Rap And Country/Anime>American cartoons

[Premmy]

Soooo, it occurs to me that there's a large amount of people who dislike things without very much information on those things, I used to be that type of person until I realized how foolish it was of me.

In this thread, we specifically give reasons why we like everything but X and anyone is free to say "well actually that's one hundred percent wrong" by providing information about said thing.

[Seil]

I like CAD.

[Nikose Tyris]

There is nothing wrong with that, Seil. Each person has their own tastes, and we're all entitled to like the things we like, and dislike the things we dislike. So long as you don't force your opinion on anyone else, you're in the clear.

[Premmy]

Take that shit where it belongs, (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=39374)this thread is for telling people who blindly dislike stuff why they should like it!

[Fenris]

Personally, I find that most rap is not terribly musical. I like my music to be musical.

I would appreciate rap more if they were just honest with what the majority of it is-poetry with a beat. Not music.

Also I don't like the way country sounds but that's my personal taste.

EDIT: Also,

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/NuklearFenris/history_of_black_music1.jpg

[Premmy]

How are you defining "musical" exactly?
edit:
Also Rap=/= Not genre, it's used to make lots of different types of music.

[Aerozord]

any "song" where the lyrics are done with a single note is not music, its rythmic talking

I do know there is rap that is not like that, and I view it as valid music, but most of it, is not music

[edit] most of it in mainstream media, isn't

[Premmy]

So vocal harmonizing is an essential factor of music?
does this not eliminate instrumental music?

[Aerozord]

So vocal harmonizing is an essential factor of music?
does this not eliminate instrumental music?

it does when instrumental part of your music has the audio complexity of a metronome

[Token]

it does when instrumental part of your music has the audio complexity of a metronome

Good thing most rap isn't like that.

[Premmy]

it does when instrumental part of your music has the audio complexity of a metronome
This has something to do with rapping how?

EDIT: Also,

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/NuklearFenris/history_of_black_music1.jpg

Lil' wayne is pretty much the definition of quantity over quality, he and his group releases at least five songs per month.

[Pip Boy]

My stance on rap depends entirely on the specific song. I absolutely cannot stand the ones that are some guy on a mission to try and prove Black Mid-to-Lower class stereotypes are right, rapping about how he's the hottest shit in the hood or whatever bullshit those damn kids are calling it these days. Not saying all rap is like that, but unfortunately all the rap people in my region listen to is like that. That said, there are some songs I've liked. Like Clint Eastwood.

[Fifthfiend]

The only good raps are the ones about A. riding dirty, B. not getting caught riding dirty, C. the police seeing us rolling, hating us, patrolling in hopes of catching us riding dirty (which they will not).

[Geminex]

What about the ones about living in a worker's paradise?
Or was it gangsters? I can't remember.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Wasn't it a pasttime paradise? They all get mixed up.
And some amish showed up at one point.

[Premmy]

apparently they fight crime?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIcDUG4gFEY)
Edit, also, who in the hell decided that song was appropriate? maybe they suffer some kind of remorse re: Posing as criminals in the movie?

[Lumenskir]

All chiptunes/videogame remixes/nerdcore/whatever the fuck sounds like some thirty year old virgin's memories of Pac-Man and never rises above the level of random blips and klaxons.

All metal sounds like a fat thirty year old virgin's memories of masturbating to the Anarchist Cookbook and can be duplicated quite easily by running a guitar through a meat grinder while overlaying lyrics about how much better you see the world through non-conformist eyes.

[Krylo]

All chiptunes/videogame remixes/nerdcore/whatever the fuck sounds like some thirty year old virgin's memories of Pac-Man and never rises above the level of random blips and klaxons.Nerdcore is a subset of rap/hip hop that is about nerdy activities instead of bitches and bling. It's usually in the style of gangster rap.

It has nothing to do with chiptunes.

That said, while I would normally agree that about 90% of all chiptunes are shit/mostly what you described there are notable exceptions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frl898gVW1o).

All metal sounds like a fat thirty year old virgin's memories of masturbating to the Anarchist Cookbook and can be duplicated quite easily by running a guitar through a meat grinder while overlaying lyrics about how much better you see the world through non-conformist eyes.

Fun fact: Metal Guitar takes more technical skill and ability than basically any other guitar work.

Too bad there's almost always some shit head throat screaming over it.

[Lumenskir]

I remain unconvinced, and repeat my assertion that all examples of both genres are fully shitty by virtue of them being examples of those genres. I will also not do any independent research on either genre, and will secretly judge you if you try to defend them.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I've never seen a good 3D animated movie, ever. Before I saw any and before they became common I even thought of them as nothing but a fad. I was surprised that there were so many people who wanted to see what I called movie length video game cutscenes at the time.

Unlike cartoons I fail to see any appeal in those movies, or maybe it's just that all of those made so far (or rather the ones I've seen) are genuinely bad. Maybe every time someone tries something new it's doomed to be a medium thought of as "for kids only" until years later.

Maybe I'm just an ignorant fool who does not want to admit that he's got hots of the seething kind for Shrek's green splendor, has a talking cars fetish he's not yet comfortable with and doesn't want to watch Avatar because it's got them darker and edgier Smurfs in it.

