Welp, guess I'm not a Metroid fan. (Metroid: Other M related)

[Roland]

Ridiculous topic title is ridiculous, but I can't help feeling that it's going to be true by the time the next Metroid title is announced/developed/released.

The main thing I wanted to bring up was this article (http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html) that's recently come to my attention.

It talks about the whole Samus/Adam dynamic in Metroid: Other M. There's really nothing there that I can quote by itself without taking it out of context. Even this:

If Metroid: Other M is indicative of the direction the Metroid series will be going from now on, I’m afraid I can no longer be a Metroid fan. For that matter, if Other M represents what Metroid’s creators had intended all along but hadn’t made clear until now, then I was never really a Metroid fan to begin with.

Which I have no misgivings* about completely agreeing with.

tl;dr: Roland has a lot of misgivings about Metroid: Other M, feels that a long article says it all better than he could**, and really hopes that none of this is indicative of future Metroid titles.

*In the sense that I really don't want to accept that Other M's story issues were intentional and really hope it was just the result of poor judgment rather than any real "vision" of what Metroid and Samus are all about.
**Which says more about my inability to put my thoughts into words than anything else, I hope.

[BitVyper]

It only invalidates your experiences with the previous games if you let it, and if you let it, well that's just kind of silly.

[Archbio]

It's almost like the stand-in character for the player in Other M isn't Samus at all but this (incidentally I'm sure) male character who dominates and drives Samus throughout the story.

Today, the part of Samus Aran will be played by Zoe Barnes. thebabythebabythebabythebaby

[Magus]

It was made by the Ninja Gaiden guy. I wouldn't find it particularly indicative of some secret nefarious sexist nature of Metroid series overall...I understand it had the same writer (or is he merely a producer-type?) but why hadn't his "true colors" shown through until he was stuck with Iga? Was it just because of the emphasis on dialogue in this one? Or was Team Ninja pushing their agenda?

EDIT: Basically I'm saying that giving up on the entire Metroid series because of one bad game makes little sense. It would be like giving up on any other long-ass series and all its future installments just because they put out a turd one time. It doesn't make any sense.

I didn't like Majora's Mask, for instance, it didn't mean I was never a Zelda fan or that I would never be one again.

[bluestarultor]

For that matter, I hate FF12, but I think the rest of the series is just aces (that exists. I have no idea why they jumped all the way from 10 to 12 with only a direct sequel to 10 in between. :3:).

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Welcome to the life of a Sonic Fan.

Seriously though speaking from my experiences. A series has to produce several bad titles, one after another. To be considered doomed.

True it only took one bad game to ruin Sonic (Sonic Cycle is rampant), Megaman X (franchise was even canceled up till about a few years ago or recently), Pac Man (not 100% sure on this one), Final Fantasy (arguably it's not exactly ruined but it lost some respect gameplay wise in the eyes of quite a few fans), ect.

But that doesn't mean it will always happen. KH 358/2 may be the only bad KH game the series ever had. And that's arguable considering the mixed reviews I've read on it. Birth By Sleep is seen as pretty decent by most reviews (gameplay wise). Sonic's on the road to recovery, and Megaman X9 seems very likely to happen and be a homage to the old SNES X games. FF 14 and Versus 13 are looking to be great titles.

My point is, unless the next 3+ Metroid games flop hard. It's no where near ruined just yet.

[Magus]

TBH Megaman X7 was such a travesty that if the X series had been completely destroyed by it it would have been well deserved. It is only by the grace of the Flying Spaghetti Monster that it may rise like a Phoenix from the ashes.

[Kim]

No. Numbery Days is objectively awful. Any review that claims otherwise is from someone who orgasms every time Axel says "Got it memorized?"

[Kyanbu The Legend]

TBH Megaman X7 was such a travesty that if the X series had been completely destroyed by it it would have been well deserved. It is only by the grace of the Flying Spaghetti Monster that it may rise like a Phoenix from the ashes.

No. Numbery Days is objectively awful. Any review that claims otherwise is from someone who orgasms every time Axel says "Got it memorized?"

Point is, one bad game doesn't always ruin a series.

