Ultimate Spider Man: Peter Parker is dead, long live Spider-Man

[Nique]

I know we've got a Spider-Man thread going but that's about out of steam and was more about the upcoming film until Fifth brought this (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1145478&postcount=76) up. I figured we could have a discussion proper about Marvel's 'Ultimate' universe death of Peter Parker and introduction of a new Spider-Man in Miles Morales - a half-Black half-Latino kid who, also has Spider-Powers, I guess?

On one hand, I kind of understand if some people are hesitant to accept a change like this becuase in order to really enjoy comics from the big two these days you are basically ok with the state of their continuity. This means a constant return to the status quo i.e. superhero dead = not really dead. I guess I can also see a slightly more rational argument about it not really being Spider-Man unless it's Peter Parker or something too, so I don't know if it's entirely fair to label everyone who has a problem with it as a racisms (although a lot of people are being hella racisms about this).

As far as complaints that the race of the character is motivated solely by some kind of affirmative action based quota filling... I mean, it seems like comics have gotten by for quite a long time having primarily white characters and quota filling by transforming third tier characters into ethnic stereotypes. Add to this that Peter Parker as Spider-Man is probably the most popular comic book character of all time means killing him off and replacing him with anyone else is going to be a controversial move anyway, so that doesn't seem to be a likely motive.

Black Nerd Comedy has a perspective on this also. (http://www.youtube.com/user/BlackNerdComedy#p/u/0/UUziaJzmnO4)

[Amake]

I've always liked Ultimate Spider-man. Not Brian Bendis' best work, but probably the best indefinitely ongoing comic I've seen. Which is largely due to Bendis bending the ongoing format as far as anyone's ever dared. USM never settled in a definite status quo in the ten or so years before Peter Parker's death and replacement, and that move in particular gives me hope it never will.

If they bring him back I'm out, though.

[Kim]

This isn't the first time there's been a non-Parker Spiderman. It's just the first time someone's taken over the role for a dead Parker. As for the whole continuity excuse a lot of idiots like to hide behind, there've been like three Green Lanterns, two Batmans, three Robins, thre Flashes, a couple Batwomen, and those are just the ones I, a guy who does not read comics except for special exceptions, knows about. A superhero having their role filled by another character is nothing new at all to comics, and people need to stop acting like this change is an excuse for their terrible behavior.

BEYOND THAT there is still a comic book series with Parker as Spiderman that will continue to be published even as Ultimate Spiderman is, so it's not even like they've lost Parker either.

With all this in mind, it's REALLY REALLY HARD to not think, "Hmmm, maybe the folks complaining are just racist."

[Viridis]

I like the idea of the character, but I'm just wondering if he has the same powers and, if so, how. Any word on that yet?

[Nique]

thre Flashes

Actually the Flash is a perfect example of why this should basically be fine. A mainstay character being replaced by a new character or sidekick like, multiple times?

With all this in mind, it's REALLY REALLY HARD to not think, "Hmmm, maybe the folks complaining are just racist.

I prefer to think that the majority of them are manifesting their ignorance - either about social issues or good taste in the realm of comic book writing. The biggest tell is the people who say something along the lines of 'It's just a comic book, why do they need to affirmative action it all up and RUIN IT FOREVER'. Like it either matters or it doesn't you cannot have it both ways.

[Sky Warrior Bob]

I don't follow comics, but how did he gain his powers? Also, how soon after Peter's death was this other Spider Man already in webs?

SWB

[Premmy]

I totally tweeted in support of Donald Glover's run for Peter Parker in the movie. So I feel responsible for this and someone should thank me for it.

[Nique]

I also Said Lil Wayne was the Green Goblin,
Duh.

[Magus]

Hmm, intriguing. Who's Little Wayne and why does he make a good Green Goblin?

I think I already pointed out in the other thread that most of these random people on the internets are probably continuity nerds. It is your Glenn Becks who are the real racists because they complained about Nightrunner, a completely original new character.

[Nique]

I think I already pointed out in the other thread that most of these random people on the internets are probably continuity nerds.

I would agree with this - Comic fans lean towards more liberal viewpoints like most nerdlings and are not exclusively white either. But then the discussion becomes that they are backing a bloated unchanging continuity for flimsy reasons which ultimately amount to the fact that they don't like change.

Nick Fury is black in the Ultimate universe, which means there is no relation to his 616 counterpart except by name and role. It isn't 'mirror universe' star trek episodes here so Spider-Man could just as easily been a totally different character in the Ultimate universe to begin with.

[Magus]

I would agree with this - Comic fans lean towards more liberal viewpoints like most nerdlings and are not exclusively white either. But then the discussion becomes that they are backing a bloated unchanging continuity for flimsy reasons which ultimately amount to the fact that they don't like change.


Yeah, exactly. That's what continuity nerds do.

I on the other hand thought stuff like Flashpoint with Wonder Woman and the Amazons invading London and Batman being Thomas Wayne who lost his son and wife in Crime Alley should probably just be the standard continuity for about 30 years because it was awesome, and most importantly, new.

[Fifthfiend]

Comic fans lean towards more liberal viewpoints like most nerdlings

uh

[Kim]

How is having a new Spiderman replace an old one, which is a thing that happens in comics all the time and has been accepted as a thing that has happened even with Spidey before, a violation of continuity, especially when the entire Ultimate Spidey series has been taking place in a different Marvel universe from word go anyways?

[Nique]

uh

Well, maybe I'm more in that outer rim of geek culture in where we have, like, a modicum of good taste and common sense. Anyway, as I understand it, Comic books have often featured more progressive messages if they have a message at all, though it's often buried in political correctness. See: every comic book character's war on drugs special issue crossover extravaganza.

How is having a new Spiderman replace an old one, which is a thing that happens in comics all the time and has been accepted as a thing that has happened even with Spidey before, a violation of continuity

It's not whereas interrupting the major hard-on for Peter Parker as every comic fan's Mary Sue might as well be.

EDIT: Not that I don't like Peter Parker! I mean, you are dealing with what was one of if not the most groundbreaking character of his era, and one of the most entertaining characters in the Ultimate universe, so it's understandable that people will miss him, but there is a kind of mass double-standard happening... I mean, Batman is just as iconic and as stupid as his recent death or time travel or whatever was, no one threw a fit like this.

[Fifthfiend]

War on drugs crossovers aren't liberal.

At least the vast majority of them that conclude that ~drugs are bad~

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Every superhero stops crime by application of extreme force rather than welfare and education programs. That's pretty much the opposite of liberal.

[BitVyper]

How is having a new Spiderman replace an old one, which is a thing that happens in comics all the time and has been accepted as a thing that has happened even with Spidey before, a violation of continuity, especially when the entire Ultimate Spidey series has been taking place in a different Marvel universe from word go anyways?

In fairness, another thing that happens all the time is comic book fans freaking out over heroes getting replaced, so it's not like it's unique to Spiderblack. I mean Blackspider! I mean Darkieblack! Blackdark! BLACK! BLACK! BLACK!

[Nique]

I would consider anti-drug propaganda to be steeped in political correctness rather than belonging to strictly conservative causes though. I guess 'liberal' might be the wrong word as far as it's actual application but comics do tend to fall on the left side of social causes if they are mentioned at all.

Every superhero stops crime by application of extreme force rather than welfare and education programs. That's pretty much the opposite of liberal.

Beating up bad guys is the cool part. Green Arrow lecturing Green Lantern on not saying things like 'you people' is the 'message' part.

Spiderblack. I mean Blackspider! I mean Darkieblack! Blackdark! BLACK! BLACK! BLACK!

:eek:

[BitVyper]

How is their characterization of drug users, dealers, and even drugs in general in any way politically correct?

[Kim]

I'd say it's pretty much the opposite!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Beating up bad guys is the cool part. Green Arrow lecturing Green Lantern on not saying things like 'you people' is the 'message' part.



Do as I say not as I do?

[BitVyper]

Or I'll punch you.

[Nique]

How is their characterization of drug users, dealers, and even drugs in general in any way politically correct?

Wikipedia might help me out here.

Political correctness ... is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.

Perhaps the particulars of these depictions have been offensive, but I would say that a balanced depiction of drug use would be interpreted as an overtly favorable one, which could cause considerable offense and be considered politically incorrect.

...politically incorrect connotes language, ideas, and behavior unconstrained by a perceived orthodoxy or by concerns about offending or expressing bias regarding various groups of people.

I'd say it's pretty much the opposite!

I would agree becuase that's what ACTUAL political correctness should be. But part of it's definition implies catering to the sensibilities of as many people as possible. Hard to offend with the 'drugs are bad' message. Though, again, this is hardly the only social issue addressed in comic books.

Do as I say not as I do?

