Who put all these elves in my hobbits?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/110462-Peter-Jackson-Writes-Legolas-Into-The-Hobbit

So Jackson writing Legolas into the Hobbit. Fanboys explode. Classic trolling.

[Krylo]

I'm disappointed that this thread isn't about LotR parody pornography.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I would approve of that direction. Given the prepoderence of male characters in the series I should warn you that it will be an anal bonanza.

[MFD]

Well, I mean, they do meet the Mirkwood Elves. It's not an insane thing to have a cameo appearance by an insanely popular Mirkwood Elf character.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Yeah lots of dudes int he comments are like" But but but, he was son of the king of the mirkwood elves and the son of hte kings are mentioned just not by name, I know this because I read every page of the appendix then made big wallcharts of the family" which is stupid cause in LoTR he is kicking it in Rivendale with Bilbo who has got to be this massive criminal to the Mirkwood elves but he doesn't even bring it up or anything.
Bilbo fucked all their shit up hardout.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I'm pretty sure all of that was settled after the Battle of the Five Armies though, so there's no reason why Bilbo would have been considered a criminal.

[Lumenskir]

Yeah lots of dudes int he comments are like" But but but, he was son of the king of the mirkwood elves and the son of hte kings are mentioned just not by name, I know this because I read every page of the appendix then made big wallcharts of the family" which is stupid cause in LoTR he is kicking it in Rivendale with Bilbo who has got to be this massive criminal to the Mirkwood elves but he doesn't even bring it up or anything.
Bilbo fucked all their shit up hardout.
The best part about comments like that is that I can read them in Conan's "enraged nerd" voice and crack myself up.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It was totally much better when Jackson was doing it for the shits. I would totally put King Kong roaming around Mirkwood and the ring was actually made by the aliens from Bad Taste.

[Marc v4.0]

Yeah lots of dudes int he comments are like" But but but, he was son of the king of the mirkwood elves and the son of hte kings are mentioned just not by name, I know this because I read every page of the appendix then made big wallcharts of the family" which is stupid cause in LoTR he is kicking it in Rivendale with Bilbo who has got to be this massive criminal to the Mirkwood elves but he doesn't even bring it up or anything.
Bilbo fucked all their shit up hardout.

None of this is unture, though. Don't really see the problem.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The problem is that its stupid.
It's reminisicient of Final Fantasy 8 in the whole, I've know you guys for years and years but I just couldn't be bothered mentioning it at any point.

[Marc v4.0]

No?

Just mostly uninteresting

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Yeah it's not like Legolas and Bilbo actually made friends or anything during the whole Mirkwood shenanigans, or even during the Battle later on. They met, breifly and then 60 years later Legolas meets his nephew. He doesn't bring it up in LotRs because there's nothing to say, he never knew the guy really.

Same deal with Gloin and Gimli, 60 years earlier a dwarf gets imprisoned for trespassing through Mirkwood, then later he meets his son and they become friends. Again he doesn't bring it up because, there's no point. I mean he's immortal anyway, I'm sure he meets a lot of people and their ancestors/descendants, he doesn't need to mention it every damn time.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Elves seem like massive grudge holding cunts though.
If anyone is going to remember that time 60 years ago when you broke all their mortal enemies out of your prison, it's going to be some elves.
And like the prince elf is going to be extra up himself and have nothing better to do than to hold petty grudges all day.

[Si Civa]

I don't know, Legolas and Gimli came friends in the end and there was that grudge between dwarfs and elves. He was little bit better than most of the elves so I guess it could be argued that he can forgive things little bit easier than most of his kind.

But I doubt he will be just a cameo which is a problem. And I guess the discussion there kinda give me vibes that there will be much and much battle scenes and I certainly hope that's not the case. But then again those people who discuss in that page claim that Elrond was older than Gandalf.

But in the end of the day I'm not going to see this movie, probably.

[Kerensky287]

I'm gonna see it.

I just never read the original one (too boring) so all of your complaints mean nothing to me.

If'n you ask me, Peter Jackson should just take the book, cut the plotline into tiny pieces, and then change any important details that would make it boring into details that would make it awesome.

Sauron should've been a member of Bilbo's party, for example.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Gandalf is revealed to be Sauron in disguise!
He pulling a palpatine

[Kerensky287]

Gandalf is revealed to be Sauron in disguise!
He pulling a palpatine

Think about it. Have you ever seen Gandalf and Sauron in the same room together?

