[tVtRoPEs] Let's talk about shows which follow this particular trajectory

[Fifthfiend]

Show is good! Flawed but, on balance, enjoyable -> Show is shitty! But still fun to watch, mostly for the enjoyment of bitching about its many failings, with occasional glimmers of actual goodness -> ugh, fuck this show

It seems like there are a lot of things which do this!

Off the top of my head:

Glee

Battlestar Galactica

Bleach*

Why do shows do this? Am I right that these shows do this? Is this as particular a thing as I think it is, or is it just the perfectly normal arc for good shows turning into terrible shows? Is there anything at all to discuss here, or is this thread doomed to turn into a big circular jerking of people jerking in a circle? Who are these people, and what are they jerking, and why are they doing it in a circle? Whose hand do we expect to end up grabbing whose dick? STAY TUNED TO FIND OUT!!!

*a comic, but also a show! So it counts.

[Token]

You forgot Heroes.

But yes, this is a thing, it's a shitty thing, and it always happens to shows I like. Buffy, for example (although I wouldn't be surprised if my nostalgic memories of Buffy are due solely to the nerdcrush I had on Alyson Hannigan back when I was six.)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Marketing will force creative well-written nuanced shows to fall into chracter bawlderisation and stereotypical plots once it becomes clear which parts of the show sell the easiest to audiences. I don't watch any ofthese shows but this is possibly what going dowwwwwn.

[PCD]

Heroes is like this, if you take out the middle section.

I think it's a natural thing that happens with a lot of shows that get popular. They forget or don't know why exactly so many people like them, and then focus on what they think people want, but instead just make it into something stupid and terrible instead of more of what we love.

With newer shows, I think it may have something to do with the producers, misinterpreting what fans want and what makes good television, skewing ideas and messing with what probably wouldn't have been so bad on its own. Messing around with new writers, different directors, etc.

With shows that have been running longer, it may also be a degradation of ideas on the creator's part, or losing sight of the original intent and maybe getting a big head.

I think it's also worth noting that Shyamalan's movies followed this trend over time.

[Fifthfiend]

I was actually considering Heroes as a counterexample because that show basically started out as equal parts "good" and "shitty but fun to make fun of", then it went to like "show is just shit but you kid yourself otherwise because you want it to still be good" and then it was just ugh, fuck this.

Actually "show is just shit but you kid yourself otherwise because you want it to still be good" probably belongs in the initial show trajectory I laid out, probably either before or after the second step.

[Archbio]

Edit: the middle part of the trajectory is a hugely subjective thing. I mean, did it amuse anyone else but me when Deep Space Nine became Klingon pornography before it was about Space Anti-Christ fighting Space Jesus? One viewer's curve is another viewer's plummet.

[DarkDrgon]

I liked the third season of heroes, but I'm in the minority there. I'd put Heroes on the Good, interesting show>screwed by the network>Trying to get the old feel back>clusterfuck path

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Where does Smallville fit in this scheme? Does it add an extra layer at the end where it goes from ugh, fuck this show, to Gahhh, my brain!! It dies!!!

EDIT; But yes, this is a thing, it's a shitty thing, and it always happens to shows I like. Buffy, for example (although I wouldn't be surprised if my nostalgic memories of Buffy are due solely to the nerdcrush I had on Alyson Hannigan back when I was six.)

I'll admit seasons 5 and 6 weren't great, but it got better again in season 7.

[Pip Boy]

There are two kinds of shows. Shows that look like a magical money pinatas, and ones that don't. The ones that don't look like magical money pinatas get canceled after 13 episodes by Fox. The ones that do look like magical money pinatas get beaten within an inch of their life by Fox so they can try and make the money come out. Both of these are prime examples of why fuck you Fox network you un-cancel Firefly right now dammit.

[Specterbane]

I think an interesting thing to compare would be the shows that seem to avoid this. USA had an amazing summer line up this past season with shows that have been going on for a while. Look at Psych, they're on their 5th season and I'd say season 2 was the low point for it (though I'm not caught up in season 5). And Burn Notice has arguably stayed pretty even keel rather than any going into sort of crazy death spiral that shows like Heroes get into.

If anything causes this I'd say it's the loss of a sense of humor. For me, Heroes started tanking as it went into the gritty-grim-dark-emo stages more and more; but I haven't cared about that for a long while so I'm not sure.

