Bethesda Not Taking On Dungeons & Dragons At All, Instead Making Generic Fantasy Game

[Seil]

I could go with "Bethesda Remaking Oblivion," or "Bethesda Taking On D&D MMO," but what's the point? Another adventure game from Bethesda.

http://static.arstechnica.net/assets/2010/03/hunted2-thumb-640xauto-12621.jpg

The newest issue of the Playstation magazine - which had a three page bit on Killzone 3 but mention Dragon Age II in passing saying you could buy an episode of Quore to find out more, but that's neither here nor there - told me that Bethesda is working on Dungeons and Dragons. (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/03/bethesdas-new-property-online-co-op-dungeon-crawler-a-hoy.ars) Or more specifically, a D&D style adventure game.

...So, the obvious thing to say is bugs? (And I'm not talking about bugbears here.) Oblivion and Fallout were let down by a few issues - like "I can't finish the Thief quest line because of a bug." issues.

Anyway, I thought it neat that others were accusing Bioware and Bethesda of killing the JRPG scene. (http://http://dualshockers.com/2010/08/05/did-bioware-and-bethesda-kill-the-jrpg/)

http://static.arstechnica.com/Gaming/wargardemon.jpg

[Bells]

Wait... what's the difference between a simple Fantasy RPG and a "D&D Styled Fantasy RPG" ??

I mean, unless they are using D&D Rulesets... isn't this just "Like Dragon age"?

[BloodyMage]

They're going to have to use D&D rules sets or it's just going to feel so generic.

[Ryong]

I'm still waiting for a PC game using the 4th ed rules that plays like the tabletop game, not some weird real-time thing...And I guess this is still not it?

[Jagos]

Ok... So...

How will they differentiate from DnD Online?

Are they going to use 2nd rulebook or try for 4th? Either way, I'm thinking Fighters are going to get screwed over.

[MuMu]

I'm guessing it'll be like the usual Bethesda game but with the latest DnD rules and less action-y.


Anyway, I thought it neat that others were accusing Bioware and Bethesda of killing the JRPG scene. (http://www.dualshockers.com/2010/08/05/did-bioware-and-bethesda-kill-the-jrpg/)

And this is an awful article.

[Loyal]

The link's broken, too.

But really, the guy's whining just as hard as those he accuses.

And assuming the JRPG scene is dying (Squeenix would seem to disagree), it's pretty unlikely - actually, make that impossible - that it's the work of one or two companies and the games they make. Gamers are the ones who decide, with their wallets, whether a genre is "alive" or not.

[DarkDrgon]

I would give up my next 3 paychecks for a new breath of fire game :(

next 4 if I could get Ryu as dlc in MvC3 (why is there no thread for that, by the way)

[Pip Boy]

And even if they did kill the JRPG scene, if they did it by making better games, then who's complaining? That means the market is working.

[Bells]

JRPG's never died, they evolved. Much like WRPG's. But JRPG's are older, more wildly spread, and varied... also considering that most WRPG's of sucees are based on other stuff (Quite often a Pen and Paper RPG system or fantasy Book aimed at Pen and paper RPG players), you can do a clean claim that JRPG's are usually more original in storytelling, scenario and gameplay... it gets stale over the years on characterization and Plot, but... you there is a lot stale on WRPG's too..

[rpgdemon]

JRPG's never died, they evolved. Much like WRPG's. But JRPG's are older, more wildly spread, and varied... also considering that most WRPG's of sucees are based on other stuff (Quite often a Pen and Paper RPG system or fantasy Book aimed at Pen and paper RPG players), you can do a clean claim that JRPG's are usually more original in storytelling, scenario and gameplay... it gets stale over the years on characterization and Plot, but... you there is a lot stale on WRPG's too..

Bwah? JRPGs are more original in storytelling, scenario, and gameplay?

You mean the genre which has been telling the story of prettyboys saving the world from huge evil thing #5 (And only that, except for Chrono Trigger, back in the 90s, really), via random encounters and turn based battles have been original in storytelling, scenario, and gameplay?

