Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim or HERE THERE BE DRAGONS

[greed]

Trailer here. (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/11/skyrim-elder-scrolls-5-coming-11-11-11/)

So it's set in Skyrim which is expected but still cool (also means it's not gonna be turd brown and dark green like so much is and I was worried a game set in Black Marsh would be), also focussing on Nords which is cool. Also Dragons.


Still kinda wish that rumour I heard a while back of it being set where the lands of the wood elves, Khajiit and Argonians converge had panned out though.

[Melfice]

I'm just happy this isn't the "expected" Elder Scrolls MMO.
And I hope there never will be.

As for Skyrim not being browns and greens... true.
Instead, it'll be whites and blues! =D Also, some brown and green too for the trees.

EDIT: Also, I thought dragons only lived in Akavir. Well... dragons-dragons are extinct, if I remember the lore right. But there's the Tiger-Dragon, Tosh Raka, who was a cat-person (think like the Khajiit, I guess) who managed to turn into a dragon with orange and black scales.

EDIT AGAIN: Well... that's funky! I guess there are still dragons left.

[Donomni]

Trying to get excited for this, but considering the PS3 versions of Bethesda games take at least a year before they have the same content, I'm just kinda interested.

Fucking exclusive agreements on multi-platform games.

[Marc v4.0]

I can't really blame MS for wanting more edge, or Bethesda for wanting more money.

I also own a 360 so neener neener neener :P

[Hatake Kakashi]

I have no such troubles. I prefer to game on my PC.

Additionally, it's about fucking time.

[Krylo]

I have no such troubles. I prefer to game on my PC.

Especially Bethsoft games.

[Nikose Tyris]

I purchased a 360 exclusively for Oblivion and Fable.

So now I have also purchased it for Skyrim. [Providing it doesn't Red Ring before November]

[Shin Amakiir]

Sorry, too busy being excited about Mass Effect 3 to care too much. But it'll still be awesome!

Also, I got a PC as my main system. Neener neener neeeener.

[Marc v4.0]

I think many of us count as having a PC for a 'system'

[Nikose Tyris]

I think many of us count as having a PC for a 'system'

What do you mean, I've never owned a computer in my life. I connect to the internet through wires directly in my brain. <3

[Eltargrim]

What do you mean, I've never owned a computer in my life. I connect to the internet through wires directly in my brain. <3

oh god where can i get this i want this now please

[Marc v4.0]

I clearly use bullshit and magic to connect to the internet

edit: To be fair, everything I do is done with some degree of bullshit and magic

[Sithdarth]

Pfft we all know I actually live on the internet hopping from server to server when I need more space.

Anyways I look forward to this for no other reason besides figuring out how to break it like Morrowind and Oblivion before it. Seriously the leveling system is so broken I can usually get at least level 30 without ever really doing anything but alchemy and casting useless spells at nothing. Maybe some running and jumping in place for good measure.

[bluestarultor]

What do you mean, I've never owned a computer in my life. I connect to the internet through wires directly in my brain. <3

In that case, all you have to do is stick the DVD in your mouth and off you go to a magical (winter wonder)land. ;)


I have to say I would have hoped more for Elsweyr, since I have enough snow in my life without it being in my games all over the place, and I fear for the diversity of the game. Oblivion was good because you had all the races in basically equal amounts due to Tamriel being dead center on the map. Sticking a game firmly in human territory, and especially in a snow pit, takes all the color out of it. Also, Elsweyr is supposed to be really insular and knowledge of the place (and the Khajiit, for that matter) is limited, so basing a game on cracking that open would interest me far more than just running around human settlements.


Edit: Of course thinking more on it, that would just mean you'd have a ton of diverse cats running around, since nobody's allowed in. :/

[Shin Amakiir]

I think many of us count as having a PC for a 'system'

I meant I don't have any consoles except my old PS2, and I spend more money on getting my PC running smoothly than saving up for consoles. :p

[Roland]

I have to say I would have hoped more for Elsweyr, since I have enough snow in my life without it being in my games all over the place

I, on the other hand, welcome a map where 90% of the terrain is covered in snow and ice, if only because I haven't seen the motherland in nearly two years.

*sigh* I miss Wisconsin.

[greed]

I just hope it's an interesting environment. I'm still annoyed at them changing Cyrodil from the bastard offspring of Rome and the Ankor Wat civilisation in a sprawling monster infested swamp it was described as in Morrowind, to generic fantasy world #333356. The Capitol Wastelands sea of brown with GREY RUINS wasn't a great deal better honestly.

Also who else wants Fallout 3/New Vegas style dialogue checks to make the conversations better, more personalised and more interesting?

[Shin Amakiir]

Guys.

Guys.

Hey, guys!

ES5'll have a new engine (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/13/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-to-be-built-on-new-engine/).

Bitchin'.

[Krylo]

A new engine that is still being developed internally.

[Melfice]

A new engine that is still being developed internally.

But at least it won't be a decades old engine that has already died, but is being supported by strings, chickenwire and a highly volatile tonic of adrenaline, cocaine, XTC and caffeine.

[Marc v4.0]

If I would trust anyone to build a new engine that would be custom-tailored to support Bethesda's type of open-world games, it would be Bethesda.

