Talking about Final fantasy Main Characters

[Bells]

So, playing Final Fantasy Tactics on the PSP... with the new Translation and voice acting... i couldn't help but wonder that Ramza seems to be one of the more Mature and well composed leads i've ever known in a Final Fantasy game.

Not to forget that the Entire cast of FFT is actually pretty compeling. But paying attention to the new translation, Ramza just stood up for me in a way i didn't knew before. The guy shows maturity, growth, responsibility, vision and a sense of Justice and Duty that would put, pretty much everyone from FF4 to FF12 as mere children

The only other character like that in the FF universe i known and felt "This is a Hero. This is a Leader" is Warrior of Light from Dissidia (where he pretty much got all the Characterization he has).

[Drownball-Champ]

It's been awhile since I've played FF4, but wasn't Cecil fairly mature and level-headed?

[Bells]

Almost... but Cecil has "Bro Issues" while Ramza, as soon as he understand his Brothers are Plotting for evil goes "Fuck those Dicks!" So, Ramza still beats Cecil there

[Doc ock rokc]

Almost... but Cecil has "Bro Issues" while Ramza, as soon as he understand his Brothers are Plotting for evil goes "Fuck those Dicks!" So, Ramza still beats Cecil there

Its not so much "Bro issues" its that his only family member is Under mind control. Its a rather serious thing for him to kill someone he as both idolized and learns is part of his long lost family that is fighting pretty much against his will.

[Magus]

Ramza has to fight the only "good" brother's zombie, though. That had to feel bad. Plus the Beoulve family name is pretty much wiped out, so even though his father Balbanes was a cool dude everything he worked for is undone and Ramza has to live as a fugitive for the rest of his life with the knowledge that he himself was part of the family's downfall (besides the fact that his one brother is a patricidal and regicidal douche demon, I mean).

Crap is pretty traumatizing all in all.

Cecil's pretty cool, tho, so are all the FFV and FFVI main characters, not really anything wrong with any of 'dem folks. Zidane was pretty awesome, too.

[Krylo]

There's a difference between fighting a brother who wants to kill you and the horrible corpse zombie of another brother and fighting a brother who is mind controlled. In the former you are fighting for your survival and putting to rest a loved one's soul. In the latter you are murdering a family member who is, in all reality, innocent of any crimes.

Also: Cecil was a paladin. Ramza was a mercenary who worked with dark knights. There's going to be a slight difference in their respect for human life in there.

[Kim]

Cecil's respect for human life is on of the plot points that kicks the story off, after all.

[Flarecobra]

How about the FF2 cast?

[Kim]

They made an FF2?

[Geminex]

Hmm... Firion, Guy, Leon and Maria?

They were allright. But Guy had no personality at all, and the rest can pretty much be summed up with individual tropes. The story was fun, but the main characters didn't contribute that much. Though the secondary cast was pretty good.

[Flarecobra]

Probably why they got their own storyline in the remakes.

[Geminex]

Yeah, that was fun. Could've been a bit longer, but eh. I got to have Joseph beat anti-Chaos to death with his BARE HANDS. It was worth it.

[PyrosNine]

GEMINEX! You genius! You have given me reason to try another game to go all fists! FF2 was one of the only games to reward straight out fisticuffs in a game where you could equip anyone with anything! (Except FF12, that one was cool too, the "brawler" license. I leveled up to the point that I went back to the first area with just Vaan and punched out the T-rex.)

But let's see, great FF mains? Balthier was pretty awesome. Captain EuroFantasy Kirk, in some ways.

Tifa was great too, because aside from her being the obvious girlfriend and eye candy, despite lacking the reasons most of the other characters had that lead them to fight Shinra, she was still the one who ran out to fight with giant mechs, humongous fauna, the embodiments of entropy and renewal, and the testtube clone of a evil alien virus monster that's hopped up on lifestream juice, WITH HER BARE GODDAMN HANDS.

The guy in 8 who did that too was nowhere near as crazy/awesome.

Wakka was an awesome character, sure he was dogmatic and racist, but most of all he was a big brotherly fellow, and his greatest character development was one of those winning over the other. There is a reason why Tidus's signature weapon is the Brotherhood, after all.

Ramza and GBA equivalent, Marche, are pretty damn awesome fellows, having the balls to wreck the very nature of their (sociopolitical/magicaldreamland) reality.

Benjamin was in a game that was described as "Final Fantasy" for idiots. (it was the even in the ads) and yet he gave off the quintessential "FF Hero" vibe nonetheless.

Dissidia was a mixed bag, becuase it gave some character to the generic Warriors of Light from both 1 and 3, but it also gave some simplified and exaggerated character traits to other characters, making things feel like the X-men Evolution version of FF.

[Bells]

Cloud is particularly annoying in Dissidia. I mean, who says "I won't sleep well tonight" after winning a Fight? GAWD! Squall had his Douche moments too.

As far as main characters go, i still really Enjoy Agrias from FFT though, I still think she should be in Dissidia. That would be awesome. There is this one scene in the Trap at the execution site where she learns that Ramza is a Beoulve and when Ramza tries to tell her that even though he is of the same family, he is unlike his brothers she just replied something amongst the lines of "What? You think i would doubt you NOW?!" that was pretty awesome.

[bluestarultor]

Sadly, Dissidia is numbered titles only. Everyone seems to hold Agrias in high regard (she got pretty darn far in FFWiki's Magicite Madness II tournament and even took out Sephy), which has piqued my interest in her, but it seems I'll be forever curious.