No really, I didn't watch Avatar because people keep telling me it looks pretty but the plot is mehdiocre. I know there aren't any smurfs in it just because there are blue people in it. I heard people make furry jokes about it though, furries are the new Twilight fans, or did the Twilight fans come after that? I'm not up do date with this collective internet hate thing right now. Whatever happened to emos? Or goths? George Bush? Your mom? Bill Gates? Ninjas/Pirates?

All gone, right? Did I spend these last years in a cave?

Also: I don't like hip hop music. Rap vocals can be fun, occasionally, though I listen to no genre that is defined by that vocal style. I have a similar opinion as Fenris regarding the monotonous kind of music featuring rap, which is really just poetry with some percussion or maybe a bit of bass. I've heard rap being used in rather melodic pieces and some of them were even mainstream artists. The lyrics were still just philosophical ramblings about the difference between hos and whores, why they'll never be as good as bitches and why they need pimpin' and bros come always first. Also: Butts

[phil_]

I've never seen a good 3D animated movie, ever.By 3D, do you mean "computer generated" like Shrek, or do you mean "you have to wear awful glasses and stuff pops out at you" like Shrek Forever After? Not that it really matters, since the solution to either scenario is watching How to Train your Dragon.

[Red Fighter 1073]

Oh great another "All Rap sucks because it just does" thread. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiOcVWQY2bc) . (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BcOMcWa-mU) . (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp4_r8_MMho)

[Aerozord]

I remain unconvinced, and repeat my assertion that all examples of both genres are fully shitty by virtue of them being examples of those genres. I will also not do any independent research on either genre, and will secretly judge you if you try to defend them.

I dont know, I always thought this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6L9bUouDr8) was pretty awesome

[Fenris]

So vocal harmonizing is an essential factor of music?
does this not eliminate instrumental music?

Nah, I just like a little bit of melody to go with my music. Harmony is nice too.

[Kim]

I like the Mad World soundtrack for rap because you've got kickass guitar alongside the heavy beats and lyrics most rap is known for, also it's less about "bitches and hoes" or whatever and more about sawing people in half. You know, wholesome stuff.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

By 3D, do you mean "computer generated" like Shrek, or do you mean "you have to wear awful glasses and stuff pops out at you" like Shrek Forever After? Not that it really matters, since the solution to either scenario is watching How to Train your Dragon.

Uh yeah, Computer generated.
I keep calling them 3D movies for some reason I don't know.

[Lumenskir]

I dont know, I always thought this was pretty awesome
Hmm, I guess subtlety won't be too big of a help here.

Basically, this thread is meaningless inasmuch as it's impossible to get anybody to change their mind about something solely through this sort of meager forum advocation. At most you'll just end up with some variation of "It Sucks!" v. "Nuh-Uh" except with more words and elocution (see: Fenris's 'melody + harmony' bullshit), but nobody is at any real risk of opening their horizons or changing their minds.

Face it, we have all at some hated something that we are fans of today. We didn't become fans of the new thing because of a Youtube link a stranger offered. It's something you have to do yourself, but you need inclination first. It's very easy to stroll through Pitchfork's Top 100 list to see what you should be checking out in 'indie' music (but, seriously, don't read the actual words Pitchfork uses), but it's much easier to tell yourself that all indie music is the masturbatory realm of 'hipsters' and never bother with it in the first place. If you want to know what kind of rap you like it's easy to stroll through some blogs or read a few articles about it and slowly refine your taste, but it's much easier to tell yourself that the only kind of rap that exists is what's on the radio (even if you actually listen to other kinds of music that's never played on the radio). Hell, over on the A.V. Club one of their rap-and-rock loving music lovers went from actively deriding country music to loving it, and all it took was a few months of actually listening to a bunch of country music and gaining an appreciation for it (bizzare, I know).

And lest my argument gets pigeonholed, this applies to everything, not just music. Maybe "How to Train Your Dragon" will absolutely blow IG's mind, but casually mentioning it, or even Youtube-linking to the first big flying scene, won't actually change his mind unless he puts in the due diligence to actually go out and watch the movie, and then to further watch other good examples of the genre.

I forget the name of the law, but 90+% of everything is shit, and being a fan of something usually means that you're willing to dig through to find that golden 10%. As we can see on the forum, some people are willing to trawl through OCRemix for that perfect usage of the Castlevania: Bloodlines Level 3 BGM, and others are willing to see what the latest mixtape sounds like from Atlanta, but let's cut the bullshit pretending that we're actually going to change anyone's mind here.

TL;DR - This isn't even a thread about leading horses to water. This is a thread about trying to convince a cactus that water is great, even though all of the cactus's experiences with water have been short and shallow, by showing the cactus a picture of the Mississippi and telling it that it is actually quite moist.

[CelesJessa]

Uh yeah, Computer generated.
I keep calling them 3D movies for some reason I don't know.