[Krylo]

Because that worked so well last time.

[Marc v4.0]

Considering I've never seen Bethsoft release all this horrible stuff you seem to be in absolute fear and disgust of, yes I would say it worked well.

I'll just step out and let all the fun, off-topic Bethesda hate just run along then, though.

[Inbred Chocobo]

Considering I've never seen Bethsoft release all this horrible stuff you seem to be in absolute fear and disgust of, yes I would say it worked well.

I'll just step out and let all the fun, off-topic Bethesda hate just run along then, though.

Can I live in your world?

Nah, but in all seriousness the last engine that Bethesda used and made themselves had quite a few bugs and glitches. Besides some visual bugs and once in a while a quest breaker, there were save bugs (which a lot of times if you go through a door and it crashes, its actually a save bug, turn off auto-saving) that ruined hundreds of hours of play. I think that that is more due to the modibility of the games the engines were designed on, but even the base games had their problems.

However I'm willing to give them a chance, as it is possible they learn from making an engine before and improve upon its fundamental level.

[Krylo]

You forgot the clipping. Oh how many times have I been unable to kill a mudcrab or rad scorpion because it was 90% clipped into the ground... how many times have I had swords, arrows, and bullets swinging and firing at me from within walls.

Not to mention the, extremely, poor character animation, and especially facial animations. The stock solid dialogue deliveries from NPCs.

And that's all just their engine.

I'd mention the terrible physics, too... but they're too much fun in the Fallout games to really be a negative.

[Marc v4.0]

I guess my entire experience is rose tinted by the fact that I've never run across an actual game-breaker or save-ruiner. The most I get is titchy collisions or hilariously placed physics fuck-ups.

That was only in Oblivion onward, too. Morrowind never gave me any problems at all except on the console, what with the wonderful way it would have to load every 10 seconds while moving around the world map if you had been playing longer then 40 hours.

In fact, New Vegas is about the buggiest game I have played with the Bethesda label, but a lot of the bugs I encountered there were things I had never seen or heard of happening in FO3 and Obl. which leads me to point at Obsidian's work with the engine.

EDIT: I would argue that Writing and bad Animators are NOT an engine problem at all, mostly because they are not and it's a little silly to blame them on it. You can get improved animations that look wonderful from Mods, which wouldn't be possible if it was the engine making them shitty.

Really, the fact that modders can improve on everything goes more to show that the people making it at Bethesda aren't bringing out their A game most of the time.

[Krylo]

EDIT: I would argue that Writing and bad Animators are NOT an engine problem at all, mostly because they are not and it's a little silly to blame them on it. You can get improved animations that look wonderful from Mods, which wouldn't be possible if it was the engine making them shitty.

Really, the fact that modders can improve on everything goes more to show that the people making it at Bethesda aren't bringing out their A game most of the time.

I've never seen animation fixes, and even when outsourced (See: New Vegas) the animations remain exactly the same and clunky as ever.

If they exist, however, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Also the whole Bethsoft not bringing out their A-Game thing? Exactly. They don't bring their A-Game to developing the actual games... why should I expect them to do any better on their engine?

Annnnd in my defense, I did separate the writing from the engine, but holy crap is Bethesda terrible at writing. The difference between New Vegas and FO:3 is like night and day, and Oblivion was just terrible. Completely failed to engage me at all in the main quest line, and even the side quests that I decided to do were rail roaded, inflexible, and, at times, illogical. Then there's the dialogue and ugh...

Bethesda is good at making ALMOST good/great games, but it's got a really shitty track record for making games that are actually great lately. And the ways in which they fall just short rub me in all the wrong ways and just make me hate them more than I would if the game was legitimately shitty, because I can write off a legitimately shitty game. A game that comes so close that you know that if the developers had just given maybe one or two more half a shits and it could have been great?

Jesus, that pisses me off.

[Marc v4.0]

Hm, yeah I can see how that would really get your goat and then smack it around a little.

There is rumor ZeniMax might being buying up Obsidian, but even if that is just a rumor I hope they shove more Fallout work off on them...but there is a whole other set of troubles with that as obsidian can't seem to finish anything, just look at NV patch 1.02.

[bluestarultor]

If it's not going to be on the same engine, I wonder what the requirements will be like? This laptop is definitely not for gaming, and while it's starting to have problems (battery not recognized even though it charges fine, mainly), I'm probably not going to be in the market for a new one for a while as I finally start to strike out on my own (my area is to jobs what Raid is to ants).



EDIT: PS @ Krylo: Yeah, the animations are stored in separate files from anything related to the engine. There are tons of custom animations (and even more in custom poses) mods out there ranging from increasing the width of the males' gaits (which looks pretty darn good if you actually notice that kind of thing) to, well, take a look (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/cat.php?id=51). Given you're probably not logged in, that won't even account for all the adult stuff. When animations are the question, the only limitation is the skill of the animator.

[Arlia Janet]

Will the game have serious engine flaws? Yes.
Will the main quest be lackluster and a burden to complete? Yes.
Will there be fun, self-contained side quests with interesting treasure and colorful characters? Most likely.
Will community made content be incredible, imaginative and well worth the price of admission? Most definitely.