Didn't think so.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Gandalf seems to know an awful lot about the one-ring.

[Aerozord]

The Hobbit was good, just slow. It was all about plot and clever solutions then big actiony battles. I cant see it doing well at the box office unless pointless fights are tossed in, which of course would be perfect thing for some elf to come in and do something awesome*

*there is abit of sarcasm there, it would be perfect excuse to use him, but I will be sad when I see all the extra fights tossed in there

The problem is that its stupid.
It's reminisicient of Final Fantasy 8 in the whole, I've know you guys for years and years but I just couldn't be bothered mentioning it at any point.

wasn't that because of the whole memory raping gods thing?

[rpgdemon]

The Hobbit was good, just slow. It was all about plot and clever solutions then big actiony battles. I cant see it doing well at the box office unless pointless fights are tossed in, which of course would be perfect thing for some elf to come in and do something awesome

Well, there was the whole fight that lead to Bilbo hitting his head and finding/being found by Gollum.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

wasn't that because of the whole memory raping gods thing?

While the others forgot Irvine remembered their entire childhood though. And never mentioned it! Then when everyone got their memory back he's like "OH shit. You didn't know?".

Also Gandalf leaves teh fellowship all the time. If I was protecting the most important quest in the fate of the world I wouldn't leave to go do trivial wizard shit. If I had to go prepare my armies of doom, however, that's another story.

[Si Civa]

And Gandalf was too proud just merely trick hobbits to give him it or just steal it himself. Or was ring just some kind of wicked plot to free him from it's curse, hmm. You never can trust wizards.

[Kerensky287]

Gandalf left the ring with the hobbits so that it could suck out their secret hobbit-magic without them knowing.

He was leaving it with them simply so he could become more and more powerful.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

So what we're saying here is, the entirely of LotRs, literally every event in the series, was orchestrated by 2 chessmasters... both of whom are Gandalf?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I just think he was really really bored. Not a lot to do in Mordor.

Alternatively Sauron was barred from the earthly paradise of Valinor. However a hero who defeated the great evil Sauron, of course he will be allowed into Valinor.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

So he's Tzeentch then?

[Bells]

So he's Tzeentch then?

Actually, after reading this thread i think they are saying that Gandalf is Aizen apparently...

Here is MY quibble though.

If they had Giant Birds that only show up in the end of the movies, why they didn't use it to FLY to mordor instead of putting tens of thousands of people to battle?

[Kim]

Because Mordor had flying dragons monsters piloted by undead wraiths.

[Melfice]

I don't know, Legolas and Gimli came friends in the end and there was that grudge between dwarfs and elves.

A friendly rivalry still isn't friendship, although I may have forgotten bits and pieces. Also, I'm totally going off the films.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Actually, after reading this thread i think they are saying that Gandalf is Aizen apparently...

Here is MY quibble though.

If they had Giant Birds that only show up in the end of the movies, why they didn't use it to FLY to mordor instead of putting tens of thousands of people to battle?

This is pretty explicitily discussed int he books- eagles are very proud creatures, proud beings will succumb to the ring.
And if you are referring to the final battle of aragorn and stuff at the gates, a few random birds can't really replace an army.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

This is pretty explicitily discussed int he books- eagles are very proud creatures, proud beings will succumb to the ring.
And if you are referring to the final battle of aragorn and stuff at the gates, a few random birds can't really replace an army.

Solution: don't tell the eagles about the ring?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It magically reaches out to people and seduces them. That is a major recurring point of the books and films. Come on now.

[Aerozord]

In a way Saron was just as much of a slave to the ring as others. When they talked about leaving it with Tom Bombabil (I dont care enough to check spelling) they said he'd raze all of Middle Earth and still eventually claim it. In other words he didn't even need the thing to conquer the world, but still he would do anything to get it.

[Si Civa]

A friendly rivalry still isn't friendship, although I may have forgotten bits and pieces. Also, I'm totally going off the films.

There was that epilogue about them traveling everywhere in the Middle-earth and finally sailing to Blessed Realm.

Which can totally be about friendly rivalry though!

[The Sevenshot Kid]

It magically reaches out to people and seduces them. That is a major recurring point of the books and films. Come on now.

Plenty of people resisted that shit. And birds are stupid. They're not even smart enough to be seduced by power.