[mauve]

La Femme Nikita was awesome until they killed off Birkoff (or however that kid's name was spelled) and when fans got mad, replaced him with his hitherto-unknown playboy twin brother.



....Okay, sorry. I'll be amazed if anyone here knows what show l'm talking about. It hasn't been on tv since I was in middle or high school.

[synkr0nized]

I remember that show. My brother and I sometimes watched it.

[Krylo]

fuck you Fox network you un-cancel Firefly right now dammit.

No. That would be stupid.

Serenity wrapped everything up neatly. All the hanging plot threads were over. Reavers were explained, River was explained and started getting better, Kaylee and Simon hooked up, etc. and everyone lived happily ever after. Except Wash. And Zoe, I guess.

Bringing it back would, in no way, turn out well. They'd either have to set it before Serenity, which would feel like some kind of awful other worlds/Smallville thing if they try to do anything interesting plot/character wise due to the fact we know what's going to happen or just be shitty disconnected single shots lacking any of the continuity or character growth.

Or they could place it after Serenity.

And in that case, seriously, fuck Firefly without Wash.




BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY THE TOPIC.

And what is the topic is totally is a thing that happens. If memory serves, that's why Jerry killed Seinfeld after a few seasons. It was already getting pretty close to jumping the shark and getting shitty(/ier).

Either the writers start running out of ideas, or the executives get at them, or whatever other thing and every show starts going down hill. Maybe not in the specific manner specified for every show ever, but I can't think of a show that ran for a long time and didn't have these kinds of issues eventually.

Except maybe the original Star Trek, which went straight from 'good for its time Science Fiction' and hopped straight into 'so bad it's good. I mean seriously, Kirk just wrestled Genghis Khan to the ground with the help of Lincoln.'

[POS Industries]

Except maybe the original Star Trek, which went straight from 'good for its time Science Fiction' and hopped straight into 'so bad it's good. I mean seriously, Kirk just wrestled Genghis Khan to the ground with the help of Lincoln.'
It is interesting to note how heavily the number of omnipotent alien superbeings declined between the 23rd and 24th centuries. Now that I think about it, there was an even further drop in such beings in the 24th century right around the moment Roddenberry died.

After that you just had an occasional visit by Q.

Actually, is there a reverse version of this trope that applies to TNG-era Star Trek shows?

[Krylo]

After that you just had an occasional visit by Q.

Well, and the Traveler.

Which, by the way, marks why I had to specify 'Original Star Trek' and couldn't give a nod to TNG.

[Pip Boy]

I know they can't actually still continue it, but that doesn't mean that I can't rage about the fact that it was canceled to begin with. I mean, they could continue it, but they'd have to ret-con Serenity out of existence and that'd be a terrible mistake.

[Krylo]

Rage about them canceling Pushing Daisies instead.

[Fifthfiend]

I think an interesting thing to compare would be the shows that seem to avoid this. USA had an amazing summer line up this past season with shows that have been going on for a while. Look at Psych, they're on their 5th season and I'd say season 2 was the low point for it (though I'm not caught up in season 5). And Burn Notice has arguably stayed pretty even keel rather than any going into sort of crazy death spiral that shows like Heroes get into.

I think the fundamental thing is that the shows that do what I was talking about in the first post all tend to start out with some level flawed-ness which initially isn't that bad or is balanced against the show's more positive elements. Like I think that if you like, um, Psych, or Burn Notice, you pretty much just like Psych and Burn Notice, you're not like really into it for this element even in spite of this other element that is consistently inexplicable and stupid. Whereas like even with Galactica, when the show was at its best there was still some stuff that was just plain-ass nonsense/bullshit. And instead of clipping off those things or improving them the show will just let them like, get bigger and dumber while diminishing the things you liked about it in the first place. Like in Galactica the intra-fleet politics and anything involving Baltar were always furiously fucking stupid but it was worth it for Starbuck being badass and crazy and the broader hints at the mythology arc but eventually the latter two things just become as dumb as everything else about the show.

PS Smallville doesn't count because it was terrible as of episode one.

Rage about them canceling Pushing Daisies instead.

It's still too amazing that Pushing Daisies got put on the air at all.

[Magus]

I presume a good sequel to Serenity would involve a second galactic civil war. It's not impossible.

But yeah there wouldn't be any Wash or Book...

