Didn't Pay The Fee? We Won't Fight Your Fires

[Loyal]

Tennessee House In Ashes After Homeowner Failed To Pay $75 Fee (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001)

Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground last week because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.

Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

"They could have been saved if they had put water on it, but they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC's Keith Olbermann.

The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond.

"We wasn't on their list," he said the operators told him.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he "forgot" to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee.

Cranick says he told the operator he would pay whatever is necessary to have the fire put out.

His offer wasn't accepted, he said.

The fire fee policy dates back 20 or so years.

"Anybody that's not inside the city limits of South Fulton, it's a service we offer. Either they accept it or they don't," said South Fulton Mayor David Crocker.

The fire department's decision to let the home burn was "incredibly irresponsible," said the president of an association representing firefighters.

"Professional, career firefighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up," Harold Schatisberger, International Association of Fire Fighters president, said in a statement. "They get in their trucks and go."

Firefighters did eventually show up, but only to fight the fire on the neighboring property, whose owner had paid the fee.

"They put water out on the fence line out here. They never said nothing to me. Never acknowledged. They stood out here and watched it burn," Cranick said.

South Fulton's mayor said that the fire department can't let homeowners pay the fee on the spot, because the only people who would pay would be those whose homes are on fire.

Cranick, who is now living in a trailer on his property, says his insurance policy will help cover some of his lost home.

"Insurance is going to pay for what money I had on the policy, looks like. But like everything else, I didn't have enough."
I'm not sure I even know what to say to this atrocity, except that firefighting is the stupidest fucking thing you could ever apply a pay service to. Who came up with this idea!?

[Fifthfiend]

Libertopia.

EDIT: Galt's Gulch, Tennessee

[Kim]

New idea! These fuckers can have their "capitalist utopia" if I get to go after every one of them with a crowbar who forgot to pay their annual "don't get beaten with a crowbar" membership fee.

(Edited in response to below)

[Mannix]

New idea! These fuckers can have their "capitalist utopia" if I get to go after every one of them with a crowbar who forgot to pay their annual "don't get beaten with a crowbar" tax.

Taxes are illegal in libertopia. You'd better make that a membership fee.

[Amake]

Didn't the Founding Fathers invent firefighting as a profession? So if the US of A are the first to privatize the fire department. . .that's a bit worrying.

My friend's uncle is a part-time firefighter, to spin some personal interest on this. They're basically the most straightforward selfless straight-up heroes on the planet. When they're not extorting people for protection, that is.

Is it just me who pictures this fire department a lot like the one in Farenheit 451?

[Loyal]

Didn't the Founding Fathers invent firefighting as a profession?Ben Franklin I think, yeah.

I believe this is an isolated, unusual case - it's the first I've heard of firefighting as a business. But if it's been going on for 20 years...

[Fifthfiend]

Didn't the Founding Fathers invent firefighting as a profession? So if the US of A are the first to privatize the fire department. . .that's a bit worrying.

IIRC fire departments started out as private agencies, and over time were converted into public agencies specifically because of shit like this.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

IIRC fire departments started out as private agencies, and over time were converted into public agencies specifically because of shit like this.

If I remember Gangs of New York right, the fire departments used to have outright brawls over who got to put out what fire.

[Hatake Kakashi]

My feelings are divided on the issue.

I live in the city... well, as close to anything resembling as city as we have out here in BFE. But yeah, we pay the city's taxes, and the city provides services such as law enforcement, firefighting, emergency medical care and the like. Perhaps because I pay said taxes, I could be a bit spoiled to be expectant of these services: my taxes help pay the salaries of those providing the service. So at first, as I read the article, I was somewhat appalled.

Then I took a closer look. The landowners in question do not appear to be within the city's jurisdiction, so they don't pay the taxes. Humanitarian conscience aside, the landowners in that area are basically being asked to pay an insurance or damage-control price for said services. Ignoring any possible degrees of guaranteed protection, if there are any to be considered, the landowner in question was basically expecting the fire department to provide their services on the spot. Could they have? Absolutely. Did they have the means? Again, yes. But, even though it means someone is being an utter dick, they stood by on principle. If you think about it, you buy insurance for a service in anticipation of an event. You buy health insurance while you're healthy because nobody in their right mind is going to sell you decent insurance at any price when you've been diagnosed with cancer. You buy auto insurance while you've still got a car because nobody is going to volunteer to pay the damages on the spot when you rear-end another vehicle. While there are other things to consider, it ultimately boils down to a case of semantics: he didn't buy the insurance, so regardless of cost or what he would have paid at the time of crisis, they didn't provide the service as a matter of principle.