[Kim]

Plenty of people resisted that shit. And birds are stupid. They're not even smart enough to be seduced by power.

Now you're just arguing dishonestly.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Now you're just arguing dishonestly.

Objection!

Why does everyone assume that the eagles would have time to be seduce by the ring? It takes a while for it to happen. So isn't it likely that they could safely fly the fellowship to the volcano without going apeshit?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You are missing the entire point of the books. It is expressely stated that Frodo could have used the ring to teleport directly to Mount Doom. But he would have been seduced by doing so.
They could have given it to anyone, they specifically gave it to the weakest and most humble dude they coudl find cause he was the only one who could do it without being seduced. That is the entire fucking point of the trilogy.
The onyl people who resist it are shitty hobbits, who even then have to struggle, and SecretSauron.
Also Tom, the motherfucker, Bombadil.

[Viridis]

Objection!

Why does everyone assume that the eagles would have time to be seduce by the ring? It takes a while for it to happen. So isn't it likely that they could safely fly the fellowship to the volcano without going apeshit?Didn't it get to Gollum very quickly? I think he saw it then strangled the guy who had it when he wouldn't give it over.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Got to Boromir pretty quickly, got to Cate Blanchett really quickly, got to the big hero who first cut off Sauron finger in like 5 minutes.
The more proud and powerful you are are, the quicker it gets you.
So you want to balance out power not to get killed on the jounrey and speed on the way versus quickness of seduction. I bet you SecretSauron did some awesome calculus to figure out the optimal ringbearer.

[Kerensky287]

Here's what you do.

You give it to some hobbit or something.

You put him on a boat headed into the ocean somewhere. Blessed Realm maybe.

You get on a different boat, saying you'll be going with him.

Then, right in the middle of the ocean?

YOU SINK HIM AND HIS GODDAMN RING. Problem solved. No one will ever find it again.

[Aerozord]

Hobbits have a very high resistance to temptations such as the ring. Remember how Gandalf felt he'd give in if it was simply offered to him, while Bilbo even after decades and alot of use could give it up. Still closer it was to its birth place the stronger its power. Truth is if the rest of the fellowship was with Frodo the whole way its safe bet they would have turned on him along the way

edit
Here's what you do.

You give it to some hobbit or something.

You put him on a boat headed into the ocean somewhere. Blessed Realm maybe.

You get on a different boat, saying you'll be going with him.

Then, right in the middle of the ocean?

YOU SINK HIM AND HIS GODDAMN RING. Problem solved. No one will ever find it again.

they were considering that idea, but Saron was effectively immortal and the Ring caused fate to conspire so it would be found. Him getting it would be an eventuality

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well yeah, he did expressely ditch them after Boromir tried to take the ring for tht reason.

And surely sauron could fish it up from the ocean. Pretty shitty grand warlord if he can't.

[BloodyMage]

Didn't it already end up in a river once and then Gollum ended up with it?

[RobinStarwing]

Ugh...reading this and mentions of Gandalf being Sauron and stuff...ugh. >_< Let's set the record straight shall we? Could someone versed in the Lord Of The Rings lore (book and movie and the differences between the two) please stand up and explain this? I could but I'd have to spend the entire night going through the internet to find the stuff.

Also, to somewhat on topic...

http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/halflings.jpg

(Would like to be repped for that pic if it's cool enough)

[Kim]

Hell, SecretSauron wouldn't even touch the ring cuz he knew it'd seduce him if he did.

[Bells]

So i guess we can agree that the One Ring is the perfect McGuffin by design

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Ugh...reading this and mentions of Gandalf being Sauron and stuff...ugh. >_< Let's set the record straight shall we? Could someone versed in the Lord Of The Rings lore (book and movie and the differences between the two) please stand up and explain this? I could but I'd have to spend the entire night going through the internet to find the stuff.



Before I was a scientist I was a literary theorist and have seen the original LOTR manuscripts. I can confirm that every instance of "Gandalf" in the final text was original written "Sauronteeheheheheeee Gandalf"

[RobinStarwing]

Before I was a scientist I was a literary theorist and have seen the original LOTR manuscripts. I can confirm that every instance of "Gandalf" in the final text was original written "Sauronteeheheheheeee Gandalf"

There is a huge difference between the original manuscripts the author uses to start working on an idea and the finished product. What was originally intended could be thrown out because it makes no sense to the overall story.

