never float on me!

[Kim]

We must, as a society, continue to rage over boobs but find male nudity hilarious!

Man, I thought this thread was missing something. Little did I know it just needed a healthy dose of POS missing the point!

[Shyria Dracnoir]

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p1/kajunartist/itupclose.jpg

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p1/kajunartist/itupclose.jpg

Goddammit Shyria!

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Damn...what you smoking? My games never float on me!

Oh it's just Peter. He thinks he's a scary ghost but he's not. Sometimes he hides the disc on me just to try and bug me. It never works.

[POS Industries]

Man, I thought this thread was missing something. Little did I know it just needed a healthy dose of POS missing the point!
No, I get the point. It's cheap pandering to a community that you're a part of and you hate the idea of gamers as a whole being viewed as a sorry bunch of basement-dwelling virgins that'll all run out and buy any game that has girls showing skin. The problem is that, as long as gamers in general keep perpetuating that stereotype, game companies are going to take advantage of it in order to make a quick buck.

Also? This is literally Ghosts 'n Goblins with a girl. And that's my issue. We're all supposed to get bent out of shape and offended over something like this, but when pretty much the exact same mechanic has been used for male characters for the past 25 years we have a mild, nostalgic chuckle and go on about our business.

You don't see anything wrong with that?

[Krylo]

Also? This is literally Ghosts 'n Goblins with a girl.

There are no medpacks. Just folded up police uniforms.

[Archbio]

Also? This is literally Ghosts 'n Goblins with a girl.

No it's not.

It's not "we as a society" who find this offensive and Ghosts 'N Goblin hilarious. Ghosts 'n Goblins' nudie mechanic was played for laughs. This is played for TEH SEX. I recall playing Ghosts 'n Goblins and there was nothing remotely sexual about its semi-nudity. People chuckle about it because that's all there was to it. COMEDY BOXERS. Nudity doesn't have to be sexual, and it certainly isn't always exploitative.

This is.

Maybe you could have Ghosts 'n Goblin with a woman, but this isn't it. That's the point.

[POS Industries]

There are no medpacks. Just folded up police uniforms.
And that's all you gotta do to change this game from sexist to sexawesome.

No it's not.

It's not "we as a society" who find this offensive and Ghosts 'N Goblin hilarious. Ghosts 'n Goblins' nudie mechanic was played for laughs. This is played for TEH SEX. I recall playing Ghosts 'n Goblins and there was nothing remotely sexual about its semi-nudity. People chuckle about it because that's all there was to it. COMEDY BOXERS. Nudity doesn't have to be sexual, and it certainly isn't always exploitative.

This is.

Maybe you could have Ghosts 'n Goblin with a woman, but this isn't it. That's the point.
But see, that's my point. Same mechanic, but it's comedic if it's a male and sexist pandering if it's a female. That's the mentality from production to consumption. Male nudity == funny, female nudity == sexy. Hell, even if this was done as sexy male nudity, how much you wanna bet this wouldn't be an issue? And if it were done as comedic female nudity, how much you wanna bet it would still be viewed as sexist pandering?

[Kim]

No, I get the point. It's cheap pandering to a community that you're a part ofBeing dismissive and rude towards me and my viewpoint - Check!

You hate the idea of gamers as a whole being viewed as a sorry bunch of basement-dwelling virgins that'll all run out and buy any game that has girls showing skin.Oh! Hey! I was right! You missed the point! Yay me!

The problem is that, as long as gamers in general keep perpetuating that stereotype, game companies are going to take advantage of it in order to make a quick buck.Numsy addressed this (http://thehathorlegacy.com/nobody-knows-anything-but-dont-tell-the-financiers/). Plus, saying it's okay because capitalism is a fucking weak-ass excuse regardless.

Also? This is literally Ghosts 'n Goblins with a girl. And that's my issue. We're all supposed to get bent out of shape and offended over something like this, but when pretty much the exact same mechanic has been used for male characters for the past 25 years we have a mild, nostalgic chuckle and go on about our business.

You don't see anything wrong with that?

Male nudity is funny because it's generally done to be funny, and is played in a way that is meant to come across as funny. This is just blatant fanservice, as it almost always is. Two things being done differently with different intent is generally enough for me to say "Hey. This is different!" Mind-blowing, I know, but I'm sure you can wrap your head around the concept.

Furthermore, gaming stories and characters are generally very male oriented, so I appreciate when a game doesn't treat its female characters like a princess to be rescued or nothing more than a pair of titties. Parasite Eve was, in my honest opinion, one of those games. This takes that, and runs in the opposite direction, and that bothers me.

EDIT:
But see, that's my point. Same mechanic, but it's comedic if it's a male and sexist pandering if it's a female. That's the mentality from production to consumption. Male nudity == funny, female nudity == sexy.

It isn't sexist because it's sexist? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLZ

[Archbio]

Same mechanic, but it's comedic if it's a male and sexist pandering if it's a female.

Same mechanic, but everything else is different.

The everything else matters.

That's the mentality from production to consumption.

It's only the production side that matters, because Ghosts 'n Goblins came out as a comedy, non-sexualized game. It's not the consummers that decided in this case not to inject sexuality into it as much as they will now in this. It just wasn't presented that way. Bland, cartoon male semi-nudity with comedy boxers. There's not much to go on with that.

Parasite Eve is a pre-existing game with a non-comedic tone with characters that are meant as psychologically and physically realistic (as opposed to being cartoons.) This supposedly identical game mechanic being applied retroactively doesn't transform it into the same thing that it was in Ghosts 'N Goblins.

Now, is it a problem that the same subject matter would basically be segregated to two different genres with two starkly different treatments? I believe that kind of meets NonCon's point, if followed in good faith, rather than somehow sap the credibility of objections to this kind of thing.

[BitVyper]

Ghosts 'n Goblins' nudie mechanic was played for laughs

I'm pretty sure everyone would be exactly as offended if Aya had a heart pattern on her underwear and slightly more cartoonish proportions. You couldn't play it for laughs with a girl because no one's gonna take it that way.