Lesson learned? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But I'm betting it cost quite a bit more than the $75 he was originally asked to pony up ahead of time.

[Ryanderman]

Guy was an idiot for not paying the $75 fee. The system is horrible, but it's the system, and he should have worked within it.

The optional $75 fee is stupid. It should be abolished, the fire departments' districts should be extended to cover all the rural areas, and they should be taxed accordingly.

Refusing the put out the fire over a $75 fee is stupid. If they absolutely must have an opt in fee based system, put out the guy's fire, then charge him $500 after. That'll up the incentive to buy in before hand.

This is actually helping to put health care in perspective for me. Must muse.

[Hatake Kakashi]

I do feel compassion for him, honestly. Regardless of fault, they could have had compassion for him and put the fire out, even if they socked him with a fee for it later. I think the thing we should take away from this is not necessarily a sense of "It's the fire dept's fault! They're stingy assholes!" or "It's the homeowner's fault! What a dumbass!" I think if anything, we should take the concept of being prepared whether we consider it to be our responsibility or not for situations like this, because unfortunately, the world is just that kind of fucked-up place where you can't necessarily depend on the kindness and generosity of your neighbor or strangers, simply because it's just not their problem.

I know it sounds harsh, and I wish I had a kinder way to put it, but that's the way it is.

[Wigmund]

Ben Franklin I think, yeah.

Not only did he create the first fire department: he also created public libraries, advocated public education, set up the first hospital in the US, created paper money, and also created the post office. Not to mention all the scientific and public advocacy work he did.

[Magus]

I do feel compassion for him, honestly. Regardless of fault, they could have had compassion for him and put the fire out, even if they socked him with a fee for it later. I think the thing we should take away from this is not necessarily a sense of "It's the fire dept's fault! They're stingy assholes!" or "It's the homeowner's fault! What a dumbass!" I think if anything, we should take the concept of being prepared whether we consider it to be our responsibility or not for situations like this, because unfortunately, the world is just that kind of fucked-up place where you can't necessarily depend on the kindness and generosity of your neighbor or strangers, simply because it's just not their problem.

I know it sounds harsh, and I wish I had a kinder way to put it, but that's the way it is.

No, they are cocksuckers. Bloodsucking cocksuckers. Firefighting is a long-standing and honored profession, to be filled with selfless people willing to sacrifice their lives if need be to save others. If someone in a fire company does not have this outlook, they should be fired. They do not belong in a fire company, they do not deserve the honor of being a firefighter.

They are not to stand idly by and watch someone's house burn down because they didn't pay a goddamn fee.

I want to hear what you have to say to this: what if the man's children were trapped in the house? Should the GODDAMN FUCKING FIREFIGHTERS STAND THERE AND LISTEN TO THEM BURN ALIVE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GET A GODDAMN FUCKING 75 DOLLAR FUCKING FEE? There is no principal to what they did, except one of unthinking selfishness and atrociousness. You should be angry as hell! We should all be angry as hell! Join me in anger, because rarely is it as damn righteous as this is.

Whoever set up this goddamn system is a bloodsucking cocksucker as well. Firefighting is a public service that extends to all citizens which should be covered via public taxes, not a yearly fee. If the state feels that rural citizens aren't contributing to their service costs, they should either find a way to tax them, such as by making the 75 dollar fee mandatory, create a different firefighting company, possibly volunteer, to serve rural residents, or put out the fires and then assess charges and/or fines.

Not watch somebody's house burn down. There's not a single fucking excuse for it. Putting out a fire better be their problem, or they had better find another fucking job, hopefully one that does not require a shred of humanity.