For some reason no one has mentioned LOST. I will now mention LOST as following this trajectory quite neatly.

[Sithdarth]

Anyone else notice a genre trend going on here? I'm thinking it hints at a possible cause to this. Namely the vast majority of these shows are SciFi based and suffer from writers that just can't write SciFi and end up painting themselves into a corner for the sake of continuity. Essentially what I'm saying is that these writers have a great idea for say a movie or a miniseries but once you get into that area where you are essentially into the day to day lives of your characters most writers don't have the creativity to write decent stories about things they have not and/or cannot experience. As the adage goes you write what you know which can make writing SciFi significantly challenging over the long term. For that matter any really out there genre like Fantasy and the like will also suffer from this generally because the main source of initial drama comes from the author imagining what it would be like to discover this new world and expressing that through the characters. This is something that just about everyone can get a good handle on writer or not. Once you get past that phase into routine then everything goes to hell if you don't have a very very good writer because no one knows what it is like for the content of these stories to be routine.

Having not watched Glee I can't comment but I think you'll find that the writers are equally out of their depth in terms of never having really been in the shoes of the characters they are portraying. A great writer can get away with that but unfortunately most TV writers aren't really great. In short I think you can attribute this largely to writers progressing to a point outside of their comfortable writing range because they aren't paying attention to the progression of the story. It doesn't help when they write in teams. It also doesn't help when you have writers that have absolutely no background in what they are writing and no desire to do research into it (I'm looking at you Eureka and that god awful ultra-indigo time traveling light crap).

[Satan's Onion]

House is, by now, pretty firmly in the "Show is shitty! But still fun to watch, mostly for the enjoyment of bitching about its many failings" category at this point for me. I initially started tuning in because hanging out around here and reading 8-Bit Theater has given me something of a taste for lead characters who are not simply flawed but fundamentally and fascinatingly broken, and House used to provide that marvelously. Now he's going to a therapist and he has his one twu wub in Cuddy and they're trying to give the other characters relationship dramaz and Chase's So I Murdered A Genocidal African Warlord thing from last season or so and---well, I just don't want any of that. I want less Huddy and more of that sweet, sweet WilHouse action dialogue. (I still kind of like Taub, though. He has some relationship dramaz, but not quite as much, so at his best he kind of sits on the metaphorical sidelines and assholes it up the way House used to. Y'know, back when he was awesome.)

But enough of that. You know a show that's still at the awesome end of the spectrum? Community. Community's the bee's knees, you guys. It's practially the only thing NBC has done right in years.

[Magus]

Speaking of NBC, the American version of The Office kind of follows this trend, at least insofar as it has become completely by the numbers and boring to me at this point in time. I have a hard time telling the new season from the past two, I tune in sometimes and think I must be watching a rerun or something. It is not necessarily bad but it is stale.

[Fifthfiend]

But enough of that. You know a show that's still at the awesome end of the spectrum? Community. Community's the bee's knees, you guys. It's practially the only thing NBC has done right in years.

This is one of those shows I'm going to 'discover' after it's been on for five seasons and literally the entire world has already told me about it a trillion times, after which I will insufferably harangue everybody who has already told me about it a million times about how totally great it is.

[Satan's Onion]

I'd suggest jumping in to Community now, not least because it's up against XKCD: The Sitcom The Big Bang Theory so it may not even have five seasons.

[Sithdarth]

So that's why The Big Bang Theory is suddenly on Thursdays instead of right after (or was it right before) How I Met your Mother. I guess they thought a show sort of about academia and nerds would compete better with Community then whatever crap they had there.

Thanks to the magic of DVR and Hulu in case the magic of DVR fails I watch both shows anyways. The internet and DVRs are totally killing the concept of a TV line up. I seriously don't even know why they bother anymore.

[katiuska]

It still bewilders me that "sitcom about physicists nerding it up" is a thing that exists.

[Sithdarth]

Maybe it's because I'm a physicist (ok still in training and more as some sort of unholy combination of theoretical physicist, experimental physicist, engineer, chemist, mathematician, biologist, geologist, etc that people like to call a material science major) but I think it took too goddamn long really. Also, it's 3 physicists and an engineer to be specific. To be even more specific it is an Experimental Physicist who appears to be working in some sort of optics related field, a theoretical physicist whose working on the origins of everything or whatever insane notion pops into his head as any good theoretical physicist would do, an Astrophysicists you is basically out of work but helping the theoretical physicist because that's what all good astrophysicists do when they aren't freezing their buts off at telescopes, and an Aerospace engineer who only has a masters and seems to work on the space station a lot for some reason despite numerous failures and a lack of proper qualifications.