Than there is the characters writing the story or the story writing the characters. This can affect what becomes the finished product in literature.

So you may have read the original manuscripts for the LOTR and happen to have been a Literary Theorist but I write and understand the mind of a writer. I just don't publish because I've got nothing worth publishing yet anywhere (even at FF.net).

[rpgdemon]

He's not serious.

It's a joke.

IT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO ME CONCLUSIVELY.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

There is a huge difference between the original manuscripts the author uses to start working on an idea and the finished product. What was originally intended could be thrown out because it makes no sense to the overall story.

Than there is the characters writing the story or the story writing the characters. This can affect what becomes the finished product in literature.

So you may have read the original manuscripts for the LOTR and happen to have been a Literary Theorist but I write and understand the mind of a writer. I just don't publish because I've got nothing worth publishing yet anywhere (even at FF.net).

I... He's trolling, right?

Edit: God damnit, rpgdemon!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I am not only a published scholar, I am also a gentleman. I would not lie.
And even if you were not to trust the word of such a valiant young man as myself, simply apply Occam's razor- in which way does the story make more sense?
Either SecretSauron is employing a grand game of puppetry and trickery explaining his seemingly prescient knowledge, his ability to always know where everyone is and his ability to survive death itself or he is somehow he is this super powerful wizard who is trying to protect the world but also constantly endangers the future of the world cause he wants to go play with some eagles for a bit and go raise armies for no apparent reason. Why so much sensless destruction Gandalf, unless you are, in fact, Secret Sauron.

[Bells]

I present evidence at 00:29 that Gandalf is trying his best to ride the party in the best direction. Would Sauron do that? I THINK NOT! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkNWF_75dWM)

[RobinStarwing]

My head is going to explode...X_X

If I remember right, wasn't it explained Gandalf is some sort of entity that gets reborn every so often?

[Nikose Tyris]

Gollum: Secretly the mightiest Hobbit.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

My head is going to explode...X_X

If I remember right, wasn't it explained Gandalf is some sort of entity that gets reborn every so often?

Yes, he's a Maiar spirit, a demigod, same as Sauron.

[RobinStarwing]

Yes, he's a Maiar spirit, a demigod, same as Sauron.

That was never explained in the movies though. I remember it because I came across it when looking into Balrog and it's connections to the Balor.

But anyways, to help get back on topic...I've got no issues if canon says Legolas was a Mirkwood Elf and his father was one of the rulers if he ends up in the Hobbit movie.

[Kerensky287]

Yes, he's a Maiar spirit, a demigod, same as Sauron.

Coincidence?

I THINK NOT

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

By that logic though, Tom Bombadil is also highly suspect, since he's Maiar too.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

By that logic though, Tom Bombadil is also highly suspect, since he's Maiar too.

He and Gandalf are clearly running a racket on all of Middle Earth together.

[Aerozord]

Yes, he's a Maiar spirit, a demigod, same as Sauron.

thats what they were called? I do remember that despite what most people think wizards are not humans, but a completely different race

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Yeah, there's a fair load of demigods beings running around. There are 15 Valar, the true gods of the world (not including Melkor, the original evil god) and then a ton of Mair spirits, which include the wizards, Sauron, Bombadil, the River Daughter, the Balrogs, Ungoliant the first spider (I think, can't remember now) and a load of others who we mostly never hear about.

Also Elrond and Arwen have some Maiar blood as well, to go with their human and Elven side.

[Seil]

Wait, didn't Gandalf die in the first movie?

Gives new meaning to the phrase "A wizard did it."

[The Sevenshot Kid]

All of these conversations are making me think that it's not a Hobbit movie we need. We need The Silmarillion or some of those stories to be adapted. Shit man, the saga of Feanor and his sons would be fucking awesome to see on the screen. Almost any of those stories would work well.

Edit: And Turin's story would be pretty awesome. The scale of these stories doesn't have to be too big and epic. I would gladly settle for a more personal and complex tale.

[Magus]

thats what they were called? I do remember that despite what most people think wizards are not humans, but a completely different race

I think if I remember correctly they had to give up some of their power to take on human form like Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast did, though, so they're kind of stuck in a quasi-human state where they can be killed and have way less power. That's why Gandalf can't just go and fight Sauron hand-to-hand despite them both originally being Maiar, Gandalf has now got one hand tied behind his back and a limp, basically.