Hell, bishoujo type characters get played for laughs all the time, and it still gets called sexist fanservice. Even when they're basically parodying the entire concept of bishoujo.

[Arlia Janet]

This has been done well before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6h8Nkx7cqg). There is nothing funny or sexual about Samus' death. I always thought it was one of the more powerful death animations because you know that she's going to die alone, suffocating on a hostile world.

[IHateMakingNames]

Besides the fact that she's an attractive female lead, I don't really see the sexy. In that screen shot her legs are covered in blood, pretty sure there is some on her back, and it looks like she is limping.

I like this feature, because I like the concept of damage being shown on character models. If it happens to be done on an attractive female, well then that's awesome. I just hope it isn't a cheesy feature with generic battle damage based on healthy. If she gets clawed in the back she gets a claw mark on the back of her shirt, not getting shot in the leg makes her sleeves pop off.

Edit - From the wiki page, apparently clothes and health will be separate, as it says you take less damage with more clothes on and vice versa. So there are probably health packs and sets of clothes lying around separately.

[Kim]

I'm pretty sure everyone would be exactly as offended if Aya had a heart pattern on her underwear and slightly more cartoonish proportions. You couldn't play it for laughs with a girl because no one's gonna take it that way.

Hey, thanks for telling me what will or will not offend me. I really appreciate that. Can you tell me what I want for dinner next? I'm pretty hungry.

[Krylo]

Hey, thanks for telling me what will or will not offend me. I really appreciate that. Can you tell me what I want for dinner next? I'm pretty hungry.

McDonald's.

Also:

To be like, halfway almost serious for a second, in so much as I fully agree this is going to be played for fan service with a single bullet or knife or whatever ripping off huge chunks of Aya's clothing, I only think that because I'm a realist with a conceptual idea of how the industry as a whole works.

Not because of Nonsie's screen.

In PE:1 most of the time you were taking damage it was from giant energy beams, or acid spit, or being set on fire or being put through the biological equivalent of a meat grinder, etc. with Miss Brea only surviving because she is super mitochondrically evolved or whatever.

The only thing unrealistic about the amount of clothing damage, given that, is that her bra and panties are apparently made of adamantium.

Speaking of comic books: They really need to do a superman game with realistic clothing degradation/destruction.


....And on another note I'm not sure if that's blood on her or gross sewer stuff. Either way though it is kinda gross.

[Nikose Tyris]

Can you tell me what I want for dinner next? I'm pretty hungry.

Egg Salad and tomato slices. Fucking exquisite.

Also, am I the only one who looks at that image and finds absolutely nothing sexy/fanservicey about it? Honestly, this is not the type of game to get my wank on. I get the feeling that if I ever unzipped my pants a tentacle monster would pop out and scare the bejezus out of me.

Edit: I got jacked by a fucking 8 minute difference what the fucking hell, he wrote a god damned wall.

[Krylo]

Also, am I the only one who looks at that image and finds absolutely nothing sexy/fanservicey about it? Honestly, this is not the type of game to get my wank on. I get the feeling that if I ever unzipped my pants a tentacle monster would pop out and scare the bejezus out of me.Yeah, but it's from Japan.

That's the sexiest part for them.

Edit: I got jacked by a fucking 8 minute difference what the fucking hell, he wrote a god damned wall.
L2Type, Nublet.

[Nikose Tyris]

Yeah, but it's from Japan.

That's the sexiest part for them.

Man I get less and less attracted to japanese people every day.

L2Type, Nublet.

Clearly you're just sexist against my having two penises and you only having one.

That's sexism, right? That's how it works? Disliking the other genders and mocking them because they're different? Cooties and shit?

[BitVyper]

Hey, thanks for telling me what will or will not offend me. I really appreciate that. Can you tell me what I want for dinner next? I'm pretty hungry.

Hey, thanks for dodging my point by being offended! (Plus I'm covered 'cause I said "pretty sure")

The problem is that male sexuality is something that can be massively exploited without us even thinking about it while female sexuality is so shameful (or sacred, if "shameful" makes you uneasy) that we're hypersensitive to it. There's a middle path in here somewhere.

Imagine if 300 had an all-female cast of soldiers in similar costumes. Try to get THAT out in mainstream theatres. I would bet that you probably know a woman who saw 300 for the oiled up near-nude men. Fanservice applies to both genders.

I'd like to see more games like Bayonetta just for this reason (although to be fair, I'm still basing my opinion of Bayonetta on Youtubes because I haven't actually bought a game in two years).

[Archbio]

I'm pretty sure everyone would be exactly as offended if Aya had a heart pattern on her underwear and slightly more cartoonish proportions.

No, I don't think that's true at all.

But hey, there's obviously some equivocation going on with the word "cartoonish" there. If by "cartoonish proportions" what is meant is "giant breasts" then it's hardly the equivalent.

Hell, bishoujo type characters get played for laughs all the time, and it still gets called sexist fanservice. Even when they're basically parodying the entire concept of bishoujo.

It's pretty easy to be exploitative while giving the appearance of parodying exploitation. And it's not like playing something for laughs and playing it for exploitation are mutually exclusive.

Edit: Hee, he... Nublet.

[Krylo]

But the cartoonish Ghosts And Goblins guy was cartoonish in a way that exemplified his masculine aspects: cartoonishly huge biceps, chests, etc. And while his face was definitely cartoony, it wasn't ugly, either.

The female equivalent would end up having large, if not huge breasts, and probably be blonde, and kind of doofy looking.

And giving her hearts (or some masculineish symbolism) on her underwear wouldn't fix it.

You'd have to make her cartoonish AND unattractive to play it for laughs without people also taking it as being sexualized, and at that point you're nowhere near what they did with the Ghosts and Goblins dude.

Which, when presented on PS2 (http://www.gamershell.com/static/screenshots/4876/93745_full.jpg) was basically PE:3 with a dude.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

And that's all you gotta do to change this game from sexist to sexawesome.