[bluestarultor]

Sorry for the necrobump, but more info has surfaced: http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a296929/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-details-revealed.html


Not mentioned (breaking my heart) is motion control support. Come on, guys! We know it's coming to PS3! With talk of dual-wield floating around, we all know people want in on that shit with the Move! Or even the Kinect! I just tossed around several ideas on my FF Wiki page of how the Kinect would be workable! Heck, with the Move, you could do double wands, wand and nav-controller, or standard controller, no problem!

Sell peripherals, sell the game, make the console releases actually offer something the PC version won't! It's good for everyone!

[Pip Boy]

I think the best way to enjoy Kinect on any game is to not own it.

[Krylo]

Not mentioned (breaking my heart) is motion control support. Come on, guys! We know it's coming to PS3! With talk of dual-wield floating around, we all know people want in on that shit with the Move! Or even the Kinect! I just tossed around several ideas on my FF Wiki page of how the Kinect would be workable! Heck, with the Move, you could do double wands, wand and nav-controller, or standard controller, no problem!

You haven't actually played any Wii games, have you?

[Pip Boy]

Motion control just doesn't seem like the right thing for this. Its for silly games that you don't care about. Oblivion 2, however, is serious business. It has double-handing. And double magic.

[Bells]

I'm saying right now, i will attempt a "Dual Shield Wielding" run on this game.

[Melfice]

Not mentioned (breaking my heart) is motion control support. Come on, guys! We know it's coming to PS3! With talk of dual-wield floating around, we all know people want in on that shit with the Move! Or even the Kinect! I just tossed around several ideas on my FF Wiki page of how the Kinect would be workable! Heck, with the Move, you could do double wands, wand and nav-controller, or standard controller, no problem!

If they add motion controls, you WILL spend time doing nothing but flailing your arms or your Move Wands.
There is no other way to add motion controls to a sword fighting game.
Magic would work, as we've seen with Sorcery, but sword fighting in these games would suck.

[Krylo]

So I just realized.

This is the new bethsoft engine.

Fallout games are now on bethsoft engine.

The new bethsoft engine has dual wielding.

...Next Fallout game... Fallout: Gun Katas?

[Bells]

...Next Fallout game... Fallout: Gun Katas?

This version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tINWl0gzQWI) or this version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIOxsYDHWGc&feature=related)?

i'm ok with both.

[Pip Boy]

this version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIOxsYDHWGc&feature=related)

RELOADING GUNS IS NOT WHAT BREASTESES ARE FOR!

[Krylo]

This version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tINWl0gzQWI) or this version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIOxsYDHWGc&feature=related)?

i'm ok with both.

Which one of those involves dual wielding?

[bluestarultor]

You haven't actually played any Wii games, have you?

Yes, and it pretty well sucked. On the other hand, this coming to the Wii? I think it would start the thing on fire.

Now the PS3 Move on the other hand could handle it just fine and is just superior in all ways. It controls better, the system has more power, etc. I was severely disappointed with the Wii when my cousin cracked it open for her birthday last year. The Move was everything they said it would be and is a joy to use, speaking from experience. Kinect, despite some lag, also works pretty well from what people say.

Motion control just doesn't seem like the right thing for this. Its for silly games that you don't care about. Oblivion 2, however, is serious business. It has double-handing. And double magic.

That's the beauty of having it come to real systems: they have normal controllers as a back-up. You wouldn't have to use motion controls if you didn't want to, but the option would be there if you did. Really, again, speaking from the perspective of the Move, you have several options at your disposal: SixAxis, SixAxis/Nav + Wand, and Wand x 2. Any of these options would be workable. The positioning system can easily stand in for analog sticks for movement and camera control, and aside from that, the Eye is also capable of head and body tracking for an easy implementation of things like sneaking which might otherwise be on the shoulder buttons. Just crouch to sneak. Body tracking would also be able to automatically determine laterality, so the game would know whether something was in your left or right hand.

Basically, the idea that motion controls can't be used for real games is uninformed. That kind of thinking is mostly the Wii's fault, but the industry as a whole needs to shake it and has the technology to do it now, just as much as "gamers" need to shake being labeled under a wide net and slapped with a stigma. The whole industry has an image problem and nobody is going to take it, or any of us, seriously if we don't start it ourselves.

If they add motion controls, you WILL spend time doing nothing but flailing your arms or your Move Wands.
There is no other way to add motion controls to a sword fighting game.
Magic would work, as we've seen with Sorcery, but sword fighting in these games would suck.

Why would it suck, exactly? If we're talking 1:1 sword fighting, which would be the whole point, then flailing your arms will not get you far. Or, to put it this way, any idiot can swing a sword, but it takes actual practice to swing it well. It's the same as button-mashing: it'll get you to a certain point, but it fails hard if the opponent knows what they're doing. Part of the immersion would be having your strikes and stabs and slashes put up against those of an AI opponent. Adding motion controls to a game like this would encourage creativity through freedom. And, if you get tired of it, simply go into the menu, switch it to the SixAxis, and plop your butt down on the couch.