I have to say I like most of the characters of FF in some respect. I liked how Cloud's personality and even sexuality was up to the player, for one, and Squall just seemed like a step back in several ways. You really did roleplay Cloud, and it's pretty much the first and last time you had that. I adore Zidane, and Bartz is just plain hilarious at times. Cecil was very much a man in every respect. He was mature and capable and did what needed to be done, but also was an emotional being, protective of others, and pretty darn complex given it was Square's first real attempt at writing a full cast. FF6 is a mixed bag for me. I personally don't like Terra simply because, well, click for a rant (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/User:Bluestarultor#Rant_of_the_Moment). I am aware of the logical issues with some of it, but like any rant, it was written in the heat of the moment. It's not that she didn't eventually grow into an okay character, but it took too long. I did, however, like Sabin and Edgar a ton, and Locke was amusing, and I have to say Celes' growth was pretty good. Tidus could have been worse in X, and now that I'm giving XII a second chance, I'm finding Vaan could be worse. He's not great by a long shot, but he has a few traits that are sort of respectable. The cast of 13 isn't all that likable for the most part, but they are all very human, which makes them more tolerable, because you can see in the flashbacks what they're like on a good day and better appreciate what they're all going through.

[Jagos]

Someone on this site once did a great write up about FF7, where they truly explained how Cloud was pretty well thought out and confused. I know that a lot of people thought of him as angsty but it wasn't the case when I saw it. Sadly, wherever that writeup is, I can't remember who did it...

Fine, I guess amnesia is as good a way (or at least as common a way) to start the game as any.

I'd say cut her some slack, she does get better and I know first impressions are lasting, but she got a double whammy of BS handed to her. Slave to Kefka (Psycho bastard) PLUS amnesia? Think about all of the people she killed for that guy and knowing she couldn't stop it? I think her being just a tad frail is kinda justified in that regard.

[bluestarultor]

Someone on this site once did a great write up about FF7, where they truly explained how Cloud was pretty well thought out and confused. I know that a lot of people thought of him as angsty but it wasn't the case when I saw it. Sadly, wherever that writeup is, I can't remember who did it...



I'd say cut her some slack, she does get better and I know first impressions are lasting, but she got a double whammy of BS handed to her. Slave to Kefka (Psycho bastard) PLUS amnesia? Think about all of the people she killed for that guy and knowing she couldn't stop it? I think her being just a tad frail is kinda justified in that regard.

As I mentioned, I really don't hold the beginning against her. I actually felt very sympathetic to her stumbling blindly through an unfamiliar cave. It's just that she spends too much of the early game effectively paralyzed and moping for my tastes. I mean I get it's understandable, but that kind of thing isn't particularly endearing to me. Vivi had the whole uncertainty and awkwardness thing going, too, but when push came to shove, he actually threw a fireball at something, while Terra simply didn't do that kind of thing on her own. I exclude battles, since those are player-controlled and not in the main writing. I mean, yeah, there's some scripted stuff in battles that addresses her ability to use magic, but you'd be an idiot to not be doing so during normal play, so it's kind of like saying "HA! YOU STEPPED ON THE FLOOR!" and then having something happen because of it.

What I was really hoping for was some hint of self-preservation, or an instance of lashing out, or something showing she could use her powers to protect herself without it being an Esper-induced freak-out outside of battle, anything to show she actually had some teeth, and she just spent too much of the game not giving me that.



Edit: I guess what I should say, going back to the Vivi comparison, is that at different points in my life, I was both Terra, and later Vivi. I have to say I much prefer looking back to my Vivi phase. If I'd never gotten to that point, I'd never be where I am right now. That phase is the basis for who I am today and I can mark the shift between the two phases down to about a one-month period. There are some important differences between the two, the main one being that Vivi, despite being just as awkward and alone and confused and in a bad situation because of what he is, has spirit that Terra just doesn't when you first meet her.

[Raiden]

Auron.


I...I really don't think I need to defend my choice here.

[Jagos]

Auron.


I...I really don't think I need to defend my choice here.

I see your Auron and raise you a Jecht.

[Raiden]

I see your Auron and raise you a Jecht.

I see your Jecht and I don't do a damn thing because I don't want to live in a world where someone can try to compare an alcoholic abusive father with Auron, a man who was thrown down a mountain with his neck twisted 180 degrees, decided he had better shit to do, and walked it off.

[bluestarultor]

I see your Auron and raise you a Jecht.

I see your Jecht and I don't do a damn thing because I don't want to live in a world where someone can try to compare an alcoholic abusive father with Auron, a man who was thrown down a mountain with his neck twisted 180 degrees, decided he had better shit to do, and walked it off.

Mind you, Auron ALSO acts as somewhat of an alcoholic (http://i56.tinypic.com/vwwplk.jpg) abusive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN5Emptr3tE&feature=related) father (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Auron) to Tidus and the same badassery could probably be said for Jecht if he'd been so lucky instead of being turned into the heart of a demon whale.

[Jagos]

I see your Jecht and I don't do a damn thing because I don't want to live in a world where someone can try to compare an alcoholic abusive father with Auron, a man who was thrown down a mountain with his neck twisted 180 degrees, decided he had better shit to do, and walked it off.