Consider Captain America's origin story. Now consider how many anti-drug comics he has featured in. You will have your answer.

[Magus]

In fairness, another thing that happens all the time is comic book fans freaking out over heroes getting replaced, so it's not like it's unique to Spiderblack. I mean Blackspider! I mean Darkieblack! Blackdark! BLACK! BLACK! BLACK!

I like Blackspider but the official name for Miles Morales' alter ego is now El Hombre Aracnido Negro. So it is written, so shall it be done.

EDIT: lol I accidentally had hermano (brother) instead of hombre (man). That opens up a whole new slew of hilarity/racial insensitivity, though!

[BitVyper]

How is their characterization of drug users, dealers, and even drugs in general in any way politically correct?

It's not like their only other option is to write Drugs: The Comic Where Everyone is High All The Time. You can easily explore a lot of the actual issues without the hamfisted, offensive approach that comics take, which almost always misses the actual problems.

[Magus]

Okay, how about this: comics are de facto liberal by routinely pissing off Tea Partiers and Conservatives, whether it be Captain America commenting on a Tea party rally, Nightrunner being a black Muslim, or the new Ultimate Spider-man being biracial.

[Nique]

BITVYPER WHY U DOULBE POST?!?!

You can easily explore a lot of the actual issues without the hamfisted, offensive approach that comics take, which almost always misses the actual problems.

Actually, can someone point me to a recent anti-drugs comic becuase I don't remember seeing anything like this within the last like, 15 years. Or at the very least are there any relevant stories? I'm curious if this issue is in fact being handled with the same early 90's D.A.R.E.esque manner.

Okay, how about this: comics are de facto liberal by routinely pissing off Tea Partiers and Conservatives, whether it be Captain America commenting on a Tea party rally, Nightrunner being a black Muslim, or the new Ultimate Spider-man being biracial.

ARG screw you for saying what I wanted to say but instead it makes sense. Now I have to find a new point to obfuscate.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Okay, how about this: comics are de facto liberal by routinely pissing off Tea Partiers and Conservatives, whether it be Captain America commenting on a Tea party rally, Nightrunner being a black Muslim, or the new Ultimate Spider-man being biracial.

Everything pisses off the teaparty. Bits of the bible and the American revolution piss off the teaparty. Probably not the best judging standard.

[Magus]

Everything pisses off the teaparty. Bits of the bible and the American revolution piss off the teaparty. Probably not the best judging standard.

Only when liberals "interpret" them differently than they do.

[Jagos]

Dude, seriously...

What. The. FLYING. FUCK!? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2021563/Marvel-Comics-reveal-new-Spider-Man-black-gay-future.html)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Marvel artist says at some point they might make a gay superhero. I don't see where the flying fuck comes in? Unless youa re talking about the comments section which are pretty ridic.

[Sky Warrior Bob]

I would agree with this - Comic fans lean towards more liberal viewpoints like most nerdlings and are not exclusively white either.

Personally, I am more apt to think that this idea came from someone in marketing, who doesn't have a clue on the readers of comics. Sure, they might have done some study that convinced themselves that their prime audience was 'Liberal' & thus would actively enjoy this move.

When in truth, all the study could prove is that the readers might be liberal leaning, but while the comic might see a temporary boost thanks to rubber necking. (PPL checking out the comic, not to enjoy, but to see what's going on.)

In the end, I suspect this change will be reversed, because while the readership might soft support things, that doesn't mean they actively will seek out their entainment, supporting demographics.

So, in the end, this is about marketing, rather than politics. I suggest we not confuse the two.

[Jagos]

Marvel artist says at some point they might make a gay superhero. I don't see where the flying fuck comes in? Unless youa re talking about the comments section which are pretty ridic.

The have some. They have some really good gay characters that don't go overboard with the camp gay or the flaming gay stereotypes in regular E-23. But Marvel would really have to sell the "gay" part of this because there's all told unknown amounts of implications from making a kid half black, half latino and a kid trying to grow up.

[Kim]

I really have no idea what you're saying or why it even approaches flying fuck material.

Like not even the slightest clue what you're talking about.

[Premmy]

Putting aside all the existing minority characters in a rush to pile in as many "Minorityness" as possible in one character being tacky, maybe?
:raise:

[Kim]

But how are they putting aside existing minority characters? It's not like they've stopped writing them, AFAIK.

[Premmy]

I do believe they(All the minority Characters, yes ALL of them) are either second-stringers or Luke Cage. Meaning they rarely get written, and most often in teams, or guest shots... Iunno.

[Kim]

Hell, they don't even actually say this character might be gay. They say someday maybe a character being gay will be viewed as normal. I think, for the most part, that it's not viewed as normal yet for that to be a trait of superheroes, not in the same way heterosexual superheroes are just accepted as being heterosexual without readers even blinking, and I think that's what he was getting at.

So he wasn't saying "This character is going to have all the minorities so we're super inclusive." He was saying, "Hey, maybe someday being inclusive will be the norm, like it should be." That's how I read the actual quote, at least.

That said, even if this new character is gay, I don't at all see a correlation between the traits of this new Spiderman and that other minority characters don't get the spotlight enough. The latter is it's own problem that has existed for way too long and we don't really have any reason to think, as far as I know, that it will suddenly get worse, or that if it did get worse that it happened because the new Spiderman was gay.

I guess I also sorta hate the idea that something as simple as being a person of color and gay is being "too" inclusive. I mean, that doesn't even start to tread into the sort of territory I'd call forced.

[Jagos]

They have some. They have some really good gay characters that don't go overboard with the camp gay or the flaming gay stereotypes in regular E-23.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northstar)

But Marvel would really have to sell the "gay" part of this because there's all told unknown amounts of implications from making a kid half black, half latino and a kid trying to grow up.

There's a lot of Unfortunate Implications (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnfortunateImplications) that can go with making a half black, half latino kid growing up as gay. The backlash, if he's not written well, will be tremendous. They will really have to define the character other than in terms of race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhopxZqQrmo&feature=player_embedded), to sell him to the public.

I think, for the most part, that it's not viewed as normal yet for that to be a trait of superheroes, not in the same way heterosexual superheroes are just accepted as being heterosexual without readers even blinking, and I think that's what he was getting at.

No, that's not it at all. I would be sorely pissed if he's the star of the Spider Man series and suddenly, he's also the Token Black Guy through his characterization. There's ways to make him appealing. It shouldn't be his sexuality that sells us on making him an endearing character. It should be how he reacts to situations. He's gotten a very good one by stepping into the Spiderman suit. But if all of a sudden he's a flamer in high school, or something that goes against the ethos of what it means to be Spiderman, I would be damn sure to riot.

[Kim]

How about instead of just saying there are "unfortunate implications" you explain what those unfortunate implications are. A link to TV Tropes and a Youtube video is worthless to me. Defend your own points.

ALSO: There's a big difference between having a character like Spiderman as a minority character and having a character that the vast majority of non-comics-nerds have never heard of as a minority character. And I also don't get what you're saying, either. "We don't need another gay character there already is one"? I mean, what's the point of bringing it up? It's not so much that I actually think you mean, "____ gay characters is enough" but that I honestly don't get whatever relevance this is supposed to have to... anything.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The argument that "He shouldn't be defined by his sexuality" is a terrible one. Yes in a perfect world he shouldn't be but that's nto the world we live in and taking a stand with a major fictional character is useful in combatting prejudice.
And I still don't really understand what your argument is.

[Magus]

I guess that if you deal with the societal problems facing minorities, you are only defining the character by their minority status, which is false assertion, I'd say. I'm sure the character will run into problems not informed by his minority status.

Plus as far as I can tell the character isn't gay so flipping out about the character being gay is kind of confusing to me.

[Jagos]

The thing is, there's a lot of problems with having him being a stereotype. If race is the only thing that defines him, there's going to be a lot of problems with people accepting him. It's the same problems that Marvel can have with Luke Cage, Panther, or any other black character. In that GO episode, he's the ONLY one without a mask... Who just so happens to be black. And no one thought of this? I think that's going to raise the standards of what people want to see from him.

The thing I'm pointing out with other gay characters is that there's plenty within the regular E-23 universe that aren't defined by just being gay. If Marvel is going to sit there and have either sexuality or race define the new Spiderman, he won't be accepted. It's questioning why bring that up for the character in the future. It's already damn hard to sell a lot of gay characters. But now that you have one that's gay, black and Latino, increases the expectations for him that much more.

[Kim]

The thing is, there's a lot of problems with having him being a stereotype. If race is the only thing that defines him, there's going to be a lot of problems with people accepting him. It's the same problems that Marvel can have with Luke Cage, Panther, or any other black character. In that GO episode, he's the ONLY one without a mask... Who just so happens to be black. And no one thought of this? I think that's going to raise the standards of what people want to see from him.