[Loyal]

I want to hear what you have to say to this: what if the man's children were trapped in the house? Should the GODDAMN FUCKING FIREFIGHTERS STAND THERE AND LISTEN TO THEM BURN ALIVE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GET A GODDAMN FUCKING 75 DOLLAR FUCKING FEE?There were four pets in that house while it burned. It's not the same, but I'm not entirely sure I'd put it past them.

The most galling part of the act is that they did show up at the house to keep the fire from spreading to other homes. They were there, they had their hoses at the ready. But they just stood there and watched.

[Magus]

Should've lied, should've said his infant nephew was trapped in there, visiting for the day. Caught them on camera watching the house burn down, if they are truly that inhuman.

It just makes me sick. I apologize if I was being too vociferous before, everybody.

EDIT: The most depressing thing is the son is facing assault charges for breaking the goddamn fire chief's nose afterwards.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Firefighting is a long-standing and honored profession, to be filled with selfless people willing to sacrifice their lives if need be to save others.

You'll find no argument from me here.

If someone in a fire company does not have this outlook, they should be fired. They do not belong in a fire company, they do not deserve the honor of being a firefighter.

Again, I agree with you, but there's one small problem: This is an ideal situation, and my point was that we do not live in an ideal world, as the article clearly shows.

They are not to stand idly by and watch someone's house burn down because they didn't pay a goddamn fee.

I want to hear what you have to say to this: what if the man's children were trapped in the house?

To some, pets might as well be children. But I digress.

Should the GODDAMN FUCKING FIREFIGHTERS STAND THERE AND LISTEN TO THEM BURN ALIVE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GET A GODDAMN FUCKING 75 DOLLAR FUCKING FEE?

Again, not to sound like an asshole, but them's the rules. Based on how they reacted even with the family pets being turned into the local barbecue of the evening, I wouldn't put it past them. Basically, we're looking at a situation where, even if the firefighters wanted to intervene (and the article doesn't really give a clear indication for or against that notion), they were under orders not to. It boils down to the one person who is pulling the strings. Ultimately it is he/she that would be facing the liability for any such catastrophes if there were any liabilities to be found. Should they stand there and let it burn? Basic humanitarian kindness and the general principles of Not-Being-A-Dick say they shouldn't. But that doesn't really apply to their way of thinking.

There is no principal to what they did, except one of unthinking selfishness and atrociousness.

Again, you're preaching to the choir.

You should be angry as hell! We should all be angry as hell! Join me in anger, because rarely is it as damn righteous as this is.

Here's where we differ in opinion. Frankly, yes, I feel sympathy for the guy. Sadness, even. Really, I do. To lose everything, it sucks, ya know? I've been there, done it, burned the t-shirt and crushed the commemorative mug. But not being a resident of that county, state, or city means that being angry will do nothing besides raise my blood pressure. What I will do is write to my congressman, mention this specific case, and ask some rather interesting questions such as why, if law enforcement can be county-driven to cover all municipalities, is this kind of situation allowed where an emergency service can be denied someone because someone holds a monopoly over an area and therefore can strong-arm the populace into basically paying a protection fee? In my state, that's how things are run: fire departments are covered by county jurisdiction instead of city municipalities so shit like this doesn't happen. It's a good standard, and I don't think it would hurt other states one iota to adopt systems like it.

Firefighting is a public service that extends to all citizens which should be covered via public taxes, not a yearly fee.

Apparently in those municipalities, the law hasn't been written to make that ideal apply.

If the state feels that rural citizens aren't contributing to their service costs, they should either find a way to tax them, such as by making the 75 dollar fee mandatory, create a different firefighting company, possibly volunteer, to serve rural residents, or put out the fires and then assess charges and/or fines.

I believe one of the stories on this case mentioned a petition going around to promote that very idea. The sad state of the world is simply that laws to protect people generally aren't thought up and written until someone gets fucked in a bad situation. Hindsight being 20/20.

I don't blame you one bit for feeling angry. It's a normal reaction, and I wouldn't dream of judging you for it. Unfortunately, I'm just looking at the facts... cold and heartless as they might be.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If the firemen put out that fire it would have been an act of outright socialism. I'm fairly certain it would lead to widespread revolt.
Ask yourself- what colour are firetrucks?

E: They should fight fires based upon who you voted for last.