True, but who sent Auron in the first place? ;)

[EVILNess]

True, but who sent Auron in the first place? ;)

I know he said Jecht sent him, but I always assumed it was his own initiative since Jecht was kinda incapacitated by being a 10 story flying whale of doom.

[Nique]

The only other character like that in the FF universe i known and felt "This is a Hero. This is a Leader" is Warrior of Light from Dissidia (where he pretty much got all the Characterization he has).


That's only becuase literally every other character reeks of 'im a lone wolf' emo-ness.

Yeah, even Auron.

[bluestarultor]

I know he said Jecht sent him, but I always assumed it was his own initiative since Jecht was kinda incapacitated by being a 10 story flying whale of doom.

No, because Auron is acting on Jecht's behalf, as shown by him talking to SIN. So Jecht turned into a psychic 10 story flying whale of doom.

[Kim]

Even Zach?

[Nique]

Even Zach?


He was more like, way too eager about being in SOLIDERALLCAPS.

[bluestarultor]

Even Zach?

Zack made everyone else emo. ;)

[Kim]

He was more like, way too eager about being in SOLIDERALLCAPS.

TBH, I was kinda hoping you'd roll with "Especially Zach."

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Fuck Auron. Worst character in a final fanasy ever.

[shiney]

I would say Jecht's character development showed him to be more altruistic and heroic than Auron, and thusly more mature in the end.

[Kim]

Fuck Auron. Worst character in a final fanasy ever.

Vincent.

[bluestarultor]

Vincent.

Only because they're basically the same guy. Dark pasts, never say much, when they do talk, it's important, red and black outfits that hide their mouths...

[Bells]

4 pages and no yuffie Hate? I'm actually proud of you guys!

[Kim]

Only because they're basically the same guy. Dark pasts, never say much, when they do talk, it's important, red and black outfits that hide their mouths...

Auron has the better outfit though. Vincent has the worst character design in FFVII as far as I can recall.

[Bells]

Really? Worst than Barret's?

I mean, Auron really is just an Updated version of Vincent's Look... Barret was Mr T.

[POS Industries]

Barret was Mr T.
And this is a bad thing because...........?

[Kim]

Auron really is just an Updated version of Vincent's Look...

Auron comes off as an overly flashy samurai, and the only consistent thing about character designs in X seemed to be that they were overdone. Vincent is just... Vincent.

[Nique]

...overdone.

'Hey give her a couple belts'
'ohwhat make the entire character a series of belts surethingboss hey I feel jittery what'sinthiscoffee'

[Kim]

All thing's considered, Auron's outfit is probably the second best in FFX.

[Magus]

Galuf was a cool dude all told. I just don't think he gets enough props.

[Nique]

Really? Who's the first then?

Please say Lulu.

In all seriousness, I thought his Auron was one of the most flawless out of the last like 5 games as far as character design.

[bluestarultor]

Auron has the better outfit though. Vincent has the worst character design in FFVII as far as I can recall.

No, THAT'S where Yuffie takes the cake. I mean look at this! (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051231032506/finalfantasy/images/f/f7/Yuffie_Kisaragi_Nomura_art.jpg) She's got the weird-ass shield thing, fine, but then she has a fishnet sleeve on the other arm, and a single fishnet stocking on the opposite leg held up by a single, ugly-ass garter, with leg warmers OVER it. Just to top it off, she's too slutty to do up her pants, the tramp!

The worst part is if you take away the fishnet crap, it's not quite as distinctive, but it's much less ridiculous. (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090523140658/finalfantasy/images/b/ba/Yuffie_Red_Shirt_Artwork.jpg)

[Nique]

Just to top it off, she's too slutty to do up her pants, the tramp!

:/

As far as the fishnets...maybe she's just punk? You know, punk rocker? With a sled attached to her arm?

[Kim]

No, THAT'S where Yuffie takes the cake. I mean look at this! (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051231032506/finalfantasy/images/f/f7/Yuffie_Kisaragi_Nomura_art.jpg) She's got the weird-ass shield thing, fine, but then she has a fishnet sleeve on the other arm, and a single fishnet stocking on the opposite leg held up by a single, ugly-ass garter, with leg warmers OVER it. Just to top it off, she's too slutty to do up her pants, the tramp!

The worst part is if you take away the fishnet crap, it's not quite as distinctive, but it's much less ridiculous. (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090523140658/finalfantasy/images/b/ba/Yuffie_Red_Shirt_Artwork.jpg)

Vincent's pointy-ass gold boots. [/discussion]

[POS Industries]

Vincent's pointy-ass gold boots. [/discussion]
Also ALL LEGS, NO TORSO. (http://www.everyoneweb.es/WA/DataFileslatierraprometida/Vincent_Valentine_art.jpg)

How does I anatomy?

[Kim]

ALL LEGS, NO TORSO. (http://www.everyoneweb.es/WA/DataFileslatierraprometida/Vincent_Valentine_art.jpg)

http://i52.tinypic.com/2v1mg00.jpg

[Krylo]

Just to top it off, she's too slutty to do up her pants, the tramp!

That was an actual style in Japan practiced by teenage girls at the time FF7 was released.


...Someday they will put a Ganguro girl in an FF and in ten years someone will complain about how the character wore too much make up.

Actually, it will probably be pretty much immediately.

[Kim]

I was hoping that particular sentence was mostly/completely joking, for several reasons.

[Nique]

In blue's defense, it is kind of weird to not button your pants. That is what buttons are for!

weird picture

What am I looking at?