[bluestarultor]

Final Fantasy (arguably it's not exactly ruined but it lost some respect gameplay wise in the eyes of quite a few fans),

Abuh? Lost respect gameplay-wise how? The gameplay is different in every game! You don't like one, wait for the next one! If you're waiting for a repeat, you're not a fan of the series, just one of a particular game. I mean I know there are a lot of tards out there who think FF7 "is" Final Fantasy, but they're just tards. It's not even the best of the series by a long shot. :raise:

[BitVyper]

The gameplay is different in every game!

Wait.... what? We're talking about Final Fantasy here, right? Lining up on the opposite side of the screen from the enemy and taking turns since nineteen eighty something... that's the game we're talking about, right? I mean, to be fair, I haven't played twelve or thirteen (is there a thirteen?), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's probably still pretty much the same thing.

[bluestarultor]

Wait.... what? We're talking about Final Fantasy here, right? Lining up on the opposite side of the screen from the enemy and taking turns since nineteen eighty something... that's the game we're talking about, right? I mean, to be fair, I haven't played twelve or thirteen (is there a thirteen?), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's probably still pretty much the same thing.

That's pretty well boiling it down to its simplest base and ignoring all the other stuff they do with them. Every last one of them has brought something totally new to the table systems-wise. From introducing a story in FF2 and class freedom in FF3, to the first Limit Breaks in FF6 (Desperation Attacks are apparently counted), Materia in FF7, Junction in FF8, and Gambits in FF12, there has always been something new on the table and it's always had a large effect. The games all play very differently.

Also, they haven't been stand-in-line fests since after FFX. X-2 had a more dynamic battle system, XI and XII were both MMOs, XIII has everything moving around the field, and XIV is yet another MMO. Then we have VersusXIII and AgitoXIII coming out which will also not be stand-in-line.

[greed]

Personally I take Bit and Kyanbu's view. I'm treating Metroid like I treat Sonic, unless it improves I'm just gonna pretend the series ended at Prime 3.

Wait.... what? We're talking about Final Fantasy here, right? Lining up on the opposite side of the screen from the enemy and taking turns since nineteen eighty something... that's the game we're talking about, right? I mean, to be fair, I haven't played twelve or thirteen (is there a thirteen?), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's probably still pretty much the same thing.

Not really, 12 was an awesome thing that sort of played like an offline MMO. 13 had a different combat system from all the others, but was a bad change. It also had teribble characters, writing and boring music. It was admittedly gorgeous however. Which is what I think Kyanbu was referring to. I know FF13 killed any interest I had in future FF titles.

Edit: Blues don't lie, 13 has things standing around in the field, but you don't fight them in the field Chronotrigger or FF12 style, you just go into encounter screens like in the old random encounters. It's the same system Tales, Star Ocean and Persona uses. Just with much shittier combat once you enter the actual battle.

[bluestarultor]

Not really, 12 was an awesome thing that sort of played like an offline MMO. 13 had a different combat system from all the others, but was a bad change. It also had teribble characters, writing and boring music. It was admittedly gorgeous however. Which is what I think Kyanbu was referring to. I know FF13 killed any interest I had in future FF titles.

Edit: Blues don't lie, 13 has things standing around in the field, but you don't fight them in the field Chronotrigger or FF12 style, you just go into encounter screens like in the old random encounters. It's the same system Tales, Star Ocean and Persona uses. Just with much shittier combat once you enter the actual battle.

Ah, but they're not standing in line. :P


I'm going to say I own the game and that Paradigm Shift is actually not all that bad a system. The characters are almost all unlikable, and the writing is admittedly not all that great, but combat itself flows well and is fast-paced to boot. No, you don't control where your characters move, but they do move around, as do enemies, forcing you to try to time your attacks. It's a pretty involved system if you actually get around to working it.

I mean, shit, if we're being so shallow that we're judging a series based on nothing but whether you battle in an arena or not, I'll say that I've found most non-arena-battle games to have been utter shit, so in that sense FF13 has something going in its favor.

Also, Chrono Trigger for all intents and purposes turns the field screens INTO arenas. There is jack for free flow in that. You just had a system that was bad enough to still be using tiles, but good enough that you could make a fluid transition into an arena using the same scenery.