The thing I'm pointing out with other gay characters is that there's plenty within the regular E-23 universe that aren't defined by just being gay. If Marvel is going to sit there and have either sexuality or race define the new Spiderman, he won't be accepted. It's questioning why bring that up for the character in the future. It's already damn hard to sell a lot of gay characters. But now that you have one that's gay, black and Latino, increases the expectations for him that much more.

So, you respond to an inclusive character with "What the flying fuck?!" all angry like because people will have high expectations for him?

Also, as I and others have pointed out, they at no point whatsoever said ANYTHING about the new Spiderman being gay.

THEY SAID NOTHING ABOUT THIS. AT ALL.

They said, basically, "Maybe someday it will be normal for a character to be black, or gay, or both." This has been twisted into "We might have our Spiderman be gay" which has in turn been twisted into "Our Spiderman is gay."

Which is ridiculous.

Secondly, you're assuming that his minority status is the only thing which will define him and acting as though him being a minority at all has "unfortunate implications."

You say this without any actual knowledge of the character except for his race and the blown-out-of-proportion possibility that he might possibly maybe be gay perhaps. And you act as though him being a minority MEANS the only thing that will define him is his minority status.

And you conveyed all this with "What the flying fuck?!"

Which is basically you being upset and angry that he's a minority I guess?

[Overcast]

Will admit I skipped over a lot so excuse me if this seems off. Spiderman is a big name hero in terms of familiarity to those who have an idea of what comics are. He is not one in the terms of general power in the Marvel Universe. Nor is he so strongly tied to an idea, the fact that he fights crime at all is tied to a very personal situation. The whole hero is very personal to Peter. He has never had a sidekick, never tried to shape a protege. He is Spiderman. Combine this with the fact that creating a new Spiderman when he was not shaped or related in any way save for the costume and they have to deal with trying to make the new character get the powers in a way that doesn't feel contrived.

This is in part why seeing Spiderman become someone else has such a major effect on various fans. To them the more important aspect of Spiderman was not the costume, but the man in it.

In that mindset you have the incoming new guy. Who is, as spoken, black and latino. Now I think the community would have been angry but gotten over it if the media hadn't made such a big deal about it. If the writer hadn't made such a big deal about it. If everyone other than the fans hadn't painted this as the sweetest thing to happen to Spiderman ever.

This puts off an idea that by killing off Peter they have made a marked improvement to what Spiderman was. This feels insulting to people who have so closely related to the character.

So you have retaliation. It comes with a racial bias because that same bias had been used to claim that this was an improvement, which they feel is a bullshit claim.

Me I'm back and forth, and just trying to distance myself from as many opinions as I can so I can read it and see if I like where this is going. The opinions on both sides bother me, and I just want to read my comics in peace.

[rpgdemon]

Honestly, I hope that whatever they end up having him be (Gay, black, latino, transexual, whatever!), they just don't remark upon it at all. Like, it's never a plotpoint except as would be expected (Love interest, et cetera). So the guy is just treated like a normal dude. And then all these people will be flipping out going, "I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE'S THIS GAY TRANSEXUAL BLACK LATINO SPIDERMAN OH CRAP IT'S SO OFFENSIVE THAT HE'S JUST A NORMAL DUDE LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE."

[Kim]

Will admit I skipped over a lot so excuse me if this seems off. Spiderman is a big name hero in terms of familiarity to those who have an idea of what comics are. He is not one in the terms of general power in the Marvel Universe. Nor is he so strongly tied to an idea, the fact that he fights crime at all is tied to a very personal situation. The whole hero is very personal to Peter. He has never had a sidekick, never tried to shape a protege. He is Spiderman. Combine this with the fact that creating a new Spiderman when he was not shaped or related in any way save for the costume and they have to deal with trying to make the new character get the powers in a way that doesn't feel contrived.

There've been several other versions of Spiderman, including a future Spiderman and a Spiderwoman that Peter was all, "Yeah, you can totes be a Spiderhero." These are just the ones I know. So the idea of Spiderman isn't even specific to Peter Parker, and the idea of someone being inspired by his death to take up the mantle is very believable. As for "contrived powers," keep in mind that we continue to accept radioactive spider as an origin story despite its inherent ridiculousness.

This is in part why seeing Spiderman become someone else has such a major effect on various fans. To them the more important aspect of Spiderman was not the costume, but the man in it.Once again, more than one Spiderhero in the Marvel universe.

In that mindset you have the incoming new guy. Who is, as spoken, black and latino. Now I think the community would have been angry but gotten over it if the media hadn't made such a big deal about it. If the writer hadn't made such a big deal about it. If everyone other than the fans hadn't painted this as the sweetest thing to happen to Spiderman ever.

This puts off an idea that by killing off Peter they have made a marked improvement to what Spiderman was. This feels insulting to people who have so closely related to the character.

So you have retaliation. It comes with a racial bias because that same bias had been used to claim that this was an improvement, which they feel is a bullshit claim."It's okay they're racist because they're just upset people are okay with Peter Parker being replaced."? Pffffffffft.

Me I'm back and forth, and just trying to distance myself from as many opinions as I can so I can read it and see if I like where this is going. The opinions on both sides bother me, and I just want to read my comics in peace.~BoThSiDeZ~

Honestly, I hope that whatever they end up having him be (Gay, black, latino, transexual, whatever!), they just don't remark upon it at all. Like, it's never a plotpoint except as would be expected (Love interest, et cetera). So the guy is just treated like a normal dude. And then all these people will be flipping out going, "I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE'S THIS GAY TRANSEXUAL BLACK LATINO SPIDERMAN OH CRAP IT'S SO OFFENSIVE THAT HE'S JUST A NORMAL DUDE LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE."

My main problem with this is that being gay does affect people's lives beyond the fact that they're into dudes in ways that there aren't really heterosexual equivalents to. It does impact people's lives, and so long as it's handled well I don't think the comic should shy away from showing that. I'd say the same is probably true of being a person of color.

[Nikose Tyris]

In 3 months Gay Black Latino Spiderman will transform into a giant spider, die and Peter Parker will emerge from the corpse with all of Miles Morales's new powers, calling it now.

Edit: For reference, MANY SPIDERMANS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_versions_of_Spider-Man)

Edit2: And yes, 2099 Spidey was also Latino.

[Kim]

Bendis says new Spidey is a long-term plan for the series. I hope he is telling the truth.

[Nikose Tyris]

Me too. 2099 was an amazing hero and I'd love to see what Miles is capable of.

[Aerozord]

I do admit making him black and latino kind of screams "lets see how many minorities we can get with one character". Possible they went with this with the intention of showing that a character can be a minority without it defining them, of course forgetting thats been done already. Though I have trouble believing they didn't intentionally go in this with the goal of making him a minority character.

If that last line confuses you, alot of writers default to characters that are a reflection of themselves. I for example, unless I have a reason to do otherwise I go with a white male character cause its a background and existence I am knowledgeable in. I can write a character thats black, or a woman, or gay, but its all second hand knowledge so it takes abit more effort.

In other words I dont see this new Spider Man being created organically and at some point someone said "hey lets make him two minorities, that will be interesting"

[Kim]

This is another problem I have with this thinking.

People need a "reason" or a justification for any character that isn't a white, straight male, but they never, ever seem to expect the same justification for a character being a white, straight male.

It's bullshit. It continues to support the idea that white, straight male is the norm and to deviate from that needs an excuse, and I absolutely hate that and want less of that thinking in all forms of entertainment.

There are plenty of people that are black and latino. Expecting justification for them to get representation, or any other minority for that matter, is a bullshit double standard.

[Jagos]

Secondly, you're assuming that his minority status is the only thing which will define him and acting as though him being a minority at all has "unfortunate implications."

I already know he has yet to be given anything in terms of a character because we'll have to see with Ultimate Fallout. What I'm surprised about with the article is how they'll characterize him to make him a good one. So far, the easiest way seems to be by the use of two themes. Sexuality (which they're thinking about at the very least) and race. So until we get some characterization, I'd rather they left those two themes alone and allow the character to grow naturally. It's all in how they show him growing, and right now, it seems that they're using the wrong ideas to show his growth.

[Aerozord]

This is another problem I have with this thinking.

People need a "reason" or a justification for any character that isn't a white, straight male, but they never, ever seem to expect the same justification for a character being a white, straight male.

It's bullshit. It continues to support the idea that white, straight male is the norm and to deviate from that needs an excuse, and I absolutely hate that and want less of that thinking in all forms of entertainment.

There are plenty of people that are black and latino. Expecting justification for them to get representation, or any other minority for that matter, is a bullshit double standard.

you misread, I am not saying I default white straight male because its the norm, I default white straight male because I have a better understanding of a white straight male. And by justification, I mean the logical ones, like if a love interest character is male I'd make the protagonist female or gay (depending on my mood) without a second thought.