As for why they don't just fly on eagles to Mount Doom, eagles are apparently fairly elusive creatures, like you don't just know where they're at, plus they have to secretly do stuff to avoid the ring getting back to Sauron, so maybe a daredevil run for Amon Amarth from Rivendell on eagle-back is out of the question 'cause potentially the Witch-King and his duddies could catch you somewhere around Dunland on pterodactyl-back and blow you all out of the sky with fireballs or whatever.

As for why they can't just dump the ring in the ocean, as someone pointed out Sauron is effectively immortal as he is, he can't ever be destroyed unless you get rid of the ring. It's a bit like the Horcruxes in those Harry Potter books, Sauron's spirit is attached to the ring and that is what is keeping him attached to the mortal plane instead of being tossed out with Morgoth or whatever. If he gets the ring his victory will just be swifter than otherwise because he'll have his physical form back, the only way to win is to destroy it.

Anyway, these movies are kind of pointless in the end if you take the story as a whole since if you read the Silmarillion and all the background information you know that 1. all the crap before the events of The Hobbit and LOTR are way more epic and amazing than the events recounted therein, 2. they face an even greater foe named Morgoth who is like Sauron on steroids, so Sauron is actually kind of lame in comparison, and 3. eventually even after the super epic world-rocking War of the Ring there's supposed to be another Ragnarok-like event where Morgoth finally escapes from the outer dimension, revives Sauron, and there is one final epic battle with a bunch of revived elf-types and Turin or whatever is also revived (not sure who's doing all this reviving, maybe the other Valar in response to Morgoth reviving his servants, but anyway) and finally ends everything by stabbing Morgoth in the mouth with the black sword.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

By that logic though, Tom Bombadil is also highly suspect, since he's Maiar too.

No he isn't. It's never expressely stated what Tom is but he defineatly not Maia who are all named at same point. He appears to be the spirit of the earth or some such, possibly the big high god or some such.
Mostly he just a motherfucker though.
Also doesn't covet the ring.
Possibly the only character who isn't Sauron.

[Shyria Dracnoir]

I think its obvious why you don't try to ride the eagles into Mordor; they are very, very big predators and most of your party mates are...not so big. Suppose your ally mistakes the ringbearer for a vole, gulps him down, and gets the ultimate artifact of doom lodged square in his craw?

[Dracorion]

No, see, they're smart talking eagles.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The witchking will fly up and whisper in their ears secret hobbit recipes.

[Seil]

Has anyone mentioned that Gandalf died and was... like... "reborn?" Or Saruman? What was Saruman doing the whole trilogy? Making black powder?

[mauve]

Look, guys, all that matters is that I'm pretty sure Beorn is going to be in the movie. BEORN. The freaking BEAR MAN who CHANGES INTO A BEAR. AND KILLS THINGS.

AS A BEAR.

A BEAR.

What was Saruman doing the whole trilogy? Getting himself written out of a kickass "Taking Over Hobbiton and Eventually Getting Shot To Death By a Mob of Angry Hobbit-Rebels" scene, if I remember correctly.

He could have had THAT, but instead he ends getting surrounded by annoyed tree-people and is left to an ambiguous stranded-in-a-tower doom.

Poor dude.

[RickZarber]

Tom Bombadil doesn't hold a candle to Tinfang Warble.

There, I said it.

He could have had THAT, but instead he ends getting surrounded by annoyed tree-people and is left to an ambiguous stranded-in-a-tower doom.
*coug*extendededition*cough*

[Professor Smarmiarty]

SecretSauron faked his own death. Balrogs were servants of Morgoth and thus now work for Sauron.It allowed him to get away from the hobbits for a while and spy on the Saruman. I mean isn't it awfully conveinient that the Balrog didn't attack all those orcs running around the mountain? Or that the Balrog and SecretSauron killed each other with the same blow?
What Saruman i up to? Pretty much what's in the book. Building an army, murdering short people.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

SecretSauron faked his own death. Balrogs were servants of Morgoth and thus now work for Sauron.It allowed him to get away from the hobbits for a while and spy on the Saruman. I mean isn't it awfully conveinient that the Balrog didn't attack all those orcs running around the mountain? Or that the Balrog and SecretSauron killed each other with the same blow?
What Saruman i up to? Pretty much what's in the book. Building an army, murdering short people.