But see, that's my point. Same mechanic, but it's comedic if it's a male and sexist pandering if it's a female. That's the mentality from production to consumption. Male nudity == funny, female nudity == sexy. Hell, even if this was done as sexy male nudity, how much you wanna bet this wouldn't be an issue? And if it were done as comedic female nudity, how much you wanna bet it would still be viewed as sexist pandering?
Because we as a society grew up with the belief that a naked women equals sexy. the only way to pull off a ghost n goblins with a female is to make her ugly, very ugly.

Because just about every story that's tried this with a female has failed to get this result.

Let's face it, it's hard working with a female character as oppose to a male. There's just too many things you just can't do with a female character that you can do with a male.

[Nikose Tyris]

Let's face it, it's hard working with a female character as oppose to a male. There's just too many things you just can't do with a female character that you can do with a male.

That statement is sexist every way you spin it. Every time you argue "You can't do THAT with a woman because it's sexist, you need to have the male character do that" is a sexist arguement. Androcentrism with Gynophobia is probably the better terms to use, aka "This topic revolves around males opinions and women are scary", but only if Gynophobia can be used to mean "Fear of women responding to our actions as sexist". In the same way as your everyday white dude going "Aw shit if I cut this black guy off in traffic, is that racist?" same shit, different channel.

[Kim]

The problem is that male sexuality is something that can be massively exploited without us even thinking about it while female sexuality is so shameful (or sacred, if "shameful" makes you uneasy) that we're hypersensitive to it. Imagine if 300 had an all-female cast of soldiers in similar costumes. Try to get THAT out in mainstream theatres. I would bet that you probably know a woman who saw 300 for the oiled up near-nude men. Fanservice applies to both genders.

1. I have in fact complained about the idealized male stereotype and how it plagues modern entertainment. That is a thing I've done.

2. Call me back when video games have jiggle physics for a dude's junk, or it bulges out to an absurd, unrealistic degree, complete with panning, zoomed in crotch-shots while the character is talking.

3. I do not, in fact, know a woman who went to 300 to see oiled-up naked dudes.

[Nikose Tyris]

3. I do not, in fact, know a woman who went to 300 to see oiled-up naked dudes.

Uh, I do. I know many women who did that. I know women who were removed from the theatre for, uh. Stuff.

Also, Androcentrism covers why 1 happens and 2 doesn't.

[Krylo]

Well there's that and the fact that chicks don't go around staring at a dudes' junks.

It'd show their chests and stomachs, which would be mostly exposed, or their masculine thighs, or their biceps, or whatever else. Not their junks.

Maybe their ass.

I'm sure this is in large part to the fact that, speedos aside, there's not much clothing that really accentuates a dude's junk, nor is there any good way to make clothing that does without being, literally, painful to wear.

[Archbio]

But the cartoonish Ghosts And Goblins guy was cartoonish in a way that exemplified his masculine aspects: cartoonishly huge biceps, chests, etc. And while his face was definitely cartoony, it wasn't ugly, either.

The female equivalent would end up having large, if not huge breasts, and probably be blonde, and kind of doofy looking.

That just doesn't follow for me.

Attributable as being "masculine" in some vague way = sexual? I don't think so. If you're giving a character in an adventure game huge breasts you're going out of your way to sexualize it in a way that finds no equivalent in giving a male character in an adventure game visible muscles.

Which is because it's an adventure game. Not because they wanted to showcase a parody of peripheric sexual characteristics.* Huge breasts kind of come out of nowhere in that process.

Not to mention blond hair and doofy looks. What the hell?

Well there's that and the fact that chicks don't go around staring at a dudes' junks.

I wouldn't generalize too quickly on that front. Pun unintended.

*Also in the original game (I didn't know there was more than one before this thread) it might have been because of limited technical means.

[Kim]

I have seen zoomed in ass-shots during serious conversation with a female character. Maybe I missed some niche genre of games replete with male ass shots, but I haven't seen any serious conversation with a male character where the camera was zoomed in on their manly torso or ass while they were talking.

[Krylo]

The only 'unattractive' thing about the Ghost's and Goblins guy (heretofore referred to as Maximo) was his doofy face.

And large muscular men are one of the two idealized masculine forms. The other one being androgynous pretty boy.

The equivalent female idealized form is the large breasted blonde.

Maximo wasn't an unattractive character, he was an attractive guy that SHOULD have been sexualized, and would have been if our society was a little different. There was nothing unattractive about him, except maybe his largish feet?

Drawing a woman in the same way and having the same thing happen when she got hit wouldn't be seen as funny. It'd be seen as sexual.

UNLESS you went out of the way to make her ugly.

WHICH would be entirely the opposite of what they did with Maximo.

[RobinStarwing]

Actually, Game Informer did cover the whole idea of why female main characters are rare in gaming. It's for the exact reasons stated by Kyanbu.

Is it sexist? Hell yes!

Is it fair? Hell no!

Is it the way things are? Yeah, unfortunately.

Why? Gaming may get more girls these days but it is still mostly us guys out there playing. That sucks and means that we get to see stuff like this in our games.

Do I want that as a man? No, not really. My ideal female lead would be a gal like Lina Inverse from Slayers or Hotaru Tomoe from Sailor Moon. I look at them and see an inner strength and find that attractive as well as the insecurities.. Hell, Usagi Tsukino from the Sailor Moon series is a good example of an ideal for the same reasons. And nobody can accuse the manga for SM (original runs, not the re-edits for PGSM) or Slayers for trying to capitalize on Lina's body form.

In gaming, I'd like to see more gals like Lina, Hotaru, and Usagi. The gals who don't need looks to attract a fanbase both male and female. They do it by personality and their story.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

That statement is sexist every way you spin it. Every time you argue "You can't do THAT with a woman because it's sexist, you need to have the male character do that" is a sexist arguement. Androcentrism with Gynophobia is probably the better terms to use, aka "This topic revolves around males opinions and women are scary", but only if Gynophobia can be used to mean "Fear of women responding to our actions as sexist". In the same way as your everyday white dude going "Aw shit if I cut this black guy off in traffic, is that racist?" same shit, different channel.
Exactly, it's like you can't win either way.