Though I make no claims I have a deep understanding of how, say a woman thinks. If I did I probably wouldn't be single. Its why I try to consult women on if my female characters are behaving realistically

[edit]I am saying I think the reason you see so many straight white males is because of this. Though sure there are many black and gay writers that do it because of societal pressures. Why you need a reason is simple, because there should be no stigma against it. There is nothing wrong with making a character thats a white straight male, so why shouldn't I?

[Kim]

HOW DARE THEY POINT OUT THAT HE'S NOT WHITE CLEARLY THAT WILL BE HIS ONLY TRAIT!

There are so many justifiable reasons for them to say not just, "Hey, there's a new Spiderman" but also "We're giving some minority representation" but you automatically jump to the idea that because they revealed this beforehand and the same single interview has been posted on all the sites that this will be his only trait.

[Overcast]

There've been several other versions of Spiderman, including a future Spiderman and a Spiderwoman that Peter was all, "Yeah, you can totes be a Spiderhero." These are just the ones I know. So the idea of Spiderman isn't even specific to Peter Parker, and the idea of someone being inspired by his death to take up the mantle is very believable. As for "contrived powers," keep in mind that we continue to accept radioactive spider as an origin story despite its inherent ridiculousness.

Valid, but awkward. Odd thing about Spiderwoman is depending on the writer she has barely a thing to do with Spiderman or is a clone of him. Shit gets confusing. Spidergirl was a genuine protege but ended up alternate universed. Future and past spiderpeople are usually considered alternate universes as well since they are meant to be period pieces. Most end up so distinctly their own that there is very little issue with them. But in this case we are talking about someone passing down the mantel, which of course brings me back to the origin.

It is that radioactive spider that really is the issue when it comes to it being contrived. This is the origin that we have made to Spidey's powers, even as science marched on we haven't changed it. What might seem contrived is if the person by some wondrous coincidence is getting those spider-powers soon after Peter's death. Shaping a protege usually helps void this, like with Spidergirl. They need to think up a way to make this seem natural, my bet is he is a mutant and always had these abilities, they just started cropping up now.


"It's okay they're racist because they're just upset people are okay with Peter Parker being replaced."? Pffffffffft.

It isn't okay for them to be racist. But it isn't respectful to claim that a change of race is a much better thing. Superiority on either side is wrong.

[Jagos]

Non, your quote is absolutely wrong.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

"It's okay they're racist because they're just upset people are okay with Peter Parker being replaced."? Pffffffffft.

"Despite what you're saying about the reasoning behind their belief and that they have other reasons that aren't racially charged they're still all racists because the situation involves race."

~BoThSiDeZ~


Whelp, here we go again.
There have been other Spider-man characters in different times, places and circumstances, but it's a little different than instances like the Scarlet Spider and Spider-Girl. We're talking about Peter being killed off and entirely replaced by a new character. In my knowledge this hasn't happened to in Spider-man yet. Or even in any other story when the character that was so iconic as Peter Parker.

That's the significance to the situation in my eyes. With the Flash and numerous other cases where the hero was replaced, the Hero was what was important to the story. Flash and Green Lantern as personas were the stars of the show. But with the case of Spider-Man the thing that keeps people reading and tuning in is Peter Motherfucking Parker.

Truth be told ultimately I don't care much for Ultimate marvel anymore, but I know for a damn fact my friend was pissy about this whole thing before they ever revealed who the new Spider-Man was and I know he's not the only one.
At that, I think the reason this has become a thing is because a few weeks ago when you said "Man I don't want this new Spider-man around. I liked Peter Parker." You were fine. But now it's a racist comment even if your reasons have absolutely fuckall to do with the new character and everything to do with how his death happened, why it happened and how they're handling the transition, which as Overcast said has been to paint the death of Peter as an improvement to the story. Which for many people is an insult.

[Kim]

It isn't okay for them to be racist. But it isn't respectful to claim that a change of race is a much better thing. Superiority on either side is wrong.

Minority representation by a well-known hero is a much better thing, because that needs to happen and should have been happening long ago. It's not, "Spiderman is better because he's not white" and I don't think I've seen ANYONE claim that was the case. It's, "Finally, some minority representation in comics." Which is more than reasonable and characterizing as anything but is ludicrous.

[Nikose Tyris]

I'm pretty much holding off on everything until I see if they give him a unique origin story for his powers, good writing and make him unique; Once a little while passes we'll be able to see that pretty clearly and I'll probably wind up disliking him for reasons Karesh listed.

[Kim]

Peter dying is totally an improvement to the story, because superheroes should die and they should stay dead and the story should continue on. It creates the illusion that events in the universe actually matter.

And I couldn't possibly think they're racists because the majority of those I see complaining make it about his race.

That would be silly.

[Marc v4.0]

Except now superhero death is so ground into the dirt that it doesn't actually evoke anything.

On top of the fact that having someone die just to show shit got real is pretty much the lasiest bullshit method of adding depth to your story to begin with.

[Kim]

Non, your quote is absolutely wrong.

Your "flying fuck" comment colors every subsequent post.

You're, as far as I can tell, using the fact that they drew attention to his race as the basis for your assumption that this will be his singular defining traits and you're mad about it, even though we haven't had time to learn more about him.

Except now superhero death is so ground into the dirt that it doesn't actually evoke anything.

On top of the fact that having someone die just to show shit got real is pretty much the lasiest bullshit method of adding depth to your story to begin with.I think this really depends on whether or not Parker stays dead.

[Jagos]

And it's a Marvel character. It's just a matter of time before they bring Parker back through Dr. Strange or the Scarlet Witch or introduce a new arc where we get to go to an alternate universe where Peter Parker survives.

Your using the fact that they drew attention to his race as the basis for your assumption that this will be his singular defining traits and you're mad about it.

Did I say that was the ONLY defining character? Did I sit here and say his characterization would need a lot more work? Or am I the one throwing assumptions of what others are saying because you're reading two words to throw around jackass comments like your quote?

\/ I agree with Aero here. Maybe I'm not expressing it as well, but killing off Peter Parker, putting up a black/latino Spiderman, then saying there's a possibility that he'll be gay in the future, screams attention in all the wrong ways.

[Aerozord]

Minority representation by a well-known hero is a much better thing, because that needs to happen and should have been happening long ago. It's not, "Spiderman is better because he's not white" and I don't think I've seen ANYONE claim that was the case. It's, "Finally, some minority representation in comics." Which is more than reasonable and characterizing as anything but is ludicrous.

I disagree I think creating an entirely new character that just happens to be a minority would be a better way to do diversity. Intentional or not replacing a hero with a minority character screams "publicity stunt", if it didn't we wouldn't be discussing it in the first place.

Of course maybe its just the times we live in, no one batted an eye when Nick Fury was made black in this same continuity

[Kim]

And it's a Marvel character. It's just a matter of time before they bring Parker back through Dr. Strange or the Scarlet Witch or introduce a new arc where we get to go to an alternate universe where Peter Parker survives.

There's already a universe where Parker survives. It's called the normal Marvel universe.

If new Spidey doesn't stick around, then what the fuck do you all care about New Spidey anyways.

If he does stick around, then it invalidates your retort.

Did I say that was the ONLY defining character? Did I sit here and say his characterization would need a lot more work? Or am I the one throwing assumptions of what others are saying because you're reading two words to throw around jackass comments like your quote?You GOT MAD because someone said something that can be interpreted if you look at it the right way to mean they might possibly maybe make Spidey gay.

And then it took you three more posts to say, "Well, they should define him by his sexuality because defining him by his race would be bad" or something. I dunno, your posts were a complete mess. And then you've expanded that to, "Well, I just think that because they're focusing on it so much that means that's how they'll define him." As far as I've seen, their focusing on it is revealing the character and a single interview that's been reposted ad nauseum, so I have no idea where this is even coming from.

then saying there's a possibility that he'll be gay in the future.They never said this.

Why do you keep saying they said this.

Besides, it's no more of a "publicity stunt" than killing Spidey in the first place.

[Overcast]

Minority representation by a well-known hero is a much better thing, because that needs to happen and should have been happening long ago.

Minority representation by a well-known hero can be a much better thing. This is a situation where they are not handling it properly, and they picked a hero whose real life persona is so intrinsic to the character.

It's not, "Spiderman is better because he's not white" and I don't think I've seen ANYONE claim that was the case. It's, "Finally, some minority representation in comics." Which is more than reasonable and characterizing as anything but is ludicrous.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14394181

This article, and its quotes, seem to paint that Spiderman is better because he is mixed. And that Peter Parker is not the face that Spiderman should have for the 21st century. In this way when they say finally some minority representation in comics it rubs people as Spiderman is better because he's not white.