[Nique]

The decision to NOT respond to a request for emergency aid was objectively and in every way a horrible one. If it was against the rules then the rules are also objectively horrible.

Seriously if the rules make you do something awful then you ignore the rules.

[Amake]

Over here, the actual cost for the fire department to answer a call is around 500 dollars. (I know this because I accidentally tripped a fire alarm once.) If you call a false alarm, you just get billed for that amount, end of story. Why didn't this happen here? What's the difference, if you're a number cruncher, between calling the fire department when there's no fire and calling them outside of their jurisdiction? Basically what Ryanderman said.

Heck, they could feel free to salt the bill when they got the guy over a barrel, his house being on fire and everything, if they really need to be evil. I'm sure he'd gladly have paid ten times that amount to get the firemen to do what they've the skills and equipment to do. Another reason whoever made this decision should commit ritual suicide to save face.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The decision to NOT respond to a request for emergency aid was objectively and in every way a horrible one. If it was against the rules then the rules are also objectively horrible.

Seriously if the rules make you do something awful then you ignore the rules.

But think of the tax increases that would incur. You'd have a riot.

[Toast]

I was struck with disbelief when I read this. My dad's been a firefighter for close to 25 years now. Heck, he's probably been to the fire station in question.

This is totally irresponsible on the part of the city, county, and the firefighters themselves.

Here's an interesting article presented to Obion County Comissioners dated March, 2008.

A presentation regarding the establishment and implementation of a county wide fire department (http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation% 20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf)

It's a really interesting read, but I'll pull out a few choice quotes.
On January 19, 1987, the Obion County Commission passed a resolution establishing an Obion County Fire Department, but no action was taken to implement the resolution.Therefore, Obion County has a county fire department on paper, but is unmanned,unfunded and not operational.

Purpose:
To formally establish a county-wide fire department which will provide quality fire protection and emergency response to all areas of Obion County in a timely manner with no subscription fees or requirements for response.

This scenario would add an amount to the county property tax
Records indicate that every .01 cent increase nets approx $42,000 in
revenue. .13 cent increase would equal-------> $546,000.00

So not only did someone lay out a plan for creating a county wide fire department that is actually operational, they even suggested several methods for funding it. Apparently, the county wasn't interested.


Ask yourself- what colour are firetrucks?
Most fire trucks may be red, another large portion may be yellow, but I've seen just about every color from black to mint green to pink.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

So not only did someone lay out a plan for creating a county wide fire department that is actually operational, they even suggested several methods for funding it. Apparently, the county wasn't interested.

Because people bitch when somehing bad happens but they don't want to pay to fund it. Someone probably brought it up and then everyone was like "Tax hike, wtf" and it ended here.


Most fire trucks may be red, another large portion may be yellow, but I've seen just about every color from black to mint green to pink.[/QUOTE]
I don't what kind of crazy shit goes on in your country but my picturebook tells me firetrucks are red.

[CABAL49]

Over here, the actual cost for the fire department to answer a call is around 500 dollars. (I know this because I accidentally tripped a fire alarm once.) If you call a false alarm, you just get billed for that amount, end of story. Why didn't this happen here? What's the difference, if you're a number cruncher, between calling the fire department when there's no fire and calling them outside of their jurisdiction? Basically what Ryanderman said.


Yeah this. The good old fashioned saying, you can't get money from a deadman. You can't make money off of property that no longer exists. From every aspect this was a terrible thing.

[Toast]

Because people bitch when somehing bad happens but they don't want to pay to fund it. Someone probably brought it up and then everyone was like "Tax hike, wtf" and it ended here.
I don't think you're wrong, but I wouldn't think a 13 cent increase in property taxes would be such a hard sell for better fire protection services.


I don't what kind of crazy shit goes on in your country but my picturebook tells me firetrucks are red.
Hate to break this to you, Smarty, but you were lied to as a child.

I've been on enough fire apparatus picture-taking road trips with my dad to know that the US has fire trucks of all colors. You may have to look for them, but they're there.

[Krylo]

I don't think you're wrong, but I wouldn't think a 13 cent increase in property taxes would be such a hard sell for better fire protection services. Your article didn't even say 13 cents.

It said .13 cents.