It's the number one thing that hurts my works and my views on other works. I normal chose to just completely ignore sexual content. It's how I can almost sit through Queen's Blade. ALMOST.

[Kim]

And nobody can accuse the manga for SM (original runs, not the re-edits for PGSM) or Slayers for trying to capitalize on Lina's body form.

Is this the same Slayers that had a large-breasted purple haired girl with her clothing riding up her ass, and took every opportunity it could to make a joke about HUR HUR LINA'S TITS ARE TINY?

[Archbio]

Masculine = muscular (indiscriminately) = not unattractive = undetailed (except for that beard in the older games?) == hyper-feminine = HUGE BOOBS = blond hair = explicity attractive woman in a parodic cliché sense?

UNLESS you went out of the way to make her ugly.

WHICH would be entirely the opposite of what they did with Maximo.

No, actually, the total opposite of not going out of one's way to make a character unattractive (which is how you describe Maximo: as not unattractive) is not going out of one's way to make a character unattractive. To me, that doesn't equal to: going out of one's way to try and identify a character with beauty and sex.

Something's awry there.

It seems that I've reached the point where I must step away from the computer to avoid doing something regrettable.

[RobinStarwing]

Is this the same Slayers that had a large-breasted purple haired girl with her clothing riding up her ass, and took every opportunity it could to make a joke about HUR HUR LINA'S TITS ARE TINY?

That is at least one of the movies and the manga which detail's Lina's adventures before the first anime series. Naga The Serpant is actually satire of the exact type of stuff we are talking about here.

[Krylo]

muscular (indiscriminately) = not unattractive

Actually, muscular equals attractive, not just not unattractive. At least by the same thought process that says, holy shit huge tits are awesome 110% of the time.

Edit: To clarify, the guy wasn't just "Hey, let's put some muscles on him!" It was wide chest, narrow waist, big feet (WINK WINK, NUDGE NUDGE), large biceps, big sword (WINK WINK SOME MORE), kind of funny face, and a goofy name.

He was an idealized concept of male attractiveness in a cartoonish form. Doing the same thing to a woman, welp.

[Nikose Tyris]

Exactly, it's like you can't win either way.

Sure you can. Watch this-

"I don't care if it's sexist, if it's racist, or if it's going to make a group of people feel insulted and/or like less of a person, so long as it's provided in a format that's entertaining."

Either everything is tragic, evil and a malignment of a person/group/organization, or it's all hilarious. It's too much work to be in the middle.

And no, it doesn't carry over into hate crimes.

(An aside, holy shit I took a break from looking at the art you post, and all of a sudden you don't suck anymore, what the hell? Back in my day once you were terrible, by golly you STAYED terrible, stop being good at shit.)

[Archbio]

Krylo,

As for "Maximo" being buff: he's a knight in an adventure game. In at least two (the oldest?) games he also had that goofy, pointy beard. He was an older, grizzled knight in an adventure game. He wasn't conceived as a paragon of sex-appeal. He evolved towards being blander, less of a specific type. That's as much an "ideal of masculine beauty" as Ben Affleck's face is: that is to say not at all.

What they did do was just put muscles (as much as the period's graphics would allow) and a big sword on him because he's slaying fucking monsters. The other games seem to just have been following suit.

A big sword is phallic? That's hilarious. What would this "female equivalent character" have in place of a sword, since a sword is "masculine?" A featherduster?* What kind of weapon is shaped like a vagina? Help me out here.

*About as useful in slaying monsters as giant breasts.

[RobinStarwing]

Krylo,

As for "Maximo" being buff: he's a knight in an adventure game. In at least two (the oldest?) games he also had that goofy, pointy beard. He was an older, grizzled knight in an adventure game. He wasn't conceived as a paragon of sex-appeal. He evolved towards being blander, less of a specific type. That's as much an "ideal of masculine beauty" as Ben Affleck's face is: that is to say not at all.

What they did do was just put muscles (as much as the period's graphics would allow) and a big sword on him because he's slaying fucking monsters. The other games seem to just have been following suit.

A big sword is phallic? That's hilarious. What would this "female equivalent character" have in place of a sword, since a sword is "masculine?" A featherduster?* What kind of weapon is shaped like a vagina? Help me out here.

*About as useful in slaying monsters as giant breasts.

The Whip as the Serpent has always been attributed to the feminine in Spirituality and Shamanism due to it's connection to the Earth and Water, which are feminine elements.

Failing that, the Sword in a woman's hands would represent the Yin Yang of existence; There is always a little of one in the other.

[Krylo]

The V shaped male body of large defined chest and shoulders, and trim, but muscular, hips and waist being useful for killing things with a large sword doesn't alter the fact that it's one of the two idealized male body forms.

The point also isn't that Maximo wasn't bland, or that he was super attractive.

The point is that if you took a woman, gave her an hourglass figure, and drew her in a cartoony way with a silly bland face and bland features, and then made her clothes pop off to reveal a pair of grandma panties with hearts on them?

It'd still be seen as sexual instead of funny. Even though she'd never stand up to 'poster girls' like Katsumi or whatever other thing the kids are into these days.

Edit: Hell, even if you abandoned the standards of female beauty and gave her huge arms, that would only serve to sexualize her MORE to the niche crowd that dig on 'amazon' women.

[Archbio]

Failing that, the Sword in a woman's hands would represent the Yin Yang of existence; There is always a little of one in the other.

A sword is also a sharp instrument that cuts stuff. To put my point another way. Associating an element or characteristic to the masculine in an ideific (ideal?) way to the masculine in order to exclude these elements or characteristics from the feminine is kind of rotten.

But seriously the whip thing is good. It's a great serious answer to a non-serious question.

The point is that if you took a woman, gave her an hourglass figure, and drew her in a cartoony way with a silly bland face and bland features, and then made her clothes pop off to reveal a pair of grandma panties with hearts on them?