Wife must have left him for a little person.

Edit: What is the status on interbreeding in this universe? Can elves, hobbits, humans, and dwarves all stir the genetic pot together?

[RickZarber]

Elves and Humans, definitely. X and Hobbits, no evidence (though it was said that once upon a time, one of the Tooks msut have taken a fairy [elf] for a wife, but this was, of course, "ridiculous").

Dwarves, no.

Nobody likes Dwarves "like that".

[Melfice]

Look, guys, all that matters is that I'm pretty sure Beorn is going to be in the movie. BEORN. The freaking BEAR MAN who CHANGES INTO A BEAR. AND KILLS THINGS.

AS A BEAR.

A BEAR.

Seriously?
Tolkien named the guy who can change into a bear "Beorn"?

Admittedly, I'm not that big of a Tolkien nut, but I thought he was more creative than that. =/

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Orcs and humans get it on.

[synkr0nized]

ITT like two of you have actually read the books or perhaps even paid attention enough during the movies.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It's the only thing my country has ever produced. They teach it in history class.

[Amake]

But what would happen if an anthrax or other powerful bacterium touched the inside of the ring? I'm thinking it would turn into a bacteria-sized ringwraith-like incarnation of Sauron, invisible to the naked eye, basically immortal and extruding an aura of foulness and disease. So basically like regular bacteria. Except with spikey plate armor.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

No he isn't. It's never expressely stated what Tom is but he defineatly not Maia who are all named at same point. He appears to be the spirit of the earth or some such, possibly the big high god or some such.
Mostly he just a motherfucker though.
Also doesn't covet the ring.
Possibly the only character who isn't Sauron.

Yes, he is a Maiar. What do you suppose a "spirit of the earth" would be if not a Maiar? He's not one of the Valar, because they're all accounted for and and none of them live in Middle Earth. Orome and Yavanna are probably the only 2 who ever occasionally wander the world, and neither of them are Bombadil. Gandalf even described him as the oldest of the old, which implies he's a Maiar. He even shares some of the same powers as another Maiar, that one who married one of the first elven kings (can't find my copy of Silmarillion now though so I can't remember her name), what with the whole protection of the forest deal and knowing instantly when someone enters his domain thing that she had.

Further, he lives with Goldberry, the River Daughter, implied to be a litteral daughter of Ulmo, god of the seas. I find the idea of 2 Maiar living together more likely than 1 Maiar and one... strange immortal dude who apparantly has no origin and is totally NOT a Maiar just because it never implicitly states so in the book.

Also it outright states he is in the Tolkien encyclopedia, which I would presume knows what it's talking about and has verified sources to go along with it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

From WIki:
Tom Bombadil's origins in the cosmology of Middle-earth were left vague by Tolkien. He calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn", and "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside." He does not neatly fit into the categories of beings Tolkien created. Speculative ideas about his true nature range from one of the Ainur, angelic beings (who came after the dark lord and shaped the earth), to God, who is called Eru Ilúvatar and "the One" in Tolkien's legendarium. This is reinforced when Frodo asks Goldberry just who Tom Bombadil is, and she responds by simply saying "He is" (much like the biblical statement about Yahweh, "I Am that I Am").[2]

At the Council of Elrond, Galdor suggests that Bombadil would be unable to withstand a siege by Sauron "unless such power is in the earth itself", implying that the character may be a manifestation of Middle-earth's inherent properties. This connection explains Bombadil's seeming obliviousness to the transient concerns of mortals, as evidenced in Gandalf's concern that Tom would not understand the importance of the Ring and would lose it if entrusted with it. The idea that Tom's songs are always "stronger", as he proclaims in his rhyme, as well as his title of Master, further suggest Bombadil is the warden or avatar of the nearly invincible aspects of the planet itself.[original research?]

In reference to Bombadil, Tolkien himself said that some things should remain mysterious in any narrative, hidden even to its inventor.


Also there is fairly extensive lists of the Maiar who come to Earth, Tom ain't mentioned at all.
And he's not affected by the Ring and doesn't give a shit. All other Maia we see are affected by the power of the Ring despite them all being super powerful. Also all other Maia want to stop Sauron, that why they came to the Earth and left pleasureisland. Tom doesn't give a shit.

Also he knows he is in a book! That's not a Maiar power.