[Kim]

I've got a pair I don't button up. Plus, not buttoning your pants is hardly worth recognition when it comes to FF character design choices. Hell, Blues (IIRC) has defended worse design decisions than that.

[bluestarultor]

:/

As far as the fishnets...maybe she's just punk? You know, punk rocker? With a sled attached to her arm?

I meant that as a joke.

Vincent's pointy-ass gold boots. [/discussion]

Are (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101110154921/finalfantasy/images/1/1d/Dissidia_Terra.png) we (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071231181408/finalfantasy/images/4/46/Setzer_II.jpg) really (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081002203334/finalfantasy/images/8/80/After_Rydia.png) going (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090306004029/finalfantasy/images/3/31/Amano_Faris_III.jpg) that (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100705055854/finalfantasy/images/2/22/165px-Ff6_edgar.jpg) route? (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100705054758/finalfantasy/images/e/eb/200px-Ff6_shadow.jpg)

I (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101027182612/finalfantasy/images/2/22/Dissidia_Fighter_Job_Change.JPG) could (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080225080552/finalfantasy/images/1/18/Leon.jpg) go (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080225080649/finalfantasy/images/5/56/Amano_Maria.jpg) on... (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100709175256/finalfantasy/images/0/0a/FFV-amano_galuf.jpg) :P



Edit: Okay, wow, the thread moved a lot faster than I'd expected/hoped. To be clear, yeah, I was joking about the tramp comment. Yuffie is pretty much anything but.

[Kim]

Keep in mind all your examples weren't readily apparent in the games they first showed up in. I'm not inclined to defend Terra's boots.

EDIT: Mostly I just fuggin' hate gold.

[bluestarultor]

Keep in mind all your examples weren't readily apparent in the games they first showed up in. I'm not inclined to defend Terra's boots.

I think what we should take from this is Amano has as much of a hard-on for pointy, gold boots as Nomura has for belts. XD

[Kim]

Much more noticeable is his penchant for scarfs. Scarfs are pretty awesome, though. I mean, they aren't on every character, but when a character has a scarf they have all the scarves.

[Krylo]

I was hoping that particular sentence was mostly/completely joking, for several reasons.

I'm pretty sure it was like, 90% joking. I just wanted to point out that Yuffie's design is actually rooted pretty firmly in contemporary Japanese fashion + arm shield and metal leg band.

Vincent on the other hand is pretty basic/blaise emoish 90s cool dude, though his shoes are ridiculous.

Cait Sith is a shittier design than either. I'd argue Aeris's is pretty terrible too, though only on the basis that she wore that dress in combat.

[Kim]

Cait Sith

Who?

I'd argue Aeris's is pretty terrible too, though only on the basis that she wore that dress in combat.

Plot-wise she wasn't a combat oriented character, I don't think. (I could be wrong) Plus, she just sort of tagged along for the ride rather than being part of a terrorist group or an ex-soldier.

[Krylo]

Who?Exactly.

Plot-wise she wasn't a combat oriented character, I don't think. (I could be wrong) Plus, she just sort of tagged along for the ride rather than being part of a terrorist group or an ex-soldier.

She was in my combat line up. If they don't want me to think her wearing that dress in combat is stupid/ridiculous, they shouldn't have let me put her into combat.

[bluestarultor]

I'm pretty sure it was like, 90% joking. I just wanted to point out that Yuffie's design is actually rooted pretty firmly in contemporary Japanese fashion + arm shield and metal leg band.

Vincent on the other hand is pretty basic/blaise emoish 90s cool dude, though his shoes are ridiculous.

Cait Sith is a shittier design than either. I'd argue Aeris's is pretty terrible too, though only on the basis that she wore that dress in combat.

Cait Sith took the recurring creature and stuck it on top of a fat Moogle. The cat itself is the same cat it's ever been.

Aeris is interesting in that she shares a ton of probably unintentional similarities with an old monster of the series. (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lemure) But past that, while she did wear the dress in combat, it wasn't like she was made out to be a physical fighter and she did look appropriately like a flower girl. The only real weirdness of her design is combining a pink dress with heavy brown boots.

[Kim]

Actually, Cloud's outfit is pretty terrible, simply for the color of it.

[Bells]

Well, that's one thing FF8 surpassed FF7, Female Characters on FF8 are WAY better dressed.

Also Quistis Exists.

...RAWR!

[Nique]

Also Quistis Exists.


I can't decide if I like her becuase, I mean, yeah, RAWR or if I hate her becuase she very clearly represents such an obvious fetish. I guess she had some pretty good characterization. I'll go with 'like'.

[EVILNess]

I guess she had some pretty good characterization.

Which was what, exactly?

She has a minor part in the beginning when she is your teacher, a bit where she almost confesses she wants in Squall's pants, and then... what?

She disappears for a long time and then is thrown back into the party and contributes no more to the plot.

FF8 had terribly fleshed out characters. I mean Squall, Rinoa, Seifer, and Laguna showed some real growth (Or in Seifer's case real psychosis) over the game, but everyone else had a few minutes in the spotlight (Ms. Trepe as your teacher, Zell as your back-up during the SeeD exam, Selphie and the Missle Base, and Irving and the shot at Edea) and then was plot irrelevant or interchangeable for the rest of the game.

FF9 though... there was a game where all the characters grew as characters.