That's kind of the rub.

This whole, not overt, "female characters are really incongruous in adventure games" thing is really deeply ingrained.

[Kim]

It'd still be seen as sexual instead of funny.I really don't think so. Maybe by some people, but I'm here throwing a fit because of Parasite Eve, and I would honestly laugh at it. I think it's the whole idea of puffed out grandma panties that makes it work for me.

http://i54.tinypic.com/29wmrn7.jpg

These are never not hilarious. I mean, especially if they're like super-poofy and shit.

[Archbio]

Edit: But NonCon, even if you gave her super-poofy underwear, that would only serve to sexualize her MORE to the niche crowd that dig on 'old timey wardrobe' women.

[Krylo]

Edit: But NonCon, even if you gave her super-poofy underwear, that would only serve to sexualize her MORE to the niche crowd that dig on 'old timey wardrobe' women.

Of course it would also do nothing to reduce the sexualization in almost everybody else.

[Azisien]

2. Call me back when video games have jiggle physics for a dude's junk, or it bulges out to an absurd, unrealistic degree, complete with panning, zoomed in crotch-shots while the character is talking.

Such a game would be amazing. I hope Mass Effect 3 does this on Wrex's crotch or something.

[Krylo]

Such a game would be amazing. I hope Mass Effect 3 does this on Wrex's crotch or something.

Wrex and Garrus probably have like, exoskeletons on them, or they're inside the body most of the time or something.

Jacob's though. That should totally have jiggle physics.

[Kim]

I think we're getting into somewhere that's more or less irrelevant the main topic. Even if people would freak out at comedic fanservice, something I'm not sure they would do*, that doesn't change whether or not this is an example of unnecessary fanservice, and whether or not that is a bad thing. It seems a weak attempt at trying to discredit the opposition, from my perspective.

On-topic: Krylo makes a good point as to why the clothes would take damage, but not as much damage reflected on her body. Still, I think there are plenty of ways of doing this that would work better visually and still use the basic idea. Just because the clothes take damage doesn't mean they have to fall off. You could simply have her clothes become tattered and torn but still be there, and have both her and her clothes get increasingly bloody. Because the clothes are still there, just damaged and bloody, you can actually have a lot of implied body damage without it being too graphic, provided that's a concern. It's less fanservicy, and I think accomplishes the alleged reason for the design choice better than what they're doing.

As for the allowed sexiness of men, I've complained about the "male ideal" before, and I know plenty of other people who would agree with me on this subject matter who also complain about the sexualized male in fiction. The plural of anecdote is not data, I know. However, if Bit and Nik are going to use anecdotal evidence to support their "a bunch of girls went to see 300 to see naked men" claim, I don't think there's anything wrong with the anecdotal claim that there are plenty of people who hate that sort of thing and hate this sort of thing.

Last, I mean, I explained why this specific instance bothers me a lot more than other recent examples. It's fanservice in a series that is recent to my memory, wherein I enjoyed both the game and the female protagonist in it, and I am concerned about the mindset this reflects on the part of the staff and how that will affect the writing. Instead of addressing whether or not I am right about this, or whether or not it appears to be fanservice in this instance, POS and the people who agree with him seem to be running to defend sexism in games on the basis that "sexism is okay since I wouldn't be offended if it was sexist towards men." Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but that's the way it looks like to me, and seems a really weak argument to make. Even if games are as bad about sexism towards men as you claim, which I really don't think it is, that still doesn't justify sexism towards women.

*Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei had comedic, satirical fanservice. This was executed well and perfectly fine, at least during the first season. Not so much during later seasons.

[Krylo]

I wasn't defending this game by saying you wouldn't be offended, so much as I was having a discussion about the double standard between the male and female body in society vis a vis comedy vs sexuality in general (I've also heard some female comedians complain that they have to try to 'ugly themselves up' to be presented as comedians in interviews and stand up routines, for instance, but comedians always have to be taken with a pretty big grain of salt).

If I was really trying to defend this game I would have drawn more comparisons between Aya Brea and Maximo instead of using what I'd guess the female equivalent of his cartoonyish would be.

In other words, your first paragraph about being irrelevant to the main topic (assuming the main topic is sexism in Parasite Eve instead of Sexism in Video Games/Society in General) is pretty much spot on.

ALSO: You're probably right that there are plenty of other ways to do the damage, and you're definitely right in that they are doing it for the sexuality.

I just felt like being a little contrary by pointing out the damage wasn't really that out there all things considered.

Tangentially: Did anyone play the second one and was it any good? I didn't even know they made sequels, but I really loved the first one.

[Amake]

A big sword is phallic?
Yes, it is. And the female equalient would be a big gaping sword sheath. The Romans had that figured out.

[Kim]

I wasn't defending this game by saying you wouldn't be offended, so much as I was having a discussion about the double standard between the male and female body in society vis a vis comedy vs sexuality in general

Yeah, you didn't seem to be to be making that argument, at least less so than others, and I hope it didn't come off as being directed specifically towards you. You're certainly right about the double standard society has about female sexuality, sex drive, etc.

(I've also heard some female comedians complain that they have to try to 'ugly themselves up' to be presented as comedians in interviews and stand up routines, for instance, but comedians always have to be taken with a pretty big grain of salt).Huh. That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that the case.

Tangentially: Did anyone play the second one and was it any good? I didn't even know they made sequels, but I really loved the first one.I hear the second one is closer to thirty hours and has combat more like traditional survival horror games. I don't have a problem with thirty hour games, but I am a bit concerned that it'll feel needlessly stretched out. Also, making it more like traditional survival horror sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. I mean, it's supposedly still a good game, but I can't help but hear those things and be a bit skeptical of it.

[Archbio]

And the female equalient would be a big gaping sword sheath.

King Arthur had a magical sword sheath.

Just saying.

[Nique]

Debatable, but relevant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze#The_Male_Gaze_and_Feminist_theory) article.