Edit: I could go on about all the flaws in FF12's system, like how range doesn't matter to enemies and they're just good about hiding it, or how Godawful slow it is, or how you have to unlock AI bits to help make your team more effective, or, well, I guess I just did. FF12 is far from perfect and the only good thing I found in the entire game that I managed to force myself through was how the weaponry was balanced.

Edit^2: Now I have to go cool off, because even talking about that game has literally started up my adrenaline.

[Archbio]

It was made by the Ninja Gaiden guy. I wouldn't find it particularly indicative of some secret nefarious sexist nature of Metroid series overall...I understand it had the same writer (or is he merely a producer-type?) but why hadn't his "true colors" shown through until he was stuck with Iga? Was it just because of the emphasis on dialogue in this one?

I think that one quote that the article cites from Sakamoto illuminates the question, somewhat:

Depicting the story of Samus Aran in this game was one of the most important game design concepts from the very beginning because before Other M I did not think about what kind of person Samus Aran was and how she thinks and her personality….Plus because of the existence of the Metroid Prime series many people might have different ideas about what kind of person Samus Aran was….So with Other M I really wanted to determine and express what kind of human Samus Aran is so that we can really tell what kind of natural step she should be taking in the future.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Abuh? Lost respect gameplay-wise how? The gameplay is different in every game! You don't like one, wait for the next one! If you're waiting for a repeat, you're not a fan of the series, just one of a particular game. I mean I know there are a lot of tards out there who think FF7 "is" Final Fantasy, but they're just tards. It's not even the best of the series by a long shot. :raise:

There where many who gave up on/lost respect for the series around the time X and X-2 came around. They had varying reasons, for some the gameplay just didn't change enough between titles. For others it was the story, character designs, and the characters them selves.

[Regulus Tera]

People who hit this instead of Sin and Punishnent 2 are what's wrong with Nintendo fans.

[bluestarultor]

There where many who gave up on/lost respect for the series around the time X and X-2 came around. They had varying reasons, for some the gameplay just didn't change enough between titles. For others it was the story, character designs, and the characters them selves.

I can totally get not liking X-2 for various reasons. As much as I like it, it drives me nuts in some areas. X was fantastic, though, and I'd count it as one of the best of the series, voice acting aside (and even that wasn't the cast's fault since they were forced into a marathon run with no references).

Gameplay-wise, X introduced probably the least to the series, but what little it did was an improvement, ranging from switching out party members in battle to providing numerous means of getting an Overdrive. Heck, even the Sphere Grid isn't that bad. It's not like it's hard to grind.



Also, X-2 didn't come out at the same time as X so much as XI, so I can totally see the disappointment there.





Edit: To pull this back around to the topic, if Final Fantasy can get ravenous fans for every one of its titles despite how divisive they've all been since VII, and even VII is divisive now that you've got a good backlash going against the fanboys, Metroid probably can survive a bit longer.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I can totally get not liking X-2 for various reasons. As much as I like it, it drives me nuts in some areas. X was fantastic, though, and I'd count it as one of the best of the series, voice acting aside (and even that wasn't the cast's fault since they were forced into a marathon run with no references).

Gameplay-wise, X introduced probably the least to the series, but what little it did was an improvement, ranging from switching out party members in battle to providing numerous means of getting an Overdrive. Heck, even the Sphere Grid isn't that bad. It's not like it's hard to grind.



Also, X-2 didn't come out at the same time as X so much as XI, so I can totally see the disappointment there.


I think it was the awful awful story plodded out over about 30 hours of unskippable cutscenes "revealing" plot elements that you worked out about 20 hours ago and all this done through massive screeds of hammy exposition. No Final fantasy has an amazing story but X is where it started to get abusive with the cutscenes to the extent that I had to have a book next to me when playing to start reading when the cutscenes started.

As for Metroid there should be more heroes like Samus who are just ditherers and weak-willed and terrible rolemodels. It will make up for the millions of other, always correct, force solves everything, grunt marines running around.

[bluestarultor]

I think it was the awful awful story plodded out over about 30 hours of unskippable cutscenes "revealing" plot elements that you worked out about 20 hours ago and all this done through massive screeds of hammy exposition. No Final fantasy has an amazing story but X is where it started to get abusive with the cutscenes to the extent that I had to have a book next to me when playing to start reading when the cutscenes started.