[DarkDrgon]

I never liked Zidanes poofy neck thing, but other than that minor annoyance, idk about any designs I absolutely couldn't look at.

[Nique]

Which was what, exactly?


Well, other than her personality totally undermining the trope she represents, she actually has a pretty decent arc during the first few hours of the game. There's some other stuff with her character later on coping with her feelings n' stuff but that's all undermined by FF8's story totally changing gears (or smashing the gears into random peices? Really reaching for a good metaphor here) half-way through the game.

[bluestarultor]

I can't decide if I like her becuase, I mean, yeah, RAWR or if I hate her becuase she very clearly represents such an obvious fetish. I guess she had some pretty good characterization. I'll go with 'like'.

If you're ever on the fence about it, just remember, FUCK YEAH, TURRET! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Nq7scFTQLE) (right at the end there, couldn't find a better one)

[Krylo]

(right at the end there, couldn't find a better one)

L2Timestamp nublet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Nq7scFTQLE#t=6m45s)

[bluestarultor]

L2Timestamp nublet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Nq7scFTQLE#t=6m45s)

You know I've been trying to figure out the formula to do that for weeks? I never would have guessed a pound sign, but it makes an odd sort of sense.

[greed]

FF9 though... there was a game where all the characters grew as characters.


......Amarant?

[EVILNess]

......Amarant?

Amarant has the most subtle changes throughout the story, but he does change. He goes from a loner who never does a victory animation in battle to wanting to see what it is like to be of the team after Zidane saves him in Ipsen's Castle. This eventually evolves (Albeit, quietly) into him respecting his comrades and realizing you can't always be alone.

He is really just a private person and you have to glean how he changes from his dialog along the game. Compare how he talks when he first joins the party to when Zidane is in his funk when he finds out he is a genome.

Final Fantasy 9 is just one of those odd games where they make you work for certain plot, world, and character tidbits. Be it through Mog letters, ATEs, Key Item descriptions, or side quests that are easily missed you have to really look for certain things. (Dagger's true name comes to mind.)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Vincent.

Ah but I could just leave him in that stupid coffin where no matter how I try I can't get Auron to fuck off and leave me alone.

[Kim]

Auron didn't get his own game about being a pedophile.

[Krylo]

Knowing Smarty's horrible taste I could almost believe he means what he's saying.

However, Auron is in the same game as Wakka.

[Jagos]

That was an actual style in Japan practiced by teenage girls at the time FF7 was released.


...Someday they will put a Ganguro girl in an FF and in ten years someone will complain about how the character wore too much make up.

Actually, it will probably be pretty much immediately.

They made the Ganguro girls bunnies in FF Ivalice/Tactics/12.

[Krylo]

Assuming you're talking about the Viera: No. That's not a thing that happened.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Auron didn't get his own game about being a pedophile.
Haven't played it so I can act like it doesn't exist.

Knowing Smarty's horrible taste I could almost believe he means what he's saying.

However, Auron is in the same game as Wakka.

Wakka is annoying but that's pretty much on purpose. Like he's this crazy religious zealot racist and if you made such a character likeable you'd get into heaps of shit so they just made him ridiculous caricature and I find it hilarious.
Wakka is like the Leslie Nielsen- delivering ridiculous lines but playing them all straight.

[Yumil]

Well, other than her personality totally undermining the trope she represents, she actually has a pretty decent arc during the first few hours of the game. There's some other stuff with her character later on coping with her feelings n' stuff but that's all undermined by FF8's story totally changing gears (or smashing the gears into random peices? Really reaching for a good metaphor here) half-way through the game.

That's why I really like the theory that Squall dies at the end of the first disc and the rest is a dream as his life is draining. At first he get's everything he wants, the reality changes and slowly everything goes away. You get to see his memories get more and more distorted, then he finds peace and you see your "good" ending, which is him believing everyone will be alright.

If you haven't read the full theory and "proof" then have a go here (http://squallsdead.com/). Honestly, I believe this is what they originally intended to do for the game, but in the end decided to make it subtly hinted at instead of blatantly told by the story. I respect the plot holes a little more if this is the case.

[Krylo]

If you haven't read the full theory and "proof" then have a go here (http://squallsdead.com/). Honestly, I believe this is what they originally intended to do for the game, but in the end decided to make it subtly hinted at instead of blatantly told by the story. I respect the plot holes a little more if this is the case.

The one thing this entire theory forgets is that it's a Final Fantasy game.

Well that and the fact that there's very little to suggest what is happening isn't really happening. Characters act odd, but that's more likely bad writing than anything to do with the main character being dead. Moombas are odd, but no odder than any other creature ever put into a Final Fantasy game, and again, all the oddities surrounding it are more easily attributed to bad writing than dead Squall.

And it's not like the writing SUDDENLY got bad after Edea skewered him. It was bad from the get go. It just got progressively worse as the game went on from the starting line. From Rinoa dancing with Squall to pass the time and then running off, to Squall being an ass to Quistis, to Zell's entire existence, to SELPHIE's entire existence, to Cid having Squall's team work for Rinoa more or less for free for no good reason, to random shared pass outs/Laguna dreams to Rinoa's dad just happens to be the general who is hiring you to kill Edea to Rinoa getting mind controlled, etc. etc.

There would need to be something, even something small, that actually stated this was a dream or an imagination. If the Laguna dreams had started AFTER the alleged death to Edea, it might be onto something, but they started well before that point. Just before Squall's first mission with Rinoa.