[katiuska]

...So, um, if we want to talk about shows that we love to hate, but don't necessarily follow this pattern, does that belong in a new thread, or should we keep our show-bitching in here for now?

[Doc ock rokc]

House is, by now, pretty firmly in the "Show is shitty! But still fun to watch, mostly for the enjoyment of bitching about its many failings" category at this point for me. I initially started tuning in because hanging out around here and reading 8-Bit Theater has given me something of a taste for lead characters who are not simply flawed but fundamentally and fascinatingly broken, and House used to provide that marvelously. Now he's going to a therapist and he has his one twu wub in Cuddy and they're trying to give the other characters relationship dramaz and Chase's So I Murdered A Genocidal African Warlord thing from last season or so and---well, I just don't want any of that. I want less Huddy and more of that sweet, sweet WilHouse action dialogue. (I still kind of like Taub, though. He has some relationship dramaz, but not quite as much, so at his best he kind of sits on the metaphorical sidelines and assholes it up the way House used to. Y'know, back when he was awesome.)Because Fuck Character devolopment right? Yeah I know what you mean the Fundamental "broken" characters are a fantastic and lovely but they get old with time. Take Black mage from 8 bit. He was still Broken at the end but he still had some character development in the story. House is the same way. He still is broken Its just that he is developed a little more. House's...Bromance is still there but Wilson is becoming more House like (playing tricks and pranks on house, being a little more rude or forward and a bit cold hearted in his own ways) while house is becoming more Wilson (he is a little nicer and thoughtful then before but basically mimicking Wilson.) which is mirroring quite nicely with Hom(es wa)tson bromance that its based off of.

[Satan's Onion]

Because Fuck Character devolopment right? Yeah I know what you mean the Fundamental "broken" characters are a fantastic and lovely but they get old with time. Take Black mage from 8 bit. He was still Broken at the end but he still had some character development in the story. House is the same way. He still is broken Its just that he is developed a little more. House's...Bromance is still there but Wilson is becoming more House like (playing tricks and pranks on house, being a little more rude or forward and a bit cold hearted in his own ways) while house is becoming more Wilson (he is a little nicer and thoughtful then before but basically mimicking Wilson.) which is mirroring quite nicely with Hom(es wa)tson bromance that its based off of.

Dude, it's a TV show. You sure "Because fuck character development" isn't a bit harsh, considering? :(

My problem isn't that he's developing as a character; it's that I think he's developing in a way that I consider boring and trite. Oh, look, he's snarky on the outside, but he's much nicer now, and he's kicked drugs and paired off with the woman of his dreams and they will stay together no matter how implausible their relationship becomes! (Seriously, he's pulled too many dick moves and she was completely over him right up to the point where she suddenly wasn't for some reason.) As far as I can tell, either this is going to become "...and he lived happily ever after, /show" or they're going to be one of those on-again, off-again, on-again, off-again, on-again, off-again ad infinitum couples and I'm not really looking forward to either. (That said, since they're gonna do Huddy anyway, it might be kind of interesting if it happened like "and he's alone again after sabotaging this relationship from the word go because redemption and self-improvement don't happen uniformly, all at once, and relationships don't necessarily work just because you really want it", but that doesn't seem to be the way things are going so far, and I'm not sure I trust these writers to be quite that subtle.) I also don't think the other members of the team are sufficiently fleshed out to make their various pairings-off much more than filler.

Look, I can see this one turning into a big ol' huge flame war if we both don't keep our composure here. Can we let it rest by accepting that we're both clearly getting very different things out of this show?

[Fifthfiend]

...So, um, if we want to talk about shows that we love to hate, but don't necessarily follow this pattern, does that belong in a new thread, or should we keep our show-bitching in here for now?

My ruling as High Grand Pajandrum and also self-appointed MiniMod of this thread that I posted and, thusly, own, it is acceptable to post about this IF your post relates back to the initial topic by way of remarking upon the differences between your pattern of dislike for the show you are talking about and the pattern of dislike that is this thread's topic.

But since I'm not actually any of those things I just said, actually just go ahead and do whatever!