[Marc v4.0]

Tom is a being that has the technical description of "Badass" and that is all we ever need to know.

[Melfice]

Tom is a being that has the technical description of "Badass" overpowered and that is all we ever need to know.

Fixed. Also, needs a nerf.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You just think that cause you don't know how to counter him you stupid noob. His strength actually varies with the health of the battlefield you fight on. If you use Frieza's planet buster while he is singing he will lose all power.

[BloodyMage]

He calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master"

so....

http://welltuncares.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/master-small.jpg

Just another incarnation then?

[RickZarber]

Seriously?
Tolkien named the guy who can change into a bear "Beorn"?

Admittedly, I'm not that big of a Tolkien nut, but I thought he was more creative than that. =/Well, it's important to keep in mind that Tolkien was writing the Hobbit for his kids, and only included a shape-shifting Bear/Man in there because they were totally obsessed with bears at the time and insisted on them being in the story (and, in fact, most of his children's stories include bears). So it makes a certain amount sense that the name would be simplistic.

Interestingly enough though, in the original manuscript for the Hobbit, Beorn is called Medwed.

[Melfice]

Yes, but the real kicker is, Beorn is the Old English form of the Scandinavian name Björn or Bjørn.

Which means... you guessed it, "bear".

[Marc v4.0]

Yes, but the real kicker is, Beorn is the Old English form of the Scandinavian name Björn or Bjørn.

Which means... you guessed it, "bear".

A neverending cycle of BEARS

[Shyria Dracnoir]

No, see, they're smart talking eagles.

Yes, but still eagles. The Hobbit mentions that the group Bilbo and Co. meet can't just fly them into Rivertown because the eagles have a bad habit of jacking the farmer's livestock and that the farmers would shoot the crap out of them if they got close. Even if they can speak, they're still very much like animals in their instincts and behavior.

There's also the pride thing mentioned as well; they can't bring themselves to care about the other races unless it's under very special circumstances. For the main trilogy, you're asking these things to run what could possibly be a suicide run into the heart of ultimate evil infested with orcs, giant bat things, and A FREAKING ACTIVE VOLCANO, all with the possibility that the guy you're carrying could suddenly give in to the artifact he's trying to destroy and stab you in the back. Personally, I think the eagles would be quite sensible in saying no.

[Aerozord]

Bombadil was never a fully formed idea to start with. Tolkien himself said he couldn't explain what his purpose was in the story, only that he felt something would be missing with his removal otherwise he wouldn't have been left in.

I'm betting he was just an idea he wanted to use so he tossed him in without much regard to his nature in the grand mythos

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Yes, but still eagles. The Hobbit mentions that the group Bilbo and Co. meet can't just fly them into Rivertown because the eagles have a bad habit of jacking the farmer's livestock and that the farmers would shoot the crap out of them if they got close. Even if they can speak, they're still very much like animals in their instincts and behavior.

There's also the pride thing mentioned as well; they can't bring themselves to care about the other races unless it's under very special circumstances. For the main trilogy, you're asking these things to run what could possibly be a suicide run into the heart of ultimate evil infested with orcs, giant bat things, and A FREAKING ACTIVE VOLCANO, all with the possibility that the guy you're carrying could suddenly give in to the artifact he's trying to destroy and stab you in the back. Personally, I think the eagles would be quite sensible in saying no.

Or their pride could influence things so that they decide to take part in this suicide run for all of the glory it would bring.

[Bells]

Nah... eagles are dicks.

My memory from the books (and movies) is a little rusty though, but there is one thing i was thinking about. What is the extent of Magic in Middle Earth?

Sauron was able to forge a bunch of Hyper Magical rings, alright. That Elven chick whatshername summoned a horse-shapped tidal wavel, and Gandalf shined some lights around...

Also, if Gandalf is Sauron, why did he let Saruman capture and beat the crap out of him, if Saruman was serving Sauron?!

[Marc v4.0]

Or their pride could influence things so that they decide to take part in this suicide run for all of the glory it would bring.

At least a suicide run into Mt. Doom would provide the Orc Armies with a hell of a lot of roast bird to feast on.

[Aerozord]

he's a disembodied fiery eyeball, what else is there to do besides that and plot out the conquest of the known world

[Marc v4.0]

he's a disembodied fiery eyeball, what else is there to do besides that and plot out the conquest of the known world

toga party

[Aerozord]

toga party

disembodied remember

[The Sevenshot Kid]

disembodied remember

Unless he has the orcs sow him up a giant toga for his tower.