Hnnnng cuts me deep.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about traditional animated movies (say, The Princess and the Frog vs Rapunzel) or live-action movies? I mean, I don't see why having 3D animation would suddenly make a story worse. The computer animation is just a vehicle for telling the story. (it's just curiosity, I'm not telling you you can't dislike it XD)

[Token]

I dunno about him, but my problem with CG animation is that too often it falls into the uncanny valley.

[Krylo]

So do you, so you should get along just fine with it.

[Fifthfiend]

Lumenskir's avatar sounds like a terrible avatar.

I mean, looks like a terrible avatar.

I mean, is a terrible avatar.

I would appreciate rap more if they were just honest with what the majority of it is-poetry with a beat. Not music.

Nah, I just like a little bit of melody to go with my music. Harmony is nice too.

I think the latter is basically reasonable as a statement of preference but there's a big difference between that and the earlier claim that rhythm/percussive music ~isn't music~

EDIT: Also,

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a121/NuklearFenris/history_of_black_music1.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5vh0QHUA1w

[Fenris]

nt.
I think the latter is basically reasonable as a statement of preference but there's a big difference between that and the earlier claim that rhythm/percussive music ~isn't music~

Man, just tbh your tildes make you sound like a much bigger jerk than I think you mean to sound like.

Unless you mean to sound like that much of a jerk, then stop bein a jerk, jerk.

But yeah, it's fair. I guess I'm a bit hypocritical when I define rap as not music because it has no melody or harmony. I don't think that it's terribly musical because it lacks a lot of the stuff that I tend to like in the music that I typically listen to. It has absolutely no melody, thoughtless or absent harmony, and a repetitive beat that I, personally don't care for.

Some rap artists are capable of using this to convey a worthwhile message to people who generally (stereotypically) don't put a lot of philosophical thought into the whys of society and for that I applaud them but I simply do not enjoy the music they produce.

[Archbio]

The only good raps are the ones about A. riding dirty, B. not getting caught riding dirty, C. the police seeing us rolling, hating us, patrolling in hopes of catching us riding dirty (which they will not).

I think not! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e1suuoTs2Q)

Also, what is the freaking deal with Seth Rogen/the trend that makes Seth Rogen a desirable choice for lead parts in things that should be even in the least dramatic?

[Fifthfiend]

I submit that we have no way of confirming whether or not that song concerns riding, being dirty while in the process of riding, or evading police patrols while engaged in such "dirty" forms of riding.

[Krylo]

As a professional speaker of alien moonspeak bullshit, I can confirm that it does not.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Hnnnng cuts me deep.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about traditional animated movies (say, The Princess and the Frog vs Rapunzel) or live-action movies? I mean, I don't see why having 3D animation would suddenly make a story worse. The computer animation is just a vehicle for telling the story. (it's just curiosity, I'm not telling you you can't dislike it XD)

I like some animated movies (western and eastern). Live action too.
I'm not sure myself. I don't know if it's the fact that it's cg/3D or If I just saw the wrong movies. Perhaps the typical kind of story told with cg movies just isn't my thing. Could also be the fact that I only get movies dubbed by shitty German comedians and the singer from Tokio Hotel over here...

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate these kinds of movies out of principle. If I could find one that I like that would be great.

[Krylo]

ICould also be the fact that I only get movies dubbed by shitty German comedians and the singer from Tokio Hotel over here...

I'm like ten million percent sure this is the problem.

You obviously know English. Get some in the original language and see how you like that shit. Ants was pretty good, Wall-E, and How to Train Your Dragon are both supposed to be really good too. The FIRST Shrek is pretty good (but fuck the sequels), and basically anything by Pixar or Dreamworks, to be honest.

Try to get some of those in the original English if you're really interested in giving the medium a chance.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I have it on good authority that German dubbing is universally awful. My friend who lives in germany and has seen both versions of lots of films is filled with rage when dubbing comes up. TV is the worst apparenely, bu films not so great either.

[Fifthfiend]

Wall-E has like no dialogue for half the movie anyway so if you're interested in a CGI movie without a bunch of dubbing shitting it up the whole time that might be your best shot.



Man, just tbh your tildes make you sound like a much bigger jerk than I think you mean to sound like.

Unless you mean to sound like that much of a jerk, then stop bein a jerk, jerk.

If I were being a jerk I would have used asterisks and randomly capitalized letters.

[Wigmund]

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate these kinds of movies out of principle. If I could find one that I like that would be great.

You're a terrible person if you dislike Up or Wall-E.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I usually watch my movies in ze Englisch language and find them all better than the translated dubs. The problem is that I'm not interested enough in those movies to buy DVDs to get a hold of the original version. Though, there's probably another way to get my hands on that, should I ever feel like it.

[Premmy]

TL;DR - This isn't even a thread about leading horses to water. This is a thread about trying to convince a cactus that water is great, even though all of the cactus's experiences with water have been short and shallow, by showing the cactus a picture of the Mississippi and telling it that it is actually quite moist.

Well, no, actually this thread is about People who dislike X because of bullshit/their own arbitrary tastes, who think they can justify their actions with poor, logically unsound arguments concerning the actual quality of X, and me or others pointing out the obvious flaws in said Bullshit arguments. Thus forcing them to accept that they are full of shit.