As for Metroid there should be more heroes like Samus who are just ditherers and weak-willed and terrible rolemodels. It will make up for the millions of other, always correct, force solves everything, grunt marines running around.

I think rather than giving people a different brand of terrible role model, we might take it a step further and actually give them, you know, good ones. Samus could totally be a vehicle for strong, capable women, and I think most people would actually prefer that.

She doesn't have to be a bitch. She doesn't have to be violent. She doesn't even have to be utilitarian. A well-handled Samus would be a smart, capable lady who's capable of doing a job dominated by men in other games, doesn't break down every five seconds or get shuffled into an arbitrary motherhood role, and keeps it clean with her language and habits.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd find that more sexy than all the clingy wusses or slutty bitches in the world.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Videogames don't need to provide role models- fuck it.

[Amake]

Videogames don't need to provide stories. And I say this as someone who lives and breathes for story. I'm perfectly fine with Samus being a caricature of a blank slate with no other purpose than shooting some funny-looking space aliens and jumping that shit, because those are the things I want to do when I play Metroid. I'm not looking to be told a story, especially not one that from what I've heard turns Samus into a self-obsessed, whining, insecure bimbo.

Heh, more and more I find I have little use for most games released in the last ten years or so. I'm going to play Super Metroid again and watch this music video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz8wK9B8OMc) and continue to call myself a Metroid fan.

[Kim]

Oh hey it's the same conversation about Final Fantasy we always have whenever someone brings up how they didn't like such and such Final Fantasy. Whoo.

[greed]

Yeah I keep telling myself not to bother but I always do. Eh. But yeah I've said my piece I'm calling Sonic on the series and pretending nothing bad ever happened and that Metroid finsihed with Prime 3(maybe 2). I'm good at ignoring reality when I want to.

That said I'm done with this thread. I try not to to think about this game if possible.

[bluestarultor]

Videogames don't need to provide role models- fuck it.

Well, considering they raised a lot of us and will undoubtedly be raising our children, we may as well campaign for them to do it in a way that we approve of. :P

Videogames don't need to provide stories. And I say this as someone who lives and breathes for story. I'm perfectly fine with Samus being a caricature of a blank slate with no other purpose than shooting some funny-looking space aliens and jumping that shit, because those are the things I want to do when I play Metroid. I'm not looking to be told a story, especially not one that from what I've heard turns Samus into a self-obsessed, whining, insecure bimbo.

Heh, more and more I find I have little use for most games released in the last ten years or so. I'm going to play Super Metroid again and watch this music video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz8wK9B8OMc) and continue to call myself a Metroid fan.

Games without stories are going the way of the dinosaur. Well, on second thought, no, they're just clinging on in indie and casual games. And even many indie games at least try for a story. Games have gone from idle entertainment to a storytelling medium. The sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can demand better quality.

[Kim]

Games without stories are going the way of the dinosaur. Well, on second thought, no, they're just clinging on in indie and casual games. And even many indie games at least try for a story. Games have gone from idle entertainment to a storytelling medium. The sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can demand better quality.

Not every game needs story. It depends on the game. IE - Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light has a terrible story, but it all took place in maybe fifteen minutes of cutscene tops, and it was a game where more story and more attempt to make a better one would have detracted from the experience. The story is irrelevant the experience, and just an excuse for the gameplay, so it works.

[bluestarultor]

Not every game needs story. It depends on the game. IE - Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light has a terrible story, but it all took place in maybe fifteen minutes of cutscene tops, and it was a game where more story and more attempt to make a better one would have detracted from the experience. The story is irrelevant the experience, and just an excuse for the gameplay, so it works.

That I won't argue with. Having a story can be worse than not having one if it's done poorly enough. On the other hand, the reason poor stories like that come about is because the act of having a story itself is an expectation of modern games. We like shiny things, and a story is a shiny thing in productions filled with shiny things. The issue is that the market as a whole treats it as a selling point, so if you don't have one, people will throw up their hands and call your production tripe without even giving it a chance.