As in just over 1/10th of a cent.

[krogothwolf]

What I don't understand is couldn't they have charged him after the fact with an some "unfunded firefighting fee." They could have probably tripled the $75.

If this had spread because the firefighters didn't react to it and became an uncontrollable fire, who would have been at fault?

[Magus]

Yeah, they could have made him pay for the water supply, the fuel, the firefighters pay. All of which would have been cheaper than replacing his house, even with the amount of insurance he had on it, the difference between it and the cost of a new one will probably be staggering.

And seriously, if I was told by my fire chief to stand idly by because I'm not allowed to use firefighter's equipment on a fire, I would have taken off my uniform and started a bucket line at the very least using the man's water supply, soak the trailer with garden hoses, slap the grass with sacks, something to help him. They just stood there and watched. It seems like you'd have to be inhuman or hate the man or something to just stand there and do nothing.

[krogothwolf]

Well, it doesn't matter about insurance or not. Treasured Mementos, like baby photos, wedding pictures aren't replaceable, Pets aren't replaceable. No amount of insurance can cover that.

I just can't understand how they can't have a fine for it if they have to have the system.

It's like dog licensing, you don't have to pay it but if your dog does something and gets caught the fine is like 4 times the fee cost. They could do that easily enough. Give them a ticket for not paying the fee but having the firefighters fight a fire. That would be incentive to pay the fee if the fine is big enough.

The whole fee thing is stupid though :/

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Nah but you see, now nobody is goign to forget to pay thier fireman fee.

[Marc v4.0]

And seriously, if I was told by my fire chief to stand idly by because I'm not allowed to use firefighter's equipment on a fire, I would have taken off my uniform and started a bucket line at the very least using the man's water supply, soak the trailer with garden hoses, slap the grass with sacks, something to help him. They just stood there and watched. It seems like you'd have to be inhuman or hate the man or something to just stand there and do nothing.


A thousand times this. Yeah, you can say it's the system that's fucked up, the guy in charge who gave the orders not to help that's fucked up, the a-hole Mayor, whatever. What it really boils down to is they chose of their own free will, while not being physically restrained or threatened, to let everything this family had go up in smoke and fire.

That isn't a fucked up system.

That isn't a fucked up Boss.

That is straight, unfiltered just not doing the right thing, the thing you chose to do, the thing you put your own life at risk for all the time. I doubt they'd have a hard time getting work at another Station elsewhere, either. When the representing association looks at the practice in outright disgust and perversion of their entire existence, you aren't going to get black-listed for being the one to actually step up and make that shit right.

The fact that people can actually say they 'understand' why they just let it happen is a symptom of a massive problem with the entire human race.

edit: Honestly, saying "I understand why the firefighters didn't fight that fire over 75 dollars, and ruined that families life" is the same as saying "I understand why that Police Officer brutally beat that unarmed 75 year old women to death over a traffic violation".

[krogothwolf]

I know this sounds bad and all. But if you do this of your own free will and fuck things up worse, you are liable to be sued for shit that happened because you are no longer covered under the city. It is possible for that kind of stuff to happen which is why people try to not do things like that, they don't want to be sued. It's unlikely it'll happen but because there are some retards out there who sue over anything and everything, would you really be willing risk it?

[Marc v4.0]

I know this sounds bad and all. But if you do this of your own free will and fuck things up worse, you are liable to be sued for shit that happened because you are no longer covered under the city. It is possible for that kind of stuff to happen which is why people try to not do things like that, they don't want to be sued. It's unlikely it'll happen but because there are some retards out there who sue over anything and everything, would you really be willing risk it?

If a firefighter fucks something up, it usually results in death, theirs or the victims, and getting sued may be a painful process but seriously...

Either way, if it was your/a family member's entire life burning away, how much would you want someone to be worrying about getting sued cause they weren't a chickenshit?

[Kurosen]

IIRC [everything public] started out as private agencies, and over time were converted into public agencies specifically because of shit like this.
Always astonished by how every libertarian missed The Industrial Revolution and The Guilded Age in history class.

[Fifthfiend]

Humanitarian conscience aside

welp

Always astonished by how every libertarian missed The Industrial Revolution and The Guilded Age in history class.