They can choose to continue disliking X because of bullshit, but they won't(hopefully) act like they have a decent reason for it and just shut the hell up when/if the subject of X comes up. So basically when people Can openly say this

I remain unconvinced, and repeat my assertion that all examples of both genres are fully shitty by virtue of them being examples of those genres. I will also not do any independent research on either genre, and will secretly judge you if you try to defend them.

and still live with themselves and their foolishness I'll be happy.

[Archbio]

Well, no, actually this thread is about People who dislike X because of bullshit/their own arbitrary tastes, who think they can justify their actions with poor, logically unsound arguments concerning the actual quality of X, and me or others pointing out the obvious flaws in said Bullshit arguments. Thus forcing them to accept that they are full of shit.

...wouldn't someone like that think that they have a good handle on what X is and thus not post in this thread?

I mean, this is a pretty terrible idea.

[Premmy]

...wouldn't someone like that think that they have a good handle on what X is and thus not post in this thread?

I mean, this is a pretty terrible idea.

It's poorly worded, they don't actually have a good reason in their head until you press them.

Until you say "Why?" they just feel arbitrary hatred for it, and when you ask, they pull an explanation out of their ass.
Edit: Also, people who think they know everything about something can't be stopped from going on about how much they know

[Archbio]

Good clean fun.

[Bob The Mercenary]

I think Dr. Awkward is okay. :crossarms:

[Fenris]

It's poorly worded, they don't actually have a good reason in their head until you press them.

Until you say "Why?" they just feel arbitrary hatred for it, and when you ask, they pull an explanation out of their ass.
Edit: Also, people who think they know everything about something can't be stopped from going on about how much they know

Hey my asspulled reason was well thought out and well worded thankyou :crossarms:

[Premmy]

You're right man, Music is musical...

[Fenris]

You do realize that "musical" is the most precise word that one can use to describe the nuances involved in music, right? The emotional pulls, dynamic swells? The dramatic accelerando that brings you up to the climax of a symphony? The harmonic density, played perfectly in tune by the orchestra? The spontaneous composition of a fresh melodic line over the improvised chord progression provided by the pianist, guitarist, and bassist on the bandstand by the tenor saxophonist, while receiving impromptu answers to his musical ideas and questions by the drummer?

So yes, music is musical.

I don't think rap is.

Ergo, I don't think rap is music.

Try to keep up.

This is the welcome address given to parents of incoming students at The Boston Conservatory by Dr. Karl Paulnack, Director of the Music Division.

“One of my parents’ deepest fears, I suspect, is that society would not properly value me as a musician, that I wouldn’t be appreciated. I had very good grades in high school, I was good in science and math, and they imagined that as a doctor or a research chemist or an engineer, I might be more appreciated than I would be as a musician. I still remember my mother’s remark when I announced my decision to apply to music school-she said, “you’re wasting your SAT scores!” On some level, I think, my parents were not sure themselves what the value of music was, what its purpose was. And they loved music: they listened to classical music all the time. They just weren’t really clear about its function. So let me talk about that a little bit, because we live in a society that puts music in the “arts and entertainment” section of the newspaper, and serious music, the kind your kids are about to engage in, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with entertainment, in fact it’s the opposite of entertainment. Let me talk a little bit about music, and how it works.

One of the first cultures to articulate how music really works were the ancient Greeks. And this is going to fascinate you: the Greeks said that music and astronomy were two sides of the same coin. Astronomy was seen as the study of relationships between observable, permanent, external objects, and music was seen as the study of relationships between invisible, internal, hidden objects. Music has a way of finding the big, invisible moving pieces inside our hearts and souls and helping us figure out the position of things inside us. Let me give you some examples of how this works.
One of the most profound musical compositions of all time is the Quartet for the End of Time written by French composer Olivier Messiaen in 1940. Messiaen was 31 years old when France entered the war against Nazi Germany. He was captured by the Germans in June of 1940 and imprisoned in a prisoner-of-war camp.

He was fortunate to find a sympathetic prison guard who gave him paper and a place to compose, and fortunate to have musician colleagues in the camp, a cellist, a violinist, and a clarinetist. Messiaen wrote his quartet with these specific players in mind. It was performed in January 1941 for four thousand prisoners and guards in the prison camp. Today it is one of the most famous masterworks in the repertoire.

Given what we have since learned about life in the Nazi camps, why would anyone in his right mind waste time and energy writing or playing music? There was barely enough energy on a good day to find food and water, to avoid a beating, to stay warm, to escape torture-why would anyone bother with music? And yet-even from the concentration camps, we have poetry, we have music, we have visual art; it wasn’t just this one fanatic Messiaen; many, many people created art. Why? Well, in a place where people are only focused on survival, on the bare necessities, the obvious conclusion is that art must be, somehow, essential for life. The camps were without money, without hope, without commerce, without recreation, without basic respect, but they were not without art. Art is part of survival; art is part of the human spirit, an unquenchable expression of who we are. Art is one of the ways in which we say, “I am alive, and my life has meaning.”