In fact, very little that happens after Squall is supposedly dead is any more fantastic than the things that happened before hand (world wide broad casting system that no one really remembered getting fixed, single person nearly managing to kill the most powerful political figure ever on live television, teleporting sorceresses, undead dopplegangers, etc. etc.)

AND, most importantly, Final Fantasy is just not that clever. Square's writing team has never, in its long existence, proven themselves to be even close to that clever.

The game was just poorly written, it wasn't a brilliant avant-garde work about the images passing through a boy's head as his life slips away.

[EVILNess]

AND, most importantly, Final Fantasy is just not that clever. Square's writing team has never, in its long existence, proven themselves to be even close to that clever.


Final Fantasy Tactics.

I credit that more to Matsuno than Square though, I mean it's not like either of the other two Final Fantasy Tactics games even came close.

I totally agree with you though Krylo. If Squall was dead then why did they have two Laguna Dreams before he was impaled? That alone pokes an enormous hole in the "Theory."

If you read the Ultimania (I think its an Ultimania...) they give Ultimecia's motives as preventing her own death. She saw a premonition of her own death at the hands of SeeDs, so she wanted to create a world where she would be all-powerful and no one could match her strength. Hence the Time Compression. However, she ended up fulfilling her own prophecy by fighting Squall and Company and creating a stable time loop by giving Edea her powers.

[Kim]

The game was just poorly written, it wasn't a brilliant avant-garde work about the images passing through a boy's head as his life slips away.

This. If you have to make up absurd fan theories to make a plot not be horrible (or even less horrible) then it's safe to say that the writing is just especially horrible.

As for FFT as an example of good Squeenix writing, I actually have my own complaints with that game's plot, though it's certainly one of the best ones. FFXII's plot is good, too, but let's be perfectly honest here. Even if you take the best writing in an FF game, no matter what FF game that happens to be, there are probably multiple examples of superior writing in other franchises. The FF games excel at being good. Not great. Not amazing. Just good. Bad FF games are rare in the main series, but that doesn't mean FF is a fantastic franchise.

[Jagos]

So it's safe to say Square is high when it comes to FF?

[Fifthfiend]

Auron is basically the best because without him the entire stupid world of stupid FFX keeps going "Lets keep sending earnest young people on suicide quests to somewhat decrease the amount of people that will be murdered by this psychotic old ghost" basically forever.

[Ryong]

The FF games excel at being good. Not great. Not amazing. Just good. Bad FF games are rare in the main series, but that doesn't mean FF is a fantastic franchise.

Shit, I wonder how rich do companies which make like 20 amazing games get.

[Krylo]

Shit, I wonder how rich do companies which make like 20 amazing games get.

They don't, because amazing games are polarizing.

[Fifthfiend]

Everyone knows making lots of money is an indicator of quality *watches Transformers and Star Wars prequels, the greatest movies ever made*

[Nique]

That's why I really like the theory that Squall dies at the end of the first disc...

The story as a concept is, really, pretty good as it is and even though this is kind of an interesting theory and fun to speculate, I don't think it really fixes any actual problems.

The story and dialog needed a lot of patching up before it was released. But come on a schooltime anime that turns into an epic adventure with mercenaries and also a teenage-romance subplot? Final Fantasy VIII was a missed opportunity to define the PSX era of role-playing games becuase half-way through they decided it should be about time travel and special memories and also Squall making stupid decisions.

Nevertheless, I still defend Final Fantasy VIII for what it did well, like introducing what was, for the series, really unique settings and game mechanics, in addition to some fairly poignant moments. Even in the midst of a really cluttered story, I was able to enjoy a lot of the game pretty well.

[Krylo]

what it did well, like introducing what was, for the series, really unique settings and game mechanics

http://newsbird.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/mosmallred.jpg

[Nique]

I really liked being able to use magic and summons for more than just *pew pew pew*. Drawing Magic to boost my stats was not more tedious to me than, say, just regular grinding in any other Final Fantasy game, and actually was kind of fun in a 'gotta catch 'em all' kind of way that fed my impulse to collect stuff.

Also this is totally out of nowhere but I have to say:

watches Transformers and Star Wars prequels, the greatest movies ever made*


have you seen it? have you seen the trailer for the third movie in this series? like, as if conspiracy theorists weren't already pissing on the moon landing, now micheal bay is totally doing exactly that

[Krylo]

The problem is that it actively punished you for using them as pew pews, making the entire game an exercise in holding the x button down and occasionally tossing out a summon with a twenty minutes long summoning animation.

OR gimping your characters.

OR being forced to recollect magic after every fight.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Auron is basically the best because without him the entire stupid world of stupid FFX keeps going "Lets keep sending earnest young people on suicide quests to somewhat decrease the amount of people that will be murdered by this psychotic old ghost" basically forever.

Apart from that part where he just needlessly endangers your quest and everyone around you by not explaining anything till the final act.LIke FFX could have been about 10 minutes long if Auron just fucking explained everything at the start. He's worse than the guys who believed they were doing the right thing by setting up summoning quest- he just wanted to endanger the world because- he was drunk?? I don't even know why.

Re FF8 the biggest problem was he fucking summons. Holy fuck.

[Fifthfiend]

Apart from that part where he just needlessly endangers your quest and everyone around you by not explaining anything till the final act.LIke FFX could have been about 10 minutes long if Auron just fucking explained everything at the start. He's worse than the guys who believed they were doing the right thing by setting up summoning quest- he just wanted to endanger the world because- he was drunk?? I don't even know why.