Plus it really helps when you're marketing the thing, because it gives you built-in eye-catch footage, not unlike a movie trailer.

[Amake]

We'll probably still be able to play NES Metroid 65 million years from now. I'm not sure where you're going with that extinction simile.

Now excuse me, but I'm going to tell some kids to get off my lawn.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well, considering they raised a lot of us and will undoubtedly be raising our children, we may as well campaign for them to do it in a way that we approve of. :P


Ok but anytime anybody in future says anything about games being art I'm going to bring this up and shit on everybody.

[Fifthfiend]

The best thing Nintendo could have done with Other M is hire Ted Woolsey to write the game an entire new plot for American audiences that don't like their Metroid jammed full of *what is the feeling of my purpose stars earthspirit rainbows* bullshit.

Ok but anytime anybody in future says anything about games being art I'm going to bring this up and shit on everybody.

Thank you for the advance notice, now I can get a head start on assembling a collection of suitable gifs for these posts.

[greed]

The best thing Nintendo could have done with Other M is hire Ted Woolsey to write the game an entire new plot for American audiences that don't like their Metroid jammed full of *what is the feeling of my purpose stars earthspirit rainbows* bullshit.



Thank you for the advance notice, now I can get a head start on assembling a collection of suitable gifs for these posts.

Smarty, check your bathroom for cameras. Well more than you already do for government bugs.

[bluestarultor]

Ok but anytime anybody in future says anything about games being art I'm going to bring this up and shit on everybody.

These things are not mutually exclusive. ;)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

These things are not mutually exclusive. ;)

Well not exactly but I'm saying if we going to limit artistic expression to avenues of main characters who are good role models we will have to throw out pretty much the entire literary/filmic canon. Every character everywhere is an asshole.
Like having suitable role models doesn't preclude you from being a good piece of work but if it is mandated from the beginning to have role models just because that is just arbitrarily limiting your medium (Lol, postmodernism). The response should be "This character doesn't work in this gme@ not "This character is a bad role model and thus is a bad character".


Thank you for the advance notice, now I can get a head start on assembling a collection of suitable gifs for these posts.
That's ok, my response is just going to be Hitler gifs which are much easier to find.

[PyrosNine]

I think a good representation of Samus Aran as a character is a representation of her being a Bounty Hunter who doesn't GIVE A SHIT BECAUSE SHE CAN CURL INTO A BALL AND DESTROY EVERYTHING IN A 100 FOOT RADIUS.

Also where she shows up, tells Adamn she doesn't work for the federation anymore, so he can't tell her what to do, pulls out the screw attack and kills everything, and when the Federation comes to cover up, she blasts them all in the face. Then she and Higgs hold hands and skip over to the space mall and get Cinnabons, have a slumber party, and paint each other's fingernails. And James was dead the very minute the scan visor was used on him. And when Adamn sneaks up behind her with a freeze ray, she does a backflip, kicks the gun out of his hand, and then he inexplicably explodes.

[bluestarultor]

Well not exactly but I'm saying if we going to limit artistic expression to avenues of main characters who are good role models we will have to throw out pretty much the entire literary/filmic canon. Every character everywhere is an asshole.
Like having suitable role models doesn't preclude you from being a good piece of work but if it is mandated from the beginning to have role models just because that is just arbitrarily limiting your medium (Lol, postmodernism). The response should be "This character doesn't work in this gme@ not "This character is a bad role model and thus is a bad character".

The wonder of a market economy is that people can produce anything they want and consumers will only consume what they like, thereby driving what is produced via their purchases.

If parents would pay attention to what their kids were playing and buy games with better role models, the market would eventually shift further and further toward that end of the spectrum.

What, you think the market is saturated with space marines with all the emotion of a rock and built the size of a comfortable house because they're decent or even likable people? Fuck no! They're boring as hell, probably boring to write, and aren't exactly going to win you any awards or advance your writing career. They rule the market because every zit-faced teenaged male looks at that and how they're marketed as being so cool and thinks that's what a "real man" is the same way girls are flooded with skeletal models and think they're ugly and fat. By slowly including characters with more depth than a teaspoon and able to express real emotions without coming off as a pansy like they always seem to when the writers decide they need someone to kill off, more human characters will eventually be rewarded when people realize they don't want to bash their faces in with a sledgehammer every time they open their mouths. The writers will be able to (or will have to learn how to, depending on how pessimistic you are) exercise MORE freedom in how they write their cast, making for a much more interesting experience with every consecutive release. Maybe the hero is a hard-drinking deadbeat dad with an attack dog, but at least he's more interesting than a character you could replace with a fridge with a gun turret strapped to the top and no one would notice.