See, adding motion controls to a game that's based on a controller is not that hard. Child of Eden will be compatible with both standard controllers and motion controls on both the PS3 and 360. For examples that already have sword fighting, both Dynasty Warriors and No More Heroes are coming to the PS3 and will allow for both standard and motion control schemes. There are tons of games that won't be Move-only. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_compatible_with_PlayStation_Move) Kinect is also shown to be capable with a few titles, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kinect_games) but Microsoft seems to be trying to force the system at the moment.




I mean, really, motion controls are not a dirty thing, guys. They offer a helluva lot of freedom. There's no reason to think that we need serious games to be bound to standard controllers forever any more than there was to think that games would be bound to physical media forever.

[Krylo]

Have you played with the motion plus?

Both Sony and Nintendo claim 1:1, and while it's obvious looking around that Sony is better than Nintendo, with everyone claiming 1:1 in 3D space and everyone being full of shit in claiming 1:1 in 3D space, it's hard to actually decide how close/far apart they are.

I do know, however, that even with Nintendo's Motion Plus, which DOES follow you pretty well on screen, and is good for things like Archery and what not, it's absolute shit for sword fighting.

With no force feedback, and with trying to match movements to something happening three feet in front of you, sword fighting just doesn't work. If your arm doesn't stop when you hit a shield or a sword, but your avatar's does, it fucks everything up. If your avatar's doesn't stop when it hits a shield or a sword, then it destroys immersion and ruins your hit detection. And either way (whether because your avatar isn't following you right or because you're effectively wielding a super lightsaber), just swinging your arm around spasticly like a moron ends up being the superior strategy.

Motion controlled sword fighting, 1:1 or not, isn't going to work unless it's something like the MGS game for kinetic, or DQ swords, where your sword just goes through everything forever and always, or we're in the super future with holodecks and tactile holograms.

And don't get me wrong, DQ Swords was fantastic (and is on the VERY short list of Wii games I would recommend) and the MGS game where you roll around cutting shit up looks fun too, but it's just not something that can work in a game like Skyrim where they try to make the sword fighting more realistic/gritty.

[bluestarultor]

Well, to be frank, Oblivion wasn't exactly "real and gritty" about your weapon strikes. They pretty much just continued on no matter what. Maybe glanced off if they were lucky and you were being generous.

I mean, really, the glancing off approach is 1) more realistic in most cases anyway and 2) easier to pull off because it still approximates the player's own motion in this case. Things rarely hit squarely enough that they just stop, and if they do, it's enough to put both people off-balance unless one of them has a really solid stance and the other doesn't. In short, there's no reason to think that, playing by largely real-world rules, motion controls could not be workable in this case.



Also, this is a pet peeve of mine, but really, asking for motion controls to react to things stopping you is low-hanging fruit. That shit's unreasonable and everyone knows it, and it's just too convenient of an argument. Coming up with solutions to sidestep the issue really isn't all that hard. I did it in ten seconds in this case.

[Krylo]

Well, to be frank, Oblivion wasn't exactly "real and gritty" about your weapon strikes. They pretty much just continued on no matter what. Maybe glanced off if they were lucky and you were being generous.

I mean, really, the glancing off approach is 1) more realistic in most cases anyway and 2) easier to pull off because it still approximates the player's own motion in this case. Things rarely hit squarely enough that they just stop, and if they do, it's enough to put both people off-balance unless one of them has a really solid stance and the other doesn't. In short, there's no reason to think that, playing by largely real-world rules, motion controls could not be workable in this case.You never actually PLAYED oblivion, did you?

A block could throw you or your opponent off balance (depending on who was blocking), and blocking followed by a quick attack or two while their guard is thrown was the primary method of sword and board fighting in oblivion. It only glanced off or continued through if there was no block.



Also, this is a pet peeve of mine, but really, asking for motion controls to react to things stopping you is low-hanging fruit. That shit's unreasonable and everyone knows it, and it's just too convenient of an argument. Coming up with solutions to sidestep the issue really isn't all that hard. I did it in ten seconds in this case.Of course it's not going to happen, but hey guess what: Sword fighting is going to suck absolute balls until it does.

The point wasn't saying they should make it happen, the point was that this shit can't happen, and as a result sword fighting games aren't going to be fun unless you're using a magical super sword or light saber or something that cuts through anything and everything 100% of the time with no slowing or stopping.

Even a glancing blow that throws the avatar's sword off course is going to fuck up your shit in a motion controlled sword fight.

[bluestarultor]

*sigh*

Yes, I played Oblivion, but I was operating under the assumption that a block was going to take control away from the player anyway, y'know, like it always has. Somehow I don't think we'll be forcing the player to flail off-balance anytime soon, either.

The point is that, no, the system would not be absolutely perfect. But then, really, why are we advocating sticking to buttons? Because that holds no similarity whatsoever to the actions on screen. Maybe someone prefers buttons, and another person prefers actually getting into the action, imperfect though it may be. Why is it acceptable for control to be taken away from buttons, but not arm motions? How do buttons get a pass on immersion when they don't listen to you for a second, but when you're waving a plastic toy around, suddenly it's expected to be real?

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to say that it won't be a perfect system, because it won't be, but throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't make much sense, either. Motion controls would be workable in this case. Not perfect, but they could work well. As an option, no less. I don't know why people are so adverse to the idea.