If Auron had explained everything from the start the best case scenario is that it would have changed literally nothing since you still would have had to go through basically all of the same shit as you grinded your way up to being able to kill Witchy McVengeance and Tidus's dad and the magic flying fartzoglyph and the actually likely scenario is that without having been dragged along on this entire ridiculous quest to see for themselves how stupid it is the cast of ridiculous sperglord children he was dealing with would have refused to listen to a goddamn thing he said and doubled down on believing in their stupid suicide pact and probably all gotten themselves killed by running off and not having him there to babysit them.

have you seen it? have you seen the trailer for the third movie in this series? like, as if conspiracy theorists weren't already pissing on the moon landing, now micheal bay is totally doing exactly that

Michael Bay is the filth of the Earth, literally hope that Buzz Aldrin looks him up and punches him in the dick.

[Yrcrazypa]

What was that one that was practically 20 minutes long in FF8? I know with that little "Hit square to do more damage!" mechanic, I could mess up twice just before 200 something, however high it was, and still max it out. It was just stupid.

[Vauron]

Eden, most likely.

[Krylo]

Also: All of them.

Edit: It was called 'boost' and all the summons had it. Some just didn't take as long.

[mauve]

It has occurred to me that all of the FF characters I like best are the Random Other People In Your Party variety. I don't think the main protagonist from any of the Final Fantasies I've played has ever been my favorite character.

FF12 was the "Basch, Balthier, Fran and Gilgamesh are awesome and the rest of you people suck" show.

Revenant Wings was the "Tomaj and Ba'Gamnon are awesome and the rest of you people lack character depth/plot continuity" show.

FF9 had a whole slew of likeable secondary characters and NPC's, my favorites being Steiner, Freya and Beatrix. Eiko, Amarant and Quina still sucked, though.

I'll spare you the full list of FF's I've played. I'm sure you get the idea.

[Kim]

Fran's definitely one of my favorite FF characters, I gotta say. Not especially sure why. She just is.

And yeah FF protagonists are usually among the least interesting party characters.

[Krylo]

my favorites being Steiner
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/krylo/Reactions/lookofdisaproval.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/krylo/lookofdisaproval.jpg

[Bard The 5th LW]

I haven't played many FF's, but I liked Locke from FFVI. He seems to have some sense of responsibility, what with protecting Terra early on. His true problems start showing in the World of Ruin, but he manages to get past them with minimal outward brooding.

Liked Edgar and Sabin as well, especially Sabin during his scene in the ending credits.

[Nique]

Fran's definitely one of my favorite FF characters, I gotta say. Not especially sure why. She just is.


There's not a lot to dislike about her as a character. She doesn't say much but what she does say always seemed appropriate to the story/ dialog going on at the time and she just came across as being pretty cool. I also liked that her sex appeal was very... not sure how to put it - It was definitely there, but it didn't interfere with the character in the way that, say, distracting jiggle-mechanics would. I didn't get far in FFXII though so I don't know they f'd that up at all.

[Magus]

I see no reason to pick on Zidane's cravat/string tie combo, it's classy.

Now, the dress cuffs around the wrists that are not attached to sleeves because he has none, what the fuck is up with that?

Also Wakka was not really annoying because he was a religious zealot, it was more everything else about him such as his appearance, personality, accent, down syndrome., etc. etc.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If Auron had explained everything from the start the best case scenario is that it would have changed literally nothing since you still would have had to go through basically all of the same shit as you grinded your way up to being able to kill Witchy McVengeance and Tidus's dad and the magic flying fartzoglyph and the actually likely scenario is that without having been dragged along on this entire ridiculous quest to see for themselves how stupid it is the cast of ridiculous sperglord children he was dealing with would have refused to listen to a goddamn thing he said and doubled down on believing in their stupid suicide pact and probably all gotten themselves killed by running off and not having him there to babysit them.


So instead he just follows them round, not really guiding them, wasting vast amounts of time where Sin is eating everyone just hoping hat somehow they will stumble onto a plan that has evaded everyone else in he world, hoping that noone decided to send the obviously undead character along he way which would have fucked everyone.
Auron was this super respected guardian, had beaten Sin before- just be like "Yo dudes, I got this plan to bea Sin 4eva, I've done it before just lisen to me or I'll ghostpossess your ass" and i would have been sweet.
Auron did fucking nohing, remove him from the game and apart from hte first bit very little changes.

[Krylo]

Auron was there for multiple sendings and ordered Yuna to perform them, and he got nothin' more than a mild discomfort from that shit.

There was no real risk of that.

Also, even IF they had all followed him if he had just told them all what was up, they'd have still had to go through the whole pilgrimage to get all the summons and power necessary to battle Sin. Not to mention figuring out a way to punch through his armor that wouldn't have happened without capture by the Al Bhed and shit.

So him telling them everything wouldn't have actually accomplished shit in the way of saving lives, just risked Wakka, Lulu, Kimahri, and Yuna telling him off for heresay. Which they may not have, but why take the risk?

Plus, he didn't actually HAVE a plan for killing Sin. That came later as a group effort along with the Al Bhed that they never would have met had they not gone stumbled through like normal.