I'm sure that there is an argument to be made that seeing vague representations of 'people' in only a sexual light is normal and generally ok. Which might excuse us 'fan-service is the point' in our media to a degree (to what degree, in what circumstances, is another topic). But as it is our society is still male dominated in so very many wrong ways and the tattered clothing in this game is arguably exploitative in that you're 'rewarded' for allowing her to be hurt, which dehumanizes the character. This isn't a DOA girl... this is the main character with a deep(ish) back story, and they are titillating you, not with the character's own willful sexuality (which could still be sexist but probably less so and women also like sex so whatevs) but with her suffering.


tl;dr - sexuality in games/media is ok, exploitative tripe is distasteful, at least.

[POS Industries]

Instead of addressing whether or not I am right about this, or whether or not it appears to be fanservice in this instance, POS and the people who agree with him seem to be running to defend sexism in games on the basis that "sexism is okay since I wouldn't be offended if it was sexist towards men." Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but that's the way it looks like to me, and seems a really weak argument to make.
Well, I was about to clarify that I totally agreed with you about it being cheap sexist pandering fanservice about four and a half hours ago but apparently my cable got completely knocked out for a bit until just now. It really, really is, and it's a damn shame. Nobody here is disputing that. At all.

The point I and others are trying to make is that there is also this massive-ass double standard in regard to this sort of thing where, if it had been a male protagonist, we'd all be having a laugh at the silly naked man running around the screen fighting evil in his skivvies. That is, in no way, disagreeing with your beef with the game. It is simply noting another aspect of the thing you're angry about.

This is in no way a thing where it's okay for you to be making ad hominem attacks on people making this argument that they're "running to defend sexism," declare that someone is trolling you for presenting a point of view that doesn't exactly line up with yours, or act like you're being personally attacked over this when you're not.

I'm not gonna get all moderatory over it since, shit dawg, you can be a dick to me as much as you feels, but I would strongly suggest as a forum member that, when you start getting all mad about something like you're doing here, you take some time out, cool off, and not behave this way on these forums to anyone else.

Debatable, but relevant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze#The_Male_Gaze_and_Feminist_theory) article.

I'm sure that there is an argument to be made that seeing vague representations of 'people' in only a sexual light is normal and generally ok. Which might excuse us 'fan-service is the point' in our media to a degree (to what degree, in what circumstances, is another topic). But as it is our society is still male dominated in so very many wrong ways and the tattered clothing in this game is arguably exploitative in that you're 'rewarded' for allowing her to be hurt, which dehumanizes the character. This isn't a DOA girl... this is the main character with a deep(ish) back story, and they are titillating you, not with the character's own willful sexuality (which could still be sexist but probably less so and women also like sex so whatevs) but with her suffering.
This is a very excellent point and a disturbing issue with the nature of the game itself.

[Kim]

The point I and others are trying to make is that there is also this massive-ass double standard in regard to this sort of thing where, if it had been a male protagonist, we'd all be having a laugh at the silly naked man running around the screen fighting evil in his skivvies. That is, in no way, disagreeing with your beef with the game. It is simply noting another aspect of the thing you're angry about.

Yes, but it was done in a way that seemed incredibly dismissive of the viewpoint not your own.

We must, as a society, continue to rage over boobs but find male nudity hilarious!

I look at that, and the most obvious interpretation is that you're accusing me of holding a double-standard, and being dismissive of the offense I feel towards this. "NonCon's just raging over boobs. He wouldn't be if it was a male character." The whole "Well you wouldn't freak out if it was a guy" argument is something people frequently do use to defend sexism in games. It's an actual argument people make, and I generally don't look for what else someone might mean by their post. Unfortunately, speaking entirely via text some things are inevitably lost in translation.

That may not have been what you meant, but I noticed this thread got slapped with a Seil tag. I don't recall doing that, and that seems like a thing I'd recall doing, especially since I really don't know why I'd put a Seil tag on this thread. Maybe I mis-clicked or did it in a drunken stupor. Maybe some moderator did it because they were tired of having to attach thread tags to shit. Still, I see that, and then I see what appears to be you being dismissive towards my attitude, and I'm going to interpret that Seil tag as you trying to passively antagonize me with your moderator powers. This also seems in line, from my point of view, with something you would do if you thought I was overreacting to something offensive in pop culture. After that point, I'm generally not going to be too interested in treating what you say with respect, because it doesn't seem like you're doing that for me.

It was unfair of me to jump to conclusions, and to assume you were responsible for the Seil tag, and for that I apologize. (Though the latter kinda ties into this whole "What one moderator does all the moderators will be blamed for" thing that's another basket of eggs entirely) Even if I was right, I shouldn't have behaved that way, because that only aggravates the situation.

[POS Industries]

For what it's worth, the Seil tag wasn't me.

And, dude, if I'm going to personally insult you, I'm going to fucking personally insult you by name. I will quote your post, bold the things I find stupid about it, slap on a picture of Worf or something, and then call you a fuckwit and laugh and laugh and laugh. That's how I do these things.

If I haven't done that, then I'm not actually attacking you or your viewpoint.

[Kim]

Given your recent post, I suspected as much.

[Yumil]

I've read the whole thread, but here's another example of if they were woman, this wouldn't be funny, but exploitive. In Shadow Hearts 2, you have to collect 10 "stud" cards (http://shadowhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Stud_Cards) to give to this one shop keeper to unlock dresses for one of the characters doll/puppet. Notice how all the men are muscular:O

If they used playboys, that wouldn't be funny, it'd be sexist*cough Mafia 2 cough,* but collectible cards with naked men with strategically placed items to cover their junk is fine and hilarious.