[Krylo]

*sigh*

Yes, I played Oblivion, but I was operating under the assumption that a block was going to take control away from the player anyway, y'know, like it always has. Somehow I don't think we'll be forcing the player to flail off-balance anytime soon, either.

The point is that, no, the system would not be absolutely perfect. But then, really, why are we advocating sticking to buttons? Because that holds no similarity whatsoever to the actions on screen. Maybe someone prefers buttons, and another person prefers actually getting into the action, imperfect though it may be. Why is it acceptable for control to be taken away from buttons, but not arm motions? How do buttons get a pass on immersion when they don't listen to you for a second, but when you're waving a plastic toy around, suddenly it's expected to be real?

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to say that it won't be a perfect system, because it won't be, but throwing the baby out with the bath water doesn't make much sense, either. Motion controls would be workable in this case. Not perfect, but they could work well. As an option, no less. I don't know why people are so adverse to the idea.

Because Blues...

Ok, let's say you and I are sword fighting via Move. There's three ways Move can do this.

Way 1: Our avatar's motions don't follow our movements much at all, and our avatars can lock swords, or stop a sword dead with a shield or just glance it off depending.

Way 2: Our avatar's motions MOSTLY follow our movements, but control is never really taken away, as glancing blows and what not are implemented for anything that would stop a sword, followed by the game quickly realigning the avatar to the player.

Way 3: Our avatar's motions exactly follow our movements and there's no impact or whatever shown when our blades hit each other or shields or anything else.

Issue with way 1: You attack, I block, your arm is still going this way, your character's sword is going that way, I make short work of you while you've lost all control, not because of a game mechanic--but because of a controller issue. The alternate is equally possible, I attack, you block, my arm follows through, my character's doesn't, this basically has the effect of throwing me horribly off balance when I shouldn't be, and you kill me. It doesn't really matter how much we dedicate ourselves to these attacks, except lesser dedication is only going to mean getting run through once while there's the difference between avatar and real life you instead of slashed five times or whatever.

Issue with way 2: You try to take this shit serious, I just flail my arm at you like a retarded spaz. My sword is moving way more than yours ever could, I'm not getting tired or being slowed by the weight and heft of the sword, and there's no way you're going to block all my motions, and I wittle you down. You maybe get a few attacks in here and there during the half second retransition, but I'm still attacking faster than you and chances are I'll come out on top.

Issue with way 3: Pretty much exactly the same as way 2, except worse because now you're going to have an even harder time following my avatar's motions to try to stop attacks.

In a controller based setting none of this is an issue, I push a button to swing, you push a button to block, I'm stopped for a second, you attack, I block, etc. No one is thrown obviously off balance unless they make the mistake of pulling out a power attack when the other person is capable of blocking it.

But with the motion control settings, every single time a player attacks they're going to be EFFECTIVELY thrown off balance, even if they aren't really.

That's the problem.

[bluestarultor]

You make good points, Krylo. I actually was shooting mostly for #2 in what I was describing, plus properly putting the avatar off-balance for a block before having it quickly re-orient on the player. I mean, I personally don't have a problem with that setup, but I understand better now why you disagree.

[Mr.Bookworm]

So, I just got the latest Game Informer thing, and even setting my optimism and expectations down low this is looking pretty good.

They've overhauled the horrendous menu system into something that sounds actually usable, they mugged the perks from Fallout in a back alley, the leveling system is now not a horrible abomination unto god, spellcasting is less crappy and there's a new system of magic you access by finding ancient ruins and killing dragons, you can now kill things with a bow (better range and damage, but slower rate of fire), the story and sidequests and stuff now actually respond to what you've done, enemy A.I. isn't all charge-and-hack, dual-wielding seems pretty neat, and the dialogue system doesn't make me want to slam my head into a brick wall until dead.

Parts of it will undoubtedly suck, but I'm guessing it will at least be better then Oblivion.

[Marc v4.0]

Bow killing isn't a new thing to the Elder Scrolls series

[Mr.Bookworm]

Let me rephrase that.

You can now kill things with a bow without doing that ridiculous backwards dance thing I always ended up doing, pumping like 20 arrows into someone before they went down. And you don't have to get within like fifty feet to have a hope of hitting things. And rogues can consistently one-hit stealth kill people with bows.

Speaking of which, backpedaling apparently doesn't work anymore, because they turned the speed down for backwards movement.

[Marc v4.0]

It must be a difference of playstyles then, because I never had to fire more then 3 arrows at anything to bring it down without going all sneak-hax on it. I only kept a blades skill up so i could deal with those damn skeletons.

Backpedaling is an important part of any first or third person action game and shame on them.

[Pip Boy]

It must be a difference of playstyles then, because I never had to fire more then 3 arrows at anything to bring it down without going all sneak-hax on it. I only kept a blades skill up so i could deal with those damn skeletons.

Backpedaling is an important part of any first or third person action game and shame on them.

You apparently either had the best bow in the game all the time or never got past level 2, because it gets to the point where average enemies take about half a plex arrows before they go down.

EDIT: Anything on how magic is going to work? I like that you could enchant weapons and armor in the other game, but hated soulstones, and making my own spells was really fun, yet poorly balanced. Almost all spells made were either way overpowered or underpowered, not much of a middle ground.