[Kim]

This article, and its quotes, seem to paint that Spiderman is better because he is mixed. And that Peter Parker is not the face that Spiderman should have for the 21st century. In this way when they say finally some minority representation in comics it rubs people as Spiderman is better because he's not white.

Not seeing that AT ALL.

[Kim]

@Jagos: I mean, really, it's the getting mad at the remote possibility of Spidey being gay according to a misconstruing of what the artist said. I could not remind of that last bit harder since you seem to enjoy forgetting it.

That's a completely different ballgame from being worried about how they'll handle the character. That's not the same as just being suspicious of their motivations.

This is straight up getting mad that Spidey is going to be gay for poorly explained reasons that it took you several posts before you could even start poorly explaining. Yes that is totally and reasonably going to color every subsequent post you make on the subject.

[Overcast]

But I am. Now there is two ways this can go. Either you or I are genuinely right and the other is dead stinking wrong wrong, or that you have a certain perspective on it and so do I and since you can't see it from where I am at you can't understand why people are getting so worked up. And since I can't see from where you are I can't see why this is such an important milestone.

So, do you hate me, or can we agree to disagree?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I didn't see that either (referring to marvel saying that ixed race spider is better). Surely if that was the case they would be like "Oh fuck, we killed that whitey. Latinoblacks all the way!" all the mentions of race has been from non-marvel sources, ie racists kicking a shit.

[Kim]

I can agree that you're seeing what you're looking for in that article, but that does not actually mean it is there.

[Overcast]

So you hate me then?

[Kim]

Sure, why not.

If the choice is pretending that your opinion is as valid as mine when I honestly don't think it is or letting you think I hate you, then I guess I'll go with the latter.

I wouldn't normally think those are the only two options, but I'm not going to get too hung up on it since that's what you decided.

[Fifthfiend]

I think this really depends on whether or not Parker stays dead.

This is only just this side of saying it depends on whether the sun rises in the morning.

But I am. Now there is two ways this can go. Either you or I are genuinely right and the other is dead stinking wrong wrong, or that you have a certain perspective on it and so do I and since you can't see it from where I am at you can't understand why people are getting so worked up. And since I can't see from where you are I can't see why this is such an important milestone.

So, do you hate me, or can we agree to disagree?

It's interesting that you immediately equate you being wrong with him hating you.

Does that apply to everything? If you take a math test and your teacher says "Well on this question, rather than being correct, you were not", does he hate you, does he think you are the worst human being ever to live? Or does he think that you were... wrong, in your answer to a question?

[Overcast]

Which is because you won't respect an opinion other than your own. At any rate the merest fact that such an article exists simply lets us know that nothing has changed. If this was really progress, then we shouldn't have said a word.

[Kim]

This is only just this side of saying it depends on whether the sun rises in the morning.

I'm not particularly invested in comics in general, but I may try to be invested in the new Spidey since it's not only a new beginning but one I feel needs supporting and one that hasn't been rehashed fifty times. It'll be new to me, it'll be a good place to start, and I want to support it. I'll support it as long as it lasts and give them the benefit that they intend to continue it for some time. I do this last bit because it's an alternate universe, so I'm hoping they're willing to experiment as much as they should. Of course, my main comics experience being DC alt-universe mini-series has undoubtedly colored my perception of such things.

[Krylo]

I think the problem people are having is that they chose the wrong character to include minority representation with.

People don't give a fuck about Spiderman. People care about Peter Parker. This has been the case since the comics came out back in the days before time because Peter Parker, as the lonely fuck up nerd who gets super powers, resonates like a motherfucker with the kind of people who read comics.

Replacing him with a mixed race character and talking about how minority representation is so great and what not is going to rub people the wrong way because it DOES come off as blatino spiderman is better because we're now making our affirmative action quota in our comics with no mind being paid to the fact that people only read the books for Parker.

It'd be like if they rereleased Persona 4 and decided to remove Kanji, to use a character I know YOU care about, and replace him with a black man name John who has an obvious boyfriend and then rather than talk about the removal of an important character to the gaming community, they talked about how great it was to finally have a racial minority in the game.

Would it be true that they're saying the character is better because he's a minority? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the wording. Would it still rub you the wrong way like a motherfucker?

I'm guessing that it would.

And I'm thinking maybe you should try to see it from a perspective other than your own here.

Also: Maybe if they talked less about race and more about whether this character would share/not share the aspects of Parker's personality that resonated it would help. Maybe not, though. It'd still be a different character.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Which is because you won't respect an opinion other than your own. At any rate the merest fact that such an article exists simply lets us know that nothing has changed. If this was really progress, then we shouldn't have said a word.

That's kind of the exact point everyone has been making. The fact that bigots are kicking a shit shows the exact need for positive role models for both racial and sexual minorities.7

E: Re Krylo- I am that is a valid point but from reading the news articles and the comments on them nobody is making that point. They keep bringing up the race and not that they like Peter so much.

[Kim]

Which is because you won't respect an opinion other than your own.

Not necessarily. I just won't respect opinions I find unarguably wrong.

At any rate the merest fact that such an article exists simply lets us know that nothing has changed. If this was really progress, then we shouldn't have said a word.I get that you're trying to be all "the fact that we're calling attention to progress means it's not progress," which is asinine, but I'm willing to say we still have a long ways to go. Where we primarily differ is that I think forcing progress, drawing attention to said progress, and supporting said progress are steps in achieving progress.

You seem to think that if we acknowledge progress it doesn't count and therefore shouldn't happen.

I have a hard time reading it any other way.

[Fifthfiend]

White/straight privilege is the weirdest thing.

[Kim]

True progress is ignored!

lol

[Krylo]

Pretty sure OC has said he's not straight multiple times.

As for me I don't give a shit about Spiderman or Parker, but I find myself empathizing with both sides and I really just want them both to stop yelling at each other which is going to require one side to see the other's point of view.

And Nonsy is more than capable of getting HIS across.

[Jagos]

I could not remind of that last bit harder since you seem to enjoy forgetting it.

Seriously, why in blue bloody hell would I be getting mad? I'm not. It's just random as all hell to suddenly see Marvel change the character so drastically.

[Krylo]

E: Re Krylo- I am that is a valid point but from reading the news articles and the comments on them nobody is making that point. They keep bringing up the race and not that they like Peter so much.

The point was made multiple times in this thread, though.

I don't really care about the articles and their commenters. The latter half of that sentence, at least, is always made up of 100% completely terrible people.

[Kim]

Seriously, why in blue bloody hell would I be getting mad? I'm not. It's just random as all hell to suddenly see Marvel change the character so drastically.It is unbelievably hard to believe that because... well...

Dude, seriously...

What. The. FLYING. FUCK!? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2021563/Marvel-Comics-reveal-new-Spider-Man-black-gay-future.html)

I dunno sounds pretty mad to me!

I don't really care about the articles and their commenters. The latter half of that sentence, at least, is always made up of 100% completely terrible people.

I don't think I've ever called anyone in this thread a racist. I made fun of OC for defending racists and was TO'd about the double standard we hold minority characters to, but that's not the same thing.

[Julford Hajime]

I don't really care about the articles and their commenters. The latter half of that sentence, at least, is always made up of 100% completely terrible people.

But I post comments on online articles :(

[Jagos]

And that's text.

What would be your reaction if after you've grown up with a character, they're suddenly changing him into an entirely different one?

[Kim]

And that's text.

Still sounds pretty mad!

What would be your reaction if after you've grown up with a character, they're suddenly changing him into an entirely different one?Are you implying that I and everyone who supports this change exist in a different dimension from yours and have only come to know of Spiderman's existence quite recently?

That's dimensionist.

[Nikose Tyris]

I'm not particularly invested in comics in general, but I may try to be invested in the new Spidey since it's not only a new beginning but one I feel needs supporting and one that hasn't been rehashed fifty times. It'll be new to me, it'll be a good place to start, and I want to support it. I'll support it as long as it lasts and give them the benefit that they intend to continue it for some time. I do this last bit because it's an alternate universe, so I'm hoping they're willing to experiment as much as they should. Of course, my main comics experience being DC alt-universe mini-series has undoubtedly colored my perception of such things.

Actually, by your words, you seem to imply you aren't all that familiar with Spiderman.

[Krylo]

But I post comments on online articles :(

Yup.

[Kim]

Spiderman was a big part of my childhood. Not so much my adult life.

I don't read all the comics, but that doesn't mean I'm not attached to the hero.

Beyond that, I hardly think everyone who did grow up with Spiderman and read all the comics and owns all the action figures is on the anti-new-Spidey side by default, which was my point more than anything. How many times have we seen Spidey's origin rehashed? Perhaps it's time for something actually new.