It's like Duke Nukem in a way. The character was created to boldfacedly parody the machismo stereotypes that ruled the market at the time, but did well enough at it that everyone pretty well missed the point and took it seriously to the point where over a decade later, the climate is totally appropriate for him to come around and do it again. Only instead of trying to undermine via parody again, someone might try to undermine via making a male character who caters to teen power fantasies while not actually being such a 'roid-raging dick.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well yeah that was my point. If you're making your character based on what the marketing dept tells you be that space marine or a powerful female role model your artisitic credentials are in doubt.

[bluestarultor]

Well yeah that was my point. If you're making your character based on what the marketing dept tells you be that space marine or a powerful female role model your artisitic credentials are in doubt.

Well, my point was less that that would be the end result and more that that's probably what's already happening. If the market moves to a state of variety, the marketing department will have less say in how you write your cast because they'll either a) not know if it's going to sell or not because it hasn't been done quite that way yet, or b) it won't matter, because they know there's probably a market for it regardless.

[Archbio]

SMB,

Your facial credentials are in doubt.

[Fifthfiend]

That's ok, my response is just going to be Hitler gifs which are much easier to find.

Godwin's gif.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

SMB,

Your facial credentials are in doubt.

How so?

[Archbio]

Your face's artistic credentials are in doubt. Try and keep up.

Edit: Alternatively: Your face is signed Andy Warhol.

[Fifthfiend]

Your face's artistic credentials are in doubt.

I still can't believe his permit hasn't been revoked.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

My art is so advanced it's like a laser cannon to your peashooters. They might get it in a few hundred years.
Being judged by my peers is like giving a bunch of monkeys The Trial and expecting them to make sense of it.

[Archbio]

Laser cannons are so bourgeois. It's the kind of thing you'd expect a focus group to come up with.

I still can't believe his permit hasn't been revoked.

He could get fined for it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

He could get fined for it.

You'll never catch me alive!

[Kim]

Well not exactly but I'm saying if we going to limit artistic expression to avenues of main characters who are good role models we will have to throw out pretty much the entire literary/filmic canon. Every character everywhere is an asshole.

The problem is less that Samus isn't a rolemodel and more that Samus is just atrociously written from any and every angle you can look at Other M from.

[Archbio]

The problem is less that Samus isn't a rolemodel and more that Samus is just atrociously written from any and every angle you can look at Other M from.

But it's also the "role model" (or really, the hero thing) thing, on top of the atrocious writing thing.

Sakamoto wants to portray Samus Aran as a positive character, and we end up with this. That's kind of a valid observation. I'm not sure what the whole "art or not art" thing has to do with that.

[Fifthfiend]

Yeah from the OP it sounds like the writer pretty much is portraying Samus as a "role model", just like, as a model for the role of submissive, psychologically infantilized woman in a creepily romanticized abusive relationship.

[Jagos]

I just went to my Best buy to watch the beginning...

Holy Sweet mother of PEARL what the hell did they do to Samus?

I didn't understand before but I cringed with just the beginning with her fascination with Adam. Nothing could have prepared me for that.

[Kim]

Holy Sweet mother of PEARL what the hell did they do to Samus?

They turned her into Tidus.

[Magus]

It's not surprising that everybody hated Samus' personality, since the whole point prior to then is that, much like Gordon Freeman, you are Samus and so your own personality is what is put upon her, except for some Nintendo Power comics (which didn't have anything particularly objectionable that I remember...)

Unless Prime 3 had some voice acting (still don't have a Wii)...

[Jagos]

They turned her into Tidus.

She didn't come off as that whiny...

More it's a conflict of what really makes her a good bounty hunter.

No, this is effectively Squall/Cloud bad.