EDIT: More specifically, are they going to address the fact that a mage was undoubtedly the most powerful kind of character in the game, followed by rogues, followed by those poor fools who tried to wear armor?

[Mr.Bookworm]

You apparently either had the best bow in the game all the time or never got past level 2, because it gets to the point where average enemies take about half a plex arrows before they go down.

Thiiiiis. At level 20, I ratcheted the difficulty all the way down, and it still was taking me four or five arrows to kill things.

EDIT: Anything on how magic is going to work? I like that you could enchant weapons and armor in the other game, but hated soulstones, and making my own spells was really fun, yet poorly balanced. Almost all spells made were either way overpowered or underpowered, not much of a middle ground.

Enchanting armor and weapons is definitely still in, but it's sounding like they're giving up spellcrafting in favor of actually making the default spells worth a damn. You can also apparently dual-wield the same spell for some boosts to that spell.

EDIT: More specifically, are they going to address the fact that a mage was undoubtedly the most powerful kind of character in the game, followed by rogues, followed by those poor fools who tried to wear armor?

No idea. Given the way leveling works, which is classless now, I'm gonna go ahead and guess just based on what I've seen so far that the best combination will probably end up being some sort of mage/warrior hybrid (1-handed weapon+spell). Really depends on how prevalent mana potions are.

You also can't craft ridiculously broken spells anymore, sooooooo.

Backpedaling is an important part of any first or third person action game and shame on them.

If it's any comfort, it apparently had nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with the fact that character models in third-person view (another thing they're apparently working on) look ridiculous when they're running backwards full-speed.

[Marc v4.0]

I have no idea, then. I just loaded up my save to make sure I wasn't just wearing the rose-tinted glasses and I have no problem just wasting fools and monsters left and right with the difficulty slider at half.

I do have a really bitching bow, so I might just be using one of the best bows.

[Nikose Tyris]

Using a rusty iron bow, I can one shot anything from a sneak, and it's about 3 arrows max without it.

Enchanting is, in Morrowind and Oblivion, very similar. Don't expect any significant change.

I play Morrowind/Oblivion in FPS and I really hope I don't get strong-armed into a third person view.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Using a rusty iron bow, I can one shot anything from a sneak, and it's about 3 arrows max without it.

We have had very very different gameplay experiences then.

Enchanting is, in Morrowind and Oblivion, very similar. Don't expect any significant change.

Wait, you're saying that because nothing changed between the last two games, nothing will change in this one?

That's... not very solid logic.

Particularly when they're overhauling the magic system (Mysticism is gone, by the way) enchanting is based on.

I play Morrowind/Oblivion in FPS and I really hope I don't get strong-armed into a third person view.

FPS is still the default, they're just making the 3PS view non-sucky.

[Krylo]

If I remember right, a few bows do what Nikose/Marc are talking about. Most do what Book/Pip are.

Might also be some discrepancies in important stats and archery skill between you guys. Might also be someone is using the arcane archery mod (which makes Archery pretty bitchin').

Anyway, a buff to bow damage is welcome, as that in the beginning of the game bows were kind of shitty with how close you had to get and how 'much' damage they did. Later on they got awesome, yeah, but eh.

Speaking of, I never really had a good powerful mage character in oblivion for the same reason. In the beginning of the game magic was pretty shitty, didn't do enough damage, drained mana too quick, etc. Once you get the ability to make your own spells it gets better, but by that point I had gone most the game stabbing stuff and my magic skill sucked and fuck training it up then (and I do like to avoid console commanding things like that).

Though that may have been because I was using Oscuro's for every game past the first, and as a result was mostly fighting enemies at higher level than myself as opposed to everyone being balanced to my level.

[Yrcrazypa]

Yeah, playing as a sneaky archer/thief I must have had a shitty bow, because I could never kill anything quickly. Nothing could catch me either, so it really was a moot point. Maxing out speed and athletics was useful.

[Sithdarth]

I'd have to fire it up to be sure but I had an ebony style bow that added something like 25 or 30 damage of some element and then I think they were ebony or silver base arrow of storm or some such that added on an additional 20-25 lightening damage in something like a 10 yard radius over something like 3 or 4 seconds. All of which I found just wandering around. Actually I might have enchanted the bow with a sigil stone. Needless to say after Alchemy and casting magic into the sky to train myself to level 54 and using trainers to max my archery there really wasn't much that would survive an arrow even if I wasn't sneaking. My favorite past time was running around the Imperial city shooting guards as they attempted to pelt me with arrows just to see them fly into the air and several yards backwards from the giant elemental explosions caused by my bow.

My approach to the game is why be good at one style of combat when I can just put in the time, and money, to be good at both magic, melee, and ranged combat.

[Pip Boy]

I got through a great deal of the game using a spell that had 2 effects.

One effect was to deal massive fire damage.
The other effect was to make me invisible for 2 seconds.

Before the invisibility wore off, I would cast a real invisibility spell that lasted longer and costed less mana, since its not combined with a damage effect.

The result was that enemies never even knew I was there. I just herped and derped until it was ridiculous.