[akaSM]

This reminds me of something I read about some time ago. People are afraid of things because they're somewhat "vulgar" or "sacred" or whatever. There was a time when you couldn't show the bowl (I think that's what it's called) of the toilet in TV, there was even an ad for some product that had to be used in the bowl so, since the bowl couldn't be shown on TV, guess what they did? They had a little guy in a boat in the toilet's water tank talking about stuff. Yeah, showing a toilet was bad some time ago, but today? They even show them around 3pm here, and people usually eat around that time. Basically, what I mean is that people are afraid of certain things because they haven't seen them that often. Just like girls in pants some time ago, "bad words" (e.g. Penis vs junk), and in this case, the female body. We just don't see as much female torso nudity outside of a "I'd hit that" context, while male nudity can be both sexual and casual. If you see a topless guy you might think "that looks nice" or "oh, a guy", while, if you see a topless girl you'll think either "I'd hit that" or "get some clothes on!". Maybe people will lose the fear of the female body over time, but until that time comes, we'll have to deal with stuff like this topic :/
. Also, they'd better add some justification to the whole nakedness part, in ghosts and goblins you had the "you get an armor and some benefits" part. You had an extra hit so you would last longer, and even an armor specific weapon upgrade. I'm not against nudity or anything, but adding it for the heck of it... I just hate that...stupid twilight movies...

TL;DR: people need to see more nekkid women to get used to them

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The only way to solve this is just to make all videogame characters nude.

[greed]

This reminds me of something I read about some time ago. People are afraid of things because they're somewhat "vulgar" or "sacred" or whatever. There was a time when you couldn't show the bowl (I think that's what it's called) of the toilet in TV, there was even an ad for some product that had to be used in the bowl so, since the bowl couldn't be shown on TV, guess what they did? They had a little guy in a boat in the toilet's water tank talking about stuff. Yeah, showing a toilet was bad some time ago, but today? They even show them around 3pm here, and people usually eat around that time. Basically, what I mean is that people are afraid of certain things because they haven't seen them that often. Just like girls in pants some time ago, "bad words" (e.g. Penis vs junk), and in this case, the female body. We just don't see as much female torso nudity outside of a "I'd hit that" context, while male nudity can be both sexual and casual. If you see a topless guy you might think "that looks nice" or "oh, a guy", while, if you see a topless girl you'll think either "I'd hit that" or "get some clothes on!". Maybe people will lose the fear of the female body over time, but until that time comes, we'll have to deal with stuff like this topic :/
. Also, they'd better add some justification to the whole nakedness part, in ghosts and goblins you had the "you get an armor and some benefits" part. You had an extra hit so you would last longer, and even an armor specific weapon upgrade. I'm not against nudity or anything, but adding it for the heck of it... I just hate that...stupid twilight movies...

TL;DR: people need to see more nekkid women to get used to them

Aka. Read the goddamn rest of the thread before you post, for fuck's sake Kyanbu pulled the same fuck up last page. This ain't a prudishness thing, it's a sexism thing. Did you hear me complaining about Heavy Rain's full frontal nudity? Or Mass Effect's side nudity? Hell you ever hear me complain about Soul Calibur or any one of a dozen fighting games skimpy costumes? Nope? I'm not against nudity or even fanservice, as long as the level of it fits the game it goes in and it ain't creepily extreme and weird (hello there Star Ocean 4). Fighting games and action games are meant to be over the top spectacles so skimpy costumes are okay, Mass Effect used it as part of a romance and Heavy Rain had casual nudity because and treated it with the mature nonchalance you're advocating and I agree with.


The issue here(at least for me, NonCon seems to be more against fanservice in general) is that a game from a series that formerly had a low level of fanservice if any, let alone creepy over the top pseudo S&M fanservice is adding immature exploitative bullshit to appeal to pathetic neckbearded creeps. Which is demeaning to women and insulting to men. And infuriating to someone like NonCon who loved the first installment that didn't feel the need to pull this kind of bullshit.

Of course we're all missing the most worst thing. Motomu Toriyama is making another game, instead of dying from massive rectal bleeding after getting a horse to sodomise him, like he would in any merciful universe. This is the man responsible for FFX-2 and FFXIII, the game is going to be decently playable at best(assuming he's on his FFX-2 game, if he's on his FFXIII game it's going to be unplayable) and the story and writing are going to insult our intelligence even more than the fanservice will.

[RobinStarwing]

One moment....



Of course we're all missing the most worst thing. Motomu Toriyama is making another game, instead of dying from massive rectal bleeding after getting a horse to sodomise him, like he would in any merciful universe. This is the man responsible for FFX-2 and FFXIII, the game is going to be decently playable at best(assuming he's on his FFX-2 game, if he's on his FFXIII game it's going to be unplayable) and the story and writing are going to insult our intelligence even more than the fanservice will.



I always liked FFX-2 because it was an easy story that didn't take itself seriously in my view. If you are going to do a Fanservice, that is what it should be. A story that doesn't take itself seriously and you don't need a notebook to follow.

Parasite Eve was NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER...

...!!!!NEVER!!!!...

...meant to be a Fanservice game. The subject matter is too serious and it's a horror game for Goddess' sake!

[Fenris]

Maybe some moderator did it because they were tired of having to attach thread tags to shit.

It's this.

Start putting tags on your threads and I won't do it for you, just to clear things up.

(It was between "Seil" and "rep me!")

[Jagos]

Well, Parasite Eve was a book first so... Yeah.

[Nique]

I was gonna say I didn't think FFX-2 was really, like, sexual fanservice too much and seemed to be aimed at girls, but then I remembered the erotic backrub, and also the visit to the hotsprings... and ostensibly every guy on the crew of the Gulwings having constant nosebleeds.

[akaSM]

Aka. Read the goddamn rest of the thread before you post, for fuck's sake Kyanbu pulled the same fuck up last page. This ain't a prudishness thing, it's a sexism thing. Did you hear me complaining about Heavy Rain's full frontal nudity? Or Mass Effect's side nudity? Hell you ever hear me complain about Soul Calibur or any one of a dozen fighting games skimpy costumes? Nope? I'm not against nudity or even fanservice, as long as the level of it fits the game it goes in and it ain't creepily extreme and weird (hello there Star Ocean 4). Fighting games and action games are meant to be over the top spectacles so skimpy costumes are okay, Mass Effect used it as part of a romance and Heavy Rain had casual nudity because and treated it with the mature nonchalance you're advocating and I agree with.