In September of 2001 I was a resident of Manhattan. On the morning of September 12, 2001 I reached a new understanding of my art and its relationship to the world. I sat down at the piano that morning at 10 AM to practice as was my daily routine; I did it by force of habit, without thinking about it. I lifted the cover on the keyboard, and opened my music, and put my hands on the keys and took my hands off the keys. And I sat there and thought, does this even matter? Isn’t this completely irrelevant? Playing the piano right now, given what happened in this city yesterday, seems silly, absurd, irreverent, pointless. Why am I here? What place has a musician in this moment in time? Who needs a piano player right now? I was completely lost.

And then I, along with the rest of New York, went through the journey of getting through that week. I did not play the piano that day, and in fact I contemplated briefly whether I would ever want to play the piano again. And then I observed how we got through the day.

At least in my neighborhood, we didn’t shoot hoops or play Scrabble. We didn’t play cards to pass the time, we didn’t watch TV, we didn’t shop, we most certainly did not go to the mall. The first organized activity that I saw in New York, on the very evening of September 11th, was singing. People sang. People sang around fire houses, people sang “We Shall Overcome”. Lots of people sang America the Beautiful. The first organized public event that I remember was the Brahms Requiem, later that week, at Lincoln Center, with the New York Philharmonic. The first organized public expression of grief, our first communal response to that historic event, was a concert. That was the beginning of a sense that life might go on. The US Military secured the airspace, but recovery was led by the arts, and by music in particular, that very night.

From these two experiences, I have come to understand that music is not part of “arts and entertainment” as the newspaper section would have us believe. It’s not a luxury, a lavish thing that we fund from leftovers of our budgets, not a plaything or an amusement or a pass time. Music is a basic need of human survival. Music is one of the ways we make sense of our lives, one of the ways in which we express feelings when we have no words, a way for us to understand things with our hearts when we can’t with our minds.
Some of you may know Samuel Barber’s heart wrenchingly beautiful piece Adagio for Strings. If you don’t know it by that name, then some of you may know it as the background music which accompanied the Oliver Stone movie Platoon, a film about the Vietnam War. If you know that piece of music either way, you know it has the ability to crack your heart open like a walnut; it can make you cry over sadness you didn’t know you had. Music can slip beneath our conscious reality to get at what’s really going on inside us the way a good therapist does.

Very few of you have ever been to a wedding where there was absolutely no music. There might have been only a little music, there might have been some really bad music, but with few exceptions there is some music. And something very predictable happens at weddings-people get all pent up with all kinds of emotions, and then there’s some musical moment where the action of the wedding stops and someone sings or plays the flute or something. And even if the music is lame, even if the quality isn’t good, predictably 30 or 40 percent of the people who are going to cry at a wedding cry a couple of moments after the music starts. Why? The Greeks. Music allows us to move around those big invisible pieces of ourselves and rearrange our insides so that we can express what we feel even when we can’t talk about it. Can you imagine watching Indiana Jones or Superman or Star Wars with the dialogue but no music? What is it about the music swelling up at just the right moment in ET so that all the softies in the audience start crying at exactly the same moment? I guarantee you if you showed the movie with the music stripped out, it wouldn’t happen that way. The Greeks. Music is the understanding of the relationship between invisible internal objects.

I’ll give you one more example, the story of the most important concert of my life. I must tell you I have played a little less than a thousand concerts in my life so far. I have played in places that I thought were important. I like playing in Carnegie Hall; I enjoyed playing in Paris; it made me very happy to please the critics in St. Petersburg. I have played for people I thought were important; music critics of major newspapers, foreign heads of state. The most important concert of my entire life took place in a nursing home in a small Midwestern town a few years ago.

I was playing with a very dear friend of mine who is a violinist. We began, as we often do, with Aaron Copland’s Sonata, which was written during World War II and dedicated to a young friend of Copland’s, a young pilot who was shot down during the war. Now we often talk to our audiences about the pieces we are going to play rather than providing them with written program notes. But in this case, because we began the concert with this piece, we decided to talk about the piece later in the program and to just come out and play the music without explanation.

Midway through the piece, an elderly man seated in a wheelchair near the front of the concert hall began to weep. This man, whom I later met, was clearly a soldier-even in his 70?s, it was clear from his buzz-cut hair, square jaw and general demeanor that he had spent a good deal of his life in the military. I thought it a little bit odd that someone would be moved to tears by that particular movement of that particular piece, but it wasn’t the first time I’ve heard crying in a concert and we went on with the concert and finished the piece.

When we came out to play the next piece on the program, we decided to talk about both the first and second pieces, and we described the circumstances in which the Copland was written and mentioned its dedication to a downed pilot. The man in the front of the audience became so disturbed that he had to leave the auditorium. I honestly figured that we would not see him again, but he did come backstage afterwards, tears and all, to explain himself.

What he told us was this: “During World War II, I was a pilot, and I was in an aerial combat situation where one of my team’s planes was hit. I watched my friend bail out, and watched his parachute open, but the Japanese planes which had engaged us returned and machine gunned across the parachute chords so as to separate the parachute from the pilot, and I watched my friend drop away into the ocean, realizing that he was lost. I have not thought about this for many years, but during that first piece of music you played, this memory returned to me so vividly that it was as though I was reliving it. I didn’t understand why this was happening, why now, but then when you came out to explain that this piece of music was written to commemorate a lost pilot, it was a little more than I could handle. How does the music do that? How did it find those feelings and those memories in me?”