[Jagos]

How many times have we seen Spidey's origin rehashed? Perhaps it's time for something actually new.

That I'll agree with. The rest is just reaching.

[Kim]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Fenris]

That I'll agree with. The rest is just reaching.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Cool it, both of you.

[Token]

And it's a Marvel character. It's just a matter of time before they bring Parker back through Dr. Strange or the Scarlet Witch or introduce a new arc where we get to go to an alternate universe where Peter Parker survives.

Both dead. And people stay dead in the Ultimate universe.



\/ I agree with Aero here. Maybe I'm not expressing it as well, but killing off Peter Parker, putting up a black/latino Spiderman, then saying there's a possibility that he'll be gay in the future, screams attention in all the wrong ways.


There's already a universe where Parker survives. It's called the normal Marvel universe.

Except 616 Peter and Ultimate Peter are quite different, when it comes right down to it.

Still sounds pretty mad!

Are you implying that I and everyone who supports this change exist in a different dimension from yours and have only come to know of Spiderman's existence quite recently?

That's dimensionist.

You've admitted you know jack and shit about Spidey, and stuff you've said has backed that up. Jagos is used to the character, followed him, and related to him. You barely know the character. You're just being argumentative for the sake of it here.

And as for all this "oh, he'll come back lol," since the start of the Ultimate Universe, I'm fairly certain there was exactly ONE character who "came back to life," and he wasn't even killed in the first place.

The argument that it's dumb to get upset about Peter dying because we still have 616 Peter is ignorant as hell, by the way. They aren't the same character. One is a man who many readers lost all respect for when he was selfish enough to throw away his marriage, unborn child (who many readers loved, since she would grow up to be Spider-Girl), and decades of continuity all for the sake of selfishly bringing back a woman who's time had canonically come, and was on death's doorstep anyway. The other is a boy who tries to do the right thing no matter what, to the extent where he took a bullet for a man who called him an idiotic child not two hours before, then, while bleeding to death, saved his neighborhood and family.

As for how the media's handling this, it's annoying me because he is being marketed based on his status as a minority, rather than letting who he is develop naturally, in a universe THAT HAS ALREADY HANDLED IT BETTER. Ultimate Colossus is gay. He was not marketed as gay, there were no press releases announcing him to be gay, and it was treated realistically and respectfully. Miles, on the other hand, while I quite like the bits of his character I've seen in Ultimate Fallout, is being marketed as "THE BLACK-LATIN SPIDER-MAN WHO WE'RE HINTING MAY BE GAY," instead of just "the new Spider-Man." It's pandering, done entirely for publicity, and it reeks of executive meddling, especially since Peter was killed just to bring this guy on board despite the fact that Bendis had another couple years worth of stories ready.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

My dad grew up in a time when his parents were looked at funny for being interracial. His mom was hispanic and his dad was white. I love that we live in a world where there are interracial characters. I do think it's a good idea to promote minorities in comics but that doesn't effect my view on the new Spider-Man.

I'm a fan of Peter Parker. I don't know this new guy. It's not that he's bi-racial, it's that he's new and I just don't know him. That's the entire reason for my skepticism. He's a new guy being pushed into a role we're all very familiar with. But I have hope because of one character: Jaimie Reyes.

A few years ago Jaimie Reyes became the new Blue Beetle (a sort of c-list hero) and there was a bit of an uproar among the fans. Eventually though, they fell in love with the character as they grew to know him. Not as a minority replacement but as a true hero. And that's what we need. Heroes who just so happen to not be white.

Race in comics doesn't matter. The Falcon was one of the first black heroes to rise to prominence and he even headlined a title with Captain America. I would prefer that heroes like the Falcon be given bigger roles rather than "replace" heroes with minorities but I get it. It's hard to make an iconic hero so I can see the reasoning behind making the new wielder of superhero moniker a minority.

Focus on race needs to be replaced by a focus on the characterization.

[Fifthfiend]

Like IDG why so many people in this thread seem to think Spider-Man is being replaced, as opposed to one low-selling alternate-universe version of Spider-Man being replaced.

Like nobody in this thread except maybe Sevenshot has any basis for talking about the character they "grew up with" being replaced, because this isn't that character. And only him if he's one of the like... 20,000 people in the United States who still buys Ultimate Spider-Man.

[Nikose Tyris]

Actually the Ultimate Spiderman cartoon was kind of crap in comparison to the 90's Animated series one.

The comics weren't awful though.

Edit: I am being told there isn't an Ultimate Spiderman cartoon yet. I'm mis-remembering some other one that I disliked based on horrible character design and crappy coloring.

[Token]

I grew up with him, and I buy it because it's consistently good, unlike the mainline titles. :|

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Like nobody in this thread except maybe Sevenshot has any basis for talking about the character they "grew up with" being replaced, because this isn't that character. And only him if he's one of the like... 20,000 people in the United States who still buys Ultimate Spider-Man.

I am/was. All 160 issues.

Actually the Ultimate Spiderman cartoon was kind of crap in comparison to the 90's Animated series one.

The comics weren't awful though.

I believe that you're thinking of Spider-Man Unlimited. He goes into space for some reason and it was all stupid.

[Fifthfiend]

I mean everybody* should be upset with the Peter Parker they grew up reading comics about being replaced - in 2007, with a shittily written, unlikeable, devil-dealing douchebag, named "Peter Parker".

*and by "everybody" I mean people who care about comics. Which is to say, basically nobody, because nobody reads comics.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

I mean everybody* should be upset with the Peter Parker they grew up reading comics about being replaced - in 2007, with a shittily written, unlikeable, devil-dealing douchebag, named "Peter Parker".

That was my example of when my childhood died. Just sayin'.

[Jagos]

I mean everybody* should be upset with the Peter Parker they grew up reading comics about being replaced - in 2007, with a shittily written, unlikeable, devil-dealing douchebag, named "Peter Parker".

*and by "everybody" I mean people who care about comics. Which is to say, basically nobody, because nobody reads comics.

We are pissed about that. But unless Carne Quesada dies sometime soon, he gives not a fly nor a fuck how we, the buyers of comics, feel.

[Overcast]

We are pissed off, who said we weren't pissed off?

[Token]

I mean everybody* should be upset with the Peter Parker they grew up reading comics about being replaced - in 2007, with a shittily written, unlikeable, devil-dealing douchebag, named "Peter Parker".

Yes. Which is why Ultimate fans are sad that the relatable, non-douchey Parker is being replaced.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Like nobody in this thread except maybe Sevenshot has any basis for talking about the character they "grew up with" being replaced, because this isn't that character. And only him if he's one of the like... 20,000 people in the United States who still buys Ultimate Spider-Man.

With a quick check "Death of Spider-man" sold 159,000 copies.

[Kim]

Isn't it preferable to waiting for the eventuality of him being handed off to a new writer and getting turned into a douchebag?

[Fifthfiend]

With a quick check "Death of Spider-man" sold 159,000 copies.

Event sales don't mean shit.

EDIT: I could write THE DEATH OF ARCHIE and sell a million copies, it doesn't mean that Archie actually has a million readers.

[Token]

Isn't it preferable to waiting for the eventuality of him being handed off to a new writer and getting turned into a douchebag?

Bendis has written him for the entire run of the series, he's still writing UC:SM, and as I said, he had plans for at least two more years of comics. That wouldn't have been an issue, so your point is moot.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Event sales don't mean shit.

EDIT: I could write THE DEATH OF ARCHIE and sell a million copies, it doesn't mean that Archie actually has a million readers.

I dunno man, a couple of decades ago you might get away with saying everybody buys eight copies to sell later on (Which they'd have to do for there to only be 20,000 readers) but I think the industry has gotten to the point where the consumers might have figured out that's a pretty bad investment.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Isn't it preferable to waiting for the eventuality of him being handed off to a new writer and getting turned into a douchebag?

No one is really complaining about the death. What people seem to have a bone to pick with is that it may* have been an even cheaper stunt than we thought aimed at gaining media attention.

*I don't necessarily believe this. It's a possibility but I don't care. I'm interested in seeing what Miles Morales has to offer.

[Kim]

@Token: Not really. It just means you might have gotten two more years before Spidey turned into a douche, and if you can blame corporate meddling for Spidey's being killed off you can just as easily assume that same sort of meddling could have resulted in Spidey turning into a douche.

[Token]

Event sales don't mean shit.

EDIT: I could write THE DEATH OF ARCHIE and sell a million copies, it doesn't mean that Archie actually has a million readers.

Except Ultimate Spider-Man was pretty consistently selling in the top 30, so it had readers.

[Nikose Tyris]

Also strictly speaking MJ made the deal with Mephisto, not Parker.