[greed]

I imagine the difference between a fantasy RPG and a DnD styled ones is probably to do with party control and a dice roll based combat system. So yeah think Dragon Age for the most recent example.


Bwah? JRPGs are more original in storytelling, scenario, and gameplay?

You mean the genre which has been telling the story of prettyboys saving the world from huge evil thing #5 (And only that, except for Chrono Trigger, back in the 90s, really), via random encounters and turn based battles have been original in storytelling, scenario, and gameplay?

Wow. There is so much dumb bullshit in this post, I needed waders to get through it.

[Bells]

Bwah? JRPGs are more original in storytelling, scenario, and gameplay?

You mean the genre which has been telling the story of prettyboys saving the world from huge evil thing #5 (And only that, except for Chrono Trigger, back in the 90s, really), via random encounters and turn based battles have been original in storytelling, scenario, and gameplay?

Original as in... it has more variety in ways it uses to tell it's stories and created many if not most of the "rules" which all RPG games follow.

Storytelling as in the mechanics to tell an story and make it's world seem more lively..

And gameplay, because, really, it just created a fuckload of concepts and ideas that a lot of games use to this day.

Just to elaborate with a broad stroke over an example... From Baldur's Gate in 1998 to Neverwinter Nights 2 in 2006, counting all the games inbetween that the memory evokes from remembering these two titles you're going to see a slower and lesser evolution In how the game tells it's story, how it plays and how the world is portraited to the player. Hell, you can even tap into "Action RPG" unniverse and toss in games like Fable and Elder Scrolls or Dragon Age, that Shakens the mold but never trully break it.

And those are all good to great games! One could argue that they [i]didn't have[i] to change the formula, but that's another point all together. Thing is, in the same time line you can also find a ton of -good- JRPG's that varies wildly their methods to tell stories, present the world, create it's own mythology and on how the game is played...

For instance, don't think you can Play a Sword of Mana game and then Jump in a SaGa Frontier and expect everthing to feel similar... But if you Playn Icewind Dale and then jump to Neverwinter Nights the adaptation from one play style ot the other is much, much shorter.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm still waiting for a PC game using the 4th ed rules that plays like the tabletop game, not some weird real-time thing...And I guess this is still not it?

4th ed is for posers!

[Mannix]

As for the Bethesda bug issue, the pictures make it look like they're using one of their two new non-gambryo engines so hopefully improvements have been made in that department.

[Marc v4.0]

There is a very clear and distinct difference between "Developed by Bethesda" and "PUBLISHED by Bethesda"

[Meister]

Wow. There is so much dumb bullshit in this post, I needed waders to get through it.
You may want to rephrase that or at least explain why because that doesn't seem to be so unreasonable a description to warrant "dumb bullshit."
4th ed is for posers!
Yo this post was funny back in the D&D advice thread but please don't make it an actual thing you do every time.

[Funka Genocide]

But 4th edition IS for posers.

Also, there is all ready a video game that mimics 4th edition gameplay almost exactly, and it was in fact released prior to 4th edition!

It's called World of Warcraft, noobs.

Also, JRPGs are shit marketed toward japanese children. They were cool when they first came out because the majority of us were children ourselves and it was something new and interesting. The innate cultural differences of the games can be very enthralling to developing minds, much like anime. But what at first comes off as exciting and new will soon devolved into "wow, another 130 pound blonde kid saving the world from some eldritch horror."

The culture shock wears off and you're left with a big steaming plate of "this has been done before, assholes."

Also, western RPG is the original. JRPGs are mainly a result of homage to the original DnD, which in and of itself borrowed heavily from western fantasy writers such as tolkien, who is pretty much the basis for all western fantasy writing.

Bethesda and Bioware create games for people who grew up playing fantasy based games, the operative words being "grew up."

I'm sure I could sit down and play whatever random crap squeenix has out right now well enough, but at this point all the glaring errors in pacing, characterization and plot would likely cause me to throw a fit and write a strongly worded letter in bad Japanese.

[Meister]

All y'all shut up about which edition of D&D you don't like nobody cares.