Remember the Greeks: music is the study of invisible relationships between internal objects. The concert in the nursing home was the most important work I have ever done. For me to play for this old soldier and help him connect, somehow, with Aaron Copland, and to connect their memories of their lost friends, to help him remember and mourn his friend, this is my work. This is why music matters.

What follows is part of the talk I will give to this year’s freshman class when I welcome them a few days from now. The responsibility I will charge your sons and daughters with is this:

"If we were a medical school, and you were here as a med student practicing appendectomies, you’d take your work very seriously because you would imagine that some night at two AM someone is going to waltz into your emergency room and you’re going to have to save their life." Well, my friends, someday at 8 PM someone is going to walk into your concert hall and bring you a mind that is confused, a heart that is overwhelmed, a soul that is weary. Whether they go out whole again will depend partly on how well you do your craft.

You’re not here to become an entertainer, and you don’t have to sell yourself. The truth is you don’t have anything to sell; being a musician isn’t about dispensing a product, like selling used cars. I’m not an entertainer; I’m a lot closer to a paramedic, a firefighter, a rescue worker. You’re here to become a sort of therapist for the human soul, a spiritual version of a chiropractor, physical therapist, someone who works with our insides to see if they get things to line up, to see if we can come into harmony with ourselves and be healthy and happy and well.

Frankly, ladies and gentlemen, I expect you not only to master music; I expect you to save the planet. If there is a future wave of wellness on this planet, of harmony, of peace, of an end to war, of mutual understanding, of equality, of fairness, I don’t expect it will come from a government, a military force or a corporation. I no longer even expect it to come from the religions of the world, which together seem to have brought us as much war as they have peace. If there is a future of peace for humankind, if there is to be an understanding of how these invisible, internal things should fit together, I expect it will come from the artists, because that’s what we do. As in the concentration camp and the evening of 9/11, the artists are the ones who might be able to help us with our internal, invisible lives.”

[Premmy]

You do realize that "musical" is the most precise word that one can use to describe the nuances involved in music, right? The emotional pulls, dynamic swells? The dramatic accelerando that brings you up to the climax of a symphony? The harmonic density, played perfectly in tune by the orchestra? The spontaneous composition of a fresh melodic line over the improvised chord progression provided by the pianist, guitarist, and bassist on the bandstand by the tenor saxophonist, while receiving impromptu answers to his musical ideas and questions by the drummer?

So yes, music is musical.

I don't think rap is.

Ergo, I don't think rap is music.

Try to keep up.
I'm keeping up, it's still bullshit, baby.
edit:
1: I can't edit or bold text in the swap tag? bullshit
2; Even with that big-long story about how music touches the soul and whatnot,you're still disrespecting the technique, skill and artistry involved in rapping for the sake of your own bullshit opinions. You're here saying, "Because they are rapping, they are not speaking to the human soul. Because what they are doing is rhythmic instead of harmonic, it is empty and requires no skill, no soul, no artistry, and I'm going to justify what I say with wordy bullshit that all really amounts to "no, fuck you, you're different, so you're wrong".

[Fenris]

Come, Captain Teenager, throw me another platitude that will TOTALLY OPEN MY EYES, MAN

rap is teh way

[Fenris]

FINALLY SOMETHING WITH CONTENT

You're here saying, "Because they are rapping, they are not speaking to the human soul.
Care to point out where I said that?

Because what they are doing is rhythmic instead of harmonic melodic,
Yes.

it is empty and requires no skill, no soul, no artistry,
Care to point out where I said that?

and I'm going to justify what I say with wordy bullshit that all really amounts to "no, fuck you, you're different, so you're wrong".

No, I'm justifying it with what amounts to "no, fuck you, you're being a condescending dickbutt who refuses to actually provide more than belittling insults to the other side and then pretends to take the high ground, so you're wrong."

[Fenris]

you're being a condescending dickbutt who refuses to actually provide more than belittling insults to the other side and then pretends to take the high ground
IRONY

[Fifthfiend]

Come, Captain Teenager, throw me another platitude that will TOTALLY OPEN MY EYES, MAN

rap is teh way

You literally began your participation in this thread with "rap is not music", the most cliched opinion about music for the last 30+ years.

Basically what I'm saying is you don't seem to realize the sheer extent to which you have no grounds to be talking about anyone else's platitudes here.

[Fenris]

You literally began your participation in this thread with "rap is not music", the most cliched opinion about music for the last 30+ years.

Luckily that wasn't where I ended my participation in this thread! :knowledge:

Basically what I'm saying is you don't seem to realize the sheer extent to which you have no grounds to be talking about anyone else's platitudes here.

IRONY

[Premmy]

FINALLY SOMETHING WITH CONTENT


Care to point out where I said that?
Your entire post was about how music has emotional depth and complexity in the artistry of the work itself. And your story expanded on that idea. Awesome, I agree. You claim that Rap is not music. If you are defining music by the complexity and emotional impact it has, then saying something is NOT music is saying it lacks the traits that define it, I.e. Depth and complexity.