[Token]

@Token: Not really. It just means you might have gotten two more years before Spidey turned into a douche, and if you can blame corporate meddling for Spidey's being killed off you can just as easily assume that same sort of meddling could have resulted in Spidey turning into a douche.

So we could have had at least two more years without this cheap stunt. Wow, I can't see why anyone would possibly be annoyed by this change.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Also strictly speaking MJ made the deal with Mephisto, not Parker.

That's totally true. Except not true in the slightest. Peter made the deal in OMD but then they retconned the retcon in OMIT (get it?!) so that MJ made the deal. It's all a giant ball of stupid shit that keeps me from being able to read mainstream Spider-Man. The only thing I can read post OMD/OMIT is Flash Thompson's series as Venom.

[Marc v4.0]

ITT:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4549162/revenge-of-the-nerds_0.jpg

[Nique]

It seems like everyone could agree that the superficial traits of the character (appearance, race, sexual orientation, favorite tv shows, etc.) being built so as to be inclusive to minorities is a positive thing so long as the writers use them to effectively influence the character's personality instead of relying on meaningless stereotypes to characterize him, which is what it sounds like Jagos was on about though I'm not sure.

Like, it's actually true to the spirit of Spider-Man for the character to be someone who might face adversity or bullying becuase of his appearance or interests - Peter Parker was bullied for being a nerd in highschool. Miles might have to deal with similar, albeit more serious, forms of rejection or conflict for being a mixed-race youth. That actually sounds pretty compelling, a like a story that a lot of people could relate to.

EDIT: And I mean, of course the media is going to talk about this in only the most meaningless terms. I don't think we should be relying on those articles to form any opinions as to how the character is going to be handled.

[Aerozord]

forms of rejection or conflict for being a mixed-race youth. That actually sounds pretty compelling, a like a story that a lot of people could relate to.

I know my school was unusually integrated, but is this really a thing anymore? No one I've ever met in my generation really cares

[Nikose Tyris]

In terms of comics missing the point:
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/08/08/ultimate-spider-man-miles-morales/

[The Sevenshot Kid]

In terms of comics missing the point:
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/08/08/ultimate-spider-man-miles-morales/

That is soooo true.

[Kim]

I know my school was unusually integrated, but is this really a thing anymore? No one I've ever met in my generation really cares

It very much is. Racism is alive and well in the world.

[Nique]

...but is this really a thing anymore?

Yes. It is.

It very much is. Racism is alive and well in the world.

It's nice that there is some level of insulation against such an ugly thing, I just wish it didn't have the side of effect of making some of those of us who have been insulated from it think that legitimate accusations of racism were cases of 'crying wolf'.

[Aerozord]

It's nice that there is some level of insulation against such an ugly thing, I just wish it didn't have the side of effect of making some of those of us who have been insulated from it think that legitimate accusations of racism were cases of 'crying wolf'.

better then the alternative of it being omnipresent. Might be isolated, but it does show progress if we are at the point entire communities view it as an oddity

[Nique]

better then the alternative of it being omnipresent. Might be isolated, but it does show progress if we are at the point entire communities view it as an oddity

It's more complicated than that. I agree that it would be a great thing on a large scale but there are a couple of problems with it's current state.

1)White people are usually protected from first hand experience to the finer details of how racisim effects people, even within diverse communities. As a white person in an extremely liberal city, I have had to go out of my way to understand that not only does racisim still exist, more often in subtle ways, here, but also that racial minorities are still suffering the effects from eras where blatant racism was completely acceptable.

2)Being insulated from horrible things means you are in a bad position to accept their reality. There was a point during WWII where the more horrible of Nazi activities were generally unknown. If they had been known, a lot of suffering could potentially have been avoided.

[Jagos]

It seems like everyone could agree that the superficial traits of the character (appearance, race, sexual orientation, favorite tv shows, etc.) being built so as to be inclusive to minorities is a positive thing so long as the writers use them to effectively influence the character's personality instead of relying on meaningless stereotypes to characterize him, which is what it sounds like Jagos was on about though I'm not sure.


Yep. The characterization is important. Having it shoved in our faces, in an interview, instead of letting us see how the character progresses, seems more like a way to undersell the character and form wrong opinions.

[Aerozord]

yes I see your point but it is an era that must exist. You cant go from intolerance straight to colorblind society. As I said its progress. Sure there are still issues, never said their aren't, but it does show we are moving forward and as long as it keeps moving then its a good thing.

[Nique]

You cant go from intolerance straight to colorblind society. As I said its progress.

No one is saying this so I'm not sure what you mean.

[rpgdemon]

No one is saying this so I'm not sure what you mean.

The way you phrased your post made it sound as if it were worse that there are certain areas that are completely tolerant, when other areas aren't, because that horrible evil thing lead to Nazi Germany becoming what it was.

[Kim]

I'm not sure how saying that the character is in fact a person of color is the same as shoving it in our faces?

And, I mean, if you're going to call Unfortunate Implications, making claims that someone is "shoving it in people's faces" is one of those things with Unfortunate Implications. Just saying.

[Nikose Tyris]

I believe Jagos is citing all the information that was divulged during the interview(s?) instead of letting these things be revealed naturally through the story.

[Kim]

They leaked Spiderman's death before he died, so I just don't feel like them revealing details of upcoming comics in a broad sense and then discussing those decisions is any sort of huge departure that makes this particular example of it horribad.

[Jagos]

And, I mean, if you're going to call Unfortunate Implications, making claims that someone is "shoving it in people's faces" is one of those things with Unfortunate Implications. Just saying.

Because the people that don't endear themselves to Peter Parker's replacement, then making him racially different, is going to make people speaking out against it racist. Yeah...

[Kim]

Because the people that don't endear themselves to Peter Parker's replacement, then making him racially different, is going to make people speaking out against it racist. Yeah...

Okay, now I understand your sentence, but I'm not sure your point?

I guess you're saying "Just because people don't like Parker's replacement who is a person of color doesn't mean they're racist."

1. This doesn't really seem to make sense as a response to what I said so it kinda comes outta left field, which is probably part of why I was so confused.

2. I've never called anyone in this thread racist, I don't think. I made fun of Overcast defending people I viewed as racist, because he was defending them bringing new Spidey's race into their problems with him. I also pointed out a double standard and complained about that, but that was less me being mad at anyone in particular and more me being mad with a double standard I've seen on a number of occasions.

So I'm just not sure what the relevance of this post is, I guess?

[Jagos]

I'm not trying to get into the same argument again. You criticized me for basically saying that the sexuality and race of a character shouldn't be what defines him. I'm leaving it at that, since Token's argument explains a lot better than I care to do right now.

[Kim]

That sure is a mischaracterization of my argument that fails to answer the question I asked and doesn't at all clear up my confusion regarding your post.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Anyone want to talk about any plot threads they might pick up in the new series from the old one or something like that? I'd much rather actually talk about comics then continue to partake in a pointless conversation about the race/controversy over Mile Morales.

So yeah, is there anyone that actually wants to talk about Ultimate Spider-Man?

[POS Industries]

Dude, seriously...

What. The. FLYING. FUCK!? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2021563/Marvel-Comics-reveal-new-Spider-Man-black-gay-future.html)
You're freaking out about an article from a British tabloid? Really?

Really?

In terms of comics missing the point:
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/08/08/ultimate-spider-man-miles-morales/
I disagree.

Yes, it misses a point, that there are people who simply are fans of ultimate Peter Parker and are upset about his being killed and replaced, and the fan outrage from them has nothing to do with Miles' race. However, those people are neither nowhere near the majority of the vocal outcry against this decision nor the loudest voices in it. It's mostly people who've never read Ultimate Spider-Man, much less 616 Amazing Spider-Man for that matter, being mad because they think white Spider-Man is being affirmative actioned out of his job by black Spider-Man. And a half hispanic black Spider-Man, at that!

It's a double "dey tuk er jerbs" attack!

I will, however, note that the comic made a massive error in using the rather unpopular Azrael Batman to make their point, as the more popular Dick Grayson or Terry McGinnis Batmen probably would have worked better.

[Nique]

The way you phrased your post made it sound as if it were worse that there are certain areas that are completely tolerant, when other areas aren't, because that horrible evil thing lead to Nazi Germany becoming what it was.

I guess I can see where you might get that but my analogy of Nazis was not used in that it was to be taken as a comprehensive metaphor for racial issues in America today, but rather to illustrate that being ignorant of [something bad] doesn't help combat [something bad]. And also that ignorance of or insulation against racism =! tolerance, as this is a condition that exists within many predominantly white areas where many people 'don't see what all the fuss is about' and when it comes down to it actually turn out to be pretty racist or at least extremely bigoted.

So yeah, is there anyone that actually wants to talk about Ultimate Spider-Man?