TBH this actually doesn't astonish me since I personally never had that history covered in any way worth a fuck until college.

[krogothwolf]

If a firefighter fucks something up, it usually results in death, theirs or the victims, and getting sued may be a painful process but seriously...

Either way, if it was your/a family member's entire life burning away, how much would you want someone to be worrying about getting sued cause they weren't a chickenshit?

Yeah I know what it's like from that stand point but lets look at it from the firefighter who decided to tackle the fire out of uniform and when ordered not to, now that firefighter fucks up and either a) dies or b) someone else dies. His life could be effectively over if he causes the death of someone else. He could leave his family screwed because he is no longer covered under the life insurance policy he has because he did it on his own. I mean, I'm not really saying what they did is a great thing, but legal crap does hinder things with red tape and everything as well.

[Fifthfiend]

I'm really personally not gonna get into blaming the individual firefighters, it's asking a whole goddamn lot of people whose job is already to risk their lives for the safety of other people and their posessions, that they also feel obligated to go to heroic lengths to defy their employers to do so at risk of their livelihood and in violation of the law. I mean looking at Marc's metaphor up there, I'd say this is a long way from a situation wherein someone is actively inflicting violence and harm on another person.

It's still pretty terrible, but I'd say whoever came up with this system in the first place / was in whichever position of authority that they were responsible for perpetuating it was much, much more to blame.

I mean any time you come up with a system where you have to check where a person is on the Approved List before you stop their fucking house from burning down, you have come up with basically an inherently disgusting, morally bankrupt system.

And since Kakashe-Sama already mentioned it above, YEAH, PRETTY MUCH LIKE HEALTHCARE.

[Marc v4.0]

The metaphor was a comparison of two Public Servants absolutely failing to Serve the Public.

Wasn't trying to get them exactly the same, I'm not aware of police gross misconduct that involved showing up to the scene of an on-going crime just to make sure the other people on the block didn't get robbed cause you failed to pay your 75 dollar Police Insurance. Only the kind where they beat and/or kill unarmed people for daring to exist while they have authority and are in a bad mood.

[EVILNess]

Honestly, I think that whether these men fail as public servants is a much smaller issue than the fact that they fail as human beings.

They watched a man's house burn down over $75. His entire life, destroyed for $75. This shouldn't have been about $75.

I don't think I could in good conscience watch a man suffer like that and do nothing, even if there were consequences for myself. Having a man ask for my help and then me just watching while I hold all the equipment, training, and knowledge to help is just reprehensible, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that having an act like this on my soul would far outweigh any consequences I might suffer for helping someone in need.

[Fifthfiend]

The metaphor was a comparison of two Public Servants absolutely failing to Serve the Public.

Wasn't trying to get them exactly the same, I'm not aware of police gross misconduct that involved showing up to the scene of an on-going crime just to make sure the other people on the block didn't get robbed cause you failed to pay your 75 dollar Police Insurance. Only the kind where they beat and/or kill unarmed people for daring to exist while they have authority and are in a bad mood.

I'm saying, the differences in intent kind of make these not-useful situations to compare.

If we absolutely have to hammer out some kind of equivalence to something here, this situation is more like police who on balance are trying to be good police but who know that if they do certain things, they'll cross a political line in the sand and their careers will be fucked and they won't be able to do any good for anybody.

I'd like to say that I would have risked my continued ability to pay rent and buy clothes and food for myself and say, my hypothetical family that fireman-me might have, and also risk my ability to go on doing the 99% of this job that I love (which ALSO, generally, involves risking my own life for the well-being of others) for the sake of some political shit that got decided several levels above me and which my actions won't particularly change.

But realistically I can't say what I would do if you put that question to me and I don't think anybody else can either.

It WOULD have been great if these firemen had decided to break the law and save this guy's house and they would have been heroes and any attempt the city made to punish them for it would have been reprehensible but I'm not going to blame them for acting like people who live in a world where 99% of the time heroes get fucked and their names dragged through the mud by people with power who decide to just go the fuck on ahead and be reprehensible.

I especially don't go alone with the apparent sentiment here to blame these guys, who are pretty much the most powerless people in this situation, MORE and get more angry about their actions than I would blame the people who came up with this terrible policy in the first place.