Care to point out where I said that?


goes hand in hand with the idea that it lacks depth and Complexity

No, I'm justifying it with what amounts to "no, fuck you, you're being a condescending dickbutt who refuses to actually provide more than belittling insults to the other side and then pretends to take the high ground, so you're wrong."
Because presenting a speech about how a beautiful song made a man cry as proof that rap isn't music isn't saying "No, rap isn't capable of bringing out these emotions because it's not one of these instruments"

edit: The Point of this thread has escaped me and now somewhere Lumenskir is laughing at me.

[Fenris]

Your entire post was about how music has emotional depth and complexity in the artistry of the work itself. And your story expanded on that idea. Awesome, I agree. You claim that Rap is not music. If you are defining music by the complexity and emotional impact it has, then saying something is NOT music is saying it lacks the traits that define it, I.e. Depth and complexity.
No.

goes hand in hand with the idea that it lacks depth and ComplexityNo.

Because presenting a speech about how a beautiful song made a man cry as proof that rap isn't music isn't saying "No, rap isn't capable of bringing out these emotions because it's not one of these instruments"
You are the champion of straw men.

If you care to respond to the post I actually made, and not the one that you made for me, by all means.

edit: The Point of this thread has escaped me and now somewhere Lumenskir is laughing at me.

Don't worry, I am too.

[Fifthfiend]

Luckily

Not really.

IRONY

Not really, at least not in the way you seem to be trying to claim it is.


Care to point out where I said that?

In

You do realize that "musical" is the most precise word that one can use to describe the nuances involved in music, right? The emotional pulls, dynamic swells? The dramatic accelerando that brings you up to the climax of a symphony? The harmonic density, played perfectly in tune by the orchestra? The spontaneous composition of a fresh melodic line over the improvised chord progression provided by the pianist, guitarist, and bassist on the bandstand by the tenor saxophonist, while receiving impromptu answers to his musical ideas and questions by the drummer?defining 'music' by way of pure appeal to emotion

you're defining what is "musical" by pure appeal to emotionalism, so as Premmy identifies, your subsequent determination that rap isn't music necessarily implies that rap doesn't express emotion.

At minimum, you're trying really hard to fault Premmy for using terms which are no more actually probably at least a bit less airy and undefined than your own, which again, really isn't irony at all, or at least, not ironic the way you want it to be.

somewhere Lumenskir is laughing at me.

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyup

[Fenris]

I should probably point out that I have no problem with Premmy defining rap as music, I just don't like when he tells me that I should too, especially when I have laid out in depth my personal definition of music.

Not to say that my definition is right or wrong, it's just mine. He can call the art of domesticating sheep music for all I give a damn but that doesn't mean that I have to and I guess the main point of my argument is that music is an incredibly personal thing and to tell somebody else that their definition is wrong because it's not your definition is stupid, stupid.

[Fenris]

you're defining what is "musical" by pure appeal to emotionalism, so as Premmy identifies, your subsequent determination that rap isn't music necessarily implies that rap doesn't express emotion.

It doesn't carry that emotional context for me!

It might for him!

which again, really isn't irony at all, or at least, not ironic the way you want it to be.
I was actually agreeing with you that I totally started off with a platitude and then called someone else out on it.

Anyway, it's goin on 8 PM here so I'm gonna go practice for a coupla hours.

I mean yeah I'm bringing up that I'm practicing music in a music thread because I have the relevant degrees and all but I'm just doing so so y'alls know that I won't be around to answer your assuredly incredibly well-thought out points for a little while.

Rejoice properly.

[Fifthfiend]

I should probably point out that I have no problem with Premmy defining rap as music, I just don't like when he tells me that I should too, especially when I have laid out in depth my personal definition of music.

Not to say that my definition is right or wrong, it's just mine. He can call the art of domesticating sheep music for all I give a damn but that doesn't mean that I have to and I guess the main point of my argument is that music is an incredibly personal thing and to tell somebody else that their definition is wrong because it's not your definition is stupid, stupid.

I've actually tried fairly hard to discuss this reasonably with you, I guess I'll see if you want to reconsider that remark before I decide how to respond.

[Fenris]

I've actually tried fairly hard to discuss this reasonably, I guess I'll see if you want to reconsider that remark before I decide how to respond.

(I was attempting to make a funny)

[Azisien]

Mmmm this grilled cheese sandwich is positively musical.

[Krylo]

Fenris, you realize that your big shpiel of copy pasta from some dude actually means dick all, right?

He could have wrote the same exact thing about the reactions people have to his poetry, or his paintings, or his graffiti, or the movies he produces, or any other art.

In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say that you missed the point of his speech if you're using it to validate your love of melodic music over rap music. He, multiple times, says 'the arts'. He concentrates on music, yes, because that is what he is going to be teaching. Because that is what he is an expert on.