And beyond that, I'm pretty sure he felt obligated to take something of a back seat because he was already dead. He left it up to everyone else whether or not to go through with doing Sin like everyone else had or risking everything to try to put the monster down for good.

[Kim]

Also, even were Smarty right about how you could remove him from the game and nothing changes, there are other FF characters this could probably apply to better, and he's hardly the worst among them. Off the top of my head: Penelo.

[Dracorion]

Wakka put Tidus in a headlock. Multiple times.

Best character in FFX right there.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Also, even were Smarty right about how you could remove him from the game and nothing changes, there are other FF characters this could probably apply to better, and he's hardly the worst among them. Off the top of my head: Penelo.

The only final fanasy games that count are ones that I have played. Obviously.

the problem with the whole "being denounced as a heretic" thing is that they didn't denounce any body else despite every religious character clearly being crazy heretical. After the parties being through machina as shit temples and seen everyone using guns then its pretty clear you can piss on Yevon and nobody will care.
And by going on a pilgrammage to get summons only Yuna gets any training- everyone thinks that summons will defeat Sin so the other dudes can just laze around, If I want to beat Sin in another way clearly you should be like "Yuna is going o get some summons, the rest of us are going to intensively train cause hey, guess what- we're fighing oo". The only training they get is beating up random animals that happen to come across their way. Putting all your hopes in the summoner when you know that doesn't work is fucking stupid as shit.
Just pull Tidus aside and be like "Hey tidus, you don't believe in this religion, well hey it's a stupid lie- you better get real good with that sword"- cause fucking Tidus doesn't give a shit about Yevon.

Like I can't figure out what Auron was going o do- let everyone just get slaughtered by Sin then be like "Shitttttt, maybe I should have mentioned something earlier. You had the same training as basically everybody in the world who goes anywhere and armies of them couldn't stop Sin but I had a crazzzzzzzy hunch.". Nobody had bea him before without the final Aeon, is he just assuming a group of people with no real training or preparation can do it?

[Yumil]

The only final fanasy games that count are ones that I have played. Obviously.

the problem with the whole "being denounced as a heretic" thing is that they didn't denounce any body else despite every religious character clearly being crazy heretical. After the parties being through machina as shit temples and seen everyone using guns then its pretty clear you can piss on Yevon and nobody will care.
And by going on a pilgrammage to get summons only Yuna gets any training- everyone thinks that summons will defeat Sin so the other dudes can just laze around, If I want to beat Sin in another way clearly you should be like "Yuna is going o get some summons, the rest of us are going to intensively train cause hey, guess what- we're fighing oo". The only training they get is beating up random animals that happen to come across their way. Putting all your hopes in the summoner when you know that doesn't work is fucking stupid as shit.
Just pull Tidus aside and be like "Hey tidus, you don't believe in this religion, well hey it's a stupid lie- you better get real good with that sword"- cause fucking Tidus doesn't give a shit about Yevon.

Like I can't figure out what Auron was going o do- let everyone just get slaughtered by Sin then be like "Shitttttt, maybe I should have mentioned something earlier. You had the same training as basically everybody in the world who goes anywhere and armies of them couldn't stop Sin but I had a crazzzzzzzy hunch.". Nobody had bea him before without the final Aeon, is he just assuming a group of people with no real training or preparation can do it?
His whole goal was to get Tidus there and make sure Tidus was prepared to face his father. He didn't give a shit about the rest of the party, he was banking on tidus having an effect on Jecht.

[Jagos]

The only final fanasy games that count are ones that I have played. Obviously.

the problem with the whole "being denounced as a heretic" thing is that they didn't denounce any body else despite every religious character clearly being crazy heretical. After the parties being through machina as shit temples and seen everyone using guns then its pretty clear you can piss on Yevon and nobody will care.
And by going on a pilgrammage to get summons only Yuna gets any training- everyone thinks that summons will defeat Sin so the other dudes can just laze around, If I want to beat Sin in another way clearly you should be like "Yuna is going o get some summons, the rest of us are going to intensively train cause hey, guess what- we're fighing oo". The only training they get is beating up random animals that happen to come across their way. Putting all your hopes in the summoner when you know that doesn't work is fucking stupid as shit.
Just pull Tidus aside and be like "Hey tidus, you don't believe in this religion, well hey it's a stupid lie- you better get real good with that sword"- cause fucking Tidus doesn't give a shit about Yevon.

Like I can't figure out what Auron was going o do- let everyone just get slaughtered by Sin then be like "Shitttttt, maybe I should have mentioned something earlier. You had the same training as basically everybody in the world who goes anywhere and armies of them couldn't stop Sin but I had a crazzzzzzzy hunch.". Nobody had bea him before without the final Aeon, is he just assuming a group of people with no real training or preparation can do it?

Ok, seriously... Everyone was there to protect Yuna. Tidus' whiny crap, Lulu's cleavage, Rikku's annoyance, Auron's Badassedness (even if he had an ulterior motive), Kimahri's muteness, and Wakka's zealotry, were just there to make sure that Yuna gets to make Sin a dream for 10 years.

Let's truly think about the teaching of Yu Yevon for a bit. It was used to control the populace and not question too much the inner workings. Was it hypocritical? Sure as shooting, but how many people actually got to see all of the insides of all of the temples?

Even Yuna herself was whipped trained pretty early on to accept her fate. And her fate was to destroy Sin, which no one else could do. That kind of a lot for one person to truly understand, much less have to make a decision on without anyone telling her otherwise.