Also, my complaints about magic weren't just that magic is more powerful than melee, ranged, or sneaky, but that being a mage makes you good at all of those things in addition to being good at magic. There is no point in a lockpicking skill if you can simply cast lockpicking spells. There is no point in being good at shooting arrows if fireballs are more effective, and paralysis spells help to keep them at a distance. There is no point in learning to be sneaky when invisibility spells bypass the need to even give sneaking any effort. Instead of hours of crouching around dark corridors, simply throw up an invisibility effect and spring past everything.

So a level 20 mage is not only better than a level 20 archer because he is more versatile, he is simultaneously better at melee fighting than a level 20 warrior, better at ranged fighting than a level 20 archer, better at sneaking and lock-picking than a level 20 thief. Its insane.

EDIT: The only disadvantage is that mana is limited, but by making your spells carefully you can conserve mana while still being very powerful, and stacking willpower well enough keeps it regenerating almost as fast as you use it.

EDIT AGAIN: And since having a higher skill in something makes a spell of X power cheaper to cast, enchanting your gear (something restricted to full members of the mage's guild) can raise your skills at certain spell types above 100*, making even super-powerful spells cheap to cast. One of my characters was a mage that stacked destruction and willpower so well that I could just derp everything to death in one shot of my custom lightning spell (Hand of Zeus) and then regenerate my mana fast enough to cast it over and over for a very long time before running out.

EDIT ANOTHER TIME: Oh yeah, there's also the fact that they get all those light and night-vision spells. Normally you can only get night vision by being an ugly cat that everyone hates or a vampire, in which case daylight burns. Nah. I'll just cast night-vision. 10 mana well spent. Detect life couldn't hurt either.

I mean, I understand you're not supposed to be overly metagame in something like Oblivion, so Im not going to go casting fire spells on myself to raise Destruction, but to have the ability to create my own spells and not use custom spells in interesting and powerful combinations would just be stupid. Theres more to being a mage than running around shooting lightning. Unless you're really, really good at shooting lightning, that is.

EDIT: On the rare occasion you run out of mana, just summon a big mean minion to fight them for you for a little while while you pop mana pots or hide in a corner to regen mana.

*Apparently they've patched this and only acrobatics/athletics can be raised above 100 via Fortify effects

[Red Mage Black]

While I don't QUITE have an argument for the system, these are the things I wish they'd bring back to Elder Scrolls:
* Spears - Really did add to the variety of weapons you could use and could technically add a new weapons category like 'Piercing'. Though I could see the problems with that being bows in the Marksman category.
* Levitate Spells - Something to act as a slow fall or feather fall.

And things I wish they'd put in:

* Arcane Archery (Like the mod)

* Tower Shields - That instead of reducing damage from attacks, null them completely, of course with the drawback of how goddamn heavy they are. Which of course would effect Athletics and Acrobatics as armor usually does.

* Customized armor options - I'm not just talking about enchantments, but about pieces of armor to wear in general. It does sound like a bit of micromanagement to get the best customization, but it also provides you the chance to have your character look unique outside of looking like many other NPCs with the same armor set.

* Weapon Customization - Like above, only making designs specifically for your weapons so they're unique to you. Like hilt color, blade/hilt design and the ability to encrust the hilt with whatever gems you may find. Also the ability to enchant the gems before you put them in or have them already with effects when placed in a weapon. Of course, even that has a bit of micromanagement to it, but for anyone with a creative mind, I'm sure the effort would be worth it.

* Throwing Weapons - This one is a bit of a doozy, if I say so myself. If we're aiming at medieval like stuff, I'm sure something like hatchets and throwing knives wouldn't be too far fetched for the game. Of course, you really wouldn't be able to enchant them, but possibly enchant the pocket they're carried in? Not sure how that would work, but just maybe from being in contact with the pocket?

* Customizable Clothing - I'm talking about being able to set the color of your clothing, the style of your clothing... etc. Yeah, more micromanagement, but as I said for armor and weapons, the truly creative minds would probably find the effort well worth it. Even if you don't wear clothing much and more likely armor, it would be a nice change of pace.

* Weapon Idea: Rapier - A more stylish and sophisticated type of blade. While not as strong and powerful as a longsword, broadsword, hammer, axe or mace, it allows you to make multiple strikes quickly and efficiently while dancing around your opponent. I can see the problem though around enemies with shields and heavy armor, but nothing is perfect.

Sorry I really have nothing to input, but I just thought I'd share my ideas. I've really had no problems with Oblivion in the past outside of never being able to finish the Vampire Cure quest cause the stupid Argonian servant got stuck in the room where the Countess was and never moved.

[Mannix]

Let me rephrase that.

You can now kill things with a bow without doing that ridiculous backwards dance thing I always ended up doing, pumping like 20 arrows into someone before they went down. And you don't have to get within like fifty feet to have a hope of hitting things. And rogues can consistently one-hit stealth kill people with bows.

Speaking of which, backpedaling apparently doesn't work anymore, because they turned the speed down for backwards movement.