[Marc v4.0]

disembodied remember

Eventually he would be strong enough to take on physical form, and that is worth a ripping Toga Party.

[Shyria Dracnoir]

Nah... eagles are dicks.

My memory from the books (and movies) is a little rusty though, but there is one thing i was thinking about. What is the extent of Magic in Middle Earth?

Sauron was able to forge a bunch of Hyper Magical rings, alright. That Elven chick whatshername summoned a horse-shapped tidal wavel, and Gandalf shined some lights around...

Not as far as in the majority of its derivatives. As stated before, wizards here are a completely different class of beings from man; elves get some tricks because of their nature, but even then its usually the ringbearers and other really old individuals (the wave trick was actually one of Elrond's in the books). Magic among men is usually limited to people of certain descent; Aragon gets special abilities because of his lineage as the king of Gondor, and his Numenorean ancestors (basically Middle-Earth's version of Atlantis).

There's an overall feeling of magic slowly decaying over time; where the planet used to be lit by a giant glowing tree and magic lighthouses, we have a physical sun and moon later. The planet goes from being flat to round around the time the Numenorean civilization gets wiped out. The Third Age sees the last of the Elves and the Rings of Power retreating to the West or elsewhere. It's noted that Tolkien thought of the world of Middle-Earth as a sort of mythical past for our own planet, and the retreat of these more mystical elements sort of supports it.

[rpgdemon]

It's noted that Tolkien thought of the world of Middle-Earth as a sort of mythical past for our own planet, and the retreat of these more mystical elements sort of supports it.

Yeah, I have a friend who's really into the Lord of the Rings supplementary stuff, and he was telling me about how eventually the stuff leads into our world, and WWII actually happens sometime in the ninth age, or something?

Bombadil was never a fully formed idea to start with. Tolkien himself said he couldn't explain what his purpose was in the story, only that he felt something would be missing with his removal otherwise he wouldn't have been left in.

I'm betting he was just an idea he wanted to use so he tossed him in without much regard to his nature in the grand mythos

Didn't Bombadil come from a short story he wrote, originally, with no ties to the Lord of the Rings? I honestly don't remember where I heard this, but I thought I did, somewhere. Also, I feel like if he was taken out, the entire book would feel far too tense and as if there was no way the Hobbits could have survived far enough to hit Elrond.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Also Tom's bit is the only good bit in the trilogy.

[RickZarber]

Yes, but the real kicker is, Beorn is the Old English form of the Scandinavian name Björn or Bjørn.

Which means... you guessed it, "bear".Well, duh. :P I'm just saying it makes a certain amount of simplistic sense, seeing as, in fact, the real kicker is that in OE, "Beorn" as a surename was taken to mean: "a warrior, a hero, a man of valour" (also, poetic "man").
Didn't Bombadil come from a short story he wrote, originally, with no ties to the Lord of the Rings?
This is correct. Bombadil predates LotR, and first appeared in a poem published in the Oxford Magazine in 1933. (So he actually predates The Hobbit, too.)

About Tom Bombadil's nature, esp re: the reference to Tom:God, in Tolkien's own words, from a letter written in 1954 (Letters of JRR Tolkien No. 153):
Frodo has not asked 'what is Tom Bombadil' but 'Who is he'. We and he no doubt often laxly confuse the questions. Goldberry gives what I think is the correct answer. We need not go into the sublimities of 'I am that I am' -- which is quite different from he is. She adds as a concession a statement of part of the 'what'. He is master in a peculiar way: he has no fear, and no desire of possession or domination at all. He merely knows and understands about such things as concern him in his natural little realm. [...] I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already 'invented' him independently and wanted an 'adventure' on the way. But I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out. [...] [He is] an expampler, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge. Even the Elves hardly show this: they are primarily artists.

[RobinStarwing]

I think I will just drop out of this discussion before my brain implodes.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I refuse to believe that Bombadil is Eru Illuvatar. No fucking way!

[Seil]

http://amazingdata.com/mediadata20/Image/interesting_nifty_funny_amazing_scanners-exploding-head-3200907241543414499.jpg

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I refuse to believe that Bombadil is Eru Illuvatar. No fucking way!

Santa Claus is also the Easter Bunny. Think about it. It makes sense.