Especially since as far as I can see this isn't actually a D&D licensed game, just a writer mentioning D&D in their article about Bethesda's new IP and Seil jumping to conclusions so no more D&D talk in here unless you can prove me wrong.

[Ravashak]

Funka, lay off of the booze in the morning, not everyone's like you.
For my part, I tried and loathed DA:O, for example, while I could play FF13 for hours and hours. If this means I'm not a full person in your eyes, I'd recommend you get yourself checked in at a psychiatric ward, or go into politics.

[bluestarultor]

But 4th edition IS for posers.

Also, there is all ready a video game that mimics 4th edition gameplay almost exactly, and it was in fact released prior to 4th edition!

It's called World of Warcraft, noobs.

Also, JRPGs are shit marketed toward japanese children. They were cool when they first came out because the majority of us were children ourselves and it was something new and interesting. The innate cultural differences of the games can be very enthralling to developing minds, much like anime. But what at first comes off as exciting and new will soon devolved into "wow, another 130 pound blonde kid saving the world from some eldritch horror."

The culture shock wears off and you're left with a big steaming plate of "this has been done before, assholes."

Also, western RPG is the original. JRPGs are mainly a result of homage to the original DnD, which in and of itself borrowed heavily from western fantasy writers such as tolkien, who is pretty much the basis for all western fantasy writing.

Bethesda and Bioware create games for people who grew up playing fantasy based games, the operative words being "grew up."

I'm sure I could sit down and play whatever random crap squeenix has out right now well enough, but at this point all the glaring errors in pacing, characterization and plot would likely cause me to throw a fit and write a strongly worded letter in bad Japanese.

Wow. Addressing this before anyone gives you both barrels.


First off, the JRPG does have basic routes in D&D. Some 20 years ago, since they were limited by technology. In that period, they developed their own systems completely removed from tabletop games (trust me, I've seen some of the math), developed storytelling methods that are now being borrowed by Western developers, and have continued to bring their own cultural identity to the table, offering variety in the market.

Just looking at Final Fantasy alone, they've developed several battle systems, including the often-used ATB, brought in battle mechanics with no Western analog, like Blue Magic, and have done a WAY better job handling linear storytelling than anyone in the West has so far, since Western developers often forsake the main plot in favor of trying to pretend you're not just as much on rails if you want to finish the game.


You're cherry-picking aesthetic issues. Your argument could easily be turned around and stated "all WRPGs are about generic refrigerator-men shooting aliens IIIIIIIN SPAAAAAAACE!" That kind of hyper-masculine machismo with its ultra-grit caters to no more mature of an audience than a JRPG. Arguably less in many cases.


I mean, really? You're arguing that JRPGs continue to rip off Tolkien-based fantasy when WRPGs are "completely and totally original?"

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm216/Aquatica50/Final%20Fantasy/Red_XIII_by_TheTyro.jpg
Blink Dog? Displacer?


http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc9/AseraeUchiha/Dragon%20Age/Alistair_Campfire.jpg
Totally original?


http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o314/SGTDavidCarson/SpaceMarine.jpg
Hold on, I think I know this one. Uhhh... Halo? Gears? ...Iron Man?


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/armen123armen/Halo/KiNGPWNywhite.jpghttp://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w85/dreampage/vanquish_screen420.jpg
Oh, fuck it.



I think you get my point. That's not to say that JRPGs don't stick to what they know, but by God so do WRPGs.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Looking at the trailers and the website of the game, I don't know where the DnD claim is. It doesn't look particularly DnD, no more so than any other RPG game.

[Pip Boy]

I gotta say this "JRPG is more original" vs "WRPG is more original" argument doesn't make even the tiniest bit of sense since they are probably both the least original and inspired genres on earth.

I mean, lets face it, its been years since I played a JRPG that had anything in it that actually struck me as new or original. Especially since final fantasy got involved. Its mostly just the same game 13 times, and they've been getting sequentially worse since the 5th. (Christal Chronicles is exempt from this blatant generalization; some were better some were worse, but overall its been declining).