After reading the arrow argument I think I realize the difference: if you just click the bow to attack the arrows go out at less than full draw and do piss for damage, but if you click and hold for a second or two they do much much more damage. also you can hit stuff from max draw distance just about if you account for gravity and are firing from the hold position. the only time i ever really had problems was on heavily armored opponents that i couldn't get the drop on - a lot of the arena fights for instance (though there you could sort of hop up between a pillar and a wall outside of mele range and just plunk away). but with the drop not a lot of stuff put up a fight.



the most broken part of the game were sigil stones that you could use to enchant your gear for chameleon. one of those on a couple pieces of gear rendered you permanently, irrevocably invisible. i used to like running around an punching guards in the face once or twice just to watch them run around in circles screaming. also those stones were super easy to get if you saved just before you grabbed a stone from the flame. the stones are randomly generated so all you had to do was keep reloading your save until you got a stone you wanted. made the game way too easy though.

[Yrcrazypa]

After reading the arrow argument I think I realize the difference: if you just click the bow to attack the arrows go out at less than full draw and do piss for damage, but if you click and hold for a second or two they do much much more damage. also you can hit stuff from max draw distance just about if you account for gravity and are firing from the hold position.
.

That's what I did, and I did learn how to hit things pretty damn well from max draw distance range. But things would still take several hits to kill, even with multiple sneak attacks. I'm still confused at how people got bows that could kill things in three hits or less.

[Sithdarth]

I actually went back to my old 360 save and checked. I was actually confusing two separate characters. One has a bow that does 20 fire damage and arrows that do 25 frost damage on strike. This plus like 88 archery and level 53 makes for sneak attack kills on most anything. The other has a bow that does 20 frost damage and arrows that do 40 lightening damage in 10 ft for 2 seconds. Even at level 48 with only 55 archery and without a sneak attack he one shots guards. They sort of pop 10 feet into the air when I hit them and there lightening damage drains all there health before they can hit the ground. Unless I sneak attack them in which case they just die. These aoe arrows are really fun with the guards group because if you hit the one in the middle they all go flying and land in crumpled heaps. It's like shooting little nuclear missiles into a Renaissance fair.

[Pip Boy]

... Level 53....

Isn't the game made to only scale up to like 20?

EDIT: Im not denying that later levels exist, but isn't that kind of what the devs decided was the 'endgame' level where all the enemies, items, and quest rewards stop improving?

[Sithdarth]

I don't know probably. I just made all my class skills and skills I got racial bonuses for physical skills and then put all the lowest skills I could find, i.e. magic and alchemy, as primary skills. Then I just went around eating things and making potions to up my alchemy and then casting spells on myself to level. Not that hard really. Of course I was one hitting guards long before I was in the 50s and even at 53 the physical damage alone is no were near high enough to one shot a guard. The only real benefit of being level 53 is the 600 or so health I have naturally without any buffs and having all my stats but luck up to or above 100. Plus all my major skills at 100 due to needing that to max my level.

[bluestarultor]

Isn't the game made to only scale up to like 20?

EDIT: Im not denying that later levels exist, but isn't that kind of what the devs decided was the 'endgame' level where all the enemies, items, and quest rewards stop improving?

Enemy types scale up in level to level 20. The ultimate enemy of each type scales to your level after that.

In other news, BEARDS CONFIRMED (http://www.destructoid.com/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-perks-random-quests-beards--191262.phtml) (among other things)! :dance:

[Terisse]

Going back to a lore aspect on this, I am going to cite a nice little source:

Nords. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nord)
Skyrim itself. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Skyrim)
If the designers stay true to the lore proper, this is actually going to be a far more interesting game than given credit. I admit, being in the center of specifically human civilization in Tamriel does have its downsides, but consider than skyrim is bordered by Cyrodiil, Morrowind and High Rock, I expect a fair mixing of races, with the second majority going to Imperials, Redguard and Dunmer.

Also: A quote from a book entitled "The Third Door"

He taught her the barbed axes of the Orcs bold,
The six-foot-long axes favored in Winterhold,
The hollow-bladed axes of the Elves of the West,
Which whistle when they swing through flesh.

Bethesda, you damn well better.

S'all I've got to contribute.

[Pip Boy]

HERE IS WHAT I AM HOPING FOR FROM THIS NEW GAME:

- A new engine. The current one is outdated and ugly and old.
- NPCs that don't all have the same ugly stupid face.
- Re-balanced ranged combat including magic
- An enchanting system that does not hate its user. Using a full grand soul gem to get a measly 20 point Fortify Magick effect costing 2400 gold is fucking stupid. The way soul gem levels scale in Enchanting is also stupid. A grand soul gem/black soul gem usually gets you about 1.5 times the effect of a petty one.
- Magic to be more powerful at low levels and less powerful at high levels, but still favors intelligent use of it over lolilightningu
- A better curve on mana efficiency. At level 50 of a magic, a spell's mana cost is "effectiveness/1.3". At 100 its "effectiveness/5"
- more pending when I think of more things to bitch about
- The ability to remove spells from your spellbook. Holy shit. These custom spells I made yesterday are like tatoos you find after a night of drinking that you don't remember ever getting. I don't know what I was thinking at the time and I want to know who the fuck Karen is.
- All instances of stealth should be replaced by the Fallout system with the (Caution) warning.

THINGS THAT ARE TOTALLY FREAKING DANDY OR NEED ONLY MINOR TWEAKS

-Better explanations for the special melee attacks. Most people don't seem to even notice that you can do things like disarm and knockback opponents in melee combat. Other than this, melee seems good.
-Alchemy is amazing and awesome and wonderful and good.