[Nique]

Maybe I missed something but were the Firefighters actually notified by the dispatcher or whatever cause I never saw this as 'firefighters refuse to put out fire'. But even then yeah it's stupid to put someone in the position of 'enforce rules' v. 'save lives' in the first place.

[EVILNess]

Maybe I missed something but were the Firefighters actually notified by the dispatcher or whatever cause I never saw this as 'firefighters refuse to put out fire'. But even then yeah it's stupid to put someone in the position of 'enforce rules' v. 'save lives' in the first place.

They went out to make sure his neighbor's house wouldn't burn down and watched his go up in flames with the hoses in their hands.

[Premmy]

see, now, in that case if your hands were tied, you could just be all, "Whoops, accidentally splashed some water in your burning house there, Mr neighbor to the fee payer man"

[Gregness]

They went out to make sure his neighbor's house wouldn't burn down and watched his go up in flames with the hoses in their hands.

I understood it more like his house had ALREADY burned down and then the neighbors called the fire dept. to keep it from spreading to their place.

I'm open to being wrong though.

[Dracorion]

OP

What.

What, what.

What the fuck is this shit?

So I read this whole thread hoping against hope that someone could come up with a justifiable reason why it was okay for this man's house to burn down, but nope, nothing came up.

I'm on the camp that's more inclined to blame the man behind the organization rather than the individual firefighters. But still, Christ.

Screw this, I'm done. Fuck you society.

[CABAL49]

I have to go with Fifth. These firefighters are still people with their own lives. We expect them to risk their lives for shitty pay and expect them to be thankful for receiving anything at all. These firefighters are their own people with their own lives. They have families and loved ones to care about, that depend on them. One could say that is what is expected of a firefighter, but I cannot blame them for not acting.

[Azisien]

Just saying, if I had my family pets trapped in my burning house and the firefighters bothered to show up, but then did not put out the fire due to a $75 fee, I'm pretty sure the assault and murder I would then commit would tally up a much larger fee for the government based on all the medical and legal bills they'd have coming.

[Loyal]

I understood it more like his house had ALREADY burned down and then the neighbors called the fire dept. to keep it from spreading to their place.

I'm open to being wrong though.No, the article implies that they showed up well in advance of the house being "beyond saving".

[Hatake Kakashi]

No, the article implies that they showed up well in advance of the house being "beyond saving".

That's the impression I got as well. It was even stated in an interview with the victim that Kieth Olbermann conducted that the neighbors even offered to pony up whatever amount would be satisfactory to have the fire put out. It just wasn't done.

It seems to me as though the fire department in question might be run very strictly like a business, in which case, the fire chief would be another one of those bureaucrats that need a severe lynching. More than any other plague of society today, the bureaucrat is the biggest impediment to anything getting done.

[Viridis]

Best (worst) bit: Glenn Beck mocks fire victims (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/glenn-beck-mocks-fire-vic_b_753193.html).
It takes a truly brave man to aim high and take on a defenseless working class family whose entire world was just destroyed over a $75 fee.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Even as a conservative, I can't find anything that Glenn Beck has to say as being anything near what could be considered relevant. Or interesting.

[Magus]

Yeah, the firefighters are not really to blame (http://technews.tmcnet.com/topics/associated-press/articles/107739-woman-doesnt-blame-firefighters-who-let-home-burn.htm), anywhere near the level of David Crocker or David Wilds, for instance. I just can't fathom standing there and letting it happen, but obviously a lot of pressures would come into play.

Still, for anybody who doubts the Cranicks attempted to waylay this horrible event via compliance with the law:

Paulette Cranick said they had paid the fee in the past, although sometimes late, but it slipped their mind this year.

So not only are the Cranick's not the "sponges" that Beck was trying to make them out to be, but the city does not even bother to mail you a notice that you have forgotten to pay your FIREFIGHTER FEE, despite how IMPORTANT that would be. Whee.

[Nique]

Glenn Beck

Hrgnsk!- >,< ()

[bluestarultor]

Hrgnsk!- >,< ()

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8291/21943.jpg (http://img838.imageshack.us/i/21943.jpg/)