WRPGs on the other hand almost all look like Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls, to the point that it made me very, very happy to see Fallout 3 and New Vegas make a change of pace from Elves and wizards and dwarves and cults oh noes.

[rpgdemon]

Also, JRPGs are shit marketed toward japanese children. They were cool when they first came out because the majority of us were children ourselves and it was something new and interesting. The innate cultural differences of the games can be very enthralling to developing minds, much like anime. But what at first comes off as exciting and new will soon devolved into "wow, another 130 pound blonde kid saving the world from some eldritch horror."

The culture shock wears off and you're left with a big steaming plate of "this has been done before, assholes."

I don't know if this is an entirely fair, or at all fair, description. It's not as if you can say, "THIS GENRE IS SHIT", since tastes vary. What you can say is that the games are very ingrained into being the genre, and that there is very little change from game to game, because of this.

If it's a style that you like, it's good for you, but it doesn't mean that JRPGs are evolving and advancing storytelling, gameplay, et cetera.

I mean, the fact that random encounters are still a thing, when they were first implemented as a technological constraint type thing, is testament to the fact that JRPGs devoutly want to follow the JRPG formula.

[greed]

How many recent JRPGs have had random encounters though? They seem restricted to niche "old school" throwback games now, same as isometric party control and pause based combat in WRPGs. Shit even the latest Dragon Quest didn't have them.

Anyone who thinks JRPGs are stagnant and have shitty writing and direction need to play Demons Souls or NIER.

You may want to rephrase that or at least explain why because that doesn't seem to be so unreasonable a description to warrant "dumb bullshit.".


Right sorry Meister, was just replying to hyperbole with hyperbole. The "dumb shit" is basically thinking ChronoTrigger was the last RPG that deviated from the formula. I doubt RPGDemon actually thinks that, but I felt like responding in kind.

Bethesda and Bioware create games for people who grew up playing fantasy based games, the operative words being "grew up."

I'm sure I could sit down and play whatever random crap squeenix has out right now well enough, but at this point all the glaring errors in pacing, characterization and plot would likely cause me to throw a fit and write a strongly worded letter in bad Japanese.


Bioware is for people who grew up? Maybe if you ignore the pathetic nerd bait romances ("Jack: I'm a tough bitch but then I'm weak little girl.") cheesy writing and cliched plots (the latter two I enjoy, but I have no pretences about it being better or more more mature than most JRPGs, sure it beats the Star Oceans and the Final Fantasies, but not really the Tales and SMTs). Bethesda games are just bigass sprawling open worlds to run around in with gaping flaws that need to be fixed by large amounts of modding. I mean both Bioware and Bethesda games are mostly good (everything in Vanillablivion sucks outside of the Assassin quests, and Jade Empire was mediocre at best) but you're kidding yourself if you think they have great writing or complex and innovative gameplay. Now Obsidian has made games with mature intelligent writing, but then so has Atlus, Grasshopper Manufacture and From Software.


Funka, lay off of the booze in the morning, not everyone's like you.
For my part, I tried and loathed DA:O, for example, while I could play FF13 for hours and hours. If this means I'm not a full person in your eyes, I'd recommend you get yourself checked in at a psychiatric ward, or go into politics.

In fairness to Funka people who enjoy FF13 really do need some kind of help, that game was abysmal for all the reasons he lashed out about JRPGs.


I gotta say this "JRPG is more original" vs "WRPG is more original" argument doesn't make even the tiniest bit of sense since they are probably both the least original and inspired genres on earth.

I mean, lets face it, its been years since I played a JRPG that had anything in it that actually struck me as new or original. Especially since final fantasy got involved. Its mostly just the same game 13 times, and they've been getting sequentially worse since the 5th. (Christal Chronicles is exempt from this blatant generalization; some were better some were worse, but overall its been declining).

WRPGs on the other hand almost all look like Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls, to the point that it made me very, very happy to see Fallout 3 and New Vegas make a change of pace from Elves and wizards and dwarves and cults oh noes.