I'm actually kind of kicking myself for not picking up these issues. I thumbed through the issue with Peter's death and found it didn't make much sense as I wasn't really familar with the events that led up to it, but Miles comes in with one of the 'Ultimate Fallout' books that I should check out.

[rpgdemon]

Anyone want to talk about any plot threads they might pick up in the new series from the old one or something like that? I'd much rather actually talk about comics then continue to partake in a pointless conversation about the race/controversy over Mile Morales.

So yeah, is there anyone that actually wants to talk about Ultimate Spider-Man?

Naw man, rather than talking about his characterization and the plotlines and situations that the new Spiderman gets himself into, I want to continue focusing on his race and minority status as the sole thing to discuss about him.

[Premmy]

Just found out about this so I thought I'd post it, something that happened last year, apparently.
http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/78496857769.2.GIF
http://bajolamascara.universomarvel.com/images/2007/06/spideytales21.jpg
http://www.comicsbulletin.com/rage/images/070624/spidermanfairytales00204color72.jpg

[BitVyper]

...is that Ananse? 'Cause that would be fantastic.

[Osterbaum]

I like how he looks so bored looking at the savanna. "Wonderful lanscapes and mighty animals... yawn, what a bore..."

[Premmy]

...is that Ananse? 'Cause that would be fantastic.

Yes it is.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I like how he looks so bored looking at the savanna. "Wonderful lanscapes and mighty animals... yawn, what a bore..."

It'd be pretty boring if you grew up there.

[BitVyper]

I like how he looks so bored looking at the savanna. "Wonderful lanscapes and mighty animals... yawn, what a bore..."

Ananse's boredom is actually part of at least one of his stories

[Premmy]

http://images.wikia.com/dcanimated/images/f/f1/Anansi.jpg
His mortal enemy was a cyborg Jaguar man!

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Wasn't he in Static Shock? I remember because he was especially awesome.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I thought that Static did have his own comic. I don't know if it was a running series though.

[Token]

I'm not sure how saying that the character is in fact a person of color is the same as shoving it in our faces?

And, I mean, if you're going to call Unfortunate Implications, making claims that someone is "shoving it in people's faces" is one of those things with Unfortunate Implications. Just saying.

We've been over this. The media isn't saying "new spider-man." Marvel isn't saying "new spider-man." They're saying "Half-black, half-latino Spider-Man." They aren't saying anything about his character, they're just making a big deal about his race.

[Premmy]

Basically Noncon what's going on here is the instant first response every black man has when another black person is in the news "Pleeeeease don't be something fucked up"
It's just Jagos words shit weird, and then it devolved into this.

[Nikose Tyris]

Static is awesome and I'm fairly certain that he was a background character in Justice League: Crisis of Two Earths.

[Kim]

It's just Jagos words shit weird, and then it devolved into this.

Fair enough. It was just kinda hard to take Jagos point seriously, let alone understand it, when you combine his inability to communicate clearly with a post that reads at first, second, and even third glance as outright anger not that Spiderman is being replaced, not that Peter Parker is dead, but at a possible (if you intentionally misconstrue a quote) trait of that character. That in turn colored my view of all his subsequent posts, which was worsened by that aforementioned terrible wording on his part.

EDIT: I saw a couple eps of Static Shock when I was young. It was indeed awesome.

[Token]

Static is awesome and I'm fairly certain that he was a background character in Justice League: Crisis of Two Earths.

Black Lightning. Similar powers, but a much different personality.

[Premmy]

The number one problem here is Jagos forgot the Cardinal Black man rule to never do black things around black people/While white people can actually talk to you because then you get into the problem of them not being able to get everything you say while you explain it to them and basically Jagos now owes me five bucks for this shit and dammit am I pissed off.

[Premmy]

Black Lightning. Similar powers, but a much different personality.
http://images.wikia.com/dcanimated/images/f/f2/Soulpoweryoung.jpg
no?
wrong guy?
you sure?
Lawyers?
the fuck you mean?
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/img/b/BlackLightning.gif
not this guy?

[Token]

Shit man, that first guy was Soul Power. There are only like a million niggas with electric powers, how are you having trouble with this?

[rpgdemon]

Black Lightning. Similar powers, but a much different personality.

Oh, and no one called -that- comicking decision racist?

[Nique]

The number one problem here is Jagos forgot the Cardinal Black man rule to never do black things around black people/While white people can actually talk to you because then you get into the problem of them not being able to get everything you say while you explain it to them and basically Jagos now owes me five bucks for this shit and dammit am I pissed off.

What?

[Jagos]

Hey, I understood that. It's Jive!

[Premmy]

What?
LOOK WHAT YOU STARTED, JAGOS. LOOK WHAT YOU DID!

[Jagos]

Hey, it was your job to translate that, not recode it!

Cardinal Rule #1 for Black Men: Don't speak Jive unless there's two or more black men in the thread

People won't understand you unless they know the language.

Dangit, Jagos forgot the rule so I have to show what he did!

See?

[POS Industries]

Wait, Jagos is black?

[Jagos]

Wait, Jagos is black?

You have no idea how funny that is to me...

[Premmy]

If we have to spend the rest of this thread explaining black stuff to white people, me and Token are going to kill you.

[Jagos]

Hey, I showed them the pic the ONE time (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1113159&postcount=1456)

I can't believe no one pays attention here!

[POS Industries]

Hey, I showed them the pic the ONE time (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1113159&postcount=1456)

I can't believe no one pays attention here!
See, there's your problem. You posted it as a link, and that's one more step than I'm willing to go to look at some dude's pics.

And in a more immediate sense, taking a Daily Mail article seriously--the premier source of yellow journalism for the elderly, racist, white Briton--gave me an altogether different mental picture here, if I'm going to be honest.

[Jagos]

See, there's your problem. You posted it as a link, and that's one more step than I'm willing to go to look at some dude's pics.

And in a more immediate sense, taking a Daily Mail article seriously--the premier source of yellow journalism for the elderly, racist, white Briton--gave me an altogether different mental picture here, if I'm going to be honest.

I got the link from another black guy. He's in another country.

This probably isn't helping my case for the Black/Latino Spiderman...

[Overcast]

Man you are one polo away from Carlton. Also I loved Static, both the comic and the show. Ain't kept up with him since he got pulled into DC with the Teen Titans.

[Fifthfiend]

Ain't kept up with him since he got pulled into DC with the Teen Titans.

That's for the best.

[Nique]

JAGOS and PREMMY, STOP CHARACTERIZING YOURSELF ONLY BY YOUR RACE IT IS OFFENDING ALL OF MY WHITE GUILT!!!

[The Sevenshot Kid]

JAGOS and PREMMY, STOP CHARACTERIZING YOURSELF ONLY BY YOUR RACE IT IS OFFENDING ALL OF MY WHITE GUILT!!!

Ha, white guilt. I'm Irish and German, my people get to bypass it.

[Fifthfiend]

All anyone says about this new Jagos is that he's black. What's that supposed to be, his only defining trait as a poster?

I'm missing the old Jagos already.

[Magus]

Oh, and no one called -that- comicking decision [Black Lightning] racist?

I still get a kick out of the fact that Black Manta turned out to actually be black:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5a/BlackManta.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/09/Blackmantaunmasked.PNG

The fearsome Black Manta and Aquaman battled repeatedly over the next several years. During one of these clashes,[5] it was revealed that Black Manta was actually an African American, whose stated objective at one point was for black people to be dominant in the ocean after having been oppressed for so long on dry land (though this goal was revealed to be a ruse he used to trick Cal Durham into following him, and this objective was not at all evident in either his earlier or later appearances).

[The Sevenshot Kid]

I still get a kick out of the fact that Black Manta turned out to actually be black:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5a/BlackManta.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/09/Blackmantaunmasked.PNG

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh my god... That gets me every time.

[Aerozord]

Oh, and no one called -that- comicking decision racist?

"Do you think I wanted to be called Black Vulcan? HELL NO, used to be Super Vulcan, Black Vulcan was Aquaman's idea. I told him, how about we call you White Fish"

[Premmy]

I think it's amazing that every black DC character is Luke Cage.

[Krylo]

All anyone says about this new Jagos is that he's black. What's that supposed to be, his only defining trait as a poster?


No, it's just his BEST trait.

[Aerozord]

any minority is tricky to depict. You do not want it to define the character but at the same time ignoring it is just as bad.

Lets remember being white is an aspect of a character too, just since our conception of "normal" is tied to it so we dont give it any thought.

I think best way to go about it is to have it be more about external affects and how they effect his growth and development. For Peter Parker he was a nerd and it definitely affected how he behaved both in and out of the suit. His tendency to quip all the time is a defense mechanism against the insecurities he had developed. He wasn't a walking nerd stereotype, but they didn't act like he wasn't one and wrote him as what one would realistically be like