Sorry, I didn't find any post by Kyanbu with the stuff I said, i.e. society being afraid to things that aren't usually seen, heard or whatever. I didn't even mention sexism in my post, yeah, this has to do with sexism but, IMHO, it's more a problem with the way society sees things, and not entirely sexism. Ok, want a videogame example for my post? Just look at Mortal Kombat and all the controversy it caused back then, now you see games with more violence and you don't see people complaining, people got "used" to violent videogames. Ok, there's an example for my post, but it doesn't involve anything about sexism, here's one. Pants, women couldn't just wear them some years ago just because...it wasn't something women could do. Yes, that's sexist, and yet women began to wear pants too, at first people looked at those women in a weird way, but over time, guess what? People got "used" to looking at women wearing pants.

In general, this kind of problems don't have ANYTHING to do with sexism, there are a lot of examples everywhere. Sexism just comes in play if the problem goes just for one gender.

Just in case, yes, I know the meaning of the word sexism and yes, this thread's topic has to do with sexism, but try to see the base problem (society being afraid of things not usually seen, heard, whatever) before trying to tell me "this HAS to do with sexism"

[Nique]

I didn't even mention sexism in my post, yeah, this has to do with sexism but, IMHO, it's more a problem with the way society sees things, and not entirely sexism.

Ok I really have no idea what you're trying to say here. Becuase it sounds like you're saying we'll just get use to pointless depictions of the harmful exploitation of women (or men) as a normal part of entertainment, eventually?

society being afraid of things not usually seen, heard, whatever

Counterpoint: Noncon loves nekkid people and he's up in arms about teh sexisms here. So I'm not sure how you're accounting for this in your assesment.

In general, this kind of problems don't have ANYTHING to do with sexism, there are a lot of examples everywhere. Sexism just comes in play if the problem goes just for one gender.


I mean... Look it just honestly seems that you're speaking from ignorance here or you're being incredibly unclear. I'm not sure if it's just a long day and my brain is fried but I'm not really understanding what exactly you think the 'problem' is.

[akaSM]

Sorry, I think I should be clearer.

First, about this game. If nudity will actually serve a purpose in the game, like having clothing protect you from specific hazards, and as it gets damaged, you become more vulnerable to said hazards, it's fine. But if it was added just because "nekkid women are sexy", seriously, just no.

About the "naked men are OK, but naked women aren't", it's sexist, yeah, but the problem is that "people are afraid of that which they don't see that often/haven't got used to", in this case, women with some nudity, just because that isn't common in everyday stuff like TV, compared to men with some nudity. By everyday stuff I mean things that you could find in a familiar environment or something similar.

And I'm completely against things like "hey, hurt me to see me naked", that's just wrong.

Finally, I'm not saying that people will get used to "pointless depictions of either gender as part of entertainment", just that, someday, maybe, people won't be afraid/offended by female nakedness as much as today

Again, sorry guys if I'm not being clear enough.

[Fifthfiend]

The point I and others are trying to make is that there is also this massive-ass double standard in regard to this sort of thing where, if it had been a male protagonist, we'd all be having a laugh at the silly naked man running around the screen fighting evil in his skivvies. That is, in no way, disagreeing with your beef with the game. It is simply noting another aspect of the thing you're angry about.



The next time you make the point that you are sincerely VERY CONCERNED about sexism against teh menz, you should probably try making it in a way that isn't completely indistinguishable from a troll derailing a discussion about actually meaningful sexism in games.

Like for example: exhibiting this concern anywhere else, ever, in any circumstances other than in the middle of someone else's ongoing discussion about sexism in games.

Protip: The sexist inequalities that create the situation where male nudity can be treated as harmless and funny is the result of sexism. Not, actually the result of people "raging over boobs", aka, people taking the time to identify and criticize sexism.

[Archbio]

The only way to solve this is just to make all videogame characters nude.

Like the proverbial thousand monkeys, I think you're finally on to something.

This is in no way a thing where it's okay for you to be making ad hominem attacks on people making this argument that they're "running to defend sexism," [...]

Incorrect or no, that assertion really doesn't seem like an ad hominem (or any kind of technical fallacy.) As I understand it, ad hominem isn't "saying stuff that makes you look bad." It's not "drawing conclusions that make you look bad," either.

[Redacted.]

Retroactive Edit (or Reted):

NonCon pretty much already addressed everything either of you just said and the issue has been resolved.

It's more of a case that I basically said the same thing NonCon said in a recent post in another, poorer choice of words, because I didn't read the last pages attentively enough. The redundancy has been expunged.

Also, I don't see any other posts addressing the question of "ad hominems" and typewriting monkeys, so I don't see how those parts were redundant.

The issue regarding monkeys is very much unresolved.

[POS Industries]

NonCon pretty much already addressed everything either of you just said and the issue has been resolved.

If there's anything else regarding sexism in videogames, double standards regarding sexism in our society, or Parasite Eve in general that y'all want to discuss, I think they're all great topics. This thread is hitting the ol' post limit, however, but I'm happy to keep it open if there's more on the matter to talk about.

[Arhra]

I have seen zoomed in ass-shots during serious conversation with a female character. Maybe I missed some niche genre of games replete with male ass shots, but I haven't seen any serious conversation with a male character where the camera was zoomed in on their manly torso or ass while they were talking.
METAL GEAR!?!

[Donomni]

I'm pretty certain that's the only game series that does that.

[The Wandering God]

Well Hideo did say he was concerned with what the ladies like...

I'm trying to find this image that has a series of pictures where Hideo is interviewed.

He says something along the lines of, "Many women didn't like Metal Gear Solid because they had trouble connecting to Snake because he was "old" and "gruff".

So when it came time for MGS2 to come around Hideo decided to make a character young girls could connect with.

Cue Raiden who is Totally Not Edward from Twilight. (Though indeed, MGS2 came first. Maybe Stephanie Meyer played it...)

[POS Industries]

Ehh, necrothread with a nice, fresh new one (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=39377) already active.

Closing time.