Wait. You think the FFs have been getting worse since 5? Man fuck that, they didn't get good until 6 and 12's the best. 4 was half decent, 1's too ancient for me to really judge, 2 was horrifyingly bad and 3 was okay but considerably worse than it's DQ and Phantasy Star contemporaries.

On WRPGs, name how many RPGs in the last 10 years that have revolved around elves and shit? Honestly I'd say less than half of them, and the bulk of that half being in the area of 2000-2003 when the Baldur's Gates and Icewind Dales came out.

[Marc v4.0]

Wow. Addressing this before anyone gives you both barrels.


First off, the JRPG does have basic routes in D&D. Some 20 years ago, since they were limited by technology. In that period, they developed their own systems completely removed from tabletop games (trust me, I've seen some of the math), developed storytelling methods that are now being borrowed by Western developers, and have continued to bring their own cultural identity to the table, offering variety in the market.

Just looking at Final Fantasy alone, they've developed several battle systems, including the often-used ATB, brought in battle mechanics with no Western analog, like Blue Magic, and have done a WAY better job handling linear storytelling than anyone in the West has so far, since Western developers often forsake the main plot in favor of trying to pretend you're not just as much on rails if you want to finish the game.


You're cherry-picking aesthetic issues. Your argument could easily be turned around and stated "all WRPGs are about generic refrigerator-men shooting aliens IIIIIIIN SPAAAAAAACE!" That kind of hyper-masculine machismo with its ultra-grit caters to no more mature of an audience than a JRPG. Arguably less in many cases.


I mean, really? You're arguing that JRPGs continue to rip off Tolkien-based fantasy when WRPGs are "completely and totally original?"

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm216/Aquatica50/Final%20Fantasy/Red_XIII_by_TheTyro.jpg
Blink Dog? Displacer?


http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc9/AseraeUchiha/Dragon%20Age/Alistair_Campfire.jpg
Totally original?


http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o314/SGTDavidCarson/SpaceMarine.jpg
Hold on, I think I know this one. Uhhh... Halo? Gears? ...Iron Man?


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/armen123armen/Halo/KiNGPWNywhite.jpghttp://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w85/dreampage/vanquish_screen420.jpg
Oh, fuck it.



I think you get my point. That's not to say that JRPGs don't stick to what they know, but by God so do WRPGs.

You are a terrible person who has completely reamed his point to death through the ears because you used pictures from SHOOTER games to make a point about Western RPGs.

GUH. I am not sure which is more insulting, that you just didn't even try or that you thought it would just fly by without a notice.

[Seil]

Uh... wow. Didn't expect so much hostility from a thread (vaugely) about D&D.

[Steel Shadow]

In fairness to Funka people who enjoy FF13 really do need some kind of help, that game was abysmal for all the reasons he lashed out about JRPGs.


I dunno, I really enjoyed the story and the graphics. The combat system was pretty fun. Unfortunately that's all it damn well had. 'S like they looked at 12, and decided to make the anti-12 RPG, so instead of lousy combat and endless side quests, we got fun combat and rail-roaded to hell and back.

...But yeah, this game has nothing to do with DnD. Looks interesting, but I'm not foaming at the mouth or anything.

[bluestarultor]

How many recent JRPGs have had random encounters though? They seem restricted to niche "old school" throwback games now, same as isometric party control and pause based combat in WRPGs. Shit even the latest Dragon Quest didn't have them.

Anyone who thinks JRPGs are stagnant and have shitty writing and direction need to play Demons Souls or NIER.




Right sorry Meister, was just replying to hyperbole with hyperbole. The "dumb shit" is basically thinking ChronoTrigger was the last RPG that deviated from the formula. I doubt RPGDemon actually thinks that, but I felt like responding in kind.



Bioware is for people who grew up? Maybe if you ignore the pathetic nerd bait romances ("Jack: I'm a tough bitch but then I'm weak little girl.") cheesy writing and cliched plots (the latter two I enjoy, but I have no pretences about it being better or more more mature than most JRPGs, sure it beats the Star Oceans and the Final Fantasies, but not really the Tales and SMTs). Bethesda games are just bigass sprawling open worlds to run around in with gaping flaws that need to be fixed by large amounts of modding. I mean both Bioware and Bethesda games are mostly good (everything in Vanillablivion sucks outside of the Assassin quests, and Jade Empire was mediocre at best) but you're kidding yourself if you think they have great writing or complex and innovative gameplay. Now Obsidian has made games with mature intelligent writing, but then so has Atlus, Grasshopper Manufacture and From Software.