However, it's pretty clear that even he realizes that everything from paintings, to comics, to the spoken word, when applied properly, is just as artful. Just as capable of 'moving around those invisible blocks inside us'. And if I'm wrong about him? If he doesn't? Then fuck that guy, he doesn't know what he's talking about, and millions upon billions of viewers of everything from great works of arts in museums, to shitty drawings given to them by their three year olds, to people watching a play--professional or amateur--or even a well done movie, can all attest to that.

ART does that, and even if you think Rap is just poetry to a beat, that still makes it art, and it still makes it just as valid to plug into every point at which he said 'music' in that speech.

Edit: I mean I don't care if you define music as sounds you make while you sleep or whatever other thing, but that speech was anything BUT a defense of your point.

[Fifthfiend]

(I was attempting to make a funny)

In that case, I shall elect not to run with the post wherein I call you an ignorant, irrational, small-minded child. (badump-tsh :))

MOVING ON

I should probably point out that I have no problem with Premmy defining rap as music, I just don't like when he tells me that I should too, especially when I have laid out in depth my personal definition of music.

Not to say that my definition is right or wrong, it's just mine. He can call the art of domesticating sheep music for all I give a damn but that doesn't mean that I have to and I guess the main point of my argument is that music is an incredibly personal thing and to tell somebody else that their definition is wrong because it's not your definition is stupid, stupid.

The thing is this really isn't the case. What music we like is utterly personal, "what music is" really isn't and is basically the point at which you're making a judgment of the validity of other people's experiences. Yes a measure of subjectivity involved, no "the buzzing sound the flourescent lights in my office make" is not the same as "a form deliberately created as music, listened to by millions of people as music, danced to as music, frequently incorporating other forms which nobody is even arguing aren't music, and generally fulfilling those roles which a society would use music to fill". You may have spelled out what you consider music, but "only the stuff that I enjoy" really isn't a fair or a useful definition.

Especially when your definition of what is and isn't music happens to make room for music you don't even purport to enjoy, such as country, but excludes this particular form of music which frequently has had its legitimacy glibly derided in a similar manner. I mean, are other, non-Western musical traditions not music as well? Does sitar not count? Is classical Chinese ruled out because it's heterphonic instead of harmonic?

And all of this is before even bringing in this from your first post

I would appreciate rap more if they were just honest with what the majority of it is-poetry with a beat. Not music.

where you outright say that you're making a judgement on what other people do and should consider music, to the point that you say that people are being dishonest(!) by describing rap as such.

So again, I think it is possible to see where the eternal and unresolvable debate about what constitutes good music, is separate from saying what "isn't music", in a way where the latter distinctively unfair not even just to people's personal tastes but to the communities of people whose music it is.

[Fenris]

Snip
I disagree with none of this, in fact I do think rap is art. It, to me, is simply a mixture of rhythm and prose. Much like music can be defined as rhythm and pitch.

snip
Yes I have contradicted myself many times throughout this thread and I totally understand that.

My own thoughts on the matter are conflicted and often contradictory!

But it is not "stuff I like". I never said that, either.

But yeah, my first post was stupid.

[phil_]

let's cut the bullshit pretending that we're actually going to change anyone's mind here.Just popping to say, "Well duh." I posted only one line for a reason.

[Lumenskir]

"It Sucks!"
"Nuh-Uh!

EDIT: Should I have included like a /thread or something? To make it official or whatever?

[Fenris]

What thread were you reading?

Fuck it (and by extension you), I am taking my ball and going home.

[Lumenskir]

/thread

[Fenris]

walked in to that like what

[phil_]

Oh, I forgot to mention that, when Fenris posted a rather long story, I clicked it and was all like, "Whoa, that is a rather long story."

[Premmy]

EDIT: Should I have included like a /thread or something? To make it official or whatever?

Fuck. yooooooouuuuuuuuu

[Magus]

Alright so we've established that rap is objectively music I guess, but this thread was supposed to be about Premmy convincing us that it is good, if we don't like it. Thus, I demand that Premmy now convince me to enjoy rap music despite my not liking it.

My reasons for not liking it, to aid Premmy in this, are thusly:

1. It usually doesn't involve a heavy metal guitar, unless it is Rage Against the Machine. And I personally have enjoyed Rage Against the Machine at times, so don't bother with this particular subgenre of rap/rock as an example to make me enjoy rap. There are numerous differences that are quite obvious. At best I am enjoying a subgenre crossbreed of rap and rock, not rap itself.

2. There is a distinct lack of fantasy lyrics about epic quests in rap music which is much more common in heavy metal, and particularly common in fantasy power metal. Note: quoting Soulja Boy lyrics will only hurt your position.

3. Fantasy power metal is usually based on fantasy novels I have enjoyed and read, are there are any rap songs based on fantasy novels I have read?

So, if you can find a rap song which: involves the use of electric guitar but doesn't sound like Rage Against the Machine, is about epic fantasy quests, and is based on a novel, I will enjoy said song. So, Premmy, if you can meet this challenge, you will have succeeded in the original premise of this thread which I believe was to convince me that rap is greater than American cartoons (no mean feat, as we have not even parsed that particular juncture yet, which will probably require something involving Samurai Champloo, perhaps?)