In fairness to Funka people who enjoy FF13 really do need some kind of help, that game was abysmal for all the reasons he lashed out about JRPGs.




Wait. You think the FFs have been getting worse since 5? Man fuck that, they didn't get good until 6 and 12's the best. 4 was half decent, 1's too ancient for me to really judge, 2 was horrifyingly bad and 3 was okay but considerably worse than it's DQ and Phantasy Star contemporaries.

On WRPGs, name how many RPGs in the last 10 years that have revolved around elves and shit? Honestly I'd say less than half of them, and the bulk of that half being in the area of 2000-2003 when the Baldur's Gates and Icewind Dales came out.

Being brutally honest, I really don't count shooters as RPGs. More like they just picked up certain RPG elements. They worked perfectly fine functionally before that.

That limiting the numbers a bit more, I think the last bunch of RPGs made by the West within the scope of my memory (so 20 years, not 10) have been The Elder Scrolls series, Lands of Lore series, Eye of the Beholder, Baldur's Gate, Diablo, WoW, Everquest, several other fantasy MMOs, Mass Effect (since that actually makes the RPG part the main focus), Fallout, everything made by Molyneux, and DA:O. Or, to put it this way, once you cut out everything that's less an RPG and more games with RPG elements tacked on and limit it to your actual RPGs and dungeon crawlers, 90% of them are Tolkien-based.




@Marc: I was just assuming that people were letting anything with RPG elements fly these days from how they were talking. As I said, I don't consider shooters in the least RPGs.

For that matter, the shooter genre has a buttload of its own issues as addressed by those examples.

Also, I suggest you step away from the computer for a few minutes if you're so insulted. I guess you have every right to be with me assuming the worst about people classifying stuff poorly, but font size 3764 is indicative that you might want to go get a glass of water before coming back.


Edit:
At any rate, remove the last 3 images and the point pretty well stands. FF has a few D&D villains left over from all the way back in FF1, like the Flayers, but past that, it's about as far removed from D&D for the most part (excluding the MMOs, but even FANS of the MMOs agree they shouldn't have been numbered titles) as anything else. FF hasn't really played by D&D rules since the NES short of the character classes established back then.

[Funka Genocide]

Hey bros, if the shoe fits you don't have to shove it up your own ass.

Or something like that. *shrug*

[RobinStarwing]

As someone who has played and enjoyed both JRPGs and WRPGs, both have their pros and cons.

I enjoy Baldur's Gate II (SoA & ToB), Icewind Dale series, Neverwinter Nights I, and the KOTOR games. I also like Fable and Jade Empire. I find these games fun due to how you can evolve and build the character. The story is more open-ended with moral-based choices much of the time which can effect your ending. I do find them ultimately lacking in plot and story though as well as being a tad predictable in some ways.

On the other hand, my JRPGs run the gambit on my PS2 and DS from the DS port of FF4 and ChronoTrigger to having Rogue Galaxy, Star Oceans: Till The End of Time, Final Fantasy X/X-2/XII, Xenosaga I-III, and Radiata Stories. They are strong on the story and character development and you sometimes don't see something coming at certain points. What they lack is the kind of open-ended character development you have in a WRPG. The only one that breaks this mold to some degree is FFXII with the License Grid. You still don't have control of the story but that is not what one plays a JRPG for.

What I would like is Bioware or Bethesda getting together with Square Enix or someone to make a hybrid of the two that takes the best of both worlds and leaves out as much of the garbage as possible. I want the kind of game that would be like The Lord of the Rings or Wheel of Time for Video Games. Something that is truly a masterpiece of the artform of the RPG. Maybe something based in Anima: Beyond Fantasy or like that?